Discussion:
"You care when you get time..."
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Steve Hayes
2020-01-26 04:46:15 UTC
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On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.

I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".

I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"

He replied "I don't care."

And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.

So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"

I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
Anton Shepelev
2020-01-26 12:05:35 UTC
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I've noticed that in at least some US dialects
"care" is used in ways that sound to English
speakers from other countries.
They sound indeed. When, after the excellenet pen-
cil drawings in the Bierce anthology by Cenipede
Press, I was gravely disappointed by the illustra-
tions in the next book that I read from the same
publisher and wrote about it to the owner, he
replied to me: "I am sorry you didn't care for the
illustrations." And I couldn't care less.

Some British writers, Robert Aickman for one, use
"know" in a similarly strange way, but I have lent
my book to a friend and cannot provide a quotation.
It was something like "I don't know that I want to
go there with you."
--
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Daniel James
2020-01-26 12:59:46 UTC
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"I am sorry you didn't care for the illustrations."
That is another example of the use of "care for" in the sense of "like
or have affection for", and is quite normal.
"I don't know that I want to go there with you."
That sort of use of "I don't know that I want X" indicates that the
speaker has some reservations and hasn't yet decided about X ... or
possibly that he has already decided against X but is too polite to say
so.

Just as "I don't know that it will continue to be fine this afternoon"
means "The weather is fine now, but I think it may change this
afternoon", "I don't know that I want to go for a walk" can mean "A
walk might be nice, but I haven't decided" or "A walk might be nice,
but I don't want to miss tea" or "I don't think I want to go for a
walk, but I'm open to persuasion" or "I really don't want to go for a
walk, but you clearly hope I will and I don't want to offend or
disappoint you".
--
Cheers,
Daniel
Anton Shepelev
2020-01-26 13:36:08 UTC
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"I don't know that I want to go there with you."
That sort of use of "I don't know that I want X"
indicates that the speaker has some reservations
and hasn't yet decided about X ... or possibly
that he has already decided against X but is too
polite to say so.
Just as "I don't know that it will continue to be
fine this afternoon" means "The weather is fine
now, but I think it may change this afternoon", "I
don't know that I want to go for a walk" can mean
"A walk might be nice, but I haven't decided" or
"A walk might be nice, but I don't want to miss
tea" or "I don't think I want to go for a walk,
but I'm open to persuasion" or "I really don't
want to go for a walk, but you clearly hope I will
and I don't want to offend or disappoint you".
Thank you, James. I had unerstood the meaning of
the phrase upon the second or third encounter, but I
still find it strange.
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Janet
2020-01-26 14:43:26 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
?????
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
In Br E, "I don't care" in response to such an offer or invitation
would be the equivalent of "Whatever" or "Fergeddaboutit".

Churlish, ungracious, the rude sort of reply made by sullen teenagers.

Janet.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-26 15:23:50 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
?????
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
In Br E, "I don't care" in response to such an offer or invitation
would be the equivalent of "Whatever" or "Fergeddaboutit".
Churlish, ungracious, the rude sort of reply made by sullen teenagers.
It _can_ be used that way in AmE. Context and intonation are all.
Spains Harden
2020-01-26 15:25:39 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
?????
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
In Br E, "I don't care" in response to such an offer or invitation
would be the equivalent of "Whatever" or "Fergeddaboutit".
Churlish, ungracious, the rude sort of reply made by sullen teenagers.
That is maybe a bit harsh. "I don't care" and "I don't mind" can
be expressed politely, and can mean the same thing.

Not so "I don't give an effing toss".
Katy Jennison
2020-01-26 16:35:56 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
?????
I'm with Steve: this is a particular idiom which carries different
meanings depending on where you are, so it also come into the 'false
friend' category. As Janet said, in BrE "I don't care" is dismissive at
least, and I'd do a double-take, as Steve did, if I got that response
under those circumstances.
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."

The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-26 17:11:22 UTC
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[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE.
Katy Jennison
2020-01-26 18:15:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home. The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
--
Katy Jennison
Katy Jennison
2020-01-26 19:18:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE.  In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say.  Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way.  But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any  effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home.  The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one.  In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
It might be worth adding that my generation was taught that saying "I
don't care!" was unacceptable to grown-ups and would result in a
scolding if not a proper punishment, and so we learnt not to say it. It
signified defiance, and children weren't allowed to defy their elders.

There was also a nursery rhyme:

Don't Care was made to care,
Don't Care was hung,
Don't Care was put in a pot
And boiled till he was done.

(We were young at the time, and so we failed to spot the anomalous
'hung' for 'hanged', the casual cruelty, the sexist pronoun, and
anything else which might be wrong with this as an aid to training young
children.)
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-01-26 19:26:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE.  In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say.  Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way.  But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any  effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home.  The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one.  In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
It might be worth adding that my generation was taught that saying "I
don't care!" was unacceptable to grown-ups and would result in a
scolding if not a proper punishment, and so we learnt not to say it.
It signified defiance, and children weren't allowed to defy their
elders.
Don't Care was made to care,
Don't Care was hung,
Don't Care was put in a pot
And boiled till he was done.
(We were young at the time, and so we failed to spot the anomalous
'hung' for 'hanged', the casual cruelty, the sexist pronoun, and
anything else which might be wrong with this as an aid to training
young children.)
Did you have Struwwelpeter when you were a lass? I think in those days
few people saw anything inappropriate in exposing children to casual
cruelty.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2020-01-26 19:56:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
It might be worth adding that my generation was taught that saying "I
don't care!" was unacceptable to grown-ups and would result in a
scolding if not a proper punishment, and so we learnt not to say it.
It signified defiance, and children weren't allowed to defy their elders.
Don't Care was made to care,
Don't Care was hung,
Don't Care was put in a pot
And boiled till he was done.
(We were young at the time, and so we failed to spot the anomalous
'hung' for 'hanged', the casual cruelty, the sexist pronoun, and
anything else which might be wrong with this as an aid to training
young children.)
Did you have Struwwelpeter when you were a lass? I think in those days
few people saw anything inappropriate in exposing children to casual
cruelty.
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we didn't
possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down from
my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened to
naughty children. Some of them were quite funny, although I couldn't
give you any details now.
--
Katy Jennison
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-26 20:40:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
Post by Katy Jennison
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we didn't
possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down from
my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened to
naughty children. Some of them were quite funny, although I couldn't
give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2020-01-27 01:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
Post by Katy Jennison
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we didn't
possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children. Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
phil
2020-01-27 10:20:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we didn't
possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children.  Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was Burned To
Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed description of the child's
combustion, but that seems to have been omitted from all the current
on-line versions.
Lewis
2020-01-27 13:45:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we didn't
possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children.  Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was Burned To
Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed description of the child's
combustion, but that seems to have been omitted from all the current
on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an "original"
version. The book is in the public domain and is available on Project
Gutenberg and the poem in question ends:

“That Night a Fire did break out—
You should have heard Matilda Shout!
You should have heard her Scream and Bawl,
And throw the window up and call
To People passing in the Street—
(The rapidly increasing Heat
Encouraging her to obtain
Their confidence)—but all in vain!
For every time She shouted “Fire!”
They only answered “Little Liar!”
And therefore when her Aunt returned,
Matilda, and the House, were Burned.”

Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”

<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
--
#27794 <Vellius> ... I wonder if the really nerdy Klingons learn how
# to
speak English
phil
2020-01-27 16:10:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we didn't
possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children.  Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was Burned To
Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed description of the child's
combustion, but that seems to have been omitted from all the current
on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an "original"
version. The book is in the public domain and is available on Project
“That Night a Fire did break out—
You should have heard Matilda Shout!
You should have heard her Scream and Bawl,
And throw the window up and call
To People passing in the Street—
(The rapidly increasing Heat
Encouraging her to obtain
Their confidence)—but all in vain!
For every time She shouted “Fire!”
They only answered “Little Liar!”
And therefore when her Aunt returned,
Matilda, and the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I must be
mixing up two rhymes.
Something that I was in the habit of reading with ghoulish fascination
had in it lines that described the progression of the fire to the girl's
clothes and to "her, eyes, her hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems,
by Belloc. Further research needed.
Lewis
2020-01-27 16:39:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we didn't
possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children.  Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was Burned To
Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed description of the child's
combustion, but that seems to have been omitted from all the current
on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an "original"
version. The book is in the public domain and is available on Project
“That Night a Fire did break out—
You should have heard Matilda Shout!
You should have heard her Scream and Bawl,
And throw the window up and call
To People passing in the Street—
(The rapidly increasing Heat
Encouraging her to obtain
Their confidence)—but all in vain!
For every time She shouted “Fire!”
They only answered “Little Liar!”
And therefore when her Aunt returned,
Matilda, and the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I must be
mixing up two rhymes.
That's the sneaky bits of false memories, you never think they are
false.

I have several memories that I definitely remember as well as anything
else in my memory, but I know for a fact they are false. Doesn't change
my memory of them at all.

The only "famous" one is the one about Johnny Carson and Zsa Zsa Gabor
and her cat, which I absolutely clearly remember despite the fact it
never happened.
Post by phil
Something that I was in the habit of reading with ghoulish fascination
had in it lines that described the progression of the fire to the girl's
clothes and to "her, eyes, her hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems,
by Belloc. Further research needed.
The fire in my eyes ... the bend of my hair? Because that poem isn’t
about a real fire!

<BEG>
--
Latet anguis in herba.
phil
2020-01-27 17:07:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 GMT, Katy Jennison
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we didn't
possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down
from my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened
to naughty children.  Some of them were quite funny, although I
couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first published in
1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember that it contained a
lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that still sticks in my mind is
Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was Burned To
Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed description of the child's
combustion, but that seems to have been omitted from all the current
on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an "original"
version. The book is in the public domain and is available on Project
“That Night a Fire did break out—
You should have heard Matilda Shout!
You should have heard her Scream and Bawl,
And throw the window up and call
To People passing in the Street—
(The rapidly increasing Heat
Encouraging her to obtain
Their confidence)—but all in vain!
For every time She shouted “Fire!”
They only answered “Little Liar!”
And therefore when her Aunt returned,
Matilda, and the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I must be
mixing up two rhymes.
That's the sneaky bits of false memories, you never think they are
false.
I have several memories that I definitely remember as well as anything
else in my memory, but I know for a fact they are false. Doesn't change
my memory of them at all.
The only "famous" one is the one about Johnny Carson and Zsa Zsa Gabor
and her cat, which I absolutely clearly remember despite the fact it
never happened.
Post by phil
Something that I was in the habit of reading with ghoulish fascination
had in it lines that described the progression of the fire to the girl's
clothes and to "her, eyes, her hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems,
by Belloc. Further research needed.
The fire in my eyes ... the bend of my hair? Because that poem isn’t
about a real fire!
<BEG>
Ah, there it is! It's Struwwelpeter, "The Dreadful Story of Harriet and
the Matches". It wasn't widely known in UK in the 1950's, but one of my
friends was the son of German parents and I'd read it at his house.
Phew! I knew it was real. (But you're right. Even if it had been a false
memory, I'd still have known it was real.)


"And see! oh, what dreadful thing!
The fire has caught her apron-string;
Her apron burns, her arms, her hair—
She burns all over everywhere.


Then how the pussy-cats did mew—
What else, poor pussies, could they do?
They screamed for help, 'twas all in vain!
So then they said: "We'll scream again;
Make haste, make haste, me-ow, me-o,
She'll burn to death; we told her so."


So she was burnt, with all her clothes,
And arms, and hands, and eyes, and nose;
Till she had nothing more to lose
Except her little scarlet shoes;
And nothing else but these was found
Among her ashes on the ground."
Lewis
2020-01-27 18:28:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
"And see! oh, what dreadful thing!
The fire has caught her apron-string;
Her apron burns, her arms, her hair—
She burns all over everywhere.
Then how the pussy-cats did mew—
What else, poor pussies, could they do?
They screamed for help, 'twas all in vain!
So then they said: "We'll scream again;
Make haste, make haste, me-ow, me-o,
She'll burn to death; we told her so."
So she was burnt, with all her clothes,
And arms, and hands, and eyes, and nose;
Till she had nothing more to lose
Except her little scarlet shoes;
And nothing else but these was found
Among her ashes on the ground."
Wow. I would have LOVED that when I was about 8yo!
--
[Unused] "Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"

Pinky: I think so, Brain, but she'd never leave Mickey. Brain: I
thought we agreed never to discuss that!
Peter Moylan
2020-01-28 06:01:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
"And see! oh, what dreadful thing!
The fire has caught her apron-string;
Her apron burns, her arms, her hair—
She burns all over everywhere.
Then how the pussy-cats did mew—
What else, poor pussies, could they do?
They screamed for help, 'twas all in vain!
So then they said: "We'll scream again;
Make haste, make haste, me-ow, me-o,
She'll burn to death; we told her so."
So she was burnt, with all her clothes,
And arms, and hands, and eyes, and nose;
Till she had nothing more to lose
Except her little scarlet shoes;
And nothing else but these was found
Among her ashes on the ground."
Wow. I would have LOVED that when I was about 8yo!
My eldest child's favourite book, at about that age, was called Fungus
the Bogeyman. The subject matter was disgusting, but I suppose that was
part of the appeal.

I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Janet
2020-01-28 11:54:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <r0oino$9tp$***@dont-email.me>, ***@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....

Janet.
Richard Heathfield
2020-01-28 12:34:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....
But that's only half a story!

Who was it?

(Asking for a friend.)
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Janet
2020-01-28 13:21:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....
But that's only half a story!
Who was it?
Lots of defecators


Post by Richard Heathfield
(Asking for a friend.)
Yeah right :-)



Janet
Richard Heathfield
2020-01-28 14:45:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....
But that's only half a story!
Who was it?
Lots of defecators
http://youtu.be/65uio3V4Qtc
I was very, very, *very* reluctant to follow that link. But I trust you,
so off I went to YouTube, and... well, my faith in you proved to be
well-founded.

How sweet!
Post by Janet
Post by Richard Heathfield
(Asking for a friend.)
Yeah right :-)
Quite so, but I wonder how many people who really *have* been asking for
a friend are nevertheless not believed.

"$14,950,000, just sitting there waiting for me! But I can't spend it
here, and even though I'm willing to give half of it away, I can't get
it out of the country because nobody in the West will answer my bloody
emails!"
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
2020-01-29 00:08:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....
But that's only half a story!
Who was it?
(Asking for a friend.)
Colonel Mustard, in the drawing room.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-28 15:41:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Peter Moylan
I'm told that books about excrement are current popular with young children.
My grandson's Christmas present to me last month, was a card game
called " Who did this poo?".
It's fun, and surprisingly educational....
Educating you to be a tracker! Probably not much call for that in the
Scottish isles ...
Quinn C
2020-01-28 18:13:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
So she was burnt, with all her clothes,
And arms, and hands, and eyes, and nose;
Till she had nothing more to lose
Except her little scarlet shoes;
And nothing else but these was found
Among her ashes on the ground."
Wow. I would have LOVED that when I was about 8yo!
I still got it read to me, but it started to be decried as "black
pedagogy" not much later.

