Discussion:
Extrovert
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Peter Moylan
2021-04-17 05:14:19 UTC
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I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.

A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.

The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
J. J. Lodder
2021-04-17 11:10:39 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
Wikipedia agrees with you,

Jan
Mack A. Damia
2021-04-17 14:50:39 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
Wikipedia agrees with you,
Lots of misunderstanding about "introvert" and "extrovert".

There was a meme on Facebook based on the MBTI:

https://tinyurl.com/z9797rmm

Problem is that "popularity" has nothing to do with the I/E scale.
Quinn C
2021-04-20 22:05:42 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.

On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
--
I try not to dwell on what's right and what's wrong.
It slows my processors.
-- Rommie (Andromeda ship AI)
occam
2021-04-21 05:27:51 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.
On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
A corollary of that last sentence is that a number of words are begging
to be invented:

Introterrestrial (cf extraterrestrial)

introsensory (cf extrasensory)

intromarital (extramarital)

intravagant (extravagant)

etc...

[exceptions: interpolate / extrapolate]
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-21 12:36:35 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.
On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Quinn C
2021-04-21 17:03:10 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.
On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey
Janet
2021-04-22 11:29:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.
On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.

Janet
Quinn C
2021-04-22 14:03:14 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
I was annoyed at my crossword this morning. I filled in the word
"extravert", and then couldn't find anything for one of the crossing
words. The reason, it turned out, is that the "correct" solution was
extrovert.
A search now tells me that the latter spelling is very common. A nearly
as I can tell, the current correct spelling of this word is "extravert"
if you're a psychologist, but "extrovert" for non-psychologists.
Apparently I'm a closet psychologist.
The matching spelling "intravert" has not taken hold, so people have not
forgotten half of the intro/extra pair.
I see a problem in that there aren't any other widely known pairs of
words with intro/extra prefixes.
On the other hand, it's strange that it went the way it did given that
intra- is much more common than extro-, and there's no shortage of
intra/extra pairs (intracellular/extracellular etc.)
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
???

Has anyone ever maintained the absurd idea that "intercourse" was
gendered in any way?
--
Motives? Who cares for motives? Humans, perhaps.
-- Klingon Ambassador Kell
Peter Moylan
2021-04-23 00:45:15 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
To pair with "extracourse", for people who just want more.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
occam
2021-04-23 06:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
Funny, I thought intracourse was the little nibble between the starter
and the main course at an Italian restaurant.
Janet
2021-04-23 12:20:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@nowhere.nix
says...
Post by occam
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
Funny, I thought intracourse was the little nibble between the starter
and the main course at an Italian restaurant.
How I would love to be in Italy right now

Janet.
J. J. Lodder
2021-04-23 14:20:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by occam
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You introduce an extraneous problem. "Intra-" means 'between', Intro-"
means 'entering'.
Sure, but it's not always obvious that that's what's meant. I think many
understand an introvert (who focuses on receiving rather than sending)
also or even primarily as an intravert (who keeps things inside rather
than letting them out.)
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
Funny, I thought intracourse was the little nibble between the starter
and the main course at an Italian restaurant.
How I would love to be in Italy right now
Yes! On an uncrowded Piazza Della Signoria...

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2021-04-25 01:38:22 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Janet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-25 13:37:56 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
It used to be that you'd get a layer cake with white frosting and when
you cut it, the cake would be pink or blue.
Quinn C
2021-04-25 16:17:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
It used to be that you'd get a layer cake with white frosting and when
you cut it, the cake would be pink or blue.
And the woman who started the fad regrets it and has called for a stop.
Her oldest daughter turned out to be a tomboy and now tells her "Mom,
there are many genders".
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2021-04-25 17:04:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:17:12 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
It used to be that you'd get a layer cake with white frosting and when
you cut it, the cake would be pink or blue.
And the woman who started the fad regrets it and has called for a stop.
Her oldest daughter turned out to be a tomboy and now tells her "Mom,
there are many genders".
When our two children were born (1967 and 1969) the "reveal" was when
the delivering doctor announced "It's a girl" or "It's a boy". We had
no prior knowledge other than my mother-in-law's predictions based on
how my wife was "carrying". (She was right in both cases)

I doubt if my wife would call what immediately preceeded the
announcement a "party".

The doctor confused me, after our son's birth, when he came to the
room where I was waiting for the news by saying "It's a blue card". He
then handed me a blue card with my son's footprint on it. I didn't
understand, and asked if it was a boy or a girl.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-04-25 17:35:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 12:17:12 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
It used to be that you'd get a layer cake with white frosting and when
you cut it, the cake would be pink or blue.
And the woman who started the fad regrets it and has called for a stop.
Her oldest daughter turned out to be a tomboy and now tells her "Mom,
there are many genders".
and many genderesses.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Quinn C
2021-04-25 16:08:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Janet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-25 17:24:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?

What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
Quinn C
2021-04-25 18:01:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?

We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.

But I guess you're one of those people, too.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2021-04-25 18:48:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:01:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
Doesn't it? At that point in time? The ultasound reveal is of a
fetus.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Quinn C
2021-04-25 19:29:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:01:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
Doesn't it? At that point in time? The ultasound reveal is of a
fetus.
And a fetus does not have gender.

Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now, we should
stop using it for something else.

Children develop a gender identity typically around the age of 3.

Even the model "sex is different from and doesn't indicate gender" is an
over-simplification, but at this point, it's about as much as I hope
that a general public can wrap their heads around.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-25 19:58:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
Post by Quinn C
we should
stop using it for something else.
Quinn C
2021-04-25 22:20:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.

If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-04-26 11:08:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no obligation
and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Quinn C
2021-04-26 13:00:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no obligation
and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-04-26 20:08:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many
people would hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a
"sex reveal party". But given that "gender" is the usual word
for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that
I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny your
maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not a
princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a princess. Get
over yourself.
Quinn C
2021-04-26 23:27:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many
people would hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a
"sex reveal party". But given that "gender" is the usual word
for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that
I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny your
maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not a
princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a princess. Get
over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.

If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If you
continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.

If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you continue
calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.

Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names are hard
to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently harder to get
in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for awareness.

If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.

Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel" already sets
you off? I provided an alternative version above. They mean pretty much
the same to me.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-04-27 12:03:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many
people would hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in
a "sex reveal party". But given that "gender" is the
usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex
doesn't determine gender identity.
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know
that I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny
your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not
a princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a
princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.

Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for women" to
be of prime importance. That is part of a political drive for power,
but there is also an evolutionary aspect to it: female humans have value
in themselves because they can give birth, where male humans have
whatever value they can demonstrate. I understand that the same is true
of chimpanzees.
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If you
continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
Post by Quinn C
Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names are
hard to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently harder
to get in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for awareness.
Call me Murgatroyd or call me Madam; I won't care, although I might take
an apparent intention to offend (as when Rey used to address you as
"Quim") as an opportunity to play with my interlocutor. The point is to
deal with others as individuals, not as icons of group identity.

Your feelings are your business. It's fair game to
point out your preferences, once in a while, but not to harp on them.
Nobody else really cares what your pronouns are -- I don't, although I
seem to recall that I usually use a neutral one for you. I do that
because I'm (usually) pretty agreeable by nature and because I don't
usually) feel annoyed enough by your nagging to snap at you.
Post by Quinn C
If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.
Condescending twerp (a snap).
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel" already
sets you off? I provided an alternative version above. They mean
pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted) but I wouldn't say that I am terribly masculine.
If asked to name characteristics that describe me, I would put
"maternal" on the list (Also "stoic", but both my parents,
acknowledgedly male and female -- respectively -- were stoics too).

