Discussion:
Gin
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Mack A. Damia
2020-02-13 17:56:39 UTC
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"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."

"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Paul Carmichael
2020-02-13 18:12:08 UTC
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Permalink
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-13 21:46:01 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.

Also, I keep a jar of dried juniper berries in the cupboard. A handful
of them cooked in the right stir-fry makes for excellent flavour bombs.

bill


bill
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 22:12:11 UTC
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Permalink
...
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Just the gin and beer (do I hear Tommy Atkins somewhere?) sounds like
a lot at once to this non-drinker.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Also, I keep a jar of dried juniper berries in the cupboard. A handful
of them cooked in the right stir-fry makes for excellent flavour bombs.
I tried that the other night in my reheated pork and sauerkraut. They
gave the sauerkraut a nice tinge, but as flavor bombs they were too
explosive for me. These were berries from native junipers
(/J. monosperma/) picked that morning, not commercial juniper berries.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-13 22:31:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Just the gin and beer (do I hear Tommy Atkins somewhere?) sounds like
a lot at once to this non-drinker.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Also, I keep a jar of dried juniper berries in the cupboard. A handful
of them cooked in the right stir-fry makes for excellent flavour bombs.
I tried that the other night in my reheated pork and sauerkraut. They
gave the sauerkraut a nice tinge, but as flavor bombs they were too
explosive for me. These were berries from native junipers
(/J. monosperma/) picked that morning, not commercial juniper berries.
Eh, you are not supposed to eat them,
they are just for adding flavour,

Jan
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-14 00:27:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Just the gin and beer (do I hear Tommy Atkins somewhere?) sounds like
a lot at once to this non-drinker.
It takes me at least an hour to go through a shot glass of chilled
gin and a beer, and usually there is no second round, so it's not as
deadly as it might sound.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Also, I keep a jar of dried juniper berries in the cupboard. A handful
of them cooked in the right stir-fry makes for excellent flavour bombs.
I tried that the other night in my reheated pork and sauerkraut. They
gave the sauerkraut a nice tinge, but as flavor bombs they were too
explosive for me. These were berries from native junipers
(/J. monosperma/) picked that morning, not commercial juniper berries.
I haven't tasted them fresh. And, as J.J. indicates, most people
who cook with them don't eat them. I'm fond of (some) assertive
flavours, and I like crunchy dried juniper berries once they've been
cooked and have mingled with whatever the main dish is.

bill
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-14 00:35:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:12:11 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Just the gin and beer (do I hear Tommy Atkins somewhere?) sounds like
a lot at once to this non-drinker.
Gunga Din.

"You may talk o' gin and beer.
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,.
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Also, I keep a jar of dried juniper berries in the cupboard. A handful
of them cooked in the right stir-fry makes for excellent flavour bombs.
I tried that the other night in my reheated pork and sauerkraut. They
gave the sauerkraut a nice tinge, but as flavor bombs they were too
explosive for me. These were berries from native junipers
(/J. monosperma/) picked that morning, not commercial juniper berries.
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-13 22:26:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
"The truth is I don't have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I'm concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It's today's artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.

It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.

Jan
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-13 23:52:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Paul Carmichael
"The truth is I don't have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I'm concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It's today's artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
I love gin but it's not reciprocal.
I like a chilled Dutch genever gin, neat with a crisp lager on the side.
Also a dry martini with a decent English gin, or a G&T. Not all at
once, of course.
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
But the redundancy is useful for readers who don't know jenever.
Post by J. J. Lodder
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
Well, that would be me. I don't drink it often, but it reminds
me of Saturday evenings with family at the kitchen table, going
back to the 1950s and '60s.

bill
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-14 20:39:40 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-15 11:27:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.

It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Many traditional ones specify Dutch genever, or curacao
as an ingredient, so a lot of their output disappears there.

ObAUE, Bols has decided to change the spelling of their product
from modern 'jenever' back to old form 'genever',
so the English who never changed their spelling are correct again,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-15 15:54:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
"Sells for" isn't the right word. ("It sells for 30E a bottle.")
You may mean it "nets" (profit) or "grosses" (the take, before
expenses) only N euros.
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 16:27:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.

If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.

Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.

An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
--
Ken
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-15 20:26:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
what they're up to:

<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>

I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.

bill
musika
2020-02-15 21:28:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'. It is
not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'. It is
drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at
Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high. The oldest and best known brand,
Lucas Bols, sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their
products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch
whisky, gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with
added soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the
trouble of making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is
easy to make). I like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no
vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford to
pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections now
and then. This short article will give you a sense of what they're up
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous
bartenders/ cocktail mixers.
And, nowadays, mocktails.
--
Ray
UK
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 21:41:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
--
Ken
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-15 22:19:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-s
cene/>
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
It was about where a lot of the 'genever' goes to,

Jan
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 23:13:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-s
cene/>
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
It was about where a lot of the 'genever' goes to,
The thread was, but the sentence I replied to was "It also helps them a
lot that Americans are crazy about mixing cocktails."

