Discussion:
Expat or Immigrant?
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Lewis
2019-10-31 17:49:41 UTC
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What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?

There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.

I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
--
I WILL NOT EXPOSE THE IGNORANCE OF THE FACULTY Bart chalkboard Ep. 8F15
Horace LaBadie
2019-10-31 19:33:36 UTC
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Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
Expats don't give up allegiance to their native country, however
well-acclimated they have become in the new country?
Lanarcam
2019-10-31 20:25:05 UTC
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Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
Expats don't give up allegiance to their native country, however
well-acclimated they have become in the new country?
Just to show bad spirit:

Expats are uebermenschen, immigrants are untermenschen.
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-01 10:30:20 UTC
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Post by Lanarcam
Expats are uebermenschen, immigrants are untermenschen.
Here, have one of these: Ü. :-)
--
Paul.
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-31 19:50:21 UTC
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Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 20:44:35 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
--
athel
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-01 14:13:33 UTC
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For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for people in the UK
I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you?  Could you talk about meeting some "other expats" or the
difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the you-know-what is sorted, I'm
just another european citizen. Then I'll be an immigrant. I'll have a British passport,
without the right to free movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart
anyone?

Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 15:38:33 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the you-know-what is sorted, I'm
just another european citizen. Then I'll be an immigrant. I'll have a British passport,
without the right to free movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart
anyone?
Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
Can you not register your car locally without becoming an ES citizen?

When I moved from NY to NJ I had to change my car registration many months
before the old registration expired, in order to get a local on-street
parking permit. The State of New York had to refund the pro-rated fraction
of the less than $50 annual fee -- and I had to return my old NY license
plates in person after affixing the new NJ ones.
occam
2019-11-02 08:39:48 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the
you-know-what is sorted, I'm just another european citizen. Then I'll be
an immigrant. I'll have a British passport, without the right to free
movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart anyone?
Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
I'm sorry, how does that last bit work? How do police know you have a
British passport by your parked car - unless you park illegally. If you
mean "When I'm stopped and have to show my ID by the police... " then
that's another matter. (I am assuming you drive a car with Spanish
license plates. If you still have your UK license plates after x years,
you are most probably breaking the law.)
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-02 11:43:20 UTC
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Post by occam
Post by Paul Carmichael
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the
you-know-what is sorted, I'm just another european citizen. Then I'll be
an immigrant. I'll have a British passport, without the right to free
movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart anyone?
Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
I'm sorry, how does that last bit work? How do police know you have a
British passport by your parked car - unless you park illegally. If you
mean "When I'm stopped and have to show my ID by the police... " then
that's another matter. (I am assuming you drive a car with Spanish
license plates. If you still have your UK license plates after x years,
you are most probably breaking the law.)
I got fined 200 euros for having 2 wheels on the kerb. My Spanish neighbours do this all
the time. In exactly the same spot.

We live in a small village. Everybody knows each other. I personally know the person that
wrote the ticket. The car was across the road from my house. He could have knocked the
door or phoned me. Oh, and that bit of footpath is never used as such. Never has been.

There is another Brit couple a few doors down the street. They got fined for parking on
the wrong side of the street. The other neighbours do this regularly.

This same policeman stood by and watched a British bloke (pensioner) get beaten up for
feeding the stray cats.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-02 13:24:16 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by occam
Post by Paul Carmichael
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the
you-know-what is sorted, I'm just another european citizen. Then I'll be
an immigrant. I'll have a British passport, without the right to free
movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart anyone?
Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
I'm sorry, how does that last bit work? How do police know you have a
British passport by your parked car - unless you park illegally. If you
mean "When I'm stopped and have to show my ID by the police... " then
that's another matter. (I am assuming you drive a car with Spanish
license plates. If you still have your UK license plates after x years,
you are most probably breaking the law.)
I got fined 200 euros for having 2 wheels on the kerb. My Spanish
neighbours do this all the time. In exactly the same spot.
We live in a small village. Everybody knows each other. I personally
know the person that wrote the ticket. The car was across the road from
my house. He could have knocked the door or phoned me. Oh, and that bit
of footpath is never used as such. Never has been.
There is another Brit couple a few doors down the street. They got
fined for parking on the wrong side of the street. The other neighbours
do this regularly.
This same policeman stood by and watched a British bloke (pensioner)
get beaten up for feeding the stray cats.
It's different in France, or at least in Marseilles. Not long after we
came here I parked in a place I wasn't supposed to, and the car was
towed away. When the policeman supervising the tow lorry realized that
I was foreign he was incredibly apologetic and asked the driver of the
tow lorry to take me to the pound. (Normally I should have had to take
a taxi or a bus.) On reaching the pound I was supposed to show my
documents and pay for the tow. I didn't have the documents with me, or
enough money to pay the fee. The man there said I could take the car
but I should come back later and show the documents and pay for the tow.

