Discussion:
"Never" with preterite (a bit of German here)
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Paul Carmichael
2020-02-11 12:29:44 UTC
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Somebody on duolingo said:

'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'

I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.

Somebody else has replied:

"Es sind unterschiedliche Aussagen:

present perfect simple : es reicht von der Vergangenheit bis in Gegenwart
- I have never [felt/been] this happy. - Ich war noch nie so glücklich.
→ das present perfect simple erlaubt mir, never als "noch nie" zu übersetzen
Der Satz passt in einen Zusammenhang, in dem ich ausdrücken will, wie glücklich ich jetzt bin

simple past : es geht um eine abgeschlossene Zeit in der Vergangenheit
- I [never felt/was never] this happy. - Ich war nie so glücklich.
Die Aussage bezieht sich z.B. auf meine Kindheit, entweder im Vergleich zu einem anderen,
sehr glücklichen Kind, oder im Vergleich zu einer anderen Zeitspanne meines Lebens."


...which I don't understand as my German is pants.

Does this message just refer to the "noch nie" versus "nie" question? Or does it comment
on the English usage? I don't want to ask google as I don't trust it.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-11 14:54:34 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'
I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.
present perfect simple : es reicht von der Vergangenheit bis in Gegenwart
- I have never [felt/been] this happy. - Ich war noch nie so glücklich.
→ das present perfect simple erlaubt mir, never als "noch nie" zu übersetzen
Der Satz passt in einen Zusammenhang, in dem ich ausdrücken will, wie glücklich ich jetzt bin
simple past : es geht um eine abgeschlossene Zeit in der Vergangenheit
- I [never felt/was never] this happy. - Ich war nie so glücklich.
Die Aussage bezieht sich z.B. auf meine Kindheit, entweder im Vergleich zu einem anderen,
sehr glücklichen Kind, oder im Vergleich zu einer anderen Zeitspanne meines Lebens."
...which I don't understand as my German is pants.
Does this message just refer to the "noch nie" versus "nie" question? Or does it comment
on the English usage? I don't want to ask google as I don't trust it.
It seems to be strictly about the English, and it seems to be correct.

More interesting is your expression "my German is pants."
Madhu
2020-02-12 04:45:43 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is your expression "my German is pants."
ud suggests it is british for rubbish. i first encountered it in a KJM
post recently "This thread is pants"
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-12 09:51:39 UTC
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* "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
More interesting is your expression "my German is pants."
ud suggests it is british for rubbish. i first encountered it in a
KJM post recently "This thread is pants"
It was all about kecks & trews.

But yes, 'pants' can be/is used in that manner; but probably only by
those Brits over 40. or maybe it's making a comeback; I'm not that "down
with the kids".
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-12 01:00:11 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'
I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.
Especially OK if he's dead or it's otherwise impossible now for you to
meet him.

Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If one gets
into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them," referring to the time
up to the collision.

[German snipped--I can't help.]
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2020-02-12 13:02:03 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'
I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.
Especially OK if he's dead or it's otherwise impossible now for you
to meet him.
Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If one
gets into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them," referring to
the time up to the collision.
I think that that last "never" is often an emphatic negative, with no
direct implication of "not at any time". "Mommy, Mommy, Jerry pinched
me!" "I never!".

It may be well known that Jerry has pinched his sister in the past; the
two drivers may be neighbours.
Post by Jerry Friedman
[German snipped--I can't help.]
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-12 22:19:14 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'
I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.
Especially OK if he's dead or it's otherwise impossible now for you
to meet him.
Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If one
gets into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them," referring to
the time up to the collision.
I think that that last "never" is often an emphatic negative, with no
direct implication of "not at any time". "Mommy, Mommy, Jerry pinched
me!" "I never!".
Not in my dialect. I don't think I've ever encountered "I never!" in
any sense except in books or as a joke.
Post by CDB
It may be well known that Jerry has pinched his sister in the past;
She just made that up, it was my brother not me, she started it, and
anyway it was a long time ago. Isn't there a statue of limitations?
Post by CDB
the two drivers may be neighbours.
OK, "I never met him when we were going to the same college, but later
we met on a birding trip." That can't be "I've never met him," right?

(By the way, the emphatic negative of "That was never five minutes!"
isn't in my dialect either.)
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2020-02-13 17:46:42 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
'"never" ist ein Signalwort für Simple Present Perfect'
I disagreed and said that, for instance "I never met him" is ok.
Especially OK if he's dead or it's otherwise impossible now for
you to meet him.
Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If one
gets into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them," referring
to the time up to the collision.
I think that that last "never" is often an emphatic negative, with
no direct implication of "not at any time". "Mommy, Mommy, Jerry
pinched me!" "I never!".
Not in my dialect. I don't think I've ever encountered "I never!"
in any sense except in books or as a joke.
Post by CDB
It may be well known that Jerry has pinched his sister in the
past;
She just made that up, it was my brother not me, she started it, and
anyway it was a long time ago. Isn't there a statue of limitations?
Post by CDB
the two drivers may be neighbours.
OK, "I never met him when we were going to the same college, but
later we met on a birding trip." That can't be "I've never met him,"
right?
Right, but (for me, anyway) the implications of that statement, in a
different explanatory context, are different from those of "I never saw
them" made after bending a fender.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(By the way, the emphatic negative of "That was never five minutes!"
isn't in my dialect either.)
Nor mine. I hear it in the indignant tones of Deejay* Macdonnell, a
childhood friend of recent Irish ancestry. I might go with "I never
did!, though. I suppose that could be "not at any time", for
exaggeration more than emphasis.

