Discussion:
"Prices" vs "wages" vs "bids"?
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l***@yahoo.com
2018-10-10 19:45:02 UTC
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I was rereading the Tolstoy story of "Ivan the Fool." The translator below is a different one, but "prices" gets used in the same way.

https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false

My question is, if someone translated it today, wouldn't the wording be different, regarding "prices"?


Lenona.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 20:50:04 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
I was rereading the Tolstoy story of "Ivan the Fool." The translator below is a different one, but "prices" gets used in the same way.
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
My question is, if someone translated it today, wouldn't the wording be different, regarding "prices"?
No, it would say "he paid a higher price."
Mark Brader
2018-10-10 23:04:02 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.

Why not quote the passage you are asking about?
--
Mark Brader "It is always dangerous to send authors to jail.
Toronto This removes their chief excuse for not writing."
***@vex.net -- Arthur C. Clarke
Rich Ulrich
2018-10-11 02:23:17 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.
Why not quote the passage you are asking about?"
(The merchant - )
"... he offered high prices for everything."

I see a whole page, with "price(s)" several times.

I agree that the uses of prices seem jarring. When you
set or ask a high price, you are charging the other fellow more.


"He offered top dollar for everything" is the meaning.
"Pay" would often be explicit.

"He offered to pay munificently for everything."
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 02:31:14 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Mark Brader
Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.
Why not quote the passage you are asking about?"
(The merchant - )
"... he offered high prices for everything."
I see a whole page, with "price(s)" several times.
I agree that the uses of prices seem jarring. When you
set or ask a high price, you are charging the other fellow more.
"He offered top dollar for everything" is the meaning.
"Pay" would often be explicit.
"He offered to pay munificently for everything."
Did you maybe see a different line from the one I saw? (It wasn't copyable.)
The problem in the one I saw wasn't in the noun but in the verb.
l***@yahoo.com
2018-10-11 16:16:58 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Mark Brader
Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.
Why not quote the passage you are asking about?"
(The merchant - )
"... he offered high prices for everything."
I see a whole page, with "price(s)" several times.
I agree that the uses of prices seem jarring. When you
set or ask a high price, you are charging the other fellow more.
Thank you!

Here's what I slowly managed to copy, bit by bit. (By the way, in the story, the Devil sets out to wreck the lives of three brothers, one by one - Semyon the Soldier, Taras the Big-Belly (miser, that is) and Ivan the Fool. Due mainly to the Fool, the three all become tsars before the Devil gets to work. As you might guess, the Devil has no trouble wrecking the lives of the first two.)

Quote:

...he (the Devil) established a business house, began to pay out his money. The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing, and all the people flocked to the merchant — to make money. And the people made so much money that they all paid their debts, and began to pay their taxes promptly.

Tsar Taras was delighted.

“Thanks to the merchant,” said he to himself, “now I shall get still more money — my life will be still better.”

And Tsar Taras endeavored to make new plans; he began to build a new palace for himself. He notified the people to bring him lumber and stone and to set to work for him; he offered high prices for everything. Tsar Taras thought that, judging by the past, the people would come to work for him in crowds for the money. But lo! they brought all the lumber and stone to the merchant, and all the working-people flocked to him. Tsar Taras raised his offer, but the merchant went still higher. Tsar Taras had much money, but the merchant still more; and the merchant's was better than the Tsar's. The Tsar's palace was at a standstill; building stopped.

A park had been laid out for Tsar Taras. The autumn came. Taras invited the people to come to him to work in the park—no one came—all the people were engaged in digging a pond for the merchant.

Winter came. Tsar Taras wanted to buy sable furs for a new shuba; he sent out to buy them — his messenger came back, saying : —

"There are no sable furs. The merchant has them all ; he gave a higher price, and he has made a carpet out of the sable skins."

Tsar Taras wanted to buy some stallions; he sent out to buy them — his agents returned, saying : —

“The merchant has all the good stallions; they are carrying water to fill up his pond."

All the Tsar's affairs came to a standstill ; no one would do anything for him, but they did everything for the merchant; and all they bring him is the merchant's money, which they pay for their taxes. And the Tsar collected so much money that he had nowhere to put it, and life became wretched. The Tsar had now ceased to make plans — his only concern was to live at all — even this was impossible. He ran short of everything. His cooks and coachmen left him and took service with the merchant. It had now gone so far that he had nothing to eat. If he sent to the bazaar to buy anything — there was nothing to be got; the merchant had bought up everything, and the people brought him only money for taxes!