I think I was more scared by the stories of dark woods, i.e. Hansel and
Gretel, Red Riding Hood etc.
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi
CDB
2020-01-27 18:31:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
Post by Katy Jennison
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we
didn't possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes
(handed down from my grandparents' childhoods) in which
salutary things happened to naughty children. Some of them
were quite funny, although I couldn't give you any details
now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he
sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first
published in 1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember
that it contained a lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that
still sticks in my mind is Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for
Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was
Burned To Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed
description of the child's combustion, but that seems to have
been omitted from all the current on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an
"original" version. The book is in the public domain and is
“That Night a Fire did break out— You should have heard Matilda
Shout! You should have heard her Scream and Bawl, And throw the
window up and call To People passing in the Street— (The rapidly
increasing Heat Encouraging her to obtain Their confidence)—but all
in vain! For every time She shouted “Fire!” They only answered
“Little Liar!” And therefore when her Aunt returned, Matilda, and
the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I must
be mixing up two rhymes. Something that I was in the habit of reading
with ghoulish fascination had in it lines that described the
progression of the fire to the girl's clothes and to "her, eyes, her
hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems, by Belloc. Further research
needed.
i thoght it might be by Edward Gorey, and went looking. In fact it does
seem to be Belloc's, as this ad confirms:

<https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/cautionary-tales-for-children-edward-gorey/1103016486?ean=9780151007158>

https://tinyurl.com/w97dh9n
phil
2020-01-27 19:24:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we
didn't possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes
(handed down from my grandparents' childhoods) in which
salutary things happened to naughty children.  Some of them
were quite funny, although I couldn't give you any details
now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he
sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first
published in 1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember
that it contained a lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that
still sticks in my mind is Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for
Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was
Burned To Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed
description of the child's combustion, but that seems to have
been omitted from all the current on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an
"original" version. The book is in the public domain and is
“That Night a Fire did break out— You should have heard Matilda
Shout! You should have heard her Scream and Bawl, And throw the
window up and call To People passing in the Street— (The rapidly
increasing Heat Encouraging her to obtain Their confidence)—but all
in vain! For every time She shouted “Fire!” They only answered
“Little Liar!” And therefore when her Aunt returned, Matilda, and
the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I must
be mixing up two rhymes. Something that I was in the habit of reading
with ghoulish fascination had in it lines that described the
progression of the fire to the girl's clothes and to "her, eyes, her
hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems, by Belloc. Further research
needed.
i thoght it might be by Edward Gorey, and went looking.  In fact it does
<https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/cautionary-tales-for-children-edward-gorey/1103016486?ean=9780151007158>
https://tinyurl.com/w97dh9n
Yes, "Matilda" is by Belloc, but my memory had mixed up that poem with
the one by Heinrich Hoffman. I'm not surprised -- both books lived at
the house of the same friend, and the general theme of small girls being
burnt to death was what had stuck in my innocent childhood mind.

Then there was Grimm's Fairy Tales, from which I clearly remember an
illustration showing the heads of three women (witches?) being struck
off with one blow of a sword.
CDB
2020-01-27 20:05:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Post by CDB
Post by phil
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
Post by Katy Jennison
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well
and we didn't possess a copy. We did have a few
Victorian volumes (handed down from my grandparents'
childhoods) in which salutary things happened to
naughty children. Some of them were quite funny,
although I couldn't give you any details now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he
sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first
published in 1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I
remember that it contained a lot of casual cruelty. The one
picture that still sticks in my mind is Cole's Patent
Whipping Machine for Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And
Was Burned To Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed
description of the child's combustion, but that seems to
have been omitted from all the current on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an
"original" version. The book is in the public domain and is
“That Night a Fire did break out— You should have heard
Matilda Shout! You should have heard her Scream and Bawl, And
throw the window up and call To People passing in the Street—
(The rapidly increasing Heat Encouraging her to obtain Their
confidence)—but all in vain! For every time She shouted “Fire!”
They only answered “Little Liar!” And therefore when her Aunt
returned, Matilda, and the House, were Burned.”
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. “Cautionary Tales for Children.”
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
Yes, I'm puzzled now. I don't think it's a false memory, but I
must be mixing up two rhymes. Something that I was in the habit
of reading with ghoulish fascination had in it lines that
described the progression of the fire to the girl's clothes and
to "her, eyes, her hair". It was a poem, but not, it seems, by
Belloc. Further research needed.
i thoght it might be by Edward Gorey, and went looking. In fact it
<https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/cautionary-tales-for-children-edward-gorey/1103016486?ean=9780151007158>
https://tinyurl.com/w97dh9n
Yes, "Matilda" is by Belloc, but my memory had mixed up that poem
with the one by Heinrich Hoffman. I'm not surprised -- both books
lived at the house of the same friend, and the general theme of small
girls being burnt to death was what had stuck in my innocent
childhood mind.
Then there was Grimm's Fairy Tales, from which I clearly remember an
illustration showing the heads of three women (witches?) being
struck off with one blow of a sword.
They were not a bit humorous, but they had staying power. The Grimm
stories have faded, but I still remember the witch who was forced to put
on red-hot shoes and dance until she fell over dead, and the one who was
put into a barrel with many spikes driven into it and rolled downhill
into the river to drown.
RH Draney
2020-01-28 00:54:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by phil
Yes, "Matilda" is by Belloc, but my memory had mixed up that poem
with the one by Heinrich Hoffman. I'm not surprised -- both books
lived at the house of the same friend, and the general theme of small
girls being burnt to death was what had stuck in my innocent
childhood mind.
Then there was Grimm's Fairy Tales, from which I clearly remember an
 illustration showing the heads of three women (witches?) being
struck off with one blow of a sword.
They were not a bit humorous, but they had staying power.  The Grimm
stories have faded, but I still remember the witch who was forced to put
on red-hot shoes and dance until she fell over dead, and the one who was
put into a barrel with many spikes driven into it and rolled downhill
into the river to drown.
Keep it up!...this is turning into some real Frank Frazetta stuff!...r
Janet
2020-01-28 12:36:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we
didn't possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes
(handed down from my grandparents' childhoods) in which
salutary things happened to naughty children.  Some of them
were quite funny, although I couldn't give you any details
now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he
sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first
published in 1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember
that it contained a lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that
still sticks in my mind is Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for
Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was
Burned To Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed
description of the child's combustion, but that seems to have
been omitted from all the current on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an
"original" version. The book is in the public domain and is
?That Night a Fire did break out? You should have heard Matilda
Shout! You should have heard her Scream and Bawl, And throw the
window up and call To People passing in the Street? (The rapidly
increasing Heat Encouraging her to obtain Their confidence)?but all
in vain! For every time She shouted ?Fire!? They only answered
?Little Liar!? And therefore when her Aunt returned, Matilda, and
the House, were Burned.?
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. ?Cautionary Tales for Children.?
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
We had the excruciating "Ears for little Gleaners", a book of scary
religious stories for children which came our way via an auctioned
mystery-box.

I can only recall two of them now. One was about a dishonest child
whose punishment for every lie, was to hammer a huge ugly nail into the
front door of his home. Eventually he admitted to Father he had begun
to feel bitterly ashamed of the ruined door. Father replied WTE "Now you
know how I feel every time you commit a sin".

The other one was about a missionary's child who knelt beside her bed
to say her prayers, and spotted the large black foot of an intruder
hiding beneath it. In her prayers she asked God to forgive and bless the
bad man under her bed, so they would meet again in heaven. The robber
was so mortified he jumped out of the window and ran away.

