Discussion:
Were Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty ever inherited?
(too old to reply)
Dingbat
2019-12-03 07:35:56 UTC
Permalink
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent

Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?

* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
Hepburn's paintings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Horace LaBadie
2019-12-03 12:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Dingbat
2019-12-03 12:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
Spains Harden
2019-12-03 13:17:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
Why wouldn't they? People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-03 13:25:55 UTC
Permalink
On 03/12/2019 13:17, Spains Harden wrote:
<snip>
Post by Spains Harden
People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
It depends on whether they're sharp or serious.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Spains Harden
2019-12-03 13:54:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Spains Harden
People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
It depends on whether they're sharp or serious.
I seem to have fallen upon biblical times today - because I
can't understand anyone. Have you all gone cryptic? The Welsh
"go to" twice in this passage is probably not accidental:

Genesis 11:1-9 King James Version (KJV)

11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that
they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and
burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime
had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which
the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all
one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be
restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of
all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did
there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did
the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+11%3A1-9&version=KJV>
Dingbat
2019-12-06 01:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Spains Harden
People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
It depends on whether they're sharp or serious.
I seem to have fallen upon biblical times today - because I
can't understand anyone. Have you all gone cryptic? The Welsh
Ah, so Owen Tudor did leave his mark!:->
Post by Spains Harden
Genesis 11:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that
they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and
burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime
had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which
the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all
one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be
restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of
all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did
there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did
the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+11%3A1-9&version=KJV>
Dingbat
2019-12-06 03:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Spains Harden
People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
It depends on whether they're sharp or serious.
I seem to have fallen upon biblical times today - because I
can't understand anyone. Have you all gone cryptic? The Welsh
Ah, so Owen Tudor did leave his mark!:->
Mentioning that Welsh ancestor of British royalty reminds me of an old meaning of the word SEWER:

The sixteenth-century Welsh chronicler Elis Gruffydd noted that Owen
Tudor was a SEWER and servant of Henry V's widow Catherine of Valois.
A SEWER's job was to place dishes on the dining table and taste them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Tudor
Post by Dingbat
Post by Spains Harden
Genesis 11:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that
they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and
burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime
had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which
the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all
one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be
restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of
all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did
there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did
the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+11%3A1-9&version=KJV>
Dingbat
2019-12-07 10:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Spains Harden
People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
It depends on whether they're sharp or serious.
I seem to have fallen upon biblical times today - because I
can't understand anyone. Have you all gone cryptic? The Welsh
Genesis 11:1-9 King James Version (KJV)
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and
burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime
had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower,
whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest
we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+11%3A3-4&version=KJV>
A Jewish friend provided the English translation that Chabad purveys:

3 And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and fire them thoroughly"; so the bricks were to them for stones, and the clay was to them for mortar.

4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered upon the face of the entire earth."

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8175

Does "go to" still have this idiomatic use (or this calque from Welsh)
when Welsh people speak English, especially those Welsh (if any) who
speak English as a 2nd language?
Dingbat
2019-12-03 14:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
Why wouldn't they? People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
Then, is it because children stopped imitating their parents that these
are little spoken today?
Spains Harden
2019-12-03 15:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
C accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
Why wouldn't they? People speak the dialect of their surroundings. If
they are surrounded by Mid-Atlantic/Dainty-speakers, what other accent
are they going to have?
Then, is it because children stopped imitating their parents that these
are little spoken today?
Nothing is less cool than talking like your parents. In BrE the
"Mid-Atlantic" accent was a pseudo-accent adopted by radio DJ's
trying to escape from that. Dave Lee Travis was the worst perpetrator.

His career was brought to a spectacular halt by this Mid-Atlantic
DJ duo. I have posted this YouTube link before:


