Discussion:
Dear Sis
(too old to reply)
tony cooper
2010-12-30 20:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Dear Sis:

Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.

It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.

When someone places you in their killfile, that someone sets their
newsgroup reader to ignore any posts that you originate. It's not all
that effective since whatever you post still shows up on the
killfiler's screen when your posts have responses. It's sorta like
being in a group and telling one member of the group “I'm not
listening to you”, but remaining in the group where you can still hear
the conversation...the on-screen version of covering your ears and
going “woo, woo, woo”.

Lack of effectiveness aside, the real import of killfiling is to tell
the person that they are being killfiled. It's supposed to cow them.
In this case, I've been in that killfile for several years, but only
recently been officially notified. The notification is the real woo,
woo, woo; the thumbs in the ear wiggle that makes the statement.

This is the first time I've been locked out by someone, so I'm not
sure what I'm supposed to do. I do know that I shouldn't bet that
others will be locked out the same way, though.

Perhaps I should retaliate like the big boys do. When Chavez kicked
out our ambassador, we kicked out their ambassador. This might be
appropriate because expelling ambassadors is just as ineffectual as
killfiling, but the chest has been publicly thumped. The problem is,
of course, that I can't tell this person that he's been killfiled by
me because his first-strike action shields him from notification.
Wouldn't do it anyway, though.

Not much else going on in the newsgroup, Sis, other than a number of
posts that have been informative about which authors to be avoided in
the future. Well, there have been a lot of posts that have something
to do with encoding, some about God, gods, and the end of the world,
and the usual nonsense from the sci.lang mob.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Hatunen
2010-12-30 20:45:40 UTC
Permalink
“
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
--
Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Arizona, out where the cacti grow
tony cooper
2010-12-30 21:09:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:45:40 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen
Post by David Hatunen
?
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
All I see on the screen here is a question mark. I suspect the word
containing the mystery character is "fatwa" with an a with a macron.
Reading my own post, no ? is seen in Agent.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Nick Spalding
2010-12-31 11:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:45:40 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen
Post by David Hatunen
?
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
All I see on the screen here is a question mark. I suspect the word
containing the mystery character is "fatwa" with an a with a macron.
Reading my own post, no ? is seen in Agent.
It shows as a plain 'a' in my Agent.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
John Varela
2010-12-31 21:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Spalding
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 20:45:40 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen
Post by David Hatunen
?
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
All I see on the screen here is a question mark. I suspect the word
containing the mystery character is "fatwa" with an a with a macron.
Reading my own post, no ? is seen in Agent.
It shows as a plain 'a' in my Agent.
Same here, using ProNews/2.
--
John Varela
franzi
2010-12-30 22:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hatunen
 “
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
Gosh, this is mysterious. Tony writes 45 lines or so, most of them
full of bits and bytes, and Dave quotes one character that looks in
his post as represented on Google Groups like a pair of inverted
commas in a single space, but which Tony quotes as a question mark in
reply. So Dave asks Tony "What is this character?", and the mind-
boggly bit is that we don't know which of the 72 x 45 = 3240 or
thereabouts of characters he means.

C'mon Dave, which one was it? Coordinates north and east from the
bottom left-hand corner might help pin it down, if you're stuck for
better ideas.
--
franzi
Bertel Lund Hansen
2010-12-30 23:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hatunen
?
I have to ask: what character did you enter there?
A wild guess since the question mark is not very informative: I
think it is the set of quote marks which do not belong to
ISO-8859-1.

You might have quoted the context.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Christian Weisgerber
2010-12-30 22:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hatunen
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
(Hexadecimal 93 = 147, presumably, which is not ASCII by definition
since ASCII only covers 0..127.)

The usual MS Windows shit. His article header bears this declaration

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

but the body uses characters in the range 128..159 that is reserved
for control characters in ISO 8859-1. What he is actually using
is Windows CP-1252, which has various graphic characters there.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Windows-1252

The usual toxic mix of standards non-compliant software and computer
illiterate users.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
tony cooper
2010-12-31 01:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by David Hatunen
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it looks
like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII 93 in
some encoding?
(Hexadecimal 93 = 147, presumably, which is not ASCII by definition
since ASCII only covers 0..127.)
The usual MS Windows shit. His article header bears this declaration
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
but the body uses characters in the range 128..159 that is reserved
for control characters in ISO 8859-1. What he is actually using
is Windows CP-1252, which has various graphic characters there.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Windows-1252
The usual toxic mix of standards non-compliant software and computer
illiterate users.
I have no idea of what you just said.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Hatunen
2010-12-31 06:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by David Hatunen
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it
looks like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII
93 in some encoding?
(Hexadecimal 93 = 147, presumably, which is not ASCII by definition
since ASCII only covers 0..127.)
I can successfully copy and paste the character into my text editor and
it stoill looks like a littl square with the numbers "0093" inside it.
(They're arranged in two rows with 00 on top and 93 under them.)

But the Ubuntu character map shows just foreign characters at 93 and 147.

In OpenOffice Write I just get an empty box.

Curious.
--
Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Arizona, out where the cacti grow
Nick
2010-12-31 08:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Hatunen
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by David Hatunen
I have to ask: what character did you enter there? On my screen it
looks like a square with the tiny numbers "0093" inside it. Is it ASCII
93 in some encoding?
(Hexadecimal 93 = 147, presumably, which is not ASCII by definition
since ASCII only covers 0..127.)
I can successfully copy and paste the character into my text editor and
it stoill looks like a littl square with the numbers "0093" inside it.
(They're arranged in two rows with 00 on top and 93 under them.)
But the Ubuntu character map shows just foreign characters at 93 and 147.
In OpenOffice Write I just get an empty box.
Curious.
It came here (Gnus) as the octal code for the character. It's - as
someone explained - just Microsoft being boneheaded and brainless
(again!).

Brief history. Apologies for both egg-sucking and
gross-oversimplifications.

Back in the year dot Usenet used one set of 96 characters (ASCII). This
used the 128 characters available if you have 7 "bits" of data, with the
missing 32 being "control" characters (things like "new line" plus a
pile of things dating back to teletype days).

That's OK for Americans and nearly for Brits, but inadequate for the
rest of the world, even Europe. So the next extension was to make the
code another "bit" longer (because of the may most modern computers are
built that bit was there anyway but not being used), doubling the size.

The common new standard has the first 128 characters the same, then
space for another 32 control characters, and then 96 really useful
characters for furriners such as e-actute and the like.

Those 32 extra control character spaces are really wasted, as there's
nothing simple to do with them (I think it's so that a message ever
got cut down to the old size the features that control how it is
transmitted would still work). So Microsoft came up with their own code
which is the same as the new standard but with extra characters in those
32 slots (including, of particular note, angled quotation marks of
various number).

As long as that stayed within the walls of Microsoft machines, that's
fine. But...

What happened here - and is happening all the time, all over the place -
is that much Microsoft software sends the Microsoft specific internal
code out. That's not very friendly, but we (those of us who don't use
Microsoft software, but need to cope with things coming from it) could
work around it if we knew. The real problem is that Microsoft LIE.
They put a header saying that they are the new international standard,
but use those 32 spaces that are meant to be "control" characters for
"printing" characters.

So software that follows the international standards has no choice but
to protest about the symbol.

This leads to posts from many Microsoft users appearing to much of the
rest of the world (and it's larger than you think, particularly - I'd
bet - on Usenet) peppered with whatever method their software uses to
cope with an unexpected embedded control character in the middle of the
text. Like a ? on a black background, or a little box with the code in,
or a backslash followed by a string of octal or...

Oddly this mislabelling seems to come and go - not all versions of any
particular Microsoft product seem to lie in this way.

Phew, that went on a bit - did it make sense?
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Bertel Lund Hansen
2010-12-31 09:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick
That's OK for Americans and nearly for Brits, but inadequate for the
rest of the world, even Europe.
Not quite. Dutch people are quite happy with ASCII as well.
--
Bertel, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2010-12-31 10:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Nick
That's OK for Americans and nearly for Brits, but inadequate for the
rest of the world, even Europe.
Not quite. Dutch people are quite happy with ASCII as well.
Not really. Dutch does use accents,
both in loan words and for adding emphasis.

