Discussion:
Passports and profession
(too old to reply)
occam
2018-12-24 17:17:46 UTC
Permalink
There was a time when passports used to state the profession of the
holder. I distinctly remember my first (old format) British passport
showing 'Student' as my first occupation. I do not know exactly when,
but this habit got discontinued when Britain adopted the EU style passport.


Q1 - Why was 'profession' there in the first place
Q2- Will it make a reappearance when blue passports are re-introduced
Sam Plusnet
2018-12-24 20:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
There was a time when passports used to state the profession of the
holder. I distinctly remember my first (old format) British passport
showing 'Student' as my first occupation. I do not know exactly when,
but this habit got discontinued when Britain adopted the EU style passport.
Q1 - Why was 'profession' there in the first place
Q2- Will it make a reappearance when blue passports are re-introduced
1. Someone thought it a good idea. "Is there a doctor on board?" etc.

2. Probably not. Today everyone seems to have to change profession
several times during their working life, and many occupation titles now
seem designed to be obscure.

When my father joined the Royal Navy in the spring of 1939, the
paperwork had an entry "Trade brought up to".
If your father was an itinerant ice-cream seller, then no doubt you too
were destined for that role.
--
Sam Plusnet
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-12-25 00:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by occam
There was a time when passports used to state the profession of the
holder. I distinctly remember my first (old format) British passport
showing 'Student' as my first occupation. I do not know exactly when,
but this habit got discontinued when Britain adopted the EU style passport.
Q1 - Why was 'profession' there in the first place
Q2- Will it make a reappearance when blue passports are re-introduced
1. Someone thought it a good idea. "Is there a doctor on board?" etc.
Well yes. But more a case of professional qualifications being recognised
outside the country that granted them. It's one thing to ask if a doctor is
present but another to ensure that whoever volunteers actually is one!
Post by Sam Plusnet
2. Probably not. Today everyone seems to have to change profession
several times during their working life, and many occupation titles now
seem designed to be obscure.
There is even now provision for certain professions to be included as an
official note on EU passports and presumably that will be retained.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-25 10:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by occam
There was a time when passports used to state the profession of the
holder. I distinctly remember my first (old format) British passport
showing 'Student' as my first occupation. I do not know exactly when,
but this habit got discontinued when Britain adopted the EU style passport.
Q1 - Why was 'profession' there in the first place
Q2- Will it make a reappearance when blue passports are re-introduced
1. Someone thought it a good idea. "Is there a doctor on board?" etc.
You're opening an old wound! I still get cross when I think of the
snooty woman in the British Consulate in San Francisco who wouldn't
allow me to prefix my name with Dr.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Well yes. But more a case of professional qualifications being recognised
outside the country that granted them. It's one thing to ask if a doctor is
present but another to ensure that whoever volunteers actually is one!
Post by Sam Plusnet
2. Probably not. Today everyone seems to have to change profession
several times during their working life, and many occupation titles now
seem designed to be obscure.
There is even now provision for certain professions to be included as an
official note on EU passports and presumably that will be retained.
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that her
name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they solved
it with an official note that shows her name in full.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2018-12-25 11:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You're opening an old wound! I still get cross when I think of the
snooty woman in the British Consulate in San Francisco who wouldn't
allow me to prefix my name with Dr.
Shortly after I got my PhD, a GP said to me "I see that you're a proper
doctor".

I abused the title not long afterwards, when I used the Dr prefix when
applying for a telephone. In those days, it could take several weeks to
get a telephone connected, and I managed to jump the queue.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2018-12-25 16:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that her
name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they solved
it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s).
When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for direct debits
and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no account could
possibly include more than 18 characters.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-26 03:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that her
name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they solved
it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s).
When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for direct debits
and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no account could
possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
charles
2018-12-26 10:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for
direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no
account could possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-26 11:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for
direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no
account could possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Likewise.

I'm pretty sure I had both a name and a number when I had an account at
the Central Valley National Bank in Berkeley. It was a long time ago,
but I'm still surprised that PTD doesn't have a name. Maybe he'd like
to live in Switzerland, but you need to have a lot of money before they
let you have a numbered account.

Next month I'm going to transfer some money to my daughters in the USA.
Both of their accounts have names attached, one in California and the
other in Colorado. Maybe it's just in New Jersey that accounts are
anonymous -- something to do with the Mafia, perhaps.
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2018-12-26 13:53:35 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 12:08:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for
direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no
account could possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Likewise.
I'm pretty sure I had both a name and a number when I had an account at
the Central Valley National Bank in Berkeley. It was a long time ago,
but I'm still surprised that PTD doesn't have a name. Maybe he'd like
to live in Switzerland, but you need to have a lot of money before they
let you have a numbered account.
Next month I'm going to transfer some money to my daughters in the USA.
Both of their accounts have names attached, one in California and the
other in Colorado. Maybe it's just in New Jersey that accounts are
anonymous -- something to do with the Mafia, perhaps.
I'm not sure what this is all about. When I access my bank accounts
online I enter the account number and my designated password. No
names. When I make a deposit or a withdrawal at the bank, they can
look up my account by name. I don't have to know the account numbers.
I do have to show identification.