Horace LaBadie
2019-12-03 14:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and imitating.
Cheryl
2019-12-03 14:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and imitating.
I had never heard of Canadian Dainty English, probably because it seems
to have fallen out of use before I was born. It was fairly common in my
youth for people with strong local accents to take classes to minimize
their accents, but I think they mainly just aimed for a kind of generic
Canadian accent. I'm not sure because I never took such a class. I don't
think I had a strong accent, maybe because my father claimed he couldn't
understand us if we talked fast. He, in turn, was teased about his New
England accent, although it reduced as the years away from New England
increased.
--
Cheryl
Ross
2019-12-03 23:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and imitating.
I had never heard of Canadian Dainty English, probably because it seems
to have fallen out of use before I was born. It was fairly common in my
youth for people with strong local accents to take classes to minimize
their accents, but I think they mainly just aimed for a kind of generic
Canadian accent. I'm not sure because I never took such a class. I don't
think I had a strong accent, maybe because my father claimed he couldn't
understand us if we talked fast. He, in turn, was teased about his New
England accent, although it reduced as the years away from New England
increased.
--
Cheryl
I never heard of "Canadian Dainty" either. I wonder if
the term was coined by Jack Chambers, who has a story
to tell about it here?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-dainty-accent-canada-day-1.4167610

Vincent Massey is supposed to have been a prime example
of it.
It's certainly true that a British-tinged pronunciation
was common among, say, radio announcers, actors, some politicians, 50-100 years ago, as recordings show.
Likewise in New Zealand, though I don't think I've
previously heard any special term for it in either country.

In another thread I mentioned the three categories of
Australian accent: "Broad", "General" and "Cultivated".
A fourth category was sometimes added to these,
"Modified", which was even more RP-ish than Cultivated.
It prevailed in broadcasting until the 1980s, I believe.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-04 01:27:38 UTC
Permalink
In another thread I mentioned the three categories of Australian
accent: "Broad", "General" and "Cultivated". A fourth category was
sometimes added to these, "Modified", which was even more RP-ish than
Cultivated. It prevailed in broadcasting until the 1980s, I believe.
Australia's ABC expected all of its announcers to speak "ABC English", a
version of English that was inspired by BBC English and even had some
similarities to it. So careful was the corporation about "correct"
pronunciation that ABC English became the de facto standard for the most
respectable of Australian English. The ABC even had a special
pronunciation department that looked up the right way to pronounce
obscure words and things like foreign names.

None of this had a direct effect on commercial radio, which didn't feel
the same urge to have high standards. Commercial broadcasters were more
inclined to pick up Americanisms. Still, something rubbed off.

The easiest way to experience ABC English is to listen to old newsreels.

ABC English started to fade when budget cuts eliminated the research
departments, including the pronunciation group. More recently, the ABC
has become more open to hiring people of diverse ethnic backgrounds. One
example that occasionally amuses me is a reporter who has obviously
tried very hard to get rid of her Irish accent, but hasn't quite succeeded.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@aol.com
2019-12-04 02:19:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
In another thread I mentioned the three categories of Australian
accent: "Broad", "General" and "Cultivated". A fourth category was
sometimes added to these, "Modified", which was even more RP-ish than
Cultivated. It prevailed in broadcasting until the 1980s, I believe.
Australia's ABC expected all of its announcers to speak "ABC English",
Could be misinterpreted as "rudimentary English" out of Australia, though.
Post by Peter Moylan
a
version of English that was inspired by BBC English and even had some
similarities to it. So careful was the corporation about "correct"
pronunciation that ABC English became the de facto standard for the most
respectable of Australian English. The ABC even had a special
pronunciation department that looked up the right way to pronounce
obscure words and things like foreign names.
None of this had a direct effect on commercial radio, which didn't feel
the same urge to have high standards. Commercial broadcasters were more
inclined to pick up Americanisms. Still, something rubbed off.
The easiest way to experience ABC English is to listen to old newsreels.
ABC English started to fade when budget cuts eliminated the research
departments, including the pronunciation group. More recently, the ABC
has become more open to hiring people of diverse ethnic backgrounds. One
example that occasionally amuses me is a reporter who has obviously
tried very hard to get rid of her Irish accent, but hasn't quite succeeded.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-04 02:02:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Cheryl
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and imitating.
I had never heard of Canadian Dainty English, probably because it seems
to have fallen out of use before I was born. It was fairly common in my
youth for people with strong local accents to take classes to minimize
their accents, but I think they mainly just aimed for a kind of generic
Canadian accent. I'm not sure because I never took such a class. I don't
think I had a strong accent, maybe because my father claimed he couldn't
understand us if we talked fast. He, in turn, was teased about his New
England accent, although it reduced as the years away from New England
increased.
--
Cheryl
I never heard of "Canadian Dainty" either. I wonder if
the term was coined by Jack Chambers, who has a story
to tell about it here?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-dainty-accent-canada-day-1.4167610
Vincent Massey is supposed to have been a prime example
of it.
Christopher Plummer can still pull it off, I gather.
Post by Ross
It's certainly true that a British-tinged pronunciation
was common among, say, radio announcers, actors, some politicians, 50-100 years ago, as recordings show.
Likewise in New Zealand, though I don't think I've
previously heard any special term for it in either country.
In another thread I mentioned the three categories of
Australian accent: "Broad", "General" and "Cultivated".
A fourth category was sometimes added to these,
"Modified", which was even more RP-ish than Cultivated.
It prevailed in broadcasting until the 1980s, I believe.
There is a nice description of "Canadian Dainty", consistent
with your take, here:

https://canadianenglishling.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/a-few-dialects-of-canada/

It makes good reading out loud.

bill
RH Draney
2019-12-04 10:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
I never heard of "Canadian Dainty" either. I wonder if
the term was coined by Jack Chambers, who has a story
to tell about it here?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-dainty-accent-canada-day-1.4167610
Vincent Massey is supposed to have been a prime example
of it.
Christopher Plummer can still pull it off, I gather.
I think I can imagine the sound from that...would Walter Pidgeon have
been another example?...r
CDB
2019-12-04 14:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than
learned? The people that currently come to mind are
Katharine Hepburn* and Linda Evans. How did they get their
accents?
There are a few Dainty features in my English, acquired from my mother,
who might have picked them up in Australia or at the Ottawa Ladies'
College. I say "shejule", but my "tomahto" has an ash, not a prolonged
"a": [t@'m&to].

I noticed that Stursberg didn't prolong his "a"s where official BrE
would have done so. His "Nazi" was [n&tsi], not [nAtsi].
Post by Cheryl
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
* The thought came to me when I received this link to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian
Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and
imitating.
I had never heard of Canadian Dainty English, probably because it
seems to have fallen out of use before I was born. It was fairly
common in my youth for people with strong local accents to take
classes to minimize their accents, but I think they mainly just
aimed for a kind of generic Canadian accent. I'm not sure because
I never took such a class. I don't think I had a strong accent,
maybe because my father claimed he couldn't understand us if we
talked fast. He, in turn, was teased about his New England accent,
although it reduced as the years away from New England increased.
I never heard of "Canadian Dainty" either. I wonder if the term was
coined by Jack Chambers, who has a story to tell about it here?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-dainty-accent-canada-day-1.4167610
In "Anglo-Canadian", the poem quoted in the article, Layton wasn't
mocking Canadian Dainty as such. His intention was to trash Peter
Whalley, a professor of English and former Rhodes Scholar who had given
one of his books a bad review.

Doctor Whalley had a somewhat English accent and a dainty habit or two
(handkerchief tucked in sleeve, frex), but he was a very decent man and
not at all deliberately affected, although no doubt Oxford had made an
impression.

[snip we must, apparently]
Ross
2019-12-06 02:35:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than
learned? The people that currently come to mind are
Katharine Hepburn* and Linda Evans. How did they get their
accents?
There are a few Dainty features in my English, acquired from my mother,
who might have picked them up in Australia or at the Ottawa Ladies'
College. I say "shejule", but my "tomahto" has an ash, not a prolonged
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-06 16:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
What about -dy- vs. -j- in the middle?
Ross
2019-12-06 19:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
What about -dy- vs. -j- in the middle?
I think it went with other words having such a sequence
(produce, graduate, etc.) -- a distinct -dy- would be
very formal, perhaps even Dainty.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-06 20:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
What about -dy- vs. -j- in the middle?
I think it went with other words having such a sequence
(produce, graduate, etc.) -- a distinct -dy- would be
very formal, perhaps even Dainty.
Both n. and v. "produce" have -d-!
Ross
2019-12-07 00:36:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
What about -dy- vs. -j- in the middle?
I think it went with other words having such a sequence
(produce, graduate, etc.) -- a distinct -dy- would be
very formal, perhaps even Dainty.
Both n. and v. "produce" have -d-!
For you, yes. But you say "dook", "nooz" etc.
So you have -j- in "graduate" (n,v)? I don't think
anybody says "gradooate", do they?
So does the dy > j fusion render words like this immune
from the general loss of /y/ after the apicals? Or
is it a matter of stress?
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-07 13:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism.
I heard both (sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there
was any difference associated, it might have been
Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-). Perhaps some people
worried about which was more correct. I understand
that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman
says that in the early 20th century BC English was
more British-influenced than that of Central Canada.
So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit Dainty.
What about -dy- vs. -j- in the middle?
I think it went with other words having such a sequence
(produce, graduate, etc.) -- a distinct -dy- would be
very formal, perhaps even Dainty.
Both n. and v. "produce" have -d-!
For you, yes. But you say "dook", "nooz" etc.
So you have -j- in "graduate" (n,v)? I don't think
yes (not -dy-)
Post by Ross
anybody says "gradooate", do they?
doubt it. But cf. situate, where -ty- is "dainty" and -ch- is normal.
Post by Ross
So does the dy > j fusion render words like this immune
from the general loss of /y/ after the apicals? Or
is it a matter of stress?
Not stress, because produce (n.) and produce (v.) are both -d-.

