Discussion:
sheltering in the open air
(too old to reply)
micky
2018-07-07 02:32:51 UTC
Permalink
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.

The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."

Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air. (I also hate the term "shelter in place",
perhaps because I knew it would lead to this.)

She also talked about a woman who was having a baby on a blanket in the
field, a couple miles from a hospital that she could not go to because
it was on the other side of the border.

She said "she eventually gave birth safely". No, she didn't. She was
on a blanket in a field. That things came out all right does not make
it either safe or retroactively safe. She should have said,
succesfully, or without complications, or that both were alive.
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
John Ritson
2018-07-07 09:33:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by micky
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
Post by micky
(I also hate the term "shelter in place",
perhaps because I knew it would lead to this.)
She also talked about a woman who was having a baby on a blanket in the
field, a couple miles from a hospital that she could not go to because
it was on the other side of the border.
She said "she eventually gave birth safely". No, she didn't. She was
on a blanket in a field. That things came out all right does not make
it either safe or retroactively safe. She should have said,
succesfully, or without complications, or that both were alive.
The best definition of safety is the result, not the procedure. If a
baby being born in a shiny high-tech hospital dies, would you call the
birth 'safe'?
"The operation was a complete success, but the patient died."
--
John Ritson

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Stefan Ram
2018-07-07 11:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ritson
The best definition of safety is the result, not the procedure.
Yes, but it has to be the /average/ result.

/On the average/ the result of a birth on a blanket
in a field is worse than in a modern hospital.
micky
2018-07-07 20:47:04 UTC
Permalink
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:33:36 +0100, John Ritson
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
Hmmm. She didnt' say anthing about wind or anything else related to
shelter. Her point seemed to be that they had no shelter.
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
(I also hate the term "shelter in place",
perhaps because I knew it would lead to this.)
She also talked about a woman who was having a baby on a blanket in the
field, a couple miles from a hospital that she could not go to because
it was on the other side of the border.
She said "she eventually gave birth safely". No, she didn't. She was
on a blanket in a field. That things came out all right does not make
it either safe or retroactively safe. She should have said,
succesfully, or without complications, or that both were alive.
The best definition of safety is the result, not the procedure. If a
No it's not. (and the word at issue was "safely".)

If someone is drunk, driving 80MPH on a 2-lane road, passing on curves,
going into the lanes of oncoming traffic, swerving back at the last
second to avoid hitting someone, weaving between lanes with 4 inches
between his bumper and the other car's, but he doesn't hit anyone, would
you say he drove safely? Would you call the driving "safe"?
Post by John Ritson
baby being born in a shiny high-tech hospital dies, would you call the
birth 'safe'?
It would be tactless but yes. Safeness is no guarantee.

If someone considered healthy is sitting in a comfortable easy chair
with his legs on an ottoman and he has a stroke and dies, was he safe?
Post by John Ritson
"The operation was a complete success, but the patient died."
That's a third thing.
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
John Ritson
2018-07-08 14:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:33:36 +0100, John Ritson
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
Hmmm. She didnt' say anthing about wind or anything else related to
shelter. Her point seemed to be that they had no shelter.
It was an area where they considered themselves relatively sheltered
from fighting.
Post by micky
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
(I also hate the term "shelter in place",
perhaps because I knew it would lead to this.)
She also talked about a woman who was having a baby on a blanket in the
field, a couple miles from a hospital that she could not go to because
it was on the other side of the border.
She said "she eventually gave birth safely". No, she didn't. She was
on a blanket in a field. That things came out all right does not make
it either safe or retroactively safe. She should have said,
succesfully, or without complications, or that both were alive.
The best definition of safety is the result, not the procedure. If a
No it's not. (and the word at issue was "safely".)
If someone is drunk, driving 80MPH on a 2-lane road, passing on curves,
going into the lanes of oncoming traffic, swerving back at the last
second to avoid hitting someone, weaving between lanes with 4 inches
between his bumper and the other car's, but he doesn't hit anyone, would
you say he drove safely? Would you call the driving "safe"?
Post by John Ritson
baby being born in a shiny high-tech hospital dies, would you call the
birth 'safe'?
It would be tactless but yes. Safeness is no guarantee.
If someone considered healthy is sitting in a comfortable easy chair
with his legs on an ottoman and he has a stroke and dies, was he safe?
Post by John Ritson
"The operation was a complete success, but the patient died."
That's a third thing.
--
John Ritson

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-10 00:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:33:36 +0100, John Ritson
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
Hmmm. She didnt' say anthing about wind or anything else related to
shelter. Her point seemed to be that they had no shelter.
It was an area where they considered themselves relatively sheltered
from fighting.
...