Tsar Taras was angry, and banished the merchant beyond the frontier; but the ; but the merchant settled down on the very frontier and went on as before, all exactly the same; for the sake of the merchant's money they carry everything away from the Tsar to the merchant. It became utterly wretched for the Tsar ; for days at a time, there was nothing to eat; the report spread even that the merchant was boasting that he was going to buy the Tsar himself. Tsar Taras became alarmed, and did not know what to do.

(snip)

That was apparently an 1899 translation.

What's odd is that when I read the story in Ann Dunnigan's "Fables and Fairy Tales" (ed. 1962, all written or retold by Tolstoy), she used "prices" pretty much the same way. (She also translated "War and Peace.") Other than that, I think her translation is the best, when it comes to those stories.


Lenona.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 16:25:56 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Mark Brader
Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.
Why not quote the passage you are asking about?"
(The merchant - )
"... he offered high prices for everything."
I see a whole page, with "price(s)" several times.
I agree that the uses of prices seem jarring. When you
set or ask a high price, you are charging the other fellow more.
Thank you!
Here's what I slowly managed to copy, bit by bit. (By the way, in the story, the Devil sets out to wreck the lives of three brothers, one by one - Semyon the Soldier, Taras the Big-Belly (miser, that is) and Ivan the Fool. Due mainly to the Fool, the three all become tsars before the Devil gets to work. As you might guess, the Devil has no trouble wrecking the lives of the first two.)
...he (the Devil) established a business house, began to pay out his money. The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing, and all the people flocked to the merchant — to make money. And the people made so much money that they all paid their debts, and began to pay their taxes promptly.
Tsar Taras was delighted.
“Thanks to the merchant,” said he to himself, “now I shall get still more money — my life will be still better.”
And Tsar Taras endeavored to make new plans; he began to build a new palace for himself. He notified the people to bring him lumber and stone and to set to work for him; he offered high prices for everything. Tsar Taras thought that, judging by the past, the people would come to work for him in crowds for the money. But lo! they brought all the lumber and stone to the merchant, and all the working-people flocked to him. Tsar Taras raised his offer, but the merchant went still higher. Tsar Taras had much money, but the merchant still more; and the merchant's was better than the Tsar's. The Tsar's palace was at a standstill; building stopped.
A park had been laid out for Tsar Taras. The autumn came. Taras invited the people to come to him to work in the park—no one came—all the people were engaged in digging a pond for the merchant.
Winter came. Tsar Taras wanted to buy sable furs for a new shuba; he sent out to buy them — his messenger came back, saying : —
"There are no sable furs. The merchant has them all ; he gave a higher price, and he has made a carpet out of the sable skins."
Tsar Taras wanted to buy some stallions; he sent out to buy them — his agents returned, saying : —
“The merchant has all the good stallions; they are carrying water to fill up his pond."
All the Tsar's affairs came to a standstill ; no one would do anything for him, but they did everything for the merchant; and all they bring him is the merchant's money, which they pay for their taxes. And the Tsar collected so much money that he had nowhere to put it, and life became wretched. The Tsar had now ceased to make plans — his only concern was to live at all — even this was impossible. He ran short of everything. His cooks and coachmen left him and took service with the merchant. It had now gone so far that he had nothing to eat. If he sent to the bazaar to buy anything — there was nothing to be got; the merchant had bought up everything, and the people brought him only money for taxes!
Tsar Taras was angry, and banished the merchant beyond the frontier; but the ; but the merchant settled down on the very frontier and went on as before, all exactly the same; for the sake of the merchant's money they carry everything away from the Tsar to the merchant. It became utterly wretched for the Tsar ; for days at a time, there was nothing to eat; the report spread even that the merchant was boasting that he was going to buy the Tsar himself. Tsar Taras became alarmed, and did not know what to do.
(snip)
That was apparently an 1899 translation.
What's odd is that when I read the story in Ann Dunnigan's "Fables and Fairy Tales" (ed. 1962, all written or retold by Tolstoy), she used "prices" pretty much the same way. (She also translated "War and Peace.") Other than that, I think her translation is the best, when it comes to those stories.
You still didn't say which occurrence of "prices" bothers you. As I said
yesterday, the one that jars is "gave a higher price"; it should be "paid
a higher price." All the others are perfectly fine.
l***@yahoo.com
2018-10-11 17:08:00 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
You still didn't say which occurrence of "prices" bothers you. As I said
yesterday, the one that jars is "gave a higher price"; it should be "paid
a higher price." All the others are perfectly fine.
"Paying high prices for every sort of thing" is clear enough.

