Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of

[tonbei]

I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.

There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)

context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.

Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

Or "chairs" just omitted when it could say also: "clients for the pampering of which chairs" ?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...

Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index or catalog
or inventory list, with the most important information first even if that isn't natural
in English. I suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of."
The format in a real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."

I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the British military, but
I'm not sure about that at all.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the
desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought
vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index
or catalog or inventory list, with the most important information
first even if that isn't natural in English. I suspect it should be
"Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of." The format in a
real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

My parents mentioned "Boots, troops for the use of" as a memory of their
time in the Australian army.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the
desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought
vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the
pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index
or catalog or inventory list, with the most important information
first even if that isn't natural in English. I suspect it should be
"Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of." The format in a
real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

My parents mentioned "Boots, troops for the use of" as a memory of their
time in the Australian army.

You had more than one parent in the army! Not that common in your
generation, is it?

[lar3ryca]

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index or catalog
or inventory list, with the most important information first even if that isn't natural
in English. I suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of."
The format in a real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the British military, but
I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".

My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.

It was in the catalogue as:
"Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 5:37:37 PM UTC-7, tonbei

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form
category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find
paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside that find the
"striped paint" section.

P.S. It's customary to snip off people's signatures when quoting them.
If your newsreader doesn't do that automatically, you need to do it
manually.

[charles]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the
desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought
vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the
pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index
or catalog or inventory list, with the most important information
first even if that isn't natural in English. I suspect it should be
"Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of." The format in a
real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more levels if needed.
Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in the catalogue, he can
easily find it provided that the store is arranged with the same
hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside that find the
"striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

[Hibou]

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more levels if needed.
Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in the catalogue, he can
easily find it provided that the store is arranged with the same
hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside that find the
"striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Hibou

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more levels if needed.
Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in the catalogue, he can
easily find it provided that the store is arranged with the same
hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside that find the
"striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These
descriptions have the form category, subcategory,
subsubcategory with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman
is asked to find something in the catalogue, he can easily
find it provided that the store is arranged with the same
hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find paint, striped,
red and blue then he can go directly to the "paint" section,
and inside that find the "striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted
paint?

They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire. You can have them, but
you have to count them all,

In the course of my genealogical researches I discovered that I'm
distantly related to a priest in Blackburn, Lancashire. It feels like a
little bit of reflected fame.

[d***@chello.nl]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2021 11:39:14 +0100, in alt.usage.english ***@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
wrote:

[...]

[Quite OT, for your amusement, and just curious]

Some time ago I noticed a news item
about a senior sergeant Craig Dinnnissen of the New Zealand police
who was called in to rescue a woman held hostage by a possum.
<https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dunedin-woman-calls-police-after-being-held-hostage-by-possum/JAGUPLLZP7WS4NNS52YYQHNWSA/>
Do you know whether Dinnnissen is an originally English
or an originally Dutch family name?

My father traced the family name back to Geurd Dinnissen (1670-1747) who lived in the small town of
Ottersum, about 20 km south of Nijmegen in The Netherlands. I know of family members who emigrated
to Canada but the appearance of a Dinnissen in NZ is a surprise to me. I must tell my father.

BTW, No officers or possums were harmed to tell the story,
Jan

So I read,

[Madhu]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".


I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.

[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

(A flashback to graphics handling on the BBC Model B)

[lar3ryca]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Post by Sam Plusnet
(A flashback to graphics handling on the BBC Model B)
--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Aluminium? Not lead?

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Aluminium? Not lead?

I think he meant "soffit". That's visible and usually aluminium. It's
often painted. Soffit is covering of the underside of the eaves and
the horizontal covering just below the roof edge.

"Flashing", can be aluminium, lead, or steel, but it wouldn't be
painted. It is covered by shingles or is around the base of a chimny
and is the barrier to stop water entry. You might see the edge of
flashing at the roofline, though.

Lead is best because it is soft and can be beaten to conform tightly
to the surface it covers.

[lar3ryca]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Aluminium? Not lead?

I think he meant "soffit". That's visible and usually aluminium. It's
often painted. Soffit is covering of the underside of the eaves and
the horizontal covering just below the roof edge.

Not soffit. The only soffit I ever used was pre-painted, or perhaps
powder-coated.

"Flashing", can be aluminium, lead, or steel, but it wouldn't be
painted. It is covered by shingles or is around the base of a chimny
and is the barrier to stop water entry. You might see the edge of
flashing at the roofline, though.

That's the stuff.

Lead is best because it is soft and can be beaten to conform tightly
to the surface it covers.

I did not know that existed.

--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was
something along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Aluminium? Not lead?

I think he meant "soffit". That's visible and usually aluminium. It's
often painted. Soffit is covering of the underside of the eaves and
the horizontal covering just below the roof edge.

Not soffit. The only soffit I ever used was pre-painted, or perhaps
powder-coated.

"Flashing", can be aluminium, lead, or steel, but it wouldn't be
painted. It is covered by shingles or is around the base of a chimny
and is the barrier to stop water entry. You might see the edge of
flashing at the roofline, though.

That's the stuff.

Lead is best because it is soft and can be beaten to conform tightly
to the surface it covers.