The reason I replied was that, as far as I know, Americans are *not*
crazy about mixing cocktails.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-16 21:48:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
The thread was, but the sentence I replied to was "It also helps them a
lot that Americans are crazy about mixing cocktails."
The reason I replied was that,  as far as I know, Americans are *not*
crazy about mixing cocktails.
It all depends on who gets to define sanity in the field of mixed
drinks. Or even (as Tony pointed out) what defines a cocktail.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-17 09:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktai
l-s
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
cene/>
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
It was about where a lot of the 'genever' goes to,
The thread was, but the sentence I replied to was "It also helps them a
lot that Americans are crazy about mixing cocktails."
The reason I replied was that, as far as I know, Americans are *not*
crazy about mixing cocktails.
They'll even drink screwdrivers,

Jan
--
I'm sorry Sir, we are fresh out of screwdrivers. (Basil Fawlty)
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 23:27:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?

But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.

How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-15 23:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
The dictionary definition of a cocktail is a mix of one or more
spirits with other ingredients. That's wide open, but I believe
very few people would consider a highball -- a shot of liquor
mixed with tonic, ginger ale or whatever, and perhaps ice --
to be a cocktail. The choice of shape of glass might also
be a factor.

bill
Tony Cooper
2020-02-16 00:07:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
The dictionary definition of a cocktail is a mix of one or more
spirits with other ingredients. That's wide open, but I believe
very few people would consider a highball -- a shot of liquor
mixed with tonic, ginger ale or whatever, and perhaps ice --
to be a cocktail. The choice of shape of glass might also
be a factor.
Now I wonder where the word "highball" came from.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 16:09:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
ocktail?
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by b***@shaw.ca
The dictionary definition of a cocktail is a mix of one or more
spirits with other ingredients. That's wide open, but I believe
very few people would consider a highball -- a shot of liquor
mixed with tonic, ginger ale or whatever, and perhaps ice --
to be a cocktail. The choice of shape of glass might also
be a factor.
Now I wonder where the word "highball" came from.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says

"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'. Alternatively, the name
may have come from early railroad signals with raised globes meaning
'clear track ahead.' "

But note the words "may" and "alternatively."
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2020-02-16 21:02:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.

I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
--
Mark Brader | "All I had to do was act important, and I can
Toronto | do that in my sleep. In fact, I do."
***@vex.net | --Bennie Rosato (Lisa Scottoline, "Feared")
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 22:08:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
--
Ken
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-16 22:39:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
How about a steam pressure gauge?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Tony Cooper
2020-02-16 23:20:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 22:39:48 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
How about a steam pressure gauge?
Back in the day, some automobiles had a radiator cap that indicated
the temperature of the water in the radiator. That was before
temperature gauges were on the dashboard.

The ones prized by collectors of vintage automobile parts are the
Boyce Motometers. Like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rolls-Royce-Black-Boyce-Senior-Motometer-3-3-8-Dogbone-Radiator-Cap-Chrome-/352090204294

The glass tube functioned like a mercury oral thermometer and became
red when the temperature rose. No ball.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 23:43:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
How about a steam pressure gauge?
Nope. I know next to nothing about locomotives.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2020-02-17 00:54:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
You have already forgotten the text you reqquoted above?

For most of the steam era a circular gauge was used:

Loading Image...

(That one would be reading in pounds per square inch.)

Some early locomotives may instead have used a form of manometer where
the pressure was read by the level of liquid in a tube. But balls,
I don't think so.
--
Mark Brader | "...it's always easier to see the mud when it's
Toronto | coming toward your side rather than from your side."
***@vex.net | --Mike Kruger

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Ken Blake
2020-02-17 02:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
You have already forgotten the text you reqquoted above?
...other than that, of course.
Post by Mark Brader
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YuknghzBYCg/maxresdefault.jpg
(That one would be reading in pounds per square inch.)
Some early locomotives may instead have used a form of manometer where
the pressure was read by the level of liquid in a tube. But balls,
I don't think so.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2020-02-17 03:06:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
You have already forgotten the text you reqquoted above?
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YuknghzBYCg/maxresdefault.jpg
(That one would be reading in pounds per square inch.)
Some early locomotives may instead have used a form of manometer where
the pressure was read by the level of liquid in a tube. But balls,
I don't think so.
I have a mental image of a boiler with a pipe that has a spherical
chamber along its length, and some kind of indicator on that
chamber...attempts to clarify the image further tend to bring up
cartoons and old silent-movie comedies, so it may have been a stereotype
of what such machinery looked like rather than any actual device....

Balls *within* a measuring device suggest the tube used to check the mix
of ingredients in engine coolant...the number of little balls floating
indicated the reading....r
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-17 09:32:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
And I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator.
It was an essential component.
When a train halted at a station
the boiler pressure would begin to rise.
The engineer would watch it rise,
and he would try to have the boiler at max pressure
when the train was due to leave again.
If he misjudged it the safety valve would blow,
and he would have wasted coal,
and he would have more trouble in bringing the train up to speed again,
so he would also have wasted time,

Jan
Tony Cooper
2020-02-16 23:33:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall glasses,
or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives, where the
engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed boiler pressure
was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
I am somewhat surprised that - given your interest in railroading -
that you did not bring up the railroad usage of "highball".

