Discussion:
A vodka break
(too old to reply)
Katy Jennison
2020-01-13 14:30:23 UTC
Permalink
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.

Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.

Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '

Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
--
Katy Jennison
HVS
2020-01-13 14:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays,
under the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
"Your tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking".
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, "in the city's iconic sights"
'
"Drinking in the city's iconic sights" sounds OK, assuming that the
sights stock enough drink for a three-day binge...
Post by Katy Jennison
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
Katy Jennison
2020-01-13 15:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays,
under the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
"Your tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking".
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, "in the city's iconic sights"
'
"Drinking in the city's iconic sights" sounds OK, assuming that the
sights stock enough drink for a three-day binge...
They include the Kremlin, Red Square, and 'opulent Metro stations'. So
probably yes.
--
Katy Jennison
occam
2020-01-13 14:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-13 16:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays,
under the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
“Your tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights 
 '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
Vodeva; I'm more tempted to an Imperial Russian Stout; which was,
apparently, drunk by the Imperial Russians, but brewed in the UK.
(sadly not easily available here).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2020-01-13 19:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
There is a Russian brand of vodka - Kalischinikov - that is made in
Udmurtia where Mikhail Kalishnikov is from. That's Mikhail of the
AK-47 fame. It's also where my daughter-in-law is from.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2020-01-13 20:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
There is a Russian brand of vodka - Kalischinikov - that is made in
Udmurtia where Mikhail Kalishnikov is from. That's Mikhail of the
AK-47 fame. It's also where my daughter-in-law is from.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
That would be Kalashnikov, I guess. He apparently
spent most of his career in Udmurtia, though he
was born and grew up in Siberia.

Don't suppose your d-i-l would be ethnically Udmurt?
They speak a Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language. But even in
Udmurtia they're outnumbered by Russians.
Tony Cooper
2020-01-13 20:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
There is a Russian brand of vodka - Kalischinikov - that is made in
Udmurtia where Mikhail Kalishnikov is from. That's Mikhail of the
AK-47 fame. It's also where my daughter-in-law is from.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
That would be Kalashnikov, I guess. He apparently
spent most of his career in Udmurtia, though he
was born and grew up in Siberia.
Don't suppose your d-i-l would be ethnically Udmurt?
No, she is not.
Post by Ross
They speak a Uralic (Finno-Ugric) language. But even in
Udmurtia they're outnumbered by Russians.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Spains Harden
2020-01-13 20:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
There is a Russian brand of vodka - Kalischinikov - that is made in
Udmurtia where Mikhail Kalishnikov is from. That's Mikhail of the
AK-47 fame. It's also where my daughter-in-law is from.
And considered his AK47 to be (like the Colt) a peacemaker. These
things work both ways.
occam
2020-01-14 09:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow!  I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Or maybe they had a selection of vodkas, each named after the city's
iconic sights: Red Square Vodka, Kremlin vodka, Lenin Mausoleum vodka,
Bolshoi Theatre vodka...
There is a Russian brand of vodka - Kalischinikov - that is made in
Udmurtia where Mikhail Kalishnikov is from. That's Mikhail of the
AK-47 fame. It's also where my daughter-in-law is from.
There is another genuine brand of vodka named after another Michail -
Gorbachev. Taken in the right spirit, I understands it can lead to
openness and perestroika.

https://wodkablog.com/general/test-of-vodka-gorbachev/

https://www.supermercadorazia.com.br/produto/vodka-perestroika-980ml
Peter Moylan
2020-01-13 15:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays,
under the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
“Your tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
The Russians I have known would have considered three days' drinking
perfectly normal. They think that vodka is antifreeze.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2020-01-13 23:24:04 UTC
Permalink
The Russians I have known would have considered
three days' drinking perfectly normal.
Joke not about it. Self-destruction is not normal
at all and I am glad there are less drunks and
chronic alcoholics now than twenty years ago. Most
the chronic alcoholics in my multi-apartment build-
ing have died.
In the German language group, there just was a question about the
difference in life expectance between men and women, so I checked some
lists. Russia and some neighboring countries are still quite out of the
norm, with the difference being 10-12 years, and alcohol is a big
factor there. Probably smoking, too.

In the rich countries of Western Europe/North America/Oceania as well
as East Asia, the difference is 3-6 years.
--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-13 23:59:25 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:24:04 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The Russians I have known would have considered
three days' drinking perfectly normal.
Joke not about it. Self-destruction is not normal
at all and I am glad there are less drunks and
chronic alcoholics now than twenty years ago. Most
the chronic alcoholics in my multi-apartment build-
ing have died.
In the German language group, there just was a question about the
difference in life expectance between men and women, so I checked some
lists. Russia and some neighboring countries are still quite out of the
norm, with the difference being 10-12 years, and alcohol is a big
factor there. Probably smoking, too.
In the rich countries of Western Europe/North America/Oceania as well
as East Asia, the difference is 3-6 years.
Aren't Germans quite high up on the beer-drinking index; I guess vodka
trumps that. Is it true that Asians [AIUI roughly "Asians=East Asians,
not those from the Indian subcontinent] are (racial slur alert) less able
to break down alcohol? (could this be related to lactase production in
adults? I CBA to google it)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2020-01-14 04:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:24:04 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The Russians I have known would have considered
three days' drinking perfectly normal.
Joke not about it. Self-destruction is not normal
at all and I am glad there are less drunks and
chronic alcoholics now than twenty years ago. Most
the chronic alcoholics in my multi-apartment build-
ing have died.
In the German language group, there just was a question about the
difference in life expectance between men and women, so I checked some
lists. Russia and some neighboring countries are still quite out of the
norm, with the difference being 10-12 years, and alcohol is a big
factor there. Probably smoking, too.
In the rich countries of Western Europe/North America/Oceania as well
as East Asia, the difference is 3-6 years.
Aren't Germans quite high up on the beer-drinking index; I guess vodka
trumps that.
I would think so. Also, Germans don't do particularly well within the
group I named.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Is it true that Asians [AIUI roughly "Asians=East Asians,
not those from the Indian subcontinent] are (racial slur alert) less able
to break down alcohol?
True, such genetics is common there.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
(could this be related to lactase production in
adults? I CBA to google it)
I never heard of a connection between the two.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-14 10:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:24:04 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The Russians I have known would have considered
three days' drinking perfectly normal.
Joke not about it. Self-destruction is not normal
at all and I am glad there are less drunks and
chronic alcoholics now than twenty years ago. Most
the chronic alcoholics in my multi-apartment build-
ing have died.
In the German language group, there just was a question about the
difference in life expectance between men and women, so I checked some
lists. Russia and some neighboring countries are still quite out of the
norm, with the difference being 10-12 years, and alcohol is a big
factor there. Probably smoking, too.
In the rich countries of Western Europe/North America/Oceania as well
as East Asia, the difference is 3-6 years.
Aren't Germans quite high up on the beer-drinking index; I guess vodka
trumps that. Is it true that Asians [AIUI roughly "Asians=East Asians,
not those from the Indian subcontinent] are (racial slur alert) less able
to break down alcohol? (could this be related to lactase production in
adults? I CBA to google it)
Yes, but only some of them. They lack an enzyme in the breakdown chain.
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-14 20:13:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, January 14, 2020 at 3:36:37 AM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:

[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-14 22:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
Quinn C
2020-01-14 22:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Ross
2020-01-15 00:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Tony Cooper
2020-01-15 02:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Floyd Davidson of Barrow, Alaska? A very competent photographer and
frequent poster in the photo groups. Dropped into aue sometimes. Used
to have a website at http://apaflo.com, but that domain name is now
available for purchase.

Very opinionated on any topic and dismissive of contrary opinions.
But, quite often his opinion was spot-on.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2020-01-15 05:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Floyd Davidson of Barrow, Alaska? A very competent photographer and
frequent poster in the photo groups. Dropped into aue sometimes. Used
to have a website at http://apaflo.com, but that domain name is now
available for purchase.
Very opinionated on any topic and dismissive of contrary opinions.
But, quite often his opinion was spot-on.
That sounds right. I should say that, apart from that
one point, I remember him as a generally reasonable and
well-informed contributor to whatever group it was.
Not one of the cranks.
Do you happen to know the nature of his connection to
Native Alaskans?
Tony Cooper
2020-01-15 07:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Floyd Davidson of Barrow, Alaska? A very competent photographer and
frequent poster in the photo groups. Dropped into aue sometimes. Used
to have a website at http://apaflo.com, but that domain name is now
available for purchase.
Very opinionated on any topic and dismissive of contrary opinions.
But, quite often his opinion was spot-on.
That sounds right. I should say that, apart from that
one point, I remember him as a generally reasonable and
well-informed contributor to whatever group it was.
Not one of the cranks.
Do you happen to know the nature of his connection to
Native Alaskans?
I can't speak with confidence on this. I *think* he was an indigenous
person, but I won't swear to it.

I found a thread in rec.photo.digital in April 2015 where Floyd, Don
Phillipson, Paul, and I are all contributors. Floyd signs as Floyd
L. Davidson, Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska). It links to the apaflo page
mentioned above.

Ukpeagvik is a Alaska Native Village corporation, but it's also the
native name for Barrow and means "the place where we hunt snowy owls".

Certainly he had a connection. This is his post of the FAQ of
soc.culture.native:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/native-faq/
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-15 14:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
The word is in bad odour because Joseph Greenberg used (invented?) it
to name the immense superphylum in which he classed every American
language (from Hudson Bay to Tierra del Fuego) except the Na-Dene
and the Eskimo-Aleut phyla. (Edward Sapir had proposed six phyla
just for North America, and those had never been generally accepted
despite his unparalleled authority.)
I doubt that Greenberg's use would skunk the use outside of
linguistics. Anthropologists have used "Amerindian" long before that.
OED quotes start in 1899, both as a noun and as an adjective.
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Not because Greenberg made it clear that Eskimo-Aleut wasn't included
in Amerind?
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-15 15:56:14 UTC
Permalink
On 1/14/20 5:18 PM, Ross wrote:

[Amerindian]
Post by Ross
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Outside Guyana. I wonder whether he objected to the indigenous peoples
of Guyana's use of it about themselves, as in the "Amerindian Peoples'
Association of Guyana". (I don't expect you know.)

Two objections to "Amerindian" that seem reasonable to me are that the
people it refers to have nothing to do with India, and that outside
Guyana they seldom or never use the word.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2020-01-16 00:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[Amerindian]
Post by Ross
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Outside Guyana. I wonder whether he objected to the indigenous peoples
of Guyana's use of it about themselves, as in the "Amerindian Peoples'
Association of Guyana". (I don't expect you know.)
Two objections to "Amerindian" that seem reasonable to me are that the
people it refers to have nothing to do with India,
You could object to the "Amer-" part on similar grounds.

and that outside
Post by Jerry Friedman
Guyana they seldom or never use the word.
--
Jerry Friedman
But what do they use? Mostly it's used in large-scale
discussions of genetics/linguistics/culture. Those
few Amerindians who do take part in such discussions
may use the term. In political/social discussions
ranging over the entire hemisphere, there are other
expressions available, some already mentioned.
("Indigenous peoples of the Americas", or whatever.)
I can't see its infrequency of use by the people so designated as an objection.
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-17 05:01:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
[Amerindian]
Post by Ross
There was a poster years ago (on either sci.lang or
sci.archaeology or both), a fellow from Alaska who
was either indigenous or had close ties with
indigenous people, who strongly objected to it, but
was not very successful at explaining why. My guess
was that it was because of a general dislike of
anthropologists and linguists, the people who
most use the word.
Outside Guyana. I wonder whether he objected to the indigenous peoples
of Guyana's use of it about themselves, as in the "Amerindian Peoples'
Association of Guyana". (I don't expect you know.)
Two objections to "Amerindian" that seem reasonable to me are that the
people it refers to have nothing to do with India,
You could object to the "Amer-" part on similar grounds.
and that outside
Post by Jerry Friedman
Guyana they seldom or never use the word.
--
Jerry Friedman
But what do they use?
Oddly enough, while looking at something else, I came across a Native
American named Sam Morningstar who is interested in linguistics, as you
can see from his Quora post about why Michif and Maltese are his
favorite languages.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-linguistically-interesting-language-you-know-of

Google suggests that he doesn't use "Amerindian". Here you can see him
using "Native American", "Native" (as an adjective), "tribal", and the
fixed phrase "Indian Country".