I did not know that existed.

The lead flowed down the gutters when Notre Dame burned.
The spire was wood covered in lead.

They had to do a major clean up in a wide range around,

Jan

[lar3ryca]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Madhu

On Thu, 30 Dec 2021 20:45:03 +0100, in alt.usage.english (J. J. Lodder)

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Hibou
They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I started getting whooshed at this point. I thought it was something
along the lines of "Cupid Stunt"

Post by J. J. Lodder
They are known to be in Blackburn, Lancashire.
You can have them, but you have to count them all,

I tried to, but looking up, I noticed I was late.

They must have filled the Albert Hall, in the meantime.

"Blackburn is mentioned in The Beatles' song "A Day in the Life".
I read the news today, oh boy/4,000 holes in Blackburn,
Lancashire/And though the holes were rather small/They had to
count them all/Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the
Albert Hall.
[Ah ok. but how did it get here from spotted paint]

because theywere stoerd next to spotted paint

I never did find out where the flashing paint was stored.

I never paint my flashing. The natural aluminum is fine.

Aluminium? Not lead?

Yes. I have only used aluminum flashing. I had no idea it might be
available in lead.

--
Sam Plusnet

[CDB]

Post by Hibou

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These
descriptions have

the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided
that the store is arranged with the same hierarchy. For
example, if he needs to find paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside
that find the "striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted
paint?

They're across the aisle from the packs of assorted holes.

You'd need to go to holes, assorted, for those.

I dread to think what other sub-category of holes there are, aside
from 'assorted'. 'round', 'black', 'cake' and 'arse' come to mind.

Committee of the.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions
have the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in
the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the store is
arranged with the same hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find
paint, striped, red and blue then he can go directly to the
"paint" section, and inside that find the "striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

When I hear about tricks played on new apprentices, they are almost
always sent to the store for striped paint, skyhooks, and a short
length [1]. Spotted paint seems to be less popular.

[1] I might be wrong about that third one. It was something like that.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions
have the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in
the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the store is
arranged with the same hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find
paint, striped, red and blue then he can go directly to the
"paint" section, and inside that find the "striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

When I hear about tricks played on new apprentices, they are almost
always sent to the store for striped paint, skyhooks, and a short
length [1]. Spotted paint seems to be less popular.
[1] I might be wrong about that third one. It was something like that.

I remember someone who was sent to the store to buy elbow grease.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Moylan
When I hear about tricks played on new apprentices, they are
almost always sent to the store for striped paint, skyhooks, and a
short length [1]. Spotted paint seems to be less popular.
[1] I might be wrong about that third one. It was something like that.

Up here it was "a long stand".

Thanks. That makes more sense, so is probably the one I was trying to
remember.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions
have the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in
the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the store is
arranged with the same hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find
paint, striped, red and blue then he can go directly to the
"paint" section, and inside that find the "striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

When I hear about tricks played on new apprentices, they are almost
always sent to the store for striped paint, skyhooks, and a short
length [1]. Spotted paint seems to be less popular.

When I was in 'Basic Training' in the RCAF, we had a fellow in our
group (Bill) who was the most gullible person I have ever met. One
evening, he noticed a guy (Danny) looking over a bunch of papers.
Danny's parents had given him their house, and he had to do a lot of
paperwork.
Bill asked, "Whatcha doin' Danny?"
Danny said it was his 'masturbation papers'.

That reminds me one of my wife's nieces years ago. Her mother was dying
of cancer, and she said she thought the cancer was "metabolizing." She
meant "metastasizing" of course.

[Lewis]

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me one of my wife's nieces years ago.

Isn't your wife's niece your niece?

My wife's sister-in-law and my sister-in-law are different people, but I
don't think that extends to either of their hypothetical children.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me one of my wife's nieces years ago.

Isn't your wife's niece your niece?

No, not according to me, although I'll grant you that many people
informally use the word "niece" that way. Even I sometimes do, even
though I didn't here.

Post by Lewis
My wife's sister-in-law and my sister-in-law are different people, but I
don't think that extends to either of their hypothetical children.

My wife's sister never had any hypothetical children.

[Lewis]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me one of my wife's nieces years ago.

Isn't your wife's niece your niece?

No, not according to me, although I'll grant you that many people
informally use the word "niece" that way. Even I sometimes do, even
though I didn't here.

My aunts and uncles include my mother's siblings and their spouses. I've
never distinguished my uncle who is my mother's brother from the uncles
who are my mother's brothers-in-law.

Is it common to only count so-called 'blood' relatives as uncles/aunts
or neiphews?

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake
That reminds me one of my wife's nieces years ago.

Isn't your wife's niece your niece?

No, not according to me, although I'll grant you that many people
informally use the word "niece" that way. Even I sometimes do, even
though I didn't here.

I'm with you on this. My wife has several nieces. None of them are
my niece.

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
My wife's sister-in-law and my sister-in-law are different people, but I
don't think that extends to either of their hypothetical children.

