Discussion:
teenage men
(too old to reply)
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-09 19:29:29 UTC
Permalink
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."

Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.

Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.

Comments?

Best,
Helen
Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.
2019-05-09 19:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
Best,
Helen
Yes, *teenage men* is a liberal term used by a leftist
press to create a new category of humans to further
their desire to divide and conquer. Teenage men opens
the door for teenage women - a further fracturing of
the subset of *teenage*. Then comes *teenage girls* and
*teenage boys*. These will then be called divisive and, as
a substitute, they will be lumped together in the name of
equality as *teenage children*.

Blurring the line and moving the goalposts are known methods
of leftist propaganda used to further a socialist/communist
agenda.
--
Yours Truly, Sir Gregory

Nadegda and kensi » the twain are easily ignored
feminist bigots and republic-hating, leftist liars.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-09 21:02:24 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 09 May 2019 15:43:48 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.
Yes, *teenage men* is a liberal term used by a leftist
press...
Blurring the line and moving the goalposts are known methods
of leftist propaganda used to further a socialist/communist
agenda.
Oh, right. The "leftist press" is into goalpost moving and propaganda
that furthers their agenda.

Like the "right-wing press" isn't shifting the goalposts around and
furthering their Fascist agenda?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-05-10 08:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 09 May 2019 15:43:48 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
Post by Sir Gregory Hall, Esq.
Yes, *teenage men* is a liberal term used by a leftist
press...
Blurring the line and moving the goalposts are known methods
of leftist propaganda used to further a socialist/communist
agenda.
Oh, right. The "leftist press" is into goalpost moving and propaganda
that furthers their agenda.
Like the "right-wing press" isn't shifting the goalposts around and
furthering their Fascist agenda?
PDFTT.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
CDB
2019-05-10 13:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, *teenage men* is a liberal term used by a leftist press...
Blurring the line and moving the goalposts are known methods of
leftist propaganda used to further a socialist/communist agenda.
Oh, right. The "leftist press" is into goalpost moving and
propaganda that furthers their agenda.
Like the "right-wing press" isn't shifting the goalposts around and
furthering their Fascist agenda?
If people keep using that word to describe all right-wing commentators,
some of whom are perfectly reasonable, I may be forced to deploy "soviet
socialist wokeness", "soviet" being a word which IMO fits the extreme
left wing vastly better than "Nazi" fits moderate right-wingers.
Quinn C
2019-05-09 21:32:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
--
Doris did not usually leave men to port and cigars except
at large,formal dinners because Frank was a man who often
found other men's company gross and tedious.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.93
Cheryl
2019-05-09 22:42:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 May 2019 17:32:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
Such laws seem fairly common, and do not require the invention of
terms like that. All the laws say is that people between the ages of
x and y can be tried as youth or adults, and how this decision is to
be made.
--
Cheryl
Quinn C
2019-05-10 16:36:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 9 May 2019 17:32:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
Such laws seem fairly common, and do not require the invention of
terms like that. All the laws say is that people between the ages of
x and y can be tried as youth or adults, and how this decision is to
be made.
But such a rule establishes the category, named or not. In fact, it is
named in legal language. I guess it's just easier to talk about it this
way, and I see no harm in that. The word is Heranwachsende, literally
"growing-ups".
--
A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-10 16:42:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 9 May 2019 17:32:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
Such laws seem fairly common, and do not require the invention of
terms like that. All the laws say is that people between the ages of
x and y can be tried as youth or adults, and how this decision is to
be made.
But such a rule establishes the category, named or not. In fact, it is
named in legal language. I guess it's just easier to talk about it this
way, and I see no harm in that. The word is Heranwachsende, literally
"growing-ups".
In the US, people in the 18-20 group are tried as adults. It's people in the
12-17 age bracket that are sometimes tried as juveniles, other times as
adults, depending on the whims of the prosecutor and the judge. These
people are not the ones who are called "teenage men." The term in the
US has no corresponding legal category.

Best,
Helen
Quinn C
2019-05-10 17:14:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 9 May 2019 17:32:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
Such laws seem fairly common, and do not require the invention of
terms like that. All the laws say is that people between the ages of
x and y can be tried as youth or adults, and how this decision is to
be made.
But such a rule establishes the category, named or not. In fact, it is
named in legal language. I guess it's just easier to talk about it this
way, and I see no harm in that. The word is Heranwachsende, literally
"growing-ups".
In the US, people in the 18-20 group are tried as adults. It's people in the
12-17 age bracket that are sometimes tried as juveniles, other times as
adults, depending on the whims of the prosecutor and the judge.
For 12- and 13-year olds, there isn't even any criminal proceedings in
Germany. It'll be a matter of Youth Protection.

While proposals to lower the minimum age to 12 pop up regularly, it's
outright weird to us that in the UK, 10-year olds could be charged with
murder, and that a prison term of 15 years was even discussed. Prison
terms over 5 years are rare exceptions in German juvenile courts, i.e.
even for 17-year olds.

<https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/signs-symptoms/developmental-milestones/developmental-milestones-for-typical-fourth-and-fifth-graders>

| Cognitive Milestones
|
| - Realize that thoughts are private and that people see others
| differently than they see themselves
| - Start predicting the consequences of an action
Post by h***@gmail.com
These
people are not the ones who are called "teenage men." The term in the
US has no corresponding legal category.
No issue with that. I was just saying that there's nothing wrong with
establishing such a category, if it's useful for some purpose. I don't
like the specific term "teenage men" either.
--
Failover worked - the system failed, then it was over.
(freely translated from a remark by Dietz Proepper
in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)
Cheryl
2019-05-10 17:11:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 9 May 2019 17:32:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
Such laws seem fairly common, and do not require the invention of
terms like that. All the laws say is that people between the ages of
x and y can be tried as youth or adults, and how this decision is to
be made.
But such a rule establishes the category, named or not. In fact, it is
named in legal language. I guess it's just easier to talk about it this
way, and I see no harm in that. The word is Heranwachsende, literally
"growing-ups".
Not all categories need names, and in Canada, at least, English seems to
get along quite well without a special term for that group, while
recognizing that age is not the only determinant of criminal responsibility.
--
Cheryl
CDB
2019-05-10 13:01:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by h***@gmail.com
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a
guy who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed
his second decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19
years old. But to my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and
confusing set of connotations, as if the writer could not decide
whether the person in question was an adult or not. In fact, the
term feels like an attempt to create a new category in between
juveniles and adults, a category of person whose legal
responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity— at least in
the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
German courts have long - probably since the age of majority was
lowered - had the choice to judge 18-20 year olds under juvenile or
adult rules, depending on the judge's impression of the personal
maturity of the accused. So this category is not new to me.
That could be humane. The cispondine custom is to prosecute those under
18 as adults, if you're awfully annoyed with them.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-09 20:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone. Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-09 21:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone.
You're welcome! (Did my typing conceal the sarcastic tone?)
Post by Tony Cooper
Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
When you call this usage an anomaly, do you mean to imply that its
rise has no significance other than mere sloppiness? Because I think
it's indicative of a new discomfort with traditional attitudes about
maturity. Questions on this topic keep coming up these days, like:

- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
- When does a person's prefrontal cortex finish developing?
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement
and take their porn collection with them?

The answers are no longer clear, they keep shifting around, and
I think this is causing a kind of cultural anxiety, reflected here in
what I agree is an aggravating usage.

Best,
Helen
Tony Cooper
2019-05-09 23:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone.
You're welcome! (Did my typing conceal the sarcastic tone?)
Post by Tony Cooper
Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
When you call this usage an anomaly, do you mean to imply that its
rise has no significance other than mere sloppiness? Because I think
it's indicative of a new discomfort with traditional attitudes about
Well, there you go again asking serious questions about topics I
haven't given much thought to.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
On those two above, I'm more concerned about establishing consent. If
there's one thing the "Me Too Movement" has accomplished it's that
exposing that "consent" is not a one-party decision and the presence
of a penis does not decide which party can make the decision
unilaterally.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
I'm OK with 18 for the first and third, and 16 for the middle one.
Not that I think that all that are of those ages can assumed to be
reasonable in doing the action.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
When a responsible panel agrees that the person's mentality is
sufficiently matured enough to understand the severity of the crime.
Not that I think that all of the people appointed to those panels are
actually qualified to make the decision.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When does a person's prefrontal cortex finish developing?
If that was something I'd be smart enough to answer I'd have gone into
forensic pathology as a career. I'm not. I didn't.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement
and take their porn collection with them?
You're asking me? I'm so old that National Geographic was the closest
thing to porn I ever thumbed through. You can't tell me that the
editors of National Geographic just happened to chose African villages
and not Eskimo encampments in their photo coverage.
Post by h***@gmail.com
The answers are no longer clear, they keep shifting around, and
I think this is causing a kind of cultural anxiety, reflected here in
what I agree is an aggravating usage.
Best,
Helen
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-10 00:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone.
You're welcome! (Did my typing conceal the sarcastic tone?)
Post by Tony Cooper
Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
When you call this usage an anomaly, do you mean to imply that its
rise has no significance other than mere sloppiness? Because I think
it's indicative of a new discomfort with traditional attitudes about
Well, there you go again asking serious questions about topics I
haven't given much thought to.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
On those two above, I'm more concerned about establishing consent. If
there's one thing the "Me Too Movement" has accomplished it's that
exposing that "consent" is not a one-party decision and the presence
of a penis does not decide which party can make the decision
unilaterally.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
I'm OK with 18 for the first and third, and 16 for the middle one.
Not that I think that all that are of those ages can assumed to be
reasonable in doing the action.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
When a responsible panel agrees that the person's mentality is
sufficiently matured enough to understand the severity of the crime.
Not that I think that all of the people appointed to those panels are
actually qualified to make the decision.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When does a person's prefrontal cortex finish developing?
If that was something I'd be smart enough to answer I'd have gone into
forensic pathology as a career. I'm not. I didn't.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement
and take their porn collection with them?
You're asking me? I'm so old that National Geographic was the closest
thing to porn I ever thumbed through. You can't tell me that the
editors of National Geographic just happened to chose African villages
and not Eskimo encampments in their photo coverage.
So, how old were you when you took your seven crates of well-thumbed
National Geographic back-issues out from under your childhood bed and
into your own apartment?