Janet.
Lewis
2020-01-28 14:15:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Lewis
Post by phil
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well  and we
didn't possess a copy.  We did have a few Victorian volumes
(handed down from my grandparents' childhoods) in which
salutary things happened to naughty children.  Some of them
were quite funny, although I couldn't give you any details
now.
"Speak harshly to your little boy and beat him when he
sneezes" etc.
We had something called Coles Funny Picture Book, first
published in 1879. I didn't find it very funny, but I remember
that it contained a lot of casual cruelty. The one picture that
still sticks in my mind is Cole's Patent Whipping Machine for
Flogging Naughty Boys.
I remember being fascinated by 'Matilda, Who Told Lies And Was
Burned To Death'. As I recall, it contained a detailed
description of the child's combustion, but that seems to have
been omitted from all the current on-line versions.
I think that might be a false memory. I see no evidence of an
"original" version. The book is in the public domain and is
?That Night a Fire did break out? You should have heard Matilda
Shout! You should have heard her Scream and Bawl, And throw the
window up and call To People passing in the Street? (The rapidly
increasing Heat Encouraging her to obtain Their confidence)?but all
in vain! For every time She shouted ?Fire!? They only answered
?Little Liar!? And therefore when her Aunt returned, Matilda, and
the House, were Burned.?
Excerpt From: Hilaire Belloc. ?Cautionary Tales for Children.?
<https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/27424>
We had the excruciating "Ears for little Gleaners", a book of scary
religious stories for children which came our way via an auctioned
mystery-box.
I can only recall two of them now. One was about a dishonest child
whose punishment for every lie, was to hammer a huge ugly nail into the
front door of his home. Eventually he admitted to Father he had begun
to feel bitterly ashamed of the ruined door. Father replied WTE "Now you
know how I feel every time you commit a sin".
Subtle!
Post by Janet
The other one was about a missionary's child who knelt beside her bed
to say her prayers, and spotted the large black foot of an intruder
hiding beneath it. In her prayers she asked God to forgive and bless the
bad man under her bed, so they would meet again in heaven. The robber
was so mortified he jumped out of the window and ran away.
Oh, well, now that one is just objectively dreadful. What a lesson,
"Strange man under your bed? Just pray, he'll go away."
--
"Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time."
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-26 21:35:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
It might be worth adding that my generation was taught that saying "I
don't care!" was unacceptable to grown-ups and would result in a
scolding if not a proper punishment, and so we learnt not to say it.
It signified defiance, and children weren't allowed to defy their elders.
Don't Care was made to care,
Don't Care was hung,
Don't Care was put in a pot
And boiled till he was done.
(We were young at the time, and so we failed to spot the anomalous
'hung' for 'hanged', the casual cruelty, the sexist pronoun, and
anything else which might be wrong with this as an aid to training
young children.)
Did you have Struwwelpeter when you were a lass? I think in those days
few people saw anything inappropriate in exposing children to casual
cruelty.
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we didn't
possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down from
my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened to
naughty children. Some of them were quite funny, although I couldn't
give you any details now.
We had Gelett Burgess's *Goops* and *More Goops*. Lovely (Edwardian?)
line drawings of naughty children doing very naughty things.
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-27 01:54:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:56:38 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
[snip]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
It might be worth adding that my generation was taught that saying "I
don't care!" was unacceptable to grown-ups and would result in a
scolding if not a proper punishment, and so we learnt not to say it.
It signified defiance, and children weren't allowed to defy their elders.
Don't Care was made to care,
Don't Care was hung,
Don't Care was put in a pot
And boiled till he was done.
(We were young at the time, and so we failed to spot the anomalous
'hung' for 'hanged', the casual cruelty, the sexist pronoun, and
anything else which might be wrong with this as an aid to training
young children.)
Did you have Struwwelpeter when you were a lass? I think in those days
few people saw anything inappropriate in exposing children to casual
cruelty.
I came across it, but I don't remember it very well and we didn't
possess a copy. We did have a few Victorian volumes (handed down from
my grandparents' childhoods) in which salutary things happened to
naughty children. Some of them were quite funny, although I couldn't
give you any details now.
Augustus was a chubby lad?

My mum would often recite that to me because I had a poor appetite
when I was a child.

Brings up another issue: Did you serve yourself from dishes on the
table when you were a child? Or did your mum put food on your plate
that you were expected to eat?
John Varela
2020-01-27 20:51:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Brings up another issue: Did you serve yourself from dishes on the
table when you were a child? Or did your mum put food on your plate
that you were expected to eat?
It depended in part on what was in the dishes. One thing I recall
for certain was that if I had put it on the plate I had to eat all
of it. If an adult had put it on the plate (turnips, perhaps) I
might not have had to eat all of it but I at least had to taste it.
--
John Varela
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-27 21:22:58 UTC
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Post by John Varela
Post by Mack A. Damia
Brings up another issue: Did you serve yourself from dishes on the
table when you were a child? Or did your mum put food on your plate
that you were expected to eat?
It depended in part on what was in the dishes. One thing I recall
for certain was that if I had put it on the plate I had to eat all
of it. If an adult had put it on the plate (turnips, perhaps) I
might not have had to eat all of it but I at least had to taste it.
It was always mum who served the food, and I was expected to eat it
all. I had a poor appetite, and that often resulted in unpleasant
dinners. Not good parenting. I started to have digestion problems in
my teens.

When I got married in 1968, it was her dad who served the food onto
your plate**, but by that time, I could eat like a horse.

**Thinking it may have been just the main course, the meat. You could
serve yourself the side dishes, I think. Hard to remember.
Tony Cooper
2020-01-27 01:39:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:15:19 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home. The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
While "I don't care" is the more natural choice, "I don't mind is
certainly possible.

Person: "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?"

Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?

Person: I don't mind.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
s***@gmail.com
2020-01-27 06:06:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:15:19 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home. The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Using "I don't care" in a selection situation has, for me,
a shrug of the shoulders.
Not necessarily "I'm not putting any effort into think about it",
but definitely a shrug of the shoulders.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Among other possible meanings.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
While "I don't care" is the more natural choice, "I don't mind is
certainly possible.
Person: "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?"
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?

B: I don't mind if I do!

/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 14:42:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:15:19 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home. The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Using "I don't care" in a selection situation has, for me,
a shrug of the shoulders.
Not necessarily "I'm not putting any effort into think about it",
but definitely a shrug of the shoulders.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Among other possible meanings.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
While "I don't care" is the more natural choice, "I don't mind is
certainly possible.
Person: "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?"
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")

Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Katy Jennison
2020-01-27 15:06:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
--
Katy Jennison
Lanarcam
2020-01-27 15:09:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars.  Is that OK with you?
Person:  I don't mind.
A:  Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.  You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging.  We're the
ones who mind.  The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable.  It isn't.
+1
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 15:14:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
Will you continue to defend Bob Cunningham and Reinhold "Rey" Aman?
Their inappropriate behavior has ceased. And those who provoke such
responses in the present day?