My wife's sister never had any hypothetical children.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the
desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought
vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the
pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index
or catalog or inventory list, with the most important information
first even if that isn't natural in English. I suspect it should be
"Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of." The format in a
real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more levels if needed.
Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in the catalogue, he can
easily find it provided that the store is arranged with the same
hierarchy. For example, if he needs to find paint, striped, red and blue
then he can go directly to the "paint" section, and inside that find the
"striped paint" section.

Presumably, the striped paint is stored next to the spotted paint?

That's were they spare ingition sparks and the square drills are stored?
What else do the English store there?
The Dutch also have the paper magnet,
for retrieving lost documents from behind the room heater,
and the plinth ladder, for climbing plinths,

Not yet mentioned seems to be the left-handed monkey wrench.

We've been there before. Here is one,
<Loading Image...>

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...

Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

Very old fashioned - It would be storeperson nowadays but, he was the man
behind the counter in the stores

If it's still current in Australia, it's another example of the periphery being
dialectally more conservative than the center.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

Very old fashioned - It would be storeperson nowadays but, he was the man
behind the counter in the stores

A true storeman must always wear a brown dust jacket. Beware imposters.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Jerry Friedman
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

Very old fashioned - It would be storeperson nowadays but, he was the man
behind the counter in the stores

A true storeman must always wear a brown dust jacket. Beware imposters.

In Usenet, it's beware posters.

But to the point - if by brown dust jacket you mean a shortie thing,
blazer-length, I don't share that vision. My storeman wears a brown
cotton lab coat, by which I mean knee-length tailoring just the same as
the white cotton of a laboratory chemist, or perhaps a hospital doctor,
though I'm fortunate not to be a hospital habitué so can only rely on
Emergency - Ward 10 and Dr Kildare for what I know of hospital dress
codes (I do like those pert head-dresses the nurses wear).

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

[lar3ryca]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

For me, it was the guy that tended the 'stores', which was the place to
get all manner of things that were required to do the job. My job
happened to be 'Radar Tech (Air)', and the 'stores' I was interested in
was for electronic trades.

The guy in charge was a sergeant, and the guy who did the most work
fulfilling orders was a corporal. Needless to say, they wore uniforms
and not a 'brown dust jacket'. Ours were dark blue.

My favourite memory was when I stumped him, but only for a while.

We quite often would try to get him to fulfill an order by telling him
what it was, rather than giving him a part number. He could usually do
it.

One day I found an aluminum Phillips-head screw that had not been
stamped with the threads. We went through a lot of them, as there were
something like 15 screws holding a cover on a TACAN unit, and the heads
stripped out often.

I stuck it in a drawer, and when we ran low on the screws, I pulled it
out, went to the stores, and asked him for "Phillips-head rivets". He
thought for a moment, and declared that there was no such thing.

I pulled the threadless screw out of my pocket and showed it to him. He
actually looked puzzled for almost 30 seconds.

Post by Lewis
--
From deep inside the tears that I'm forced to cry From deep inside
the pain I--I chose to hide

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

The place within a company where a large quantity of materials and
components were kept was called "The Stores".
The storeman was the guardian of the stores. He supplied parts and
materials to order - when given the appropriate paperwork - and he
updated the stock records and re-ordered when stocks ran low.
It was vital to remain on good terms with the Storeman.

[f sheff]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

The place within a company where a large quantity of materials and
components were kept was called "The Stores".
The storeman was the guardian of the stores. He supplied parts and
materials to order - when given the appropriate paperwork - and he
updated the stock records and re-ordered when stocks ran low.
It was vital to remain on good terms with the Storeman.
--
Sam Plusnet

During my quasi- and active-military experiences, both the Navy and Air Force maintained very important supply sources called "Small Stores". The materials they offered were seldom large or complex, but unquestionably necessary to maintain essential function in the services.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by f sheff

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

The place within a company where a large quantity of materials and
components were kept was called "The Stores".
The storeman was the guardian of the stores. He supplied parts and
materials to order - when given the appropriate paperwork - and he
updated the stock records and re-ordered when stocks ran low.
It was vital to remain on good terms with the Storeman.
--
Sam Plusnet

During my quasi- and active-military experiences, both the Navy and Air Force maintained very important supply sources called "Small Stores". The materials they offered were seldom large or complex, but unquestionably necessary to maintain essential function in the services.

Well quite. "Small Stores" would be where you kept your smalls - when
not wearing them.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by f sheff

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions have the
form category, subcategory, subsubcategory
with more levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find
something in the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the
store is arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

I don't think I have either, and I am not sure what it means. Is it one
that stores things (storage) or one that owns a retail store or one that
works in a retail store?

The place within a company where a large quantity of materials and
components were kept was called "The Stores".
The storeman was the guardian of the stores. He supplied parts and
materials to order - when given the appropriate paperwork - and he
updated the stock records and re-ordered when stocks ran low.
It was vital to remain on good terms with the Storeman.
--
Sam Plusnet

During my quasi- and active-military experiences, both the Navy and Air Force maintained very important supply sources called "Small Stores". The materials they offered were seldom large or complex, but unquestionably necessary to maintain essential function in the services.

Well quite. "Small Stores" would be where you kept your smalls - when
not wearing them.