Just wondering,
Helen
Peter Moylan
2019-05-10 01:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement and
take their porn collection with them?
The idea of keeping porn inside my parents' house is mind-boggling, to
say the least. Where would I have hidden it? The porn had to wait until
I had moved out.
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
You're asking me? I'm so old that National Geographic was the
closest thing to porn I ever thumbed through. You can't tell me
that the editors of National Geographic just happened to chose
African villages and not Eskimo encampments in their photo
coverage.
So, how old were you when you took your seven crates of well-thumbed
National Geographic back-issues out from under your childhood bed
and into your own apartment?
I moved out of the family home at the age of 17, to go to university. My
siblings would have moved out at a similar age. We lived in a small
town, and they had to move elsewhere to have any chance of getting a job.

Much the same would have been true for other people of my generation.

The notion of hanging around for years is a more recent thing. I imagine
it's mostly because house prices (and therefore rents) have gone up much
faster than the general inflation rate, so that housing affordability
has become a severe problem.

High youth unemployment could also be a factor.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2019-05-10 09:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement and
take their porn collection with them?
The idea of keeping porn inside my parents' house is mind-boggling, to
say the least. Where would I have hidden it? The porn had to wait until
I had moved out.
Post by h***@gmail.com
You're asking me?  I'm so old that National Geographic was the
closest thing to porn I ever thumbed through.  You can't tell me
that the editors of National Geographic just happened to chose
African villages and not Eskimo encampments in their photo
coverage.
So, how old were you when you took your seven crates of well-thumbed
National Geographic back-issues out from under your childhood bed
and into your own apartment?
I moved out of the family home at the age of 17, to go to university. My
siblings would have moved out at a similar age. We lived in a small
town, and they had to move elsewhere to have any chance of getting a job.
Much the same would have been true for other people of my generation.
The notion of hanging around for years is a more recent thing. I imagine
it's mostly because house prices (and therefore rents) have gone up much
faster than the general inflation rate, so that housing affordability
has become a severe problem.
High youth unemployment could also be a factor.
I moved out at 15, although I moved to a church-run university
residence, not my own apartment. I don't remember exactly when the
parental contributions to my expenses ended, and which apartment I was
living in at the time. I might have been in my later teens. I don't
think I was over 20.

The age at which one leaves home - and whether one should for any reason
less than marriage - varies not only by culture and economic situation,
but time. My own generation mostly followed the leave home as soon as
you can afford to - which often meant when you got your first steady
job, although if you were getting post-secondary education, you might
live away from home mostly or entirely at your parents' expense. A
generation ago, it was normal for adult children of both sexes to live
in the family home until they married, unless they had to leave the home
town for work. I still know women my own age who have lived in their
family home their entire lives (and heard of men who did the same), but
it's not common any more.

There's a lot of variation in living arrangements, and living with the
family for prolonged periods can work out well - or not - just like any
other living arrangement. The main danger is that one person - often the
adult child - never manages to become self-supporting, and is helpless
when the parents die, unless taken in by a sibling (which seems
EXTREMELY rare). But there are also cases even now in which siblings or
an adult child and a parent live together, all contributing and all
benefiting from the arrangement. It wouldn't have suited me, though - I
got too used to being too independent too young to like that kind of
arrangement.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2019-05-10 01:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone.
You're welcome! (Did my typing conceal the sarcastic tone?)
Post by Tony Cooper
Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
When you call this usage an anomaly, do you mean to imply that its
rise has no significance other than mere sloppiness? Because I think
it's indicative of a new discomfort with traditional attitudes about
Well, there you go again asking serious questions about topics I
haven't given much thought to.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
On those two above, I'm more concerned about establishing consent. If
there's one thing the "Me Too Movement" has accomplished it's that
exposing that "consent" is not a one-party decision and the presence
of a penis does not decide which party can make the decision
unilaterally.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
I'm OK with 18 for the first and third, and 16 for the middle one.
Not that I think that all that are of those ages can assumed to be
reasonable in doing the action.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
When a responsible panel agrees that the person's mentality is
sufficiently matured enough to understand the severity of the crime.
Not that I think that all of the people appointed to those panels are
actually qualified to make the decision.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When does a person's prefrontal cortex finish developing?
If that was something I'd be smart enough to answer I'd have gone into
forensic pathology as a career. I'm not. I didn't.
Post by h***@gmail.com
- When should a person move out of their parent's basement
and take their porn collection with them?
You're asking me? I'm so old that National Geographic was the closest
thing to porn I ever thumbed through. You can't tell me that the
editors of National Geographic just happened to chose African villages
and not Eskimo encampments in their photo coverage.
So, how old were you when you took your seven crates of well-thumbed
National Geographic back-issues out from under your childhood bed and
into your own apartment?
Actually, I left home at 17 early my last semester of high school. My
"apartment" was a rented room in a private house. It was the former
room of my boss at my part-time job, and his parents set the rent at
1/6 of my weekly earnings. There were no magazines under his bed.

From there to a fraternity house at Indiana University. Each time I
moved I carried everything I owned in one trip, but with no arms left
to hold a crate of magazines.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-10 12:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Well, there you go again asking serious questions about topics I
haven't given much thought to.
Then, since it's a serious topic, refraining from comment might be the
best approach.
l***@yahoo.com
2019-05-10 14:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
On those two above, I'm more concerned about establishing consent. If
there's one thing the "Me Too Movement" has accomplished it's that
exposing that "consent" is not a one-party decision and the presence
of a penis does not decide which party can make the decision
unilaterally.
I'm assuming you mean that "men don't get to make women's decisions for them, without women's permission."

But...if this were a very different forum and someone else said what you did, many would respond as follows: "You're damn right that women shouldn't have all the rights when it comes to her consent. 'Unwanted sex' is nothing but a stupid PC myth anyway! Any stupid teenage boy knows that!" (Irony.) "So why should a husband have to take his wife's 'no' seriously? No jury would convict him anyway!"



Lenona.
l***@yahoo.com
2019-05-10 14:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
When you call this usage an anomaly, do you mean to imply that its
rise has no significance other than mere sloppiness? Because I think
it's indicative of a new discomfort with traditional attitudes about
- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
Well, Fran Lebowitz had a wise comment (when does she not?) in her 1970s essay "Tips for Teens":

"If you reside in a state where you attain your legal majority while still in your teens, pretend that you don't. There isn't an adult alive who would want to be contractually bound by a decision he came to at the age of nineteen."

From another forum:

cc said: "The Left has forced schools to give out condoms in schools and encouraged free sex (making fun of 'waiting for marriage') but at the same time 15 yr olds are a cause for their 17 yr old boyfriend to go to jail. In some states it is legal for 15 or 16 yr olds to marry but not have sex."

Here's how I responded to that:

If that last sentence is true, I'm all in favor of making it ILLEGAL for anyone to marry if that person is under, oh, maybe, 21.

Why? Because it doesn't strike me as very "pro-family values" to encourage anyone to marry at that age, even if it's "only" with parental permission. You can't join the Army at 15, even with parental permission. You can't drive alone at 15 either.

Bottom line: Since no one is in favor of making anyone marry and then divorce, allowing marriage at an age before most people are even capable of graduating from college is hardly a way to help lower the divorce rate. Or, you might say, marriage and parenthood are no longer mandatory rites of passage to adulthood, so it's not fair to suggest that one has to prepare for them at an early age, the way they did over a century ago, when the global population was under 2 billion.

Also, I don't know of any school officials who make fun of "waiting for marriage." What IS ludicrous is the abstinence-only implication that one should have to wait until marriage or death, whichever comes first. Or that God will reward you for abstaining, with a dream spouse, when you turn 25 at the latest. (Why not say the same about the rewards of flossing or losing weight?) Or that condoms should not be made easily available when incurable STIs are very much a problem. Wanting to abstain until adulthood is a separate matter.

As old-fashioned liberal (and terrific writer) Wendy Kaminer wrote in the early 1990s:

"'What are the benefits of abstinence?' I asked a group of five women friends who came of age in the 1960s. They were momentarily stumped. Everyone readily recited the evils that abstinence avoided — disease, unwanted pregnancies, and considerable heartache — but we had trouble identifying the goods that it offered, even to young women in their late teens. Self-discipline was rejected; celibacy seemed more like self-denial. Finally someone pointed out that chastity might help some young women achieve autonomy. It allows them to focus on satisfying themselves instead of pleasing their boyfriends. It puts school before sex. But chastity is a path to autonomy only when it is divorced from romance.