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-feel-ashamed-about-the-Holocaust-but-not-about-the-genocide-of-the-Native-Americans

My friend and former colleague Steve Fadden, a Mohawk and an
anthropologist, also doesn't use "Amerindian" anywhere Google can find
out about it.
Post by Ross
Mostly it's used in large-scale
discussions of genetics/linguistics/culture. Those
few Amerindians who do take part in such discussions
may use the term.
They may. Jan could tell us what my sample of two says in Bayesian
terms. Actually, I could, but not at 10 PM.
Post by Ross
In political/social discussions
ranging over the entire hemisphere, there are other
expressions available, some already mentioned.
("Indigenous peoples of the Americas", or whatever.)
I can't see its infrequency of use by the people so designated as an objection.
I think it's polite, and I'm not the only one, to refer to groups of
people by the terms they use when speaking the same language. Within
reason, e.g., not "REALTOR".
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-15 14:43:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.

But "American Indian" remains in major use in the US because it's the
term used in literally thousands of laws over the past 230 years.
b***@shaw.ca
2020-01-15 20:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.

bill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But "American Indian" remains in major use in the US because it's the
term used in literally thousands of laws over the past 230 years.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-15 22:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque
of York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st
century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.
I think she used both the noun and the adjective, but these days
everything's on PowerPoint, so no handout!

There have been two Royal Commissions recently and they were concerned
almost entirely with French vs. English.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But "American Indian" remains in major use in the US because it's the
term used in literally thousands of laws over the past 230 years.
John Varela
2020-01-16 22:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.
No one seems to have considered the use of "autocthon".
Post by b***@shaw.ca
bill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But "American Indian" remains in major use in the US because it's the
term used in literally thousands of laws over the past 230 years.
--
John Varela
Adam Funk
2020-01-17 15:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.
No one seems to have considered the use of "autocthon".
Too hard to spell, & people might think it has something to do with
the Old Gods.
Post by John Varela
Post by b***@shaw.ca
bill
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But "American Indian" remains in major use in the US because it's the
term used in literally thousands of laws over the past 230 years.
--
What an enormous thrill it would be for an Angel to kick Mick Jagger's
teeth down his throat.
---Rolling Stone, 21 January 1970
Quinn C
2020-01-17 20:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by John Varela
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.
No one seems to have considered the use of "autocthon".
Too hard to spell,
As John's attempt illustrates.
Post by Adam Funk
& people might think it has something to do with
the Old Gods.
In French, "autochthone" is used quite a bit.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
John Varela
2020-01-18 00:07:43 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:28:12 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by John Varela
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
Was it ever?
Post by Jerry Friedman
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
Native American (US); First Nations (Canada); Indigenous Peoples (Canada);
Aborigines (coming into use in Canada). Source: ILA talk by Eve Haque of
York University, Toronto, on Canadian language policy in the 21st century.
I have never heard or read "aborigine" used in Canadian English. It is
associated exclusively with Australian usage, in my experience.
You might be thinking of "aboriginals" or aboriginal peoples,
which I do encountered from time to time.
No one seems to have considered the use of "autocthon".
Too hard to spell,
As John's attempt illustrates.
Lost an H, didn't I? But you knew what I meant and that's what
counts.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
& people might think it has something to do with
the Old Gods.
In French, "autochthone" is used quite a bit.
--
John Varela
RH Draney
2020-01-15 22:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-15 23:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-16 11:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-16 13:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,
Quite a few sports broadcasters won't say the team's name -- they'll
say things like "DC's NFL team" instead.
John Varela
2020-01-16 22:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,
This has been going on for years, maybe a decade or more. Many
people feel that "redskins" is an ethnic slur, and many don't care.
A few people have asked some actual Native Americans what they
think, with mixed results. The owner of the team refuses to change
the nickname. The Washington Post continues to use the nickname,
but regularly publishes letters to the Editor objecting to its use.

The team's fight song goes

Hail to the Redskins!
Hail victo-ree!
Braves on the warpath
Fight for old D.C.

Personally, I prefer "Amerindians" but that wouldn't scan.
--
John Varela
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-17 14:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,
This has been going on for years, maybe a decade or more. Many
people feel that "redskins" is an ethnic slur, and many don't care.
A few people have asked some actual Native Americans what they
think, with mixed results. The owner of the team refuses to change
the nickname. The Washington Post continues to use the nickname,
but regularly publishes letters to the Editor objecting to its use.
Looks like a milder form of the Dutch 'Black Pete' discussions,

