Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

In that form, the "so" is not wanted. Some of the ways I'd consider
recasting the sentence:

Since it's a rather old version, I'm very confused on this requirement.

I'm very confused on this requrement since it's a rather old version.

It is confusing to deal with this requirement on older versions.

Note that I'd consider the original sentence and my first two rewrites
to be informal; fine for a blog or notes shared with other users, but
not appropriate for documentation.

/dps

--
But happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. One must have a reason
to 'be happy.'"
Viktor Frankl

RH Draney

2020-07-03 07:46:34 UTC

Post by Snidely

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

In that form, the "so" is not wanted. Some of the ways I'd consider
Since it's a rather old version, I'm very confused on this requirement.
I'm very confused on this requrement since it's a rather old version.
It is confusing to deal with this requirement on older versions.
Note that I'd consider the original sentence and my first two rewrites
to be informal; fine for a blog or notes shared with other users, but
not appropriate for documentation.

Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-03 09:40:38 UTC

Post by Snidely

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

In that form, the "so" is not wanted. Some of the ways I'd consider
Since it's a rather old version, I'm very confused on this

requirement.

Post by Snidely
I'm very confused on this requrement since it's a rather old version.
It is confusing to deal with this requirement on older versions.
Note that I'd consider the original sentence and my first two rewrites
to be informal; fine for a blog or notes shared with other users, but
not appropriate for documentation.

Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

So what?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Chrysi Cat

2020-07-03 09:44:04 UTC

Post by Snidely

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?

I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

RH Draney

2020-07-03 11:19:21 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...

Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself."
Contestant: "So I'm from Nebraska...."

....r

Peter Moylan

2020-07-03 12:40:53 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

One of my Walter Mitty dreams has me being interviewed by our public TV
network (ABC). When asked a question, I would nod my head up and down
for several seconds [1], and then say "So, absolutely". With that
response repeated for every question.

"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".

[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess that
the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on the message.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

occam

2020-07-03 12:59:55 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

One of my Walter Mitty dreams has me being interviewed by our public TV
network (ABC). When asked a question, I would nod my head up and down
for several seconds [1], and then say "So, absolutely". With that
response repeated for every question.
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".
[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess that
the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on the message.

The delay does not have so much to do with the speed of light as it has
to do with the 'dead time' required to bleep out any offensive language
when the broadcast is live. Absolutely so.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-03 13:16:04 UTC

Post by occam

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and
every independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm
from Nebraska...."

One of my Walter Mitty dreams has me being interviewed by our
public TV network (ABC). When asked a question, I would nod my head
up and down for several seconds [1], and then say "So, absolutely".
With that response repeated for every question.
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".
[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess
that the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on
the message.

The delay does not have so much to do with the speed of light as it
has to do with the 'dead time' required to bleep out any offensive
language when the broadcast is live. Absolutely so.

Thank you. I had forgotten about the bleep approach. They're probably
worried about one of their distant reporters saying "So, fucking
absolutely".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-03 13:16:15 UTC

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess that
the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on the message.

The delay does not have so much to do with the speed of light as it has
to do with the 'dead time' required to bleep out any offensive language
when the broadcast is live. Absolutely so.

No, the same "seven-second delay" (that was the typical length when it
was invented) applies to the entire broadcast and so has no effect on
the dead air between question and answer.

NPR repeats a two-hour "Morning Edition" program each day, and if you
hear a breaking-news live interview during the 5 am hour (Eastern Time),
when you hear the repeat in the 7 am hour it will have been edited to
remove the dead air and the false starts, coughs, etc.

(Usually I hear it from 7 to 9. If I wake early, I might hear part of
the 6 am hour as well as its repeat during the 8 am hour.)

Lewis

2020-07-03 17:12:35 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

One of my Walter Mitty dreams has me being interviewed by our public TV
network (ABC). When asked a question, I would nod my head up and down
for several seconds [1], and then say "So, absolutely". With that
response repeated for every question.
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".
[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess that
the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on the message.

Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it's wrong. No
matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always
got there first, and is waiting for it. --Reaper Man

But the reality is that light spends a lot of time waiting around for
computers, switches, modulators, cabling, compression, encoding, and
decoding.

This is fine, since light, moving at the speed of light, has no concept
of time. As far as light is concerned, the big hand happened exactly
now.

--
I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.

Sam Plusnet

2020-07-03 17:30:40 UTC

They could use instant coffee.

--
Sam Plusnet

CDB

2020-07-04 11:50:50 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and
every independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

Or you could nod vigorously and say "So".

If asked for more detail, you could reply "Just so".

Post by Peter Moylan
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".
[1] Is the speed of light really so slow? Even when talking to a
reporter on the other side of the world, the delays seem to be
excessive. And many of these cases are where the person being
interviewed is in another city in the same state. I can only guess
that the satellite repeaters need a coffee break before passing on
the message.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-04 12:01:25 UTC

[the attributions appear to have become deranged]

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and
every independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

Or you could nod vigorously and say "So".
If asked for more detail, you could reply "Just so".

So what Paul Epstein just asked about in starting another thread
_does_ seem to be a Canadianism!

I wasn't going to mention this, but I woke up too early and turned
on the radio and heard the program "Innovation Hub" (weird title),
and the closing segment was on the surprising fact that language
changes, and the American Editor of Oxford Dictionaries talked
about "like" and "so." There's a web site that you could get at
via wnyc.org.