I hope the laundry would be in the pipeline too.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions
have the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in
the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the store is
arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

The job only exists in organisations so large that it makes sense to
employ someone whose only job is to look after the company store. I'm
not talking about a retail store here, but rather the place where all
the spare tools are kept, all the nuts and bolts, and so on. Exactly
what gets stored there depends on the nature of the business.

I have no idea whether there are now female storepeople.

In my university department we had a store that had a great many
resistors, capacitors,, transistors, plugs, cables, integrated circuits,
and so on. There wasn't one single person in charge of it. All of the
lab technicians had access to it, and sometimes the academics too. I
suppose the lab manager had designated someone to keep an eye on when
restocking was needed, but I never asked who it was.

One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was wattmeters.
Students were good at blowing them up.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan
Think of it as a hierarchical filing system. These descriptions
have the form category, subcategory, subsubcategory with more
levels if needed. Now, if a storeman is asked to find something in
the catalogue, he can easily find it provided that the store is
arranged with the same hierarchy.

...
Just mentioning that I don't think I'd seen "storeman" before.

The job only exists in organisations so large that it makes sense to
employ someone whose only job is to look after the company store. I'm
not talking about a retail store here, but rather the place where all
the spare tools are kept, all the nuts and bolts, and so on. Exactly
what gets stored there depends on the nature of the business.
I have no idea whether there are now female storepeople.
In my university department we had a store that had a great many
resistors, capacitors,, transistors, plugs, cables, integrated circuits,
and so on. There wasn't one single person in charge of it. All of the
lab technicians had access to it, and sometimes the academics too. I
suppose the lab manager had designated someone to keep an eye on when
restocking was needed, but I never asked who it was.
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was wattmeters.
Students were good at blowing them up.

One thing any large stores needed was the equivalent to a Library's
Dewey Decimal system.

At one company, the entry for any single item or component needed to
contain:
1. The manufacturer or supplier's part reference.
2. Details of any national or internation specification to which the
component conformed.
3. The Company's own part number.
4. When used on a project for the MOD, their project number for that part.
5. The Nato Stock Number for that part.

There were probably no more than 40,000 items in that 'database'.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.

I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of protection for
the case where you connect the voltage to the current terminals.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.

Well, there's that.

I have an experiment where there's a resistor in water in a calorimeter,
and they compare the power in the circuit (measured at 30-second
intervals) to the temperature increase. I'm now thinking that they could
do that with an AC circuit and measure the power factor. If I knew what
I was doing with AC. Maybe there's something on line.

Post by Peter Moylan
I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of protection for
the case where you connect the voltage to the current terminals.

Yes, I keep a supply of fuses for the current side of the multimeters.

[Peter Moylan]

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 3:39:58 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.

Well, there's that.
I have an experiment where there's a resistor in water in a
calorimeter, and they compare the power in the circuit (measured at
30-second intervals) to the temperature increase. I'm now thinking
that they could do that with an AC circuit and measure the power
factor. If I knew what I was doing with AC. Maybe there's
something on line.

Good idea. You can use the same resistor and the same calorimeter,
multiply the voltage and current to get the apparent power, and compare
that with the DC result to deduce the power factor. For a fair
comparison of the ac and dc results, you have to measure RMS values of
voltage and current, but that's exactly what most AC instruments measure.

Oh, wait. If you're using only a resistor, the power factor will be 1.
Still, you could have the experiment verify that RMS values are the
correct values to use to calculate the power.

To get a non-unity power factor, put a capacitor in parallel with the
resistor. That will have no effect on the DC measurements. If you chose
the capacitance C such that 1/(omega x C) is approximately equal to the
resistance, that will make the power factor noticeably below 1.

To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply. Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way
that the students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

[Peter Moylan]

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.

Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.

Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.

He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.

When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.

He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.

Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

Post by Peter Moylan
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[lar3ryca]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.

oops.. make that a 28V post. It's been a while.

Post by lar3ryca
When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.
He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.
Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

Post by Peter Moylan
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by lar3ryca
A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.

oops.. make that a 28V post. It's been a while.

Does it make an essential difference?

[[e-mail]]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.
When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.
He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.
Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off by a
jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.) Then I discovered that if I got it resized
to fit over the knuckle it would rattle around on my finger above the knuckle,
and if it was fitted snugly to the finger, it wouldn't fit over the knuckle.
I now wear it around my neck on a nice little gold chain. My wife doesn't mind
if I wear it or not, but I prefer to have the "married" symbol somewhere on my
person.

bill

[Ken Blake]

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.
When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.
He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.
Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be seen
by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.
When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.
He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.
Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

The thread or dental floss thing, probably.

[musika]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by ***@shaw.ca
I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

[Ken Blake]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by ***@shaw.ca
I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

http://youtu.be/DrDROoJAF4I

Thanks very much. Looks terrific. I had never seen or heard of it
before, but I'll keep it in mind.

[Adam Funk]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by ***@shaw.ca
I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

http://youtu.be/DrDROoJAF4I

Interesting!

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to
a 415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people
wearing ties from the machines lab.