Moreover the dieresis (trema, not to be confused with the umlaut)
is inherent to Dutch and can't be missed,

Jan
Garrett Wollman
2010-12-31 10:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick
Brief history. Apologies for both egg-sucking and
gross-oversimplifications.
Just to add some more specific details to the mix...

Originally, telegraphs (with which we on this newsgroup are all old to
still recall) used one of a few different varieties of Morse code.
The design of Morse code, with its array of different lengths of
symbols, and with some letters beginning with symbols that correspond
to whole other letters,[1] makes it relatively difficult for primitive
electromechanical devices to decode it. (Trained humans, on the other
hand, have the right sort of computational equipment to just read it
off without even thinking about it.) So when increasing volumes made
it necessary to replace human telegraph transcribers with mechanical
"teleprinters", a simpler code was needed. The earliest common code
was five symbols -- we'd now say "bits", but in data-communications
jargon they were "mark" and "space" rather than "one" and "zero" --
and was invented by Emile Baudot in 1870; it's now known as Baudot
code or "International Telegraph Alphabet No. 1". A couple of
variants of this code were developed, and the variant known as ITA2 is
still in limited use on radio today.

A five-bit code can of course only represent 32 characters, which is
not enough to have a complete set of letters and digits, never mind
multiple cases, accents, punctuation marks, etc. In Baudot, probably
influenced by the design of mechanical typewriters, two "shift codes"
are defined, LTRS and FIGS, which effectively expand the character
set to 62 characters. (That's still not enough to have both upper and
lower case!)

By the late 1950s, this situation was clearly unsatisfactory: many
users wanted mixed-case messages, and the system of shift codes made
it unnecessarily complicated for early computers to process text. The
European Computer Manufacturers' Association introduced a six-bit code
in 1960, known as ECMA 6, and IBM had its own six-bit code as well,
but the American Standards Association's X3 committee, which was
sponsored by the Business Equipment Manufacturers' Association,
preferred a seven-bit code. (They had existing prior art in FIELDATA
code on the Univac 1100, and Western Electric's Teletype
Corp. subsidiary was already making teleprinters using an
AT&T-proprietary seven-bit character set.)

The ultimate standard, ASA X3.4-1963, was the first version of ASCII.
It's very similar to the last version of ASCII, but had a few
differences that were to prove important later on; most notable, It
had a full set of (teletype-network-inspired) control characters,
including a "newline" code distinct from both "carriage return" and
"line feed". The Multics project, which began at MIT Project MAC[2]
in 1964, was based from the start on the 1963 standard, and chose to
use the newline character as its single-character line terminator in
text files. (The terminal interface would translate this to CR/LF
with appropriate delays when talking to a device that required it,
like a Teletype machine.)

In 1968, ASCII was revised, changing some characters (notable ^, _,
and | took their current meanings), and eliminating some control
characters, including the newline, which was combined with the
line-feed character. The Multics team -- spread over three different
organizations, MIT, Honeywell, and AT&T -- had a "flag day" to convert
to the new character set, including the change of newline character.
AT&T then dropped out of the Multics project, but Ken Thompson
continued the Multics tradition of the single-character newline when
he went on to create UNIX on the (much smaller) departmental PDP-7.
ASCII was also designated as Intenrational Telegraph Alphabet No. 5.

The 1968 version of ASCII also gave users the option of two different
meanings for the ' and ` characters, again with far-reaching
consequences: ' was the apostrophe, but could also be either an acute
accent or a right single quotation mark; ` could be either a grave
accent or a left single quotation mark. Two important computer
typesetting systems, AT&T's troff and Donald Knuth's TeX, chose the
quotation-mark meaning. When John Warnock and Chuck Geschke created
PostScript, they naturally used the quotation-mark interpretation as
well, which is why the PostScript StandardEncoding puts quotation
marks at those positions, although by that time the quotation-mark
meaning was already officially deprecated. The X Window System
includes bitmap versions of the seven standard PostScript fonts,
contributed by Adobe, which until the late 1990s reflected this choice
of interpretation. (This made it much easier to read shell scripts
and TeX source files than it is today.)

In the early 1970s, the ISO got involved and adopted its own version
of ASCII as ISO 646. ECMA also ratified the seven-bit ISO standard as
a revision of its own ECMA 6. Because ASCII did not include
characters (particularly accented characters) required for many
non-English languages, many of the punctuation characters were
designated for replacement by national characters upon adoption by
national standards bodies; these included $, [, {, ], }, <, and >.
The ASCII assignments, with the exception of $, were used by the
"International Reference Variant" -- the dollar sign was replaced with
a little-used "international currency symbol" that looks like a
lozenge. In 1983, the final version of ASCII ceded the field to the
ISO 646 framework and character assignments (including the use of '
and ` as accents rather than quotation marks). ISO 646 survived into
the early 1990s, resulting in a horrible botch in the ISO C standard
known as "trigraphs" (a mechanism to allow three characters from the
invariant set of ISO 646 to be used to represent one of the missing
punctuation characters, all but one of which are fundamental to C's
syntax).

Meanwhile, it had become clear that eight bits was going to be the
standard character size for all computer and communications devices.
Two new ISO standards paved the way: ISO 2022 defined a set of escape
sequences (introduced by the "escape" control character) which allowed
users to change the characters represented by different segments of
the eight-bit range; this was necessary to support hitherto-ignored
Asian character repertoires such as the three Japanese character
systems. ISO 2022 was not widely adopted outside the Far East, where
it still remains in limited use (particularly in Japan) today. ISO
8859, on the other hand, defined a whole family of eight-bit character
sets, which included additional typesetting characters like the
non-breaking space, and most importantly improved coverage of accented
characters, allowing for the retirement of national ISO 646 variants
and a richer universal set of punctuation marks (including all of the
ones required for C programming).

But eight bits still wasn't enough to cover all European languages in
a single character set, never mind Far Eastern languages, so IT
companies joined together to take the next step, a 16-bit character
set called Unicode. With sixteen bits and some creative effort,
nearly all of the world's languages could be accomodated in the 65,000
characters of Unicode. In order to make East Asian languages fit,
however, the Unicode designers did something called "Han unification",
which gave the same character code to similar-looking Chinese-derived
characters in Chinese, Japanese, and pre-reform Korean writing
systems. This greatly offended the Japanese, who announced that they
would not be adopting any new character set which did not properly
represent Japanese characters as distinct from their Chinese
counterparts.[3] The Japanese objections made it impossible for the
ISO committee which was developing a new character-set standard to
adopt the Unicode work unchanged. As a compromise, the new ISO
standard -- ISO 10646 -- was defined as a 32-bit superset of the
16-bit Unicode standard, with the first 65,536 characters defined as
the "Basic Multilingual Plane"; however, no separate series of
Japanese characters (kanji) was ever added. (There is a very large
block of additional "Unified CJK" characters in plane 2.)

Of course, with a 16- or 32-bit character standard, it's necessary to
definte an eight-bit (or in some cases seven-bit) representation,
which will perforce either have persistent shift states, like Baudot,
or variable-length characters. The most popular encoding is UTF-8,
which takes the latter choice; it also has the property that, when
interpreted as ISO 8859-1, characters from the lower eight bits of ISO
8859-1 are clearly distinguishable (albeit preceded by another
character, often an accented capital A).

How did it get to be 5:30 already? I should have gone to bed three
hours ago!

-GAWollman

[1] To use the technical term, it's not a "prefix code". For example,
the letter S (Morse "dit dit dit") can also be read as the string EEE
(one E is a Morse "dit"); a human receiver can distinguish them by
learning the remote sender's characteristic inter-letter and
inter-word pauses, but that was too difficult for early
electromechanical equipment.

[2] Full disclosure: my current employer, modulo two name changes.