Incidentally, the little bit of *Alice* I just posted begins with
a "Well" used exactly like the contemporary initial "So."

Post by Peter Moylan
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of saying "yes".

CDB

2020-07-04 19:02:24 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
[the attributions appear to have become deranged]

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and
every independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect? I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I
mainly interact with whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?... Alex Trebek: "Tell us about
yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from Nebraska...."

Or you could nod vigorously and say "So".
If asked for more detail, you could reply "Just so".

So what Paul Epstein just asked about in starting another thread
_does_ seem to be a Canadianism!
I wasn't going to mention this, but I woke up too early and turned on
the radio and heard the program "Innovation Hub" (weird title), and
the closing segment was on the surprising fact that language changes,
and the American Editor of Oxford Dictionaries talked about "like"
and "so." There's a web site that you could get at via wnyc.org.

I have addressed Paul E's question in another posting. The difference I
see between what I posted and what Peterson said was that his "so ..."
followed on an explanation and saved him some time, while my suggestion
was essentially a pun on "just".

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Incidentally, the little bit of *Alice* I just posted begins with a
"Well" used exactly like the contemporary initial "So."

Well, I may do that one too. I think I began hearing the introductory
"So," in answers given by academics in scientific fields answering
questions from the host of a popularising CBC radio science magazine
called "Quirks and Quarks". It probably spread by imitation.

ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some literary
reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he doesn't mention
the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r],
which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war,
warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Post by Peter Moylan
"Absolutely" appears to be the currently fashionable way of
saying "yes".

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-04 19:45:04 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some literary
reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he doesn't mention
the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r],
which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war,
warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

(Joyce: Three quarks for Muster Mork)

[dwOrf] [***@l] ['kwarij] [tOrd(z)] [wOr] [wOrn]

CDB

2020-07-05 19:11:13 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it,
"So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

(Joyce: Three quarks for Muster Mork)

Your dialect's replacement for my dialect's [o] is a detail. They're
still more alike than either of them is like [A]. And [kwori];[twordz],
so there.

I think your version of "quarry" may be a spelling-pronunciation.

Mork? Wrong TV show.

Each of preceding [w] and following [r] moves that vowel one step
farther back in the mouth. Mack, mark; mad, wad; ward.

Sometimes with other vowels too: mock, Mork, work.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-06 11:53:32 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it,
"So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

(Joyce: Three quarks for Muster Mork)

Your dialect's replacement for my dialect's [o] is a detail. They're
still more alike than either of them is like [A]. And [kwori];[twordz],
so there.

The point is that for you those six words have but one vowel phoneme,
for me they have two different ones.

Post by CDB
I think your version of "quarry" may be a spelling-pronunciation.
Mork? Wrong TV show.

If he'[d written "Mister Mark" there wouldn't be any controversy.

Post by CDB
Each of preceding [w] and following [r] moves that vowel one step
farther back in the mouth. Mack, mark; mad, wad; ward.
Sometimes with other vowels too: mock, Mork, work.

I'm reading the *Blackwell Handbook of English Pronunciation* (they
insist on paying contributors with books, and I've pretty much used
up their entire backlist of what to request), which is resolutely
Britain-centric, and the chapter on the segments of English contrasts
BrE "hot" and "palm" (different vowels) with the AmE pronunciations
("same vowels") -- Howie Aronson pointed out in phonology class that
linguists tend to choose the worst possible examples for the simplest
concepts.

AmE "hot" and "palm" do NOT have the same phonetic vowel, though they
do have the same phoneme. PALM has the phonetic vowel of "cod," not
the phonetic vowel of "cot" (or "hot"): the following voiced segment
draws the vowel back a little (but doesn't round it). (I'm not going
to check whether Wells noted this in 1982. A main source of data for
the chapter is Wells's 2008 Longman's Pronouncing Dictionary, which
I haven't seen.)

Speaking of spelling pronunciations, the same article claims that
"often" with [t] is increasing among the youf of England, and that
"forehead" with [h] is an Americanism. Is that really so? Is it
_not_ a compound of "fore" and "head," but was it originally "forrid"
as in the rhyme about the little girl who had a little curl, with
the standard spelling being a folk-etymologization of that?

CDB

2020-07-06 20:38:57 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how
Gell-Mann wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with
"cork") and some literary reasons he advanced for his choice.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention the placement of the vowel
spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk
for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a
Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

[tOrd(z)] [wOr] [wOrn]

Your dialect's replacement for my dialect's [o] is a detail.
They're still more alike than either of them is like [A]. And
[kwori];[twordz], so there.

The point is that for you those six words have but one vowel
phoneme, for me they have two different ones.

Post by CDB
I think your version of "quarry" may be a spelling-pronunciation.
Mork? Wrong TV show.

If he'[d written "Mister Mark" there wouldn't be any controversy.

Post by CDB
Each of preceding [w] and following [r] moves that vowel one step
farther back in the mouth. Mack, mark; mad, wad; ward.
Sometimes with other vowels too: mock, Mork, work.

Yes. Have we not said before in this group that a following voiced
consonant prolongs the vowel in NAmE?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Speaking of spelling pronunciations, the same article claims that
"often" with [t] is increasing among the youf of England, and that
"forehead" with [h] is an Americanism. Is that really so? Is it _not_
a compound of "fore" and "head," but was it originally "forrid" as in
the rhyme about the little girl who had a little curl, with the
standard spelling being a folk-etymologization of that?

In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the other.

--
OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-07 03:27:38 UTC

In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the other.

