Discussion:
metal spork for turkey soup
(too old to reply)
bruce bowser
2021-11-29 15:09:19 UTC
Permalink
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?
lar3ryca
2021-11-29 15:52:43 UTC
Permalink
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?
I prefer 'fpoon'.
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-01 09:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-01 15:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."

Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
Adam Funk
2021-12-01 17:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks
Snidely
2021-12-01 21:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
This doesn't have anything to do with the 1812 Overture, and the line
didn't stop at St Helena. On the other hand, I think the aluminum
article in question wasn't a spork, but something that looks a bit more
... ceremonial, and probably wasn't used much after the Emperor's visit
to Sedan. He was deposed after said visit, which shows that doing what
the public wants can backfire.

/dps
--
Trust, but verify.
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 09:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oops, not the most famous Napoleon but #3, & just "reputed":

French chemist Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville announced an
industrial method of aluminium production in 1854 at the Paris
Academy of Sciences.[48] Aluminium chloride could be reduced by
sodium, a metal more convenient and less expensive than potassium
used by Wöhler.[49] Deville was able to produce an ingot of the
metal.[50] Napoleon III of France promised Deville an unlimited
subsidy for aluminium research; in total, Deville used 36,000 French
francs—20 times the annual income of an ordinary family.[51]
Napoleon's interest in aluminium lay in its potential military use:
he wished weapons, helmets, armor, and other equipment for the
French army could be made of the new light, shiny metal.[51] While
the metal was still not displayed to the public, Napoleon is reputed
to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given
aluminium utensils while others made do with gold.[45]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_industrial_production>
--
A firm rule must be imposed upon our nation before it destroys
itself. The United States needs some theology and geometry, some taste
and decency. I suspect that we are teetering on the edge of the abyss.
---Ignatius J Reilly
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 16:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.

The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
Post by Adam Funk
French chemist Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville announced an
industrial method of aluminium production in 1854 at the Paris
Academy of Sciences.[48] Aluminium chloride could be reduced by
sodium, a metal more convenient and less expensive than potassium
used by Wöhler.[49] Deville was able to produce an ingot of the
metal.[50] Napoleon III of France promised Deville an unlimited
subsidy for aluminium research; in total, Deville used 36,000 French
francs—20 times the annual income of an ordinary family.[51]
he wished weapons, helmets, armor, and other equipment for the
French army could be made of the new light, shiny metal.[51] While
the metal was still not displayed to the public, Napoleon is reputed
to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given
aluminium utensils while others made do with gold.[45]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_industrial_production>
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 19:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
French chemist Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville announced an
industrial method of aluminium production in 1854 at the Paris
Academy of Sciences.[48] Aluminium chloride could be reduced by
sodium, a metal more convenient and less expensive than potassium
used by Wöhler.[49] Deville was able to produce an ingot of the
metal.[50] Napoleon III of France promised Deville an unlimited
subsidy for aluminium research; in total, Deville used 36,000 French
francs—20 times the annual income of an ordinary family.[51]
he wished weapons, helmets, armor, and other equipment for the
French army could be made of the new light, shiny metal.[51] While
the metal was still not displayed to the public, Napoleon is reputed
to have held a banquet where the most honored guests were given
aluminium utensils while others made do with gold.[45]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aluminium#Early_industrial_production>
--
He [Nixon] is the president of every place in this country which
does not have a bookstore. ---Murray Kempton
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-02 22:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>

So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 22:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>
So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.

(Some stamps showed the feats of specific astronauts but without
portraits or names, the first being John Glenn's orbital flight. It was
not placed on sale until he had safely returned from space -- and had
been prepared, printed, and distributed in total secrecy.)

Paging through the Scott Catalogue of Classic Postage Stamps
(complete listings 1840-1940, to 1952 for Commonwealth countries)
I didn't find any French stamp for the Little Colonel -- and he isn't in
that list to this day! (Under either N or B.)
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-03 00:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.
Hmm. Did the stamp depict Daniel Radcliffe, or Harry Potter?

A stamp of David Prowse/Darth Vader in full costume would muddy the
waters even more.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 13:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Fewer and fewer countries prohibit the depiction of living people
on their stamps. The US changed that rule a number of years ago,
and the very first living person explicitly depicted was Daniel Radcliffe.
There seem not to have been any since that Harry Potter Movies set.
Hmm. Did the stamp depict Daniel Radcliffe, or Harry Potter?
The character(s), but the faces of all the actors are clearly recognizable.

They did a set in 1989 to honor the year of the greatest movies, which
depicted the posters of GWTW, Wizard of Oz, Stagecoach, and one other,
which happened not to depict characters of any still-living actors.
A stamp of David Prowse/Darth Vader in full costume would muddy the
waters even more.
Have you seen the UK set for *One Man's Army*? About a dozen portraits.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-03 09:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>
Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.
Post by J. J. Lodder
So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
Jan
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Adam Funk
2021-12-03 10:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>
Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.
I assume she's on your mind from the ceremony a few days ago. I
noticed that they are leaving her remains in Monaco but put in the
Panthéon a coffin containing soil from various places where she'd
lived --- is that a common way of doing it?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
Jan
--
a rose that's not from anywhere that you would know or I would care
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-03 11:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle
touring to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_Fran
ce>
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.
I assume she's on your mind from the ceremony a few days ago. I
noticed that they are leaving her remains in Monaco but put in the
Panthéon a coffin containing soil from various places where she'd
lived --- is that a common way of doing it?
No, it is a recent innovation.
Twenty years ago they had a row about it.
Someone had the bright idea that there really had to be
some more women bodily there, in a fit of faux feminisme.
Someone had the idea that George Sand was just the one they wanted.

Now George Sand was burried where she had wanted to be,
close to the house where she had lived. [1]
Protest were of no avail, they dug her up and carried her away.
(the whole village, I don't know is there was still family alive,
some literary greats if memory serves)
In France you are effectively state property.