[3] This is not completely ridiculous, as the characters are
completely identical in all properties, which meant that software
needed to know whether the unified Han characters were intended to be
presented as Chinese or Japanese; multilingual Chinese/Japanese (or
traditional Korean/Japanese) texts would require extra markup to
display the correct characters.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Nick Spalding
2010-12-31 11:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Nick
Brief history. Apologies for both egg-sucking and
gross-oversimplifications.
Just to add some more specific details to the mix...
Originally, telegraphs (with which we on this newsgroup are all old to
still recall) used one of a few different varieties of Morse code.
The design of Morse code, with its array of different lengths of
symbols, and with some letters beginning with symbols that correspond
to whole other letters,[1] makes it relatively difficult for primitive
electromechanical devices to decode it.
Cable and Wireless had a wonderfully complicated electro-mechanical
printer that achieved it.
Post by Garrett Wollman
(Trained humans, on the other
hand, have the right sort of computational equipment to just read it
off without even thinking about it.) So when increasing volumes made
it necessary to replace human telegraph transcribers with mechanical
"teleprinters", a simpler code was needed. The earliest common code
was five symbols -- we'd now say "bits", but in data-communications
jargon they were "mark" and "space" rather than "one" and "zero" --
and was invented by Emile Baudot in 1870; it's now known as Baudot
code or "International Telegraph Alphabet No. 1". A couple of
variants of this code were developed, and the variant known as ITA2 is
still in limited use on radio today.
A five-bit code can of course only represent 32 characters, which is
not enough to have a complete set of letters and digits, never mind
multiple cases, accents, punctuation marks, etc. In Baudot, probably
influenced by the design of mechanical typewriters, two "shift codes"
are defined, LTRS and FIGS, which effectively expand the character
set to 62 characters. (That's still not enough to have both upper and
lower case!)
By the late 1950s, this situation was clearly unsatisfactory: many
users wanted mixed-case messages, and the system of shift codes made
it unnecessarily complicated for early computers to process text. The
European Computer Manufacturers' Association introduced a six-bit code
in 1960, known as ECMA 6, and IBM had its own six-bit code as well,
but the American Standards Association's X3 committee, which was
sponsored by the Business Equipment Manufacturers' Association,
preferred a seven-bit code. (They had existing prior art in FIELDATA
code on the Univac 1100, and Western Electric's Teletype
Corp. subsidiary was already making teleprinters using an
AT&T-proprietary seven-bit character set.)
The ultimate standard, ASA X3.4-1963, was the first version of ASCII.
It's very similar to the last version of ASCII, but had a few
differences that were to prove important later on; most notable, It
had a full set of (teletype-network-inspired) control characters,
including a "newline" code distinct from both "carriage return" and
"line feed". The Multics project, which began at MIT Project MAC[2]
in 1964, was based from the start on the 1963 standard, and chose to
use the newline character as its single-character line terminator in
text files. (The terminal interface would translate this to CR/LF
with appropriate delays when talking to a device that required it,
like a Teletype machine.)
In 1968, ASCII was revised, changing some characters (notable ^, _,
and | took their current meanings), and eliminating some control
characters, including the newline, which was combined with the
line-feed character. The Multics team -- spread over three different
organizations, MIT, Honeywell, and AT&T -- had a "flag day" to convert
to the new character set, including the change of newline character.
AT&T then dropped out of the Multics project, but Ken Thompson
continued the Multics tradition of the single-character newline when
he went on to create UNIX on the (much smaller) departmental PDP-7.
ASCII was also designated as Intenrational Telegraph Alphabet No. 5.
The 1968 version of ASCII also gave users the option of two different
meanings for the ' and ` characters, again with far-reaching
consequences: ' was the apostrophe, but could also be either an acute
accent or a right single quotation mark; ` could be either a grave
accent or a left single quotation mark. Two important computer
typesetting systems, AT&T's troff and Donald Knuth's TeX, chose the
quotation-mark meaning. When John Warnock and Chuck Geschke created
PostScript, they naturally used the quotation-mark interpretation as
well, which is why the PostScript StandardEncoding puts quotation
marks at those positions, although by that time the quotation-mark
meaning was already officially deprecated. The X Window System
includes bitmap versions of the seven standard PostScript fonts,
contributed by Adobe, which until the late 1990s reflected this choice
of interpretation. (This made it much easier to read shell scripts
and TeX source files than it is today.)
In the early 1970s, the ISO got involved and adopted its own version
of ASCII as ISO 646. ECMA also ratified the seven-bit ISO standard as
a revision of its own ECMA 6. Because ASCII did not include
characters (particularly accented characters) required for many
non-English languages, many of the punctuation characters were
designated for replacement by national characters upon adoption by
national standards bodies; these included $, [, {, ], }, <, and >.
The ASCII assignments, with the exception of $, were used by the
"International Reference Variant" -- the dollar sign was replaced with
a little-used "international currency symbol" that looks like a
lozenge. In 1983, the final version of ASCII ceded the field to the
ISO 646 framework and character assignments (including the use of '
and ` as accents rather than quotation marks). ISO 646 survived into
the early 1990s, resulting in a horrible botch in the ISO C standard
known as "trigraphs" (a mechanism to allow three characters from the
invariant set of ISO 646 to be used to represent one of the missing
punctuation characters, all but one of which are fundamental to C's
syntax).
Meanwhile, it had become clear that eight bits was going to be the
standard character size for all computer and communications devices.
Two new ISO standards paved the way: ISO 2022 defined a set of escape
sequences (introduced by the "escape" control character) which allowed
users to change the characters represented by different segments of
the eight-bit range; this was necessary to support hitherto-ignored
Asian character repertoires such as the three Japanese character
systems. ISO 2022 was not widely adopted outside the Far East, where
it still remains in limited use (particularly in Japan) today. ISO
8859, on the other hand, defined a whole family of eight-bit character
sets, which included additional typesetting characters like the
non-breaking space, and most importantly improved coverage of accented
characters, allowing for the retirement of national ISO 646 variants
and a richer universal set of punctuation marks (including all of the
ones required for C programming).
But eight bits still wasn't enough to cover all European languages in
a single character set, never mind Far Eastern languages, so IT
companies joined together to take the next step, a 16-bit character
set called Unicode. With sixteen bits and some creative effort,
nearly all of the world's languages could be accomodated in the 65,000
characters of Unicode. In order to make East Asian languages fit,
however, the Unicode designers did something called "Han unification",
which gave the same character code to similar-looking Chinese-derived
characters in Chinese, Japanese, and pre-reform Korean writing
systems. This greatly offended the Japanese, who announced that they
would not be adopting any new character set which did not properly
represent Japanese characters as distinct from their Chinese
counterparts.[3] The Japanese objections made it impossible for the
ISO committee which was developing a new character-set standard to
adopt the Unicode work unchanged. As a compromise, the new ISO
standard -- ISO 10646 -- was defined as a 32-bit superset of the
16-bit Unicode standard, with the first 65,536 characters defined as
the "Basic Multilingual Plane"; however, no separate series of
Japanese characters (kanji) was ever added. (There is a very large
block of additional "Unified CJK" characters in plane 2.)
Of course, with a 16- or 32-bit character standard, it's necessary to
definte an eight-bit (or in some cases seven-bit) representation,
which will perforce either have persistent shift states, like Baudot,
or variable-length characters. The most popular encoding is UTF-8,
which takes the latter choice; it also has the property that, when
interpreted as ISO 8859-1, characters from the lower eight bits of ISO
8859-1 are clearly distinguishable (albeit preceded by another
character, often an accented capital A).
How did it get to be 5:30 already? I should have gone to bed three
hours ago!
-GAWollman
[1] To use the technical term, it's not a "prefix code". For example,
the letter S (Morse "dit dit dit") can also be read as the string EEE
(one E is a Morse "dit"); a human receiver can distinguish them by
learning the remote sender's characteristic inter-letter and
inter-word pauses, but that was too difficult for early
electromechanical equipment.
[2] Full disclosure: my current employer, modulo two name changes.
[3] This is not completely ridiculous, as the characters are
completely identical in all properties, which meant that software
needed to know whether the unified Han characters were intended to be
presented as Chinese or Japanese; multilingual Chinese/Japanese (or
traditional Korean/Japanese) texts would require extra markup to
display the correct characters.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Pablo
2010-12-31 10:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick
Back in the year dot Usenet used one set of 96 characters (ASCII). This
used the 128 characters available if you have 7 "bits" of data, with the
missing 32 being "control" characters (things like "new line" plus a
pile of things dating back to teletype days).
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii"

Blimey. Someone still posting in 7 bit. How quaint. I thought the whole
usenet world had agreed on utf-8?
--
Pablo
Bertel Lund Hansen
2010-12-31 10:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii"
Blimey. Someone still posting in 7 bit. How quaint. I thought the whole
usenet world had agreed on utf-8?
My program is set-up to fall back to 7-bit if that is sufficient.
--
Bertel, Denmark
Garrett Wollman
2011-01-01 02:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii"
Blimey. Someone still posting in 7 bit. How quaint. I thought the whole
usenet world had agreed on utf-8?
No. What on Earth gave you that idea?