And when she was bad, she was whore-head.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 12:19:49 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how
Gell-Mann wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with
"cork") and some literary reasons he advanced for his choice.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention the placement of the vowel
spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk
for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a
Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

[tOrd(z)] [wOr] [wOrn]

Your dialect's replacement for my dialect's [o] is a detail.
They're still more alike than either of them is like [A]. And
[kwori];[twordz], so there.

The point is that for you those six words have but one vowel
phoneme, for me they have two different ones.

Post by CDB
I think your version of "quarry" may be a spelling-pronunciation.
Mork? Wrong TV show.

If he'[d written "Mister Mark" there wouldn't be any controversy.

Post by CDB
Each of preceding [w] and following [r] moves that vowel one step
farther back in the mouth. Mack, mark; mad, wad; ward.
Sometimes with other vowels too: mock, Mork, work.

Yes. Have we not said before in this group that a following voiced
consonant prolongs the vowel in NAmE?

C,a va sans dire. I refer to vowel _quality_, not vowel length.

In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the other.
--
OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Your PM dissed trump. He's gonna be in big trouble.

CDB

2020-07-07 18:13:54 UTC

[pondial pronunciations]

Post by CDB
In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the
other. -- OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Your PM dissed trump. He's gonna be in big trouble.

We're all counting on you in November.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 19:32:05 UTC

Post by CDB
[pondial pronunciations]

Post by CDB
In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the
other. -- OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Your PM dissed trump. He's gonna be in big trouble.

We're all counting on you in November.

Fear not, NY and NJ will defend you.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-08 02:15:28 UTC

Post by CDB
[pondial pronunciations]

Post by CDB
In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the
other. -- OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Your PM dissed trump. He's gonna be in big trouble.

We're all counting on you in November.

Fear not, NY and NJ will defend you.

But will that be sufficient?

We've just had a by-election here. The opposition held on to the seat,
but by the slimmest of margins. Given the government's recent history on
corruption and screw-ups, I expected a landslide. But no, the people
voted the way the mass media told them to vote.

(Except right on the coast. The people there, some of whom are still
living in tents, are still angry about the bushfire recovery funding
that was promised and never delivered.)

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-08 13:31:52 UTC

Post by CDB
[pondial pronunciations]

Post by CDB
In my schizoid Canadian way, I sometimes say one, sometimes the
other. -- OK, maybe it's multiple personality disorder.

Your PM dissed trump. He's gonna be in big trouble.

We're all counting on you in November.

Fear not, NY and NJ will defend you.

But will that be sufficient?

It depends on whether the Sandersites are still idiots. They used to
call in to (liberal) talk shows and insist there wasn't a dime's worth
of difference between Clinton and trump -- they were both tools of the
oligarchic establishment or something like that -- so they cast no vote
for president.

In Wisconsin, the deficit in Democratic votes for president (vs. other
offices that were on the ballot) made the difference. The same may have
also been the case in Michigan and Pennsylvania.

Post by Peter Moylan
We've just had a by-election here. The opposition held on to the seat,
but by the slimmest of margins. Given the government's recent history on
corruption and screw-ups, I expected a landslide. But no, the people
voted the way the mass media told them to vote.

There were some stray Sandersites on the NJ primary ballot yesterday.
In all the results that have come in so far [the whole state voted
by mail], including a couple that were apparently hotly contested,
none of them have prevailed. They may have noticed that AOC and "The
Squad" have accomplished nothing in the past two years except giving
trump a target to tar the entire Democratic Party as "socialists"
(whatever's wrong with that).

Post by Peter Moylan
(Except right on the coast. The people there, some of whom are still
living in tents, are still angry about the bushfire recovery funding
that was promised and never delivered.)

We heard that one of the states -- NSW or Victoria? -- has closed its
border to the other one. Has it proved feasible?

The NYC tri-state area (NY, NJ, CT) has imposed two-week quarantine
on travelers from three more states (DE NE OK), so now it's 19 of 47.

N.B. Nebraska was changed from NB to NE so as not to conflict with
New Brunswick.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-05 02:49:16 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.

Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

David Kleinecke

2020-07-05 04:47:29 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Peter Moylan

2020-07-05 04:58:19 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.

Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

David Kleinecke

2020-07-05 06:11:03 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.
Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

I have /w/ in /kwortr/ as well as /kwort/ and everywhere else too.
There is a question whether the /o/ vowel might be a schwa.

Snidely

2020-07-05 11:15:37 UTC

David Kleinecke is guilty of
<b6164135-f321-448c-b1b3-***@googlegroups.com> as of 7/4/2020
11:11:03 PM

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.
Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

I have /w/ in /kwortr/ as well as /kwort/ and everywhere else too.
There is a question whether the /o/ vowel might be a schwa.

Are you guys talking about the same w? I think somebody is describing
a vowel and somebody else is describing a consonant.

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-05 13:26:45 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.
Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

Are you saying you can't tell a quart from a court?

Do you have no [kw] for <qu> at all? or before rounded vowels, maybe?

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2020-07-05 14:13:43 UTC

On Sun, 5 Jul 2020 14:58:19 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.
Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

Yes. The [w] in "quarter" is the most common pronunciation in BrE.

Forvo has only one UK pronunciation of "quarter" and that has [w].
The Australian example lacks [w]. That is by a man calling himself
Quoth. I wonder how he pronounces that name.
https://forvo.com/word/quarter/#en_uk

I have heard "quarter" without [w] a very few times. I think it was from
individuals speaking a posh form of RP.

