Discussion:
"some" referring to "ice cream" in "ice cream vendor"
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Yurui Liu
2021-03-04 03:11:12 UTC
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Hi,

In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.

Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.


I'd appreciate your help.
Mark Brader
2021-03-04 03:56:10 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
--
Mark Brader | "Reality aside, we would like to deploy a methodology
***@vex.net | for how Rooter might behave in theory."
Toronto | -- scigen.pl (Stribling, Krohn, and Aguayo)
Yurui Liu
2021-03-04 09:15:28 UTC
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Mark Brader 在 2021年3月4日 星期四上午11:56:18 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."

Let's consider a similar example:

Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.

Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
--
Mark Brader | "Reality aside, we would like to deploy a methodology
Toronto | -- scigen.pl (Stribling, Krohn, and Aguayo)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-04 13:52:30 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader 在 2021年3月4日 星期四上午11:56:18 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
Don't take grammar advice from non-native speakers. The construction
you cite is known as an "anaphoric peninsula." The name is a play on
"anaphoric island," and was introduced in the early 1970s.

http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/id/eprint/66464/1/__smbhome.uscs.susx.ac.uk_ellenaj_Desktop_SRO_TonySanfordMemRevisionSubmittedClean-1.pdf

is a discussion of the earlier term that isn't hidden behind a JSTOR paywall.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/246365/my-cousins-learned-korean-there

is a less than ideal note on anaphoric peninsulas. The term was introduced
in 1973 by Claudia Corum in the Papers from the Ninth Regional Meeting of
the Chicago Linguistic Society, which seems to be available neither on line
nor for purchase.
Post by Yurui Liu
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No.
Lewis
2021-03-04 14:53:43 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader 在 2021年3月4日 星期四上午11:56:18 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
Not likely unless you had previously established you were looking for
cars. It could mean something else as well, but as it stand without
context, it's gibberish.

"I could really use a bottle of bleach"

Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.

"Weird, there are no people on the street."

Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
--
I think we need to send some time apart so we know what's real and what's fox.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-05 00:50:09 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader 在 2021年3月4日 星期四上午11:56:18 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense
syntactically, and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there
selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
That might work if you're in a place where it is customary for car
washes to sell ice cream.

In other words, it depends on context; in this case, the fact that ice
cream has already been mentioned.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
micky
2021-03-04 19:43:40 UTC
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In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mark Brader ? 2021?3?4? ?????11:56:18 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
I thought of that, but the relationship in your first sentence at the
top is so obvious that it's fine. In your own example, the some does
not refer to anything previously mentioned, as it often does. It's
short for some ice cream. (Is that called an elipsis here?)
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No. I don't know why this one's no good. Maybe because sometimes they
are empty. But an ice cream without ice cream is not worth mentioning.
--
Mark Brader | "Reality aside, we would like to deploy a methodology
Toronto | -- scigen.pl (Stribling, Krohn, and Aguayo)
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
Quinn C
2021-03-04 23:52:10 UTC
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Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mark Brader ? 2021?3?4? ?????11:56:18 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
I thought of that, but the relationship in your first sentence at the
top is so obvious that it's fine. In your own example, the some does
not refer to anything previously mentioned, as it often does. It's
short for some ice cream. (Is that called an elipsis here?)
Being in a different sentence, the relationship is still malleable, and
some sloppiness is tolerated. The tighter the grammatical bond, the
wronger that reference should feel:

There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Let's go over to that ice cream vendor and buy some.
Over there's an ice cream vendor, of which we should buy some.

(Because compound modifiers are syntactic islands, not reachable from
the surrounding sentence.)
--
Who would know aught of art must learn and then take his ease.
Yurui Liu
2021-03-05 02:36:00 UTC
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micky 在 2021年3月5日 星期五上午3:43:47 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mark Brader ? 2021?3?4? ?????11:56:18 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
I thought of that, but the relationship in your first sentence at the
top is so obvious that it's fine. In your own example, the some does
not refer to anything previously mentioned, as it often does. It's
short for some ice cream. (Is that called an elipsis here?)
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No. I don't know why this one's no good. Maybe because sometimes they
are empty. But an ice cream without ice cream is not worth mentioning.
Thank you. How about the following example?

Look! There's a car factory over there. There must be some inside.
Post by micky
--
Mark Brader | "Reality aside, we would like to deploy a methodology
Toronto | -- scigen.pl (Stribling, Krohn, and Aguayo)
--
Please say where you live, or what
area's English you are asking about.
So your question or answer makes sense.
. .
I have lived all my life in the USA,
Western Pa. Indianapolis, Chicago,
Brooklyn, Baltimore.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-05 14:35:44 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
micky 在 2021年3月5日 星期五上午3:43:47 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Post by Yurui Liu
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No. I don't know why this one's no good. Maybe because sometimes they
are empty. But an ice cream without ice cream is not worth mentioning.
Thank you. How about the following example?
Look! There's a car factory over there. There must be some inside.
Oddly, we don't say "car factory," but something like "automobile plant."
But no, you can't say that. Maybe because there's more than one word?
"Look! There's a corsetier over there! Let's get one (ad s gag gift for our
anorexic friend ....)."