A fellow Radar Tech was removing the TACAN switch on a CF104. It was
situated in the electronic bay, aft of the rack, and could not be
seen by the person removing it, so it had to be done by feel.
He reached down into the bay, and his wedding ring got between ground
and a 24V post. The ring ended up with a sizable chunk missing, and he
was lucky the medics were able save his finger.
When he was able to get back to work, he told us that he had forgotten
to put it back on his finger a couple of times, and his wife tore a
strip out of him. So occasionally he forgot to take it off at work,
and this time, he paid the price.
He also said that he went back home that night, pulled the ruined
ring out of his pocket, threw it at his wife, held up his bandaged hand,
and told her that he was never going to wear a wedding ring again, and
that if she didn't trust him, she could go to hell.
Apparently, she never mentioned it again.

I stopped wearing my wedding ring after my ring-finger knuckle got too
swollen with arthritis to get the ring on and off; I had to get it cut off
by a jeweller. (The ring, not the finger.)

(to late of course)
There is the good old thread trick for that,

What is the trick? I have a similar problem.

You wind strong thread around your finger, closely spaced,
from above the knuckle down, until you come to the ring.
(thereby compressing it)
Next feed the thread under the ring,
using a curved needle, if necessary.
Next unwind. use water or oil to help, again if necessary.
The ring will move, one threadwidth at a time.
It wil hurt. Go on as long as you can stand it,
or until the ring is off,

Jan

[charles]

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

[Ken Blake]

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

[charles]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to
contacting the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people
wearing ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:37:33 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to
contacting the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people
wearing ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

"Some studies have found that neckties and other things dangling from
the neck, like badges, can in fact be vectors for bacteria and even
infection. Bow ties appear to be more hygienic, though movements are
underway to get rid of neckwear altogether in medicine."

https://whyy.org/articles/the-physicians-bow-tie-fashion-statement-or-practical-measure/

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 03 Jan 2022 16:37:33 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare
wire, carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck
pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to
contacting the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people
wearing ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

"Some studies have found that neckties and other things dangling from
the neck, like badges, can in fact be vectors for bacteria and even
infection. Bow ties appear to be more hygienic, though movements are
underway to get rid of neckwear altogether in medicine."

That sounds like a good movement to me. I would hate to take a medicine
with neckwear in it.

Timothy Evans, Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis had a taste of medicine
with neckwear.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely. No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

[Janet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely.

Over here, all staff in Operating Rooms ( we call them theatres) wear
sterile scrubs provided and laundered by the hospital. Street clothes
and shoes are banned in theatre.

Doctors working in clinical areas sometimes wear street clothes, but
NHS regulations require short sleeves, bare below the elbow, no
wristwatch, and no loose ties. Bowties are permitted but I've not seen a
Scottish DR in a bowtie for decades.

Janet

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely.

Over here, all staff in Operating Rooms ( we call them theatres) wear
sterile scrubs provided and laundered by the hospital. Street clothes
and shoes are banned in theatre.

I have been an observer in Operating Rooms in many hospitals in the
US, and have always been required to wear scrubs when doing so.
Whether or not I also had to wear a sterile gown depends on how close
I am to the procedure. Circulating nurses* and observers who stand at
a distance are not required to gown.

I have never seen sterile scrubs provided. They are clean, and washed
by Central Supply (or whatever the hospital term is for that
function), but not sterilized. The sterile barrier is the gown that
is worn over the scrubs.

Street shoes are worn by surgeons in surgery, but they are covered by
cloth or paper shoe covers. Surgeons often have shoes in their locker
that are "street shoes" but they wear them only when in surgery. Some
footwear is always worn, but some surgeons wear Crocs or clogs or some
other item that might not be called a shoe.

I have never been in an OR in the UK, but I doubt the practice is any
different there. The reason is that the scrubs are put on in the room
where the surgeon changes from street clothes to scrubs, and sterile
scrubs would be contaminated because the surgeon has not yet scrubbed
when he/she handles the garment when changing. They don't scrub and
then change.

*Usually there are one or more circulating nurses assigned to an
Operating Room. A circulating nurse wear scrubs but not a gown. He
or she can leave and return to the OR without rescrubbing. The
circulating nurse can be sent for additional instruments or items.
Some circulating nurses go from one OR to another as needed. He/she
is not gowned because leaving and re-entering would be delayed until
the re-gowning.

This video

shows OR personnel in scrubs ("greens" and "greens" that are blue)
donning the gowns over the scrubs.

The sharp-eyed watcher of that video will notice that this is a
training video of veterinarians, not MDs, but the techniques are the
same.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely.

Over here, all staff in Operating Rooms ( we call them theatres) wear
sterile scrubs provided and laundered by the hospital. Street clothes
and shoes are banned in theatre.
Doctors working in clinical areas sometimes wear street clothes, but
NHS regulations require short sleeves, bare below the elbow, no
wristwatch, and no loose ties. Bowties are permitted but I've not seen a
Scottish DR in a bowtie for decades.

Perhaps, then, charles's observation was a bit of a red herring.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2022 10:20:23 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely.

No, Peter, they don't. They remove their street clothing and don
scrubs. Been there. Done that.