BTW, Her house is still there, in its original state,
and it can be visited.
It looks as if Chopin could walk in any moment
to play a nocturne on his own piano,

Jan

[1] By analogy: image some British government official
deciding the have some Brontes dug up in Haworth
as extra feminine filler material for Westminster Abbey.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-03 12:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle
touring to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_Fran
ce>
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.
I assume she's on your mind from the ceremony a few days ago. I
noticed that they are leaving her remains in Monaco but put in the
Panthéon a coffin containing soil from various places where she'd
lived --- is that a common way of doing it?
No, it is a recent innovation.
Yes, but Monaco isn't France. They could dig up anyonz they felt like
if they were buried in France.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Twenty years ago they had a row about it.
Someone had the bright idea that there really had to be
some more women bodily there, in a fit of faux feminisme.
Someone had the idea that George Sand was just the one they wanted.
Now George Sand was burried where she had wanted to be,
close to the house where she had lived. [1]
Protest were of no avail, they dug her up and carried her away.
(the whole village, I don't know is there was still family alive,
some literary greats if memory serves)
In France you are effectively state property.
BTW, Her house is still there, in its original state,
and it can be visited.
It looks as if Chopin could walk in any moment
to play a nocturne on his own piano,
Jan
[1] By analogy: image some British government official
deciding the have some Brontes dug up in Haworth
as extra feminine filler material for Westminster Abbey.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-03 10:22:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term
for the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
The titanium stuff is mainly marketed for backpacking & cycle touring
to save weight.
Ah. 50+ years ago there was aluminum.
Yup, and that was good enough for Napoleon.
Seems unlikely, since the capstone of the Washington Monument
(completed 1885) is a tiny pyramid of aluminum, which at the time
was rather more precious than gold.
Oh -- the one who got onto the stamps.
The first French stamps depicted Ceres (1849), then in 1850
President Louis Napoleon, in 1852 Emperor Napoleon III. They
went to allegories in 1870 and a living ruler didn't appear on
stamps until Pétain a long time later (and not since).
I didn't know any of that, but I can see why they stopped doing it
there.
They started a wholly new republic in 1945,
with new habits. (the IVth)
There is a list of all persons who have appeared on French stamps at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_the_postage_stamps_of_France>
Pierre Bérégovoy is an interesting (and surprising) one: much more
popular after he committed suicide than he was before. It's only a
matter of time before Joséphine Baker is there. In fact I'm surprised
she isn't there already. Maybe she is, but I haven't found her. She is
on an American stamp, however.
Checking at https://www.timbres-de-france.com/ I see that there was a
stamp in her honour in 1994. I'll add her to the wikiparticle.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
So there is a De Gaulle stamp,
but it didn't appear until after his death,
and not while he was head of state of his own Vth republic.
Jan
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-01 17:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
That's what "silverware" means in the UK.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Seems like titanium dinnerware would be too lightweight to have
a comfortable "hand feel." We're accustomed to stainless steel
(and, occasionally, silver).
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Tony Cooper
2021-12-01 17:39:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
"flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
utensils, and stainless steel utensils.

No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
even if the items being described are cheap stainless.

In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
utensils.

BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.

We Americans manage to ignore the obstacles that confuse the Dutch.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 09:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
"flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
utensils, and stainless steel utensils.
No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
even if the items being described are cheap stainless.
In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
utensils.
I wouldn't be *confused* by that, but it does sound really weird to
me.
Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
sauce.
Post by Tony Cooper
We Americans manage to ignore the obstacles that confuse the Dutch.
--
In general, I find that calligraphers are just about the nicest people
I've ever met. ---Donald Knuth
Quinn C
2021-12-02 13:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
"flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
utensils, and stainless steel utensils.
No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
even if the items being described are cheap stainless.
In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
utensils.
I wouldn't be *confused* by that, but it does sound really weird to
me.
Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
sauce.
Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
bit of a rim.)

Some cheap cutlery is actual literal hollowware. That's when you try to
lift it and your hand ends up a meter above the table because it weighs
nothing.
--
Canada is not the United States. We can't just thump the table
and demand things, and expect everyone to fall in line. We have
to work with other people.
-- Jeffrey Lewis
Adam Funk
2021-12-03 09:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
You may consider it an abuse, but we don't. "Silverware" is a
commonly used term in the US to describe what is properly called
"flatware", and includes sterling silver utensils, silver plate
utensils, and stainless steel utensils.
No one writing "silverware" would be corrected for using that term
even if the items being described are cheap stainless.
In fact, in places that supply plastic utensils, you would not confuse
anyone by asking where the "silverware" was if you needed those
utensils.
I wouldn't be *confused* by that, but it does sound really weird to
me.
Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
sauce.
Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
bit of a rim.)
If it has a rim, you can pedantically argue that the item is concave.
Post by Quinn C
Some cheap cutlery is actual literal hollowware. That's when you try to
lift it and your hand ends up a meter above the table because it weighs
nothing.
Good for backpacking!
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. ---Robert R. Coveyou
Quinn C
2021-12-03 18:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Tony Cooper
BTW...the US term for serving bowls and other tableware items (except
glassware) that are not eating utensils are properly called
"holloware"...even if they are flat plates that are not hollow.
Even "flat plates" are (almost always) slightly concave to corral the
sauce.
Sure, but that's not distinguishing serving plates from eating plates.
If anything, serving plates are more often completely flat (if with a
bit of a rim.)
If it has a rim, you can pedantically argue that the item is concave.
You say pedantically, I say "technically". I wouldn't use concave/convex
in everyday contexts unless the item is curved over most of its extent.
--
If someone has a penis (or we think they have a penis) we use
he/him/his pronouns and treat them like a boy/man. If someone
has a vagina (or we think they have a vagina) we use she/her/
hers pronouns and treat them like a girl/woman.
See what I did there? -- Kyl Myers
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-01 17:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
It's "an ordinary-language term" for... - where he lives.
--
Sam Plusnet
charles
2021-12-01 17:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
Jan
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-01 20:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.

"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
charles
2021-12-01 21:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone
else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are at
least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes,
we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and
comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
agreed, but "siverware" should only be used for silver.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Richard Heathfield
2021-12-01 21:47:45 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
agreed, but "siverware" should only be used for silver.
Or possibly a mixture of silicon, vanadium, and erbium.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Quinn C
2021-12-01 22:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?

Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
--
A "moderate Republican" now is a far-right Republican who
publicly laments it.
-- John Fugelsang (2021)
bruce bowser
2021-12-01 22:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
maybe, the same that you'd call a tape recorder. Not in existance anymore.
Paul Wolff
2021-12-01 23:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
That is a fair point. In BrE usage, I think that cutlery encompasses all
those hand-held devices used at table to transfer food from plate to
mouth. I hope "at table" doesn't need translation. I hear that there are
some people today who don't believe in communal mealtimes at all.

Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.

'Cutlery' isn't synonymous with 'silver'. We should admit here that
different usages abound. My own prejudice is towards 'silver' = cutlery
of solid (if alloyed) silver, or silver plate. I wouldn't dignify any
baser metal with the name.