A year or two later we were celebrating the Revolution, when our
daughter was five and needed a revolutionary hat. I was ill in bed and
my wife went to the only place where one can buy such things. She
double-parked across the street from the shop in a place where single
parking was forbidden. While she was in the shop someone came in and
said that illegally parked cars were being towed away, so she rushed
out after paying and saw that the car was still there. The problem was
that she was pointing into the city and she needed to go in the
opposite direction and wasn't sure how to do that. She asked the
policeman in charge of the tow lorries for advice. "Where are you
parked?" he asked. She gestured vaguely in the direction of the car,
but he was insistent, so she showed him the car. He told her to get in
the car and give him a sign when she was ready to drive off. After she
had done this he stopped the traffic in both directions (on a major
street) and signalled her to do a U turn. That was the end of the
story: no fine, no little lecture about the importance of not parking
illegally.
--
athel
Tak To
2019-11-02 16:19:56 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by occam
Post by Paul Carmichael
I don't get called an immigrant here in Spain. And until the
you-know-what is sorted, I'm just another european citizen. Then I'll be
an immigrant. I'll have a British passport, without the right to free
movement around Europe. But living in Europe. Hell in a handcart anyone?
Difficulties? Well, I get parking tickets where natives don't.
I'm sorry, how does that last bit work? How do police know you have a
British passport by your parked car - unless you park illegally. If you
mean "When I'm stopped and have to show my ID by the police... " then
that's another matter. (I am assuming you drive a car with Spanish
license plates. If you still have your UK license plates after x years,
you are most probably breaking the law.)
I got fined 200 euros for having 2 wheels on the kerb. My Spanish neighbours do this all
the time. In exactly the same spot.
We live in a small village. Everybody knows each other. I personally know the person that
wrote the ticket. The car was across the road from my house. He could have knocked the
door or phoned me. Oh, and that bit of footpath is never used as such. Never has been.
There is another Brit couple a few doors down the street. They got fined for parking on
the wrong side of the street. The other neighbours do this regularly.
This same policeman stood by and watched a British bloke (pensioner) get beaten up for
feeding the stray cats.
It looks like you are persecuted politically. You can apply
for asylum in the US.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2019-11-01 14:15:52 UTC
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On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 15:41:48 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
There are more categories than that. Migrant farm workers are neither
"immigrants" nor "ex-pats." They retain their (typically) Mexican
citizenship and cross the border as the harvest seasons call.

If France calls someone an "immigrant" who has no intention of settling
permanently (they do make it harder to become a citizen than the US (at
least until the last couple of years), don't they?), then they have a
gap in their lexicon.
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-01 16:20:08 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in Europe. Most of them
are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't decided yet.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-01 18:00:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-01 18:23:06 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:00:29 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure
out what it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in
Mexico do not call themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and
another in Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats"
but neither knows why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an
immigrant; for people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
Would that be (as far as UK stats are concerned) a surge in emigration;
and therefore a net loss in immigration; an UKIP/Brexit win!


P.S. why, FFS one 'm' in one and not the other? to confuse immigrants?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-01 18:42:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:00:29 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure
out what it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in
Mexico do not call themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and
another in Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats"
but neither knows why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an
immigrant; for people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
Would that be (as far as UK stats are concerned) a surge in emigration;
and therefore a net loss in immigration; an UKIP/Brexit win!
P.S. why, FFS one 'm' in one and not the other? to confuse immigrants?
Are you comparing immigrant with emigrant? If so, one is in-migrant
(from Latin "in"), the other is e-migrant (from Latin "e", sometimes,
but not necessarily "ex").
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-01 20:36:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:42:41 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:00:29 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure
out what it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in
Mexico do not call themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and
another in Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats"
but neither knows why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an
immigrant; for people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American. An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
Would that be (as far as UK stats are concerned) a surge in
emigration;
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
and therefore a net loss in immigration; an UKIP/Brexit win!
P.S. why, FFS one 'm' in one and not the other? to confuse immigrants?
Are you comparing immigrant with emigrant? If so, one is in-migrant
(from Latin "in"), the other is e-migrant (from Latin "e", sometimes,
but not necessarily "ex").
Thanks; but it's nearly as bad as flamable and inflamable, or insolation
v. insulation and hyperthermia v. hypothermia.