"Scrubs" being a shortening of "scrub suits", or the garments worn
when when the surgeon scrubs up prior to surgery. Also called
"Greens" from the color of the fabric that used to be the most
commonly used. I've even heard surgeons refer to "Greens" when the
actual color of the scrubs was blue.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

No, they are not sterile. They are put on in the surgeon's dressing
room which is not a sterile environment. They are worn one time, then
washed but not sterilized, and returned to use unless damaged. They
are covered by sterile gowns applied after the surgeon scrubs up in
the OR.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that
situation. of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons
do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely. No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

Absolutely true, but when did sterile clothingget introduced?

Too many years after Mr. Semmelweis and Mr. Lister discovered
its importance. James A. Garfield would have been one of the
great presidents but was killed by the doctors who kept probing
his bullet wound.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely. No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

My guess would be that even American surgeons must exist in places other
than the operating theatre. They are still surgeons, even when not
wielding a scalpel.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely. No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

My guess would be that even American surgeons must exist in places other
than the operating theatre. They are still surgeons, even when not
wielding a scalpel.

What would constrain their choice of tie type?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2022 05:24:12 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

perhaps that's a UK thing.

Over Here, Operating Room personnel wear garments that cover
their street clothes entirely. No ties, or anything else, dangle over
a patient. And those garments are, at least at the start, sterile.

My guess would be that even American surgeons must exist in places other
than the operating theatre. They are still surgeons, even when not
wielding a scalpel.

What would constrain their choice of tie type?

In the case of a bow tie, hopefully a wife with some fashion sense
that won't let him leave the house wearing one.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

A surgeon would not wear any tie when performing surgery. He or she
would be wearing the top to a set of "scrubs".

On rounds, a surgeon may wear a bow tie. It might be called just a
"bow", though, if the surgeon is female.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

They don't put them on until the patient is anesthesized.

(No matter how I spell that, my spill-chucker rejects it.)

bill

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

They don't put them on until the patient is anesthesized.
(No matter how I spell that, my spill-chucker rejects it.)

It needs a T. Anesthetized.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

They don't put them on until the patient is anesthesized.
(No matter how I spell that, my spill-chucker rejects it.)

It needs a T. Anesthetized.

Or, depending on country, anaesthetised.

[Lewis]

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation. of
course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

They don't put them on until the patient is anesthesized.

Right. The surgeon who operated on me a month ago could have been stark
naked for all I would have known.

I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my surgery
to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very short (30 minutes
or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2 hours.

The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

[Snidely]

Post by Lewis

Post by ***@shaw.ca

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the
test. Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some
pretty stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel
ring protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to
contacting the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

at school, we had to tuck our ties inside our shirts in that situation.
of course, we could have worn bow ties - as surgeons do.

I don't remember ever seeing a surgeon wearing a bow tie.

They don't put them on until the patient is anesthesized.

Right. The surgeon who operated on me a month ago could have been stark
naked for all I would have known.

I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my surgery
to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very short (30 minutes
or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2 hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

My last surgery is a blank between "we're giving you something to make
you more comfortable" and "Time to wakeup now". The surgeon told my
SO, who was also my driver, that I gave very clear answers.

/dps

[lar3ryca]

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my surgery
to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very short (30 minutes
or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2 hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

--
Sam Plusnet

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"

When I had my prostate re-bored, the anaesthetist recommended a spinal
block instead of an anaesthetic, and she said I could watch the
operation. She also gave me a sedative to keep me calm. The sedative was
so effective that I dropped off to sleep.

A spinal block has one disadvantage. When I woke I discovered what it
was like to be paraplegic. A disconcerting feeling.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2022 10:59:13 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"
When I had my prostate re-bored, the anaesthetist recommended a spinal
block instead of an anaesthetic, and she said I could watch the
operation. She also gave me a sedative to keep me calm. The sedative was
so effective that I dropped off to sleep.
A spinal block has one disadvantage. When I woke I discovered what it
was like to be paraplegic. A disconcerting feeling.

I watched my colonoscopy on the television monitor, and I jokingly
asked the MD if he could give me photographs.

He obliged and gave me two.

I showed my Welsh stepfather and said, "Do you know what this is?"

He said, "No", and I replied, "Well, you are looking up my ass".

Funny thing: He wasn't amused,

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"
When I had my prostate re-bored, the anaesthetist recommended a spinal
block instead of an anaesthetic, and she said I could watch the
operation. She also gave me a sedative to keep me calm. The sedative was
so effective that I dropped off to sleep.

I had an inguinal hernia repaired, and was given a spinal. I was amazed
by how effective it was. I was awake though most of it. I did not ask
for a mirror so I could watch, but I was tempted to.

Post by Peter Moylan
A spinal block has one disadvantage. When I woke I discovered what it
was like to be paraplegic. A disconcerting feeling.

You are definitely right about knowing what it must be like to be a
paraplegic. It is very disconcerting indeed.

While recovering, I tried now and then to move my toes. I asked the
nurse to expose my toes, so I could watch them while I tried to move
them. It was even stranger to see the lack of movement, no matter how
hard I tried.