However, to attend to the content of the example instead of to the
grammatical/semantic point being made is the same sort of misdirection
employed by Oxford University Press in refusing to publish Georgia
Green's dissertation because its examples contained political content
that may have proved offensive to supporters of the Vietnam War and
the presidency of Richard Nixon.
Katy Jennison
2020-01-27 16:08:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
Will you continue to defend Bob Cunningham and Reinhold "Rey" Aman?
Their inappropriate behavior has ceased. And those who provoke such
responses in the present day?
However, to attend to the content of the example instead of to the
grammatical/semantic point being made is the same sort of misdirection
employed by Oxford University Press in refusing to publish Georgia
Green's dissertation because its examples contained political content
that may have proved offensive to supporters of the Vietnam War and
the presidency of Richard Nixon.
You'll notice, if you read it again, that I used both 'care' and 'mind'
in context in the above, in their BrE senses.
--
Katy Jennison
John Varela
2020-01-27 21:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 16:08:10 UTC, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
Will you continue to defend Bob Cunningham and Reinhold "Rey" Aman?
Their inappropriate behavior has ceased. And those who provoke such
responses in the present day?
However, to attend to the content of the example instead of to the
grammatical/semantic point being made is the same sort of misdirection
employed by Oxford University Press in refusing to publish Georgia
Green's dissertation because its examples contained political content
that may have proved offensive to supporters of the Vietnam War and
the presidency of Richard Nixon.
You'll notice, if you read it again, that I used both 'care' and 'mind'
in context in the above, in their BrE senses.
Surely someone will correct me, but: I think "care" and "mind" could
be swapped in those sentences without changing the meanings or
insulting anyone.
--
John Varela
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-27 22:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 16:08:10 UTC, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
Will you continue to defend Bob Cunningham and Reinhold "Rey" Aman?
Their inappropriate behavior has ceased. And those who provoke such
responses in the present day?
However, to attend to the content of the example instead of to the
grammatical/semantic point being made is the same sort of misdirection
employed by Oxford University Press in refusing to publish Georgia
Green's dissertation because its examples contained political content
that may have proved offensive to supporters of the Vietnam War and
the presidency of Richard Nixon.
You'll notice, if you read it again, that I used both 'care' and 'mind'
in context in the above, in their BrE senses.
Surely someone will correct me, but: I think "care" and "mind" could
be swapped in those sentences without changing the meanings or
insulting anyone.
That would work for me.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 21:32:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
Will you continue to defend Bob Cunningham and Reinhold "Rey" Aman?
Their inappropriate behavior has ceased. And those who provoke such
responses in the present day?
However, to attend to the content of the example instead of to the
grammatical/semantic point being made is the same sort of misdirection
employed by Oxford University Press in refusing to publish Georgia
Green's dissertation because its examples contained political content
that may have proved offensive to supporters of the Vietnam War and
the presidency of Richard Nixon.
You'll notice, if you read it again, that I used both 'care' and 'mind'
in context in the above, in their BrE senses.
Of course I noticed. You kindly used them in fine AmE senses. But now
you're being as evasive as Trump's "defense" team in the Senate trial!
Richard Heathfield
2020-01-27 15:29:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars.  Is that OK with you?
Person:  I don't mind.
A:  Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.  You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging.  We're the
ones who mind.  The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable.  It isn't.
<applause>
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-27 15:42:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially offend
many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd prefer
the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better without these
ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and might stay and
contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous mud-slinging. We're the
ones who mind. The only people who benefit are the trolls who
increasingly perceive this as the kind of place where trollish behaviour
is acceptable. It isn't.
I have observed in my lifetime that lots of people and groups ad
nauseam who think they are civilized are far from it.

Everybody has a different definition of "civilized". How do you like
your steak done?
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-27 17:19:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't
care to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind"
acknowledges the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care"
acknowledges it and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to
it and he's well-balanced enough not to care. You do potentially
offend many of the rest of us, not only the remaining old hands who'd
prefer the original civilised newsgroup which functioned better
without these ad hominem insults, and any new people who wander in and
might stay and contribute if they weren't offput by gratuitous
mud-slinging. We're the ones who mind. The only people who benefit
are the trolls who increasingly perceive this as the kind of place
where trollish behaviour is acceptable. It isn't.
I have observed in my lifetime that lots of people and groups ad
nauseam who think they are civilized are far from it.
Everybody has a different definition of "civilized". How do you like
your steak done?
Quite; eating meat is an abomination.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2020-01-27 17:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Mack A. Damia
Everybody has a different definition of "civilized". How do you like
your steak done?
Quite; eating meat is an abomination.
And not eating it is rude....r
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-27 18:22:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Mack A. Damia
Everybody has a different definition of "civilized". How do you like
your steak done?
Quite; eating meat is an abomination.
And not eating it is rude....r
\|||/
(o o)
,--oo0--------------.
| Please |
| Don't Feed |
| The TROLL |
'--------------oo0---
|__| |__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-27 19:13:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:42:29 GMT, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
Everybody has a different definition of "civilized". How do you
like your steak done?
Quite; eating meat is an abomination.
And not eating it is rude....r
\|||/
(o o)
,--oo0--------------.
| Please |
| Don't Feed |
| The TROLL |
'--------------oo0---
|__| |__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Well; indeed. Muesli anyone?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2020-01-27 16:53:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.
Personal anecdote: When I was dating my now-wife, her roommate was
dating a psychiatry Resident and the roommate was a psychiatric nurse.
Our social group included two other psychiatry Residents and another
psychiatric nurse.

At a dinner party one night the subject turned to marriage and the
odds of a marriage being successful. My wife's roommate's boyfriend
commented that "Tony and Kathy will make it. He's very well
adjusted".

Actually, my reaction that night was close to being offended. Somehow
I took that as meaning that I was boringly normal.

At any rate, the prognostication was spot-on. We've made it for 57
years.

For those more familiar with the UK system, a "Resident" in the US is
comparable to Specialty Registrar in the UK. After completing
Residency, the doctor is qualified to enter private practice in the
specialty.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2020-01-27 19:29:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 11:53:33 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.
Personal anecdote: When I was dating my now-wife, her roommate was
dating a psychiatry Resident and the roommate was a psychiatric nurse.
Our social group included two other psychiatry Residents and another
psychiatric nurse.
At a dinner party one night the subject turned to marriage and the
odds of a marriage being successful. My wife's roommate's boyfriend
commented that "Tony and Kathy will make it. He's very well
adjusted".
Actually, my reaction that night was close to being offended. Somehow
I took that as meaning that I was boringly normal.
At any rate, the prognostication was spot-on. We've made it for 57
years.
For those more familiar with the UK system, a "Resident" in the US is
comparable to Specialty Registrar in the UK. After completing
Residency, the doctor is qualified to enter private practice in the
specialty.
In unasked-for follow-up, the physiatrist and my now-wife's former
roommate dated for five or six years after that evening. They never
married because he felt his mother would not accept him marrying a
non-Jew. The roommate later moved to Israel and is now married to a
professor at the University of Haifa.

We remained in contact with the psychiatrist and the roommate. He
died, still unmarried to anyone, a few years ago. The roommate and my
wife routinely exchange emails.

One of the other psychiatrists and one of the psychiatric nurses did
marry, but he committed suicide a few years later. She came home from
work and found him hanged from the loft in their home.

We lost track of the rest of group.

I guess being boringly normal is not that bad.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2020-01-27 20:48:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.
Personal anecdote: When I was dating my now-wife, her roommate was
dating a psychiatry Resident and the roommate was a psychiatric nurse.
Our social group included two other psychiatry Residents and another
psychiatric nurse.
At a dinner party one night the subject turned to marriage and the
odds of a marriage being successful. My wife's roommate's boyfriend
commented that "Tony and Kathy will make it. He's very well
adjusted".
Actually, my reaction that night was close to being offended. Somehow
I took that as meaning that I was boringly normal.
Understandable reaction. "Well-adjusted" as a term of
approval seems to have been popular in the psych
professions since the 19th century, but in the 50s
it was turned around (by the emergent counter-culture)
to mean something like "conformist".
Post by Mack A. Damia
At any rate, the prognostication was spot-on. We've made it for 57
years.
Well done, you two.
Richard Heathfield
2020-01-27 17:22:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 27/01/2020 16:58, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who killfile
him are "afraid" to read his posts.
Absolutely terrified, Tony.

