Discussion:
"What's the matter?" in reported speech
(too old to reply)
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-25 23:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?

(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.

I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)

Thank you.
Horace LaBadie
2019-10-26 01:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
Presumably, he asked what's wrong, rather than what was the matter being
discussed.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-26 03:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
Presumably, he asked what's wrong, rather than what was the matter being
discussed.
Yes, it's the idiomatic sense of "the matter" that I have
in mind. But It is interesting to contrast it with literal usages
such as the one you have just given. In such usage I believe
"was" needs to come after the phrase with "the matter":

(2) He asked me, "What is the matter being discussed?"
(2a) *? He asked me what was the matter being discussed.
(2b) He asked me what the matter being discussed was.

To let my cat out of its bag, the idiomatic sense of
"the matter" seems to have adjectival value, being equivalent
in meaning to "wrong," as you say, and this seems to make it
exceptional in indirect questions, similar to "a piece of cake":

(3) He said, "The exam was a piece of cake," but I didn't hear
him clearly. I asked him to say again what was a piece of cake.

(4) *? He said, "The exam was a piece of cake," but I didn't hear
him clearly. I asked him to say again what a piece of cake was.

While (4) is perfectly grammatical, it reports that the speaker
asked his interlocutor to define a particular kind of dessert, not
to clarify what he found so easy. Consider also that, although we can
say, "Is anything the matter?", we can't say, *"Is anything the problem?"
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-26 14:22:00 UTC
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Yes, it's the idiomatic sense of "the matter" that I have
in mind. But It is interesting to contrast it with literal usages
such as the one you have just given. In such usage I believe
(2) He asked me, "What is the matter being discussed?"
(2a) *? He asked me what was the matter being discussed.
(2b) He asked me what the matter being discussed was.
... what the matter was being discussed. (Doesn't need a pause or a comma,
but does take stress on "was.")
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-26 14:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
Presumably, he asked what's wrong, rather than what was the matter being
discussed.
Is that Pondian? Asking for the topic wouldn't be done with "What's the
matter?" Over Here.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-26 14:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-26 21:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."

To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?

How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-26 21:45:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-27 01:52:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.

"Nothing was the matter." (NOT: "The matter was nothing.")
"Is something the matter?" (NOT: "Is the matter something?")
"Something must be the matter." (NOT: "The matter must be something.")
"There doesn't seem to be anything the matter."
(NOT

But if the idiomatic use of "the matter" always occurs
in the idiomatic chunk "BE the matter," and is always a
subject complement, how can we make sense of the idea that
it should be the grammatical subject of embedded questions.
Do you want to say that the only time the idiom "the matter"
appears as subject is in embedded questions?
Janet
2019-10-27 13:15:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."

Janet
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-27 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
Janet
Interesting. On Google, "What could be the matter?"
has over 8 million hits, whereas "What could the
matter be?" has about 29,000, most of them in reference
to that very stanza of this odd little poem.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-27 16:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Janet
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
Interesting. On Google, "What could be the matter?"
has over 8 million hits, whereas "What could the
matter be?" has about 29,000, most of them in reference
to that very stanza of this odd little poem.
(Which is a parody of an innocent song or nursery rhyme.)
Ken Blake
2019-10-27 17:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Janet
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
Janet
Interesting. On Google, "What could be the matter?"
has over 8 million hits, whereas "What could the
matter be?" has about 29,000, most of them in reference
to that very stanza of this odd little poem.
It's not a poem, it's a song. In the version I know, it's

...
Seven old ladies got locked in the lavatory
They were there from Sunday to Saturday
...