"Railroads have used Highball for years to mean "Take off" or "Go
fast" or "Track open ahead". Before the days of hand-held radios,
every railroad yard had a tall pole with a rope attached, like the
configuration used to raise a flag. When the track was clear, or it
was time to move on, they would raise a large red "ball", therefore,
'high ball'."

That is from
https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/59/messages/1029.html

That page also says " When the word "highball" appeared in 1898
("ball" was a bartenders' slang for a glass in the 1890s, a "high
ball," a tall glass) it meant a Scotch and soda".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2020-02-17 00:55:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator that
used a "ball".
I am somewhat surprised that - given your interest in railroading -
that you did not bring up the railroad usage of "highball".
"Railroads have used Highball for years to mean "Take off" or "Go
fast" or "Track open ahead"...
Another part of the text Ken quoted mentioned that.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Don't let it drive you crazy...
***@vex.net | Leave the driving to us!" --Wayne & Shuster
CDB
2020-02-16 23:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highball. which says
"The name may refer to the practice of serving drinks in tall
glasses, or the dining cars of trains powered by steam locomotives,
where the engine would get up to speed and the ball that showed
boiler pressure was at its high level, known as 'highballing'....
Yes, well, sometimes Wikipedia is worth what you paid for it.
I have never heard of a steam-locomotive boiler-pressure indicator
that used a "ball".
The online etymdic says that "ball" was once used to mean "'drink of
whiskey'". I have looked around a bit, but can't find it anywhere else.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/highball
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-16 21:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
--
Sam Plusnet
HVS
2020-02-16 23:24:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
Quite probably.

In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".

(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")

Is that term widespread, or local?

Cheers, Harvey
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 23:45:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would
call a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail
because
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
Quite probably.
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
If I heard that, I would think someone was mispronouncing "shot."
--
Ken
HVS
2020-02-16 23:50:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
-snip -
Post by Ken Blake
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
If I heard that, I would think someone was mispronouncing "shot."
I wondered about that, but while the people here are non-rhotic,
there's still a pronunciation difference between the two words.

Cheers, Harvey
Paul Wolff
2020-02-16 23:56:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would
call a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail
because
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
Quite probably.
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
If I heard that, I would think someone was mispronouncing "shot."
My familiar horizons don't stretch past southern England, but it's
widespread here, I think.

Who here knows what a "chaser" is? I've heard it used both ways around -
long after short, and short after long.
--
Paul
Katy Jennison
2020-02-17 07:47:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway?  I would
call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
with two ingredients.  A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters.  But it is usually served with cherry.  Is a cocktail
because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker?  Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm.  Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
 Quite probably.
 In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
 (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
 Is that term widespread, or local?
If I heard that, I would think someone was mispronouncing "shot."
My familiar horizons don't stretch past southern England, but it's
widespread here, I think.
I'd say the same, except that I don't remember having heard it for
years. But I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it if I had, so
maybe I have and didn't notice.
Post by Paul Wolff
Who here knows what a "chaser" is? I've heard it used both ways around -
long after short, and short after long.
That's perfectly familiar too, in both directions.
--
Katy Jennison
Lewis
2020-02-18 00:01:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway?  I would
call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
with two ingredients.  A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters.  But it is usually served with cherry.  Is a cocktail
because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker?  Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm.  Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
 Quite probably.
 In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
 (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
 Is that term widespread, or local?
If I heard that, I would think someone was mispronouncing "shot."
And I thought a short was a half-pint.
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Paul Wolff
My familiar horizons don't stretch past southern England, but it's
widespread here, I think.
I'd say the same, except that I don't remember having heard it for
years. But I probably wouldn't have thought anything of it if I had, so
maybe I have and didn't notice.
Post by Paul Wolff
Who here knows what a "chaser" is? I've heard it used both ways around -
long after short, and short after long.
That's perfectly familiar too, in both directions.
A chaser is a shot or liquor that you have after the other drink
(usually a beer, isn't it?), at leas that's what I thought it is.

Bar lingo is mostly foreign to me, as I was never much of a drinker in
my youth and never much liked bars. I mean, I have a regular now and I
am defined there ever Tuesday having a couple of gin & tonics, but I
am old now and still not really learning the jargon. The bartender knows
my order, and has a heavy hand, so what's to know?
--
"Everyone has a photographic Memory, some just don't have film."
~Steven Wright
Ross
2020-02-17 04:39:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would
call a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail
because
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
Quite probably.
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
Cheers, Harvey
"We were drinking shorts."
Heard about 40 years ago, from an English woman. It stuck in my mind
because I had no idea what it meant, and she explained it meant
drinks of spirits rather than beer or wine.

Turns out to be fairly old. OED:

short, n. (also something short, short drink)

1823 P. Egan Grose's Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue (rev. ed.)
Short, a dram unlengthened by water. ‘I'll take a drop of short.’

1953 Word for Word (Whitbread & Co.) 32/1 Short, a colloquial name
for a gin or whisky drink, usually taken before a meal.