(Not many establishments manufacture one single item. You have a
knack for inventing sentences to investigate syntax that are semantically
anomalous.)
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-05 14:49:15 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
micky 在 2021年3月5日 星期五上午3:43:47 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mark Brader ? 2021?3?4? ?????11:56:18 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
I thought of that, but the relationship in your first sentence at the
top is so obvious that it's fine. In your own example, the some does
not refer to anything previously mentioned, as it often does. It's
short for some ice cream. (Is that called an elipsis here?)
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No. I don't know why this one's no good. Maybe because sometimes they
are empty. But an ice cream without ice cream is not worth mentioning.
Thank you. How about the following example?
Look! There's a car factory over there. There must be some inside.
...

That's never going to work. It's too hard to imagine a place where there's
a car wash or assembly plant but finding cars is worthy of note.

Maybe I should add that the reason my "Uncle Marty" example was natural to
me was that all of us kids knew the reference. In writing about material that's
likely to be difficult for readers, these anaphoric islands and peninsulas are
probably bad choices.
--
Jerry Friedman
Lewis
2021-03-05 19:08:11 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
micky 在 2021年3月5日 星期五上午3:43:47 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道:
Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:15:28 -0800 (PST), Yurui Liu
Mark Brader ? 2021?3?4? ?????11:56:18 [UTC+8] ??????
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
I thought of that, but the relationship in your first sentence at the
top is so obvious that it's fine. In your own example, the some does
not refer to anything previously mentioned, as it often does. It's
short for some ice cream. (Is that called an elipsis here?)
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
No. I don't know why this one's no good. Maybe because sometimes they
are empty. But an ice cream without ice cream is not worth mentioning.
Thank you. How about the following example?
Look! There's a car factory over there. There must be some inside.
Same. You probably need to establish some WHAT before hand.

People do not go into a car factory to get a car.
--
he sat on the bank, while the river still chattered on to him, a
babbling procession of the best stories in the world, sent from
the heart of the earth to be told at last to the insatiable sea.
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-05 21:46:57 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Thank you. How about the following example?
Look! There's a car factory over there. There must be some inside.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, 很不好, wrong
In order to use this construction, the context must make clear what the missing noun is.
Your example gives no idea of what the "some" are.
你找什么?What is it that you are looking for?

Try to find a clear way to say what you want.
"Why can I not say it THIS way? is a bad way to proceed

s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-04 21:47:30 UTC
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Mark Brader寫道:
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes.
Someone objects to it, saying, "It would make much more sense syntactically,
and idiomatically, as 'There’s a guy over there selling ice cream. Let’s get some!'."
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
Of course not.
Some what?
not cars, because there is only one inside
Detergent?, water?, Electrical connections? local people?

A question like this only makes sense if whatever is omitted is something which is clearly obvious

We are thirsty, we need some soft drinks. There is a convenience store over there. Shall we go and buy some?
Mark Brader
2021-03-04 22:54:31 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Look! There's a car wash over there. There must be some inside.
Could "some" be used naturally to mean "some cars" here?
Only in an established context of looking for cars.
Some what? not cars, because there is only one inside
That depends on the car wash.

Loading Image...
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "*Nature*, Mr. Allnutt, is what we are put in this
***@vex.net | world *to rise above*." -- The African Queen

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Ken Blake
2021-03-04 16:03:54 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
Yes, that's fine.
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-04 22:17:33 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
...

Perfectly natural.

When I was little, the local ice cream vendor was Uncle Marty, or that's
what his truck said. It would even have been natural to say, "Look,
there's Uncle Marty! Let's get some."
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-04 22:30:54 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
...
Perfectly natural.
When I was little, the local ice cream vendor was Uncle Marty, or that's
what his truck said. It would even have been natural to say, "Look,
there's Uncle Marty! Let's get some."
That, however, would have been an anaphoric island (Postal 1969),
rather than an anaphoric peninsula. The parade example is "Paul
is an orphan. He never knew them."
Ross Clark
2021-03-05 00:50:39 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
In the following sentence, is it natural to use "some" to mean
"some ice cream"?.
Look! There's an ice cream vendor over there. Let's buy some.
...
Perfectly natural.
When I was little, the local ice cream vendor was Uncle Marty, or that's
what his truck said. It would even have been natural to say, "Look,
there's Uncle Marty! Let's get some."
That, however, would have been an anaphoric island (Postal 1969),
rather than an anaphoric peninsula. The parade example is "Paul
is an orphan. He never knew them."
The "orphan" example and a number of others illustrating the fuzziness
of the concept (whence the need for "peninsulas" and so on) are here:

https://www.google.co.nz/books/edition/Models_of_Cognition/O60gLc8G58oC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=anaphoric+island&pg=PA83&printsec=frontcover
Jonathan Harston
2021-03-05 21:00:35 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
That, however, would have been an anaphoric island (Postal 1969),
rather than an anaphoric peninsula. The parade example is "Paul
is an orphan. He never knew them."
You've taught me a term I've been groping for for years. Too many times
somebody has said something where the only response I can give is
(for the above example) "them what?"/"them who?"
blah blah it blah blah...
"it"? It what? You've given me no subject, what's the it?

or
It is.
What is? It's what? What's what? ghah!! wtf is the subject and wtf is
the adjective??? You've just ejaculated nonsense!

jgh
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