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Default User
2011-01-01 21:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
Blimey. Someone still posting in 7 bit. How quaint. I thought the
whole usenet world had agreed on utf-8?
My newsreader uses US-ASCII as the default. It has many other encodings
available, and will switch as long as the correct header is set. For
instance, this reply is Unicode (UTF-8) because yours was. I could
change it via a pull-down.

For new messages, I have little need for anything outside of the ASCII
7-bit set. If I did, I would switch.



Brian
--
Day 695 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project.
Current music playing: "Mysteries" (The Yeah Yeah Yeahs)
Pablo
2011-01-02 11:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Pablo
Blimey. Someone still posting in 7 bit. How quaint. I thought the
whole usenet world had agreed on utf-8?
My newsreader uses US-ASCII as the default. It has many other encodings
available, and will switch as long as the correct header is set. For
instance, this reply is Unicode (UTF-8) because yours was. I could
change it via a pull-down.
For new messages, I have little need for anything outside of the ASCII
7-bit set. If I did, I would switch.
You must be american then. Hence the A in ASCII. But what about your
official second language? Don't you occasionally have to write in spanish?
--
Pablo
Garrett Wollman
2011-01-02 16:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
You must be american then. Hence the A in ASCII. But what about your
official second language? Don't you occasionally have to write in spanish?
Um, the United States has no official languages.

(And I, for one, don't know Spanish and for that reason never have
occasion to write in it. Even French, which I do sort of know, is not
something I have much reason to write. (My written French would be
much better were that not so.))

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
James Hogg
2010-12-30 21:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
You might not know the reason -- the nature of your sin --
why you are in a killfile (or maybe more than yin),
while those who are abusive or kooky (a meringue?)
remain unplonked -- there’s no one deserves it more than yangg.
--
James
LFS
2010-12-30 22:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]

If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure the
company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.

Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap who
is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement? If
you've been scrapping with the sci.lang lot, I won't have been reading it.

In fact, I had 24 hours of not reading anything online due to the
ineptitude of Orange. I spent almost 2 hours on the phone to a man in
India who kept telling me to do weird things to my PC and router, some
of which required three hands, and, when none of them worked, told me he
would have to refer to the "ingenious" and this would take at least 48
hours. It took a while for me to realise he was talking about engineers.
He claimed that my login wasn't working but could not explain why it
wouldn't work or what the ingenious engineers might be able to do about it.

I woke up in the wee small hours remembering where the piece of paper
was which showed my login. It bore little resemblance to the one he kept
telling me to type in but it worked perfectly. I am now seeking
recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not follow a script.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
franzi
2010-12-30 23:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup:  I'm in a killfile!  No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa.  No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.  
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning  without expectation
that others will join in.  At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.  
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure the
company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
I'm pretty sure I'm in killfiles -- and if not personally, then by
dint of posting sometimes through Google Groups, which apparently
brings some readers out in hives -- and appreciate that it is a
consequence of the world's finite attention span. Elsewhere, people
pay me for my specialist opinions and advice. Here, the general
readership's and my interests don't necessarily intersect that much.
It adds to efficiency all round if doors are kept closed where
appropriate.
--
Philosophically and objectively yours,
franzi
tsuidf
2011-01-01 02:09:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by franzi
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup:  I'm in a killfile!  No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa.  No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.  
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning  without expectation
that others will join in.  At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.  
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure the
company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
I'm pretty sure I'm in killfiles -- and if not personally, then by
dint of posting sometimes through Google Groups, which apparently
brings some readers out in hives -- and appreciate that it is a
consequence of the world's finite attention span. Elsewhere, people
pay me for my specialist opinions and advice. Here, the general
readership's and my interests don't necessarily intersect that much.
It adds to efficiency all round if doors are kept closed where
appropriate.
--
Philosophically and objectively yours,
franzi-
I was in my own father's killfile for a while -- until I visited him
and demonstrated to him that he *had* one. And he's an engineer.

And no, we hadn't had an argument.

Sigh. <Wry smile>

Happy New Year!

best from very foggy Brussels,
Stephanie
tony cooper
2010-12-30 23:33:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 22:59:42 +0000, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure the
company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap who
is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
Yes, a public flogging. Like the cat, my killfiler materialized most
unexpectedly. Once you catch up with the posts, the mystery will be
unlocked.

I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Maria Conlon
2011-01-02 04:13:20 UTC
Permalink
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has been
around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.

So: Last offer. Yes or No?

Maria, who has two of the T-shirts (which are no longer being made, as far
as I know).
Maria Conlon
2011-01-02 06:34:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.

Maria
tony cooper
2011-01-02 15:19:29 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 01:34:07 -0500, "Maria Conlon"
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
I remain confused by your comment. Not at all an unusual way for me
to be remaining.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Maria Conlon
2011-01-02 18:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
I remain confused by your comment. Not at all an unusual way for me
to be remaining.
Explanation: I thought I had offered you an AUE T-shirt -- no charge, no
strings -- some time ago (in thanks for the stamps for my grandson) and that
you had turned down the offer. However, it occurred to me, after my first
post last night regarding said shirt, that maybe I offered it to someone
else in the group -- and not to you. I do tend to forget things.[1]

Anyway, I do have two AUE T-shirts (thanks to Gary Vass), and need only one.
The extra one is too large for me, and is in better condition than the older
one. (That is, it's not as faded {from washing} as the older one.)

That should unconfuse you. (My spellchecker does not like "unconfuse." Hmm.
"Deconfuse"? "Disconfuse"? "Release you from your confusion"? ) English is
such a persnickety language.

[1] Forgetfulness is a disease I never had until I retired from my job as a
Technical Writer and "Go-to Girl."

It seems that the less I have to remember, the more I forget. (That
statement is free to any and all who wish to use it. For all I know, I may
have "borrowed" it from someone else.)

Happy Twenty-Eleven to all.

Maria Conlon
Thought for the Day:
"I think Congressmen should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we could
identify their corporate sponsors." (Attributed to several people.)
tony cooper
2011-01-02 19:22:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 13:27:09 -0500, "Maria Conlon"
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by tony cooper
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
I remain confused by your comment. Not at all an unusual way for me
to be remaining.
Explanation: I thought I had offered you an AUE T-shirt -- no charge, no
strings -- some time ago (in thanks for the stamps for my grandson) and that
you had turned down the offer. However, it occurred to me, after my first
post last night regarding said shirt, that maybe I offered it to someone
else in the group -- and not to you. I do tend to forget things.[1]
Anyway, I do have two AUE T-shirts (thanks to Gary Vass), and need only one.
The extra one is too large for me, and is in better condition than the older
one. (That is, it's not as faded {from washing} as the older one.)
I don't remember the offer, but I appreciate that you even thought
about making the offer...even if you didn't.

I must decline, though. I don't want to broadcast that I hang out in
a newsgroup. It makes life complicated.

Just the other day I was sitting in a restaurant reading Ian Rankin's
"Fleshmarket Alley" and a man at the next table asked me if it was
about prostitutes. I made the mistake of explaining that the original
title was "Fleshmarket Close" and it is an area of Edinburgh named for
the meat market that once occupied it. Then I had to explain that
"meat market" had nothing to do with a singles bar.

The man then asked how I happened to know these facts, and I tried to
explain that it was a subject of a recent newsgroup thread.
"Newsgroup" was an alien term to him, so the conversation then shifted
to the difference between newsgroups, email, instant messaging, text
messaging, twittering, and tweeting. (I was unable to explain the
last two; I just know I don't do them.)