But sometimes mama spank.
--
And, in case it wasn't clear, my reference to your ageism and sexism was
a way of playing with you.
Quinn C
2021-04-28 23:50:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know
that I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny
your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not
a princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a
princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for women" to
be of prime importance. That is part of a political drive for power,
but there is also an evolutionary aspect to it: female humans have value
in themselves because they can give birth, where male humans have
whatever value they can demonstrate. I understand that the same is true
of chimpanzees.
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If you
continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't think
this is a major factor.

I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).

We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
of us.

My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.

Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.

Of course that's also based on my worldview that our brains have freed
us from the slavery of genetic programming, and we're not "essentially
still cave(wo)men".
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names are
hard to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently harder
to get in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for awareness.
Call me Murgatroyd or call me Madam; I won't care, although I might take
an apparent intention to offend (as when Rey used to address you as
"Quim") as an opportunity to play with my interlocutor. The point is to
deal with others as individuals, not as icons of group identity.
This view, as reasonable as it sounds, always tends to overlook the
group identities that are so ingrained that most of us don't think twice
before making them the basis of all our interactions. That's exactly
what I want to shake up! I want to be treated as an individual, rather
than as a man or a woman. My end goal is to make gender a private matter
along the lines of where religion is now (maybe not quite in the US
yet). Me claiming a third identity is just an intermediary step that
seems necessary to get some of the results in my lifetime.
Post by CDB
Your feelings are your business. It's fair game to
point out your preferences, once in a while, but not to harp on them.
Nobody else really cares what your pronouns are -- I don't, although I
seem to recall that I usually use a neutral one for you. I do that
because I'm (usually) pretty agreeable by nature and because I don't
usually) feel annoyed enough by your nagging to snap at you.
Calling someone's demands "nagging" is often a sign of disrespect (not
suprisingly, usually aimed at women.) If I got what I asked for, I
wouldn't have to repeat it.

The impression can get warped in a group setting where I may react to
different people at different times. Although I know, of course, that
Tony himself is a lost cause here and will always regard women as a
different species of animal who magically know which button to press on
a washing machine.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.
Condescending twerp (a snap).
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel" already
sets you off? I provided an alternative version above. They mean
pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted)
I'm aware that in generations before mine, almost all men were brought
up to despise "feelings", so it's a normal state of affairs unless
someone has worked on themself in that area - thus making them less
"masc". I regularly meet people who've done that and think it's a
worthwhile endeavor.
Post by CDB
but I wouldn't say that I am terribly masculine.
If asked to name characteristics that describe me, I would put
"maternal" on the list (Also "stoic", but both my parents,
acknowledgedly male and female -- respectively -- were stoics too).
But sometimes mama spank.
Your word choice of "princess" made me wonder whether the source of
friction could also be another difference of fundamental view of
society.

Some people may take offense to my "demands" because they think life is
a battlefield and you have to hunker down where I'm asking for
"handouts" - what I'd call vaguely politically "right". Whereas I
consider myself a true lefty who thinks we can and should have a society
that is decent for all - with UBI, free healthcare and no billionaires.
That's my goal here, not personal privilege - I already have a lot of
that. I present myself as a test case for treating everyone decently,
and feel an obligation to speak up where others can even less afford to
do so.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Janet
2021-04-29 11:25:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I present myself as a test case for treating everyone decently,
And you falls flat on your face because YOU, right here on aue, do not
treat people different from you, with the respect you seek and demand
for yourself.

You disparage "cis", "masc"; your sig quotations disparage women. You
trot out fatuous generalities about men, women,other generations, which
reveal your cringe-making ignorance of history just one generation ago.

Your curled lip is the reason you don't earn respect.

The great irony is that you imagine yourself as a woke flag carrier,
without the faintest awareness that you're deafly and blindly dragging
it through the mire of your own prejudice and ignorance.

Janet.
Arindam Banerjee
2021-04-29 11:59:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender
identity to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know
that I have to be prepared to be misgendered and otherwise
disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have no
obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to deny
your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you are not
a princess; you never were a princess; you never will be a
princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
From other men or women in general?
Robotic men should not expect respect. Nor should stupid men, mean men, etc.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for women" to
be of prime importance. That is part of a political drive for power,
but there is also an evolutionary aspect to it: female humans have value
in themselves because they can give birth, where male humans have
whatever value they can demonstrate. I understand that the same is true
of chimpanzees.
Can female chimpanzees cook?
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If you
continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Are you mixed up?
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't think
this is a major factor.
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
Where do you live?
Post by Quinn C
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
of us.
Are women so stupid and inferior where you live, to think the way you think they do?
Patriarchy gives men responsibility and women protection.
It gets obsolete where men are irresponsible and women are independent.
Post by Quinn C
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
What is more central to society than reproduction?
Without reproduction there is no society, unless we are talking of collective suicide on one hand and continuing with migration on the other for keeping the economy going.
Post by Quinn C
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Ugh, a robot here seeking to mate with machines.
Post by Quinn C
Of course that's also based on my worldview that our brains have freed
us from the slavery of genetic programming, and we're not "essentially
still cave(wo)men".
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names are
hard to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently harder
to get in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for awareness.
Call me Murgatroyd or call me Madam; I won't care, although I might take
an apparent intention to offend (as when Rey used to address you as
"Quim") as an opportunity to play with my interlocutor. The point is to
deal with others as individuals, not as icons of group identity.
This view, as reasonable as it sounds, always tends to overlook the
group identities that are so ingrained that most of us don't think twice
before making them the basis of all our interactions. That's exactly
what I want to shake up! I want to be treated as an individual, rather
than as a man or a woman. My end goal is to make gender a private matter
along the lines of where religion is now (maybe not quite in the US
yet). Me claiming a third identity is just an intermediary step that
seems necessary to get some of the results in my lifetime.
Post by CDB
Your feelings are your business. It's fair game to
point out your preferences, once in a while, but not to harp on them.
Nobody else really cares what your pronouns are -- I don't, although I
seem to recall that I usually use a neutral one for you. I do that
because I'm (usually) pretty agreeable by nature and because I don't
usually) feel annoyed enough by your nagging to snap at you.
Calling someone's demands "nagging" is often a sign of disrespect (not
suprisingly, usually aimed at women.) If I got what I asked for, I
wouldn't have to repeat it.
The impression can get warped in a group setting where I may react to
different people at different times. Although I know, of course, that
Tony himself is a lost cause here and will always regard women as a
different species of animal who magically know which button to press on
a washing machine.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.
Condescending twerp (a snap).
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel" already
sets you off? I provided an alternative version above. They mean
pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted)
I'm aware that in generations before mine, almost all men were brought
up to despise "feelings", so it's a normal state of affairs unless
someone has worked on themself in that area - thus making them less
"masc". I regularly meet people who've done that and think it's a
worthwhile endeavor.
Post by CDB
but I wouldn't say that I am terribly masculine.
If asked to name characteristics that describe me, I would put
"maternal" on the list (Also "stoic", but both my parents,
acknowledgedly male and female -- respectively -- were stoics too).
But sometimes mama spank.
Your word choice of "princess" made me wonder whether the source of
friction could also be another difference of fundamental view of
society.
Some people may take offense to my "demands" because they think life is
a battlefield and you have to hunker down where I'm asking for
"handouts" - what I'd call vaguely politically "right". Whereas I
consider myself a true lefty who thinks we can and should have a society
that is decent for all - with UBI, free healthcare and no billionaires.
That's my goal here, not personal privilege - I already have a lot of
that. I present myself as a test case for treating everyone decently,
and feel an obligation to speak up where others can even less afford to
do so.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-29 14:28:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't think
this is a major factor.
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
of us.
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
That's an utterly Eurocentric, WEIRD [a term catching on in sociology:
Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic] attitude.
Post by Quinn C
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Speak for your own culture.
Quinn C
2021-04-29 15:57:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a "dick"
(sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you feel you
deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't think
this is a major factor.
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
of us.
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic] attitude.
Post by Quinn C
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Speak for your own culture.
Who ever doubted that I was speaking for the culture that I share with
all but a handful of participants here? Although I think it largely
applies to Japan and China as well.