It's just that when it comes to "he offered high prices for everything" I don't see any reason not to say "wages" instead. As Ulrich pointed out, that's not the way people tend to use the word "prices."

Also, I think (can't find it right now) that in Dunnigan's translation, she used "price" instead of "offer."

One other interesting difference between the two translators was in the last paragraph. Personally, I think the 1899 translation is a bit too vague - by "buying" the Tsar, does that mean his kingdom, or what?

But in Dunnigan's translation, it said: "..and it was rumored that the merchant was now boasting that he would even buy the tsar's wife!"


Others phrased it that way too, in the 1980s - in "Russian Comic Fiction" [ed. Guy Daniels] - and in "Devils (Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy #8)."

More on the latter:

"A collection of fantasy stories dealing with black magic, temptation, and demonic enchantment includes works by Arthur C. Clarke, Stephen Vincent Benet, Leo Tolstoy, Robert Bloch, Theodore Sturgeon, and Philip Jose Farmer."


Lenona.
s***@gmail.com
2018-10-11 20:12:36 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You still didn't say which occurrence of "prices" bothers you. As I said
yesterday, the one that jars is "gave a higher price"; it should be "paid
a higher price." All the others are perfectly fine.
"Paying high prices for every sort of thing" is clear enough.
It's just that when it comes to "he offered high prices for everything" I don't see any reason not to say "wages" instead. As Ulrich pointed out, that's not the way people tend to use the word "prices."
Also, I think (can't find it right now) that in Dunnigan's translation, she used "price" instead of "offer."
One other interesting difference between the two translators was in the last paragraph. Personally, I think the 1899 translation is a bit too vague - by "buying" the Tsar, does that mean his kingdom, or what?
But in Dunnigan's translation, it said: "..and it was rumored that the merchant was now boasting that he would even buy the tsar's wife!"
Others phrased it that way too, in the 1980s - in "Russian Comic Fiction" [ed. Guy Daniels] - and in "Devils (Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy #8)."
"A collection of fantasy stories dealing with black magic, temptation, and demonic enchantment includes works by Arthur C. Clarke, Stephen Vincent Benet, Leo Tolstoy, Robert Bloch, Theodore Sturgeon, and Philip Jose Farmer."
Lenona.
At Project Gutenberg, I also find the "offered top prices" where I would expect "wages" or "pay".
<URL:http://www.gutenberg.org/files/689/689-h/689-h.htm#link2HCH0038>

<quote>
Tarras was overjoyed at this condition of affairs and said:
“Thanks to this merchant, now I will have more money than before,
and life will be much pleasanter for me.”

He wished to erect new buildings, and advertised for workmen,
* offering the highest prices for all kinds of labor. *
Tarras thought the people would be as anxious to work as formerly,
but instead he was much surprised to learn that they were working
for the “merchant.” Thinking to induce them to leave the “merchant,”
he increased his offers, but the former, equal to the emergency,
also raised the wages of his workmen. Tarras, having plenty of money,
increased the offers still more; but the “merchant” raised them still higher
and got the better of him. Thus, defeated at every point,
Tarras was compelled to abandon the idea of building.
</quote>

I don't see a translator credited; the edition this came from would have been
from before 1923.

I didn't look closely to see if other PG files had the same story.