*Seven* old ladies, one for each day of the week. Each subsequent verse
is about one day and one old lady.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-27 19:48:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Janet
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for reasons which I'll keep at
bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said "I sprang from my bed
to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the many other
expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
Janet
Interesting. On Google, "What could be the matter?"
has over 8 million hits, whereas "What could the
matter be?" has about 29,000, most of them in reference
to that very stanza of this odd little poem.
It's not a poem, it's a song. In the version I know, it's
...
Seven old ladies got locked in the lavatory
They were there from Sunday to Saturday
...
*Seven* old ladies, one for each day of the week. Each subsequent verse
is about one day and one old lady.
We've had this discussion before -- not all that long ago. Janet's
version is standard in the UK.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2019-10-27 20:16:28 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
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Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
On Saturday, October 26, 2019 at 2:45:14 PM UTC-7, Peter T.
On Saturday, October 26, 2019 at 5:12:54 PM UTC-4,
On Saturday, October 26, 2019 at 7:19:16 AM UTC-7, Peter T.
On Friday, October 25, 2019 at 7:55:40 PM UTC-4,
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
Post by g***@gmail.com
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for > > >
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
Post by g***@gmail.com
so that I can hear what your answers are first.  :)
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said > > > "I
sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
Post by g***@gmail.com
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts
an accent > > on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was
an idiom > > in 1850.
Post by g***@gmail.com
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the > many
other expressions we have using "the matter," all
Post by g***@gmail.com
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
   "Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
  Janet
Interesting. On Google, "What could be the matter?"
has over 8 million hits, whereas "What could the
matter be?" has about 29,000, most of them in reference
to that very stanza of this odd little poem.
It's not a poem, it's a song. In the version I know, it's
...
Seven old ladies got locked in the lavatory
They were there from Sunday to Saturday
...
*Seven* old ladies, one for each day of the week. Each subsequent verse
is about one day and one old lady.
The original, just in case there's anyone who doesn't know, goes
"Johnny's so long at the fair!"
--
Katy Jennison
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-28 04:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
"And mamma in her 'kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap,
just settled down
Post by g***@gmail.com
When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my bed to see what was the matter."
To be more correct, ought the poet to have said
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matter was"?
In addition to compromising the rhyme, wouldn't
that change also alter the meaning of the sentence?
No. (Note that the reader is helped by the meter, which puts an accent
on "what.")
Post by g***@gmail.com
How does he know that there is a matter to be identified?
(Doesn't he rather wish to identify what is wrong?) If he
suspected multiple things were wrong, could he really say,
"I sprang from my bed to see what the matters were"?
Because "What's the matter?" is an idiom now and clearly was an idiom
in 1850.
"What's the matter?" is a common expression, but is the
idiom really that entire chunk, "What" and all? I think
the idiom may really be "BE the matter" in light of the
many other expressions we have using "the matter," all
of which seem to contain a form of "be" and to feature
"the matter" as a subject complement rather than as subject.
"Oh dear what can the matter be
Three old ladies locked in the lavatory
They've been there from Monday to Saturday
Nobody knew they were there."
Janet
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
My grammatical intuitions are pretty clear-cut:

(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?

(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-29 06:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
Post by g***@gmail.com
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but

(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?

I'd say is borderline acceptable.

Any native speakers around?

/Anders, Denmark-
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 14:38:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-29 18:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but

(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?

I'd say is borderline acceptable.

/Anders, Denmark.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 19:00:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
David Kleinecke
2019-10-29 20:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.

I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech. Rather
What's the matter with it?
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-29 23:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?

(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?

We can also add the Anders-inspired (9c) below. I'm
inclined to give it a hash mark, but, since my intuition
here is not as clear as it is about (9b), I'll refrain.

(9c) What do you suppose the matter is with it?
David Kleinecke
2019-10-30 00:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Post by g***@gmail.com
We can also add the Anders-inspired (9c) below. I'm
inclined to give it a hash mark, but, since my intuition
here is not as clear as it is about (9b), I'll refrain.
(9c) What do you suppose the matter is with it?
I would reject (9c). My feeling is that "the matter with
it" is a single constituent. Call it X
(9a) What do you suppose is X?
(9b) What do you suppose X is?
(9c) What do you suppose is ^ X?
where ^ is inverting juncture (verb-second-like). So I have
(9c) as potentially acceptable but not actually used.

More can be said about inverting juncture. Maybe I will
write a post about it.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-30 00:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Amazing. I find (9b) not only awkward but barely comprehensible,
being caught, as it is, between idiomatic and literal meaning.
Tell me, would you also be inclined to say (10b) instead of (10a)?

(10a) That's what's the matter with it.
(10b) # That's what the matter with it is.
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
We can also add the Anders-inspired (9c) below. I'm
inclined to give it a hash mark, but, since my intuition
here is not as clear as it is about (9b), I'll refrain.
(9c) What do you suppose the matter is with it?
I would reject (9c). My feeling is that "the matter with
it" is a single constituent. Call it X
(9a) What do you suppose is X?
(9b) What do you suppose X is?
(9c) What do you suppose is ^ X?
where ^ is inverting juncture (verb-second-like). So I have
(9c) as potentially acceptable but not actually used.
More can be said about inverting juncture. Maybe I will
write a post about it.
David Kleinecke
2019-10-30 03:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Amazing. I find (9b) not only awkward but barely comprehensible,
being caught, as it is, between idiomatic and literal meaning.
Tell me, would you also be inclined to say (10b) instead of (10a)?
(10a) That's what's the matter with it.
(10b) # That's what the matter with it is.
If you followed me around long enough I think you'd
hear about the same number of each.