"The sexual revolution didn't eliminate romance but did temper it a little, with experience, and the opportunity for autonomy without abstinence. At least, that's how it looks in retrospect..."

(snip)



Lenona.
l***@yahoo.com
2019-05-10 14:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
- What's a reasonable age of consent for marriage?
- What's a reasonable age of consent for sex?
- What's a reasonable age for drinking? For driving? For voting?
- When should someone be tried as an adult?
And, again, here's what I wrote elsewhere:


Just because the DRIVING age is usually 16 doesn't mean it should be so low - these days. The reason? Even well under than a century ago, neither roads or cars allowed for high speeds. If they had, you can almost bet the writers of the driving laws wouldn't have allowed 16-year-olds to drive. Given the traffic fatalities for teens, maybe it's time to change the laws?

Also, in 1984, columnist Ellen Goodman said, in a column on underage drinking, that back when young men started arguing "if we're old enough to fight, we're old enough to vote," we should have raised the draft age to 21 instead of lowering the voting age. At the end, she said: "What then of the voter who says that anyone old enough to die for his country is old enough to drink in it? Tell him 18 is much, much too young to die for his country."

You can read the column here:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19840217&id=v8daAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p20DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4837,4088469

I must say it's interesting to imagine how the debate would have gone HAD we tried to raise the draft age.

I also wonder, why is it that, before the 20th century, when adolescence didn't officially exist and young men were expected to do men's work starting in their early teens, they STILL couldn't vote until 21? Or did that have to do with the fact that so many back then didn't finish high school anyway because doing so wasn't as important back then - but the result was that they weren't as well-informed in politics as one might expect them to be by age 21?


I also wrote:



Oh yes - here's another reason why, in 1971, we should probably have just raised the draft age to 21 instead of lowering the voting age. From 1991:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-09-21/entertainment/9103110767_1_young-adults-motel-room-dear-ann-landers

This letter is the first of three on the same subject:

Dear Ann Landers: That letter from the Montana reader who complained that a motel keeper wouldn`t rent a room to a teenager because he wasn`t ``of age`` burned me up. Here`s how it looks from my side of the registration desk.

I worked in a hotel in North Carolina for several months. Our age requirement for guests went from 18 to 21 to 27, after several ``young adults`` trashed their rooms. When I say trashed, I don`t mean wet towels on the carpets and a broken lamp or two. I mean they knocked holes in the wall trying to remove the fixtures, ripped out the telephones, tore up the carpeting and sneaked out in the dead of night without paying their bill.

Another group of young people were selling drugs out of our place. It didn't help business any when the police showed up to make arrests. We suspected something was odd when carloads of friends came to ``visit`` at all hours of the night. We finally told them to leave after several guests phoned the desk to complain about the noise.

``Montana`` said it was unfair to allow a few bad apples to spoil the barrel. I agree. But when the majority of problems are caused by people under 25, the hotel must take whatever steps are necessary to save its reputation, not to mention the business itself. This means we have to keep the troublemakers out. The only way to do it was to raise the age limit, which we did. By the way, we noticed that the people who got upset about the age limit being raised were the very ones who caused the trouble to begin with. We know because we kept a list.

(end)



Lenona.
Joy Beeson
2019-05-12 03:25:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Just because the DRIVING age is usually 16 doesn't mean it should be so low - these days. The reason? Even well under than a century ago, neither roads or cars allowed for high speeds. If they had, you can almost bet the writers of the driving laws wouldn't have allowed 16-year-olds to drive. Given the traffic fatalities for teens, maybe it's time to change the laws?
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.

As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
RH Draney
2019-05-12 06:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
I'd be happy if we could teach them not to walk behind cars that are
backing out of parking spaces...but then their parents don't appear to
have mastered that trick either....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 12:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Just because the DRIVING age is usually 16 doesn't mean it should be so low - these days. The reason? Even well under than a century ago, neither roads or cars allowed for high speeds. If they had, you can almost bet the writers of the driving laws wouldn't have allowed 16-year-olds to drive. Given the traffic fatalities for teens, maybe it's time to change the laws?
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-12 16:28:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Just because the DRIVING age is usually 16 doesn't mean it should be so low - these days. The reason? Even well under than a century ago, neither roads or cars allowed for high speeds. If they had, you can almost bet the writers of the driving laws wouldn't have allowed 16-year-olds to drive. Given the traffic fatalities for teens, maybe it's time to change the laws?
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.

Favara disappeared one day in the following July and was never seen
again.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 16:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
Post by Mack A. Damia
Favara disappeared one day in the following July and was never seen
again.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-12 16:57:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
Favara disappeared one day in the following July and was never seen
again.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 17:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-12 17:16:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-05-12 17:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 18:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?

You may have missed what I actually said. Damia in fact didn't delete it:

Joy suggested that children begin being taught the "rules of the road"
at the age of 12, and this would reduce the number of darting children.

To which I noted that by the age of 12, children have probably ceased
doing whatever darting they may have done when younger.

Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.

That's all.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-12 19:15:37 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.

It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Why is it implausible? It's a fact that 12 year-old Frank Gotti died
on March 18, 1980 as a result of being hit by a car driven by John
Favara when the boy pulled out from behind a dumpster on a motorized
minibike. A police investigation cleared Favara of fault. It's a
fact that John Favara disappeared in July, 1980 after witnesses saw
him shoved into a van.

Favara's remains have never been dug up.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 19:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
Whatever a "Cushman" or a "Cushman Eagle" is.
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
So a Cushman was a bicycle with a suitable chain-drive gear ratio?
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Why is it implausible? It's a fact that 12 year-old Frank Gotti died
on March 18, 1980 as a result of being hit by a car driven by John
Favara when the boy pulled out from behind a dumpster on a motorized
minibike. A police investigation cleared Favara of fault. It's a
fact that John Favara disappeared in July, 1980 after witnesses saw
him shoved into a van.
Favara's remains have never been dug up.
That's right -- repeat everything so as to obscure the actual point.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 00:05:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
Whatever a "Cushman" or a "Cushman Eagle" is.
You were a very sheltered child.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-13 01:41:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
Whatever a "Cushman" or a "Cushman Eagle" is.
You were a very sheltered child.
A generation younger than you, and from a hilly city.
RH Draney
2019-05-13 06:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
Whatever a "Cushman" or a "Cushman Eagle" is.
You were a very sheltered child.
I rode one of those....

Just once....

Right into a barbed-wire fence....r
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-12 19:26:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 15:15:37 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
"Move suddenly" appears to be a popular definition of "dart", and
that's what the kid did. He could have been on foot, too, and it
would still be "dart".
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Are you serious? I was not particularly aware of the word when I
posted the story.
Post by Tony Cooper
Why is it implausible? It's a fact that 12 year-old Frank Gotti died
on March 18, 1980 as a result of being hit by a car driven by John
Favara when the boy pulled out from behind a dumpster on a motorized
minibike. A police investigation cleared Favara of fault. It's a
fact that John Favara disappeared in July, 1980 after witnesses saw
him shoved into a van.
Favara's remains have never been dug up.
The kid's mother went after Favara with a baseball bat and narrowly
missed his head. No sense of responsibility as in not teaching your
kid to be careful, especially on a minibike in traffic. A mother's
guilt expressed as homicidal rage.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-13 01:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 15:15:37 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
"Move suddenly" appears to be a popular definition of "dart", and
that's what the kid did. He could have been on foot, too, and it
would still be "dart".
On foot would be far more likely for darting.

But odd for a 12-year-old, unless he was somewhat dimwitted.
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Are you serious? I was not particularly aware of the word when I
posted the story.
Post by Tony Cooper
Why is it implausible?
Because darting is not compatible with "motorized minibike."

That someone was disappeared because he caused the death of a mobster
child is not particularly implausible. Maybe somewhat anachronistic.
There was an apparent mob hit in Staten Island not too long ago, and
the main feature of the news stories was how long it had been since
that sort of thing had happened.
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-13 01:51:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 18:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 15:15:37 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
"Move suddenly" appears to be a popular definition of "dart", and
that's what the kid did. He could have been on foot, too, and it
would still be "dart".
On foot would be far more likely for darting.
But odd for a 12-year-old, unless he was somewhat dimwitted.
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Are you serious? I was not particularly aware of the word when I
posted the story.
Post by Tony Cooper
Why is it implausible?
Because darting is not compatible with "motorized minibike."
That someone was disappeared because he caused the death of a mobster
child is not particularly implausible. Maybe somewhat anachronistic.
There was an apparent mob hit in Staten Island not too long ago, and
the main feature of the news stories was how long it had been since
that sort of thing had happened.
Are you suggesting that I "dug up" a gangster story with the word
"darted" because I knew that you would challenge it?

My only purpose in posting that story was in reply to your comment:

"Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12."

Frank Gotti was twelve years old.