From Tony Cooper, I infer that AmE flatware = BrE cutlery.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
2021-12-02 01:03:24 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 23:06:21 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
That is a fair point. In BrE usage, I think that cutlery encompasses all
those hand-held devices used at table to transfer food from plate to
mouth. I hope "at table" doesn't need translation. I hear that there are
some people today who don't believe in communal mealtimes at all.
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
'Cutlery' isn't synonymous with 'silver'. We should admit here that
different usages abound. My own prejudice is towards 'silver' = cutlery
of solid (if alloyed) silver, or silver plate. I wouldn't dignify any
baser metal with the name.
From Tony Cooper, I infer that AmE flatware = BrE cutlery.
Yes, but don't expect any American you run into to use that term.
Where you might see/hear it is at a store that has an area where what
we usually call "silverware" is sold. Or, by someone who is involved
with the buying or selling of that type of product. Or on the list of
items the bride and groom have suggested that you get them as a
wedding gift.*

If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.

The above from an American's perspective.

*Dunno if that is the practice in other countries. Here, when a
couple announces their wedding, they will register at several stores.
They pick out items that they would like and list them.

If I go to - say - Macy's to buy a wedding present for a couple, the
store has that list. If I buy them a toaster, the list shows that
this item has been purchased so others will not also buy a toaster.
The list will include the silverware/dinnerware/glassware pattern so I
can - for example - buy two place settings of their china. Others may
add more place settings.

With fewer couple actually getting married, I suppose the practice is
not as common today.

The above is from my own experience, and not indicative of everyone
else's experience.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 15:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 16:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
<https://xkcd.com/1641/>
--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
---Hunter S Thompson
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 16:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
<https://xkcd.com/1641/>
A hearty LOL!
Post by Adam Funk
--
The Nixon I remembered was absolutely humorless; I couldn't imagine
him laughing at anything except maybe a paraplegic who wanted to vote
Democratic but couldn't quite reach the lever on the voting machine.
---Hunter S Thompson
Does that help with the scapegoat question?
Quinn C
2021-12-02 18:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
What are the things that come in eights where you live?

I grew up with sets of plates, cup, but also utensils (possibly a term
that's more common here under the influence of French) coming in six or
twelve in Germany, and my impression is that it's the same here in
Canada, although the last set I bought was a set of four - I assumed
that to be a concession to the rising number of small households.

In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky, the usual sets
are of five.

A comedian on TV was telling how when he moved out from his parents, he
bought one plate, one knife and one fork, because, why would he need
more than that. He only later was diagnosed with Aspergers.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Paul Wolff
2021-12-02 21:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky,
Curious how that sort of irrational superstition survives. Why do the
Chinese think red is a lucky colour? Or is there something rational in
any of it, for rational people? I can't see how.

The ancient Romans thought odd numbers more favourable. I do know that
their months were originally 29 or 31 days long. They had the year as
355 days, made up of 4 x 31 days plus 8 x 29 days, except that gives
356, which is unlucky, so February was reduced to 28. Perhaps one
unlucky month was better than a whole unlucky year. And as February was
the year end, its purificatory rituals may have redeemed it.

And before anyone asks: they knew that 355 needed to be corrected, so
they added another month, the Intercalaris, every now and again. It was
all to do with the moon, with correction according to the sun. OK? The
verb 'calare', whence calendar, was to do with the new moon, I've been
told. And considering that 'moon' and 'month' are somewhat related, we
aren't that much smarter, really.
--
Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 22:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
What are the things that come in eights where you live?
Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
Post by Quinn C
I grew up with sets of plates, cup, but also utensils (possibly a term
that's more common here under the influence of French) coming in six or
twelve in Germany, and my impression is that it's the same here in
Canada, although the last set I bought was a set of four - I assumed
that to be a concession to the rising number of small households.
In Japan, where even numbers are considered less lucky, the usual sets
are of five.
A comedian on TV was telling how when he moved out from his parents, he
bought one plate, one knife and one fork, because, why would he need
more than that. He only later was diagnosed with Aspergers.
Because he made jokes about being friendless?
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 00:34:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:38:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
What are the things that come in eights where you live?
Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
A "place setting" is a selection of items for one person's needs. The
number of pieces depends on the maker and the pattern. Five items is
common for china items (but not the only number of items) place
setting.

A common combination for a place setting is a dinner plate, a bread
plate, a salad plate or bowl, a cup, and a saucer.

A "set" is multiple place settings.

Fine china, at most high-end stores, can be ordered by the place
setting or in sets (usually referred to as a "Service for X) of -
usually - four, eight, or twelve settings and usually includes
non-personal items like a sugar bowl and creamer, serving bowls, etc.

We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
replacement items for chipped and broken items.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Snidely
2021-12-03 01:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
replacement items for chipped and broken items.
That's a nice pattern, from what I can see. Your teacups have a slight
flare? Did you get the teapot, and is it the round one or the
rectangular one?

/dps
--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 03:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Tony Cooper
We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
replacement items for chipped and broken items.
That's a nice pattern, from what I can see. Your teacups have a slight
flare? Did you get the teapot, and is it the round one or the
rectangular one?
Yes: this one:

https://www.replacements.com/china-royal-doulton-rondelay-concord-shape-teapot-and-lid/p/5625221

The rest of the service is in the sideboard in padded sleeves, but the
teapot, sugar, and creamer are in use and kept in the kitchen cabinet.
Not the cups, though.

Replacements Ltd has a lot of Rondelay items still available. I broke
the creamer several years ago, and bought a replacement from them.

The cups do have a flare.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 13:28:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
We bought a service for six at Harrods (Royal Daulton "Rondelay") when
we were in London in 1969. At the time, considering shipping cost and
the exchange rate, it was a better deal than buying the same set in
the US. We later added a six more place settings and a few
replacement items for chipped and broken items.
That's a nice pattern, from what I can see. Your teacups have a slight
flare? Did you get the teapot, and is it the round one or the
rectangular one?
https://www.replacements.com/china-royal-doulton-rondelay-concord-shape-teapot-and-lid/p/5625221
The rest of the service is in the sideboard in padded sleeves, but the
teapot, sugar, and creamer are in use and kept in the kitchen cabinet.
Not the cups, though.
Replacements Ltd has a lot of Rondelay items still available. I broke
the creamer several years ago, and bought a replacement from them.
The cups do have a flare.
The owners have flair.
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-03 20:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
The cups do have a flare.
The owners have flair.
Nicely put.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 16:13:25 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you seen
this?
<URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>
I did see, and read that, a few days ago. Our toaster is a bare-bones
cheapie that doesn't do a particularly good job of toasting, but the
Sunbeam in that article sells - used! - for an average of $130. I'm
not that demanding of proper toast.