English is a bastard language.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
occam
2019-11-02 08:45:40 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Thanks; but it's nearly as bad as flamable and inflamable
...also known as flammable and inflammable. Are you economising on "m"s?
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-02 11:52:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Thanks; but it's nearly as bad as flamable and inflamable
I don't need no steenkin spellchecker!
Post by occam
...also known as flammable and inflammable. Are you economising on
"m"s?
aybe. eo to self: check the otion of the key.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2019-11-01 22:49:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:00:29 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
Would that be (as far as UK stats are concerned) a surge in emigration;
and therefore a net loss in immigration; an UKIP/Brexit win!
P.S. why, FFS one 'm' in one and not the other? to confuse immigrants?
Turns out there are very few such pairs around: imminence & eminence,
but they're not strongly connected, meaning-wise; innervation and
enervation. That's all I could find quickly.

If it wasn't clear yet, the answer is that the opposing Latin prefixes
are in- and e-. In other cases, they are in- and ex-, which gives e.g.
import/export or influx/efflux. So it's been confusing this way since
Roman times.

| ē-
|
| Alternative form of ex- (combining with b-, d-, g-, j-, l-, m-, n-, r-, and v-initial words).

(Wiktionary)

Ok: irruption/eruption; illocution/elocution.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
occam
2019-11-02 09:00:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 07:31:56 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you?  Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
I would say that an immigrant to this country comes here with the
intent of eventually becoming an American.  An ex-pat will always
consider him/herself to be what they were before they came here.
I was recently talking to some fellow (Brit) translators that live in
Europe. Most of them are changing nationality for brexit. I haven't
decided yet.
We have decided, and applied, but it takes a long time. I could become
Irish quite quickly, but my wife couldn't.
Thereby answering the question. You were an expat ("European citizen")
and now are in the process of becoming an immigrant. The fact that it
took you so long to apply for French citizenship means you did not think
of yourself as an immigrant. Neither did your colleages at CNRS, in all
probability.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-01 17:58:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
As in emigrate & immigrate.
It all depends on your viewpoint.
For me it's perfectly clear. For people in France I'm an immigrant; for
people in the UK I'm an ex-pat.
But what are you for you? Could you talk about meeting some "other
expats" or the difficulties you face "as an immigrant", or both?
Good question. If the conversation happened in France I'd probably say
"immigrant"; if it happened anywhere else I might say "ex-pat", but I'm
not sure. As it happened, I was talking yesterday to someone I'd just
met who was also British and living in France, but I don't think we
discussed your point.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 19:52:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
agreeing with what I said in this thread on the subject:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
--
Jerry Friedman
occam
2019-11-01 07:54:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.

The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence. Brussels
is full of expats who work for European institutions. No one in their
right mind would refer to them as "immigrants" - not even the Belgians.
Cheryl
2019-11-01 10:03:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence. Brussels
is full of expats who work for European institutions. No one in their
right mind would refer to them as "immigrants" - not even the Belgians.
While "immigrant" may sometimes have a negative connotation, I don't
think it always does, or is always applied to working class people. At
the time, we didn't use "ex-pat" but when my father lived in Canada, he
wasn't considered an immigrant because he came as an employee of an
American company and was expected to move on to another country sooner
or later. When my parents moved to the US, my mother was considered an
immigrant - although people generally didn't realize she was a pretty
reluctant one - because the assumption was that she was moving there
permanently. Both my parents were more or less of the same social
status, and although they both worked for pay, were probably not what is
meant by "working class". There were many war brides in my parents' day
- they were immigrants, not ex-pats or temporary workers, whatever their
social class.
--
Cheryl
Lewis
2019-11-01 12:05:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence. Brussels
is full of expats who work for European institutions. No one in their
right mind would refer to them as "immigrants" - not even the Belgians.
Interesting.
--
Last night I stayed up late playing poker with Tarot cards. I got a full house and four people died.
Quinn C
2019-11-01 16:13:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
Post by occam
Brussels
is full of expats who work for European institutions. No one in their
right mind would refer to them as "immigrants" - not even the Belgians.
Yes, but those are actually likely to go back to their country when
their job is done. Of course if they were staunch Europeans, they
wouldn't consider themselves either.
--
It was frequently the fastest way to find what he was looking
for, provided that he was looking for trouble.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen
Tony Cooper
2019-11-01 16:39:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.

