Discussion:
"Two terms of dinners"
(too old to reply)
Default User
2018-09-09 16:57:06 UTC
Permalink
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
barrister in England. There was a passage that I didn't understand:

"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."

I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.



Brian
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-09-09 17:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
As I understand it, one of the conditions of becoming a barrister is
(or was) to eat a certain number of dinners in the place of study. I
have a vague recollection that as an undergraduate at Oxford I was
required to attend a certain number of dinners per week in the hall of
the College. However, we didn't talk about eating dinners as much as
barristers do.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-09 17:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
As I understand it, one of the conditions of becoming a barrister is
(or was) to eat a certain number of dinners in the place of study. I
have a vague recollection that as an undergraduate at Oxford I was
required to attend a certain number of dinners per week in the hall of
the College. However, we didn't talk about eating dinners as much as
barristers do.
My being a guest at Brasenose College meant that I could partake of all the
meals they served (they only did dinner by reservation -- er, prior booking
-- in summer, though), which I was admitted to simply by virtue of having
the "key fob" that opened the electronic locks on the exterior doors. If
dining was included in College membership, why would a mandatory-participation
rule be instituted?

(I don't know how they could plan, as they didn't even have a sign-up
sheet for an approximate count.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-09-09 17:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
As I understand it, one of the conditions of becoming a barrister is
(or was) to eat a certain number of dinners in the place of study. I
have a vague recollection that as an undergraduate at Oxford I was
required to attend a certain number of dinners per week in the hall of
the College. However, we didn't talk about eating dinners as much as
barristers do.
My being a guest at Brasenose College meant that I could partake of all the
meals they served (they only did dinner by reservation -- er, prior booking
-- in summer, though), which I was admitted to simply by virtue of having
the "key fob" that opened the electronic locks on the exterior doors. If
dining was included in College membership, why would a mandatory-participation
rule be instituted?
(I don't know how they could plan, as they didn't even have a sign-up
sheet for an approximate count.)
When I was an undergaduate any policing there was was minimal, if it
was done at all.
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2018-09-09 17:16:46 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:57:06 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
Regulations of the Inner Temple.

She was a student and was rewarded for her certificate of honor by
being excused from attending mandatory dinners for two terms.

https://www.innertemple.org.uk/who-we-are/how-we-operate/regulation-of-the-profession/

"Anyone wanting to be called to the bar must eat 12 formal dinners at
the inns of court"

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/12/barristers-dinners-fun-indulgence
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-09-09 22:33:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 09 Sep 2018 10:16:46 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:57:06 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
Regulations of the Inner Temple.
She was a student and was rewarded for her certificate of honor by
being excused from attending mandatory dinners for two terms.
https://www.innertemple.org.uk/who-we-are/how-we-operate/regulation-of-the-profession/
"Anyone wanting to be called to the bar must eat 12 formal dinners at
the inns of court"
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/may/12/barristers-dinners-fun-indulgence
That is the Bar in England and Wales.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Young
2018-09-09 17:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
This is again because of the British delight in ancient traditions. In
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inns_of_Court you will find:

The Inns of Court no longer provide all the education and training needed
by prospective barristers, who must pass the Bar Professional Training
Course, but do provide supplementary education during the 'Bar School'
year, pupillage and the early years of practice. All prospective Bar
School students must be a member of one of the four Inns, and must attend
twelve 'qualifying sessions' before being eligible to qualify as a
barrister. Qualifying sessions traditionally comprise formal dinners
followed by law-related talks, but increasingly the Inns offer training
weekends that may count for several sessions' worth of attendance. The
Inns still retain the sole right to call qualified students to the bar,
which is associated with a graduation ceremony ('Call Day').

British barristers do this because they've always done this.