So that means online it's number only, but at the bank it can be name
only. The name is linked to the number and the number is linked to
the name, but in no case do *I* have to provide name *and* number.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
charles
2018-12-26 14:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 12:08:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the
'account name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no
problem in the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account
name, for direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to
assume that no account could possibly include more than 18
characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Likewise.
I'm pretty sure I had both a name and a number when I had an account at
the Central Valley National Bank in Berkeley. It was a long time ago,
but I'm still surprised that PTD doesn't have a name. Maybe he'd like
to live in Switzerland, but you need to have a lot of money before they
let you have a numbered account.
Next month I'm going to transfer some money to my daughters in the USA.
Both of their accounts have names attached, one in California and the
other in Colorado. Maybe it's just in New Jersey that accounts are
anonymous -- something to do with the Mafia, perhaps.
I'm not sure what this is all about. When I access my bank accounts
online I enter the account number and my designated password. No names.
When I make a deposit or a withdrawal at the bank, they can look up my
account by name. I don't have to know the account numbers. I do have to
show identification.
So that means online it's number only, but at the bank it can be name
only. The name is linked to the number and the number is linked to the
name, but in no case do *I* have to provide name *and* number.
If I have to send a payment electronically to somebody else, I am asked for
both the name of the account and its mumber. The helps to ensure I've
typed in the correct number; we have 8 digit accoun numbers and I'm sure
it's easy to get the number wrong.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-26 15:02:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 12:08:23 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the
'account name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no
problem in the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account
name, for direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to
assume that no account could possibly include more than 18
characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Likewise.
I'm pretty sure I had both a name and a number when I had an account at
the Central Valley National Bank in Berkeley. It was a long time ago,
but I'm still surprised that PTD doesn't have a name. Maybe he'd like
to live in Switzerland, but you need to have a lot of money before they
let you have a numbered account.
Next month I'm going to transfer some money to my daughters in the USA.
Both of their accounts have names attached, one in California and the
other in Colorado. Maybe it's just in New Jersey that accounts are
anonymous -- something to do with the Mafia, perhaps.
I'm not sure what this is all about. When I access my bank accounts
online I enter the account number and my designated password. No names.
When I make a deposit or a withdrawal at the bank, they can look up my
account by name. I don't have to know the account numbers. I do have to
show identification.
So that means online it's number only, but at the bank it can be name
only. The name is linked to the number and the number is linked to the
name, but in no case do *I* have to provide name *and* number.
If I have to send a payment electronically to somebody else, I am asked for
both the name of the account and its mumber. The helps to ensure I've
typed in the correct number; we have 8 digit accoun numbers and I'm sure
it's easy to get the number wrong.
Mine is a 12-digit checking account number preceded by a 9-digit routing
number. For those that get regular payments, neither needs to be entered
more than once, since when I sign in with name and password, the machine
retrieves the data showing only the last four digits for confirmation.
When I make a purchase, some retailers retain the information (most let
me have more than one credit card on file), some require it all to be
entered anew each time.

When I've been paid for a job by an institution in Europe, the matter of
"routing number" confuses, because they don't use that label for anything,
but eventually they figure out what the local equivalent is.
Ken Blake
2018-12-26 16:02:36 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 14:16:21 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
If I have to send a payment electronically to somebody else, I am asked for
both the name of the account and its mumber. The helps to ensure I've
typed in the correct number; we have 8 digit accoun numbers and I'm sure
it's easy to get the number wrong.
I make almost all my payments electronically. I do it through Quicken,
which then does it through my bank. I don't have to provide either the
name or number of the account, since Quicken already has that info.

If the payment is to someplace I've made payments before, I only have
to provide its name (or usually just the first couple of characters of
its name). The only time I need a name and number is for someplace
I've never made an electronic payment before.

There are three wonderful things about using Quicken for this:

1. Doing this automatically creates an entry in my check register. I
don't have to reenter the same info the way you would if you did it on
the bank's web site.

2. A payment to a major company is made by electronic funds transfer.
But I can also make payments the same way to very small companies and
individuals. If I do that, the bank mails a check, so I don't have to
pay for a stamp.

3. I can schedule the payment to made at some date in the future, so
if payment isn't due now, when I get the bill I can schedule payment
to be made when it's due, and not have to remember to pay it then.
Tony Cooper
2018-12-26 16:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 14:16:21 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
If I have to send a payment electronically to somebody else, I am asked for
both the name of the account and its mumber. The helps to ensure I've
typed in the correct number; we have 8 digit accoun numbers and I'm sure
it's easy to get the number wrong.
I make almost all my payments electronically. I do it through Quicken,
which then does it through my bank. I don't have to provide either the
name or number of the account, since Quicken already has that info.
If the payment is to someplace I've made payments before, I only have
to provide its name (or usually just the first couple of characters of
its name). The only time I need a name and number is for someplace
I've never made an electronic payment before.
1. Doing this automatically creates an entry in my check register. I
don't have to reenter the same info the way you would if you did it on
the bank's web site.
I don't use Quicken. I pay all bills using my bank's online "BillPay"
system. Once I enter an account to pay (name, address, account
number), I don't have to enter that account information again. When I
pay the bill, I enter the amount and the date the check is to be
delivered on a pop-up list of accounts. I can enter that today and
have the check sent at any future time.
Post by Ken Blake
2. A payment to a major company is made by electronic funds transfer.
But I can also make payments the same way to very small companies and
individuals. If I do that, the bank mails a check, so I don't have to
pay for a stamp.
Same with my bank's BillPay system.
Post by Ken Blake
3. I can schedule the payment to made at some date in the future, so
if payment isn't due now, when I get the bill I can schedule payment
to be made when it's due, and not have to remember to pay it then.
Same with my bank's BillPay system.