Post by Peter Moylan
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

[Janet]

In article <sr2n0j$evi$***@dont-email.me>, ***@pmoylan.org.invalid
says...

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"

I watched my last colonoscopy on the screen, conscious throughout.
Thank goodness I'd given my colon a very thorough laundering beforehand.

Previous to that, the teenage surgeon who performed my keyhole surgery
brought me a full page of colour photo images to illustrate her
adventures and activities in my innards. I asked if I could have a
photocopy to take home and she shrieked " that is a VERY weird request,
NO".

Janet.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"

I watched my last colonoscopy on the screen, conscious throughout.
Thank goodness I'd given my colon a very thorough laundering beforehand.
Previous to that, the teenage surgeon who performed my keyhole surgery
brought me a full page of colour photo images to illustrate her
adventures and activities in my innards. I asked if I could have a
photocopy to take home and she shrieked " that is a VERY weird request,
NO".

Google have already bought the rights to all the videos, as an adjunct
to "Street View".

[Snidely]

On Wednesday, Sam Plusnet pointed out that ...

Post by Janet
says...

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Lewis
I asked the Anesthetist if I could stay awake enough during my
surgery to watch, but that was not to be. The surgery was very
short (30 minutes or so) but the interval of time I lost was 2
hours.
The surgeon was young enough to be my daughter. It was my first surgery.

As you drift off, you hear the surgeon reply "Mine too."

Less scary than hearing him say "oops".

When I went in for a colonoscopy, I was drifting off as I heard the
surgeon say "Now, which leg are we removing?"

I watched my last colonoscopy on the screen, conscious throughout.
Thank goodness I'd given my colon a very thorough laundering beforehand.
Previous to that, the teenage surgeon who performed my keyhole surgery
brought me a full page of colour photo images to illustrate her
adventures and activities in my innards. I asked if I could have a
photocopy to take home and she shrieked " that is a VERY weird request,
NO".

Google have already bought the rights to all the videos, as an adjunct to
"Street View".

A few exceptions, as I think for at least one of my 'scopys the report
sent home with me included a couple pictures. (First was bottom up,
the second top down. Good software meets in the middle.)

I have no pictures from when the bag of marbles was removed nor from
when the lower wall was repaired.

/dps

[phil]

Post by Peter Moylan

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
To get a suitable AC voltage source, use the sort of step-down
transformer that is in some consumer devices to provide a 5V or 10V
power supply.

On Jan's advice, I got some variable transformers.

Post by Peter Moylan
Make sure that it's wired up and packaged in such a way that the
students can't stick their fingers on the high-voltage side.

Anyone who does that wouldn't have amounted to much as an engineer
anyway.

I once suggested a new entrance exam for our EE degree. Put a bare wire,
carrying a large voltage, across the doorway. Those who duck pass the test.
Having said that, I have to add that I've seen students do some pretty
stupid things in the labs. Such as the young woman whose navel ring
protruded over the lab bench, and occasionally came close to contacting
the circuit she was working on.
Our worst case was someone whose wedding ring became arc-welded to a
415V terminal. But at least we were successful in banning people wearing
ties from the machines lab.

I still have the old laboratory safety manual from my undergraduate
days. In the section on safety in workshops, two items always strike me
as carrying a weary acknowledgement that students are capable of doing
really dumb things:

"Get help when carrying long lengths of metal, and avoid poking them
into light fittings"

(Cranes, Hoists, Forklifts etc) "Remember that considerable damage can
be caused by attempting to lift a load which is bolted to the floor".

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.
I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of protection for
the case where you connect the voltage to the current terminals.

It does nowadays. The greedy electricity company
has replaced the revolving disk type true Watt meters
by electronic ones that measure VA instead.

It's a steal, but what can you do about it?

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.
I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of protection
for the case where you connect the voltage to the current
terminals.

It does nowadays. The greedy electricity company has replaced the
revolving disk type true Watt meters by electronic ones that measure
VA instead.
It's a steal, but what can you do about it?

Do you have a reference for that? If true, that's fraud, and we
definitely could do something about it.

There's no fundamental reason why electronic power meters could not
measure kW rather than kVA. A company that sold a meter to measure
energy consumed would have its reputation shot to pieces if anyone
discovered that it hadn't included the power factor in its calculations.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one for
voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.
I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of protection
for the case where you connect the voltage to the current
terminals.

It does nowadays. The greedy electricity company has replaced the
revolving disk type true Watt meters by electronic ones that measure
VA instead.
It's a steal, but what can you do about it?

Do you have a reference for that? If true, that's fraud, and we
definitely could do something about it.

I verified, for a switched power supply with a small \cos\phi.

Post by Peter Moylan
There's no fundamental reason why electronic power meters could not
measure kW rather than kVA. A company that sold a meter to measure
energy consumed would have its reputation shot to pieces if anyone
discovered that it hadn't included the power factor in its calculations.

Some consumer organisation tested it, and found large discrepancies.
Nobody seems to care.
BTW, they found that you can have discrepancies
the other way round too.
(when putting switching things in series)

Jan

[Peter Moylan]

Sun, 2 Jan 2022 22:13:07 +1100: Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
One big-ticket item we kept having to buy, I remember, was
wattmeters. Students were good at blowing them up.