When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Au)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
charles
2018-09-09 17:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
This is again because of the British delight in ancient traditions. In
The Inns of Court no longer provide all the education and training needed
by prospective barristers, who must pass the Bar Professional Training
Course, but do provide supplementary education during the 'Bar School'
year, pupillage and the early years of practice. All prospective Bar
School students must be a member of one of the four Inns, and must attend
twelve 'qualifying sessions' before being eligible to qualify as a
barrister. Qualifying sessions traditionally comprise formal dinners
followed by law-related talks, but increasingly the Inns offer training
weekends that may count for several sessions' worth of attendance. The
Inns still retain the sole right to call qualified students to the bar,
which is associated with a graduation ceremony ('Call Day').
British barristers do this because they've always done this.
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we
were also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College
Hall each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much
doubt that this is still so.
We (Magdalene 1959-62) could opt out of two meals per week.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Default User
2018-09-09 20:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Default User
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms
of dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the
same passage.
This is again because of the British delight in ancient traditions.
[snip interesting discussion of "Inns of Court"]


Thanks to you and the others for the information. It was one of those
deals where I was researching something else and found reference to the
second woman to become a barrister, so of course I had to find who the
*first* was.

Oddly, Dr. williiams never argued a case in court. It seemed like her
goal really was to a be a law professor. I'm not sure if she went
through the trouble just because it had become possible and someone
ought to, or if being a barrister is an enhancement or possibly a
requirement for some teaching positions.
Quinn C
2018-09-10 03:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Peter Young
Post by Default User
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms
of dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the
same passage.
This is again because of the British delight in ancient traditions.
[snip interesting discussion of "Inns of Court"]
Thanks to you and the others for the information. It was one of those
deals where I was researching something else and found reference to the
second woman to become a barrister, so of course I had to find who the
*first* was.
However, as for finishing her studies of law at Oxford, she was
preceded by 10 years by Cornelia Sorabji:

| first female graduate from Bombay University, the first woman to
| study law at Oxford University[1] (the first Indian national to
| study at any British university)[2], the first female advocate in
| India,[3] and the first woman to practice law in India and Britain.

Both Williams and Sorabji had to wait until the law allowed women to be
barristers.
--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125
s***@gowanhill.com
2018-09-09 21:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."

"Peterhouse is one of only two colleges to have Formal Hall every night; a fully-waited three course meal with coffee costing only £6.30 a head -one of the cheapest in Cambridge."

http://www.peterhousejcr.co.uk/prospectus/college/food-drink (dates from 2016)

Owain
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-10 03:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
"Peterhouse is one of only two colleges to have Formal Hall every night; a fully-waited three course meal with coffee costing only £6.30 a head -one of the cheapest in Cambridge."
http://www.peterhousejcr.co.uk/prospectus/college/food-drink (dates from 2016)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-09-10 11:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
But that's not what it's saying. 35 lunches/dinners if any or all are <£2.80
is not sufficient.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-10 11:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
But that's not what it's saying. 35 lunches/dinners if any or all are <£2.80
is not sufficient.
My version is what I understand the regulation to say, but yours I can't
interpret.
Tony Cooper
2018-09-10 13:34:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 04:22:42 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat
at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be
charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
But that's not what it's saying. 35 lunches/dinners if any or all are <£2.80
is not sufficient.
Your version doesn't make sense. The original doesn't seem at all
"strange" to me.

The requirement to eat a certain number of meals in college is
understandable. The college is basing their purchasing and staffing
on a certain level of demand. If students skip the meals, the college
has purchased more product than they have sold, and they lose money.
Knowing exactly (or pretty close to exactly) how much product to order
allows them to keep the cost of the meals at a minimum.

The amount (under US $4.00) seems very minimal for lunch or dinner.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-09-10 15:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 04:22:42 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat
at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be
charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
But that's not what it's saying. 35 lunches/dinners if any or all are <£2.80
is not sufficient.
Your version doesn't make sense. The original doesn't seem at all
"strange" to me.
Are you saying that my paraphrase isn't easier to understand?

And anyway, if people have paid for their food but don't show up to eat
what's been prepared, then there's more left over to donate to charity.
Post by Tony Cooper
The requirement to eat a certain number of meals in college is
understandable. The college is basing their purchasing and staffing
on a certain level of demand. If students skip the meals, the college
has purchased more product than they have sold, and they lose money.
Knowing exactly (or pretty close to exactly) how much product to order
allows them to keep the cost of the meals at a minimum.
The amount (under US $4.00) seems very minimal for lunch or dinner.
How much does it cost Mrs C. to serve you one lunch or dinner?