Green has short,n. for small amounts of drugs, a cigarette butt, etc.
and seemingly uniquely: will you short? (Aus.), meaning "will you have
a drink of spirits?" (1909 J. Ware Passing Eng. of the Victorian Era).
Quinn C
2020-02-17 22:59:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
"We were drinking shorts."
Heard about 40 years ago, from an English woman. It stuck in my mind
because I had no idea what it meant, and she explained it meant
drinks of spirits rather than beer or wine.
short, n. (also something short, short drink)
1823 P. Egan Grose's Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue (rev. ed.)
Short, a dram unlengthened by water. ‘I'll take a drop of short.’
1953 Word for Word (Whitbread & Co.) 32/1 Short, a colloquial name
for a gin or whisky drink, usually taken before a meal.
Green has short,n. for small amounts of drugs, a cigarette butt, etc.
and seemingly uniquely: will you short? (Aus.), meaning "will you have
a drink of spirits?" (1909 J. Ware Passing Eng. of the Victorian Era).
Ein Bier und ein Kurzer ("a beer and a short") is a standard way to
order in German. I've rarely heard "short" outside of this combo, a type
of <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilermaker_(beer_cocktail)>, but my
experience with drinking customs is limited.
--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-17 12:44:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would
call a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic
drink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and
it has
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail
because
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served
with a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
How about a shaker? Is being made in a shaker what makes it a
cocktail?
Hmm. Have we passed this way before?
It rings a faint bell.
Quite probably.
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short".
(As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a short?")
Is that term widespread, or local?
Cheers, Harvey
It's widespread enough to appear in adictionary without any mention of
geographical area other than "British".
https://www.lexico.com/definition/short

noun

1 British A drink of spirits served in a small measure.

The OED has for the noun "short":
'something short', 'short drink' at sense A. 14a (see A. 14a).

1823 P. Egan Grose's Classical Dict. Vulgar Tongue (rev. ed.)
Short, a dram unlengthened by water. ‘I'll take a drop of short.’
1851 H. Mayhew London Labour I. 52/2 Saveloys, with a pint of
beer, or a glass of ‘short’ (neat gin) is with them another common
week-day dinner.
....
1953 Word for Word (Whitbread & Co.) 32/1 Short, a colloquial
name for a gin or whisky drink, usually taken before a meal.
....

The adj. sense:

14. colloquial.
a. 'something short': undiluted spirits. 'short drink': a small
measure of liquor; a drink which is relatively strong in alcohol
and hence drunk in small measures; a dram of spirits or the like.
Perhaps originally from having a short name: e.g. ‘brandy’, not
‘brandy and water’.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2020-02-18 08:36:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short". (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a
short?") Is that term widespread, or local?
I was going to say it was unknown to me, and then a memory popped up.
The last time I ordered a gin and tonic (something I rarely drink), I
was asked whether I wanted it long or short. The difference, fairly
obviously, was in the size of the glass, and therefore the amount of
tonic water that was added.

The amount of gin was the same in both cases.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2020-02-18 15:49:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short". (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a
short?") Is that term widespread, or local?
I was going to say it was unknown to me, and then a memory popped up.
The last time I ordered a gin and tonic (something I rarely drink), I
was asked whether I wanted it long or short. The difference, fairly
obviously, was in the size of the glass, and therefore the amount of
tonic water that was added.
The amount of gin was the same in both cases.
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-18 16:38:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short". (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a
short?") Is that term widespread, or local?
I was going to say it was unknown to me, and then a memory popped up.
The last time I ordered a gin and tonic (something I rarely drink), I
was asked whether I wanted it long or short. The difference, fairly
obviously, was in the size of the glass, and therefore the amount of
tonic water that was added.
The amount of gin was the same in both cases.
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass
with nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of
tonic. I had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how
much I added.
That's how it has come when I've asked for a gin and tonic on a flight,
except that it's a mall can of tonic rather than a mall bottle of tonic.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2020-02-18 16:57:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by HVS
In the social club that I frequent (southern England), the term for a
shot of spirits - gin/whisky/rum/bourbon, with a mixer if desired -
is a "short". (As in "Are you having another pint, or do you want a
short?") Is that term widespread, or local?
I was going to say it was unknown to me, and then a memory popped up.
The last time I ordered a gin and tonic (something I rarely drink), I
was asked whether I wanted it long or short. The difference, fairly
obviously, was in the size of the glass, and therefore the amount of
tonic water that was added.
The amount of gin was the same in both cases.
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass
with nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of
tonic. I had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how
much I added.
That's how it has come when I've asked for a gin and tonic on a flight,
except that it's a mall can of tonic rather than a mall bottle of tonic.
Sorry for the typo. Should be "small" of course.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2020-02-19 07:42:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass
with nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of
tonic. I had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how
much I added.
That's how it has come when I've asked for a gin and tonic on a flight,
except that it's a mall can of tonic rather than a mall bottle of tonic.
Sorry for the typo. Should be "small" of course.
Just as well...malls are *so* 1986!...r
Lewis
2020-02-18 17:32:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
--
"If this was a dictatorship it would be a lot easier; as long as I
was the dictator." -- George W Bush "Hold my beer" -- Donald
Trump
Phil Hobbs
2020-02-19 01:20:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Lewis
2020-02-19 04:23:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
--
Here are people who know that there is no steel, only the idea of
steel. Footnote: But they still use forks, or, at least, the idea
of forks. There may, as the philosopher says, be no spoon,
although this begs the question of why there is the idea of soup.
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-19 06:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
Quite right. The lime or lemon wedge is as far as we go.

