Discussion:
Apart from . . .
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Yurui Liu
2019-11-03 02:34:29 UTC
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Hi,

Does the following sentence sound natural?

Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.

This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential" and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-03 03:45:50 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential" and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Why not drop the first clause completely? It doesn't say anything. And
"position" is fine on paper but perhaps a little formal for speech, even
in a job interview.

Maybe something like this:

"I'm looking for a challenge --- a job where I can not only use my
talents, but also develop them further."
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Yurui Liu
2019-11-03 06:27:30 UTC
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Richard Heathfield於 2019年11月3日星期日 UTC+8上午11時45分56秒寫道:
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential" and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Why not drop the first clause completely? It doesn't say anything. And
"position" is fine on paper but perhaps a little formal for speech, even
in a job interview.
I'm just wondering whether the definite expression "the job" can be
referred to by an indefinite "a position." If you don't like "position,"
please substitute it with something else.
Post by Richard Heathfield
"I'm looking for a challenge --- a job where I can not only use my
talents, but also develop them further."
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Janet
2019-11-03 12:42:09 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential" and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Why not drop the first clause completely?
I agree.
Post by Richard Heathfield
It doesn't say anything.
What it says to me is "I'm very attracted by the company car/leave
entitlement/pension plan, and by the way is the staff restaurant
subsidised? "



And
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
"position" is fine on paper but perhaps a little formal for speech, even
in a job interview.
I'm just wondering whether the definite expression "the job" can be
referred to by an indefinite "a position."
Cleaners apply for a job. Professionals apply for a position.

Mentioning "the benefits" ahead of everything else sounds as if
you're more interested in the perks than work/career development

If you don't like "position,"
Post by Richard Heathfield
please substitute it with something else.
"role".

Janet.
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-03 13:50:31 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential" and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Why not drop the first clause completely?
I agree.
Post by Richard Heathfield
It doesn't say anything.
What it says to me is "I'm very attracted by the company car/leave
entitlement/pension plan, and by the way is the staff restaurant
subsidised? "
I was trying very hard *not* to make that observation, but yes, you're
right.
Post by Janet
And
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
"position" is fine on paper but perhaps a little formal for speech, even
in a job interview.
I'm just wondering whether the definite expression "the job" can be
referred to by an indefinite "a position."
Cleaners apply for a job. Professionals apply for a position.
Mentioning "the benefits" ahead of everything else sounds as if
you're more interested in the perks than work/career development
Quite so. My alternative was designed to remove that whole subtext and
replace it with something more likely to have the desired effect.
Post by Janet
If you don't like "position,"
Post by Richard Heathfield
please substitute it with something else.
"role".
Right, although of course that raises the vexed questions of
italicisation and the circumflex. (Generally, I mean; not in a text-only
medium like Usenet.)

Pet peeve: "we are looking to recruit..."

These days, "looking to" has become all but ubiquitous in online
sitvacs. Heaven knows why.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-03 23:58:09 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential"
Far too natural. People quite often use "potential" unnecessarily in
that way, in my experience. It's also possible that the benefits aren't
yet "set in stone", in which case "potential" is necessary.

It's also tactless, as people have said, unless it's in response to
something about the benefits.
Post by Yurui Liu
and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Yes, the idea is that the candidate is looking for a job of that kind
and is hoping that the one they're interviewing for qualifies.
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2019-11-04 22:56:57 UTC
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Jerry Friedman於 2019年11月4日星期一 UTC+8上午7時58分13秒寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential"
Far too natural. People quite often use "potential" unnecessarily in
that way, in my experience. It's also possible that the benefits aren't
yet "set in stone", in which case "potential" is necessary.
It's also tactless, as people have said, unless it's in response to
something about the benefits.
Post by Yurui Liu
and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Yes, the idea is that the candidate is looking for a job of that kind
and is hoping that the one they're interviewing for qualifies.
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
by a following indefinite expression? Please consider the following:

The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.

Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-04 23:10:35 UTC
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On 04/11/2019 22:56, Yurui Liu wrote:

<snip>
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
In a sense, "the car" refers *forward* to "a car". "The car" is a
specific example of the soon-to-be-mentioned class of all cars cared for
by John.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-04 23:24:20 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2019年11月4日星期一 UTC+8上午7時58分13秒寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Hi,
Does the following sentence sound natural?
Apart from the potential benefits the job would offer, I'm looking for a position that is both challenging and rewarding.
This is supposed to be said during a job interview. I'm wondering whether
it's natural to use "potential"
Far too natural. People quite often use "potential" unnecessarily in
that way, in my experience. It's also possible that the benefits aren't
yet "set in stone", in which case "potential" is necessary.
It's also tactless, as people have said, unless it's in response to
something about the benefits.
Post by Yurui Liu
and the connection between "the job" and
"a position" is okay.
Yes, the idea is that the candidate is looking for a job of that kind
and is hoping that the one they're interviewing for qualifies.
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
As Richard said, "car" is the general class of which that car is an
example. But "his cars" or just "cars" would sound more natural to
me.