There is another thread on "Pet Peeves". One of mine is restaurants
that serve toast with breakfast orders but present the toast
unbuttered with little packets of frozen butter. Toast *must* be
buttered when it's hot.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 16:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you seen
this?
<URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>
I did see, and read that, a few days ago. Our toaster is a bare-bones
cheapie that doesn't do a particularly good job of toasting, but the
Sunbeam in that article sells - used! - for an average of $130. I'm
not that demanding of proper toast.
There is another thread on "Pet Peeves". One of mine is restaurants
that serve toast with breakfast orders but present the toast
unbuttered with little packets of frozen butter. Toast *must* be
buttered when it's hot.
Corollary: toast must be _served_ when it is hot.

When I stayed a few nights at a B&B behind the BM, I had the option of either
a "full English breakfast" or "tea and toast." Having just experienced a "full Irish
breakfast" on the Aer Lingus plane back from Dublin (and anyway I wasn't
in the habit of eating anything early in the morning), I wasn't interested in
risking the former, so I had "tea and toast." They brought a nice pot of tea --
and a toast rack with at least six, or maybe it was eight, slices of toast (my
mind's tongue makes it white bread) held vertically and well separated so
that they could thoroughly dry out on both sides.

All I had heard about English "cuisine" was well confirmed during that visit.
Fortunately I found an Indian buffet restaurant a block or so in another
direction (possibly in the direction of the West End theatres, where that
evening I saw a pre-Broadway tryout of *Kiss of the Spider Woman* with
Chita Rivera).
Peter Moylan
2021-12-04 01:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you seen
this?
<URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>
I did see, and read that, a few days ago. Our toaster is a bare-bones
cheapie that doesn't do a particularly good job of toasting, but the
Sunbeam in that article sells - used! - for an average of $130. I'm
not that demanding of proper toast.
There is another thread on "Pet Peeves". One of mine is restaurants
that serve toast with breakfast orders but present the toast
unbuttered with little packets of frozen butter. Toast *must* be
buttered when it's hot.
At that sort of hotel I leave the toast uneaten. Cold toast is bleah.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-12-04 12:18:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 12:14:59 +1100
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Speaking of buying used stuff for handling comestibles, have you
seen this?
<URL:https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-toaster-t20-t35-vista>
I did see, and read that, a few days ago. Our toaster is a
bare-bones cheapie that doesn't do a particularly good job of
toasting, but the Sunbeam in that article sells - used! - for an
average of $130. I'm not that demanding of proper toast.
There is another thread on "Pet Peeves". One of mine is restaurants
that serve toast with breakfast orders but present the toast
unbuttered with little packets of frozen butter. Toast *must* be
buttered when it's hot.
IAWTP
Post by Peter Moylan
At that sort of hotel I leave the toast uneaten. Cold toast is bleah.
Yet is served a rack, the main purpose of which seems to allow the
toast to go cold before you've eaten 1 slice. Feh.
Post by Peter Moylan
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 01:28:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:04:32 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that holds
all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak knives,
which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else comes
in eights)?
What are the things that come in eights where you live?
Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
So I went on the web site of the Hudson Bay Company, as a representative
of tradition, and checked out some of their dinnerware and flatware
sets. Putting aside the real expensive stuff that is priced per setting,
and you name any number you like, the overwhelming majority of
pre-packaged sets is now for 4 places. But there are some for 6. It
could be that those come from Europe and aren't adapted for the market.
I didn't see sets for 8 or 12 places. I guess you're expected to buy two
or three sets of four.
Interesting what certain words connote. I see PTD's use of "china"
and think he's referring to that "real expensive stuff that is priced
per setting".

You see it and read it as "dinnerware". That includes those boxed
sets of everyday stuff.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 13:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:04:32 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
What are the things that come in eights where you live?
Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
So I went on the web site of the Hudson Bay Company, as a representative
of tradition, and checked out some of their dinnerware and flatware
sets. Putting aside the real expensive stuff that is priced per setting,
and you name any number you like, the overwhelming majority of
pre-packaged sets is now for 4 places. But there are some for 6. It
could be that those come from Europe and aren't adapted for the market.
I didn't see sets for 8 or 12 places. I guess you're expected to buy two
or three sets of four.
Interesting what certain words connote. I see PTD's use of "china"
and think he's referring to that "real expensive stuff that is priced
per setting".
You see it and read it as "dinnerware". That includes those boxed
sets of everyday stuff.
"Dinnerware" is probably the word on the boxes of 16 pieces.

"Chinaware" might be confined to the good stuff.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 13:22:55 UTC
Permalink
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-03 20:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I am a little less scrupulous if I am the only person who will use the
thing that might get 'contaminated'.
If it is shared, or might be shared with others, I go the extra mile.
--
Sam Plusnet
lar3ryca
2021-12-03 20:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.

So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
--
It must be jelly, 'cause jam don't shake like that."
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 20:43:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
--
It must be jelly, 'cause jam don't shake like that."
In my yout', they were all "jelly" even though some of the jars said "jam"
and some said "preserves." ("Marmalade" didn't count as "jelly..") (I once
made the mistake of reading a book by Steve Allen (the so-called comedian
who invented The Tonight Show) who devoted a chapter to castigating a
waiter at a fancy Southern hotel who did not know what "marmalade" was.
That prompted me to check the Dictionary of American Regional English,
which shows that "marmalade" is used in the Northeast and Midwest but
not in the South. (I don't remember what it had for western areas.)
Quinn C
2021-12-03 23:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
--
It must be jelly, 'cause jam don't shake like that."
In my yout', they were all "jelly" even though some of the jars said "jam"
and some said "preserves." ("Marmalade" didn't count as "jelly..") (I once
made the mistake of reading a book by Steve Allen (the so-called comedian
who invented The Tonight Show) who devoted a chapter to castigating a
waiter at a fancy Southern hotel who did not know what "marmalade" was.
That prompted me to check the Dictionary of American Regional English,
which shows that "marmalade" is used in the Northeast and Midwest but
not in the South. (I don't remember what it had for western areas.)
Anyway, AIUI, in "PB & jelly sandwich" as well as "jelly donut", the
distinction is neutralized even for people who distinguish jam from
jelly on its own.