The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
There's no argument that many immigrants are highly educated, and many
are unable to get employment in the US that their education would
qualify them for. However, that "on average" statement is questioned.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl
2019-11-01 21:22:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
There's no argument that many immigrants are highly educated, and many
are unable to get employment in the US that their education would
qualify them for. However, that "on average" statement is questioned.
In my part of Canada, which however is often atypical, immigrants used
to be mostly well-educated. The stereotypical immigrant in my youth was
working as a university professor, doctor or nurse. More recently, the
category has broadened to include refugees from all kinds of education
backgrounds who are engaged in a wider range of activities - improving
their language skills while on government assistance, moving into
lower-skill jobs like cleaning, fast food etc, working through the
sometimes arcane processes to get their credentials recognized (if they
have any), and starting small businesses. We've even had a couple
farmers from the middle east work on farms here in spite of the very
different climate and the conviction of most locals that almost any job
is easier and pays better than farming. I would not consider illegal
asylum seekers to be immigrants. I suspect most of them head for more
urban areas anyway, as do most of the immigrants and a great many of the
native-born.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2019-11-02 02:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
There's no argument that many immigrants are highly educated, and many
are unable to get employment in the US that their education would
qualify them for. However, that "on average" statement is questioned.
In my part of Canada, which however is often atypical, immigrants used
to be mostly well-educated.
All well and good, but Quinn's assuming the same is true in the US. I
challenge that.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2019-11-02 02:14:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 13:20:45 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
I see. We have different perspectives.
For one, I work in a field - research and high tech - where the US is
reliant on a constant stream of highly-educated immigrants, because it
can't produce as many workers as are needed.
If I was to make an observation on the average immigrant based solely
on my perspective, it would be that the average immigrant speaks
Spanish. I would not make that observation, though, because one's
personal perspective is not a valid indicator.
Secondly, when I hear "immigrant", I primarily think of people who
apply for immigration, get accepted ("green card") and then move, and
secondarily people who come for work and stay. Refugees and asylum
seekers are in a separate category to start with, although I can see
that they do end up being immigrants eventually if they stay.
What's the difference? The asylum seeker applies for immigration,
gets accepted, and stays. They all would like to work, and most end
up in some form of employment.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2019-11-02 15:53:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 13:20:45 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
I see. We have different perspectives.
For one, I work in a field - research and high tech - where the US is
reliant on a constant stream of highly-educated immigrants, because it
can't produce as many workers as are needed.
If I was to make an observation on the average immigrant based solely
on my perspective, it would be that the average immigrant speaks
Spanish. I would not make that observation, though, because one's
personal perspective is not a valid indicator.
Secondly, when I hear "immigrant", I primarily think of people who
apply for immigration, get accepted ("green card") and then move, and
secondarily people who come for work and stay. Refugees and asylum
seekers are in a separate category to start with, although I can see
that they do end up being immigrants eventually if they stay.
My usage of the terms is very similar to Quinn's. (See
my earlier reply to another of your message.) That is
probably because both of us have gone through a
governmental immigration process.
Post by Tony Cooper
What's the difference? The asylum seeker applies for immigration,
gets accepted, and stays. They all would like to work, and most end
up in some form of employment.
The difference, from the perspective of governmental
policy, lies in how "worthy" each category of new comers
are. Worthiness can be measured by economical, cultural
as well as moral considerations. (And by practicality
and enforceablilty as well, perhaps on a secondary level.)

Note that I am not advocating any particular policy here.
I seek only to delineate the different categories of new
comers. I have noted in the past that people are wont to
conflate these categories because of their own political
views.

Now back to your question. I think there it makes a big
difference what kind of a job the new comer can fill. It
is not clear to me that admitting someone who can fill
only a low paying job is beneficial to the society as a
whole in the long run. And the term "asylum seeker" is
a bit broad for me, for the current usage includes both
people who suffer from genuine political prosecution as
well those get caught being inside the country illegally
and then ask for asylum as a Hail Mary effort to avoid
being deported.

A couple of weeks ago John Oliver had an episode on
immigration. Have you seen it? What do you think?
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tak To
2019-11-02 04:03:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
Are you talking about legal immigrants only?

FWIW, there are also (resettled) refugees, whom I am not sure
if you count as asylum seekers who have been granted asylum.
Refugees tend to have minimal education as well.