On a related topic, how do we like our martinis?

bill
Lewis
2020-02-19 16:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
Quite right. The lime or lemon wedge is as far as we go.
On a related topic, how do we like our martinis?
Dry, with two olives.
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
(sung) "I think so, Brain, but just how will we get the weasel to
hold still?"
Tony Cooper
2020-02-19 17:20:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:34:47 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
Quite right. The lime or lemon wedge is as far as we go.
On a related topic, how do we like our martinis?
Dry, with two olives.
In my case, in front of some other drinker. The only form of gin that
I favor is the card game.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-19 17:07:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
Quite right. The lime or lemon wedge is as far as we go.
On a related topic, how do we like our martinis?
With vodka. Shaken and not shtirred.
Katy Jennison
2020-02-19 17:10:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Lewis
Post by Ken Blake
I have several time ordered a gin and tonic and gotten a tall glass with
nothing but ice and gin in it, accompanied by a mall bottle of tonic. I
had to add the tonic myself, and it was my choice as to how much I added.
That seems downright lazy. What about the lime wedge?
And the little umbrella!
In a G&T? This is not some froufrou rum and juice drink!
Quite right. The lime or lemon wedge is as far as we go.
On a related topic, how do we like our martinis?
With vodka. Shaken and not shtirred.
It's not so much martini with vodka as the other way round.
--
Katy Jennison
Ken Blake
2020-02-17 15:24:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
--
Ken
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-17 17:22:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
Where did you get that idea from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cocktails

To me, a cocktail is more of an "event" as in an"appetizer".
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-17 18:13:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.

What could be the problem?

Jan
Peter Young
2020-02-17 19:11:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-18 19:10:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.
Yes, but how did those dinos do it?

Jan
Peter Moylan
2020-02-19 00:55:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.
Yes, but how did those dinos do it?
That's why they needed an extra brain at the nether end.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2020-02-19 02:46:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Young
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.
Yes, but how did those dinos do it?
That's why they needed an extra brain at the nether end.
As do we ...

<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-feelings-the-second-brain-in-our-gastrointestinal-systems-excerpt/>
--
Motives? Who cares for motives? Humans, perhaps.
-- Klingon Ambassador Kell
RH Draney
2020-02-19 07:42:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.
Yes, but how did those dinos do it?
Someone had to put 'em up to it....r
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-19 10:24:20 UTC
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Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Young
Post by J. J. Lodder
Sure, a highball comes in a highball glass,
a cocktail in a cocktail glass.
And of course a male giraffe has highballs.
Yes, but how did those dinos do it?
Someone had to put 'em up to it....r
Pssst! Don't tell those creationists,

Jan
Lewis
2020-02-18 00:10:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Ah, Dutch 'jenever/genever' is just that, 'jenever'.
It is not 'genever gin'.
It may surprise you, but Dutch 'jenever' is 'out'.
It is drunk mostly by dementing oldsters.
I wonder what proportion of the total output is sold at Schiphol airport?
No idea, but it must be high.
The oldest and best known brand, Lucas Bols,
sells for only 90 million euro/year, for all their products.
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy
about mixing cocktails.
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my experience
at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other spirits
to the ones I like.
An occasional person I know will make a highball--spirits with added
soda, ginger ale, tonic, etc.--but very few people go the trouble of
making a cocktail (except perhaps a martini, which is easy to make). I
like my martinis *very* dry, so I add no vermouth--just straight gin.
For about a decade or a little more, Vancouver has had a cocktail
subculture that engages people much younger than me who can afford
to pay bar prices for fancy concoctions. I've never taken part in it,
but it is discussed in local newspapers' entertainment sections
now and then. This short article will give you a sense of
<https://www.tourismvancouver.com/activities/nightlife/vancouvers-cocktail-scene/>
I doubt that Vancouver is the only place where younger people
socialize over cocktails in trendy bars with locally famous bartenders/
cocktail mixers.
OK, but you're talking about bars. the message I replied to wasn't about
drinking in bars; it was about *mixing* cocktails. Mixing cocktails is
generally a lot of trouble, and that's why my experience is that most
people don't do a lot of mixing themselves.
What fits in the definition of a "cocktail", anyway? I would call a
"bourbon and branch" a "mixed drink" as I would any alcoholic drink
with two ingredients. A Rob Roy is listed as a "cocktail", and it has
three ingredients: Scotch, Sweet Vermouth, and dashes of Angostura
Bitters. But it is usually served with cherry. Is a cocktail because
of the number of ingredients or because it is normally served with a
garnish?
But then we have a Gin and Tonic - two ingredients - but usually
served with a wedge of lemon or lime.
To me, a gin and tonic is a highball, not a cocktail. It's almost
exactly like a scotch and soda, except that what the two ingredients are
has changed.
To me a highball is a glass.