The whole conversation was most unsatisfactory. I think the man left
thinking that I participate in some online group involving prostitutes
and just didn't want to admit it.
Post by Maria Conlon
It seems that the less I have to remember, the more I forget. (That
statement is free to any and all who wish to use it. For all I know, I may
have "borrowed" it from someone else.)
As I mentioned in another post recently, the bathrooms are the only
rooms in the house that I always remember why I came in.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2011-01-02 20:08:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 14:22:06 -0500, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 13:27:09 -0500, "Maria Conlon"
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by tony cooper
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
I remain confused by your comment. Not at all an unusual way for me
to be remaining.
Explanation: I thought I had offered you an AUE T-shirt -- no charge, no
strings -- some time ago (in thanks for the stamps for my grandson) and that
you had turned down the offer. However, it occurred to me, after my first
post last night regarding said shirt, that maybe I offered it to someone
else in the group -- and not to you. I do tend to forget things.[1]
Anyway, I do have two AUE T-shirts (thanks to Gary Vass), and need only one.
The extra one is too large for me, and is in better condition than the older
one. (That is, it's not as faded {from washing} as the older one.)
I don't remember the offer, but I appreciate that you even thought
about making the offer...even if you didn't.
I must decline, though. I don't want to broadcast that I hang out in
a newsgroup. It makes life complicated.
Just the other day I was sitting in a restaurant reading Ian Rankin's
"Fleshmarket Alley" and a man at the next table asked me if it was
about prostitutes. I made the mistake of explaining that the original
title was "Fleshmarket Close" and it is an area of Edinburgh named for
the meat market that once occupied it. Then I had to explain that
"meat market" had nothing to do with a singles bar.
The man then asked how I happened to know these facts, and I tried to
explain that it was a subject of a recent newsgroup thread.
"Newsgroup" was an alien term to him, so the conversation then shifted
to the difference between newsgroups, email, instant messaging, text
messaging, twittering, and tweeting. (I was unable to explain the
last two; I just know I don't do them.)
The users of Twitter "tweet"(verb).

"Twittering" is used non-users to refer to the use of Twitter.

This has a comment on "tweet":
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0890980#m_en_gb0890980.003

Word trends

Once invoking nothing beyond the sound of birds gently chirping,
tweet is a striking example of the Internet's influence on language
trends. Since the social networking service Twitter was set up in
2006, 'tweeting' (posting short messages, known as tweets, on the
Web) has become so popular that the frequency of the noun tweet in
the Oxford English Corpus has risen tenfold. The millions of people
using Twitter may take themselves and their tweets very seriously,
but the site's name suggests otherwise : the Corpus shows that the
majority of uses of twitter in the sense 'talk rapidly and at
length' imply foolishness or triviality: "two posh English girls
twitter incessantly twittering on about the good old days".
Post by tony cooper
The whole conversation was most unsatisfactory. I think the man left
thinking that I participate in some online group involving prostitutes
and just didn't want to admit it.
Post by Maria Conlon
It seems that the less I have to remember, the more I forget. (That
statement is free to any and all who wish to use it. For all I know, I may
have "borrowed" it from someone else.)
As I mentioned in another post recently, the bathrooms are the only
rooms in the house that I always remember why I came in.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister
2011-01-02 23:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
The man then asked how I happened to know these facts, and I tried to
explain that it was a subject of a recent newsgroup thread.
"Newsgroup" was an alien term to him, so the conversation then shifted
to the difference between newsgroups, email, instant messaging, text
messaging, twittering, and tweeting. (I was unable to explain the
last two; I just know I don't do them.)
One of the Christmas cards I received this year contained two mobile
phone numbers with a request to text the couple with the object of
setting a meeting. Now, although I shared a house with this couple back
in the early 70s, I have rarely seen them since and would like to
arrange a meeting, but I have no idea how to text them. Can I use my
normal telephone? I looked at my Twitter account, thinking that might be
a twittish thing to do, but no luck. Somehow, I have fallen behind or
right out of technology.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2011-01-03 00:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 03 Jan 2011 07:56:05 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by tony cooper
The man then asked how I happened to know these facts, and I tried to
explain that it was a subject of a recent newsgroup thread.
"Newsgroup" was an alien term to him, so the conversation then shifted
to the difference between newsgroups, email, instant messaging, text
messaging, twittering, and tweeting. (I was unable to explain the
last two; I just know I don't do them.)
One of the Christmas cards I received this year contained two mobile
phone numbers with a request to text the couple with the object of
setting a meeting. Now, although I shared a house with this couple back
in the early 70s, I have rarely seen them since and would like to
arrange a meeting, but I have no idea how to text them. Can I use my
normal telephone? I looked at my Twitter account, thinking that might be
a twittish thing to do, but no luck. Somehow, I have fallen behind or
right out of technology.
It is possible to send a text message online or from your computer. I
have never done this so can't offer any recommendations.

Googling for "send text message online" gives websites offering to let
you send text messages free of charge.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Maria Conlon
2011-01-03 00:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
I don't remember the offer, but I appreciate that you even thought
about making the offer...even if you didn't.
I must decline, though. I don't want to broadcast that I hang out in
a newsgroup. It makes life complicated.
That's all right; I know what you mean. Most people just don't "get"
newsgroups or the people who participate in them.
--
Maria Conlon
Peter Brooks
2011-01-03 03:41:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by tony cooper
I don't remember the offer, but I appreciate that you even thought
about making the offer...even if you didn't.
I must decline, though.  I don't want to broadcast that I hang out in
a newsgroup.  It makes life complicated.
That's all right; I know what you mean. Most people just don't "get"
newsgroups or the people who participate in them.
It's easy to explain these days - just tell them that it's facebook,
before facebook was invented, and they get the gist.
Peter Moylan
2011-01-03 03:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Brooks
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by tony cooper
I don't remember the offer, but I appreciate that you even thought
about making the offer...even if you didn't.
I must decline, though. I don't want to broadcast that I hang out in
a newsgroup. It makes life complicated.
That's all right; I know what you mean. Most people just don't "get"
newsgroups or the people who participate in them.
It's easy to explain these days - just tell them that it's facebook,
before facebook was invented, and they get the gist.
You could borrow something from IBM's advertising and call it "a better
Facebook than Facebook".
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
LFS
2011-01-02 18:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
Maria
Hi Maria, good to see you. Hope all is well with you and yours.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Maria Conlon
2011-01-02 18:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Maria Conlon
Post by Maria Conlon
... I get a badge? I never got the tee shirt, so I'd be delighted with a
badge. A scarlet K?
You know full well that one (T-shirt) has been offered, even if it has
been around a while, and is accustomed to having bumps present.
So: Last offer. Yes or No?
Um, maybe the above comment of mine is in error. I may be thinking of
someone else. It is, after all, quite late.
Maria
Hi Maria, good to see you. Hope all is well with you and yours.
All is well, or, at least, "fair to "middlin'" (That's not an unusual
phrase, but I attribute my use of it to a certain Angus McKellar, a
newspaper co-worker of mine back in the 60s. Just thinking about him makes
me realize how many good people I have met in my life, my jobs, and yes, in
my participation in AUE.)

Here's hoping that you and yours are well, too, and will have a
spectacularly good 2011 (and beyond).
--
Maria Conlon
Note: It is impossible to lick your elbow. (Well, maybe Mick Jagger can.)
Mike Barnes
2010-12-31 08:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
You've got me bang to rights, Guv. But I don't go along with the implied
incongruity between "mild-mannered" and "killfile". There's no actual
death involved, just a rational decision reached many years ago that
things work better if I avoid dialogues with Tony.
Post by LFS
[...]
I am now seeking recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not
follow a script.
Good luck in your search. I don't think you'll find anything in the UK
domestic marketplace, so you'll want to look at the low end of the
professional marketplace. If you're serious, people rate Gradwell very
highly: http://www.gradwell.com/
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
LFS
2010-12-31 10:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
You've got me bang to rights, Guv. But I don't go along with the implied
incongruity between "mild-mannered" and "killfile". There's no actual
death involved, just a rational decision reached many years ago that
things work better if I avoid dialogues with Tony.
Fairy nuff. I'm still not sure why public announcements are necessary,
though.

I should like to be able to avoid anything from the weirdos in sci.lang
but some people whose posts I like to read like to engage with them so I
find myself drawn in and occasionally responding to particularly
egregious idiocies. I always end up kicking myself. It would be easier
if I had an automatic metaphorical kicker that would stop me in advance.
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
[...]
I am now seeking recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not
follow a script.
Good luck in your search. I don't think you'll find anything in the UK
domestic marketplace, so you'll want to look at the low end of the
professional marketplace. If you're serious, people rate Gradwell very
highly: http://www.gradwell.com/
Thanks for the tip, could be useful for Son even if not for me.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mike Barnes
2010-12-31 12:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
You've got me bang to rights, Guv. But I don't go along with the implied
incongruity between "mild-mannered" and "killfile". There's no actual
death involved, just a rational decision reached many years ago that
things work better if I avoid dialogues with Tony.
Fairy nuff. I'm still not sure why public announcements are necessary,
though.
It wasn't so much of a public announcement as an explanation of a long-
standing situation. No big deal, and I guess I could have done it by e-
mail, but I thought that Tony and I were almost alone in that corner of
the thread, and anyone who was still following us might appreciate an
explanation of why it stopped so abruptly.