This objection is especially rich from someone whose general statements
are usually at best valid for the region of New York City.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-29 19:53:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic] attitude.
Post by Quinn C
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Speak for your own culture.
Who ever doubted that I was speaking for the culture that I share with
all but a handful of participants here?
A culture shared by a minor fraction of the 8 billion or so humans.
Post by Quinn C
Although I think it largely
applies to Japan and China as well.
How many of the presumable 4 billion women have this "increased freedom"
you tout up top?
Post by Quinn C
This objection is especially rich from someone whose general statements
are usually at best valid for the region of New York City.
Paul Wolff
2021-04-29 19:22:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to bring
reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone, under
the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here. Yours
may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is used to make
women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm looking for
"basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect as every one
of us.
I trace patriarchy to quite different roots, but admit my knowledge
limited. I think I know more about ancient Roman society than I do about
ancient Jewish society, perhaps because the Bible frequently puzzles me
by sins of omission. In Rome, the paterfamilias took charge of the
necessary rites for harvest success, appeasing the lares and penates,
etc. etc. And that's not just reading into the etymology of 'patriarch'.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the last
100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't easily
reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades are due to
the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to society any more.
But you can't complain that a man, given the choice, would rather /not/
support another man's child who has been cuckolded upon him.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic] attitude.
New to me, and it triggers a number of responses. First, that in their
'natural' meanings, by which I mean without subtext in-group baggage,
the adjectives weird and queer are overlapping synonyms but the groups
denoted have minimal relation to one another; secondly, is it known
whether the originator(s) of that WEIRD intended to provoke that
association; thirdly, I can't see any need to select one particular word
from the English lexicon to denote Western, etc., as presented here. I
mean, who wants to define a group that way? Oh, of course -
sociologists, who get a bad enough press anyway in conservative circles.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in another
few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right machines.
Speak for your own culture.
Public respect is due to every human being /qua/ human being; while
private respect is not an entitlement, but is earned.
--
Paul
CDB
2021-04-30 12:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my
gender identity to conform wo my biological attributes,
and I know that I have to be prepared to be misgendered
and otherwise disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have
no obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to
think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the
last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to
deny your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you
are not a princess; you never were a princess; you never will
be a princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for
women" to be of prime importance. That is part of a political
female humans have value in themselves because they can give birth,
where male humans have whatever value they can demonstrate. I
understand that the same is true of chimpanzees.
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If
you continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think
you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a
"dick" (sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you
feel you deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't
think this is a major factor.
This thread is now too long to follow easily. The remark that surprises
you came after, and was related to, my contention that automatic respect
for women (or females of some other species) is derived from their
innate potential as producers of the next generation.
Post by Quinn C
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to
bring reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone,
under the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
The respect men get is not automatic. Those who earn it get it; those
who do not earn it do not.
Post by Quinn C
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here.
Yours may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is
used to make women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm
looking for "basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect
as every one of us.
That adoration (a minstering angel thou) was cultural, a Victorian
convention that went with a limited and protected status for the Weaker
Sex. Now that feminists claim the right to take the risks (or pretend
to) that used to be assigned to men, we'll see how long that evolved
general respect holds out against the new equality.

There was a story line recently in _South Park_in which Strong Woman,
partner of PC Principal, had her Olympic hopes dashed by ruthless
competition from a former boyfriend now identifying (intrans.) as a woman.
Post by Quinn C
My "grand theory" is that the increased freedom for women in the
last 100 years, and the increasing acceptance for people who don't
easily reproduce (gay, trans, intersexual) in the last few decades
are due to the fact that reproduction isn't nearly as central to
society any more.
Therefore, I don't think the respect that comes from the capacity to
reproduce will ever reach the heights again that it once had; in
another few decades, it'll be a matter of access to the right
machines.
Of course that's also based on my worldview that our brains have
freed us from the slavery of genetic programming, and we're not
"essentially still cave(wo)men".
It does seem to be a common notion that our species has somehow freed
itself from the influence of natural selection. IMO that stems from the
same kind of monkey arrogance that used to let us call the other animals
"animals" and ourselves something better.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Same thing. The first is technically harder, because some names
are hard to pronounce or to remember, but the second is currently
harder to get in practice. Therefore I continue lobbying for
awareness.
Thread tl; no idea what that relates to.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Call me Murgatroyd or call me Madam; I won't care, although I might
take an apparent intention to offend (as when Rey used to address
you as "Quim") as an opportunity to play with my interlocutor. The
point is to deal with others as individuals, not as icons of group
identity.
This view, as reasonable as it sounds, always tends to overlook the
group identities that are so ingrained that most of us don't think
twice before making them the basis of all our interactions. That's
exactly what I want to shake up! I want to be treated as an
individual, rather than as a man or a woman. My end goal is to make
gender a private matter along the lines of where religion is now
(maybe not quite in the US yet). Me claiming a third identity is just
an intermediary step that seems necessary to get some of the results
in my lifetime.
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Your feelings are your business. It's fair game to point out your
preferences, once in a while, but not to harp on them. Nobody else
really cares what your pronouns are -- I don't, although I seem to
recall that I usually use a neutral one for you. I do that because
I'm (usually) pretty agreeable by nature and because I don't
usually) feel annoyed enough by your nagging to snap at you.
Calling someone's demands "nagging" is often a sign of disrespect
(not suprisingly, usually aimed at women.) If I got what I asked for,
I wouldn't have to repeat it.
You still don't have to; you choose to (see below).
Post by Quinn C
The impression can get warped in a group setting where I may react
to different people at different times. Although I know, of course,
that Tony himself is a lost cause here and will always regard women
as a different species of animal who magically know which button to
press on a washing machine.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If that rubs you the wrong way, I think it says more about you than me.
Condescending twerp (a snap).
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel"
already sets you off? I provided an alternative version above.
They mean pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted)
I'm aware that in generations before mine, almost all men were
brought up to despise "feelings", so it's a normal state of affairs
unless someone has worked on themself in that area - thus making them
less "masc". I regularly meet people who've done that and think it's
a worthwhile endeavor.
My generation came before yours, if only slightly, and I can tell you
that IME that is nonsense. We were brought up not to whine about our
feelings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
but I wouldn't say that I am terribly masculine. If asked to name
characteristics that describe me, I would put "maternal" on the
list (Also "stoic", but both my parents, acknowledgedly male and
female -- respectively -- were stoics too).
But sometimes mama spank.
Your word choice of "princess" made me wonder whether the source of
friction could also be another difference of fundamental view of
society.
Some people may take offense to my "demands" because they think life
is a battlefield and you have to hunker down where I'm asking for
"handouts" - what I'd call vaguely politically "right". Whereas I
consider myself a true lefty who thinks we can and should have a
society that is decent for all - with UBI, free healthcare and no
billionaires. That's my goal here, not personal privilege - I already
have a lot of that. I present myself as a test case for treating
everyone decently, and feel an obligation to speak up where others
can even less afford to do so.
Your basic belief is clearly that others had better do as you say if
they want the yammering to stop.