Does anyone pronounce "quote" without a [w]?

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Jerry Friedman

2020-07-05 15:40:08 UTC

ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how Gell-Mann
wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with "cork") and some
literary reasons he advanced for his choice. Interestingly, he
doesn't mention the placement of the vowel spelt "a" between a [w]
and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel,
quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

Which [w] does "quart" not have? Surely not the one after [k].

Is that regional? I never knew that.
Do some people also have a [w] in "quarter"?

Certainly. The AHD, M-W, and OED all list "quart" and "quarter"
starting with /kw/, though M-W admits an "also" pronunciation without a
/w/ for "quarter". As I recall, Richard Fontana and "Young Joey", both
New Yorkers, once discussed a "corter" pronunciation for "quarter".

--
Jerry Friedman

CDB

2020-07-05 17:02:26 UTC

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter TD has a
slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O], but that's still
more like [o] than [A].

Peter Young

2020-07-05 17:29:21 UTC

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which doesn't
have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter TD has a
slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O], but that's still
more like [o] than [A].

Not in some registers of BrE. Here it can more or less rhyme with "port".

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

CDB

2020-07-05 19:11:38 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how
Gell-Mann wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with
"cork") and some literary reasons he advanced for his choice.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention the placement of the vowel
spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk
for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a
Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which
doesn't have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter TD
has a slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O], but
that's still more like [o] than [A].

Not in some registers of BrE. Here it can more or less rhyme with "port".

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that respect.
Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of "court" than the
"ar" of "cart"?

I was trying to ask that question without resorting to ERK IPA, and it
wasn't easy. Sorry if I gave any linguists the willies.

phil

2020-07-05 22:24:13 UTC

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which
doesn't have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter TD has
a slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O], but that's
still more like [o] than [A].

Not in some registers of BrE. Here it can more or less rhyme with "port".

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that respect.
Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of "court" than the
"ar" of "cart"?
I was trying to ask that question without resorting to ERK IPA, and it
wasn't easy. Sorry if I gave any linguists the willies.

Just to muddy the water, how do you pronounce 'quark'?

CDB

2020-07-06 13:17:41 UTC

Post by phil

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how
Gell-Mann wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with
"cork") and some literary reasons he advanced for his
choice. Interestingly, he doesn't mention the placement of
the vowel spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r], which makes
it a slam-dunk for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards,
war, warn. (Or, as a Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart",
which doesn't have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter
TD has a slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O],
but that's still more like [o] than [A].

Not in some registers of BrE. Here it can more or less rhyme
with "port".

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?
I was trying to ask that question without resorting to ERK IPA,
and it wasn't easy. Sorry if I gave any linguists the willies.

Just to muddy the water, how do you pronounce 'quark'?

Like the fresh cheese, [kwArk]; but I understand that to be an imitation
of the German pronunciation (apart from the [v]) of a German word.

Haven't needed to say it since I started draining yogurt in a
cheesecloth bag. Mmm, tzatziki:

Take 1 large container of good yogurt (no additives) and drain it
overnight or at least for several hours. I favour "Astro" brand.

In a bowl, add an eighth of a cup, or up to a quarter-cup, of olive oil,
a couple of cloves of garlic, finely minced, and salt and black
pepper to taste; mix well.

Stir in the finely-grated flesh, well-squeezed by hand, of a peeled
English cucumber.

Return the mixture to the yogurt tub and refrigerate for several hours
to let the flavours blend. If you weren't making it for a party dip, it
will last for most of a week there.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-06 01:49:16 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that respect.
Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of "court" than the
"ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

CDB

2020-07-06 13:18:04 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

Peter Moylan

2020-07-07 03:32:44 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of your
question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-07-07 07:39:35 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Post by Peter Moylan
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of your
question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

--
athel

the Omrud

2020-07-07 16:32:22 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there Gell-Mann.
Sadly, she died quite young from cancer. Also sadly, I never met her.
Or him.

--
David

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-07-07 17:00:33 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there Gell-Mann.

J. Margaret Dow, I presume.

Post by the Omrud
Sadly, she died quite young from cancer. Also sadly, I never met her. Or him.

"Along with S. A. Starostin, he established the Evolution of Human
Languages project at the Santa Fe Institute."

I don't suppose that PTD approves of his ideas about linguistics.

--
athel

David Kleinecke

2020-07-07 18:10:18 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there Gell-Mann.

J. Margaret Dow, I presume.

Post by the Omrud
Sadly, she died quite young from cancer. Also sadly, I never met her. Or him.

"Along with S. A. Starostin, he established the Evolution of Human
Languages project at the Santa Fe Institute."
I don't suppose that PTD approves of his ideas about linguistics.

I've never encountered his ideas about linguistics. If they are all
about historical stuff that's ok. Did he have any significant ideas
about syntax or semantics?

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 19:30:33 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

And someone just mentioned -- choir! A homohone for quire, a small
measure of paper quantity. (Normally 24 sheets, but some people
think it's a subdivision of a ream, but you can't do 24 into 500
evenly.)

Post by Peter Moylan
They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there Gell-Mann.

J. Margaret Dow, I presume.

Post by the Omrud
Sadly, she died quite young from cancer. Also sadly, I never met her. Or him.

"Along with S. A. Starostin, he established the Evolution of Human
Languages project at the Santa Fe Institute."
I don't suppose that PTD approves of his ideas about linguistics.