But now that you mention it, I note that Tony went out of his way to
make it all very public indeed, and I find myself wondering, vaguely,
why he did that.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
LFS
2010-12-31 14:00:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
You've got me bang to rights, Guv. But I don't go along with the implied
incongruity between "mild-mannered" and "killfile". There's no actual
death involved, just a rational decision reached many years ago that
things work better if I avoid dialogues with Tony.
Fairy nuff. I'm still not sure why public announcements are necessary,
though.
It wasn't so much of a public announcement as an explanation of a long-
standing situation. No big deal, and I guess I could have done it by e-
mail, but I thought that Tony and I were almost alone in that corner of
the thread, and anyone who was still following us might appreciate an
explanation of why it stopped so abruptly.
But now that you mention it, I note that Tony went out of his way to
make it all very public indeed, and I find myself wondering, vaguely,
why he did that.
Well, there's very little happening around here at the moment. And Mr C
does like to stir things up a bit.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
2011-01-02 11:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by LFS
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
You've got me bang to rights, Guv. But I don't go along with the implied
incongruity between "mild-mannered" and "killfile". There's no actual
death involved, just a rational decision reached many years ago that
things work better if I avoid dialogues with Tony.
Fairy nuff. I'm still not sure why public announcements are necessary,
though.
I should like to be able to avoid anything from the weirdos in sci.lang
but some people whose posts I like to read like to engage with them so I
find myself drawn in and occasionally responding to particularly
egregious idiocies. I always end up kicking myself. It would be easier
if I had an automatic metaphorical kicker that would stop me in advance.
FWIW, I filter out all messages that are cross-posted to/from sci.lang. I
know it means missing the occasional post of interest, but any value I got
from reading those threads was never, ever worth the sheer avalanche of
blathering crud in them.

Anyway, hope everyone has a good 2011; my single resolution is to switch
completely to "twenty-", and to stop even thinking of the possibility of
"two thousand and".
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2010-12-31 10:46:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure
the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
Post by LFS
If you've been scrapping with the sci.lang lot, I won't have been reading it.
In fact, I had 24 hours of not reading anything online due to the
ineptitude of Orange. I spent almost 2 hours on the phone to a man in
India who kept telling me to do weird things to my PC and router, some
of which required three hands, and, when none of them worked, told me
he would have to refer to the "ingenious" and this would take at least
48 hours. It took a while for me to realise he was talking about
engineers. He claimed that my login wasn't working but could not
explain why it wouldn't work or what the ingenious engineers might be
able to do about it.
I woke up in the wee small hours remembering where the piece of paper
was which showed my login. It bore little resemblance to the one he
kept telling me to type in but it worked perfectly. I am now seeking
recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not follow a script.
--
athel
the Omrud
2010-12-31 10:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure
the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart). I
now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
--
David
LFS
2010-12-31 10:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure
the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart). I
now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
Indeed, you were the mild-mannered chap I was thinking of, since I
thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
2010-12-31 11:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure
the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge with
pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart). I
now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
Indeed, you were the mild-mannered chap I was thinking of, since I
thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Goodness, no, he's far to the East of me; very close to Derbyshire I think.
--
David
Django Cat
2010-12-31 18:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by LFS
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's
not some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered
for effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I
don't think there's any expectation that others will join
in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but
I'm sure the company in such a place would be illustrious.
Wear your badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a
mild-mannered chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was
this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
Indeed, you were the mild-mannered chap I was thinking of, since I
thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Goodness, no, he's far to the East of me; very close to Derbyshire I think.
Ah...

--
Mike Barnes
2010-12-31 12:00:33 UTC
Permalink
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.

Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2010-12-31 13:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
I tend to forget that there is a hilly bit. When I lived in Hale the
hills didn't seem much in evidence (apart from Alderley Edge). My
mother used to complain what a struggle it was getting up the hill
through the main shopping street of Hale on a bicycle, but I was never
sure which was the top end and which was the bottom end.
--
athel
Mike Barnes
2010-12-31 13:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
I tend to forget that there is a hilly bit. When I lived in Hale the
hills didn't seem much in evidence (apart from Alderley Edge). My
mother used to complain what a struggle it was getting up the hill
through the main shopping street of Hale on a bicycle, but I was never
sure which was the top end and which was the bottom end.
You wouldn't have that problem here :-)

There are five roads leading to this locality and I need to use my
bike's lowest gear on all of them.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2011-01-01 10:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
I tend to forget that there is a hilly bit. When I lived in Hale the
hills didn't seem much in evidence (apart from Alderley Edge). My
mother used to complain what a struggle it was getting up the hill
through the main shopping street of Hale on a bicycle, but I was never
sure which was the top end and which was the bottom end.
You wouldn't have that problem here :-)
There are five roads leading to this locality and I need to use my
bike's lowest gear on all of them.
There is nothing to suggest that Evan is reading this thread, but, if
you are, this might be a moment to remind everyone of your map showing
where posters live. I can't do that myself because I've lost the URL,
but I suppose it's still valid.
--
athel
LFS
2011-01-01 11:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mike Barnes
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
I tend to forget that there is a hilly bit. When I lived in Hale the
hills didn't seem much in evidence (apart from Alderley Edge). My
mother used to complain what a struggle it was getting up the hill
through the main shopping street of Hale on a bicycle, but I was never
sure which was the top end and which was the bottom end.
You wouldn't have that problem here :-)
There are five roads leading to this locality and I need to use my
bike's lowest gear on all of them.
There is nothing to suggest that Evan is reading this thread, but, if
you are, this might be a moment to remind everyone of your map showing
where posters live. I can't do that myself because I've lost the URL,
but I suppose it's still valid.
This may work: http://tinyurl.com/6n99s3
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2011-01-01 15:04:25 UTC
Permalink
[ ... ]
Post by LFS
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is nothing to suggest that Evan is reading this thread, but, if
you are, this might be a moment to remind everyone of your map showing
where posters live. I can't do that myself because I've lost the URL,
but I suppose it's still valid.
This may work: http://tinyurl.com/6n99s3
Yes, it does. Thanks. Maybe posters who've joined in the past two years
(or who were taking leave of absence during the latter part of 2008)
may like to ask Evan to add them.

Anyway, this seems to confirm that there are only three posters known
to be located in Cheshire.
--
athel
LFS
2010-12-31 13:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
Well, geography was never my strong point. And the only sig I ever read
is Bob's.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Robin Bignall
2010-12-31 22:00:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 12:00:33 +0000, Mike Barnes
Post by Mike Barnes
I thought that the other mild-mannered chap lived in Lancashire.
Certainly not. David lives in the flat bit of Cheshire and I live in the
hilly bit.
Perhaps I should make my sig a bit bigger.
Spelling it C^h^e^s^h^i^r^e will achieve that and remind us of the
hills.
--
Robin Bignall
(BrE)
Herts, England
Nick
2010-12-31 11:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart).
I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
Going as far as Kent seems excessive.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Django Cat
2010-12-31 14:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not
some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for
effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I don't
think there's any expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm
sure the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your
badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered
chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public
announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart).
I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in Cheshire
this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...

DC

--
LFS
2010-12-31 14:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not
some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for
effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I don't
think there's any expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm
sure the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your
badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered
chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public
announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart).
I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in Cheshire
this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...

So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they are
all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2010-12-31 17:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not
some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for
effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I don't
think there's any expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm
sure the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your
badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered
chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public
announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart).
I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in Cheshire
this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they are
all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
Can't always tell, though. Today I received a referee's report from
someone I asked to adjudicate between the two most divergent reports I
can ever remember reading. Despite the fact that she's one of the
mildest-mannered people you could hope to meet she sent a very fierce
report (rightly, as it happens, i.e. she confirmed what I thought).
--
athel
Django Cat
2010-12-31 18:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's
not some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered
for effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I
don't think there's any expectation that others will join
in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but
I'm sure the company in such a place would be illustrious.
Wear your badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a
mild-mannered chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was
this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
Well, I did, but it's an interesting slip... possibly I was thinking of
the strange 'I could care less'...