/dps
Madhu
2018-10-12 12:40:06 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You still didn't say which occurrence of "prices" bothers you. As I
said yesterday, the one that jars is "gave a higher price"; it
should be "paid a higher price." All the others are perfectly fine.
"Paying high prices for every sort of thing" is clear enough.
It's just that when it comes to "he offered high prices for
everything" I don't see any reason not to say "wages" instead. As
Ulrich pointed out, that's not the way people tend to use the word
"prices."
Also, I think (can't find it right now) that in Dunnigan's
translation, she used "price" instead of "offer."
One other interesting difference between the two translators was in
the last paragraph. Personally, I think the 1899 translation is a bit
too vague - by "buying" the Tsar, does that mean his kingdom, or
what?
But in Dunnigan's translation, it said: "..and it was rumored that
the merchant was now boasting that he would even buy the tsar's
wife!"
Others phrased it that way too, in the 1980s - in "Russian Comic
Fiction" [ed. Guy Daniels] - and in "Devils (Isaac Asimov's Magical
Worlds of Fantasy #8)."
"A collection of fantasy stories dealing with black magic,
temptation, and demonic enchantment includes works by Arthur
C. Clarke, Stephen Vincent Benet, Leo Tolstoy, Robert Bloch,
Theodore Sturgeon, and Philip Jose Farmer."
At Project Gutenberg, I also find the "offered top prices" where I
would expect "wages" or "pay".
<URL:http://www.gutenberg.org/files/689/689-h/689-h.htm#link2HCH0038>
<quote>
“Thanks to this merchant, now I will have more money than before,
and life will be much pleasanter for me.”
He wished to erect new buildings, and advertised for workmen,
* offering the highest prices for all kinds of labor. *
Tarras thought the people would be as anxious to work as formerly,
but instead he was much surprised to learn that they were working
for the “merchant.” Thinking to induce them to leave the “merchant,”
he increased his offers, but the former, equal to the emergency,
also raised the wages of his workmen. Tarras, having plenty of money,
increased the offers still more; but the “merchant” raised them still higher
and got the better of him. Thus, defeated at every point,
Tarras was compelled to abandon the idea of building.
</quote>
I don't see a translator credited; the edition this came from would
have been from before 1923.
I found my tattered copy of "TWENTY-THREE TALES by TOLSTOY, white ants
and silverfish got both the front back covers, but I think it was the
1923 translation by the husband and wife team. (L.and A. Maude)

The use of "prices" agrees with the 1899 translation posted upthread.
"everything" replaces "labour" as before. "prices" agree with the goods
mentioned.

[sorry for not snipping]
Post by s***@gmail.com
I didn't look closely to see if other PG files had the same story.
/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 04:54:39 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You still didn't say which occurrence of "prices" bothers you. As I said
yesterday, the one that jars is "gave a higher price"; it should be "paid
a higher price." All the others are perfectly fine.
"Paying high prices for every sort of thing" is clear enough.
It's just that when it comes to "he offered high prices for everything" I don't see any reason not to say "wages" instead. As Ulrich pointed out, that's not the way people tend to use the word "prices."
Sorry, but I can't find anything in that whole long, long story about
wages. Could you _please_ say what you're talking about?


Wages is money paid for labor, not for goods.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Also, I think (can't find it right now) that in Dunnigan's translation, she used "price" instead of "offer."
One other interesting difference between the two translators was in the last paragraph. Personally, I think the 1899 translation is a bit too vague - by "buying" the Tsar, does that mean his kingdom, or what?
But in Dunnigan's translation, it said: "..and it was rumored that the merchant was now boasting that he would even buy the tsar's wife!"
Others phrased it that way too, in the 1980s - in "Russian Comic Fiction" [ed. Guy Daniels] - and in "Devils (Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy #8)."
"A collection of fantasy stories dealing with black magic, temptation, and demonic enchantment includes works by Arthur C. Clarke, Stephen Vincent Benet, Leo Tolstoy, Robert Bloch, Theodore Sturgeon, and Philip Jose Farmer."
Newly translated for those two anthologies?
l***@yahoo.com
2018-10-13 14:14:10 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but I can't find anything in that whole long, long story about
wages. Could you _please_ say what you're talking about?
Wages is money paid for labor, not for goods.
Didn't you notice that they were WORKING for the "merchant," not just selling their goods to him?