There are many different cocktails that go into many different glasses.
An old-fashioned is both a glass and a cocktail, but the glass may be
used for other drinks.

A cocktail is any drink that has liquor and non-liquor ingredients.

Mixed drink is another way of saying cocktail, though it is not used for
cocktails that are not shaken or stirred (so, a layered drink is a
cocktail, but not usually a mixed drink). It is also more usually used
for simpler cocktails.

Is a gin and tonic a cocktail? Absolutely. Is it a mixed drink? Yes, Is
it a highball? Evidently, but that use is odd to me.
--
Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.
Peter Moylan
2020-02-16 00:11:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 13:55:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
Blake seems to have been misled by the non-native speaker's use of
"mixing cocktails" instead of "mixed drinks." He interpreted that
as claiming that "Americans" enjoy "playing bartender" in their
"home bars." Pop culture of the 1950s, or at least magazine advertising,
or maybe "the Playboy lifestyle," suggests that that was once
a popular party activity, but it's unlikely that that's what JJ
had in mind; he may merely have been trying to contrast "decadent"
Americans with "sensible" Europeans who prefer their liquor straight.
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 16:06:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2020-02-17 22:59:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
I don't think "being crazy about mixing cocktails" refers exclusively to
the act of mixing. I just understood it as expressing a relative
predilection for mixed - as opposed to straight - drinks.

I have no opinion whether it is true in that reading.
--
... speaking the right words might not make you a good person,
but the wrong ones have real and destructive consequences.
-- Philip Sayers, The Walrus, Jan. 2020
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-18 14:10:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
I don't think "being crazy about mixing cocktails" refers exclusively to
the act of mixing. I just understood it as expressing a relative
predilection for mixed - as opposed to straight - drinks.
But "mixing cocktails" isn't a synonym for "mixed drinks." Nor is even
*"mixed cocktails."
Post by Quinn C
I have no opinion whether it is true in that reading.
Things like Martinis and Cosmos seem to continue to be popular. There
have been what might be called "lifestyle" hosts on WNYC who all too
often devote a segment to discussing the latest cocktails with famed
mixologists (mixologists wouldn't be famed if there weren't a market
for mixed drinks). Most recently, someone was discussing the drinks
he'd invented for the Super Bowl -- one for each team, somehow incor-
porating ingredients appropriate to their two cities.
Quinn C
2020-02-18 18:39:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
I don't think "being crazy about mixing cocktails" refers exclusively to
the act of mixing. I just understood it as expressing a relative
predilection for mixed - as opposed to straight - drinks.
But "mixing cocktails" isn't a synonym for "mixed drinks." Nor is even
*"mixed cocktails."
They're not synonyms, but one doesn't exist without the other, so they
can describe the same overall situation.
--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-18 19:37:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
I don't think "being crazy about mixing cocktails" refers exclusively to
the act of mixing. I just understood it as expressing a relative
predilection for mixed - as opposed to straight - drinks.
But "mixing cocktails" isn't a synonym for "mixed drinks." Nor is even
*"mixed cocktails."
They're not synonyms, but one doesn't exist without the other, so they
can describe the same overall situation.
Only if "cocktails" = "drinks"?

Since it's a thread on gin, one has sometimes heard [construction
approved by Curme] that shaking one's Martini "bruises the gin."

What on earth does "bruise the gin" mean?
Phil Hobbs
2020-02-19 01:21:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
I don't think "being crazy about mixing cocktails" refers exclusively to
the act of mixing. I just understood it as expressing a relative
predilection for mixed - as opposed to straight - drinks.
But "mixing cocktails" isn't a synonym for "mixed drinks." Nor is even
*"mixed cocktails."
They're not synonyms, but one doesn't exist without the other, so they
can describe the same overall situation.
And then there's "mixing your drinks", which is a tertium quid.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-18 11:40:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Yes, my point exactly.
It matters little to the 'Erven Lucas Bols'
what form their products get consumed in,

Jan
Paul Wolff
2020-02-16 17:02:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, at 11:11:23, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
That's a good description of some women's outfits at Royal Ascot on
Ladies' Day.
--
Paul
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-16 21:50:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, at 11:11:23, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
 gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
That's a good description of some women's outfits at Royal Ascot on
Ladies' Day.
Fascinating!
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-17 10:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Paul Wolff
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, at 11:11:23, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
It also helps them a lot that Americans are crazy about mixing
cocktails.
Although most of the mixing is done by bartenders rather than the drinkers.
Post by Ken Blake
Is that true? I don't know about others here, but it's not my
experience at all.
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch whisky,
 gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
That's a good description of some women's outfits at Royal Ascot on
Ladies' Day.
Fascinating!
You leave our Aida out of it, young man!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-17 14:52:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Paul Wolff
On Sun, 16 Feb 2020, at 11:11:23, Peter Moylan
...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
If I drink spirits, I almost always drink it straight: scotch
whisky,  gin, cognac, or armagnac.
Most people I know do the same, although they may prefer other
spirits to the ones I like.
That's true for all the men I know, but I've met plenty of women who
like expensive complicated mixtures with little umbrellas on them.
That's a good description of some women's outfits at Royal Ascot on
Ladies' Day.
Fascinating!
You leave our Aida out of it, young man!
Why? "She is a very fascinating woman, and he is very fond of
fascinating with her."