It is mere coincidence that I chose an account of the accident with
the word "darted", and I never thought about Joy's choice of words at
all. If you don't believe it, then that's your problem.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 03:36:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 18:31:39 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 15:15:37 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Of course, but people who have never had any children may not know that
children darting out into traffic is the sort of thing parents need to
worry about.
In 1980, did the "motorized minibikes" your children had access to have
the property of being able to "dart"?
Good Lord, yes. We could have darted into traffic on a Cushman in
1950 when I was 12 years-old. Just an ordinary Cushman, and not the
Cushman Eagle which was capable of very fast acceleration and 50/55
mph at full speed.
"Move suddenly" appears to be a popular definition of "dart", and
that's what the kid did. He could have been on foot, too, and it
would still be "dart".
On foot would be far more likely for darting.
But odd for a 12-year-old, unless he was somewhat dimwitted.
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not necessary to have a powerful engine to "dart". Gear ratio is
more of a factor as any bicycle rider will tell you, especially with
chain-driven vehicles with sprockets.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Damia then dug up a gangster story that used the word "darted" in a
rather implausible context.
Are you serious? I was not particularly aware of the word when I
posted the story.
Post by Tony Cooper
Why is it implausible?
Because darting is not compatible with "motorized minibike."
Actually, not compatible with what *you* know of what a "motorized
motorbike" is, and that - in your own words - is nothing.

If you actually knew what they are, you wouldn't argue the point.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-05-13 06:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
There was an apparent mob hit in Staten Island not too long ago, and
the main feature of the news stories was how long it had been since
that sort of thing had happened.
Probably not since they nailed down the "make it look like an accident"
bit....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 17:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Again: "suddenly."
Tony Cooper
2019-05-12 18:20:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting". It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair. A running child can "dart into traffic". Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.

In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."

and gives an example sentence

"she darted across the street"

Another says "dart in and out [for something moving] to move quickly
between two things, or into a number of things, and move away again.
On the highway, a small car was darting in and out of the two right
lanes of traffic."

Some people just aren't current with the use of language.

I have no problem with understanding "motorized minibike". It's just
a scaled-down motorcycle-type of thing that a wealthy parent would buy
for a 12 year-old. When my son was 12 (1981), he had a motorized
go-cart that could certainly dart into traffic if we had lived in an
area where the streets had more traffic than the occasional local
resident. (If so, we would not have bought him a go-cart.)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-12 19:17:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
Post by Tony Cooper
and gives an example sentence
"she darted across the street"
Another says "dart in and out [for something moving] to move quickly
between two things, or into a number of things, and move away again.
On the highway, a small car was darting in and out of the two right
lanes of traffic."
Some people just aren't current with the use of language.
The quintessential "darting" is what a school of tiny fish does when
spooked.
Post by Tony Cooper
I have no problem with understanding "motorized minibike". It's just
a scaled-down motorcycle-type of thing that a wealthy parent would buy
for a 12 year-old. When my son was 12 (1981), he had a motorized
go-cart that could certainly dart into traffic if we had lived in an
area where the streets had more traffic than the occasional local
resident. (If so, we would not have bought him a go-cart.)
A go-kart does not have a motor. A go-kart is a vehicle designed for
rolling very fast down a hill. But that is irrelevant. The essence of
the definition above is "suddenly" and "rapidly." Those are not properties
of a "motorized minibike." A manufacturer would not have provided a
children's toy with the properties of "suddenly" and "rapidly" darting
into traffic.
Sam Plusnet
2019-05-12 20:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
In order to make this assertion you must have some data on the
performance of all versions of this class of vehicle - or perhaps you're
just...
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-13 01:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
In order to make this assertion you must have some data on the
performance of all versions of this class of vehicle - or perhaps you're
just...
Why are you complaining to _me_? Why aren't you trying to find out what a
1980 "motorized minibike" might be? or even a "minibike"?
Tony Cooper
2019-05-12 21:56:39 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
It's a better plan to start teaching children the rules of the road
four years before they are old enough to drive. Maturity doesn't
appear automatically with the passage of years, it has to be
practiced.
As a side effect, we'd have fewer children darting into roads in front
of moving cars.
Well ... they've probably stopped doing that by the time they're 12.
On March 18, 1980, 12-year-old Frank Gotti, the youngest son of
mobster John Gotti, darted into the street on a motorized minibike
from behind a dumpster and was struck and killed by a car driven by
neighbor John Favara.
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
At less than the rapidity of a person in a wheelchair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
You say you don't know what a motorized minibike is, but you know they
can't move suddenly?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
and gives an example sentence
"she darted across the street"
Another says "dart in and out [for something moving] to move quickly
between two things, or into a number of things, and move away again.
On the highway, a small car was darting in and out of the two right
lanes of traffic."
Some people just aren't current with the use of language.
The quintessential "darting" is what a school of tiny fish does when
spooked.
Quintessential meaning? Google search for "child darts into traffic";
a subject discussed far more often than fish activity.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
I have no problem with understanding "motorized minibike". It's just
a scaled-down motorcycle-type of thing that a wealthy parent would buy
for a 12 year-old. When my son was 12 (1981), he had a motorized
go-cart that could certainly dart into traffic if we had lived in an
area where the streets had more traffic than the occasional local
resident. (If so, we would not have bought him a go-cart.)
A go-kart does not have a motor. A go-kart is a vehicle designed for
rolling very fast down a hill.
No, that's a Soap Box Derby car. Go-carts, or "go-karts", have
internal combustion motors. It's usually a 5 to 10 hp Briggs &
Stratton engine. (My son's was 8 hp) A Vespa's engine has a little
more horsepower at just under 12 hp. (Is Vespa also unfamiliar to
you?)

There are exceptions. RPM Raceway in Jersey City has electric
go-carts. Electric power is better when they are a used for short
rides on a controlled track where people pay to race in one. Less
pollution and they can be charged between races.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But that is irrelevant. The essence of
the definition above is "suddenly" and "rapidly." Those are not properties
of a "motorized minibike." A manufacturer would not have provided a
children's toy with the properties of "suddenly" and "rapidly" darting
into traffic.
Peter, you're ignorance and refusal to do even rudimentary checking on
the subjects on which you comment is profound.

You don't know what a motorized minibike is, or what a Cushman is, or
what a go-cart is, and yet you make conclusive statements about them.
I could provide links to images of all three (motorized minibikes are
now usually called "pocket bikes"), but I know your ignorance is
coupled with an irresistible need to preserve that ignorance, and you
wouldn't follow the links.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Katy Jennison
2019-05-12 22:28:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
I agree with Peter. It has to be sudden, but it also has to be very fast.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Conceivably, if they have a racing wheelchair and are accustomed to
using it. Otherwise, I agree. And even with a racing wheelchair ... I
dunno. I think of darting as quintessentially done on foot. Which is
why I'm also dubious about applying it to this motorized minibike,
however fast it could go.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
At less than the rapidity of a person in a wheelchair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
You say you don't know what a motorized minibike is, but you know they
can't move suddenly?
See above. (I'm probably in a minority of two.)
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 00:13:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 23:28:06 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:16:47 -0700, Mack A. Damia
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 12 May 2019 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't think of riding a minibike into a street as "darting." (Whatever
a "motorized minibike" may have been in 1980.)
You don't think of a car "darting into traffic" at an intersection or
from a driveway? Or a vehicle "darting in and out of lanes"?
I doubt that a 1980 "motorized minibike," whatever that was, could "dart"
like a high-powered muscle car, and no, I don't think of a vehicle weaving
between lanes as "darting."
Means that the boy suddenly came out of nowhere; he just took off from
behind a dumpster without looking.
Yeah. It is isn't the actual speed or acceleration that is described
as "darting".
Nonsense.
I agree with Peter. It has to be sudden, but it also has to be very fast.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
It's entering traffic where that entry is unexpected to
others in the street. Someone could "dart" into traffic in a
wheelchair.
Nonsense.
Conceivably, if they have a racing wheelchair and are accustomed to
using it. Otherwise, I agree. And even with a racing wheelchair ... I
dunno. I think of darting as quintessentially done on foot. Which is
why I'm also dubious about applying it to this motorized minibike,
however fast it could go.
I think the connotation of the word "darted", when used in "darted
into the street" context, is the unexpected appearance of the darter
who has entered the street without looking out for traffic. It's not
a description of speed. When the distance covered is from being
between two parked cars, or from behind a dumpster in the Gotti case,
into a lane of traffic is a matter of a few feet, those few feet don't
have to be covered very fast to result in an accident.

A motorist driving at 25 mph takes 56 feet to stop. The darter can be
five or six feet into the street and in the path of the car.

I think it's conceivable that a person in a wheelchair just rolling
out into traffic from concealment could be describing at "darting into
traffic". Certainly a bicycle could "dart" into a car's path if
coming from concealment.
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
A running child can "dart into traffic".
Exactly.
At less than the rapidity of a person in a wheelchair.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Usually, the
"darting" is done entering at a right angle to the direction of
traffic and from between parked cars or something else that is
vision-obstructing.
In fact, one quick dictionary definition of "dart" is "move or run
somewhere suddenly or rapidly."
Not possible on a 1980 "motorized minibike."
You say you don't know what a motorized minibike is, but you know they
can't move suddenly?
See above. (I'm probably in a minority of two.)
Think of a motorcycle, but smaller.