At any rate, whenever someone says "my prices," I tend to assume that means prices for what the speaker is selling, not buying. In Dunnigan's translation, it says: "He (Taras) set high prices for everything" and "If Tsar Taras raised his prices, the merchant raised his still higher." That was what struck me as bizarre, as a kid.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Others phrased it that way too, in the 1980s - in "Russian Comic Fiction" [ed. Guy Daniels] - and in "Devils (Isaac Asimov's Magical Worlds of Fantasy #8)."
"A collection of fantasy stories dealing with black magic, temptation, and demonic enchantment includes works by Arthur C. Clarke, Stephen Vincent Benet, Leo Tolstoy, Robert Bloch, Theodore Sturgeon, and Philip Jose Farmer."
Newly translated for those two anthologies?
No idea, but maybe. (Dunnigan's 1962 translation definitely sounded more modern than any earlier translation, and, IMO, it sounds timeless, but it's possible they'd want to update it even more for the 1980s. Another line of hers: "...they settled the arrears on their taxes, and even began paying them on time.")


Lenona.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 00:40:13 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but I can't find anything in that whole long, long story about
wages. Could you _please_ say what you're talking about?
Wages is money paid for labor, not for goods.
Didn't you notice that they were WORKING for the "merchant," not just selling their goods to him?
No, I didn't. I suppose I can go through the text yet again to try to
figure out what you might be referring to.

Is it this:

"The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing, and all the people flocked to the merchant — to make money. And the people made so much money that they all paid their debts, and began to pay their taxes promptly."

That clearly says that the merchant was purchasing goods to sell -- "every
sort of thing" that they produced: presumably both farm products and craft
work like cloth or even finished clothing, furniture made by carpenters or
cabinetmakers, etc.

Cf.:

"He notified the people to bring him lumber and stone and to set to work for him; he offered high prices for everything."

I.e. for their lumber and stone. "To work for him" isn't an "everything."
Post by l***@yahoo.com
At any rate, whenever someone says "my prices," I tend to assume that means prices for what the speaker is selling, not buying. In Dunnigan's translation, it says: "He (Taras) set high prices for everything" and "If Tsar Taras raised his prices, the merchant raised his still higher." That was what struck me as bizarre, as a kid.
"My prices" would only come up in something like "My prices are lower
than those charged by the shmendrick across the street."
Madhu
2018-10-14 08:55:12 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but I can't find anything in that whole long, long story
about wages. Could you _please_ say what you're talking about?
Wages is money paid for labor, not for goods.
Didn't you notice that they were WORKING for the "merchant," not just
selling their goods to him?
No, I didn't. I suppose I can go through the text yet again to try to
figure out what you might be referring to.
"The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing, and
all the people flocked to the merchant - to make money. And the people
made so much money that they all paid their debts, and began to pay
their taxes promptly."
That clearly says that the merchant was purchasing goods to sell -- "every
sort of thing" that they produced: presumably both farm products and craft
work like cloth or even finished clothing, furniture made by carpenters or
cabinetmakers, etc.
The merchant was not selling goods. He was buying them up.
He was offering the buying price. The villagers were selling them. He
was not in the business of buying and selling, he was just in the
business of buying, so no one else could get at the goods.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"He notified the people to bring him lumber and stone and to set to
work for him; he offered high prices for everything."
I.e. for their lumber and stone. "To work for him" isn't an
"everything."
If you saw ***@gmail.com's post on this topic on "Thu, 11 Oct
2018 13:12:36 -0700", he quotes an 1899 translation from gutenberg.org
| <URL:http://www.gutenberg.org/files/689/689-h/689-h.htm#link2HCH0038>
|
| He wished to erect new buildings, and advertised for workmen,
| *offering the highest prices for all kinds of labor.*

It is translated as "labour" here.

If you see Louise and Aylmer Maude's 1923 translation of Ivan the Fool,
<URL:https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Twenty-three_Tales/The_Story_of_Iv%C3%A1n_the_Fool>
it has

"And Taras the King began to form fresh plans, and began to build
a new palace. He gave notice that people should bring him wood
and stone, and come to work, and he fixed high prices for
everything."