I don't think either of us will live to see the outcome of a continued
drift in the direction you like; I'm afraid it will be unpleasant for
those who do.

I have complained about the length of this thread. I don't intend to
make it any longer after this.
Mack A. Damia
2021-04-30 15:16:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my
gender identity to conform wo my biological attributes,
and I know that I have to be prepared to be misgendered
and otherwise disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have
no obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to
think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to
deny your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you
are not a princess; you never were a princess; you never will
be a princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for
women" to be of prime importance. That is part of a political
female humans have value in themselves because they can give birth,
where male humans have whatever value they can demonstrate. I
understand that the same is true of chimpanzees.
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If
you continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think
you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a
"dick" (sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you
feel you deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't
think this is a major factor.
This thread is now too long to follow easily. The remark that surprises
you came after, and was related to, my contention that automatic respect
for women (or females of some other species) is derived from their
innate potential as producers of the next generation.
"Motherhood" is automatically respected; women are not. Consider that
women were considered "second class citizens" until the social
movements of the 20th Century. They could not vote and were advised
to say barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Of course, I am
referring to the U.S. Not certain about Britain and the European
countries. Also, I don't know where you live.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-30 15:34:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Motherhood" is automatically respected; women are not. Consider that
women were considered "second class citizens" until the social
movements of the 20th Century. They could not vote and were advised
to say barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Of course, I am
referring to the U.S. Not certain about Britain and the European
countries. Also, I don't know where you live.
"Kinder, Kueche, Kirche."
Adam Funk
2021-04-30 15:47:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my
gender identity to conform wo my biological attributes,
and I know that I have to be prepared to be misgendered
and otherwise disrespected.
Possibly even to shrug it off and keep truckin'. You have
no obligation and no mandate to tell other people how to
think.
Read what I've written. If that doesn't help, focus on the last word.
Well, if it's respect you want, these days your decision to
deny your maleness is probably wise. The bad news is this: you
are not a princess; you never were a princess; you never will
be a princess. Get over yourself.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
These days men don't get much respect.
Women, especially including femininsts, consider "respect for
women" to be of prime importance. That is part of a political
female humans have value in themselves because they can give birth,
where male humans have whatever value they can demonstrate. I
understand that the same is true of chimpanzees.
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If
you continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think
you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a
"dick" (sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you
feel you deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't
think this is a major factor.
This thread is now too long to follow easily. The remark that surprises
you came after, and was related to, my contention that automatic respect
for women (or females of some other species) is derived from their
innate potential as producers of the next generation.
"Motherhood" is automatically respected; women are not. Consider that
women were considered "second class citizens" until the social
movements of the 20th Century. They could not vote and were advised
to say barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Of course, I am
referring to the U.S. Not certain about Britain and the European
countries. Also, I don't know where you live.
cf "children, kitchen, church"
--
It takes a thousand men to invent a telegraph, or a steam engine, or a
phonograph, or a telephone or any other important thing --- and the
last man gets the credit and we forget the others. ---Mark Twain
CDB
2021-05-01 12:28:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[rant]
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by CDB
This thread is now too long to follow easily. The remark that
surprises you came after, and was related to, my contention that
automatic respect for women (or females of some other species) is
derived from their innate potential as producers of the next
generation.
"Motherhood" is automatically respected; women are not. Consider
that women were considered "second class citizens" until the social
movements of the 20th Century. They could not vote and were advised
to say barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Of course, I am
referring to the U.S. Not certain about Britain and the European
countries. Also, I don't know where you live.
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
--
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Mack A. Damia
2021-05-01 15:29:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
[rant]
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by CDB
This thread is now too long to follow easily. The remark that
surprises you came after, and was related to, my contention that
automatic respect for women (or females of some other species) is
derived from their innate potential as producers of the next
generation.
"Motherhood" is automatically respected; women are not. Consider
that women were considered "second class citizens" until the social
movements of the 20th Century. They could not vote and were advised
to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. Of course, I am
referring to the U.S. Not certain about Britain and the European
countries. Also, I don't know where you live.
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
--
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
"Hello Canada!"
- Paul Boomer
Sam Plusnet
2021-05-01 18:30:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
  Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Quinn C
2021-05-01 23:37:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
  Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Sam Plusnet
2021-05-02 01:13:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
  Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Quinn C
2021-05-02 13:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
  Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
"Dowisetrepla"?
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-02 13:52:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-02 14:44:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-05-02 16:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:44:14 +0200
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
'Lots of planets have a "North"'
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Quinn C
2021-05-02 17:40:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:44:14 +0200
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
'Lots of planets have a "North"'
It's pretty clear how to define North for the galaxy, but how to set a
meridian? The obvious choice would be "where we are", but apparently,
someone was faster than us.
--
Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct
in which the score is kept.
-- Doug Larson
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-03 12:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:44:14 +0200
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
'Lots of planets have a "North"'
Certainly, but those lots are to dumb to know it by themselves.
We have to tell them,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-02 17:06:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of
the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting in an
unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.

Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-03 09:06:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting in an
unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?

Jan
Paul Wolff
2021-05-03 11:19:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting in an
unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
Ooh Sir, I know that Sir - First Finger = Force, seCond finger =
Current, Thumb = Thrust or Motion. This is a scientific Fact known to
all left-handed Flemings especially. To apply this science to galaxies,
er, well, East is always the direction of rotation of a spinning system,
so west is behind you when you're going forwards, and North is the
direction you look from to see it spinning anti-clockwise. Job done.
--
Paul
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-03 12:46:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting
in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
Ooh Sir, I know that Sir - First Finger = Force, seCond finger =
Current, Thumb = Thrust or Motion. This is a scientific Fact known to
all left-handed Flemings especially.
That's why it is called the right hand rule.
They do everything differently there.
Post by Paul Wolff
To apply this science to galaxies,
er, well, East is always the direction of rotation of a spinning system,
so west is behind you when you're going forwards, and North is the
direction you look from to see it spinning anti-clockwise. Job done.
As right as you can be,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-03 14:52:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting in an
unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Peter Moylan
2021-05-04 01:12:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd, John
2021-05-04 10:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 4 May 2021 12:12:45 +1100
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Wasn't Trantor somewhere special?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2021-05-04 10:36:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Tue, 4 May 2021 12:12:45 +1100
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Wasn't Trantor somewhere special?
I think they measured radius from there.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-04 13:34:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Named after the Roman centurion Hotel Terminus,
(unknown to you)

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-04 14:22:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
Peter Moylan
2021-05-05 02:12:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You
don't have cardinal directions without some external reference
point. What would be the external reference point for determining
which way east or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some
direction for north and south to be, given that the galaxy
rotates around its center, either clockwise or
counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming an
important power in at least part of the galaxy.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-05 09:55:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You
don't have cardinal directions without some external reference
point. What would be the external reference point for determining
which way east or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some
direction for north and south to be, given that the galaxy
rotates around its center, either clockwise or
counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming an
important power in at least part of the galaxy.
Why would they change a coordinate system that had been in use
for thousands of years?

Jan
Peter Moylan
2021-05-05 09:37:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions.
You don't have cardinal directions without some external
reference point. What would be the external reference point
for determining which way east or west was? (Assuming you'd
settled on some direction for north and south to be, given
that the galaxy rotates around its center, either clockwise
or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming an
important power in at least part of the galaxy.
Why would they change a coordinate system that had been in use for
thousands of years?
Good point. I might have picked up some false information. Unfortunately
that's hard to check, because there are too many books in the trilogy.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-05 13:38:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You
don't have cardinal directions without some external reference
point. What would be the external reference point for determining
which way east or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some
direction for north and south to be, given that the galaxy
rotates around its center, either clockwise or
counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming an
important power in at least part of the galaxy.
But he, like Arnold Toynbee, knew everything and predicted
everything.