Jan
Adam Funk
2020-01-17 15:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,
This has been going on for years, maybe a decade or more. Many
people feel that "redskins" is an ethnic slur, and many don't care.
A few people have asked some actual Native Americans what they
think, with mixed results. The owner of the team refuses to change
the nickname. The Washington Post continues to use the nickname,
but regularly publishes letters to the Editor objecting to its use.
Looks like a milder form of the Dutch 'Black Pete' discussions,
Just get a Krampus --- not many people will object to demon-facing.
--
It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a
phonograph, or a telephone or any other important thing --- and the
last man gets the credit and we forget the others. ---Mark Twain
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-18 21:42:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by John Varela
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the
U.S., as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in
years or heard it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
It's still acceptable when you're buying peanuts....r
Or describing the contents of a mohel's carry-all.
I have remembered my source.
There was something in the news sometime ago
about 'Washington Redskins' being, or not being acceptable,
This has been going on for years, maybe a decade or more. Many
people feel that "redskins" is an ethnic slur, and many don't care.
A few people have asked some actual Native Americans what they
think, with mixed results. The owner of the team refuses to change
the nickname. The Washington Post continues to use the nickname,
but regularly publishes letters to the Editor objecting to its use.
Looks like a milder form of the Dutch 'Black Pete' discussions,
Just get a Krampus --- not many people will object to demon-facing.
Sinterklaas is all nice and friendly these days.
Pete is no longer a Sack Man, and he doesn't carry a birch rod either,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-16 17:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
Jan
(who thinks to have heard that 'redskins' won't do anymore)
<smile>, but it's "thinks he has heard".
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-16 17:42:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
...

That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Young
2020-01-16 18:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
[East Asians having trouble metabolizing alcohol]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Same for most Amerindians, (is that still PC?)
It is in Guyana, I kind of think. It's always been rare in the U.S.,
as far as I know, and I don't believe I've seen it in years or heard
it ever.
Then what are the generally acceptable terms?
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-16 21:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Adam Funk
2020-01-17 15:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
--
they're OK, the last days of May
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-17 16:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.

Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."

The prehistories of NYC usually say "the original inhabitants." (The
autonym for Delaware is Leni Lenape or just Lenape.)
Adam Funk
2020-01-17 16:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The prehistories of NYC usually say "the original inhabitants." (The
autonym for Delaware is Leni Lenape or just Lenape.)
(I just remembered that the Delaware tribe extended considerably
further north than the future state of Delaware.)
--
Consistently separating words by spaces became a general custom about
the tenth century A. D., and lasted until about 1957, when FORTRAN
abandoned the practice. ---Sun FORTRAN Reference Manual
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-17 17:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.

We are talking about the word "native."
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Further data would be required.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The prehistories of NYC usually say "the original inhabitants." (The
autonym for Delaware is Leni Lenape or just Lenape.)
(I just remembered that the Delaware tribe extended considerably
further north than the future state of Delaware.)
Greater New Jersey, actually.
Adam Funk
2020-01-17 19:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Further data would be required.
No further data is necessary. We know enough from previous
discussions with Jerry to safely assume no offensive intent on his
part.
--
Corporations are neither physical nor metaphysical phenomena. They are
socioeconomic ploys — legally enacted game-playing — agreed upon only
between overwhelmingly powerful socioeconomic individuals and by them
imposed upon human society and its all unwitting members.
---Buckminster Fuller
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-17 20:37:41 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Further data would be required.
No further data is necessary. We know enough from previous
discussions with Jerry to safely assume no offensive intent on his
part.
Thank you.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-17 21:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
We were talking about the word "native."
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Further data would be required.
No further data is necessary. We know enough from previous
discussions with Jerry to safely assume no offensive intent on his
part.
What does that tell us about how the friend describes himself, which was
what you desiderated?
John Varela
2020-01-18 00:25:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:24:46 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Again, "native", like "Jew" (or "gay" etc.) is one of the words that's
problematic to use as a noun. "New Yorker" (or e.g. "American") is not.
I think the closest to an adjectival equivalent of "New Yorker" would
be the attributive (some say "adjectival", as recently discussed) use
of "New York", as in "a New York Jew".
"New Yorky" is sometimes used as the adjective.
--
John Varela
Ross
2020-01-18 00:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:24:46 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Again, "native", like "Jew" (or "gay" etc.) is one of the words that's
problematic to use as a noun. "New Yorker" (or e.g. "American") is not.
I think the closest to an adjectival equivalent of "New Yorker" would
be the attributive (some say "adjectival", as recently discussed) use
of "New York", as in "a New York Jew".
"New Yorky" is sometimes used as the adjective.
--
John Varela
But, like "New Yorkish", that is too likely to be taken
as referring to style rather than origin.
b***@shaw.ca
2020-01-18 06:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by John Varela
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:24:46 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Again, "native", like "Jew" (or "gay" etc.) is one of the words that's
problematic to use as a noun. "New Yorker" (or e.g. "American") is not.
I think the closest to an adjectival equivalent of "New Yorker" would
be the attributive (some say "adjectival", as recently discussed) use
of "New York", as in "a New York Jew".
"New Yorky" is sometimes used as the adjective.
But, like "New Yorkish", that is too likely to be taken
as referring to style rather than origin.
"New Yorkerly" speaks for itself.

bill
Tony Cooper
2020-01-18 13:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
Post by John Varela
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:24:46 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Again, "native", like "Jew" (or "gay" etc.) is one of the words that's
problematic to use as a noun. "New Yorker" (or e.g. "American") is not.
I think the closest to an adjectival equivalent of "New Yorker" would
be the attributive (some say "adjectival", as recently discussed) use
of "New York", as in "a New York Jew".
"New Yorky" is sometimes used as the adjective.
But, like "New Yorkish", that is too likely to be taken
as referring to style rather than origin.
"New Yorkerly" speaks for itself.
New Yawkers speak for themselves.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2020-01-18 16:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
Post by John Varela
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:24:46 UTC, Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
That's why I prefer the first example.
We are talking about the word "native."
You compared it to "is a Jew" vs "is Jewish" (& I generally agree),
but "a New Yorker" doesn't (AFAIK) have an adjectival equivalent. The
"native" in "a native New Yorker" is a modifier with "New Yorker" as
its target; the structure of the whole NP is the same as "an observant
Jew" (or "secular" or "converted").
Again, "native", like "Jew" (or "gay" etc.) is one of the words that's
problematic to use as a noun. "New Yorker" (or e.g. "American") is not.
I think the closest to an adjectival equivalent of "New Yorker" would
be the attributive (some say "adjectival", as recently discussed) use
of "New York", as in "a New York Jew".
"New Yorky" is sometimes used as the adjective.
But, like "New Yorkish", that is too likely to be taken
as referring to style rather than origin.
"New Yorkerly" speaks for itself.
New Yawkers speak for themselves.
I can't imagine anyone saying "Yawker." I think you mean Noo Yawkuhs.
--
Ken
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-18 21:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
"New Yorkerly" speaks for itself.
Did your newspaper ever allow you to write in a New Yorkerly style?
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-17 20:36:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...

Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
--
Jerry Friedman
charles
2020-01-17 20:48:40 UTC
Permalink
In article <qvt5sa$5bm$***@news.albasani.net>, Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
For 24 years, I worked with someone - it wsn't until after we both retired
and I saw her Facebook pages that I realised she was Jewish, It hadn't been
relevant at work.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Tony Cooper
2020-01-17 21:51:07 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:48:40 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
[Snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
For 24 years, I worked with someone - it wsn't until after we both retired
and I saw her Facebook pages that I realised she was Jewish, It hadn't been
relevant at work.
Before I was married, I lived with two Jewish roommates for three
years. When it became known that I was going to get married, and in a
Catholic church, the long-time girlfriend of one of the roommates
expressed surprise that I *wasn't* Jewish. She knew I was dating a
Catholic, but thought I was a Jew dating a shiksa.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2020-01-17 20:53:53 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:36:25 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
I take it he never said "I'm Mohawish".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
pensive hamster
2020-01-17 21:40:35 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
I take it he never said "I'm Mohawish".
Shouldn't that be Mohawkish?

Jonathan Miller used to say "I’m not really a Jew, you know, just Jew-ish.”

https://forward.com/culture/435679/remembering-the-ultimate-jewish-polymath-jonathan-miller/

'Jonathan Wolfe Miller, the English Jewish author, stage director, and
medical doctor, who died on November 27 at age 85, proved that
issues of identity can transcend conscious denials.

'During youthful appearances in the influential satirical review "Beyond
the Fringe," Miller played a character who announced: "I’m not really a
Jew, you know, just Jew-ish."

'The reductive caveat was repeated by Miller himself in a series of
television interviews, where his sometimes convoluted verbosity
staggered even the most pretentious talk show hosts. Miller specified
that he was not interested in the Jewish religion, culture, or the state of
Israel; he only identified himself as Jewish if anti-Semites were nearby. ...'
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-17 22:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
My section on Maya writing came back from one of my consultants with
"Spanish" changed to "Spaniard." That struck me as the same sort of
thing, so I googled and found a discussion where about haif the folk
said they didn't care and half said they disliked "Spaniard."

In general, noun forms are more common in negative comments than
adjective forms are. I don't know what a naive version of Linguistic
Relativity might have to do with it, but it's widely observable. Do you
say "Chinaman"? Do you say "She is a Chinese" or "She is Chinese"?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Exactly -- the adjective forms.
CDB
2020-01-18 15:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most
common on /Native America Calling/, which I listen to
once in a while. "Indian" and "American Indian"
don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe" and
"tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the
very careful and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word
"native" was taboo. I wouldn't even have been able to say
that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York --
it's that old adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew"
problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York"
would be a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a
noun in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as
opposed to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to
say "is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go
along with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the
belief you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely,
saying someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a
Jew is a more important thing about the person than being a
person.
My section on Maya writing came back from one of my consultants with
"Spanish" changed to "Spaniard." That struck me as the same sort of
thing, so I googled and found a discussion where about haif the folk
said they didn't care and half said they disliked "Spaniard."
In general, noun forms are more common in negative comments than
adjective forms are. I don't know what a naive version of Linguistic
Relativity might have to do with it, but it's widely observable. Do
you say "Chinaman"? Do you say "She is a Chinese" or "She is
Chinese"?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Exactly -- the adjective forms.
"Akwesasne" is a noun, I think (if that is a distinction his language
even makes). It's the name of a reserve on what would be a tripoint
(ON-QU-US) if it weren't for the St.Lawrence River. Whole lotta
smugglin' goin' on.

I suppose you could consider his use attributive.
Adam Funk
2020-01-18 17:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
My section on Maya writing came back from one of my consultants with
"Spanish" changed to "Spaniard." That struck me as the same sort of
thing, so I googled and found a discussion where about haif the folk
said they didn't care and half said they disliked "Spaniard."
In general, noun forms are more common in negative comments than
adjective forms are.
If there are statistics to back that up, it could be partly explained
by syntax: it's easier to stick an offensive adjective into "he's a
Jew" (or whatever) than into "he's Jewish".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what a naive version of Linguistic
Relativity might have to do with it, but it's widely observable. Do you
say "Chinaman"? Do you say "She is a Chinese" or "She is Chinese"?
--
Papa Hegel he say that all we learn from history is that we learn
nothing from history. I know people who can't even learn from what
happened this morning. Hegel must have been taking the long view.
---Chad C. Mulligan
Quinn C
2020-01-17 23:42:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
It's complicated. I don't think it has to have any specific meaning; in
any case, many people follow the rule "don't call a person 'a Jew', say
they're 'Jewish'" so it is a rule now.

I remember an anecdote I read; I don't know the exact time any more,
maybe 1970s.

A bunch of Jewish people in a public place, maybe an airport. Someone
points at them and says loudly - in German - "Jud! Jud!" An older Jew
(who had experienced the Nazi era) turns to his younger companion to
express his anger. To his surprise, the other is unfazed. "Aren't you
mad at those people?" - "Why? We are Jews, aren't we?"
--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03
Tak To
2020-01-18 07:22:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the belief
you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely, saying
someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a Jew is a
more important thing about the person than being a person.
It's complicated. I don't think it has to have any specific meaning; in
any case, many people follow the rule "don't call a person 'a Jew', say
they're 'Jewish'" so it is a rule now.
It seems that the decision of whether "a Jew" is offensive has
been taken out of the hands of the Jewish people. If I can
trust my daughters' observation, saying that someone is a Jew
will likely be perceived as antisemitic by the gentiles of
their generation.