(10a) That's what's X.
(10b) That's what X is.

Offhand I would guess that if Q is what the question is
asking for

(10a) Q is X.
(10b) X is Q.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-30 04:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Amazing. I find (9b) not only awkward but barely comprehensible,
being caught, as it is, between idiomatic and literal meaning.
Tell me, would you also be inclined to say (10b) instead of (10a)?
(10a) That's what's the matter with it.
(10b) # That's what the matter with it is.
If you followed me around long enough I think you'd
hear about the same number of each.
(10a) That's what's X.
(10b) That's what X is.
I wonder, though, whether I would hear the same number of
each in the same contexts with a noun phrase like "a bitch"
or "a piece of cake":

(11a) Getting to the finish line in 5 minutes. That's what's a bitch.
(11b) #Getting to the finish line in 5 minutes. That's what a bitch is.

Does (11b) really make sense with the idiomatic meaning of
"a bitch" (namely, "very difficult")? Doesn't "That's what
a bitch is" demand a literal context such as the one below?

(11c) A female dog. That's what a bitch is.
Post by David Kleinecke
Offhand I would guess that if Q is what the question is
asking for
(10a) Q is X.
(10b) X is Q.
A bitch is a female dog.
A female dog is a bitch.

Solving the problem is a bitch.
A bitch is solving the problem. :) !!!
b***@shaw.ca
2019-10-30 06:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by g***@gmail.com
It's interesting, I think to compare the use of
"possibly" and "with"-PPs with "the matter" in
subject position and in subject-complement position.
(6a) What could possibly be the matter?
(6b) # What could the matter possibly be?
If by "#" you mean unacceptable, I don't think so.
It means its acceptability is questionable.
Thank you. Do you have any opinion on the additional example
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(7a) What could be the matter with it?
(7b) # What could the matter with it be?
Agreed, but
(7c) ? What could the matter be with it?
I'd say is borderline acceptable.
(7b) is indeed #, but (7c) is right out. (It gets a *.)
Re Paul Postal: I find (7c) fully acceptable.
I find (7b) fully acceptable too. But I would put a
# on (7a). I find all the "could" constructions
unlikely to occur in my speech.
Usually, such "could"-constructions are used as
rhetorical questions. "What could be the matter
with it?" means "Nothing is the matter with it."
Post by David Kleinecke
Rather
What's the matter with it?
Let's keep that question, then, and add a "push-down"
element to tease apart the deep-structure subject
and subject complement. Which of these do you prefer?
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Amazing. I find (9b) not only awkward but barely comprehensible,
being caught, as it is, between idiomatic and literal meaning.
Tell me, would you also be inclined to say (10b) instead of (10a)?
(10a) That's what's the matter with it.
(10b) # That's what the matter with it is.
If you followed me around long enough I think you'd
hear about the same number of each.
(10a) That's what's X.
(10b) That's what X is.
If I followed you around and you said (10a) I would hear
"That's what sex", at least the first time around.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 13:28:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by g***@gmail.com
(9a) What do you suppose is the matter with it?
(9b) # What do you suppose the matter with it is?
I find these equal and interchangeable although I suspect
! would usually say (9b)
Amazing. I find (9b) not only awkward but barely comprehensible,
IIRC Jim McCawley's siglum for that was *? or ?*. Mind you this was
47 years ago, and I was intimidated by Jim's renown so I took Noriko
McCawley (now Noriko Akatsuka)'s section of Intro Syntax (I hated
Syntax); he became a friend later because of music, food, and eventually
writing systems. They claimed my cat impregnated their cat, but according
to the neighborhood veterinarian who had performed a procedure, that was
impossible.
Post by g***@gmail.com
being caught, as it is, between idiomatic and literal meaning.
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-28 19:40:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
What if we throw in a raising-verb construction to spice things up?

(8a) He asked me what seemed to be the matter.
(8b) # He asked me what the matter seemed to be.

If we say that (8b) is more "grammatical," doesn't that imply that
(8b') is more grammatical than (8a')? Would we want to say that?

(8a') He asked me, "What seems to be the matter?"
(8b') # He asked me, "What does the matter seem to be?"