Where "labour" is again dropped in favour of "everything" so "high
prices" could be used instead of "high prices" and "high wages"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
At any rate, whenever someone says "my prices," I tend to assume
that means prices for what the speaker is selling, not buying. In
Dunnigan's translation, it says: "He (Taras) set high prices for
everything" and "If Tsar Taras raised his prices, the merchant
raised his still higher." That was what struck me as bizarre, as a
kid.
"My prices" would only come up in something like "My prices are lower
than those charged by the shmendrick across the street."
If your business model was the same as that of the merchant and those
cigarette sellers. But The merchant's business strategy had a different
goal.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 13:18:03 UTC
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Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, but I can't find anything in that whole long, long story
about wages. Could you _please_ say what you're talking about?
Wages is money paid for labor, not for goods.
Didn't you notice that they were WORKING for the "merchant," not just
selling their goods to him?
No, I didn't. I suppose I can go through the text yet again to try to
figure out what you might be referring to.
"The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing, and
all the people flocked to the merchant - to make money. And the people
made so much money that they all paid their debts, and began to pay
their taxes promptly."
That clearly says that the merchant was purchasing goods to sell -- "every
sort of thing" that they produced: presumably both farm products and craft
work like cloth or even finished clothing, furniture made by carpenters or
cabinetmakers, etc.
The merchant was not selling goods. He was buying them up.
He was offering the buying price. The villagers were selling them. He
was not in the business of buying and selling, he was just in the
business of buying, so no one else could get at the goods.
Interesting. Where was he getting the money to do all that purchasing,
then? Is this a story that was written in defense of Marxism and against
Capitalism?
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"He notified the people to bring him lumber and stone and to set to
work for him; he offered high prices for everything."
I.e. for their lumber and stone. "To work for him" isn't an
"everything."
2018 13:12:36 -0700", he quotes an 1899 translation from gutenberg.org
| <URL:http://www.gutenberg.org/files/689/689-h/689-h.htm#link2HCH0038>
|
| He wished to erect new buildings, and advertised for workmen,
| *offering the highest prices for all kinds of labor.*
It is translated as "labour" here.
Which shows that different translators had different understandings of
the original. I don't know what the original said, I only know what the
version presented here said, and it doesn't say that. Is "labo(u)r"
interpolated by the translator?
Post by Madhu
If you see Louise and Aylmer Maude's 1923 translation of Ivan the Fool,
<URL:https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Twenty-three_Tales/The_Story_of_Iv%C3%A1n_the_Fool>
it has
"And Taras the King began to form fresh plans, and began to build
a new palace. He gave notice that people should bring him wood
and stone, and come to work, and he fixed high prices for
everything."
Where "labour" is again dropped in favour of "everything" so "high
prices" could be used instead of "high prices" and "high wages"
Since the translators agree two-to-one against, that suggests that
"labor" is not in the original, but is one translator's guess at the
interpretation of a puzzling passage.

After I saw a dramatization of "The Master and Margarita," I wanted to
read the story. The bookstore had two translations; I compared the first
paragraphs, and they were very different -- the one that included more
specific details also claimed that the hero had a cap "perched on the
nape of his neck," a physical impossibility, but the other one had an
equally implausible description of the cap (which I don't remember). So
I ended up not reading the story. (The play, incidentally, starred David
Schwimmer, and it was the summer before *Friends* began on TV.)

