Discussion:
Even Mongols might not have been as cruel as Trump - what does it say about those who voted for him?
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s***@gmail.com
2019-11-03 16:10:06 UTC
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Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they did it through stooges and maintained deniability).

https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty university) in front of our eyes.
Spains Harden
2019-11-03 16:26:59 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-03 16:47:30 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?

For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
--
athel
Spains Harden
2019-11-03 16:51:49 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your obsession with my mother is bit disturbing Athel.

Genghis Khan notwithstanding "Mongol"has changed its meaning in BrE.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-03 17:05:00 UTC
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Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your obsession with my mother is bit disturbing Athel.
Considering the frequency with which you told us about her when you
were called 'Arrison 'Ill I don't think I'm the one with an obsession.
In my normal life I never think about your mother.
Post by Spains Harden
Genghis Khan notwithstanding "Mongol"has changed its meaning in BrE.
Bollocks. It's no longer used by informed people in British English for
trisomics, and insofar as it's used at all it means Mongols (though
nowadays we may be more inclined to say Mongolians).
--
athel
Spains Harden
2019-11-03 17:24:06 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your obsession with my mother is bit disturbing Athel.
Considering the frequency with which you told us about her when you
were called 'Arrison 'Ill I don't think I'm the one with an obsession.
In my normal life I never think about your mother.
Post by Spains Harden
Genghis Khan notwithstanding "Mongol"has changed its meaning in BrE.
Bollocks. It's no longer used by informed people in British English for
trisomics, and insofar as it's used at all it means Mongols (though
nowadays we may be more inclined to say Mongolians).
If you say so. We have "Tartars" and "Arabs" and so on. The only
racial group I have never heard despised are the Cossacks.

America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
Tony Cooper
2019-11-03 19:02:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:24:06 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
I don't think I've ever seen - or want to see in the future - the
characters in "The Grapes of Wrath" described as "refugees". Migrating
from Oklahoma to California was a difficult journey, but they were not
refugees.

Also, I'm not comfortable with a work of fiction "documenting"
something. It may be based on real-life events, but fiction is not a
documentary.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
David Kleinecke
2019-11-03 19:46:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:24:06 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
I don't think I've ever seen - or want to see in the future - the
characters in "The Grapes of Wrath" described as "refugees". Migrating
from Oklahoma to California was a difficult journey, but they were not
refugees.
Also, I'm not comfortable with a work of fiction "documenting"
something. It may be based on real-life events, but fiction is not a
documentary.
Thereby creating a problem. Documentary history is usually quite dull
and most people remember only more colorful fictions. Or perhaps a
picture - I think more people think of the Okies in terms of some
Dorothea Lang pictures than even as Grapes of Wrath.

Like the American Revolution is a picture of Washington Crossing the
Delaware. And etc.

PS: The camp where Dorothea Lang worked was about five miles up
the road from our farm.
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-03 20:26:19 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:24:06 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
I don't think I've ever seen - or want to see in the future - the
characters in "The Grapes of Wrath" described as "refugees". Migrating
from Oklahoma to California was a difficult journey, but they were not
refugees.
Also, I'm not comfortable with a work of fiction "documenting"
something. It may be based on real-life events, but fiction is not a
documentary.
Thereby creating a problem. Documentary history is usually quite dull
and most people remember only more colorful fictions. Or perhaps a
picture - I think more people think of the Okies in terms of some
Dorothea Lang pictures than even as Grapes of Wrath.
Like the American Revolution is a picture of Washington Crossing the
Delaware. And etc.
PS: The camp where Dorothea Lang worked was about five miles up
the road from our farm.
Was this in Kansas? And did she still have that little cairn terrier?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
David Kleinecke
2019-11-03 22:32:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 11:46:21 -0800 (PST), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:24:06 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
I don't think I've ever seen - or want to see in the future - the
characters in "The Grapes of Wrath" described as "refugees". Migrating
from Oklahoma to California was a difficult journey, but they were not
refugees.
Also, I'm not comfortable with a work of fiction "documenting"
something. It may be based on real-life events, but fiction is not a
documentary.
Thereby creating a problem. Documentary history is usually quite dull
and most people remember only more colorful fictions.
Ken Burns has put together a number of documentaries that are far from
dull. His documentary on "The Dust Bowl", a ecological disaster that
was the reason for the exodus that was the plot of "The Grapes of
Wrath", is anything but dull.
"The Dust Bowl" was, IMO, quite good and interesting - not what I would
call dull but ... This said we could run a test where we ask people what
they think of if we say "Dust Bowl". My guess is that no one will name
the documentary.
Peter Young
2019-11-03 22:56:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-internat
ional-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your obsession with my mother is bit disturbing Athel.
Considering the frequency with which you told us about her when you
were called 'Arrison 'Ill I don't think I'm the one with an obsession.
In my normal life I never think about your mother.
Post by Spains Harden
Genghis Khan notwithstanding "Mongol"has changed its meaning in BrE.
Bollocks. It's no longer used by informed people in British English for
trisomics, and insofar as it's used at all it means Mongols (though
nowadays we may be more inclined to say Mongolians).
If you say so. We have "Tartars" and "Arabs" and so on. The only
racial group I have never heard despised are the Cossacks.
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-03 23:10:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-internat
ional-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your obsession with my mother is bit disturbing Athel.
Considering the frequency with which you told us about her when you
were called 'Arrison 'Ill I don't think I'm the one with an obsession.
In my normal life I never think about your mother.
Post by Spains Harden
Genghis Khan notwithstanding "Mongol"has changed its meaning in BrE.
Bollocks. It's no longer used by informed people in British English for
trisomics, and insofar as it's used at all it means Mongols (though
nowadays we may be more inclined to say Mongolians).
If you say so. We have "Tartars" and "Arabs" and so on. The only
racial group I have never heard despised are the Cossacks.
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known Renaissance
Woman, Polly Math.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
RH Draney
2019-11-03 23:58:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known Renaissance
Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-04 00:08:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-04 01:36:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.