See:
https://www.minipocketrockets.com/mini-bike-hotshot/?gclid=CjwKCAjwiN_mBRBBEiwA9N-e_kLqJl3l7raJkTWogy8g8LmayBe_vfM_-waJdl5b9pahHXULGHueKxoCIrAQAvD_BwE

This is a 2019 model, but similar ones have been available for yonks.
Like motorcycles, they do accelerate fairly fast. Two-wheeled
vehicles need to get up to speed quickly to allow the rider to get
control if they don't drag their feet. You don't shift gears in a
motorized minibike. It's go when you give it gas by depressing a
lever on the handlebars. Give it full gas from a stand-still, and it
jumps out.

It's not at all unusual for them to be purchased for kids around 12
years-old. Down here, I see kids out on them in open areas where they
race around over sandy courses with hills.

I've owned a 1972 Honda Passport (just a bit bigger than a motorized
minibike), three motorcycles, and a go-cart (that was used by my son).
Almost bought Cushman Allstate a few years ago to re-build for my
grandsons as a "project bike", but their mother talked me out of it. I
shouldn't have told her I was thinking about it.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Cheryl
2019-05-13 00:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 23:28:06 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Conceivably, if they have a racing wheelchair and are accustomed to
using it. Otherwise, I agree. And even with a racing wheelchair ... I
dunno. I think of darting as quintessentially done on foot. Which is
why I'm also dubious about applying it to this motorized minibike,
however fast it could go.
I think the connotation of the word "darted", when used in "darted
into the street" context, is the unexpected appearance of the darter
who has entered the street without looking out for traffic. It's not
a description of speed. When the distance covered is from being
between two parked cars, or from behind a dumpster in the Gotti case,
into a lane of traffic is a matter of a few feet, those few feet don't
have to be covered very fast to result in an accident.
A motorist driving at 25 mph takes 56 feet to stop. The darter can be
five or six feet into the street and in the path of the car.
I think it's conceivable that a person in a wheelchair just rolling
out into traffic from concealment could be describing at "darting into
traffic". Certainly a bicycle could "dart" into a car's path if
coming from concealment.
I'd say speed is implied by "darted". I don't think you can dart slowly
into a street or anywhere else. I can't see a wheelchair - certainly not
a manual one, and even standard electric ones don't speed up enough -
darting, but something faster, yes. Usually something small - maybe a
motorized bike, although I have no very clear image of one a child would
ride (or drive). Not a car or a dump truck. Something smallish and
agile, capable of sudden fast movement.
--
Cheryl
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-13 01:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 23:28:06 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Conceivably, if they have a racing wheelchair and are accustomed to
using it. Otherwise, I agree. And even with a racing wheelchair ... I
dunno. I think of darting as quintessentially done on foot. Which is
why I'm also dubious about applying it to this motorized minibike,
however fast it could go.
I think the connotation of the word "darted", when used in "darted
into the street" context, is the unexpected appearance of the darter
who has entered the street without looking out for traffic. It's not
a description of speed. When the distance covered is from being
between two parked cars, or from behind a dumpster in the Gotti case,
into a lane of traffic is a matter of a few feet, those few feet don't
have to be covered very fast to result in an accident.
A motorist driving at 25 mph takes 56 feet to stop. The darter can be
five or six feet into the street and in the path of the car.
I think it's conceivable that a person in a wheelchair just rolling
out into traffic from concealment could be describing at "darting into
traffic". Certainly a bicycle could "dart" into a car's path if
coming from concealment.
I'd say speed is implied by "darted". I don't think you can dart slowly
into a street or anywhere else. I can't see a wheelchair - certainly not
a manual one, and even standard electric ones don't speed up enough -
darting, but something faster, yes. Usually something small - maybe a
motorized bike, although I have no very clear image of one a child would
ride (or drive). Not a car or a dump truck. Something smallish and
agile, capable of sudden fast movement.
Apparently, the boy was riding the borrowed motorized minibike on a
construction site and darted out from behind a dumpster into the
street. The sun was in Favara's eyes, and he did not see him in time
to stop.

Google Book/New York Magazine:

https://tinyurl.com/y4sr4433

".......did not see twelve year old Frank Gotti shoot out from behind
a Dumpster on a borrowed minibike."
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 03:36:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 23:28:06 +0100, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Conceivably, if they have a racing wheelchair and are accustomed to
using it. Otherwise, I agree. And even with a racing wheelchair ... I
dunno. I think of darting as quintessentially done on foot. Which is
why I'm also dubious about applying it to this motorized minibike,
however fast it could go.
I think the connotation of the word "darted", when used in "darted
into the street" context, is the unexpected appearance of the darter
who has entered the street without looking out for traffic. It's not
a description of speed. When the distance covered is from being
between two parked cars, or from behind a dumpster in the Gotti case,
into a lane of traffic is a matter of a few feet, those few feet don't
have to be covered very fast to result in an accident.
A motorist driving at 25 mph takes 56 feet to stop. The darter can be
five or six feet into the street and in the path of the car.
I think it's conceivable that a person in a wheelchair just rolling
out into traffic from concealment could be describing at "darting into
traffic". Certainly a bicycle could "dart" into a car's path if
coming from concealment.
I'd say speed is implied by "darted". I don't think you can dart slowly
into a street or anywhere else. I can't see a wheelchair - certainly not
a manual one, and even standard electric ones don't speed up enough -
darting, but something faster, yes. Usually something small - maybe a
motorized bike, although I have no very clear image of one a child would
ride (or drive). Not a car or a dump truck. Something smallish and
agile, capable of sudden fast movement.
"Speed", in this context, is a description of how fast the object
appears in the driver's view.

The average walking-speed is 3 mph. It takes about two seconds to
cover 8 to 9 feet walking, and that takes a person from curb to well
in the lane of on-coming traffic.

A person on something that is wheeled or motorized could move faster
than 3 mph if they were already rolling before they left the curb. If
the Gotti boy's motorized minibike was going 25 mph, he was covering
36 feet per second. Even on a regular bicycle, he could be covering
about 14 feet per second.

I would say the driver can claim the person "darted out" if the person
came from between parked cars or from behind an object like a
dumpster.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-05-13 03:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
I've owned a 1972 Honda Passport (just a bit bigger than a motorized
minibike), three motorcycles, and a go-cart (that was used by my
son). Almost bought Cushman Allstate a few years ago to re-build for
my grandsons as a "project bike", but their mother talked me out of
it. I shouldn't have told her I was thinking about it.
Gifts from grandparents aren't always welcome. I remember a time when my
mother-in-law gave my son a toy pistol. I didn't approve, and managed to
"lose" it. When she discovered it was lost, she bought him another one.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 04:56:15 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 May 2019 13:27:20 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I've owned a 1972 Honda Passport (just a bit bigger than a motorized
minibike), three motorcycles, and a go-cart (that was used by my
son). Almost bought Cushman Allstate a few years ago to re-build for
my grandsons as a "project bike", but their mother talked me out of
it. I shouldn't have told her I was thinking about it.
Gifts from grandparents aren't always welcome. I remember a time when my
mother-in-law gave my son a toy pistol. I didn't approve, and managed to
"lose" it. When she discovered it was lost, she bought him another one.
My brother and his wife would not allow their children to have toy
guns or allow any of their friends to bring toy guns to their house.

When my nephews came here for the summer, one of the first things
they did was buy one of those computer games where the objective is to
shoot as many people as possible before they shoot the player.

(My brother lives in Denmark, so I wasn't aware of the house rules.
The boys certainly didn't tell me.)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Joy Beeson
2019-05-12 23:41:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A manufacturer would not have provided a
children's toy with the properties of "suddenly" and "rapidly" darting
into traffic.
Yes, I know better than to respond to P.T.D., I know, I know.

But this statment is sooo hysterical!

(For those who want to participate in the inevitable pointless
exchange: I'm using "hysterical" in its sense of "slat-kicking
funny".)
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-13 01:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A manufacturer would not have provided a
children's toy with the properties of "suddenly" and "rapidly" darting
into traffic.
Yes, I know better than to respond to P.T.D., I know, I know.
But this statment is sooo hysterical!
(For those who want to participate in the inevitable pointless
exchange: I'm using "hysterical" in its sense of "slat-kicking
funny".)
An appropriate response would be to point to a 1980 "motorized minibike"
that could be used for "darting into traffic."
Mack A. Damia
2019-05-13 01:54:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 12 May 2019 18:35:37 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 12 May 2019 12:17:03 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
A manufacturer would not have provided a
children's toy with the properties of "suddenly" and "rapidly" darting
into traffic.
Yes, I know better than to respond to P.T.D., I know, I know.
But this statment is sooo hysterical!
(For those who want to participate in the inevitable pointless
exchange: I'm using "hysterical" in its sense of "slat-kicking
funny".)
An appropriate response would be to point to a 1980 "motorized minibike"
that could be used for "darting into traffic."
A more detailed account of the accident:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/favara-son-dad-accidentally-killed-gotti-boy-no-grave-visit-father-day-article-1.127324
bill van
2019-05-10 00:49:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone. Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
I can't say I've seen that usage. Probably the best way to avoid it is
to call them
youths, which generally means males, and mention their ages at some point
in the story. If they're in their early teens, you can call them boys;
if they're
18 or 19, young men.

bill
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-05-10 07:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone. Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
I can't say I've seen that usage. Probably the best way to avoid it is
to call them
youths, which generally means males,
Generally, yes, but the word doesn't necessarily require that, and you
risk having Quinn accuse you of sexism if you restrict it.
Post by bill van
and mention their ages at some point
in the story. If they're in their early teens, you can call them boys;
if they're
18 or 19, young men.
bill
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2019-05-10 12:54:47 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 May 2019 09:09:55 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by bill van
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet?in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity?
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone. Dammit,
Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that aggravate
me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next time I see
that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
I can't say I've seen that usage. Probably the best way to avoid it is
to call them
youths, which generally means males,
Generally, yes, but the word doesn't necessarily require that, and you
risk having Quinn accuse you of sexism if you restrict it.
In our most recent school shooting, the shooters were two young
people. One was a 19 year-old male, and the second was 16 year-old
Alec McKinney. It was written about the 16 year-old: "Authorities
initially referred to the 16-year-old suspect as female. But the
suspect's lawyer said in court that McKinney goes by the first name
Alec, and uses the pronoun "he," Colorado Judicial Department
spokesman Rob McCallum said."