When Asimov revealed somewhere that The Foundation was all
based on Toynbee, I had the impression that the fall of Toynbee's
influence after WWII was what was reflected in the relative failure
of the many extensions of the trilogy that followed.

Toynbee scholars -- and they were legion -- noted that the second
half of the Outline of History (post WWII) tried desperately to cling
to the faith-based outline originally devised in the early 1930s, but
especially since his treatment of world religions came after the
failure of Christianity to prevent the War, his heart was no longer
in it -- but he persisted.
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-05 20:32:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You
don't have cardinal directions without some external reference
point. What would be the external reference point for determining
which way east or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some
direction for north and south to be, given that the galaxy
rotates around its center, either clockwise or
counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming an
important power in at least part of the galaxy.
But he, like Arnold Toynbee, knew everything and predicted
everything.
When Asimov revealed somewhere that The Foundation was all
based on Toynbee, I had the impression that the fall of Toynbee's
influence after WWII was what was reflected in the relative failure
of the many extensions of the trilogy that followed.
Where is that somehere?
The sources I know about consider Toynbee a minor influence,
with much of the similarity deriving from Asinov's starting with Gibbon,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2021-05-06 01:04:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't care what_word_ you use for the cardinal
directions. You don't have cardinal directions without some
external reference point. What would be the external
reference point for determining which way east or west was?
(Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its
center, either clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
Galactic longitude is measured from Terminus.
Was _that_ laid down by Hari Seldon, too?
No, that came well after his death, when Terminus was becoming
an important power in at least part of the galaxy.
But he, like Arnold Toynbee, knew everything and predicted
everything.
When Asimov revealed somewhere that The Foundation was all based on
Toynbee, I had the impression that the fall of Toynbee's influence
after WWII was what was reflected in the relative failure of the
many extensions of the trilogy that followed.
Where is that somehere? The sources I know about consider Toynbee a
minor influence, with much of the similarity deriving from Asinov's
starting with Gibbon,
Asimov himself has said that his initial inspiration was based on Gibbon.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-04 20:56:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
You still haven't got the point.
You cannot -determine- what east or west is.
You have to make a decision about it,
based on some convention, [1]

Jan

[1] You have been told several time already, by different people,
what the standard -convention- is.
Move far out, perpendicular to the plane of the galaxy.
If you see it rotating counter-clockwise you are in the direction
of the North Galactic pole.
Next return to the plane near Sol, stand still, wrt to the universe,
with your head up, direction North,
and with your back to the flow of stars.
You will be looking east,
the centre of the Galaxy will be to your left.
(echos of Mr. Buys Ballot)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-05 13:31:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
You still haven't got the point.
You cannot -determine- what east or west is.
You have to make a decision about it,
based on some convention, [1]
Which is exactly what I said.
Post by J. J. Lodder
[1] You have been told several time already, by different people,
what the standard -convention- is.
Move far out, perpendicular to the plane of the galaxy.
In which direction?
Post by J. J. Lodder
If you see it rotating counter-clockwise you are in the direction
of the North Galactic pole.
Next return to the plane near Sol, stand still, wrt to the universe,
with your head up, direction North,
and with your back to the flow of stars.
You will be looking east,
That depends _entirely_ on which way you moved from the center
of the galaxy.
Post by J. J. Lodder
the centre of the Galaxy will be to your left.
(echos of Mr. Buys Ballot)
Like we're supposed to know some obscure Dutchy reference.

Guess what. There's no air pressure and wind in Outer Space.
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-05 20:32:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[-]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point. What
would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and
south to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either
clockwise or counterclockwise.)'
You still haven't got the point.
You cannot -determine- what east or west is.
You have to make a decision about it,
based on some convention, [1]
Which is exactly what I said.
You have strange ideas of 'exactly'.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
[1] You have been told several time already, by different people,
what the standard -convention- is.
Move far out, perpendicular to the plane of the galaxy.
In which direction?
Any.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
If you see it rotating counter-clockwise you are in the direction
of the North Galactic pole.
Next return to the plane near Sol, stand still, wrt to the universe,
with your head up, direction North,
and with your back to the flow of stars.
You will be looking east,
That depends _entirely_ on which way you moved from the center
of the galaxy.
No, read again.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
the centre of the Galaxy will be to your left.
(echos of Mr. Buys Ballot)
Like we're supposed to know some obscure Dutchy reference.
Wikipedia does, in almost all languages.
Ferrel didn't make it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Guess what. There's no air pressure and wind in Outer Space.
Yes, and so what?

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-04 20:56:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point.
That's where you are wrong.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and south
to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either clockwise
or counterclockwise.)'
No external reference is needed, just a convention.
A blob of matter, such as the earth, a galaxy, has a centre of mass,
a rest frame, and an angular momentum vector, hence poles.
You do need a convention to decide which pole is 'north'.
Once you have adopted that convention
it follows which --directions- are 'east' and west.
If, in addition, you want hemispheres you need another convention
for where the reference point, hence the meridian, should be.

It is all intrinsic and conventional,
no external reference is needed.

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2021-05-04 21:29:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point.
That's where you are wrong.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and south
to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either clockwise
or counterclockwise.)'
No external reference is needed, just a convention.
A blob of matter, such as the earth, a galaxy, has a centre of mass,
a rest frame, and an angular momentum vector, hence poles.
You do need a convention to decide which pole is 'north'.
...

The convention is obvious for those of us who live on Earth. The north
pole is the one such that, if you look at the galaxy from beyond it, you see
the galaxy rotating counterclockwise.

(For some here: The angular-momentum vector, as conventionally
defined on Earth, points north.)

One reason the convention is obvious is that it of the two choices for
galactic north, it's the one closer to our north--about 60 degrees off,
according to

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/there-planes-angles_no-earth-09oct2016-jpg.107279/

I agree with the part I snipped.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2021-05-05 09:55:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the
unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the
Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point.
That's where you are wrong.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and south
to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either clockwise
or counterclockwise.)'
No external reference is needed, just a convention.
A blob of matter, such as the earth, a galaxy, has a centre of mass,
a rest frame, and an angular momentum vector, hence poles.
You do need a convention to decide which pole is 'north'.
...
The convention is obvious for those of us who live on Earth. The north
pole is the one such that, if you look at the galaxy from beyond it, you see
the galaxy rotating counterclockwise.
(For some here: The angular-momentum vector, as conventionally
defined on Earth, points north.)
One reason the convention is obvious is that it of the two choices for
galactic north, it's the one closer to our north--about 60 degrees off,
according to
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/there-planes-angles_no-earth-09oct20
16-jpg.107279/

Purely by chance, I would guess.
Those clouds in which stars form seem to be rather turbulent,
so the suns spin could point anywhere, wrt the galaxy.