I'm not aware that he offered any "ideas." He provided a forum for
linguistic crackpottery. If Starostin was involved, so much the more so.

charles

2020-07-07 19:44:41 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 19:49:44 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

And someone just mentioned -- choir! A homophone for quire, a small
measure of paper quantity. (Normally 24 sheets, but some people
think it's a subdivision of a ream, but you can't do 24 into 500
evenly.)

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Which, as I said, doesn't cohere with a quire being 24 sheets.

charles

2020-07-07 20:39:29 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Which, as I said, doesn't cohere with a quire being 24 sheets.

when I was young, a ream was 480 sheets. Inflation has crept in.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Sam Plusnet

2020-07-07 22:38:05 UTC

Post by charles
when I was young, a ream was 480 sheets.

On that basis, I calculate that a ream of baking parchment should have
contained 520 sheets.

--
Sam Plusnet

Tony Cooper

2020-07-07 20:24:47 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Web sources say a quire is 25 sheets of machine made paper, or 1/20th
of a ream. A quire of handmade or specialized paper is 24 sheets and
480 sheets is a "short quire".

Easy enough to look up.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 20:35:55 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Web sources say a quire is 25 sheets of machine made paper, or 1/20th
of a ream. A quire of handmade or specialized paper is 24 sheets and
480 sheets is a "short quire".

Curious. I'd have thought that would be a "short ream."

Post by Tony Cooper
Easy enough to look up.

Then why didn't you get it right?

Easy enough to look up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_paper_quantity

Tony Cooper

2020-07-07 21:01:11 UTC

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:35:55 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Web sources say a quire is 25 sheets of machine made paper, or 1/20th
of a ream. A quire of handmade or specialized paper is 24 sheets and
480 sheets is a "short quire".

Curious. I'd have thought that would be a "short ream."

Yes. My error.

Post by Tony Cooper
Easy enough to look up.

Then why didn't you get it right?

Mistyped.

See how easy it is to admit error?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Easy enough to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_of_paper_quantity

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

charles

2020-07-07 20:55:05 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Web sources say a quire is 25 sheets of machine made paper, or 1/20th
of a ream. A quire of handmade or specialized paper is 24 sheets and
480 sheets is a "short quire".

"Short ream" ?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

musika

2020-07-07 20:41:27 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
And someone just mentioned -- choir! A homohone for quire, a small
measure of paper quantity. (Normally 24 sheets, but some people
think it's a subdivision of a ream, but you can't do 24 into 500
evenly.)

My dictionary tells me that a ream is 20 quires,

Machine made paper is q=25 r=500
Hand made paper is often q=24 r=480

--
Ray
UK

CDB

2020-07-08 13:42:38 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's
in that respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more
like the "our" of "court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are
homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

Also once a work of literature, as in "The Kingis Quair", although that
is probably not a homophone of the other two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kingis_Quair

[...]

the Omrud

2020-07-08 14:52:54 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

--
David

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-08 16:38:10 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?

https://www.staples.com/deals/This-Weeks-Best-Copy-Paper-Deals/BI2023698

charles

2020-07-08 16:48:04 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?

February - when I bought 5 reams (office World branch closing). I know a
ream is now 500 sheets, but it has changed over the years.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-08 16:56:37 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?

February - when I bought 5 reams (office World branch closing). I know a
ream is now 500 sheets, but it has changed over the years.

Your childhood seems to have been considerably longer ago than my
childhood. As I've mentioned, my father was in Office Supplies and
Printing, and I learned the details of the stuff they dealt in very
early on.

"A ream isn't 500 sheets" is incorrect. "As a child, I learned that
the ream was 480 sheets" would have been correct.

the Omrud

2020-07-08 17:00:28 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?

February - when I bought 5 reams (office World branch closing). I know a
ream is now 500 sheets, but it has changed over the years.

Your childhood seems to have been considerably longer ago than my
childhood. As I've mentioned, my father was in Office Supplies and
Printing, and I learned the details of the stuff they dealt in very
early on.
"A ream isn't 500 sheets" is incorrect. "As a child, I learned that
the ream was 480 sheets" would have been correct.

Sure, but the point was to explain why the quire isn't 25 sheets. All
else is feigned imperial bluster.

--
David

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-08 17:09:30 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?

February - when I bought 5 reams (office World branch closing). I know a
ream is now 500 sheets, but it has changed over the years.

Your childhood seems to have been considerably longer ago than my
childhood. As I've mentioned, my father was in Office Supplies and
Printing, and I learned the details of the stuff they dealt in very
early on.
"A ream isn't 500 sheets" is incorrect. "As a child, I learned that
the ream was 480 sheets" would have been correct.

Sure, but the point was to explain why the quire isn't 25 sheets. All
else is feigned imperial bluster.

Which came first, the quire or the ream? It's a lot easier to make
enough paper (by hand, remember) to sell a pack of 24 than to sell
a pack of 500 (or 480).

The aforecited Wikiparticle makes the history a lot more complicated
than it ought to have been.

the Omrud

2020-07-08 16:58:41 UTC

That's because a ream isn't 500 sheets. As a child, I learned that the
ream is 480 sheets.

When's the last time you bought a package of computer paper?
https://www.staples.com/deals/This-Weeks-Best-Copy-Paper-Deals/BI2023698

Damn metric "ream".

--
David

the Omrud

2020-07-08 14:51:11 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there Gell-Mann.