*"Donald John", which now seems unfortunate.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 18:00:19 UTC
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...
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If one
gets into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them," referring
to the time up to the collision.
I think that that last "never" is often an emphatic negative, with
no direct implication of "not at any time". "Mommy, Mommy, Jerry
pinched me!" "I never!".
Not in my dialect. I don't think I've ever encountered "I never!"
in any sense except in books or as a joke.
Post by CDB
It may be well known that Jerry has pinched his sister in the past;
She just made that up, it was my brother not me, she started it, and
anyway it was a long time ago. Isn't there a statue of limitations?
Post by CDB
the two drivers may be neighbours.
OK, "I never met him when we were going to the same college, but
later we met on a birding trip." That can't be "I've never met him,"
right?
Right, but (for me, anyway) the implications of that statement, in a
different explanatory context, are different from those of "I never saw
them" made after bending a fender.
What are the implications? Just an emphatic negative?
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
(By the way, the emphatic negative of "That was never five minutes!"
isn't in my dialect either.)
Nor mine. I hear it in the indignant tones of Deejay* Macdonnell, a
childhood friend of recent Irish ancestry. I might go with "I never
did!, though. I suppose that could be "not at any time", for
exaggeration more than emphasis.
It's a fine line.
Post by CDB
*"Donald John", which now seems unfortunate.
Maybe he or someone thought early on that "Donald Macdonnell" was
unfortunate.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2020-02-13 20:03:31 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Likewise "I was never this happy when I was in college." If
one gets into a car accident, one says, "I never saw them,"
referring to the time up to the collision.
I think that that last "never" is often an emphatic negative,
with no direct implication of "not at any time". "Mommy,
Mommy, Jerry pinched me!" "I never!".
Not in my dialect. I don't think I've ever encountered "I
never!" in any sense except in books or as a joke.
Post by CDB
It may be well known that Jerry has pinched his sister in the past;
She just made that up, it was my brother not me, she started it,
and anyway it was a long time ago. Isn't there a statue of
limitations?
Post by CDB
the two drivers may be neighbours.
OK, "I never met him when we were going to the same college, but
later we met on a birding trip." That can't be "I've never met
him," right?
Right, but (for me, anyway) the implications of that statement, in
a different explanatory context, are different from those of "I
never saw them" made after bending a fender.
What are the implications? Just an emphatic negative?
Yes, I think so, because the circumstances as described define a limited
period -- the few minutes or (more likely) seconds leading up to the
collision.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
(By the way, the emphatic negative of "That was never five
minutes!" isn't in my dialect either.)
Nor mine. I hear it in the indignant tones of Deejay* Macdonnell,
a childhood friend of recent Irish ancestry. I might go with "I
never did!, though. I suppose that could be "not at any time", for
exaggeration more than emphasis.
It's a fine line.
Post by CDB
*"Donald John", which now seems unfortunate.
Maybe he or someone thought early on that "Donald Macdonnell" was
unfortunate.
Maybe, although the name was pronounced [,m&k d@ 'nEl]. The late Mr
Macdonnell may have had the same first name -- not sure.
Peter Moylan
2020-02-14 00:38:46 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Nor mine. I hear it in the indignant tones of Deejay* Macdonnell,
a childhood friend of recent Irish ancestry. I might go with "I
never did!, though. I suppose that could be "not at any time",
for exaggeration more than emphasis.
It's a fine line.
Post by CDB
*"Donald John", which now seems unfortunate.
Maybe he or someone thought early on that "Donald Macdonnell" was
unfortunate.
A number of the Scottish highland chieftains were called Domhnaill mac
Domhnaill, or an anglicisation of the same.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2020-02-12 18:17:56 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
[German snipped--I can't help.]
When you see German, you can't help snipping?
--
Doris did not usually leave men to port and cigars except
at large,formal dinners because Frank was a man who often
found other men's company gross and tedious.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.93
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-12 22:03:06 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
[German snipped--I can't help.]
When you see German, you can't help snipping?
Ja. I mean Nein. Or maybe Doch.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2020-02-12 23:34:54 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
[German snipped--I can't help.]
When you see German, you can't help snipping?
Ja. I mean Nein. Or maybe Doch.
<https://cf.geekdo-images.com/camo/77159df2895d393dfec6b8e40c4a2eae40b7998f/687474703a2f2f73746f726167652e676f6f676c65617069732e636f6d2f777a756b75736572732f757365722d31353234393936322f696d616765732f353764323063643939373030654e634f6771704b2f7368342e6a7067>

Most people at my regular board games meetup just love this. For me, it
hits a bit too close to home.
--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 05:13:45 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
[German snipped--I can't help.]
When you see German, you can't help snipping?
Ja. I mean Nein. Or maybe Doch.
<https://cf.geekdo-images.com/camo/77159df2895d393dfec6b8e40c4a2eae40b7998f/687474703a2f2f73746f726167652e676f6f676c65617069732e636f6d2f777a756b75736572732f757365722d31353234393936322f696d616765732f353764323063643939373030654e634f6771704b2f7368342e6a7067>
Most people at my regular board games meetup just love this. For me, it
hits a bit too close to home.
That's from a game called Secret Hitler? I think I'm glimpsing your
objection.
--
Jerry Friedman
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