My favorite jelly donuts (in Germany) contain "plum butter".
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter Moylan
2021-12-04 01:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Paul Wolff
2021-12-04 10:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me wonder.
To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all the pulp in it,
while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
--
Paul
Quinn C
2021-12-04 15:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because
I find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the
knife in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three
knives in the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter
gets into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing
both mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me
wonder. To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all
the pulp in it, while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
you mean you can afford to shop in "farm shops"?
I don't know what exactly a "farm shop" is, but our "farmers markets"
offer better quality at a similar price to supermarket items. Speaking
of the fresh stuff. There's one not far from my home that's open 24h
during the summer.
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
bruce bowser
2021-12-04 17:19:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by lar3ryca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because
I find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the
knife in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three
knives in the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter
gets into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing
both mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me
wonder. To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all
the pulp in it, while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
you mean you can afford to shop in "farm shops"?
I don't know what exactly a "farm shop" is, but our "farmers markets"
offer better quality at a similar price to supermarket items. Speaking
of the fresh stuff. There's one not far from my home that's open 24h
during the summer.
I noticed that even some government buildings open up their parking lots for those farmer and flea markets. I've only frequented there for coffee and maybe pastries if they have them.
Paul Wolff
2021-12-04 20:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 7:22:57 AM UTC-6, Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because
I find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the
knife in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three
knives in the process.
That seems a bit ADD. I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter
gets into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing
both mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I probably knew this at one time, but the jam/jelly thing makes me
wonder. To this Canadian, jam is crushed or shredded fruit, having all
the pulp in it, while jelly is the juice only.
So what do you call the clear, jiggly fruit spread?
To an Australian, the clear stuff is also jam, and jelly is a dessert.
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
you mean you can afford to shop in "farm shops"?
That's a fair question, and the answer is yes, because (a) the weekly
food bill for two, erm, elderly persons is not high - I have just bought
cod-and-chips medium portions for one, from one of our nearby chippies,
and we shall share it for supper any moment now - (b) we can't get
better bread or cheese from the big chain supermarkets, except
sourdoughs, but the farm shops also sell a great range of breadmaking
flours (try Wessex Mill), so usually I buy the flour and bake our own
loaves) - and (c) without the local shops our overall standard of living
in the village would fall; they employ local people and provide all
sorts of unexpected things we can't get anywhere else.

Consider yourself invited to come over and see what they have to offer.
--
Paul
Anders D. Nygaard
2021-12-05 09:58:45 UTC
Permalink
[jam and jelly]
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
you mean you can afford to shop in "farm shops"?
I don't know about Paul, but I certainly can't. Not that I'd know what
to do with even a single farm.

/Anders, Denmark
Quinn C
2021-12-05 15:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
[jam and jelly]
Yet in my experience, there are some clear jellies sold in jam-jars.
Bramble jelly (the fruit is blackberries) is for spreading on bread,
while redcurrant jelly and mint jelly are mainly for accompanying roast
meats in small quantities. Maybe apple jelly too. And rose-hip jelly?
There's probably a huge range of jams and jellies on the craft shelves
in farm shops now, but I'm not usually encouraged to linger over those
when we're shopping.
you mean you can afford to shop in "farm shops"?
I don't know about Paul, but I certainly can't. Not that I'd know what
to do with even a single farm.
The perfect Christmas gift for a special friend. Just have the farm
gift-wrapped and delivered to their home with a personal message.
That'd be an ant farm, then.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Quinn C
2021-12-03 23:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD.
I guess you mean OCD. Either way, it's not ideal to use clinical
diagnoses so lightly, I think just "obsessive" will do fine.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I said "up to 3". 2 is more common. And it may play a role that I use a
jar of mustard for many months. Once it's almost empty, I get less
fussy. The worry is not about cross-contamination per se, but about the
introduction of molds and such.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2021-12-04 00:51:30 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 18:36:11 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That aside, I like to have several pieces of each to myself, because I
find it makes the washing more efficient. I don't like to wash the knife
in the middle of making a sandwich, so I may use up to three knives in
the process.
That seems a bit ADD.
I guess you mean OCD. Either way, it's not ideal to use clinical
diagnoses so lightly, I think just "obsessive" will do fine.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't mind if a tiny bit of peanut butter gets
into the jam ("jelly" in the standard phrase), and if I'm doing both
mayonnaise and mustard on a ham & cheese, I can wipe the knife
clean on the bread face. And then another one to cut?
I said "up to 3". 2 is more common. And it may play a role that I use a
jar of mustard for many months. Once it's almost empty, I get less
fussy. The worry is not about cross-contamination per se, but about the
introduction of molds and such.
I immediately rinse off a knife that was used to spread mustard.
Mustard dries quickly and becomes extremely difficult to remove from
knife.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-03 21:12:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
If an American refers to "cutlery", I would assume they are referring
to all of the types of knives used in the kitchen for preparing food.
A bread kife, a paring knife, and meat knife are "cutlery", but a
serving fork or spoon is not. All "cutlery" is stainless steel.
Silver or silver plate items just don't cut it.
Does the giant fork paired with the carving knife get to be honorary
cutlery? Especially if there's a slot for it in the wooden block that
holds all the non-tableware knives (but sometimes also the steak
knives, which unaccountably come in sets of six when everything else
comes in eights)?
What are the things that come in eights where you live?
Place settings -- china and silver. Very elaborate ones come in twelves,
starter sets at the discount stores in fours.
So I went on the web site of the Hudson Bay Company, as a representative
of tradition, and checked out some of their dinnerware and flatware
sets. Putting aside the real expensive stuff that is priced per setting,
and you name any number you like, the overwhelming majority of
pre-packaged sets is now for 4 places. But there are some for 6. It
could be that those come from Europe and aren't adapted for the market.
I didn't see sets for 8 or 12 places. I guess you're expected to buy two
or three sets of four.
I noticed one flatware set for 10 people.
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]

The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,

Jan

[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
Jerry Friedman
2021-12-04 00:16:04 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 2:28:04 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2021-12-04 01:31:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
First, Jan's referring to "poor quality" antique silver, and, second,
he's referring to the European market. Anything that is of"Poor
quality" is not going to have value.

But, old sterling does have value in the US. There are several
companies that buy sterling silverware pieces for re-sale to people
who have a set but are either missing some pieces or are adding pieces
and want to add the same maker and pattern.

Replacements, Ltd

https://www.replacements.com/silver/brands/a?rplSrc

is one I've dealt with. Naturally, the prices they pay are set to
allow them to make a profit when they sell them, and they have to
invest in items that may not sell for quite along time.

Also, sterling silver spoons and forks are re-fashioned into jewelry
and decorative items. As an example, these are earrings made from
silver* spoon handles:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/201817393522

My daughter has a similar pair that she made from spoons I gave her.
A third spoon was made into a dangle for a silver chain and worn as a
necklace. There are many web pages of this type of jewelry and decor
items like wind chimes.

*This pair is made from a Wm Rogers silver plate spoons. It was
easiest example I could find.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Jerry Friedman
2021-12-04 14:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
First, Jan's referring to "poor quality" antique silver,
First he he said old silverware in general has little value beyond
the metal. Then he said poor-quality tableware is even less valuable.
Post by Tony Cooper
and, second,
he's referring to the European market.
That's why I suggested selling decent-quality old Dutch silverware
on the American market.
Post by Tony Cooper
Anything that is of"Poor
quality" is not going to have value.
But that's not what I was talking about.