That's a curious example of two (synchronically, I presume) unrelated
words fitting the standard stress pattern of e.g. combat n./v.

CDB
2019-12-06 19:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather
than learned? The people that currently come to mind
are Katharine Hepburn* and Linda Evans. How did they
get their accents?
There are a few Dainty features in my English, acquired from my
mother, who might have picked them up in Australia or at the Ottawa
Ladies' College. I say "shejule", but my "tomahto" has an ash, not
I was surprised to see "shejule" given as a Daintyism. I heard both
(sh- and sk-) in my youth, and if there was any difference
associated, it might have been Canadian (sh-) vs American (sk-).
Perhaps some people worried about which was more correct. I
understand that the CBC insisted on sh-, at least at that time.
Clearly things were different in Ontario. Jean Barman says that in
the early 20th century BC English was more British-influenced than
that of Central Canada. So maybe they perceived all of us as a bit
Dainty.
Nobody told me it was dainty back then, or I would probably avoided it.
Older people in my family pronounced it that way, and IMObs young
people in Ottawa now mostly use the [sk] version.

That was my only reason for using the D-word. Maybe I mispoke myself.
--
Like, in the eye, all the time.
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-04 17:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Cheryl
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
No one has ever been born speaking the accent of his or her parents.
Did anyone enter school speaking Mid-Atlantic or Canadian Dainty English?
People acquire by listening to the people around them and imitating.
I had never heard of Canadian Dainty English, probably because it seems
to have fallen out of use before I was born. It was fairly common in my
youth for people with strong local accents to take classes to minimize
their accents, but I think they mainly just aimed for a kind of generic
Canadian accent. I'm not sure because I never took such a class. I don't
think I had a strong accent, maybe because my father claimed he couldn't
understand us if we talked fast. He, in turn, was teased about his New
England accent, although it reduced as the years away from New England
increased.
--
Cheryl
I never heard of "Canadian Dainty" either. I wonder if
the term was coined by Jack Chambers, who has a story
to tell about it here?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/canadian-dainty-accent-canada-day-1.4167610
I hear some of FDR in the clip.
Tristan Miller
2019-12-03 14:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Greetings.
Post by Dingbat
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Lovely paintings, those. ;)

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dingbat
2019-12-03 16:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Dingbat
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Lovely paintings, those. ;)
Oops; I'd duplicated the previous link. Here's the paintings' link:
http://phyllislovesclassicmovies.blogspot.com/2016/05/paintings-by-katharine-hepburn.html?m=1
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 16:11:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Mid-Atlantic accent and Canadian Dainty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
Were these accents/ dialects ever inherited rather than learned?
The people that currently come to mind are Katharine Hepburn*
and Linda Evans. How did they get their accents?
* The thought came to me when I received this link to Katharine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent
I know nothing of Linda Evans, but Katharine Hepburn spoke the perfectly
usual accent of western Connecticut that she grew up in -- akin to the
"Upper Class NYC" of e.g. FDR and Nelson Rockefeller -- and so did William
F. Buckley. NB both of them enhanced its characteristics for the stage.

"Mid-Atlantic" is the name of the artificial accent that develops in
people like Alistair Cooke and Robert McNeil, broadcasters whose career
spans the Atlantic. Cooke sounded English to Americans and, they say,
American to Englishpersons. I once heard an excerpt from one of his
wartime broadcasts (I don't suppose many have survived), and he sounded
much more English at that beginning of his career.
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