I don't know whether the north/counter-clockwise convention
is also applied to other stars,
supposing it to be measurable,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2021-05-05 14:04:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the
unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the
Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that
giving the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
I don't care what _word_ you use for the cardinal directions. You don't
have cardinal directions without some external reference point.
That's where you are wrong.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What would be the external reference point for determining which way east
or west was? (Assuming you'd settled on some direction for north and south
to be, given that the galaxy rotates around its center, either clockwise
or counterclockwise.)'
No external reference is needed, just a convention.
A blob of matter, such as the earth, a galaxy, has a centre of mass,
a rest frame, and an angular momentum vector, hence poles.
You do need a convention to decide which pole is 'north'.
...
The convention is obvious for those of us who live on Earth. The north
pole is the one such that, if you look at the galaxy from beyond it, you see
the galaxy rotating counterclockwise.
OK, you'd said that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(For some here: The angular-momentum vector, as conventionally
defined on Earth, points north.)
One reason the convention is obvious is that it of the two choices for
galactic north, it's the one closer to our north--about 60 degrees off,
according to
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/there-planes-angles_no-earth-09oct20
16-jpg.107279/
Purely by chance, I would guess.
Those clouds in which stars form seem to be rather turbulent,
so the suns spin could point anywhere, wrt the galaxy.
I didn't realize they were so turbulent. Here's a study on a small sample
(but as big as the authors could make it) of binary stars that found no
statistically significant correlation:

https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2015/02/aa23056-13/aa23056-13.html

Personally I wouldn't say an 18% false-alarm probability meant that the
effect completely vanished, though of course it rules out a definite
statement that there is an effect.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know whether the north/counter-clockwise convention
is also applied to other stars,
supposing it to be measurable,
I don't know whether there's ever been any non-fictional reason to refer to
north for any other star system.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2021-05-03 15:15:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable
end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail
might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think that giving
the area a posh name will increase property values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis, resulting in an
unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
[goalpost move ignored] And how would you derive
what is north or west rather than south or east
from the fact that the earth rotates,
except by convention?
The only thing that's conventional is the names. However, "western
spiral arm" would need another convention, and a rather silly one.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2021-05-03 12:37:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Post by CDB
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World.
Solar System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the
unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the
Galaxy", some of your mail might go astray.
Isn't it called Orion-Cygnus arm now?
That'll be the estate agents (real estate people) who think
that giving the area a posh name will increase property
values.
Seems a bit more specific than "western." How would one determine
compass directions for a galaxy?
By convention of course, just like on earth,
Uh, no. It is not "convention" that Earth rotates on an axis,
resulting in an unmistakable celestial phenomenon every morning.
The galaxy rotates too, in the same direction as the earth and most of
the solar system (unless I am mistaken, as is quite possible). Even
without your celestial phenomenon, that rotation would give the
convention enough to work with.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Even any who happen to live north of the Arctic Circle are aware of
daytime and nighttime.
Last time I visited, we had a whole hour of night-time.
CDB
2021-05-02 12:17:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Also, I don't know where you live.
Ottawa, Eastern Ontario, Canada, North America, World. Solar
System, Galaxy, Universe.
Having omitted "in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end
of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy", some of your mail might go
astray.
It was probably in Fin^W Golgafrinchan anyway.
Quinn C
2021-04-30 21:09:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
If you call me "Winn", I'll tell you "it's actually Quinn". If
you continue calling me "Winn", I'll feel disrespected/think
you're a dick.
If you call me "Mr.", I'll tell you "it's actually Mx.". If you
continue calling me "Mr.", I'll feel disrespected/think you're a
dick.
Do you ever think there might be some reason, besides being a
"dick" (sexism noted), for lacking the respect for you that you
feel you deserve? After all, you can't bear children.
I'm genuinely surprised that you would bring that up. On a personal
level, that is always possible, of course, but societally, I don't
think this is a major factor.
This thread is now too long to follow easily.
I managed to straighten out my answer to the main point by letting it
lie for a day, but then it sprouted branches. So yes, there was too much
in that one post.
Post by CDB
The remark that surprises
you came after, and was related to, my contention that automatic respect
for women (or females of some other species) is derived from their
innate potential as producers of the next generation.
Post by Quinn C
I believe one of the, maybe the main driver of patriarchy was to
bring reproduction, the one thing they can't (biologically) do alone,
under the control of men. We're not quite over that system yet, and
societally, men still do get more automatic respect than women of a
similar standing (class, education).
The respect men get is not automatic. Those who earn it get it; those
who do not earn it do not.
Fair enough. Then so: Women have to work harder to earn the same respect
as men, outside of the sphere of reproduction and domesticity.

What I was thinking of when saying "automatic" is the respect you get
initially based on a societal role - as a judge or a professor etc.,
although you may lose it if it turns out you're bad at your job, or
generally not very bright or mature. Women still often start out with
less of that implicit respect just for being women.
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
We might be using slightly different meanings of "respect" here.
Yours may carry a tinge of adoration, which OTOH in patriarchy is
used to make women believe they're valued by being locked away. I'm
looking for "basic respect" as an equal fellow human, born as perfect
as every one of us.
That adoration (a minstering angel thou) was cultural, a Victorian
convention that went with a limited and protected status for the Weaker
Sex.
Possible. But that combination of protection and limited freedom is much
much older.
Post by CDB
Now that feminists claim the right to take the risks (or pretend
to) that used to be assigned to men, we'll see how long that evolved
general respect holds out against the new equality.
[...]
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Of course that's also based on my worldview that our brains have
freed us from the slavery of genetic programming, and we're not
"essentially still cave(wo)men".
It does seem to be a common notion that our species has somehow freed
itself from the influence of natural selection. IMO that stems from the
same kind of monkey arrogance that used to let us call the other animals
"animals" and ourselves something better.
It can be a fact even if not linked to a value judgment.

To me, the fact that people die in hunger strikes and choose celibacy is
enough evidence that we are capable of overriding our natural urges.
Post by CDB
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Or are you so old and masc that even just saying "I feel"
already sets you off? I provided an alternative version above.
They mean pretty much the same to me.
I am pretty old (your ageist insult and your disparaging use of
"masculine" are noted)
I'm aware that in generations before mine, almost all men were
brought up to despise "feelings", so it's a normal state of affairs
unless someone has worked on themself in that area - thus making them
less "masc". I regularly meet people who've done that and think it's
a worthwhile endeavor.
My generation came before yours, if only slightly, and I can tell you
that IME that is nonsense. We were brought up not to whine about our
feelings.
And then a new generation redefined the same behavior (at least parts of
it) as "expressing our feelings", and you have a misunderstanding on
your hands.

I know how little feelings of any kind I observed in my father, and that
many other men his age were similar. Of course it's never all of them,
and I may have had bad luck, but I heard from many men of my generation
"I want a closer relationship with my children, and show them love" (in
the form of expressing feelings, rather than by providing money).

Besides, that men's mental health is less good because they suppress
their feelings/aren't as aware of their feelings/are less likely to seek
counsel from friends or professionals is pretty much a platitude in
psychology, and the higher rates of alcoholism and suicide in men are
part of the evidence. It's not over.
Post by CDB
Your basic belief is clearly that others had better do as you say if
they want the yammering to stop.
Essentially, but I still don't think you get it,

When you're standing on my foot, I won't stop "yammering" until you lift
your foot from mine.

My point is not that I want to control you. My point is not that I'm
better than you because I'm not standing on your foot. All those things
aren't really in the forefront of my mind while my foot hurts.

I'm at a point where close to half of everything in this group is
automatically hidden from me, to reduce the risk of getting stepped on.
Much more, and this group won't be worth the trouble.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2021-04-30 22:26:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:09:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
Let me take a wild guess. Is it a rare thing because no one else
discusses their gender or expresses any gender confusion?
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Quinn C
2021-05-01 14:06:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:09:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
Let me take a wild guess. Is it a rare thing because no one else
discusses their gender or expresses any gender confusion?
Just days ago, somebody surmised that bebercito was a woman. bebercito
corrected that, and that was the end of it. I don't expect anybody to
insist on "she" regardless.