Attributed to the later Samuel Butler, but I can't find the original
with Google or GB.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-15 20:29:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
ObAUE, Bols has decided to change the spelling of their product
from modern 'jenever' back to old form 'genever',
so the English who never changed their spelling are correct again,
Shome mishtake shurely!

British spelling, by definition, is always correct.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-15 22:19:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
ObAUE, Bols has decided to change the spelling of their product
from modern 'jenever' back to old form 'genever',
so the English who never changed their spelling are correct again,
Shome mishtake shurely!
British spelling, by definition, is always correct.
Fshure, when they can agree on it,

Jan
pensive hamster
2020-02-13 19:08:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
which various flavourings have been added. As Jay Rayner writes:

"As a man who writes about food and drink I’m meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn’t quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don’t even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."

Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 19:29:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
It hadn't occurred to me that gin could be anything else, but
Wikipedia makes some distinctions.
Post by pensive hamster
"As a man who writes about food and drink I’m meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn’t quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don’t even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
I must agree. I doubt that distilling it yourself makes any difference
to the flavor, but it seems less "artisanal". You probably don't have
to grow the grain yourself, though.
--
Jerry Friredman
charles
2020-02-13 19:31:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don‘t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I‘m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It‘s today‘s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I‘m meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn‘t quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don‘t even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
not vodka but industrial spirit. It's not a new phenomenon. I went round
the Gordon's place in London in the 1960s. That what they did then.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
pensive hamster
2020-02-13 20:21:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don奏 have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I僧 concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It壮 today壮 artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I僧 meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn奏 quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don奏 even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
not vodka but industrial spirit. It's not a new phenomenon. I went round
the Gordon's place in London in the 1960s. That what they did then.
I guess I may have been a little naive. I have seen adverts such as the
following:
-----------------------------------
https://craftgins.co.uk/

Welcome to Craft Gins!

We love gin, especially gins made by passionate and creative people
pursuing their dreams of creating their very own artisan spirits. That’s
why we created Craft Gins – a special place dedicated to these pioneers
and the incredible gins they distil.
-----------------------------------

Note the "incredible gins they *distil*". That website even features
a photo which does look like some kind of small-ish distillery setup:

Loading Image...

Not that I have ever been persuaded to buy any posh gin, other than
one time when I bought a bottle of Bombay Sapphire when it was on
special offer at Sainsbury's.

Wikipedia says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Sapphire
" ... Alcohol brought in from another supplier is evaporated three times
using a carterhead still, and the alcohol vapours are passed through a
mesh/basket containing the ten botanicals, in order to gain flavour and
aroma. "

So it is sort-of distilled, I suppose.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-14 22:34:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by charles
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don奏 have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I僧 concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It壮 today壮 artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I僧 meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn奏 quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don奏 even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
not vodka but industrial spirit. It's not a new phenomenon. I went round
the Gordon's place in London in the 1960s. That what they did then.
I guess I may have been a little naive. I have seen adverts such as the
-----------------------------------
https://craftgins.co.uk/
Welcome to Craft Gins!
We love gin, especially gins made by passionate and creative people
pursuing their dreams of creating their very own artisan spirits. That’s
why we created Craft Gins – a special place dedicated to these pioneers
and the incredible gins they distil.
-----------------------------------
Note the "incredible gins they *distil*". That website even features
https://craftgins.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Craft-Gins-Silent-Pool-Gin-Distillation-Cory-Mason.jpg
Not that I have ever been persuaded to buy any posh gin, other than
one time when I bought a bottle of Bombay Sapphire when it was on
special offer at Sainsbury's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Sapphire
" ... Alcohol brought in from another supplier is evaporated three times
using a carterhead still, and the alcohol vapours are passed through a
mesh/basket containing the ten botanicals, in order to gain flavour and
aroma. "
So it is sort-of distilled, I suppose.
The article doesn't actually say that some artisanal gins are made
with trucked-in vodka, only that some gins are. Maybe that's only
the big brands such as Bombay and Gordon's. Or maybe not.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-13 22:04:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don't have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I'm concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It's today's artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to
-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Post by pensive hamster
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I'm meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn't quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don't even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
Why spoil perfectly good vodka?
Industrial alcohol, diluted to 40%, will do just as well,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 22:07:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don't have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I'm concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It's today's artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to
-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Post by pensive hamster
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I'm meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn't quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don't even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
Why spoil perfectly good vodka?
Industrial alcohol, diluted to 40%, will do just as well,
What's the difference between perfectly good vodka and industrial
alcohol diluted to 40%?
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-13 22:31:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by pensive hamster
"The truth is I don't have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I'm concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It's today's artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-suppose
d-to
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mack A. Damia
-like-gin-ruined-vodka
Post by pensive hamster
Quite an entertaining article, but I was quite surprised to learn that
some of these artisanal craft gins may be just bought-in vodka to
"As a man who writes about food and drink I'm meant to know things
but as ever, ignorance springs eternal. Until a year ago I hadn't quite
clocked that often gin is just vodka to which stuff has been added.
It is ruined vodka. Some gin producers don't even make the vodka.
They buy it in, then they ruin it."
Sounds more like artisanal craftiness.
Why spoil perfectly good vodka?
Industrial alcohol, diluted to 40%, will do just as well,
What's the difference between perfectly good vodka and industrial
alcohol diluted to 40%?
Price?