(Incidentally, the bit of /Storage Wars/ that I saw included someone
redecorating an old, warped pool table and selling it to a college
fraternity for something close to $2000. The bros neglected to check
whether a ball would hold still on it. Whether the table "has value" or
not, it inspired my quotation from Barnum--although it's also possible
that that transaction was staged.)
Post by Tony Cooper
But, old sterling does have value in the US. There are several
companies that buy sterling silverware pieces for re-sale to people
who have a set but are either missing some pieces or are adding pieces
and want to add the same maker and pattern.
...

You'd mentioned that in an earlier post.
Post by Tony Cooper
Also, sterling silver spoons and forks are re-fashioned into jewelry
and decorative items. As an example, these are earrings made from
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201817393522
...

I didn't know that.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2021-12-04 15:17:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 06:36:38 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:16:04 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S.
...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
First, Jan's referring to "poor quality" antique silver,
First he he said old silverware in general has little value beyond
the metal. Then he said poor-quality tableware is even less valuable.
Post by Tony Cooper
and, second,
he's referring to the European market.
That's why I suggested selling decent-quality old Dutch silverware
on the American market.
Why does he assume that there is no market for antique silvereware in
the European market? I don't think that collecting or valuing antique
items is a particularly American thing.
...

Don't ask me. You can see above that he said it was out of fashion.
In a later post he said there was such a thing as really valuable antique
silverware in the Netherlands.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
But, old sterling does have value in the US. There are several
companies that buy sterling silverware pieces for re-sale to people
who have a set but are either missing some pieces or are adding pieces
and want to add the same maker and pattern.
...
You'd mentioned that in an earlier post.
Actually, I mentioned sources that buy/sell replacements for fine
china patterns, not silverware. Replacements, Ltd buys/sells both
fine china and silverware.
...

I made a leap of the imagination and assumed that would be true.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2021-12-04 15:22:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 06:36:38 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
Also, sterling silver spoons and forks are re-fashioned into jewelry
and decorative items. As an example, these are earrings made from
https://www.ebay.com/itm/201817393522
...
I didn't know that.
I think you have to be the type of person who goes into antique shops
and those small shops that sell "decorative" items to know this.

The trend in this area is to shops that rent untended booth space to
various vendors, but have one person that handles the sales
transactions. If there's something you want to buy in one of the
booths, it's tagged with the booth-holder's code and you take the item
to the check-out desk. The shop owner takes a cut of the
booth-holder's sale price.

In the "decorative items" shops, the person who makes the jewelry or
decorative item has them in the shop on a consignment basis. They
provide a display with the items, but the shop owner sells it and then
remits the amount to the consigner less a percentage.

Also, a lot of this type of thing is sold at craft fairs and art
shows. In this case, the maker actually works the booth.

Then there's Etsy, eBay, and other websites where it's sold.

I'm an antique shop browser, and my wife likes those small shops that
sell decorative items.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-04 13:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
There are several businesses that advertise
that they will buy silver, all kinds, all grades.
They offer a fixed percentage of the actual metal value,
on basis of the minute by minute market price for bulk silver.
The one I saw had a monitor in the shop
with the current price on the commodities market,
so the customer knows he is not being swindled.

They also say that they will pay more for antique silver
that has more value than just metal. (negotiable of course)
They advertise with the silverware from their flow
that they have selected for saving from the melt,
some of it being really valuable antiques.

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2021-12-04 14:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
There are several businesses that advertise
that they will buy silver, all kinds, all grades.
They offer a fixed percentage of the actual metal value,
on basis of the minute by minute market price for bulk silver.
Probably more than one fixed percentage, depending on the purity
and other factors.
Post by J. J. Lodder
The one I saw had a monitor in the shop
with the current price on the commodities market,
so the customer knows he is not being swindled.
I've been in a jewelry-supply store that buys gold and silver, but
the display was updated every morning with the prices they'd pay
that day.
Post by J. J. Lodder
They also say that they will pay more for antique silver
that has more value than just metal. (negotiable of course)
(I don't think the store I was in did that.)
Post by J. J. Lodder
They advertise with the silverware from their flow
that they have selected for saving from the melt,
some of it being really valuable antiques.
Really valuable according to current fashions among the rich
and knowledgeable?
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-05 15:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
...
Post by J. J. Lodder
The traditional set for Dutch silver is 12 of each,
in a 'cassette', together with the usual serving things.
These were sold as wedding gifts for the rich. [1]
The idea was that silver sets were meant for formal dinners,
so a mere six wouldn't do,
Jan
[1] Out of fashion these days, and old silver tableware
fetches little more than the metal value.
Poor quality antique silver fetches even less,
and is often melted down.
I wonder whether there would be a market for it in the U.S. I
recently saw part of a show on auctioning the contents of
abandoned storage units in Texas (/Storage Wars/), and it
appears that in this country antiques of all kinds are valuable
and there's a sucker born every minute.
There are several businesses that advertise
that they will buy silver, all kinds, all grades.
They offer a fixed percentage of the actual metal value,
on basis of the minute by minute market price for bulk silver.
Probably more than one fixed percentage, depending on the purity
and other factors.
They pay on basis of silver content,
so for example on 925 gr/kg for sterling silver.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
The one I saw had a monitor in the shop
with the current price on the commodities market,
so the customer knows he is not being swindled.
I've been in a jewelry-supply store that buys gold and silver, but
the display was updated every morning with the prices they'd pay
that day.
Leaving the customer to guess what the blk silver price may be?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They also say that they will pay more for antique silver
that has more value than just metal. (negotiable of course)
(I don't think the store I was in did that.)
That would be extremely stupid.
Some antiques are worth more than a hundred times their metal value.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They advertise with the silverware from their flow
that they have selected for saving from the melt,
some of it being really valuable antiques.
Really valuable according to current fashions among the rich
and knowledgeable?
Nothing current about it. Most of these things
were worth more than their metal value when they were made,
perhaps 300 years ago,

Jan

Adam Funk
2021-12-02 09:16:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
That is a fair point. In BrE usage, I think that cutlery encompasses all
those hand-held devices used at table to transfer food from plate to
mouth. I hope "at table" doesn't need translation.
It doesn't *need* translation, but AmE would be "at the table"
(cf. "in the hospital").
Post by Paul Wolff
I hear that there are
some people today who don't believe in communal mealtimes at all.
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
from the cathedral.