I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-01 14:35:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
Sorry, but "gender, or lack thereof" is confusing.
Quinn C
2021-05-01 16:46:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
Sorry, but "gender, or lack thereof" is confusing.
I feel that's not my fault - in a world where "gender" is an obligatory
slot to be filled sometimes, "none" has to be a possible value for that
slot. Like the middle name NMI.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-01 18:30:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
Sorry, but "gender, or lack thereof" is confusing.
I feel that's not my fault - in a world where "gender" is an obligatory
slot to be filled sometimes, "none" has to be a possible value for that
slot. Like the middle name NMI.
That's not a "gender" question, that's a language question. Given an
(ever-expanding) list of alternatives, "none" is not one of them.

It's not English's fault that computers used to be so stupid that a
box couldn't be left blank when there was nothing to put in it.
Quinn C
2021-05-01 23:53:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
Sorry, but "gender, or lack thereof" is confusing.
I feel that's not my fault - in a world where "gender" is an obligatory
slot to be filled sometimes, "none" has to be a possible value for that
slot. Like the middle name NMI.
That's not a "gender" question, that's a language question. Given an
(ever-expanding) list of alternatives, "none" is not one of them.
There are other wordings, like "agender", but that still means "none"
and isn't actually "a gender". It's like writing "atheist" under
religion. Whoops, talking to the wrong person.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's not English's fault that computers used to be so stupid that a
box couldn't be left blank when there was nothing to put in it.
The issue started long before computers. You can leave a field blank on
paper, but the government might not accept it.

There are now four possible entries for sex on a German birth
certificate: male, female, "diverse" and no entry, but I think it's
still mainly a decision made by doctors.
--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Tony Cooper
2021-05-01 15:28:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 1 May 2021 10:06:38 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:09:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
Let me take a wild guess. Is it a rare thing because no one else
discusses their gender or expresses any gender confusion?
Just days ago, somebody surmised that bebercito was a woman. bebercito
corrected that, and that was the end of it. I don't expect anybody to
insist on "she" regardless.
That was not a gender issue, though. It was an issue regarding a
guess about the Barbercito's sex based solely on the name of the
poster.

It is hardly a gender issue when the sex of a poster cannot be
determined by the name used to post. There is no "gender issue" over,
say, the poster "soup" because that name is not associated with either
sex.

Closer was PTD's claim that "Pamela" is male based on Pamela's writing
style.
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
A "preconception" is a something based a preconceived idea based on a
prejudice of some sort. My conceptions are based on what you have
written here. You have, at one time, discussed your gender confusion
and presented dozens of monologs on the fluidity of your gender
recognition status.

While you say you are very clear about this, how clear it is depends
on how closely one follows your current revelations. Even the word
"finally" above indicates that this is not something clear to readers
even though you think it's clear to you. It's today's version.

As far as "listening" to you, in this forum as well as in daily
personal interaction with people, people listen to what the speaker
has to say that is of interest to the listener. When the speaker
goes into overload on a subject - as you do - you can hardly blame the
listener for not following a continuously changing self-description
that goes into far more personal details than are of interest to
anyone else.

Your presentation of yourself as the victim does get old.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-01 15:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 1 May 2021 10:06:38 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Just days ago, somebody surmised that bebercito was a woman. bebercito
corrected that, and that was the end of it. I don't expect anybody to
insist on "she" regardless.
That was not a gender issue, though. It was an issue regarding a
guess about the Barbercito's sex based solely on the name of the
poster.
I don't recall such a thing. -o marks masculine gender in the better-
known Romance languages.
Post by Tony Cooper
It is hardly a gender issue when the sex of a poster cannot be
determined by the name used to post. There is no "gender issue" over,
say, the poster "soup" because that name is not associated with either
sex.
Closer was PTD's claim that "Pamela" is male based on Pamela's writing
style.
That is not remotely what I "claimed." "Pamela" acknowledged similarity
to another troll, not found in this newsgroup, who goes by "Rachel," who
apparently is/was in fact a man posting under a woman's name, according
to what was said here on the issue. (Or need I say "a male posting under
an assigned female name?")
Madhu
2021-05-02 12:34:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That is not remotely what I "claimed." "Pamela" acknowledged
similarity to another troll, not found in this newsgroup, who goes by
"Rachel," who apparently is/was in fact a man posting under a woman's
name, according to what was said here on the issue. (Or need I say "a
male posting under an assigned female name?")
the one on the dylan group?

btw some people are still trying to troll out the col. out of his
silence - it looks like they think he stopped posting because he was
doxxed. 3-4 posting accounts have gone silent.

i thing one reason for posters going silent is that the believe their
anonymity has been blown
Quinn C
2021-05-01 16:46:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 1 May 2021 10:06:38 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:09:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
I don't know how you are treated in real life. In this group, no one
would know even whether you are a dog or not, if you didn't bring your
feelings up at every turn.
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
Let me take a wild guess. Is it a rare thing because no one else
discusses their gender or expresses any gender confusion?
Just days ago, somebody surmised that bebercito was a woman. bebercito
corrected that, and that was the end of it. I don't expect anybody to
insist on "she" regardless.
That was not a gender issue, though. It was an issue regarding a
guess about the Barbercito's sex based solely on the name of the
poster.
No, you're wrong. A person's sex is nobody's business in a public forum.
We only need to know their gender, so we can choose certain words when
talking about them.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
I am finally very clear about my gender, or lack thereof. No confusion
there, or I wouldn't be so adamant. Your wrong preconception is the kind
of thing that gets in the way of simply listening to what I say.
A "preconception" is a something based a preconceived idea based on a
prejudice of some sort. My conceptions are based on what you have
written here. You have, at one time, discussed your gender confusion
and presented dozens of monologs on the fluidity of your gender
recognition status.
I don't think so. I think you, like some other people I've met, think
it's "gender confusion" when gender doesn't align with sex. While I may
have been "fluid" in what words I use to describe my gender, the gender
itself hasn't fluctuated at all since I came out to this group.

Maybe you're confused by some discussions of gender presentation (like
clothes and hair), or of people's reactions to me (some saying Sir, some
Madam). Those are not gender.
Post by Tony Cooper
While you say you are very clear about this, how clear it is depends
on how closely one follows your current revelations. Even the word
"finally" above indicates that this is not something clear to readers
even though you think it's clear to you. It's today's version.
"Finally" is to indicate that I was somewhat confused for 50 years that
people would put me in a category that never seemed to fit. Strangely,
nobody ever called me "confused" then.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-01 18:28:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
No, you're wrong. A person's sex is nobody's business in a public forum.
We only need to know their gender, so we can choose certain words when
talking about them.
It's not nice to talk about people one knows in a public forum.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-05-01 14:34:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
And yet, it's rare that anyone's proclaimed gender is challenged in this
group - except in my case. So why should anyone else have feelings in
this area?
No one (else) "proclaims gender (well, I suppose Cat does). Unless
you're using "proclaim" in a highly idiosyncratic way.
Post by Quinn C
I know how little feelings of any kind I observed in my father, and that
many other men his age were similar. Of course it's never all of them,
Special case: they lived through, or were immediately impacted by the
just-past, Nazi era.
Post by Quinn C
and I may have had bad luck, but I heard from many men of my generation
"I want a closer relationship with my children, and show them love" (in
the form of expressing feelings, rather than by providing money).
Same here from the children of the "gray flannel suit" generation --
which, however, was a stereotype based on a tiny sample of USans,
upper-middle-class (sub)urbanites.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-26 16:15:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
Whether you care to recognize it or not, that is a small world.
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
What does it matter? Unless someone is paying attention to which
bathroom you go into, or whether you're better at sports than the
others on your team or their opponents (see Connecticut case that
was just dismissed), why would they even know, unless you chose
to make an issue of it?
Quinn C
2021-04-26 18:28:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Sure, people use "gender" as a politer word for sex. Many people would
hesitate to "celebrate their baby's sex" in a "sex reveal party". But
given that "gender" is the usual word for gender identity now,
IN YOUR SPECIAL, AND RATHER SMALL, COMMUNITY.
In the world of those who understand that biological sex doesn't
determine gender identity.
Whether you care to recognize it or not, that is a small world.
I'm hopeful that civil rights aren't out of fashion yet.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
What does it matter? Unless someone is paying attention to which
bathroom you go into, or whether you're better at sports than the
others on your team or their opponents (see Connecticut case that
was just dismissed), why would they even know, unless you chose
to make an issue of it?
I think you'd make an issue of it too if you were misgendered
repeatedly, Missy.