Have a Good New Year, Laura


DC
--
LFS
2010-12-31 19:16:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by LFS
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
On 2010-12-30 23:59:42 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's
not some sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered
for effecting my demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the
origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I
don't think there's any expectation that others will join
in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but
I'm sure the company in such a place would be illustrious.
Wear your badge with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a
mild-mannered chap who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was
this a public announcement?
That was exactly my reaction! However, it appears from his later
comments that it was indeed the mild-mannered chap.
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
Well, I did, but it's an interesting slip... possibly I was thinking of
the strange 'I could care less'...
Have a Good New Year, Laura
And you, Viv. And everyone else, too.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
James Hogg
2010-12-31 19:30:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Django Cat
Have a Good New Year, Laura
And you, Viv. And everyone else, too.
From me to all as well.
--
James
Andrew B.
2010-12-31 22:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they are
all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire, and you haven't (AFAIK) met
me. However, I don't live in Cheshire.
LFS
2010-12-31 23:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they are
all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire, and you haven't (AFAIK) met
me. However, I don't live in Cheshire.
We have no evidence of your mild-manneredness and if you're just passing
through I'm afraid you don't count. Sorry. Any other applicants?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Django Cat
2011-01-01 10:12:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they
are all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire,
That's a great line for a song. Where's me mandolin? "Ohhh....."
Post by Andrew B.
and you haven't (AFAIK) met
me. However, I don't live in Cheshire.
Does this mean you're only mild mannered when in Cheshire and go all
Incredible Hulk when you cross the border?

DC

--
James Hogg
2011-01-01 14:35:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they
are all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire,
That's a great line for a song. Where's me mandolin? "Ohhh....."
Or the start of a limerick:

A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
--
James
Katy Jennison
2011-01-01 15:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hogg
Post by Django Cat
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they
are all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire,
That's a great line for a song. Where's me mandolin? "Ohhh....."
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
--
Katy Jennison
James Hogg
2011-01-01 16:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by James Hogg
Post by Django Cat
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they
are all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire,
That's a great line for a song. Where's me mandolin? "Ohhh....."
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
Precisely. I was thinking it should end with "fresher", a word we
discussed recently, albeit in a different sense.
--
James
Katy Jennison
2011-01-01 18:09:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hogg
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by James Hogg
Post by Django Cat
Post by Andrew B.
Post by LFS
I assume you mean "wouldn't"...
So: we have three mild-mannered posters in Cheshire and I know they
are all mild-mannered as I have met them all.
I'm a mild-mannered poster in Cheshire,
That's a great line for a song. Where's me mandolin? "Ohhh....."
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
Precisely. I was thinking it should end with "fresher", a word we
discussed recently, albeit in a different sense.
The choice struck me as limited. Given the mild and bitter, I
contemplated "Thresher".
--
Katy Jennison
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
2011-01-01 19:00:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by James Hogg
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher

Indent lines 3 and 4, s.v.p.
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
Ce qui n'est pas clair n'est pas français.
Katy Jennison
2011-01-01 19:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by James Hogg
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher
Indent lines 3 and 4, s.v.p.
Sorry! I had intended to, but, well, it didn't happen.
--
Katy Jennison
R H Draney
2011-01-02 00:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by James Hogg
A mild-mannered poster from Cheshire
would not killfile except under pressure
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher.
Till a message from Coop
Threw him for a loop
And his "mild" became "bitter" and fresher
Indent lines 3 and 4, s.v.p.
Sorry! I had intended to, but, well, it didn't happen.
Some newsreaders make it very difficult to post lines with blanks at the
beginning....r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
the Omrud
2010-12-31 15:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far apart).
I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and where I should
change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in Cheshire
this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
--
David
Django Cat
2010-12-31 18:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
I know, I have the same feeling, but right now it's the winter doldrums
and I'm back at base in Broady.

Have a great 2011, David.

DC

--
the Omrud
2011-01-01 09:57:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
I know, I have the same feeling, but right now it's the winter doldrums
and I'm back at base in Broady.
Have a great 2011, David.
Happy New Year to you and to everybody else.

We're off to the Royal Exchange this evening for a comforting Manchester
play, "Zack" by Harold Brighouse. I must be getting old as I saw the
last production which was about 30 years ago.
--
David
tsuidf
2011-01-02 10:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart).  I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
I know, I have the same feeling, but right now it's the winter doldrums
and I'm back at base in Broady.
Have a great 2011, David.
Happy New Year to you and to everybody else.
We're off to the Royal Exchange this evening for a comforting Manchester
play, "Zack" by Harold Brighouse.  I must be getting old as I saw the
last production which was about 30 years ago.
The Royal Exchange is one of my favourite places, hope the production
was enjoyable!
the Omrud
2011-01-02 11:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by tsuidf
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart). I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
I know, I have the same feeling, but right now it's the winter doldrums
and I'm back at base in Broady.
Have a great 2011, David.
Happy New Year to you and to everybody else.
We're off to the Royal Exchange this evening for a comforting Manchester
play, "Zack" by Harold Brighouse. I must be getting old as I saw the
last production which was about 30 years ago.
The Royal Exchange is one of my favourite places, hope the production
was enjoyable!
Excellent, thanks. Zack was portrayed with great affection and not, as
sometimes happens, as a simpleton. All NW RRs should rush to the
production.

I discover that it was 34 years ago that I last saw the play in the
Royal Excange.
--
David
tsuidf
2011-01-02 18:26:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by tsuidf
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
Post by Django Cat
Post by the Omrud
There are two of us in Cheshire, you know (although far, far
apart).  I now am unsure whether I'm mild mannered or not, and
where I should change into my Clark Kent uniform.
I make it three, but only just; 50 yards down the road is the River
Etherow, and the other side is Derbyshire, but we're still in
Cheshire this side. I would dream of killfiling TC, though...
I didn't know you were back in the NW - you move around too much to be sure.
I know, I have the same feeling, but right now it's the winter doldrums
and I'm back at base in Broady.
Have a great 2011, David.
Happy New Year to you and to everybody else.
We're off to the Royal Exchange this evening for a comforting Manchester
play, "Zack" by Harold Brighouse.  I must be getting old as I saw the
last production which was about 30 years ago.
The Royal Exchange is one of my favourite places, hope the production
was enjoyable!
Excellent, thanks.  Zack was portrayed with great affection and not, as
sometimes happens, as a simpleton.  All NW RRs should rush to the
production.
I discover that it was 34 years ago that I last saw the play in the
Royal Excange.
Note to self: must allow more time on next visit to NW so as to fit
in theatre, etc, as well as visits to friends and family.

A Royal Exchange-based boink perhaps...??

Glad it was good!

cheers,
Stephanie
Django Cat
2010-12-31 14:42:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise. It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire
(the origin of my ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning
without expectation that others will join in. At least, I don't
think there's any expectation that others will join in.
[..]
If anyone has me in their killfile I know nothing of it but I'm sure
the company in such a place would be illustrious. Wear your badge
with pride, Mr C.
Cheshire? The only Cheshire poster I know of is a mild-mannered chap
who is most unlikely to killfile you. Was this a public announcement?
If you've been scrapping with the sci.lang lot, I won't have been
reading it.
In fact, I had 24 hours of not reading anything online due to the
ineptitude of Orange. I spent almost 2 hours on the phone to a man in
India who kept telling me to do weird things to my PC and router,
some of which required three hands, and, when none of them worked,
told me he would have to refer to the "ingenious" and this would take
at least 48 hours. It took a while for me to realise he was talking
about engineers. He claimed that my login wasn't working but could
not explain why it wouldn't work or what the ingenious engineers
might be able to do about it.
I woke up in the wee small hours remembering where the piece of paper
was which showed my login. It bore little resemblance to the one he
kept telling me to type in but it worked perfectly. I am now seeking
recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not follow a script.
Not Virgin. It took me three weeks of calls before it finally became
apparent that they'd set me up with a password based on my first name -
and spelt that name wrongly (but in a form that was vaguely similar to
the Indian name Vivak...)