<https://cutlershall.co.uk/>
Post by Paul Wolff
back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
'Cutlery' isn't synonymous with 'silver'. We should admit here that
different usages abound. My own prejudice is towards 'silver' = cutlery
of solid (if alloyed) silver, or silver plate. I wouldn't dignify any
baser metal with the name.
From Tony Cooper, I infer that AmE flatware = BrE cutlery.
--
FORTRAN: You shoot yourself in each toe, iteratively, until you run
out of toes, then you read in the next foot and repeat. If you run out
of bullets, you continue anyway because you have no exception-handling
facility.
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-02 19:07:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
from the cathedral.
<https://cutlershall.co.uk/>
Named for Ivor Cutler.
A splendid man.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-12-02 21:52:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Dec 2021 19:44:39 +0000
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades
in England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of
life-preserved mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a
Sheffield district from way
It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
from the cathedral.
<https://cutlershall.co.uk/>
Named for Ivor Cutler.
A splendid man.
I had not thought of that!
I quite enjoyed the John Peel show with his whimsical musings (Or was
that Adge?)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-02 21:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
It still exists; they have a very fancy building across the street
from the cathedral.
<https://cutlershall.co.uk/>
Named for Ivor Cutler.
A splendid man.
I had not thought of that!
Thanks to YouTube, I revisited (inter alia) Gravity Begins at Home.


--
Sam Plusnet
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-02 19:04:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from way
back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports PTD.
But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks and
spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
A friend had 'digs' in the Sheffield Assay Office. He was discouraged
from having friends visit, and he had to promise to leave things untouched.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2021-12-03 05:58:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.

I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.

The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
England.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
musika
2021-12-03 06:50:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
 England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
 mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
 products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
England.
Electroplated nickel silver.
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-03 09:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
 England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
 mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
 products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
England.
Electroplated nickel silver.
In the early years of our marriage we used silver spoons and forks
every day, for the purely practical reason that they were all we had:
my first wife made off with all the stainless steel, and we couldn't
afford to replace it.

When our apartment was broken into in 1993, we lost a dictionary, a
GameBoy and our Italian money (they didn't bother with the British
money that was in the same place: I felt quite insulted). All our
silver was intact, probably because the thieves didn't think of looking
in the kitchen. Our neighbours were less fortunate.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-12-03 10:20:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
 England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
 mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
 products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
The cutlery of my childhood had indented marks saying "EPNS ENGLAND". I
believe EPNS stood for electroplated nickel steel. In those days there
probably wasn't any Australian-made cutlery, so we had to get it from
England.
Electroplated nickel silver.
In the early years of our marriage we used silver spoons and forks
my first wife made off with all the stainless steel, and we couldn't
afford to replace it.
When our apartment was broken into in 1993, we lost a dictionary, a
GameBoy and our Italian money (they didn't bother with the British
money that was in the same place: I felt quite insulted). All our
silver was intact, probably because the thieves didn't think of looking
in the kitchen. Our neighbours were less fortunate.
--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 15:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Isn't silver too soft to hold up to steaks and swedes and carrots?
Cups should be alright, but even those are probably an alloy of silver
Sterling silver is 92.5% silver with the 7.5% being other metals to
increase strength. Some silverware is marked at "900" or "800"
(meaning 90.0%/80.0%) but are not considered to be sterling silver.

These figures are stamped on each item along with the maker's mark.
The US adopted "925" as the figure for sterling in 1868.

I have a few "coin silver" spoons. They are pieces that are not
considered to be sterling, but have interest and value because they
were made in Colonial times before the 925 standard was adopted.
They are in the 900 range.

Tableknives can have a stainless steel blade and still be considered
as sterling silver flatware if the handle is sterling. Tableknives
are not stamped out in one piece. They are a blade and a handle
fitted together.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-03 21:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Peter Moylan suggested that ...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they are
not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
I think "flatware" as a term came about because people were stamping
out table service items. Large hammers, rather than castings in molds.
Silver tableware was never cast in molds.
(the result is quite soft, so unnusable)
It is always hammered, originally by hand
later pressed industrially and finished by hand.
Cast silver is restricted to heavy bulk items,
like candle holders, feet for teapots, and so on.
Works out pretty well for stainless steel, which the Oneida people
have done well with, and since then just about everybody else.
Post by Peter Moylan
I have mixed feelings about the term "silverware". Should silver-plated
cutlery qualify? My gut says no.
Isn't silver too soft to hold up to steaks and swedes and carrots?
Cups should be alright, but even those are probably an alloy of silver.
Yes, usally 835 or 925 (sterling)
The belief that this in necessary is nothing but folklore.
A Dutch firm (Gerritsen) proved it by making
and marketing 999 table silver.
Their methods to achieve this are a trade secret.
They obtained a special 999 hallmark for it.

It was not a commercial succes. More expensive,
and you really need to look at the hallmarks
to see the difference with lower grades,

Jan
charles
2021-12-03 21:50:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Peter Moylan suggested that ...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Paul Wolff
Sheffield is the ancestral home city of special steels and blades in
England, and the Cutler's Company is (was?) a sort of life-preserved
mediaeval guild of Cutlers in Hallamshire, a Sheffield district from
way back when. They even had their own trademark registry for bladed
products, recognised in English law. 'The Blades' is the current
nickname of Sheffield United Football Club. So far, this supports
PTD. But today's usage goes beyond, and says cutlery is knives, forks
and spoons. If pushed, sporks too, I'm sure.
My forks and spoons are definitely cutlery, in my language, but they
are not flat enough to be called flatware. The knives are fairly flat.
I think "flatware" as a term came about because people were stamping
out table service items. Large hammers, rather than castings in molds.
Silver tableware was never cast in molds.
(the result is quite soft, so unnusable)
It is always hammered, originally by hand
later pressed industrially and finished by hand.
A cousin of mine, produced a 25 setting set of gold cutlery for the, then,
new Scottish Parliament for formal dinners. He said he'd never do a
Government contract again.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 15:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
charles
2021-12-02 17:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are
at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
bil...@shaw.ca
2021-12-02 19:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are
at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of serving
chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table seats 10.
Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a different colour.
When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one person will generally use
the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of the food to each diner's plate,
then place the chopsticks back on a little stand on the table. Servers carry
a pair of kitchen scissors, and will use them to cut solid food items into an
appropriate number of pieces before placing the serving platter on the table.
Soups and congees come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by
one diner to all the others.