I keep my check register in a spreadsheet.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-26 14:57:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for
direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no
account could possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Likewise.
I'm pretty sure I had both a name and a number when I had an account at
the Central Valley National Bank in Berkeley. It was a long time ago,
but I'm still surprised that PTD doesn't have a name. Maybe he'd like
to live in Switzerland, but you need to have a lot of money before they
let you have a numbered account.
I'm surprised that you don't understand the meaning of "rather than,"
whereas charles did.

Of course a name or names is attached to each account, with a signature
on file, which is used in signing checks; but no name is entered when
making an electronic transfer of funds, and aside from what might fit
on a credit card, so that it might be truncated, there doesn't seem to be
a limit on its length.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Next month I'm going to transfer some money to my daughters in the USA.
Both of their accounts have names attached, one in California and the
other in Colorado. Maybe it's just in New Jersey that accounts are
anonymous -- something to do with the Mafia, perhaps.
You've been taking Tony Cooper lessons -- in both illiteracy and bigotry.
Sam Plusnet
2018-12-26 20:28:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The UK Passport Office did a lot of huffing and puffing before they
would issue a new passport to my wife in 2016. The problem was that
her name is too long to fit in the space available. Eventually they
solved it with an official note that shows her name in full.
We have that problem with our joint bank account. Since the 'account
name' include both our names in full, it is quite long (no problem in
the 1970s). When it is necessary now to quote the account name, for
direct debits and the like, many computer forms seem to assume that no
account could possibly include more than 18 characters.
An account having a name rather than a number strikes the American as odd.
we have both - it helps as a security check.
Accounts are identified by three discrete pieces of data.

Account name
Account number
Sort code
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-12-25 11:04:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
There was a time when passports used to state the profession of the
holder. I distinctly remember my first (old format) British passport
showing 'Student' as my first occupation. I do not know exactly when,
but this habit got discontinued when Britain adopted the EU style passport.
Q1 - Why was 'profession' there in the first place
Q2- Will it make a reappearance when blue passports are re-introduced
That was not just passports. At one time it was customary in some
(semi-)formal contexts to mention a person's job along with their name.

I have a copy of a page from the passenger list for the ship's voyage
which took my mother, her siblings and her mother from England to
Australia in 1908.
It is a printed form with the individual entries handwritten.

One column is headed:

Profession, Occupation or Calling of Passengers*

* In the case of First-class passengers this
column need not be filled up.

The entries include: salesman, labourer, wife, housewife, cabinet maker,
engineer, grocer's assistant, farmer, domestic, clerk.

In that list oassengers' ages were recorded in three categories:
"Infants", "Children between 1 and 12" and "Adults of 12 years and
upward".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2018-12-25 11:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I have a copy of a page from the passenger list for the ship's
voyage which took my mother, her siblings and her mother from England
to Australia in 1908. It is a printed form with the individual
entries handwritten.
Profession, Occupation or Calling of Passengers*
* In the case of First-class passengers this column need not be
filled up.
An interesting footnote. It suggests that it's normal for first-class
passengers to be parasites on society.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The entries include: salesman, labourer, wife, housewife, cabinet
maker, engineer, grocer's assistant, farmer, domestic, clerk.
"Infants", "Children between 1 and 12" and "Adults of 12 years and
upward".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-25 14:28:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I have a copy of a page from the passenger list for the ship's
voyage which took my mother, her siblings and her mother from England
to Australia in 1908. It is a printed form with the individual
entries handwritten.
Profession, Occupation or Calling of Passengers*
* In the case of First-class passengers this column need not be
filled up.
An interesting footnote. It suggests that it's normal for first-class
passengers to be parasites on society.
It still is.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The entries include: salesman, labourer, wife, housewife, cabinet
maker, engineer, grocer's assistant, farmer, domestic, clerk.
"Infants", "Children between 1 and 12" and "Adults of 12 years and
upward".
--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2018-12-25 16:05:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I have a copy of a page from the passenger list for the ship's
voyage which took my mother, her siblings and her mother from England
to Australia in 1908. It is a printed form with the individual
entries handwritten.
Profession, Occupation or Calling of Passengers*
* In the case of First-class passengers this column need not be
filled up.
An interesting footnote. It suggests that it's normal for first-class
passengers to be parasites on society.
Perhaps the merest hint that they might be engaged in "Trade" would
cause terrible offence.
--
Sam Plusnet
Loading...