I'm not talking about touch-and-go interactions with randos, but about
people I'm going to have ongoing concerns with. I only "make it an
issue" when it happens after I've told them what the right pronouns are.
That's not a foregone conclusion at all, but something I may want to
steel myself for when I register low awareness.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-26 19:06:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
What does it matter? Unless someone is paying attention to which
bathroom you go into, or whether you're better at sports than the
others on your team or their opponents (see Connecticut case that
was just dismissed), why would they even know, unless you chose
to make an issue of it?
I think you'd make an issue of it too if you were misgendered
repeatedly, Missy.
Not sure what that would be. Coaches calling team members "ladies"
when they underperform isn't done any more.
Post by Quinn C
I'm not talking about touch-and-go interactions with randos, but about
people I'm going to have ongoing concerns with. I only "make it an
issue" when it happens after I've told them what the right pronouns are.
That's not a foregone conclusion at all, but something I may want to
steel myself for when I register low awareness.
Calling them "the right pronouns" makes it a moral issue. Standardized
forms these days request people's "preferred pronouns."

But if you're going to "have ongoing concerns with" some people,
maybe they do care about "gender identity" and "misgendering."
If they go out of their way to be offensive, maybe you don't want
to be "ongoing" with them.
Quinn C
2021-04-26 23:27:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
If you use "gender" for sex, I know that you expect my gender identity
to conform wo my biological attributes, and I know that I have to be
prepared to be misgendered and otherwise disrespected.
What does it matter? Unless someone is paying attention to which
bathroom you go into, or whether you're better at sports than the
others on your team or their opponents (see Connecticut case that
was just dismissed), why would they even know, unless you chose
to make an issue of it?
I think you'd make an issue of it too if you were misgendered
repeatedly, Missy.
Not sure what that would be. Coaches calling team members "ladies"
when they underperform isn't done any more.
That is the crux: cis people have enormous difficulties imagining that
situation. It just won't happen that someone at a conference would
continue calling you "Ms. Daniels", but that's what happens to trans
people.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I'm not talking about touch-and-go interactions with randos, but about
people I'm going to have ongoing concerns with. I only "make it an
issue" when it happens after I've told them what the right pronouns are.
That's not a foregone conclusion at all, but something I may want to
steel myself for when I register low awareness.
Calling them "the right pronouns" makes it a moral issue.
It was just supposed to mean "correct".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Standardized forms these days request people's "preferred pronouns."
People weren't happy that "preferred" was sometimes interpreted as a
mere preference, with other options also being ok, so now "preferred" is
advised against. The standard wording is "My pronouns are ...", as in my
.sig already for some time.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But if you're going to "have ongoing concerns with" some people,
maybe they do care about "gender identity" and "misgendering."
If they go out of their way to be offensive, maybe you don't want
to be "ongoing" with them.
That will be my conclusion, in some cases. But it's not always an
option, certainly as long as I have to make money by working.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
J. J. Lodder
2021-04-26 10:24:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:01:06 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
Doesn't it? At that point in time? The ultasound reveal is of a
fetus.
And that image may be hard to interpret in some cases.
Mother nature has her problems too: in about 1% of the births
the surgeon has to 'correct' some 'abnormality'.
Loaded terms, these days, and difficult decisions,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-25 19:57:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
But I guess you're one of those people, too.
There is no way to determine gender in your sense before the
individual has achieved (self-)consciousness, which seems to
come with language competence at the age of 24+ months or
so. What's the earliest known age of a child knowing they weren't
what they had been "assigned at birth," to quote that PREP commercial?
Quinn C
2021-04-25 21:41:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
But I guess you're one of those people, too.
There is no way to determine gender in your sense before the
individual has achieved (self-)consciousness, which seems to
come with language competence at the age of 24+ months or
so. What's the earliest known age of a child knowing they weren't
what they had been "assigned at birth," to quote that PREP commercial?
You still need to refer to a commercial to use a well established
phrase?

Anyway, as I wrote elsewhere, gender identity usually starts around the
age of 3. It could go the unexpected way fro the start, or at any time
later, or move around and not stabilize for a while.

So it could be a good idea to refer to all small humans under 3 as
"they" or something else neutral, until they start noticing the "he" and
"she" differences and you can ask for their preference.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-26 16:12:52 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
But I guess you're one of those people, too.
There is no way to determine gender in your sense before the
individual has achieved (self-)consciousness, which seems to
come with language competence at the age of 24+ months or
so. What's the earliest known age of a child knowing they weren't
what they had been "assigned at birth," to quote that PREP commercial?
You still need to refer to a commercial to use a well established
phrase?
well-established IN YOUR VERY LIMITED COMMUNITY.

You never did answer the question I asked. Has the drug been tested
on grown women (whatever assortment of prefixes you want to put
on them) or not?
Post by Quinn C
Anyway, as I wrote elsewhere, gender identity usually starts around the
age of 3. It could go the unexpected way fro the start, or at any time
later, or move around and not stabilize for a while.
So it could be a good idea to refer to all small humans under 3 as
"they" or something else neutral, until they start noticing the "he" and
"she" differences and you can ask for their preference.
What about the apparent fact that however gender-neutral enlightened
parents happen to be in the choice of toys provided to offspring, the
boys gravitate toward the more aggressive ones and the girls toward
the more domestic ones?
Quinn C
2021-04-26 18:20:14 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
How about "intracourse". It's the new sex for people who aren't
members of a gender.
I only heard of "Gender Reveal Parties" because they seem to involve
fireworks which destroy an entire neighbourhood, but I imagine the
ungendered would decline an invitation to these events.
We call them "genital reveal parties", because that's what they are -
proclaiming what genitals your baby has.
Who is "we"?
Difficulty reading context?
We the ungendered.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What, other than the genitalia, can you discern along those lines from
an ultrasound? Or, if you want to be invasive, an amnio?
The problem is that those people think genitalia indicate gender.
But I guess you're one of those people, too.
There is no way to determine gender in your sense before the
individual has achieved (self-)consciousness, which seems to
come with language competence at the age of 24+ months or
so. What's the earliest known age of a child knowing they weren't
what they had been "assigned at birth," to quote that PREP commercial?
You still need to refer to a commercial to use a well established
phrase?
well-established IN YOUR VERY LIMITED COMMUNITY.
You never did answer the question I asked. Has the drug been tested
on grown women (whatever assortment of prefixes you want to put
on them) or not?
I didn't answer yet that I don't know? Well, if so, there you are. It
won't make a big difference.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Anyway, as I wrote elsewhere, gender identity usually starts around the
age of 3. It could go the unexpected way fro the start, or at any time
later, or move around and not stabilize for a while.
So it could be a good idea to refer to all small humans under 3 as
"they" or something else neutral, until they start noticing the "he" and
"she" differences and you can ask for their preference.
What about the apparent fact that however gender-neutral enlightened
parents happen to be in the choice of toys provided to offspring, the
boys gravitate toward the more aggressive ones and the girls toward
the more domestic ones?
I feel quite confident saying that this isn't an established fact yet.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
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