I lie awake at night, *every* night, morbidly afraid that Thunderbird's
message filtering might one day screw up and let one of PTD's articles
slip through into my feed. I haven't slept properly for years.

But it was becoming such a problem that I decided at last to address it.
I have therefore taken a few precautions that I think you'll agree are
very sensible:

(1) A Post-it note on the screen, bearing the number of the local
university's psychotherapy hotline (and, for some reason, a shopping
list and a couple of anagrams of the word "sprite");
(2) Telephone on the desk, with 999 programmed into single-key speed
dial, in case I need to call the emergency services;
(3) Tub of skin cream, lest you can catch irrationality[1] over an IP
connection;
(4) Half a dozen attack sharks on constant standby, so that if one of
his articles gets through all my defences I can at least launch a
retaliatory strike.

Yep, I think I've got it covered...
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
[1] Admittedly not a great pun, but marginally better if read aloud.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 21:38:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who killfile
him are "afraid" to read his posts.
Absolutely terrified, Tony.
I lie awake at night, *every* night, morbidly afraid that Thunderbird's
message filtering might one day screw up and let one of PTD's articles
slip through into my feed. I haven't slept properly for years.
What does he think would happen if he did? Someone might point out to him
that I have not commented on a single one of his postings since his recent
abrupt return, save once this morning to praise a joke he made.
Katy Jennison
2020-01-27 17:41:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 27/01/2020 16:58, Tony Cooper wrote:

[re PTD]
Never, when he is clearly shown to be
wrong, does he ever admit error.
To be completely fair to everyone, he does occasionally admit to being
mistaken. I thought I'd saved examples of these rare gems, but I can't
seem to find one now; but they do exist.
--
Katy Jennison
Lewis
2020-01-27 18:38:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who killfile
him are "afraid" to read his posts.
That is the proof he is a troll, because trolls demand attention as that
is their only motivation for posting. PTD is deeply offended and hurt
that anyone would not want to read his garbage, so he lashes out with
nonsense like "afraid" and "coward" because, to his tiny-mind<1> being
ignored is the worst possible insult anyone can bestow on him.

This is why I have him killfiled, because I know it makes him angry and
hurts with precious little feelings. The side benefit, of course, is I
don't have to read his nonsense, invective, blather, or have to deal
With his high emissions of bozons.

No, not bosons, bozons.
--
The only reason for walking into the jaws of Death is so's you can
steal His gold teeth. --Colour of Magic
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-27 19:32:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:38:15 GMT, Lewis
Post by Lewis
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who
killfile him are "afraid" to read his posts.
That is the proof he is a troll, because trolls demand attention as
that is their only motivation for posting. PTD is deeply offended and
hurt that anyone would not want to read his garbage, so he lashes out
with nonsense like "afraid" and "coward" because, to his tiny-mind<1>
being ignored is the worst possible insult anyone can bestow on him.
This is why I have him killfiled, because I know it makes him angry
and hurts with precious little feelings. The side benefit, of course,
is I don't have to read his nonsense, invective, blather, or have to
deal With his high emissions of bozons.
No, not bosons, bozons.
Only by totally ignoring someone of that ilk can you win.
Clearly Peeler, Burke and others are beyond redemption.

I apologised, I believe, for responding badly to PTD in the past; no-
one's perfect.

PTD might have something to say to educate those of us without the
academic years that he spent on obscure grammar and Middle Eastern
languages, but it's too much like hard work for me with his automatic
gainsaying and refusal to realise others have (and had) different
experiences to his.

I'll leave it to TOny COOpEr to battle with PTD's errors.
(caps letters here to counter the *'s that he gets from PTD)

The KF has helped me. This is Free Advice and worth every penny you paid
for it.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 21:44:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:38:15 GMT, Lewis
Post by Lewis
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who
killfile him are "afraid" to read his posts.
That is the proof he is a troll, because trolls demand attention as
that is their only motivation for posting. PTD is deeply offended and
hurt that anyone would not want to read his garbage, so he lashes out
with nonsense like "afraid" and "coward" because, to his tiny-mind<1>
being ignored is the worst possible insult anyone can bestow on him.
This is why I have him killfiled, because I know it makes him angry
and hurts with precious little feelings. The side benefit, of course,
is I don't have to read his nonsense, invective, blather, or have to
deal With his high emissions of bozons.
No, not bosons, bozons.
Only by totally ignoring someone of that ilk can you win.
Clearly Peeler, Burke and others are beyond redemption.
I apologised, I believe, for responding badly to PTD in the past; no-
one's perfect.
PTD might have something to say to educate those of us without the
academic years that he spent on obscure grammar and Middle Eastern
languages, but it's too much like hard work for me with his automatic
gainsaying and refusal to realise others have (and had) different
experiences to his.
I'll leave it to TOny COOpEr to battle with PTD's errors.
(caps letters here to counter the *'s that he gets from PTD)
The KF has helped me. This is Free Advice and worth every penny you paid
for it.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
So. Mudd starts up again. How many weeks this time did he manage to
control his impulse to lash out and slander unprovoked?
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 21:40:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who killfile
him are "afraid" to read his posts.
That is the proof he is a troll, because trolls demand attention as that
is their only motivation for posting. PTD is deeply offended and hurt
that anyone would not want to read his garbage,
So "evaluated" by someone who refuses (for utterly unknown reasons)
to do so.
Lewis
2020-01-27 22:38:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Also amusing to me is his oft-repeated comment that those who killfile
him are "afraid" to read his posts.
That is the proof he is a troll, because trolls demand attention as that
is their only motivation for posting. PTD is deeply offended and hurt
that anyone would not want to read his garbage, so he lashes out with
nonsense like "afraid" and "coward" because, to his tiny-mind<1> being
ignored is the worst possible insult anyone can bestow on him.
This is why I have him killfiled, because I know it makes him angry and
hurts with precious little feelings. The side benefit, of course, is I
don't have to read his nonsense, invective, blather, or have to deal
With his high emissions of bozons.
No, not bosons, bozons.
forgot the footnote