This makes me wonder if the idea of "Chinaman" being racist
originated from outside the Chinese community.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB
2020-01-18 15:34:55 UTC
Permalink
[nationality: noun or adjective?]
Post by Quinn C
It's complicated. I don't think it has to have any specific
meaning; in any case, many people follow the rule "don't call a
person 'a Jew', say they're 'Jewish'" so it is a rule now.
It seems that the decision of whether "a Jew" is offensive has been
taken out of the hands of the Jewish people. If I can trust my
daughters' observation, saying that someone is a Jew will likely be
perceived as antisemitic by the gentiles of their generation.
This makes me wonder if the idea of "Chinaman" being racist
originated from outside the Chinese community.
"Zhongguoren"? But I think "a Chinese" is also frowned on.
Tak To
2020-01-18 19:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
[nationality: noun or adjective?]
Post by Quinn C
It's complicated. I don't think it has to have any specific
meaning; in any case, many people follow the rule "don't call a
person 'a Jew', say they're 'Jewish'" so it is a rule now.
It seems that the decision of whether "a Jew" is offensive has been
taken out of the hands of the Jewish people. If I can trust my
daughters' observation, saying that someone is a Jew will likely be
perceived as antisemitic by the gentiles of their generation.
This makes me wonder if the idea of "Chinaman" being racist
originated from outside the Chinese community.
"Zhongguoren"?
The early Chinese immigrants in the US were likely to call
themselves 唐人 <tang2 (as in Tang Dynasty) ren2>, or [hɔŋ22
ŋin22] in the Taishan dialect spoken by the majority of them.
The term 中國 <Zhong1 Guo2> has yet to be used for the name of
the country.

My point is that, in the environs of early Chinese immigrants
in the US, unless (1) "Chinese" (instead of "Chinaman") was
used by a noticeable portion of general population and (2)
there was an obvious correspondence between usage and
perceived racist attitude, the Chinese immigrants, with
their limited command of English, were not likely to conclude
that "Chinaman" per se was racist.
Post by CDB
But I think "a Chinese" is also frowned on.
Not that I know of, but I will ask my daughters what they
think.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB
2020-01-18 15:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most
common on /Native America Calling/, which I listen to
once in a while. "Indian" and "American Indian" don't
seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe" and "tribal"
are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very
careful and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word
"native" was taboo. I wouldn't even have been able to say
that I was a native of London.
I distinguish the capitalised and uncapitalised uses. I am a native
Canadian, but not a Canadian Native.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's
that old adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic
beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York"
would be a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a
noun in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as
opposed to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to
say "is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go
along with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the
belief you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely,
saying someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a
Jew is a more important thing about the person than being a person.
That use may be tainted by its similarity to the adjectival use of "Jew"
by people who think Jewishness is a bad thing. In some ways that
resembles the similar, relatively anodyne, use of "Democrat". Maybe the
usage-communities know each other.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Nowadays he might also be saying "Haudenosaunee", or Iroquois. While I
was checking the spelling of that word, WP told me that the particular
name for the Keepers of the Eastern Gate is "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka", but I
don't recall hearing it in the wild yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_people
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-18 16:18:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most
common on /Native America Calling/, which I listen to
once in a while.  "Indian" and "American Indian" don't
seem to get anyone into trouble.  "Tribe" and "tribal"
are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful and on
the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word
"native" was taboo. I wouldn't even have been able to say
that I was a native of London.
I distinguish the capitalised and uncapitalised uses.  I am a native
Canadian, but not a Canadian Native.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's
that old adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic
beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York"
would be a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh?  "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a
noun in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as
opposed to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to
say "is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go
along with it.
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the
belief you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely,
saying someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a
Jew is a more important thing about the person than being a person.
That use may be tainted by its similarity to the adjectival use of "Jew"
by people who think Jewishness is a bad thing.  In some ways that
resembles the similar, relatively anodyne, use of "Democrat".  Maybe the
usage-communities know each other.
Post by Jerry Friedman
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm.  Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne."  If so, I'd probably go along.
Nowadays he might also be saying "Haudenosaunee", or Iroquois.
...

I was mixed up. It was "Haudenosaunee". I remember being surprised
that the "s" was pronounced /S/. (That was a long time ago. I don't
see him that often these days.)

I got "Akwesasne" from this site, which I saw when I was looking for any
use of "Amerindian" by him. He's identified as "Steve Fadden (Akwesasne
Mohawk)".

https://www.archaeologicalconservancy.org/events/mother-earth-father-sky-2014-3/
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2020-01-18 18:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Nowadays he might also be saying "Haudenosaunee", or Iroquois. While I
was checking the spelling of that word, WP told me that the particular
name for the Keepers of the Eastern Gate is "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka", but I
don't recall hearing it in the wild yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_people
In circles that aspire to social justice in Montreal, it has become
common in recent years to precede events with an acknowledgement that
it is happening on traditional Kanien' keha:ka territory.