J. Margaret Dow, I presume.

I only ever heard Mum say "Margaret", so yes, I assume that's the lady.
I can't find any biography of her, but this would have been at Warwick
Girls, aka Kings High.

--
David

Madhu

2020-07-07 17:51:44 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".

Mine too, and that of most people I've heard to use the word.

Ehem. My mother's best friend at school married that there
Gell-Mann. Sadly, she died quite young from cancer. Also sadly, I
never met her. Or him.

I've met his grandson in the university he was studying. Not impressive
at all and wouldn't care to meet him again

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 12:23:34 UTC

Post by CDB
I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of your
question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

Curious. Why would you have [kw] in "quark" but not in "quart"?
How about "quarrel," which (Up Here, anyway) has the "dark" vowel?
(It's not impossible that the [w] portion of the consonant [kw]
gets swallowed up in the rounding of the vowel in "quart.") Or maybe
it's ordinary vocabulary vs. learnéd vocabulary.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-07 12:56:14 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of
your question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

Curious. Why would you have [kw] in "quark" but not in "quart"? How
about "quarrel," which (Up Here, anyway) has the "dark" vowel? (It's
not impossible that the [w] portion of the consonant [kw] gets
swallowed up in the rounding of the vowel in "quart.") Or maybe it's
ordinary vocabulary vs. learnéd vocabulary.

I've just taken a quick run through a small dictionary. (It would take
too long with a big dictionary.) It seems that I use [kw] for most words
that start with "qu".

The exceptions are quart, quarter, quartz, quay, queue, quixotic, quoit.

The only explanation I have for the exceptions is that that's the way I
learnt to pronounce those words, presumably from the people around me.

There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Jerry Friedman

2020-07-07 14:22:55 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of
your question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

Curious. Why would you have [kw] in "quark" but not in "quart"? How
about "quarrel," which (Up Here, anyway) has the "dark" vowel? (It's
not impossible that the [w] portion of the consonant [kw] gets
swallowed up in the rounding of the vowel in "quart.") Or maybe it's
ordinary vocabulary vs. learnéd vocabulary.

I wouldn't have expected "quartz".

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "quoit". No, that's a lie.
One of my college roommates was a Pogo fan, and I've heard him quote
"The keen and the quing were quirling at quoits." [kwOIts]. M-W lists
/kOIt/ first, but AHD lists /kwOIt/ first.

Post by Peter Moylan
The only explanation I have for the exceptions is that that's the way I
learnt to pronounce those words, presumably from the people around me.
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2020-07-08 02:27:02 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.

And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know. Even deque.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

RH Draney

2020-07-08 03:14:42 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-08 09:17:11 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as
[k], but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

It's very kind of you, but I'd prefer to go somewhere with a choice of
beers.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter Moylan

2020-07-08 10:14:49 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle
as [k], but the only one that occurs to me right now is
"racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception
as far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

Yes, that's how I say it.

If people insist on misspelling it, I claim the right to pronounce it
the way they wrote it.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

RH Draney

2020-07-08 11:22:09 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception
as far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

Yes, that's how I say it.
If people insist on misspelling it, I claim the right to pronounce it
the way they wrote it.

All right then...how do you handle "manque"?...r

Peter Moylan

2020-07-08 12:26:09 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception
as far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

Yes, that's how I say it.
If people insist on misspelling it, I claim the right to pronounce it
the way they wrote it.

All right then...how do you handle "manque"?...r

Touché.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-08 14:39:11 UTC

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:26:09 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception
as far as I know. Even deque.

"Bar-beck"?...r

Yes, that's how I say it.
If people insist on misspelling it, I claim the right to pronounce it
the way they wrote it.

All right then...how do you handle "manque"?...r

TouchÃ©.

I got to utube:

Lucie Vagenheim - Manque d'audace (Clip Officiel)

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Mark Brader

2020-07-08 03:26:01 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know.

This is also common with "quer", "quet", and "quy" endings, as in
Peter's first example; and then there are the pretty much unique
endings of "liquor", "liqueur", and "mosquito".

Many such words can take additional endings either for inflection or
to form derived words, and the "qu" is still pronounced "k". For
example, "antiquing", "chequered", "cliquishness", and "conquerors".

Others that come close to fitting the above patterns, but not quite,
include "barquentine", "becquerel", "harquebus", "mesquite", and
"moquette".

--
Mark Brader | "I thought it was a big joke.
Toronto | Dr. Brader is known for joking around a lot."
***@vex.net | --Matthew McKnight

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Jerry Friedman

2020-07-08 12:33:48 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know.

This is also common with "quer", "quet", and "quy" endings, as in
Peter's first example; and then there are the pretty much unique
endings of "liquor", "liqueur", and "mosquito".
Many such words can take additional endings either for inflection or
to form derived words, and the "qu" is still pronounced "k". For
example, "antiquing", "chequered", "cliquishness", and "conquerors".
Others that come close to fitting the above patterns, but not quite,
include "barquentine", "becquerel", "harquebus", "mesquite", and
"moquette".

Next question: final /t/ in "tourniquet"? Yes for me. As my neighbors
watched /Due Date/ three times yesterday, I can report that a character
in that movie pronounces the /t/ too.

--
Jerry Friedman

Mark Brader

2020-07-08 19:06:48 UTC

Post by Mark Brader
Others that come close to fitting the above patterns, but not quite,
include "barquentine", "becquerel", "harquebus", "mesquite", and
"moquette".

Next question: final /t/ in "tourniquet"? Yes for me.