This might present problems if the two were referred to as "youths".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
CDB
2019-05-10 13:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage
("teenage men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news.
For instance, an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two
teenage men who were arrested on Saturday for questioning were
later released without charge." An example from last year's Chicago
Sun-Times: "four teenage men and a 16-year-old boy were charged
Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a
guy who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed
his second decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19
years old. But to my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and
confusing set of connotations, as if the writer could not decide
whether the person in question was an adult or not. In fact, the
term feels like an attempt to create a new category in between
juveniles and adults, a category of person whose legal
responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity— at least in the
speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
My comment is "Thanks a bunch for bringing up something I've never
thought about", but typing that conceals the sarcastic tone.
Dammit, Helen, there's enough usage anomalies in the newspapers that
aggravate me without you pointing out another one. Now, the next
time I see that, I'll notice it and get all aggravated again.
Give a boy a bad name and hang him.
occam
2019-05-10 06:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
If 'two teenage men' is just another way of saying 'two boys in their
late teens', then it has brevity to recommend it. It sounds a little
strange, but that may be because it has not been used often. I'm sure
we'll get used to it, going forward (see separate post).
Cheryl
2019-05-10 09:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
If 'two teenage men' is just another way of saying 'two boys in their
late teens', then it has brevity to recommend it. It sounds a little
strange, but that may be because it has not been used often. I'm sure
we'll get used to it, going forward (see separate post).
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
It's much clearer to say "men" (or "women") for anyone over the local
age of majority, and "teens" for anyone 13-19, regardless of their legal
status.

This term may catch on - many terms I don't like do catch on with most
people - but it seems singularly pointless and confusing to me,
especially in an article on criminal offenses where the main point is
whether they are, legally, boys or men.
--
Cheryl
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-10 16:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by occam
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
If 'two teenage men' is just another way of saying 'two boys in their
late teens', then it has brevity to recommend it. It sounds a little
strange, but that may be because it has not been used often. I'm sure
we'll get used to it, going forward (see separate post).
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
It's much clearer to say "men" (or "women") for anyone over the local
age of majority, and "teens" for anyone 13-19, regardless of their legal
status.
Yes. This is exactly what is happening. In most US jurisdictions, people
attain their majority at age 18, which makes them officially men and women.
But they are, according to your rubric, still teens. This is the logic that has
given us "teenage men." I think it's a problematic usage, because, as you
note, it conflates the category of "adult" with "teens," a category that has
historically meant "not adult."
Post by Cheryl
This term may catch on - many terms I don't like do catch on with most
people - but it seems singularly pointless and confusing to me,
especially in an article on criminal offenses where the main point is
whether they are, legally, boys or men.
Yes, I agree. The term creates a new category in people's minds: men
(or women, presumably) who are legally responsible for their actions
but somehow partially excused based on a different numeric cut-off
with no legal or biological significance. It's confusing and unproductive.

Best,
Helen
Sam Plusnet
2019-05-10 22:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by occam
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news. For instance,
an article in the NYT last month spoke of "Two teenage men who were
arrested on Saturday for questioning were later released without charge."
An example from last year's Chicago Sun-Times: "four teenage men and
a 16-year-old boy were charged Saturday...."
Technically, a "teenage man" appears to be the designation for a guy
who has attained his legal majority but hasn't yet completed his second
decade on the planet—in other words, who is 18 or 19 years old. But to
my ears, the usage carries an uncomfortable and confusing set of
connotations, as if the writer could not decide whether the person in
question was an adult or not. In fact, the term feels like an attempt to
create a new category in between juveniles and adults, a category of
person whose legal responsibility runs ahead of their moral capacity—
at least in the speaker's mind, if not in reality.
Google Ngram shows this term first appearing in the 1960s and then
really skyrocketing in the mid-1980s, when there was a big push to
try certain juvenile offenders (usually minority kids) as adults.
Comments?
If 'two teenage men' is just another way of saying 'two boys in their
late teens', then it has brevity to recommend it. It sounds a little
strange, but that may be because it has not been used often. I'm sure
we'll get used to it, going forward (see separate post).
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
It's much clearer to say "men" (or "women") for anyone over the local
age of majority, and "teens" for anyone 13-19, regardless of their legal
status.
This term may catch on - many terms I don't like do catch on with most
people - but it seems singularly pointless and confusing to me,
especially in an article on criminal offenses where the main point is
whether they are, legally, boys or men.
Perhaps a special term is needed in places where there is a group of
people who are, for most purposes treated as adults, but are not
permitted to do other 'adult' things like buy a drink.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mark Brader
2019-05-10 23:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news...
I hadn't noticed it myself, but I'll defend it.
Post by Cheryl
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
I suggest that it sounds weird *to you* because you aren't really used to
the concept some teenagers *are* men.

There's no conflation going on any more then when people talk about
"tall men" or "white men" or "stupid men". In every case the expressions
just refer to people who are characterized both ways.
Post by Cheryl
It's much clearer to say "men" (or "women") for anyone over the local
age of majority, and "teens" for anyone 13-19, regardless of their legal
status.
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
--
Mark Brader | "I thought it was a big joke.
Toronto | Dr. Brader is known for joking around a lot."
***@vex.net | --Matthew McKnight

My text in this article is in the public domain.
bill van
2019-05-11 00:49:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage ("teenage
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news...
I hadn't noticed it myself, but I'll defend it.
Post by Cheryl
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
I suggest that it sounds weird *to you* because you aren't really used to
the concept some teenagers *are* men.
There's no conflation going on any more then when people talk about
"tall men" or "white men" or "stupid men". In every case the expressions
just refer to people who are characterized both ways.
Post by Cheryl
It's much clearer to say "men" (or "women") for anyone over the local
age of majority, and "teens" for anyone 13-19, regardless of their legal
status.
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
That remains an awkward usage, and "young men" is available.

bill
Mark Brader
2019-05-11 02:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
That remains an awkward usage,
Only because you're not used to it.
Post by bill van
and "young men" is available.
But that's less specific.
--
Mark Brader "Great things are not done by those
Toronto who sit down and count the cost
***@vex.net of every thought and act." --Daniel Gooch
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 03:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
That remains an awkward usage,
Only because you're not used to it.
Post by bill van
and "young men" is available.
But that's less specific.
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility that, when it is placed
next to an otherwise unambiguous noun like "men," it vitiates the
fundamental significance of the word.

Your position is akin to saying that "black heart" is no more negatively
freighted than "purple heart." Just a couple of random colors stuck
to an organ.

Best,
Helen
Mark Brader
2019-05-11 05:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
--
Mark Brader | "...'consulted' the public, using 'consulted' with
Toronto | the special meaning of 'told them what I think'."
***@vex.net | --Cheryl Perkins
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 05:45:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.

• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.’
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’

Best,
Helen
Mark Brader
2019-05-11 06:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online,
and try substituting "adult" for "teenage." ...
For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
You said "inherent". And I'm not getting drawn into this any further.
I'm done with this thread.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "done; done; done; done; done; done; done; done;
***@vex.net | done; done; done; done" --Steve Summit
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 06:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online,
and try substituting "adult" for "teenage." ...
For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
You said "inherent". And I'm not getting drawn into this any further.
I'm done with this thread.
I'll miss your valuable contributions.

Best,
Helen
Tony Cooper
2019-05-11 07:02:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
Loaded sentence. "Angst and rebellion" are what suggest anticipated
irresponsibility. Immorality is not suggested, though.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
Again, "teenage" just defines a group, but I don't see a connotation
moral irresponsibility. Teenagers have many issues that are not
morality issues.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
That suggests something about interest in popular musical groups, but
nothing about moral irresponsibility.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.
What's morally irresponsible about teenage love? It may lead to moral
irresponsibility, but love at any age can do the same. Like leading
to adultery.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’
Again, "teenage" is just a group. Replace both "teenage" appearances
with "adult" and the sentence is equally valid. Or omit both
appearances.

My objection to "teenaged men" is that the connotation is that they
not really men because they are not yet mature. We think of "men" as
a description of mature adults.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 07:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.

There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.

So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.

But, by contrast, the "highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe" sounds
worrisome, louche, as if someone has not been minding the store.

The behavior of teenagers is not seen as morally equivalent to the behavior
of adults.

This is why the term "teenage men" is significant. Why do you think this
term did not exist before the 1960s? Is it because everyone expected that
an 18-year-old would behave as an adult, and if they didn't, it was a sign of
some strange personal aberration?