Translators, especially literary translators, are not necessarily literal.
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
At any rate, whenever someone says "my prices," I tend to assume
that means prices for what the speaker is selling, not buying. In
Dunnigan's translation, it says: "He (Taras) set high prices for
everything" and "If Tsar Taras raised his prices, the merchant
raised his still higher." That was what struck me as bizarre, as a
kid.
"My prices" would only come up in something like "My prices are lower
than those charged by the shmendrick across the street."
If your business model was the same as that of the merchant and those
cigarette sellers. But The merchant's business strategy had a different
goal.
Not making any money?
Madhu
2018-10-14 14:48:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madhu
If you see Louise and Aylmer Maude's 1923 translation of Ivan the Fool,
<URL:https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Twenty-three_Tales/The_Story_of_Iv%C3%A1n_the_Fool>
it has
It may be worth a quick read ^^^
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madhu
"And Taras the King began to form fresh plans, and began to build
a new palace. He gave notice that people should bring him wood
and stone, and come to work, and he fixed high prices for
everything."
Where "labour" is again dropped in favour of "everything" so "high
prices" could be used instead of "high prices" and "high wages"
Since the translators agree two-to-one against, that suggests that
"labor" is not in the original, but is one translator's guess at the
interpretation of a puzzling passage.
If leona is russian, maybe she(?) recognized an idiomatic use of "work"
in that passage
Post by Peter T. Daniels
After I saw a dramatization of "The Master and Margarita," I wanted to
read the story. The bookstore had two translations; I compared the first
paragraphs, and they were very different -- the one that included more
specific details also claimed that the hero had a cap "perched on the
nape of his neck," a physical impossibility, but the other one had an
equally implausible description of the cap (which I don't remember). So
I ended up not reading the story. (The play, incidentally, starred David
Schwimmer, and it was the summer before *Friends* began on TV.)
Translators, especially literary translators, are not necessarily literal.
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by l***@yahoo.com
At any rate, whenever someone says "my prices," I tend to assume
that means prices for what the speaker is selling, not buying. In
Dunnigan's translation, it says: "He (Taras) set high prices for
everything" and "If Tsar Taras raised his prices, the merchant
raised his still higher." That was what struck me as bizarre, as a
kid.
"My prices" would only come up in something like "My prices are lower
than those charged by the shmendrick across the street."
If your business model was the same as that of the merchant and those
cigarette sellers. But The merchant's business strategy had a different
goal.
Not making any money?
No the merchant is satan. His goal was to ruin the three, and lead the
people to Hell, money was the tool but Ivan escapes. It was mentioned
upfront a few posts upthread.
l***@yahoo.com
2018-10-16 22:55:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
If leona is russian,
No, I'm not.
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madhu
If your business model was the same as that of the merchant and those
cigarette sellers. But The merchant's business strategy had a different
goal.
Not making any money?
No the merchant is satan. His goal was to ruin the three, and lead the
people to Hell, money was the tool but Ivan escapes. It was mentioned
upfront a few posts upthread.
And, for the curious, the main reason the Devil can't wreck the life of Ivan the Fool is that unlike his brothers, Ivan has no appreciation for war, stealing (i.e., booty), or even money; all he and his "foolish" subjects understand is the happiness that comes from hard manual labor - and kindness to those who agree. (Of course, when the Devil was disguised as a merchant, he wasn't doing any manual labor himself.)

Last line from Ann Dunnigan's translation: "There is just one custom that is always observed in his kingdom: he who has calluses sits at the table; he who has none eats the scraps."

(And it LOOKS as though that book "Devils" uses her translation - I searched on a few more phrases in Google Books. Oddly, HER book doesn't come up - only "Devils.")


Lenona.

Mark Brader
2018-10-11 22:01:11 UTC
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Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
...he (the Devil) established a business house, began to pay out his
money. The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing,
and all the people flocked to the merchant -- to make money...
When an item is sold for money, "price" can mean the amount of money
no matter whether the buyer or seller determines it. This usage is
correct.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Subject: "Prices" vs "wages" vs "bids"?
"Wages" are the amount of money paid for work, not for merchansise.
A "bid" in this context is a proposal or offer for a certain amount
of money to be paid or accepted. Neither one is a correct replacement
for "prices" in this context.


Thank you for posting the passage.
--
Mark Brader "Actually, $150, to an educational institution,
Toronto turns out to be about the same as a lower amount."
***@vex.net -- Mark Horton

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Tony Cooper
2018-10-11 22:54:27 UTC
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Post by l***@yahoo.com
Post by Rich Ulrich
I agree that the uses of prices seem jarring. When you
set or ask a high price, you are charging the other fellow more.
Thank you!
The "price" is what someone charges you for something or what you
charge someone else. It works both ways. It is the monetary value
assigned.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
The merchant began by paying high prices for every sort of thing,
Nothing wrong with that usage.
Post by l***@yahoo.com
"There are no sable furs. The merchant has them all ; he gave a higher price,
Nothing wrong with that usage.

This is a case where the word used is not wrong in context but a
change in context could be preferable. Using "...he paid a higher
price" would be preferable, but what was written is not wrong.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-11 06:12:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by l***@yahoo.com
https://books.google.com/books?id=VZkOAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=%22tsar+taras+was+delighted%22&source=bl&ots=lD3Nsv0C_M&sig=-zj_IAVEE0114rVx8T1futL_btQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO5Kn90PzdAhUB0FMKHbinDPMQ6AEwAHoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22tsar%20taras%20was%20delighted%22&f=false
The only snippet of that page that Google Books allows me to see does not
include the word "prices". If I search on "Tsar Taras was delighted" to
find other instances in Google Books, the only one where I am allowed to
view the entire page is corrupt and illegible.
Why not quote the passage you are asking about?
My question too. I didn't follow the link.
--
athel
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