"Turn-ick-ay" for me.

I was amused when visiting Paris some years ago to observe that in
their usage the word refers to a turnstile. I think this was at
the Montparnasse Tower. I commented on it to the ticket-taker and
he said that what I call a tourniquet, he'd call a "gueret". At
least, that's how I heard it, but Wikipedia has the correct spelling
as "garrot". As in being garroted!

Post by Jerry Friedman
As my neighbors watched /Due Date/ three times yesterday, I can
report that a character in that movie pronounces the /t/ too.

I have the impression (from TV) that that's usual in the US.

--
Mark Brader "If the right people don't have power...
Toronto the wrong people get it... ordinary voters!"
***@vex.net -- Lynn & Jay: YES, PRIME MINISTER

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-07-08 05:53:12 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.

Also parquet and marquetry.

Post by Peter Moylan
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know. Even deque.

--
athel

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-08 09:15:39 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

Croquet?

That's a good example.
And I have [k] in all words that end with "que", without exception as
far as I know. Even deque.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
has 'kw'

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-07 16:28:42 UTC

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 12:56:14 GMT, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of
your question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

Curious. Why would you have [kw] in "quark" but not in "quart"? How
about "quarrel," which (Up Here, anyway) has the "dark" vowel? (It's
not impossible that the [w] portion of the consonant [kw] gets
swallowed up in the rounding of the vowel in "quart.") Or maybe it's
ordinary vocabulary vs. learnÃ©d vocabulary.

I've just taken a quick run through a small dictionary. (It would take
too long with a big dictionary.) It seems that I use [kw] for most words
that start with "qu".
The exceptions are quart, quarter, quartz, quay, queue, quixotic, quoit.
The only explanation I have for the exceptions is that that's the way I
learnt to pronounce those words, presumably from the people around me.
There are probably words where I pronounce a "qu" in the middle as [k],
but the only one that occurs to me right now is "racquet".

UKE, IME, other caveats are available;
quart quarter quartz and quixotic are kw-
I think that's the default for all 'qu*'
except:
quay is a homophone with key
queue is 'Q'
quoit is koit

PS (x-thread) my mum always pronounced 'choir' as 'koier', not 'kwier'.
But I think this was just her! (until you tell me different/otherwise)

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

CDB

2020-07-07 13:34:27 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

They would be, if it weren't for the fact that I've never accepted
Gell-Mann's pronunciation of "quark". My "quark" rhymes with "dark".
Oh, and I've just realised that that made me miss the main point of your
question. No, because my "quark" includes a [w].

That's reasonable, since you use the other vowel in it.

phil

2020-07-07 12:56:37 UTC

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

(Now read the thread properly and realised that 'quark' had come up
earlier. Duh!)

'Quark' is a word that for a long time I knew only in print, but in my
head it rhymed with 'dark'. When I heard some US Professor of Physics on
TV rhyme it with 'pork', I wondered if I'd had it wrong all this time.
But I see that PM, elsethread, agrees with me.

Then again, I've heard a US physicist on TV (possibly the same one) talk
about 'nucular power'.

<Off at a tangent> If a biomass-fuelled power station were set up to
burn primarily small nuts or nutlets, or sections of composite hard
fruits, presumably it could properly be described as a nucular power
station?

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-07 13:11:51 UTC

Post by phil

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

Maybe that was Gell-Mann himself. Unfortunately he fancied himself as
something of a linguist and devoted some of the resources of his Santa
Fe Institute to promoting the crackpot theories of Merritt Ruhlen and
Luigi Cavalli-Sforza about the supposed link between population genetics
and historical relationships among languages.

(If you look closely at their famous dual-tree diagram, with DNA data
on one side and language-family relationships on the other, you'll see
that even though the names go down the middle, pointed to by a twig of
the tree on each side, the _branchings_ of the two trees show very
little congruence at all. A well-drawn version was published in
*Scientific American* -- they did have a good graphics staff in those
days!)

Post by phil
Then again, I've heard a US physicist on TV (possibly the same one) talk
about 'nucular power'.

That is the correct pronunciation of the word for a very wide geographic
area of the United States. Jimmy Carter, trained at the US Naval Academy
as a nuclear engineer, and who served on nuclear-powered ships, uses
that pronunciation.

Post by phil
<Off at a tangent> If a biomass-fuelled power station were set up to
burn primarily small nuts or nutlets, or sections of composite hard
fruits, presumably it could properly be described as a nucular power
station?

Perhaps not. Mr. Carter might do well if it were peanut-fueled, though.

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-07 16:21:01 UTC

Post by phil

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's inÂ that
respect. Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of
"court" than the "ar" of "cart"?

In my AusE, "quart" and "court" and "caught" are homophones.

How about "quark". "cork", and "caulk"?

(Now read the thread properly and realised that 'quark' had come up
earlier. Duh!)
'Quark' is a word that for a long time I knew only in print, but in my
head it rhymed with 'dark'. When I heard some US Professor of Physics on
TV rhyme it with 'pork', I wondered if I'd had it wrong all this time.
But I see that PM, elsethread, agrees with me.
Then again, I've heard a US physicist on TV (possibly the same one) talk
about 'nucular power'.
<Off at a tangent> If a biomass-fuelled power station were set up to
burn primarily small nuts or nutlets, or sections of composite hard
fruits, presumably it could properly be described as a nucular power
station?