Incidentally, £2.80 didn't convert to < $4 in 1957-60. At the $2.40
conversion rate (1d = 1c) that I learned at about that time, it comes
to just about $6.75 per meal. And if you look at the restaurant signs
in movies/TV of that time that were filmed on location, you'd see that
that would buy you several meals, *Naked City*, for instance, often
filmed in diners, and the menu on the wall was often visible.
Quinn C
2018-09-10 17:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 04:22:42 -0700 (PDT), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60, we were
also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the College Hall
each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how many. I very much doubt
that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you have to eat
at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or you will be
charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two signouts."
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What a strange way to say "You must pay for 35 lunches/dinners per term."
But that's not what it's saying. 35 lunches/dinners if any or all are <£2.80
is not sufficient.
Your version doesn't make sense. The original doesn't seem at all
"strange" to me.
Are you saying that my paraphrase isn't easier to understand?
And anyway, if people have paid for their food but don't show up to eat
what's been prepared, then there's more left over to donate to charity.
Post by Tony Cooper
The requirement to eat a certain number of meals in college is
understandable. The college is basing their purchasing and staffing
on a certain level of demand. If students skip the meals, the college
has purchased more product than they have sold, and they lose money.
Knowing exactly (or pretty close to exactly) how much product to order
allows them to keep the cost of the meals at a minimum.
The amount (under US $4.00) seems very minimal for lunch or dinner.
How much does it cost Mrs C. to serve you one lunch or dinner?
Incidentally, £2.80 didn't convert to < $4 in 1957-60.
That price quote was from 2016.
--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Peter Moylan
2018-09-10 16:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60,
we were also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the
College Hall each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how
many. I very much doubt that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you
have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or
you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two
signouts."
"Peterhouse is one of only two colleges to have Formal Hall every
night; a fully-waited three course meal with coffee costing only
£6.30 a head -one of the cheapest in Cambridge."
http://www.peterhousejcr.co.uk/prospectus/college/food-drink (dates from 2016)
So very different from my own undergraduate experience. I lived in a
college, and paid a certain amount per term for the privilege. That gave
me a room in which to work and to sleep -- although for the first couple
of years I had a roommate -- and meals were included. We tended to skip
breakfast if we'd had a heavy night, but nearly everyone turned up to
lunch and dinner.

Many of my co-students did not live in a college, because their parents
lived in the same city and they lived with their parents. In hindsight,
I can see that rural and city students had a very different university
experience.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
charles
2018-09-10 16:45:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by s***@gowanhill.com
Post by Peter Young
When I was a student (sorry, undergraduate) at Cambridge, 1957-60,
we were also expected to have a certain m=number of dinners in the
College Hall each term (AmE semester) but I can't remember how
many. I very much doubt that this is still so.
"Peterhouse is one of the few colleges with a sign out system- you
have to eat at least 35 lunches/dinners that cost >£2.80 each term or
you will be charged for them anyway. Formal hall counts for two
signouts."
"Peterhouse is one of only two colleges to have Formal Hall every
night; a fully-waited three course meal with coffee costing only
£6.30 a head -one of the cheapest in Cambridge."
http://www.peterhousejcr.co.uk/prospectus/college/food-drink (dates from 2016)
So very different from my own undergraduate experience. I lived in a
college, and paid a certain amount per term for the privilege. That gave
me a room in which to work and to sleep -- although for the first couple
of years I had a roommate -- and meals were included. We tended to skip
breakfast if we'd had a heavy night, but nearly everyone turned up to
lunch and dinner.
Many of my co-students did not live in a college, because their parents
lived in the same city and they lived with their parents. In hindsight,
I can see that rural and city students had a very different university
experience.
my younger brother started staying with our parents, but decided it was too
restricting on his social life, so moved to university accommodation. He
just turned up every weekend with his washing.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
charles
2018-09-09 17:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
I was reading the Wikipedia article on Ivy Williams, the first woman
"She was called to the bar on 10 May 1922, having received a
certificate of honour (first class) in her final bar examination in
Michaelmas 1921 which excused her from keeping two terms of dinners."
I wasn't able to figure out the significance of "keeping two terms of
dinners". A web search didn't turn up much except quotes of the same
passage.
In order to becomea barrister you had to dine in the relevant Inn of Court
for, I think - two years (6 terms). The lady in question only had to pay
for 4 terms worth.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
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