Post by CDB Post by Quinn C Post by CDB Post by Quinn C Post by CDB Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know
that I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny
your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not
a princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a
princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for women" to
be of prime importance. That is part of a political drive for power,
but there is also an evolutionary aspect to it: female humans have value
in themselves because they can give birth, where male humans have
whatever value they can demonstrate. I understand that the same is true
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If you
continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't think
this is a major factor.
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Of course that's also based on my worldview that our brains have freed
us from the slavery of genetic programming, and we're not "essentially
Post by CDB Post by Quinn C
Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names are
hard to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently harder
to get in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for awareness.
Call me Murgatroyd or call me Madam; I won't care, although I might take
an apparent intention to offend (as when Rey used to address you as
"Quim") as an opportunity to play with my interlocutor. The point is to
deal with others as individuals, not as icons of group identity.
This view, as reasonable as it sounds, always tends to overlook the
group identities that are so ingrained that most of us don't think twice
before making them the basis of all our interactions. That's exactly
what I want to shake up! I want to be treated as an individual, rather
than as a man or a woman. My end goal is to make gender a private matter
along the lines of where religion is now (maybe not quite in the US
yet). Me claiming a third identity is just an intermediary step that
seems necessary to get some of the results in my lifetime.
Post by CDB
Your feelings are your business. It's fair game to
point out your preferences, once in a while, but not to harp on them.
Nobody else really cares what your pronouns are -- I don't, although I
seem to recall that I usually use a neutral one for you. I do that
because I'm (usually) pretty agreeable by nature and because I don't
usually) feel annoyed enough by your nagging to snap at you.
Calling someone's demands "nagging" is often a sign of disrespect (not
suprisingly, usually aimed at women.) If I got what I asked for, I
wouldn't have to repeat it.
The impression can get warped in a group setting where I may react to
different people at different times. Although I know, of course, that
Tony himself is a lost cause here and will always regard women as a
different species of animal who magically know which button to press on
a washing machine.
Post by CDB Post by Quinn C
If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.
Condescending twerp (a snap).
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel" already
sets you off? I provided an alternative version above. They mean
pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted)
I'm aware that in generations before mine, almost all men were brought
up to despise "feelings", so it's a normal state of affairs unless
someone has worked on themself in that area - thus making them less
"masc". I regularly meet people who've done that and think it's a
Post by CDB
but I wouldn't say that I am terribly masculine.
If asked to name characteristics that describe me, I would put
"maternal" on the list (Also "stoic", but both my parents,
acknowledgedly male and female -- respectively -- were stoics too).
But sometimes mama spank.
Your word choice of "princess" made me wonder whether the source of
friction could also be another difference of fundamental view of
Some people may take offense to my "demands" because they think life is
a battlefield and you have to hunker down where I'm asking for
"handouts" - what I'd call vaguely politically "right". Whereas I
consider myself a true lefty who thinks we can and should have a society
that is decent for all - with UBI, free healthcare and no billionaires.
That's my goal here, not personal privilege - I already have a lot of
that. I present myself as a test case for treating everyone decently,
and feel an obligation to speak up where others can even less afford to
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)