The reason for this variation is that "What is the matter?" is
syntactically ambiguous as to whether "what" or "the matter" is subject.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-28 21:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
What if we throw in a raising-verb construction to spice things up?
(8a) He asked me what seemed to be the matter.
(8b) # He asked me what the matter seemed to be.
If we say that (8b) is more "grammatical," doesn't that imply that
(8b') is more grammatical than (8a')? Would we want to say that?
Does it?
Post by g***@gmail.com
(8a') He asked me, "What seems to be the matter?"
(8b') # He asked me, "What does the matter seem to be?"
The reason for this variation is that "What is the matter?" is
syntactically ambiguous as to whether "what" or "the matter" is subject.
The (b) versions are strange because when you de-idiomatized the phrase,
you forced "matter" to be taken literally, where it doesn't make much sense.

Did you learn to do syntax from Paul Postal?
g***@gmail.com
2019-10-29 04:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
What if we throw in a raising-verb construction to spice things up?
(8a) He asked me what seemed to be the matter.
(8b) # He asked me what the matter seemed to be.
If we say that (8b) is more "grammatical," doesn't that imply that
(8b') is more grammatical than (8a')? Would we want to say that?
Does it?
Post by g***@gmail.com
(8a') He asked me, "What seems to be the matter?"
(8b') # He asked me, "What does the matter seem to be?"
The reason for this variation is that "What is the matter?" is
syntactically ambiguous as to whether "what" or "the matter" is subject.
The (b) versions are strange because when you de-idiomatized the phrase,
you forced "matter" to be taken literally, where it doesn't make much sense.
I think it is having "the matter" in subject position, where it
is unambiguously in subject position, that de-idiomatizes the
phrase. In "What's the matter?," the noun phrase "the matter"
could be either in subject position or in subject complement
position in deep structure.

In "He asked me what the matter was", the noun phrase "the matter"
is unambiguously in subject position. I maintain that that is why
"He asked me what the matter was" sounds much worse than "He asked
me what was the matter," in which "the matter" is unambiguously in
subject-complement position.

We get the same sort of contrast when we use "seem" in the root
question. Unlike in "What's the matter?," in "What seems to be the
matter?" the noun phrase "the matter" is unambiguously the subject
complement, and that's why it sounds fine. But in "What does the
matter seem to be?," it is unambiguously the subject instead, and
that's why it sounds bad.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Did you learn to do syntax from Paul Postal?
No, but I did learn syntax from someone who co-authored some articles
with Paul Postal the 1970s. Out of respect, I'd prefer not to say who.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 14:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Did you learn to do syntax from Paul Postal?
No, but I did learn syntax from someone who co-authored some articles
with Paul Postal the 1970s. Out of respect, I'd prefer not to say who.
Perlmutter?

Katz?

I first encountered Paul Postal at Chicago Linguistic Society meetings in
the early 1970s. He was a Mephistophelian figure (slender, goateed, dressed
in black), employed by IBM. I next encountered him decades later, when as
an NYU professor he introduced a talk by Jerrold Katz. He was no longer a
Mephistophelian figure! I don't remember what Katz talked about, but there
was occasion to mention in the question period Jim McCawley's invited LACUS
talk in Chicago (1993, I think) where he talked about studying variation in
grammaticality judgments. Both Katz & Postal denied that such a thing was
even possible -- after decades of (at least Postal) publishing articles
with asterisks assigned to examples in what seemed to be ways to make his
current theory come out right, with no regard for what actual native
speakers thought of the examples.
David Kleinecke
2019-10-29 01:35:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by g***@gmail.com
Is it better to report (1) using (1a) or (1b)?
(1) He asked me, "What's the matter?"
(1a) He asked me what was the matter.
(1b) He asked me what the matter was.
I maintain that (1a) is the better way, for
reasons which I'll keep at bay in this opening post,
so that I can hear what your answers are first. :)
Thank you.
(1b) is more "grammatical," (1a) is more common.
What if we throw in a raising-verb construction to spice things up?
(8a) He asked me what seemed to be the matter.
(8b) # He asked me what the matter seemed to be.
If we say that (8b) is more "grammatical," doesn't that imply that
(8b') is more grammatical than (8a')? Would we want to say that?
(8a') He asked me, "What seems to be the matter?"
(8b') # He asked me, "What does the matter seem to be?"
The reason for this variation is that "What is the matter?" is
syntactically ambiguous as to whether "what" or "the matter" is subject.
He asked me what was going on.
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