I tend to restrict the term "refugee" to those recognized by
the UNCHR (UN High Commissioner for Refugee)[1]. The re-
settlements of refugees in the US are typically brokered en
bloc by the UNCHR. I would use "asylum seeker" for the rest
whose cases are dealt with more on an individual basis.

I wonder if a distinction can/should be made between asylum
seekers who have actually experienced persecution and those
who asked for asylum opportunistically as a last resort to
get legal immigration status.

Btw, many immigrants who came on the basis of family reunion
are poorly educated as well. It varies quite a lot based
on the country of origin.

[1] In the UK, there is a concept of granting "status of
refugee" which is more or less the same as granting asylum.
I don't think this special usage should change the general
definition of a refugee being a person displaced because of
political turmoil.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr









] A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted
] for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a
] particular social group or political opinion, is outside the
] country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear,
] is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country;
] or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country
] of his former habitual residence as a result of such events,
] is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.
Post by Tony Cooper
The question is about numbers because you have said "on average".
There's no argument that many immigrants are highly educated, and many
are unable to get employment in the US that their education would
qualify them for. However, that "on average" statement is questioned.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2019-11-02 04:41:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
Are you talking about legal immigrants only?
I have no way of knowing. An immigrant is a person who has come to
this country from another country. A "legal immigrant" is a person
who has come to this country from another country and been granted
authorization to live and work in this country.

The only way I can tell if an immigrant is "legal" is to ask to see
his/her "green card", and that's not always an effective test.

Trump would probably like to see them tattooed on the lip like horses
to show they're legal, but it hasn't come to that yet.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2019-11-02 16:09:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 12:13:44 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
I'm inclined to agree with Horace, though I might say "identification
with" rather than "allegiance to". I haven't checked whether I'm
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/zd5yoc_OZQI/JMzkjxV-AwAJ
Thank you for that link. I thought that the issue was well thrashed out
at that time.
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
I don't think that's the case at all in the US. We have so many that
are here as "asylum seekers", and I don't think they have much of a
formal education.
Are you talking about legal immigrants only?
Just to clarify: it was purely an inquiry of your usage of
the term "immigrant".
Post by Tony Cooper
I have no way of knowing. An immigrant is a person who has come to
this country from another country. A "legal immigrant" is a person
who has come to this country from another country and been granted
authorization to live and work in this country.
By the same token, how do you know someone is an immigrant
at all?
Post by Tony Cooper
The only way I can tell if an immigrant is "legal" is to ask to see
his/her "green card", and that's not always an effective test.
Trump would probably like to see them tattooed on the lip like horses
to show they're legal, but it hasn't come to that yet.
It is a topic for another debate, but a quick random check
of legal status is an indispensable element in enforcing any
immigration policy at all in areas of high level of illegal
immigration -- not that the average US citizen will go for
it anytime soon.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
occam
2019-11-02 12:16:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 01/11/2019 17:13,
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
The only new 'take' characterising the difference is well summarised by
Lanarcam. "Immigrants" has a negative connotation, and is normally used
to describe working class people. "Expats" are professionals, who may
(or not) have made a commitment to their country of residence.
I think at best that's a European perspective. In Canada, and I assume
also the US or Australia, it is well known that immigrants have, on
average, higher education than the natives. I mean... you know what I
mean by natives.
Indulge me in this Ngram search:

"bloody immigrant" vs "bloody expat", as an insult.

TinyURL

https://tinyurl.com/yxr2t2wp


[As a control, here is the Ngram of "immigrant" vs. "expat"]

https://tinyurl.com/y3x4mg8x


(P.S. I have tried several alternative insulting adjectives. All give
the same response. Blank for expat.)
Spains Harden
2019-11-01 16:36:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
Immigrants intend to stay.
Expats intend to go back home.
Tak To
2019-11-01 17:49:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
What is the difference between an Expat and an immigrant?
The terms are not mutually exclusive.

"Immigrant" implies a willingness to settle down permanently
and to "go native", so to speak. There is also a legal
definition of immigration which varies from country to country.
Post by Lewis
There seems to be some difference, but I can't seem to figure out what
it is. Certainly the Americans I know and knew in Mexico do not call
themselves immigrants.
I have a friend in Thailand who has lived there 20 years, and another in
Japan who's been there 15 years. Both are "expats" but neither knows
why when I asked.
Perhaps your friends identified themselves as ex-pats because
the were talking to *you*. OTOH, do you know if they have
gone through the legal immigration process in the respective
countries?
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
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