That's just nuts! Kern all fonts into san serrife.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Serriffe
(not the land where brazils come from)

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-06 11:54:55 UTC

Post by CDB
ObAUE: the WParticle below gives some indication of how
Gell-Mann wanted "quark" to be pronounced (to rhyme with
"cork") and some literary reasons he advanced for his choice.
Interestingly, he doesn't mention the placement of the vowel
spelt "a" between a [w] and an [r], which makes it a slam-dunk
for me: dwarf, quarrel, quarry, towards, war, warn. (Or, as a
Canadian might put it, "So".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark#Etymology

Perhaps Gell-Mann didn't have the cot-caught merger.
Also, he justified his choice by comparison with "quart", which
doesn't have a [w].

I disagree. No "w", sure, but a definite [w]: [kwort]. Peter TD
has a slightly different vowel in some of those words,[O], but
that's still more like [o] than [A].

Not in some registers of BrE. Here it can more or less rhyme with "port".

I think your dialect must resemble the other Peter's in that respect.
Is not the vowel in your "quart" more like the "our" of "court" than the
"ar" of "cart"?
I was trying to ask that question without resorting to ERK IPA, and it
wasn't easy. Sorry if I gave any linguists the willies.

Or Anglists. NPR actually wasted three minutes this morning on M-W's
decision to "recognize" that "irregardless" "is a word."

Mark Brader

2020-07-06 02:32:50 UTC

The name is Mark, not Mork, and he strained to make the wrong sound fit.

--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net | "If the enemy is in range, so are you."

CDB

2020-07-06 13:17:53 UTC

The name is Mark, not Mork, and he strained to make the wrong sound fit.

I saw that, but the direect comparison was to "quart", was it not?
Anyway, I think my reasons (snipt) are better.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2020-07-06 13:36:21 UTC

The name is Mark, not Mork, and he strained to make the wrong sound fit.

I saw that, but the direect comparison was to "quart", was it not?
Anyway, I think my reasons (snipt) are better.

Many years ago I knew someone in Berkeley called Mark. His wife, from
somewhere in the southern USA, pronounced it, to my non-rhotic ears, as
Mwork.

--
athel

Sam Plusnet

2020-07-06 20:05:07 UTC

On 06-Jul-20 14:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
snip

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
pronounced it, to my non-rhotic ears

Is there a word which describes the sensation when you read or hear
something which is perfectly understandable, yet causes a jolt of
cognitive dissonance?

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter T. Daniels

2020-07-06 20:36:28 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
pronounced it, to my non-rhotic ears

Is there a word which describes the sensation when you read or hear
something which is perfectly understandable, yet causes a jolt of
cognitive dissonance?

cognitive dissonance?

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-07 08:45:19 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
snip

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
pronounced it, to my non-rhotic ears

Is there a word which describes the sensation when you read or hear
something which is perfectly understandable, yet causes a jolt of
cognitive dissonance?

It's better than an ear-rhotic non.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

CDB

2020-07-06 20:39:07 UTC

The name is Mark, not Mork, and he strained to make the wrong sound fit.

I saw that, but the direect comparison was to "quart", was it not?
Anyway, I think my reasons (snipt) are better.

Many years ago I knew someone in Berkeley called Mark. His wife, from
somewhere in the southern USA, pronounced it, to my non-rhotic ears,
as Mwork.

I've heard that too. Why, this is the great English vowel-shift, nor
are we out of it.

CDB

2020-07-03 13:27:04 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with
whites over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself." Contestant: "So I'm from
Nebraska...."

Maybe Contestant meant to say "I'm *so* from Nebraska".

--
I mean, like, gag me.

Jerry Friedman

2020-07-05 15:41:46 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself."
Contestant: "So I'm from Nebraska...."

Not every sentence, of course, but a lot of people start many
conversational turns with "So".

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet

2020-07-05 19:46:10 UTC

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself."
Contestant: "So I'm from Nebraska...."

Not every sentence, of course, but a lot of people start many
conversational turns with "So".

"How was your weekend?"
"So so."

--
Sam Plusnet

Kerr-Mudd,John

2020-07-05 21:06:14 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by RH Draney
Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

So you don't watch television?...
Alex Trebek: "Tell us about yourself."
Contestant: "So I'm from Nebraska...."

Not every sentence, of course, but a lot of people start many
conversational turns with "So".

"How was your weekend?"
"So so."

So long.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Jenny Telia

2020-07-03 13:04:04 UTC

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

In that form, the "so" is not wanted. Some of the ways I'd consider
Since it's a rather old version, I'm very confused on this requirement.
I'm very confused on this requrement since it's a rather old version.
It is confusing to deal with this requirement on older versions.
Note that I'd consider the original sentence and my first two
rewrites to be informal; fine for a blog or notes shared with other
users, but not appropriate for documentation.

Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

Not in the dialect of a puss, clearly. However it is prevalent in many
conversations, even those between whites over 25.

Lewis

2020-07-03 17:08:43 UTC

Post by Hongyi Zhao
Considering that it's a rather old version, so I'm very confused on this requirement.
In the above sentence, should I use *so* or not?

Note that nowadays, many people begin *every* sentence and every
independent clause with the word "so"....r

In WHAT dialect?

Not sure it's a dialect, but I hear it an awful lot.

Post by Chrysi Cat
I'm not thinking of any, but admittedly I mainly interact with whites
over the age of 25.

I've only heard it from white people.

--
"Great art is as irrational as great music. It is mad with its own
loveliness." - George Jean Nathan

s***@my-deja.com

2020-07-03 11:49:25 UTC