Jan
Peter Moylan
2020-02-14 04:38:23 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Why spoil perfectly good vodka? Industrial alcohol, diluted to
40%, will do just as well,
What's the difference between perfectly good vodka and industrial
alcohol diluted to 40%?
Price?
Back when I used to drink vodka, I noticed very definite taste
differences between different brands of vodka.

But then, the very best vodkas have practically no taste at all. That
probably puts them in the same class as industrial alcohol.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-17 09:32:15 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Why spoil perfectly good vodka? Industrial alcohol, diluted to
40%, will do just as well,
What's the difference between perfectly good vodka and industrial
alcohol diluted to 40%?
Price?
Back when I used to drink vodka, I noticed very definite taste
differences between different brands of vodka.
Again, I guess you would have a hard time keeping them apart
in a double blind test.
Post by Peter Moylan
But then, the very best vodkas have practically no taste at all. That
probably puts them in the same class as industrial alcohol.
Agreed, you can use the cheap ones for putting fruit in,

Jan
Lewis
2020-02-18 00:17:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Why spoil perfectly good vodka? Industrial alcohol, diluted to
40%, will do just as well,
What's the difference between perfectly good vodka and industrial
alcohol diluted to 40%?
Price?
Back when I used to drink vodka, I noticed very definite taste
differences between different brands of vodka.
Again, I guess you would have a hard time keeping them apart
in a double blind test.
Yep.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
But then, the very best vodkas have practically no taste at all. That
probably puts them in the same class as industrial alcohol.
Agreed, you can use the cheap ones for putting fruit in,
I buy the cheapest vodka I can find because my use for vodka is simply
"I have this beverage that I want to drink, but I would like to make it
alcoholic without changing the taste of it at all."

I keep a bottle in the freezer. Well, "bottle" as in "plastic jug", and
add it to any sort of juice.

But mostly when I am at home I will have either bourbon on a rock (a
single large ice cube), or some navy-strength spiced rum (both from my
friend's local distillery) or a gin & tonic (gin and tonic both from the
same distillery, though the tonic is not available for purchase and is
mixed on-site specifically to match their gin).

Hmm... whiskey on a rock sounds pretty good right now, and it must be 5
o'clock somewhere!
--
MEGAHAL: within my penguin lies a torrid story of hate and love.
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-14 00:16:31 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 09:56:39 -0800, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
In my teenage years, I used to have a taste for gin, but those were
the days of partying, over-imbibing and hangovers.

A group of us went the shore over Memorial Day weekend in 1966, and
that was just before I entered the military in July. Ocean City,
Maryland. Very nice place, up-and-coming.

Sleeping one off in the morning after a rousing party, and Kathy
Flannery woke me up by pouring gin on my face. I can still imagine
the smell, and I have never been able to touch the stuff since.
occam
2020-02-14 10:28:26 UTC
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"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
I would have also added the following quote:

"But being ubiquitous is not the same as being nice. I dislike the hit
of juniper and the dank hit of undergrowth wrenched from a fox-soiled
hedgerow."

Mmm... gin is not on my list of slow poisons.
Peter Young
2020-02-14 10:59:40 UTC
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Post by occam
"The truth is I don’t have a favourite gin, because I hate ALL gin. As
far as I’m concerned having a favourite gin would be like choosing a
favourite war criminal, only with a greater impact on my life."
"It’s today’s artisanal craft drink, often marketed by cheery fellas
in flat caps. But, to me, gin tastes like musty leaf matter."
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2020/feb/13/jay-rayner-why-am-i-supposed-
to-like-gin-ruined-vodka
"But being ubiquitous is not the same as being nice. I dislike the hit
of juniper and the dank hit of undergrowth wrenched from a fox-soiled
hedgerow."
Mmm... gin is not on my list of slow poisons.
My father-in-law used to make up sayings. One was, "Whisky makes you
frisky, sherry makes you merry, gin makes you sin". He never went on to
brandy.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Stefan Ram
2020-02-14 12:16:23 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
My father-in-law used to make up sayings. One was, "Whisky makes you
frisky, sherry makes you merry, gin makes you sin". He never went on to
brandy.
Specific effects of gin are a part of English literature.

|Doctor Jimmy and Mister Jim
|When I'm pilled you don't notice him
|He only comes out when I drink my gin
"Doctor Jimmy" - The Who
John Dunlop
2020-02-14 12:51:27 UTC
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Post by occam
"But being ubiquitous is not the same as being nice. I dislike the hit
of juniper and the dank hit of undergrowth wrenched from a fox-soiled
hedgerow."
Mmm... gin is not on my list of slow poisons.
Near the top of my list of poisons is sloe gin.
--
John
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