And what is its meaning today? I would argue that "teenage man" is a
half-man/half-child creation of modern society, a person not willing or
able to take on the responsibilities of adulthood. And not expected to
either.

Best,
Helen
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
Loaded sentence. "Angst and rebellion" are what suggest anticipated
irresponsibility. Immorality is not suggested, though.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
Again, "teenage" just defines a group, but I don't see a connotation
moral irresponsibility. Teenagers have many issues that are not
morality issues.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
That suggests something about interest in popular musical groups, but
nothing about moral irresponsibility.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.
What's morally irresponsible about teenage love? It may lead to moral
irresponsibility, but love at any age can do the same. Like leading
to adultery.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’
Again, "teenage" is just a group. Replace both "teenage" appearances
with "adult" and the sentence is equally valid. Or omit both
appearances.
My objection to "teenaged men" is that the connotation is that they
not really men because they are not yet mature. We think of "men" as
a description of mature adults.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-05-11 08:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in
industrial countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling
below replacement rate for the population, and threatening the
economy, because fewer births mean fewer workers.
Indeed, this is a threat to our current economic system. The most
popular economic models say that continuous growth is essential for
prosperity. The bubble will not burst as long as the "infinite
resources" assumption remains valid.

From another point of view, a declining birth rate is probably essential
for species survival; or, at least, for survival with a reasonable
standard of living.
Post by h***@gmail.com
And what is its meaning today? I would argue that "teenage man" is a
half-man/half-child creation of modern society, a person not willing
or able to take on the responsibilities of adulthood.
I've known 40-year-olds like that.
Post by h***@gmail.com
And not expected to either.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-11 12:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by h***@gmail.com
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in
industrial countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling
below replacement rate for the population, and threatening the
economy, because fewer births mean fewer workers.
Indeed, this is a threat to our current economic system. The most
popular economic models say that continuous growth is essential for
prosperity. The bubble will not burst as long as the "infinite
resources" assumption remains valid.
From another point of view, a declining birth rate is probably essential
for species survival; or, at least, for survival with a reasonable
standard of living.
Post by h***@gmail.com
And what is its meaning today? I would argue that "teenage man" is a
half-man/half-child creation of modern society, a person not willing
or able to take on the responsibilities of adulthood.
I've known 40-year-olds like that.
They were behaving like teenagers. (Helen is right.)
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by h***@gmail.com
And not expected to either.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-11 15:55:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.

Your reply above, though, puts that sentence in context where the
pregnancy rate is a good thing. When using the "single female"
substitution, and the surrounding context of the sentence was about
the plight of single females and income disparity, pregnancy would not
be a good thing.
Post by h***@gmail.com
But, by contrast, the "highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe" sounds
worrisome, louche, as if someone has not been minding the store.
I don't think that the word "teenage" itself automatically creates a
negative connotation or suggests inherent moral irresponsibility.
Context can lead to that, or context can leave it neutral.
Post by h***@gmail.com
The behavior of teenagers is not seen as morally equivalent to the behavior
of adults.
This is why the term "teenage men" is significant. Why do you think this
term did not exist before the 1960s? Is it because everyone expected that
an 18-year-old would behave as an adult, and if they didn't, it was a sign of
some strange personal aberration?
I certainly won't defend or attempt to explain the term "teenage men".
I don't like it. But, a discussion about the connotation of the word
"teenage" in a sentence is not limited to this mismatched pairing.

Consider: "Two teenage shooters in a Colorado school killed one
student and wounded others." The use of "teenage" in that sentence
informs, but does not add negative connotation.

Consider: "Two teenage Orlando residents in the running for
international science award."

In this case, "teenage" informs but it also has a positive effect. We
don't expect teenagers to be competitive in scientific research.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 16:56:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.
You did not contrast "teenage" with "adult" but with "single female,"
which naturally produces a different result.
Post by Tony Cooper
Your reply above, though, puts that sentence in context where the
pregnancy rate is a good thing. When using the "single female"
substitution, and the surrounding context of the sentence was about
the plight of single females and income disparity, pregnancy would not
be a good thing.
Post by h***@gmail.com
But, by contrast, the "highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe" sounds
worrisome, louche, as if someone has not been minding the store.
I don't think that the word "teenage" itself automatically creates a
negative connotation or suggests inherent moral irresponsibility.
Context can lead to that, or context can leave it neutral.
Post by h***@gmail.com
The behavior of teenagers is not seen as morally equivalent to the behavior
of adults.
This is why the term "teenage men" is significant. Why do you think this
term did not exist before the 1960s? Is it because everyone expected that
an 18-year-old would behave as an adult, and if they didn't, it was a sign of
some strange personal aberration?
I certainly won't defend or attempt to explain the term "teenage men".
I don't like it. But, a discussion about the connotation of the word
"teenage" in a sentence is not limited to this mismatched pairing.
Consider: "Two teenage shooters in a Colorado school killed one
student and wounded others." The use of "teenage" in that sentence
informs, but does not add negative connotation.
In this example, "teenage" does not add *negative* connotation, but it
does add the connotations of "not adult" and therefore "not fully
responsible." This is exactly the problem with "teenage men."
Post by Tony Cooper
Consider: "Two teenage Orlando residents in the running for
international science award."
In this case, "teenage" informs but it also has a positive effect. We
don't expect teenagers to be competitive in scientific research.
Tony Cooper
2019-05-11 17:04:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.
You did not contrast "teenage" with "adult" but with "single female,"
which naturally produces a different result.
Yes, but you said that replacing "teenage" with "adult" produces a
different result. Wasn't that your point...that the word "teenage"
produces a certain result ("perception")? Changing "teenage" to
"adult" changes the group, and I've just used a different group.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 17:12:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.
You did not contrast "teenage" with "adult" but with "single female,"
which naturally produces a different result.
Yes, but you said that replacing "teenage" with "adult" produces a
different result. Wasn't that your point...that the word "teenage"
produces a certain result ("perception")? Changing "teenage" to
"adult" changes the group, and I've just used a different group.
Indeed. If you were to substitute "teenage" with "chimpanzee," you
also would get a differently different result. Why not try substituting
"teenage" with "adult" in this example and see what happens?

Best,
Helen
Tony Cooper
2019-05-11 18:51:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.
You did not contrast "teenage" with "adult" but with "single female,"
which naturally produces a different result.
Yes, but you said that replacing "teenage" with "adult" produces a
different result. Wasn't that your point...that the word "teenage"
produces a certain result ("perception")? Changing "teenage" to
"adult" changes the group, and I've just used a different group.
Indeed. If you were to substitute "teenage" with "chimpanzee," you
also would get a differently different result. Why not try substituting
"teenage" with "adult" in this example and see what happens?
I see both sentences as identifying the group studied. Nothing more
than that unless it's in additional context.

I'm not sure you understand where you and I differ, here. I don't
disagree that the inclusion of "teenage" in a sentence *can* create a
particular perception, but don't see it as adding a perception of
"inherent moral irresponsibility" or always creating some impression.
I don't see it as suggestive of anything in particular other than
being informational.

At one time, some years back, I could write "I have a teenage son and
daughter". There are many perceptions that that might trigger in the
reader's mind, but I certainly wouldn't expect it to suggest "inherent
moral irresponsibility".

Absent additional context, it is merely informational about the ages.
It's just as neutral as what I would say today: I have a son and a
daughter".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-11 21:14:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
I disagree.
There is much public distress about the declining birth rate in industrial
countries, from Japan to Italy to the US, which is falling below replacement
rate for the population, and threatening the economy, because fewer births
mean fewer workers.
So, the "highest adult pregnancy rate in Europe" would be a cause for
celebration, and a testament to successful governmental or societal
interventions for encouraging reproduction.
You are asking about the connotational effect of a word in a sentence,
and that's what I addressed.
You did not contrast "teenage" with "adult" but with "single female,"
which naturally produces a different result.
Yes, but you said that replacing "teenage" with "adult" produces a
different result. Wasn't that your point...that the word "teenage"
produces a certain result ("perception")? Changing "teenage" to
"adult" changes the group, and I've just used a different group.
Indeed. If you were to substitute "teenage" with "chimpanzee," you
also would get a differently different result. Why not try substituting
"teenage" with "adult" in this example and see what happens?
(It often seems as though Tony has very little "theory of mind" -- he
often has difficulty in seeing things from someone else's point of view
-- and as for implications and presuppositions, fuggeddaboutit!)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-11 21:08:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Consider: "Two teenage Orlando residents in the running for
international science award."
"Two Orlando high school students ..."
Post by Tony Cooper
In this case, "teenage" informs but it also has a positive effect. We
don't expect teenagers to be competitive in scientific research.
Maybe they were dropouts.

Though does "international science award" to a high school student
necessarily recognize something that might be considered "scientific
research"?