DC
--
Cheryl
2010-12-31 19:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Django Cat
Not Virgin. It took me three weeks of calls before it finally became
apparent that they'd set me up with a password based on my first name -
and spelt that name wrongly (but in a form that was vaguely similar to
the Indian name Vivak...)
DC
One place I deal with a lot assigns emails using the common
***@business.com method. I had been dealing over the
phone with a woman with slightly unusual name, and foolishly tried to
guess at her email address. It didn't work. I phoned up, and she told me
that she spelled her name in an unusual way, which she gave me. This
didn't work, either. Next call, she mentioned that the IT people who set
up her email didn't know how to spell her first name either, so she had
yet a third spelling (as it happens, quite as improbable as the real
one, but not, of course, the same).

That one worked. There were times I wish they'd gone back to the old
random letters and numbers email addresses because this system gives you
the false impression that it's easy to figure out someone's email address.
--
Cheryl
Garrett Wollman
2011-01-01 02:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
One place I deal with a lot assigns emails using the common
Eric Allman (IIRC) published an essay a couple of decades ago about
Why This Is Not A Very Good Idea.

Notably, Bell Labs had two people named Stephen R. Bourne.

They both left Bell and went to work for SGI at about the same time.

All right-thinking organizations have users pick their own login name
and use that for email too.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
***@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Django Cat
2011-01-01 10:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Cheryl
One place I deal with a lot assigns emails using the common
Eric Allman (IIRC) published an essay a couple of decades ago about
Why This Is Not A Very Good Idea.
Notably, Bell Labs had two people named Stephen R. Bourne.
They both left Bell and went to work for SGI at about the same time.
All right-thinking organizations have users pick their own login name
and use that for email too.
Not a 'right-thinking organization' definitely fits my experience of
Virgin Media - not on my list of recommended UK ISPs, for sure.

DC
--
HVS
2011-01-02 12:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Cheryl
One place I deal with a lot assigns emails using the common
Eric Allman (IIRC) published an essay a couple of decades ago about
Why This Is Not A Very Good Idea.
Notably, Bell Labs had two people named Stephen R. Bourne.
They both left Bell and went to work for SGI at about the same time.
All right-thinking organizations have users pick their own login name
and use that for email too.
The dumbest system I've seen was a small company that used "first name +
surname initial". Presumably that there were no duplicate "***@x.com"
addresses when they set it up, and they didn't anticipate ever having John
Smith and John Stevens working for them at the same time.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Amethyst Deceiver
2011-01-02 10:41:36 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 30 Dec 2010 22:59:42 +0000, LFS
Post by LFS
I woke up in the wee small hours remembering where the piece of paper
was which showed my login. It bore little resemblance to the one he kept
telling me to type in but it worked perfectly. I am now seeking
recommendations for ISPs whose technical staff do not follow a script.
Zen internet!
http://www.zen.co.uk/
Vinny Burgoo
2010-12-30 23:51:46 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
--
VB
tony cooper
2010-12-31 01:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.

The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Irwell
2010-12-31 02:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
I was banned from DPReview because someone took exception to
my posting information, that if one does a Google search of
DSC0001, it will come up with images of the first shot that
people have done with their Sony cameras.

One of the first shots included a lady and her bare breasts,
some old (maybe young) prig was probably bottle fed.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2010-12-31 09:46:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irwell
I was banned from DPReview because someone took exception to
my posting information, that if one does a Google search of
DSC0001, it will come up with images of the first shot that
people have done with their Sony cameras.
Cute idea. If you search for IM000001, you'll get pictures from
an HP-camera.
--
Bertel, Denmark
HVS
2011-01-02 12:08:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Irwell
I was banned from DPReview because someone took exception to
my posting information, that if one does a Google search of
DSC0001, it will come up with images of the first shot that
people have done with their Sony cameras.
Cute idea. If you search for IM000001, you'll get pictures from
an HP-camera.
P1000001 for Panasonic. Extremely boring collection of images from a Bing
search, though, even with "safe search" turned off.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2011-01-02 17:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Irwell
I was banned from DPReview because someone took exception to
my posting information, that if one does a Google search of
DSC0001, it will come up with images of the first shot that
people have done with their Sony cameras.
Cute idea. If you search for IM000001, you'll get pictures from
an HP-camera.
P1000001 for Panasonic. Extremely boring collection of images from a Bing
search, though, even with "safe search" turned off.
You're not excited by pictures of drainage trenches in Estonia, I take it?
--
athel
the Omrud
2010-12-31 10:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
"queue". Is the word so unusual in AmE that the spelling is not well
known? And we'd probably say "on the right".
--
David
tony cooper
2010-12-31 14:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
"queue". Is the word so unusual in AmE that the spelling is not well
known? And we'd probably say "on the right".
It is not a commonly used word by Americans, but not an unknown word.
Careful Americans would probably look the word up for proper spelling
rather than post in error as I did.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
John Varela
2010-12-31 22:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
"queue". Is the word so unusual in AmE that the spelling is not well
known? And we'd probably say "on the right".
It's common enough among OR and software people.
--
John Varela
CDB
2010-12-31 14:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
<obligingly> Que?
the Omrud
2010-12-31 15:32:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
<obligingly> Que?
Are you from Barcelona?
--
David
CDB
2010-12-31 15:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by Vinny Burgoo
[...]
Post by tony cooper
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone,
No, it's not.
Post by tony cooper
so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.
Oh well.
I will revise that and say that this is the first time I've been
locked out and been informed that I was.
The line forms at the right. Otherponders may que at the right.
<obligingly> Que?
Are you from Barcelona?
De vez en cuando.
J. J. Lodder
2010-12-31 10:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Big news about the newsgroup: I'm in a killfile! No, it's not some
sort of online fatwa. No reward has been offered for effecting my
demise.
It's sorta like being sent to Coventry from Cheshire (the origin of my
ouster) except that it's a one-on-one shunning without expectation
that others will join in. At least, I don't think there's any
expectation that others will join in.
When someone places you in their killfile, that someone sets their
newsgroup reader to ignore any posts that you originate.
More correctly: marks automatically as having been read.
It is still there.
Post by tony cooper
It's not all
that effective since whatever you post still shows up on the
killfiler's screen when your posts have responses.
Not necessarily. More capable newsreaders can automagically
kill all follow-up to a killed article too.
Post by tony cooper
It's sorta like
being in a group and telling one member of the group "I'm not
listening to you‰, but remaining in the group where you can still hear
the conversation...the on-screen version of covering your ears and
going "woo, woo, woo‰.
Not quite.
Basically a kill file is a reading aid for the owner.
All it does is saving on manual pushes on the - button.
It is a private matter, and posting about it is bad manners.
Post by tony cooper
Lack of effectiveness aside, the real import of killfiling is to tell
the person that they are being killfiled. It's supposed to cow them.
In this case, I've been in that killfile for several years, but only
recently been officially notified. The notification is the real woo,
woo, woo; the thumbs in the ear wiggle that makes the statement.
This is the first time I've been locked out by someone, so I'm not
sure what I'm supposed to do. I do know that I shouldn't bet that
others will be locked out the same way, though.
Perhaps I should retaliate like the big boys do. When Chavez kicked
out our ambassador, we kicked out their ambassador. This might be
appropriate because expelling ambassadors is just as ineffectual as
killfiling, but the chest has been publicly thumped. The problem is,
of course, that I can't tell this person that he's been killfiled by
me because his first-strike action shields him from notification.
Wouldn't do it anyway, though.
Why descend to his level?
Post by tony cooper
Not much else going on in the newsgroup, Sis, other than a number of
posts that have been informative about which authors to be avoided in
the future. Well, there have been a lot of posts that have something
to do with encoding, some about God, gods, and the end of the world,
and the usual nonsense from the sci.lang mob.
Now there a kill-file does have its uses.
You can simply block all crosspost,
or all crosspost from a given group,

Jan
--
"Kill-files are for the weak-willed."
Nick Spalding
2010-12-31 11:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
When someone places you in their killfile, that someone sets their
newsgroup reader to ignore any posts that you originate. It's not all
that effective since whatever you post still shows up on the
killfiler's screen when your posts have responses. It's sorta like
being in a group and telling one member of the group “I'm not
listening to you”, but remaining in the group where you can still hear
the conversation...the on-screen version of covering your ears and
going “woo, woo, woo”.
Since version 4 Agent has had 'Ignore Subthread' so that a killfile can
operate on any responses to the target poster as well as to the poster
itself.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
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