I make my students use one multimeter for current and one
for voltage.

Yes, but that doesn't work for ac circuits.
I believe that more modern wattmeters have some sort of
protection for the case where you connect the voltage to the
current terminals.

It does nowadays. The greedy electricity company has replaced
the revolving disk type true Watt meters by electronic ones that
measure VA instead.
It's a steal, but what can you do about it?

Do you have a reference for that? If true, that's fraud, and we
definitely could do something about it.
There's no fundamental reason why electronic power meters could
not measure kW rather than kVA. A company that sold a meter to
measure energy consumed would have its reputation shot to pieces if
anyone discovered that it hadn't included the power factor in its
calculations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattmeter#Digital "A modern digital
wattmeter samples the voltage and current thousands of times a
second. For each sample, the voltage is multiplied by the current at
the same instant; the average over at least one cycle is the real
power. The real power divided by the apparent volt-amperes (VA) is
the power factor. "

Thanks. That's exactly how I would expect a processor-based instrument
to work. With only a little more calculation you can get real-time
tracking of the period, for a really precise average. (And, as a bonus,
a readout of the frequency if you want it.) I suspect, though, that most
wattmeters don't include that extra tweak.

The reason I'd use that extra tweak is that the meter will work over a
range of frequencies, just as old-fashioned wattmeters did. (But they
used mechanical inertia to do the averaging.) With a quick-and-dirty
design, you might find that a meter designed for a 50 Hz power supply
doesn't work on 60 Hz, or vice versa.

[CDB]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of
the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I
thought vaguely, sitting in one. ("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first
narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for
the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an
index or catalog or inventory list, with the most important
information first even if that isn't natural in English. I
suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the
pampering of." The format in a real list might be "Chairs,
comfortable, clients, for the pampering of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the
British military, but I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items
were paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
It was in the catalogue as: "Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

-- Jerry Friedman

I see it's a patternized expression used locally. So, what effect is
produced by it, or just a play on words by breaking a usual
word-order?

It was probably a familiar pattern drifting through an idle mind. "I
thought vaguely" he says.

The author's purpose may have been to suggest that the narrator does not
take the experience (or his hosts) seriously; you would be a better
judge of that than I am.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index or catalog
or inventory list, with the most important information first even if that isn't natural
in English. I suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of."
The format in a real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the British military, but
I'm not sure about that at all.

Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
"Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

In my experience in the RAF that type of "Housewife" was pronounced
"huzif". The OED agrees.

Oxford's Lexico knows that sense but not the pronnciation:
https://www.lexico.com/definition/housewife

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by lar3ryca
Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
"Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

In my experience in the RAF that type of "Housewife" was pronounced
"huzif". The OED agrees.

I've seen it written "hussif".

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.lexico.com/definition/housewife

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by lar3ryca
Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
"Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

In my experience in the RAF that type of "Housewife" was pronounced
"huzif". The OED agrees.

I've seen it written "hussif".

Confirming [s] not [z].

The American actor Joseph Cotten in a 1947 American movie said
"neview" several times. (nephew, old pronunciation)

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.lexico.com/definition/housewife

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2022 23:00:20 +0000, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by lar3ryca
Your association is bang on. I was in the RCAF, and many items were
paired with "Airmen for the use of".
My favourite was a small sewing kit, meant to keep yout uniform in
good repair.
"Housewife, Airmen for the use of"

In my experience in the RAF that type of "Housewife" was pronounced
"huzif". The OED agrees.

I've seen it written "hussif".

The quotations in the OED use various spellings:

Housewife
hussive
huswife
Hussif

The list of forms is (sense 4 is the one we are discussing):

(Chiefly in sense 4) 1700s husef (Irish English), 1700s hussive
1700s– hussif, 1800s hussives (plural), 1800s hussyfe (Scottish);
English regional 1700s 1900s– husif, 1800s huzziff, 1800s– huzzaf,
1800s– huzzif.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the
desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought
vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator,
entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index or catalog
or inventory list, with the most important information first even if that isn't natural
in English. I suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of."
The format in a real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the British military, but
I'm not sure about that at all.

You're right. Army-speak is the first thing I thought of.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2021 16:55:41 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentences from a novel.
There were chairs, presumably for clients, on the near sides of the desks. Comfortable chairs, clients for the pampering of, I thought vaguely, sitting in one.
("The Edge" by Dick Francis)
context (or situation): At Toronto, Canada, "I" or the first narrator, entered the lobby of a travel company as a customer
question: about "clients for the pampering of", specifically "OF" here.
Is the quoted sentence inverted from "Comfortable chairs, for the pampering of clients" ?

...
Yes. It's a parody of the way items are sometimes listed in an index or catalog
or inventory list, with the most important information first even if that isn't natural
in English. I suspect it should be "Comfortable chairs, clients, for the pampering of."
The format in a real list might be "Chairs, comfortable, clients, for the pampering
of."
I seem to associate that with the military, maybe especially the British military, but
I'm not sure about that at all.

I met that in the (British) Royal Air Force back in the 1950s.
Jokes were made based on that form of description