<https://www.concordia.ca/about/indigenous/territorial-acknowledgement.html>

I've heard similar announcements recently from other places, e.g. a
(non-indigenous) podcaster who referred to her home as "Dakota and
Anishinaabe territory now called Minneapolis".
--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
Quinn C
2020-01-18 18:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Nowadays he might also be saying "Haudenosaunee", or Iroquois. While I
was checking the spelling of that word, WP told me that the particular
name for the Keepers of the Eastern Gate is "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka", but I
don't recall hearing it in the wild yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_people
In circles that aspire to social justice in Montreal, it has become
common in recent years to precede events with an acknowledgement that
it is happening on traditional Kanien' keha:ka territory.
<https://www.concordia.ca/about/indigenous/territorial-acknowledgement.html>
I've heard similar announcements recently from other places, e.g. a
(non-indigenous) podcaster who referred to her home as "Dakota and
Anishinaabe territory now called Minneapolis".
Oh, and that type of person would call themself a "settler" (for what I
called "non-indigenous" above".)
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-18 22:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as "a
Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
...
Hm. Vague memories suggest that he might say "I'm Mohawk" or "I'm
Akwesasne." If so, I'd probably go along.
Nowadays he might also be saying "Haudenosaunee", or Iroquois. While I
was checking the spelling of that word, WP told me that the particular
name for the Keepers of the Eastern Gate is "Kanienʼkehá꞉ka", but I
don't recall hearing it in the wild yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohawk_people
In circles that aspire to social justice in Montreal, it has become
common in recent years to precede events with an acknowledgement that
it is happening on traditional Kanien' keha:ka territory.
<https://www.concordia.ca/about/indigenous/territorial-acknowledgement.html>
I've heard similar announcements recently from other places, e.g. a
(non-indigenous) podcaster who referred to her home as "Dakota and
Anishinaabe territory now called Minneapolis".
Christa Tippett has taken to ending her weekly program *On Being*
with the announcement that "On Being is produced on Lakota land,"
with a very foreign light-l and heavily aspirated k and t. It
started decades ago on Minnesota Public Radio, but that has changed
its name many times over the years. (She is insufferably earnest
and seems to whisper a lot and makes little encouraging noises as
her guest is speaking. But she's usually what's on the air when I
wake up on Sunday mornings. So I switch to AM for the occasionally
interesting *Latino USA* with Maria Inahosa, who is spelled Hinajosa.)
Tak To
2020-01-18 20:26:45 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
[...]
I don't mind "a Jew" at all, and I don't know any basis for the
belief you're talking about other than naive Whorfianism, namely,
saying someone is "a Jew" is supposed to somehow imply that being a
Jew is a more important thing about the person than being a person.
That use may be tainted by its similarity to the adjectival use of "Jew"
by people who think Jewishness is a bad thing.
Adjectival *and* nominal. In the mind of some people, the term
by itself is derogatory enough and needs no explanation. This
point was remarked by Jacobo Timerman in his memoir of anti-
semitism in Argentina.

Back to a previous context: The choice between using a demonym
and a demonymic adjective (sometimes different from the
adjective for the country or region) in English is very
eclectic. There is no general pattern. YMMV.
Post by CDB
In some ways that
resembles the similar, relatively anodyne, use of "Democrat". Maybe the
usage-communities know each other.
Similar yet different. There is no adjectival form of
"Democrat"; "Democratic" refers to the party and not the
members.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-18 22:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by CDB
In some ways that
resembles the similar, relatively anodyne, use of "Democrat". Maybe the
usage-communities know each other.
Similar yet different. There is no adjectival form of
"Democrat"; "Democratic" refers to the party and not the
members.
So we should call the bad guys "Republic congressmen," for instance?

Of course "Democratic" refers to individuals.

Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-18 21:58:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
I distinguish the capitalised and uncapitalised uses. I am a native
Canadian, but not a Canadian Native.
You'd have made your point if you'd written "I am a native Canadian,
but not a Native Canadian."
John Varela
2020-01-18 00:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Eh? "New Yorker" is a noun in the first example, "native" is a noun
in the second.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Why would "a Jew" or "a Mohawk" differ from "an American", "a
German", "a Greek", "a Presbyterian", or "a Catholic"?
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The prehistories of NYC usually say "the original inhabitants." (The
autonym for Delaware is Leni Lenape or just Lenape.)
(I just remembered that the Delaware tribe extended considerably
further north than the future state of Delaware.)
--
John Varela
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-18 18:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by Adam Funk
I've been led to believe that it's generally more considerate to say
"is Jewish/black/&c." than "is a Jew/&c.", so I generally go along
with it. But it's quite possible that his friend describes himself as
"a Mohawk", & in that case I think it's OK to imitate the usage.
Why would "a Jew" or "a Mohawk" differ from "an American", "a
German", "a Greek", "a Presbyterian", or "a Catholic"?
Because the alternatives are available for the former but not for
the latter.
Pat Durkin
2020-01-18 00:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
No, it just wouldn't be proper to use a noun at all.
Jerry's mention that his friend "is a Mohawk" bothered me, as opposed
to "is Mohawk."
But Jerry's use of "a Mohawk", was appositive in nature, and not declarative.
(copied directly:
"My friend and former colleague Steve Fadden, a Mohawk and an
anthropologist, also doesn't use "Amerindian" anywhere Google can find
out about it."

In my experience, if a tribal reference is known, Indians (as they generally call themselves) will use it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The prehistories of NYC usually say "the original inhabitants." (The
autonym for Delaware is Leni Lenape or just Lenape.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-17 16:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
That's just in the U.S., though, as PTD said.
In Africa, or at least when I lived there, the word "native" was taboo. I
wouldn't even have been able to say that I was a native of London.
I'm a native New Yorker, but not a native of New York -- it's that old
adjective/noun thing that makes "a Jew" problematic beside "Jewish."
Is the distinction you're making that a "native of New York" would be
a member of the Delaware tribe (for example)?
This seems to be a thread where we need to consult our Choctaw former
member: does anyone date to consult her?
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2020-01-17 17:05:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This seems to be a thread where we need to consult our Choctaw former
member: does anyone date to consult her?
I conjecture you meant to type 'dare', but what a giveaway!
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-17 18:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This seems to be a thread where we need to consult our Choctaw former
member: does anyone date to consult her?
I conjecture you meant to type 'dare', but what a giveaway!
Your conjecture is right!
--
athel
Tak To
2020-01-17 18:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[...]
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
Isn't "indigenous" a bit too close to "indigent"? If people can
object to "niggardly" ...
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-17 20:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Jerry Friedman
[...]
"Native American" or "Native" seems to be the most common on /Native
America Calling/, which I listen to once in a while. "Indian" and
"American Indian" don't seem to get anyone into trouble. "Tribe"
and "tribal" are around, and "indigenous" is used by the very careful
and on the left.
Isn't "indigenous" a bit too close to "indigent"? If people can
object to "niggardly" ...
You might thing so, but I haven't heard any objections (not that I
necessarily would) to "indigenous"--or "chicanery".
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-13 18:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Anyone who has seen heaps of drunks* in Moscow streets (and Metro
stations, for that matter) will feel that it was a very unfortunate
metaphor even when one knows what they were trying to say.