<1> as in small minded.
--
Someone's behind this. Someone wants to see a war. [...] I've got to
remember that. This isn't a war. This is a crime. --Jingo
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 21:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 15:06:30 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
A: Have some mints?
B: I don't mind if I do!
No way could you respond "I don't care if I do" there! ("I don't care
to" would be a rude version of "No, thanks!")
Compare "You're liable to offend T*ny C**p*r if you keep calling him
'moron.'" The two responses are very slightly different: "mind" acknowledges
the offense and slightly regrets its effect; "care" acknowledges it
and expresses no regret at all.
Actually I suspect you don't offend Tony at all, because he's used to it
and he's well-balanced enough not to care.
No, it doesn't offend me. In fact, it rather amuses me. Here's a
person in a group of mostly highly-intelligent people with a much
greater-than-average ability to use words with effectiveness and
imagination and he resorts to playground taunts. Moreover, that
person allegedly
factually
Post by Mack A. Damia
makes
made
Post by Mack A. Damia
a living re-writing the words of others to
provide the most efficacious use of our language. And the best he
came up with is "Moron"!
What would you prefer?
Lanarcam
2020-01-27 21:41:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
a living re-writing the words of others to
provide the most efficacious use of our language. And the best he
came up with is "Moron"!
What would you prefer?
That you abstain from that sort of puerility.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-01-27 14:36:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 18:15:19 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[doubtless the original cross-posting, from wherever, is utterly lost]
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't care" and "I don't mind" are different and unrelated.
"I don't care" is 'it makes no difference to me; either coffee or tea
would be just fine'.
Not in BrE. In BrE that reply to that query would be rather like saying
"I don't give a fuck -- don't bother me with stupid questions, you
moron, just bring me a drink."
The American may honestly believe that what he's saying is the
equivalent of "I really don't mind -- whatever you're having, or
whichever is the most convenient -- thank you very much!" which is more
or less what a polite Brit or South African or other non-Americans would
say. Fortunately for the American, many of us would, like Steve,
generously interpret "I don't care" that way. But not everyone would,
and if it's not in a handbook of 'False Friends For Americans Abroad' it
ought to be.
What about "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?" "I don't care, you choose."
That would suggest that you weren't prepared to put any effort into
thinking about it, didn't particularly want to see either movie anyway,
and you'd just as soon stay at home. The BrE would be "I don't mind,
you choose", as below.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
"I don't mind" is 'I'm not offended'.
Not in BrE; or rather, it means several alternative things, and in this
context it doesn't mean that one. In this context it means precisely "I
have no preference".
That's definitely not possible in AmE. >
We need that False Friend Handbook on both sides of the pond.
While "I don't care" is the more natural choice, "I don't mind is
certainly possible.
Person: "Which movie should we go to, the new Star Wars or the new
Avengers?"
Person B: I'd rather see Star Wars. Is that OK with you?
Person: I don't mind.
Exactly -- after the choice has been made, Person A clarifies that they(sg)
didn't care which one they(pl) went to. (I chose those examples to hopefully
have equal appeal to anyone who likes such movies.)

Hmm, a context where the grammatical number of "they" makes a difference!
Ross
2020-01-27 04:14:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would you
mind bringing me a snack?"
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
That seems likely to me. "When you get time" is
parenthetical; your original presentation without
commas may have confused some people.
The idiom which is dialectally variable is "care to".
OED has "to be inclined or disposed to, to think it worth while to do". I think the only place it occurs naturally
for me is in just this sort of question
"Would you care to...?" which is a kind of
request. But the exact tone seems a bit tricky to me --
it could be polite, or it could be sarcastic
("Could you be bothered...?")
CDB
2020-01-27 12:13:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me
a snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that
expression? Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in
ways that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But
if you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
So if someone says "You care when you get time to get me a snack?"
I would translate it into my dialect as "When you have time would
you mind bringing me a snack?"
Yes. It's the interrogative-conditional polarity (if I may) that makes
all the difference.
That seems likely to me. "When you get time" is parenthetical; your
original presentation without commas may have confused some people.
The idiom which is dialectally variable is "care to". OED has "to be
inclined or disposed to, to think it worth while to do". I think the
only place it occurs naturally for me is in just this sort of
question "Would you care to...?" which is a kind of request. But the
exact tone seems a bit tricky to me -- it could be polite, or it
could be sarcastic ("Could you be bothered...?")`
Perhaps not in the area where it is idiomatic. I agree that "would you
care to ...?" is exactly the full form of the phrase in the OP question,
pace the distracting introduction of "don't care". It is a
perfectly polite way of making a request, especially as qualified by the
OP adverbial clause. The literal meaning is "would you like"?, but the
standard English equivalent is "would you mind?". It would probably be
addressed to someone who had gotten up for some other purpose.

The idiom is from the US South, where good linguistic manners are still
a little old-fashioned, and a proper response might be along the lines
of "Why, I'd be pleased to do that, as soon as I see what's ailing the
child".
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-27 18:45:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...

That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such. But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.

Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2020-01-27 23:36:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Steve Hayes
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...
That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such. But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.
Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
It seems to me that the first one can be much softened by adding one or
two words: "I don't care which", "I don't care either way." Am I right?

The terse phrase may sometimes be an inept shortening with the intent
of a longer one.
--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Katy Jennison
2020-01-28 08:01:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Steve Hayes
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...
That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such. But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.
Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
It seems to me that the first one can be much softened by adding one or
two words: "I don't care which", "I don't care either way." Am I right?
Not in BrE, no: in the context given, those would still come across as
rude or dismissive. I can't speak for elsewhere.
--
Katy Jennison
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-28 14:50:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've noticed that in at least some  US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...
That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such.  But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.
Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
It seems to me that the first one can be much softened by adding one or
two words: "I don't care which", "I don't care either way." Am I right?
Not in BrE, no: in the context given, those would still come across as
rude or dismissive.  I can't speak for elsewhere.
Not for me either. "I'm fine either way" would be a lot better. in my
American experience.

There's the additional problem (which I'm afraid I cause in other
circumstances, such as deciding where to go for dinner, but not this
one) that the person asking really does want to know what the guest
wants, and not expressing a preference doesn't make things any easier.
--
Jerry Friedman
Katy Jennison
2020-01-28 15:04:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've noticed that in at least some  US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...
That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such.  But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.
Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
It seems to me that the first one can be much softened by adding one or
two words: "I don't care which", "I don't care either way." Am I right?
Not in BrE, no: in the context given, those would still come across as
rude or dismissive.  I can't speak for elsewhere.
Not for me either.  "I'm fine either way" would be a lot better. in my
American experience.
That would be fine in BrE too.
There's the additional problem (which I'm afraid I cause in other
circumstances, such as deciding where to go for dinner, but not this
one) that the person asking really does want to know what the guest
wants, and not expressing a preference doesn't make things any easier.
I admit to being guilty of this one. And I'm probably even more
exasperating than you are, because I'm much better at thinking of places
I don't like than places I do.
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2020-01-28 16:37:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:04:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
I've noticed that in at least some  US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
...
That "I don't care" sounds strange to me, maybe like a young person
who doesn't realize that they could say "Whatever is more convenient"
or some such.  But for all I know there could be dialects where "I
don't care" is polite.
Like other Americans, I find "I don't mind" extremely strange in that
situation.
It seems to me that the first one can be much softened by adding one or
two words: "I don't care which", "I don't care either way." Am I right?
Not in BrE, no: in the context given, those would still come across as
rude or dismissive.  I can't speak for elsewhere.
Not for me either.  "I'm fine either way" would be a lot better. in my
American experience.
That would be fine in BrE too.
There's the additional problem (which I'm afraid I cause in other
circumstances, such as deciding where to go for dinner, but not this
one) that the person asking really does want to know what the guest
wants, and not expressing a preference doesn't make things any easier.
I admit to being guilty of this one. And I'm probably even more
exasperating than you are, because I'm much better at thinking of places
I don't like than places I do.
I'll call you Katy and raise you a Kathy. When I suggest going out to
dinner, or stopping for dinner on the way back from something, I
always ask my wife where she would like to go. That question is
*always* bounced back as "Where do you want to go?".

This is a woman who is not at all indecisive or hesitant to express
her preference or opinion in other areas.