Here's one that's parallel to yours:

John asked for mint jelly on his cotelettes d'agneau à la
provençale. He seems to think you can't eat a lamb chop
without mint jelly.

The speaker says that John has a belief about lamb chops in general
that explains his request in regard to that lamb chop in particular.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-05 15:10:52 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
Very strange.
Post by Jerry Friedman
As Richard said, "car" is the general class of which that car is an
example. But "his cars" or just "cars" would sound more natural to
me.
John asked for mint jelly on his cotelettes d'agneau à la
provençale. He seems to think you can't eat a lamb chop
without mint jelly.
The speaker says that John has a belief about lamb chops in general
that explains his request in regard to that lamb chop in particular.
Whereas it's _roast leg of lamb_ (studded with garlic cloves) that you
can't eat without mint jelly.

Excellent example!
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-08 05:29:30 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
Very strange.
Post by Jerry Friedman
As Richard said, "car" is the general class of which that car is an
example. But "his cars" or just "cars" would sound more natural to
me.
John asked for mint jelly on his cotelettes d'agneau à la
provençale. He seems to think you can't eat a lamb chop
without mint jelly.
The speaker says that John has a belief about lamb chops in general
that explains his request in regard to that lamb chop in particular.
Whereas it's _roast leg of lamb_ (studded with garlic cloves) that you
can't eat without mint jelly.
Mm. The only way to improve that is to omit the mint jelly.

Well, rosemary might help.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Excellent example!
Thank you.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2019-11-08 17:06:44 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
Very strange.
Post by Jerry Friedman
As Richard said, "car" is the general class of which that car is an
example. But "his cars" or just "cars" would sound more natural to
me.
John asked for mint jelly on his cotelettes d'agneau à la
provençale. He seems to think you can't eat a lamb chop
without mint jelly.
The speaker says that John has a belief about lamb chops in general
that explains his request in regard to that lamb chop in particular.
Whereas it's _roast leg of lamb_ (studded with garlic cloves) that you
can't eat without mint jelly.
Mm. The only way to improve that is to omit the mint jelly.
Well, rosemary might help.
Yes, if she doesn't like mint jelly.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2019-11-05 04:08:13 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
No. The first sentence is about a specific car; the second one is
general, about any car or cars that John takes care of.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Truth speak from any chair."
***@vex.net -- Charlie Chan at the Wax Museum
Yurui Liu
2019-11-08 05:01:58 UTC
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Mark Brader於 2019年11月5日星期二 UTC+8下午12時08分20秒寫道:
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
No. The first sentence is about a specific car; the second one is
general, about any car or cars that John takes care of.
I'm curious as to why that kind of reasoning cannot extend to the
example in the original post. Any crucial difference?
Post by Mark Brader
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Truth speak from any chair."
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-08 05:30:48 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader於 2019年11月5日星期二 UTC+8下午12時08分20秒寫道:
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
No. The first sentence is about a specific car; the second one is
general, about any car or cars that John takes care of.
I'm curious as to why that kind of reasoning cannot extend to the
example in the original post. Any crucial difference?
I said it could extend to the original example (about the challenging
job with the subsidized cafeteria), and I don't see that anyone said it
couldn't.
--
Jerry Friedman
Yurui Liu
2019-11-08 05:54:39 UTC
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Jerry Friedman於 2019年11月8日星期五 UTC+8下午1時30分51秒寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader於 2019年11月5日星期二 UTC+8下午12時08分20秒寫道:
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
No. The first sentence is about a specific car; the second one is
general, about any car or cars that John takes care of.
I'm curious as to why that kind of reasoning cannot extend to the
example in the original post. Any crucial difference?
I said it could extend to the original example (about the challenging
job with the subsidized cafeteria), and I don't see that anyone said it
couldn't.
I should have asked why the definite expression can be referred to by
a following indefinite expression in the original example, but not
in the car example.
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-08 18:11:46 UTC
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Post by Yurui Liu
Jerry Friedman於 2019年11月8日星期五 UTC+8下午1時30分51秒寫道:
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yurui Liu
Mark Brader於 2019年11月5日星期二 UTC+8下午12時08分20秒寫道:
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Yurui Liu
Is it normally possible for a definite expression to be referred to
The car looks new. Everyone thinks John takes good care of a car.
Could "a car" refer back to "the car"?
No. The first sentence is about a specific car; the second one is
general, about any car or cars that John takes care of.
I'm curious as to why that kind of reasoning cannot extend to the
example in the original post. Any crucial difference?
I said it could extend to the original example (about the challenging
job with the subsidized cafeteria), and I don't see that anyone said it
couldn't.
I should have asked why the definite expression can be referred to by
a following indefinite expression in the original example, but not
in the car example.
I didn't say it couldn't; I just said "cars" (also indefinite) or
"his cars" would sound more natural to me. I'll specify that "a
car" in that sentence could sound a bit affected to me, but not
ungrammatical.

I'm not sure why it wouldn't sound natural. Maybe because the evidence
for saying he knows car care would have to come from his care for more
than one car.
--
Jerry Friedman
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