Maybe it was a competition to prepare a lesson plan for introducing
young children to an important concept like climate change.
Quinn C
2019-05-13 04:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
Teenage pregnancy is problematic in our current social organization,
because teenagers are not fully functional adults, even at 18 or 19.
For some purposes, even people in their early 20s aren't. That's not
inherent in the word.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
Loaded sentence. "Angst and rebellion" are what suggest anticipated
irresponsibility. Immorality is not suggested, though.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
Again, "teenage" just defines a group, but I don't see a connotation
moral irresponsibility. Teenagers have many issues that are not
morality issues.
I see no difference in judgment when exchanging for "adult".
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
That suggests something about interest in popular musical groups, but
nothing about moral irresponsibility.
Quite the opposite - "adult magazines" are morally questionable,
"teenage magazines" aren't.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It’s a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Tony Cooper
2019-05-13 05:03:21 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 May 2019 00:22:49 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
? ?This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.?
Yabbut, the suggestion of immorality is in "highest pregnancy rate".
"Teenage" just defines a group. Change "teenage" to "single female"
and you have defined a different group with the same suggestion.
Teenage pregnancy is problematic in our current social organization,
because teenagers are not fully functional adults, even at 18 or 19.
For some purposes, even people in their early 20s aren't. That's not
inherent in the word.
Teenagers may not be fully functional between the ears, but the rest
of them is fully functional. Else there would not be teenage
pregnancy.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-05-13 06:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
Again, "teenage" just defines a group, but I don't see a connotation
moral irresponsibility. Teenagers have many issues that are not
morality issues.
I see no difference in judgment when exchanging for "adult".
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
That suggests something about interest in popular musical groups, but
nothing about moral irresponsibility.
Quite the opposite - "adult magazines" are morally questionable,
"teenage magazines" aren't.
Some years back, I tried to Google a course of treatment for a problem I
wanted to avoid bothering my doctor with (and incurring the cost of an
office visit just to be given instructions I could have found for
myself)...I added a qualifier to the search term to filter out the
pediatric form of the problem I was dealing with, which seemed to be
more prevalent than my own age group....

Trust me, if you're at all prudish, you do *not* want to search the web
for "adult ear infections"....r

occam
2019-05-11 12:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.’
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’
Interesting exercise. Is 'teenage magazine' the exception here? The
adult variety is certainly the one that elicits a stronger emotional
reaction, at least in male adults. I agree however, 'teenage' renders
the rest of the examples with more emotional charge.
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 16:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by h***@gmail.com
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.’
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’
Interesting exercise. Is 'teenage magazine' the exception here? The
adult variety is certainly the one that elicits a stronger emotional
reaction, at least in male adults.
True! Especially all those back numbers of National Geographic, I'm told.
Post by occam
I agree however, 'teenage' renders
the rest of the examples with more emotional charge.
Lewis
2019-05-11 12:41:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by h***@gmail.com
It is disingenuous to suggest that "teenage men" is not a more culturally
charged usage than "men in their 20s." "Teenage" has such a strong
connotation of inherent moral irresponsibility...
Huh?
OK. Take any of these sample sentences gathered from Oxford online, and
try substituting "adult" for "teenage." See if it changes your perception of the
topic. For instance, contrast "teenage pregnancy" with "adult pregnancy."
Any difference in your emotional reaction? It certainly changes that of most
people.
• ‘This is one reason why Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe.’
Teen pregnancy is simply a restriction on pregnancy. It is other a very
new concept, as it was not that long ago that a woman who reached 20
without being married and having children was regarded as a spinster or
barren.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘She had a passion for philosophy and the study of teenage angst and rebellion.’
And, again. Angst is not something restricted to teenagers, but teenaged
angst is rather different than, say, the mid 40s angst of the "midlife
crisis".
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘It is targeted at teens and deals with complex teenage issues in a mature manner.’
er. OK?
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The cards will also be distributed with copies of popular teenage magazines such as Smash Hits.’
Se above.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘The group is fresh out of high school and explores profound issues like teenage love.’
A restricted subset of love focusing on the young? Ok. Not seeing
irresponsible implied here.
Post by h***@gmail.com
• ‘There is only one thing that leads to teenage pregnancy and that is teenage sex.’
See first comment.

I think it is very easy for old people to be dismissive and look down
on the yoots since so many adults seem to be cursed with a fascinating
myopia that causes them to forget nearly everything about who they were
when they themselves were younger, even if most adults have hardly
changed at all since they were 16 or so.

Occasionally I hear about someone I knew in High School (or Jr High
school) who is complaining on Facebook about something like teenaged sex
and I think, "Didn't she sleep with like 40 guys the 5 years I knew
her?" or "Wasn't he the guy who spent all of high school cheating on his
girlfriends?"

Or the girl I knew in passing in college who once got so drunk she
stripped naked and lay on the sidewalk outside her sorority house in an
effort to get a "moon tan" railing against people older than she was
then being allowed to drink (She was trying to convince people the
drinking age should be raised to 25).

Overcompensating much?

But, I could give plenty of example of far more damaging irresponsible
behavior from adults. Including dumb pregnancies, dumb drunks, dumb
relationships. etc. Foolishness, lack of foresight, immaturity, and
recklessness are not the domains of the young alone.
--
Rumour is information distilled so finely that it can filter through
anything. It does not need doors and windows -- sometimes it does not
need people. It can exist free and wild, running from ear to ear without
ever touching lips.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-11 12:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Your position is akin to saying that "black heart" is no more negatively
freighted than "purple heart." Just a couple of random colors stuck
to an organ.
Do we know why Washington chose the color purple for the award that was
the forerunner of the Purple Heart?
h***@gmail.com
2019-05-11 16:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by h***@gmail.com
Your position is akin to saying that "black heart" is no more negatively
freighted than "purple heart." Just a couple of random colors stuck
to an organ.
Do we know why Washington chose the color purple for the award that was
the forerunner of the Purple Heart?
I don't.... do you?

Best,
Helen
Peter T. Daniels
2019-05-11 21:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by h***@gmail.com
Your position is akin to saying that "black heart" is no more negatively
freighted than "purple heart." Just a couple of random colors stuck
to an organ.
Do we know why Washington chose the color purple for the award that was
the forerunner of the Purple Heart?
I don't.... do you?
I certainly don't after reading the (very long) Wikiparticle! But it
seems that the claim "George Washington awarded the first Purple Heart
to his troops at ..." is incorrect. There was no heart design in the
original, and it was not given after Washington's war until the wake of WWI.
bill van
2019-05-11 05:40:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
That remains an awkward usage,
Only because you're not used to it.
Torture victim: This is really very uncomfortable.

Torturer: Only because you're not used to it.

That is not to say that your usage is as bad as torture, but that your argument
in favour of it lacks substance.
Post by Mark Brader
Post by bill van
and "young men" is available.
But that's less specific.
It can be made as specific as the available information allows, simply
by adding ages.
I gather you'd like "teenage men" to mean ages 18 and 19, but that's
like some of those
stripped-down test sentences a few people post here. They can't convey
information
that you haven't put into them; the usage you are promoting is not
established enough
for a reasonable person to conclude that "teenage men" means only males aged
18 or 19.

bill
Quinn C
2019-05-13 04:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
Post by bill van
Post by Mark Brader
What'd be clearer in a news report is to give their exact age. But
sometimes this information is not available, in which case you get
expressions like "two men in their 30s" or "two men in their 20s".
Well, go younger than that and the next category is teenage men.
That remains an awkward usage,
Only because you're not used to it.
Torture victim: This is really very uncomfortable.
Torturer: Only because you're not used to it.
That is not to say that your usage is as bad as torture, but that your argument
in favour of it lacks substance.
Rejected: it's a regular occurrence in language that a usage grates the
first few times you hear it, and becomes unremarkable a few years
later.
--
Do not they speak false English ... that doth not speak thou to one,
and what ever he be, Father, Mother, King, or Judge, is he not a
Novice, and Unmannerly, and an Ideot, and a Fool, that speaks Your
to one, which is not to be spoken to a singular, but to many?
-- George Fox (1660)
J. J. Lodder
2019-05-12 12:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Mark Brader <***@vex.net> wrote:

Is it really to hard for you to insert the correct number of chevrons
when taking text out of context?
You have
===========
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage
("teenage
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news...
I hadn't noticed it myself, but I'll defend it.
Post by Cheryl
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
I suggest that it sounds weird *to you* because you aren't really used
to
the concept some teenagers *are* men.
===========

It should be
============
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
No, this is not a personal ad, but a comment on an odd usage
("teenage
Post by Cheryl
Post by h***@gmail.com
men") that I've noticed popping up recently in the news...
I hadn't noticed it myself, but I'll defend it.
Post by Cheryl
It sounds weird because it conflates two categories - "teens" and "men".
I suggest that it sounds weird *to you* because you aren't really used
to
the concept some teenagers *are* men.
==========

The rule is simple: the number of chevrons before a name
is always one less than before the quoted text from that name.

If you do it right it remains possible to see who wrote what
in further replies.

Jan
l***@yahoo.com
2019-05-10 14:06:32 UTC
Permalink
Reminds me of what a fictional character once pointed out: "You can't say 'grown man.' That's a redundancy."

In the same vein, sometimes, when I want to focus on people over 21, I feel the need to say "adult males" or "adult females" so people will sense I'm not including those people aged 18-21.


Lenona.
Jerry Friedman
2019-05-10 21:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@yahoo.com
Reminds me of what a fictional character once pointed out: "You can't say 'grown man.' That's a redundancy."
In the same vein, sometimes, when I want to focus on people over 21, I feel the need to say "adult males" or "adult females" so people will sense I'm not including those people aged 18-21.
Huh. I'd expect those terms, when applied to human beings, to include
people 18 and over.
--
Jerry Friedman
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