Discussion:
omission of "if"
(too old to reply)
Stefan Ram
2019-01-15 07:08:58 UTC
Permalink
How common is this omission of "if" as in,

He sells to her, we lose all control.

, for

If he sells to her, we lose all control.

? It seems to be colloquial?

The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is
as if an initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent
sentences are uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.«
Although the last sequence of sentences also can suggest
a conditional relationship.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-15 10:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is
as if an initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent
sentences are uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.«
Although the last sequence of sentences also can suggest
a conditional relationship.
I've read this in crime novels, possibly also heard it in movies, but
haven't heard it in real life.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2019-01-15 16:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is as if an
initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent sentences are
uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.« Although the
last sequence of sentences also can suggest a conditional
relationship.
I've read this in crime novels, possibly also heard it in movies,
but haven't heard it in real life.
It came up a year or two ago, under the heading "baseball conditional".

I had planned to post a link, but I see that there are many hits on the
phrase in "discussions-alt. usage english". It would be better to use
the phrase as a search term and make one's own selection, I think.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 14:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
...

Certainly colloquial. I don't hear it much, but then I don't watch
sports much. This construction is sometimes called the baseball
conditional, though strictly speaking that might be the past
counterfactual version--"He catches that ball, the game's over" for "If
he had caught that ball, the game would be over.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
2019-01-15 16:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
Definitely.

I hadn't thought about this before, but I have the impression that
the fictional characters I've seen using it are mostly from New York.
Could it be a regional usage in the US northeast, or something like that?
Or am I just wrong?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net
#define MSB(type) (~(((unsigned type)-1)>>1))
Jack
2019-01-15 18:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is
as if an initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent
sentences are uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.«
Although the last sequence of sentences also can suggest
a conditional relationship.
"You come one step closer, I'll punch your lights out."

In that statement, I think omission of "if" is likelier than no
Ross
2019-01-16 01:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is
as if an initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent
sentences are uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.«
Although the last sequence of sentences also can suggest
a conditional relationship.
"You come one step closer, I'll punch your lights out."
In that statement, I think omission of "if" is likelier than not.
--
John
Perhaps, but to me it feels more like a challenge, with "and" possible
between the two clauses.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 03:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
The prosody of »He sells to her, we lose all control.« is
as if an initial »If« was present. Not as when two independent
sentences are uttered as in, »He sells to her. We lose all control.«
Although the last sequence of sentences also can suggest
a conditional relationship.
"You come one step closer, I'll punch your lights out."
In that statement, I think omission of "if" is likelier than not.
Though you could put an "and" after "closer".
--
Jerry Friedman
Joseph C. Fineman
2019-01-16 00:35:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
My impression is that it is dialect, and a Yiddishism. However, I may
well be mistaken.
--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: Home is heaven and orgies are vile, :||
||: But I like an orgy, once in a while. :||
Lewis
2019-01-16 13:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
My impression is that it is dialect, and a Yiddishism. However, I may
well be mistaken.
I don't consider it unusual enough to all it dialect, it's just a wat,
to me, of emphasising that the current course (implied by the missing
if) has consequences.

"We do this, we're finished."

"You go down that road (metaphorically) you can't come back."

etc etc.
--
I intend to live forever. So far, so good.
HVS
2019-01-16 13:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
My impression is that it is dialect, and a Yiddishism. However, I may
well be mistaken.
I don't consider it unusual enough to all it dialect, it's just a wat,
to me, of emphasising that the current course (implied by the missing
if) has consequences.
"We do this, we're finished."
"You go down that road (metaphorically) you can't come back."
etc etc.
+1

It sounds unremarkably colloquial to me, rather than from a specific
dialect (geographical or cultural).

It is, though, informal and conversational: I'd not expect to see it in
written form unless someone was being quoted.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-16 14:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by Lewis
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
My impression is that it is dialect, and a Yiddishism. However, I may
well be mistaken.
I don't consider it unusual enough to all it dialect, it's just a wat,
to me, of emphasising that the current course (implied by the missing
if) has consequences.
"We do this, we're finished."
"You go down that road (metaphorically) you can't come back."
etc etc.
+1
It sounds unremarkably colloquial to me, rather than from a specific
dialect (geographical or cultural).
It is, though, informal and conversational: I'd not expect to see it in
written form unless someone was being quoted.
I could envisage it being used in rhetorical speech.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
2019-01-16 14:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by HVS
Post by Lewis
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by Stefan Ram
How common is this omission of "if" as in,
He sells to her, we lose all control.
, for
If he sells to her, we lose all control.
? It seems to be colloquial?
My impression is that it is dialect, and a Yiddishism. However, I
may
Post by HVS
Post by Lewis
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
well be mistaken.
I don't consider it unusual enough to all it dialect, it's just a wat,
to me, of emphasising that the current course (implied by the missing
if) has consequences.
"We do this, we're finished."
"You go down that road (metaphorically) you can't come back."
etc etc.
+1
It sounds unremarkably colloquial to me, rather than from a specific
dialect (geographical or cultural).
It is, though, informal and conversational: I'd not expect to see it in
written form unless someone was being quoted.
I could envisage it being used in rhetorical speech.
Yes -- I'd not thought of that, but it certainly would fit.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30yrs) and BrEng (34yrs), indiscriminately mixed
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