The diners in this case were tai chi practitioners sharing a meal after a
workout, and I noticed that Chinese family groups eating at other tables
tended to have a more relaxed approach to serving food. The initial serving
from a fresh platter might be done by one person, but after that if you
wanted more, you simply took it.

bill
charles
2021-12-02 20:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@shaw.ca
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are
at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a
wooden case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs
polished before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that
cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean
chopsticks are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese
restaurant in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I
don't think I needed to cut with them.
Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of
serving chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table
seats 10. Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a
different colour. When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one
person will generally use the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of
the food to each diner's plate, then place the chopsticks back on a
little stand on the table. Servers carry a pair of kitchen scissors, and
will use them to cut solid food items into an appropriate number of
pieces before placing the serving platter on the table. Soups and congees
come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by one diner to all
the others.
difficult eating soup with chopsticks.
Post by ***@shaw.ca
The diners in this case were tai chi practitioners sharing a meal after a
workout, and I noticed that Chinese family groups eating at other tables
tended to have a more relaxed approach to serving food. The initial
serving from a fresh platter might be done by one person, but after that
if you wanted more, you simply took it.
bill
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-02 22:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by ***@shaw.ca
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of
terms. Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a
wooden case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs
polished before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that
cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean
chopsticks are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese
restaurant in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I
don't think I needed to cut with them.
Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of
serving chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table
seats 10. Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a
different colour. When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one
person will generally use the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of
the food to each diner's plate, then place the chopsticks back on a
little stand on the table. Servers carry a pair of kitchen scissors, and
will use them to cut solid food items into an appropriate number of
pieces before placing the serving platter on the table. Soups and congees
come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by one diner to all
the others.
difficult eating soup with chopsticks.
So they have smaller bowls and porcelain spoons for that,

Jan
Tony Cooper
2021-12-03 00:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by ***@shaw.ca
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 4:39:10 AM UTC-5, J. J.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of
terms. Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a
wooden case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs
polished before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that
cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean
chopsticks are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese
restaurant in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I
don't think I needed to cut with them.
Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of
serving chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table
seats 10. Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a
different colour. When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one
person will generally use the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of
the food to each diner's plate, then place the chopsticks back on a
little stand on the table. Servers carry a pair of kitchen scissors, and
will use them to cut solid food items into an appropriate number of
pieces before placing the serving platter on the table. Soups and congees
come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by one diner to all
the others.
difficult eating soup with chopsticks.
So they have smaller bowls and porcelain spoons for that,
Those spoons are almost impossible to use without slurping or
spilling.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Quinn C
2021-12-03 01:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by ***@shaw.ca
Large Chinese restaurants in Vancouver provide at least one set of
serving chopsticks and more usually two sets per table; each round table
seats 10. Serving chopsticks are larger than eating chopsticks and a
different colour. When a new platter of food arrives at the table, one
person will generally use the serving chopsticks to transfer a portion of
the food to each diner's plate, then place the chopsticks back on a
little stand on the table. Servers carry a pair of kitchen scissors, and
will use them to cut solid food items into an appropriate number of
pieces before placing the serving platter on the table. Soups and congees
come with a ladle and are served from a large bowl by one diner to all
the others.
difficult eating soup with chopsticks.
In Japan, you usually do, but there's a reason the Japanese language
calls it "drinking soup".
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-02 22:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon
combination). But, I see you can order them online. Has
anyone else used one? Is it worth buying a new set of
silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for
the manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items that are
at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items.
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
In fact no cutting instruments of any kind were allowed to be
in the neighbourhood of a Chinese emperor at dinner.
All food was carried in pre-cut.

Just long experience with sound survival tactics,

Jan
Quinn C
2021-12-03 01:04:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.

The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
of naming something cutlery.

On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
"cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
etymology.
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-03 13:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.
The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
of naming something cutlery.
The rabbis could get a whole chapter of Talmud out of that.
Post by Quinn C
On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
"cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
etymology.
We have a word for that -- a certain type of "fallacy."
J. J. Lodder
2021-12-04 12:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.
The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
of naming something cutlery.
On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
"cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
etymology.
'Silverware' is hardly an etymology. It is descriptive.
Calling stainless steel silverware is capitalist swindle,
So it comes as no surprise that silverware
really is silver ware in Britain,
and whatever you want in the USA,
up to glittery plastic,

Jan
Quinn C
2021-12-04 15:31:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Yes, we do have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my
safe and comes out on very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden
case lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished
before being set out. "Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
My point exactly.
Post by Quinn C
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
You'll have to ask charles.
I've only ever used chopsticks once, it a very upmarket Chinese restaurant
in Leeds. This would hav ebeen around 40 years ago, but I don't think I
needed to cut with them.
The whole point of chopsticks is precisely
that you cannot cut with them.
Yes, but just as you may cut potatoes with your fork, it's not unusual
to cut an omelet or pieces of tofu with chopsticks.
The discussion was about whether that counts as cutting for the purpose
of naming something cutlery.
On a higher level, I was making fun of the idea that terms like
"cutlery", "silverware" or "hollowware" should be true to their
etymology.
'Silverware' is hardly an etymology. It is descriptive.
Calling stainless steel silverware is capitalist swindle,
So it comes as no surprise that silverware
really is silver ware in Britain,
and whatever you want in the USA,
up to glittery plastic,
If it's a description, it'll include candlesticks, tea kettles, and
various decorative items (even if we allow for jewellery to be treated
separately.)

I am the proud owner of a set of goblets made of silver-plated
styrofoam. Silverware or not?

Anyway, we were discussing terms for long-handled utensils used when
eating or serving food. You seem to be saying that "silverware" isn't in
that bag in the first place?
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Adam Funk
2021-12-02 16:15:24 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
But what would you call the forks and spoons?
Sure, you sometimes cut food with those, but does that mean chopsticks
are cutlery, too?
I'd include chopsticks in "cutlery", but I don't claim to be
authoritative about it.
--
They do (play, that is), and nobody gets killed, but Metallic K.O. is
the only rock album I know where you can actually hear hurled beer
bottles breaking against guitar strings. ---Lester Bangs
Sam Plusnet
2021-12-01 23:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
Perhaps, but The Worshipful Company of Cutlers have diversified since 1416.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2021-12-02 15:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by bruce bowser
I still haven't seen or used a metal spork (fork-spoon combination).
But, I see you can order them online. Has anyone else used one? Is it
worth buying a new set of silverware?
Only if your 'silverware' includes 'titanium',
Of course it does. "Silverware" is an ordinary-language term for the
manufacturer's/retailer's "flatware."
I was under the impression that this an an American abuse of terms.
Elsewhere I would expect 'silverware' to refer to items
that are at least superficially silver, like plate,
In this family (UK) we use the term "cutlery" for general items. Yes, we do
have silverware (the silver set), but it lives in my safe and comes out on
very special occasions.
We have "the good silver" for that, the kind that lives in a wooden case
lined with anti-tarnish lining but still it needs polished before being set out.
"Cutlery" should be things that cut.
Perhaps, but The Worshipful Company of Cutlers have diversified since 1416.
Kinda like the Teamsters' Union.
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