*When I saw the heaps of drunks in the centre of Stockholm and tried to
square the sight with the price of beer (let alone anything stronger)
in Sweden, I thought they must be owners of banks. However, I learned
that the truth was more boring: that they weren't Swedes at all, but
Finns who had done their drinking in the ferry. If I wanted to see
drunk Swedes I should go to Helsinki.

athel
Anton Shepelev
2020-01-13 21:11:33 UTC
Permalink
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't say
you weren't sober when you wrote it.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
Spains Harden
2020-01-13 21:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't say
you weren't sober when you wrote it.
"Should" is very normal BrE.
David Kleinecke
2020-01-13 21:22:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Anton Shepelev
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't say
you weren't sober when you wrote it.
"Should" is very normal BrE.
And as far west as California.
Anton Shepelev
2020-01-13 22:06:22 UTC
Permalink
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
[...]
I certainly read it as the "should" of recommenda-
tion, not the Fowlerian first-person equivalent of
"would". I could be wrong.
A recommendation to oneself? But does it work that
way:

If one wants to see drunk Swedes one should go to Helsinki. (OK)
If one wanted to see drunk Swedes one should go to Helsinki. (??)

The second sentence being a second conditional, its
main clause must be put in the past tense, but we
can't put the `should' of recommedation into the
past tense, whereas the Fowlerian `should' is the
past tense of `shall', i.e.:

If I want to see drunk Swedes I shall go to Helsinki.
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to Helsinki.

That is not how modern English does declines it.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-13 22:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I certainly read it as the "should" of recommenda-
tion, not the Fowlerian first-person equivalent of
"would". I could be wrong.
A recommendation to oneself? But does it work that
If one wants to see drunk Swedes one should go to Helsinki. (OK)
If one wanted to see drunk Swedes one should go to Helsinki. (??)
The second sentence being a second conditional, its
main clause must be put in the past tense, but we
can't put the `should' of recommedation into the
past tense, whereas the Fowlerian `should' is the
If I want to see drunk Swedes I shall go to Helsinki.
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to Helsinki.
That is not how modern English does declines it.
"Second conditional" is not a term used in English grammar.

Should have been "I should have gone to Helsinki."
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-14 06:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Anton Shepelev
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't say
you weren't sober when you wrote it.
"Should" is very normal BrE.
And as far west as California.
I certainly read it as the "should" of recommendation,
That's how I meant it.
not the Fowlerian
first-person equivalent of "would". I could be wrong.
--
athel
Anton Shepelev
2020-01-13 21:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't
say you weren't sober when you wrote it.
"Should" is very normal BrE.
I thought that in modern English `would' was the on-
ly choice in that sentence.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-14 06:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Shepelev
Post by Spains Harden
If I wanted to see drunk Swedes I should go to
Helsinki.
I welcome your Fowlerian `should'. Please don't
say you weren't sober when you wrote it.
"Should" is very normal BrE.
I thought that in modern English `would' was the on-
ly choice in that sentence.
You were wrong.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-14 09:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: "Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking".
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be
disappointed by the next line, "in the city's iconic sights'
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
Anyone who has seen heaps of drunks* in Moscow streets (and Metro
stations, for that matter) will feel that it was a very unfortunate
metaphor even when one knows what they were trying to say.
*When I saw the heaps of drunks in the centre of Stockholm and tried to
square the sight with the price of beer (let alone anything stronger)
in Sweden, I thought they must be owners of banks. However, I learned
that the truth was more boring: that they weren't Swedes at all, but
Finns who had done their drinking in the ferry. If I wanted to see
drunk Swedes I should go to Helsinki.
We'll see whether the EU will allow even more drunk Brits
by allowing them to have their tax-free ferries back.

Let's hope not,

Jan
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-01-14 23:09:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
*When I saw the heaps of drunks in the centre of Stockholm and tried to
square the sight with the price of beer (let alone anything stronger) in
Sweden, I thought they must be owners of banks. However, I learned that
the truth was more boring: that they weren't Swedes at all, but Finns
who had done their drinking in the ferry. If I wanted to see drunk
Swedes I should go to Helsinki.
Drunken Swedes are also a common sight in Elsinore (Helsingør, Denmark).
They will not be from Stockholm, though.

/Anders, Denmark.
Adam Funk
2020-01-14 12:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
stereotyping Russian life
;-)
Post by Katy Jennison
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
---Calvin
s***@gmail.com
2020-01-18 03:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
For an inspiring journey closer to (your) home:
<URL:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/horse-took-ride-bus-been-17587734>
I'm not sure alcohol was available en route.
/dps
Sam Plusnet
2020-01-18 18:50:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Katy Jennison
A brochure came through the door this morning from Saga Holidays, under
the title 'Inspiring Journeys by road, rail and water'.
Browsing idly through it, as one does, I was struck by this line: “Your
tour starts in Moscow with three days drinking”.
Wow! I staggered happily down this garden path, only to be disappointed
by the next line, “in the city's iconic sights … '
Perhaps they had an alcohol proof-reader.
<URL:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/horse-took-ride-bus-been-17587734>
I'm not sure alcohol was available en route.
They're like that in Cardiff.

I notice that no fares were collected from either the horse or the two
women who kept him company. Outrageous!
--
Sam Plusnet
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