That's not the impression I got.

RACHEL SIDER: This is the largest displacement - single displacement
that we've seen since the start of the war. They've been on the move
now for several days. And they're reaching places that are experiencing
serious shortages of fuel, flour, even clean water. They're hungry.
They're thirsty. Many of them have been sheltering in the open air for
prolonged periods of time. Many of them have brought their children
but little more than a pack of food and some basic items to get them
through the next couple of days. And they're very scared.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/06/626664253/refugees-flee-as-syria-targets-rebel-stronghold-daraa
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2018-07-07 22:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
I used to drive past a lot down on Van Buren (Phoenix's approximation of
"Skid Row") with a sign proclaiming "Covert Car Company"...they seem to
have either gone out of business or changed their name, but a group of
auto dealerships in central Texas has a similar name....

I never did find out what they were trying to hide....r
micky
2018-07-07 22:56:53 UTC
Permalink
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:46:23 -0700, RH Draney
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
I used to drive past a lot down on Van Buren (Phoenix's approximation of
"Skid Row") with a sign proclaiming "Covert Car Company"...they seem to
have either gone out of business or changed their name,
They're still there in Phoenix. They just figured out how to be covert.
Post by RH Draney
but a group of
auto dealerships in central Texas has a similar name....
I never did find out what they were trying to hide....r
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
J. J. Lodder
2018-07-08 08:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Ritson
Post by micky
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air.
'Shelter' depends on what you are sheltering from. You can shelter from
a cold wind by moving behind the crest of a hill, while remaining in the
open air.
I used to drive past a lot down on Van Buren (Phoenix's approximation of
"Skid Row") with a sign proclaiming "Covert Car Company"...they seem to
have either gone out of business or changed their name, but a group of
auto dealerships in central Texas has a similar name....
I never did find out what they were trying to hide....r
Their royal connections?

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2018-07-08 12:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by micky
On the news today, sad story about a new wave of refugees from the
government-led fighting in Syria, at the Jordan border and maybe the
Israel border, but can't get past either. So while they're suffering
I'm making trivial wisecracks about the use of English. I want you to
know that I at least appreciate that.
The interview quotes someone as saying " Many of them have been
sheltering in the open air."
Of course the open air is the opposite of shelter. And shelter is the
opposite of open air. (I also hate the term "shelter in place",
perhaps because I knew it would lead to this.)
I agree. It should be "Many have them have no shelter" or "...have been
living in the open air." Unless maybe they've been digging trenches or
something.
Post by micky
She also talked about a woman who was having a baby on a blanket in the
field, a couple miles from a hospital that she could not go to because
it was on the other side of the border.
She said "she eventually gave birth safely". No, she didn't. She was
on a blanket in a field. That things came out all right does not make
it either safe or retroactively safe. She should have said,
succesfully, or without complications, or that both were alive.
But I don't agree there. "Safe" can mean unharmed as well as free from
danger. "Have a safe trip" means "I hope you don't get hurt", not "I
hope there's never any risk." Likewise "Let's just hope they come back
safe."
--
Jerry Friedman
Stefan Ram
2018-07-08 12:46:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree. It should be "Many have them have no shelter" or "...have been
living in the open air." Unless maybe they've been digging trenches or
something.
»Sheltering in the open air« - possibly it was inspired by
»Hiding in plain sight«?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-07-08 16:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
I agree. It should be "Many have them have no shelter" or "...have been
living in the open air." Unless maybe they've been digging trenches or
something.
»Sheltering in the open air« - possibly it was inspired by
»Hiding in plain sight«?
As I understand it they were sheltering from the fighting, not
sheltering from the weather.

They sheltered from the fighting by being in a location away from the
fighting. They were "sheltered" by distance rather than by a physical
barrier.

I agree "shelter" is a potentially misleading word to use in this
context.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
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