I counter this when she says she's going to the store and asks me if
there's anything I would like added to the order. I can never think
of anything until after she returns.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Steve Hayes
2020-01-28 02:55:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 10:59:17 +0300, Opinicus
Recently heard someone say "You care when you get time to get me a
snack?" The speaker is US Midwestern (Missouri), white, lower
middle-class, and highschool education at most.
"You care when you get time"? Has anyone else heard that expression?
Or was it just mispoken? Google turns up nothing.
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
Regardless of what you intended when you asked, I think he was answering
the question, "Would you prefer tea or coffee?" and his answer indicated
that he would be content with whichever was easier for you to prepare.
Yes, that's what I worked out in the end, but when he first said it,
it sounded very offensive to me. In my dialect, if that was what we
meant, we would have said "I don't mind".
--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
Peter Moylan
2020-01-28 06:16:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
If I'd received that response, I would have interpreted it as meaning
"neither". Now that I've read this thread, I see that the situation is
more complicated than that. I'll have to remember to ask for
clarification in such ambiguous cases.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2020-02-14 04:33:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
I just heard the following dialog in a US TV series:

- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.

So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and "don't mind".
--
... English-speaking people have managed to get along a good many
centuries with the present supply of pronouns; ... It is so old and
venerable an argument ... it's equivalent was used when gas, railways
and steamboats were proposed. -- Findlay (OH) Jeffersonian (1875)
Anton Shepelev
2020-02-14 11:38:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.
So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and
"don't mind".
How many arms have held you
And hated to let you go
How many, how many I wonder
But I really don't want to know

"not to mind" is not to object, and "not to care" is
to be indifferent.
--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-14 13:52:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Steve Hayes
I've noticed that in at least some US dialects "care" is used in ways
that sound to English speakers from other countries.
I think the translation in other Englishes would often be "mind".
I once asked an American visitor "Would you like tea or coffee?"
He replied "I don't care."
And that struck me at first as extremely rude and offensive. But if
you translate it to "I don't mind", it isn't.
- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.
A good line, that. (Whence?)
Post by Quinn C
So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and "don't mind".
The point having been all along that AmE and BrE distinguish them
_in different ways_.
Quinn C
2020-02-14 20:02:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.
A good line, that. (Whence?)
Angel.

I didn't watch it before because I didn't like the titular character on
Buffy (I agree with the characterization I've heard as "a dramatic
bore"), but it turns out his role on "Angel" is significantly different
(as well as the tone of the whole series.)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and "don't mind".
The point having been all along that AmE and BrE distinguish them
_in different ways_.
Not that I got how. When it came to specific examples, most people
agreed transpondially.
--
Sure, everybody has the right to speak their opinion; but not
the right to identify this opinion as truth, and erect pyres
for dissenters.
-- Hedwig Dohm (1903), my translation
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-14 21:47:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.
A good line, that. (Whence?)
Angel.
I didn't watch it before because I didn't like the titular character on
Buffy (I agree with the characterization I've heard as "a dramatic
bore"), but it turns out his role on "Angel" is significantly different
(as well as the tone of the whole series.)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and "don't mind".
The point having been all along that AmE and BrE distinguish them
_in different ways_.
Not that I got how. When it came to specific examples, most people
agreed transpondially.
Would you like tea or coffee?

AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)

BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.

You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.

AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)

BrE: ?
Quinn C
2020-02-14 23:46:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
- You could die here. Chances are, you will.
- Yeah.
- And you don't care?
- I care. I guess I just don't mind.
A good line, that. (Whence?)
Angel.
I didn't watch it before because I didn't like the titular character on
Buffy (I agree with the characterization I've heard as "a dramatic
bore"), but it turns out his role on "Angel" is significantly different
(as well as the tone of the whole series.)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
So some Americans sure distinguish "don't care" and "don't mind".
The point having been all along that AmE and BrE distinguish them
_in different ways_.
Not that I got how. When it came to specific examples, most people
agreed transpondially.
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
That was Steve H's example, but not all Americans agreed that it's
acceptable, so that was inconclusive to me.
Post by Steve Hayes
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
RH Draney
2020-02-15 07:36:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.
AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)
BrE: ?
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?

"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."

....r
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-15 15:35:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Steve Hayes
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.
AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)
BrE: ?
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
....r
....which suggests it isn't functioning too well ...
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-15 20:36:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
....r
.....which suggests it isn't functioning too well ...
The sewage might refuse treatment.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2020-02-16 00:22:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 13:56:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
I recognize the pun, but is there someplace where "motion" is used to
refer to "bowel _movement_"?
Janet
2020-02-16 15:25:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
I recognize the pun, but is there someplace where "motion" is used to
refer to "bowel _movement_"?
Yes

Janet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-16 18:24:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
I recognize the pun, but is there someplace where "motion" is used to
refer to "bowel _movement_"?
Yes
Janet
https://www.lexico.com/definition/motion

motion
noun

3 British An evacuation of the bowels.

It has two meanings, the process of evacuation,

‘73% of the patients had fewer than three bowel motions a day’
‘Traditionally patients would stay in hospital after surgery until
their first postoperative bowel motion.’

and the material that is evacuated.

‘her mother put on her nappy for her to pass a motion’
‘It's not serious unless there are other symptoms such as stomach
pain or a change in the colour of your bowel motions, in which case
it might be related to gall-bladder problems.’
‘Haemorrhoids are the most common cause of bleeding from the anus;
the bleeding usually occurs after passing a bowel motion and will
appear on the toilet paper.’
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 18:36:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
I recognize the pun, but is there someplace where "motion" is used to
refer to "bowel _movement_"?
Yes
Janet
https://www.lexico.com/definition/motion
motion
noun
3 British An evacuation of the bowels.
It has two meanings, the process of evacuation,
‘73% of the patients had fewer than three bowel motions a day’
‘Traditionally patients would stay in hospital after surgery until
their first postoperative bowel motion.’
and the material that is evacuated.
‘her mother put on her nappy for her to pass a motion’
A rather risky employment of nappies, no? Only doing so when the
passing appears to be imminent?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
‘It's not serious unless there are other symptoms such as stomach
pain or a change in the colour of your bowel motions, in which case
it might be related to gall-bladder problems.’
‘Haemorrhoids are the most common cause of bleeding from the anus;
the bleeding usually occurs after passing a bowel motion and will
appear on the toilet paper.’
That would likely not be understood at all Over Here if it weren't
attached to "bowel."

Howcome entire legislatures and committees don't collapse into giggles
every time it is suggested that they pass a motion?
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-16 18:32:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
That (re)minds me of the sewage treatment worker who fell into the pond.
He couldn't swim, but he went through the motions.
I recognize the pun, but is there someplace where "motion" is used to
refer to "bowel _movement_"?
Yes
What place would that be?
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-16 16:45:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Steve Hayes
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.
AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)
BrE: ?
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
Nobody has chimed in, but this is a take-off on the old dieter's
motto:

"The waist is a terrible thing to mind."
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 16:55:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Steve Hayes
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.
AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)
BrE: ?
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
Nobody has chimed in, but this is a take-off on the old dieter's
"The waist is a terrible thing to mind."
I've been patiently waiting for someone to post that.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2020-02-17 18:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by RH Draney
Post by Steve Hayes
Would you like tea or coffee?
AmE: I don't care (I'd be happy with either). Apparently considered
rude in BrE.)
BrE: I don't mind (??). No interpretation in AmE.
You have to stay late to finish up today's rush job.
AmE: I don't mind (Don't have anything else to do, and it's enjoyable.)
BrE: ?
Are you familiar with the motto of the security guards at the sewage
treatment plant?
"Waste is a terrible thing to mind."
Nobody has chimed in, but this is a take-off on the old dieter's
"The waist is a terrible thing to mind."
I've been patiently waiting for someone to post that.
Just to be sure - they're all playing on "A mind is a terrible thing to
waste", right? Sorry for the interruption from a non-native.

Do childminders say "A waif is a terrible thing to mind"?
--
I don't see people ... as having a right to be idiots. It's
just impractical to try to stop them, unless they're hurting
somebody. -- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen
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