bill
occam
2019-11-04 07:00:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
Lewis
2019-11-04 07:32:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
If I ever meet a Polly, I will try to remember these.
--
Everything that was magical was just a way of describing the world in
words it couldn't ignore.
Quinn C
2019-11-05 00:15:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
If I ever meet a Polly, I will try to remember these.
But try not to come off as a Polly phony.
--
... she didn't exactly approve of the military. She didn't
exactly disapprove, either; she just made it plain that she
thought there were better things for intelligent human beings
to do with their lives. -- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory
John Dunlop
2019-11-05 13:44:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Lewis
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
If I ever meet a Polly, I will try to remember these.
Haven't you met AUE regular Polly See Me?
--
John
Janet
2019-11-04 10:13:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples' husbands.

Janet
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-04 10:30:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples' husbands.
I knew a very thin organic chemist called Polly Proper Lean.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
occam
2019-11-04 13:53:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
   I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples' husbands.
I knew a very thin organic chemist called Polly Proper Lean.
Did she not have a sister, Polly Ethel Lean?
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-04 14:24:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
   I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples' husbands.
I knew a very thin organic chemist called Polly Proper Lean.
Did she not have a sister, Polly Ethel Lean?
Indeed. And she had an even thinner (married) sister, Polly No Meal.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
John Varela
2019-11-05 01:43:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:24:19 UTC, Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in
society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
   I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples' husbands.
I knew a very thin organic chemist called Polly Proper Lean.
Did she not have a sister, Polly Ethel Lean?
Indeed. And she had an even thinner (married) sister, Polly No Meal.
They had a one-eyed cousin named Polly Phemus.
--
John Varela
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-05 08:46:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 05 Nov 2019 01:43:42 GMT, "John Varela"
Post by John Varela
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:24:19 UTC, Richard Heathfield
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by occam
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group
and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The
Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding
green and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her
Polly Chromatic.
I knew a Polly who always dressed in synthetic materials. Poly Esther.
   I knew a Polly Gamous who collected other peoples'
husbands.
I knew a very thin organic chemist called Polly Proper Lean.
Did she not have a sister, Polly Ethel Lean?
Indeed. And she had an even thinner (married) sister, Polly No Meal.
They had a one-eyed cousin named Polly Phemus.
and the artistic tub-thumper, Polly Titian.


(I assume all present recall X-Ray Spex's Poly Styrene?

)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-04 20:09:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
What a shame they weren't red highlights.
She could have been Polly Titian.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-05 08:46:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
I have a friend named Polly who, in her 60s, started adding green
and purple highlights to her grey hair. I called her Polly Chromatic.
What a shame they weren't red highlights.
She could have been Polly Titian.
Pre-plagiarised! ISRA.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-04 12:07:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
I tried to ask Polly, but Polly Gon.
She went to put the kettle on.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Peter Moylan
2019-11-04 00:28:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
Put the polycephalon
We'll all have tea.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Paul Carmichael
2019-11-04 12:08:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Indeed... *except* when we're talking about that well-known
Renaissance Woman, Polly Math.
Doesn't the prefix "poly-" make it plural?...r
Put the polycephalon
We'll all have tea.
<mental note: read ahead>
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Peter Moylan
2019-11-03 23:24:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.

Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-11-04 00:51:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Spains Harden
2019-11-04 07:43:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
That doesn't help us Brits, because "bath" can be pronounced either
way. "Math" may not exist as a singular; but if it did, it could only
be enunciated one way.
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-04 08:40:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
Northern working-class bath or posh southern bath?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Katy Jennison
2019-11-04 09:13:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.

To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax. The vowel rhymes with
hot. Of course, that BrE o is another can of worms.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2019-11-04 11:48:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths
outgrabe'.
I've never been sure how to pronounce that line. Some people make
"raths" rhyme with "baths", while others make it rhyme with "baths".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Katy Jennison
2019-11-04 12:18:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths
outgrabe'.
I've never been sure how to pronounce that line. Some people make
"raths" rhyme with "baths", while others make it rhyme with "baths".
The OED gives both alternative pronunciations for the noun 'rath',
meaning (chiefly in Ireland) 'an enclosure of roughly circular form made
with a strong earthen wall, and originally serving as a fort and place
of residence; an earthen ring fort.' Rath from Sanskrit meaning a
bullock cart seems to be pronounced rut.

Alas, it gives no pronunciation for rath as in mome, saying only "c1855
‘L. Carroll’ Rectory Umbrella & Mischmasch (1932) 140 Rath, a species
of land turtle. Head erect: mouth like a shark: the fore legs curved
out so that the animal walked on its knees: smooth green body: lived on
swallows and oysters."

In my childhood, when it was recited not infrequently, rath was always
pronounced to rhyme with the church's pronunciation of Gath, the
Biblical city of the Philistines; but for all I know AmE pronounces that
Gah-th. Oh, all right, like math(s) and AmE wrath.
--
Katy Jennison
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-04 14:45:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths
outgrabe'.
I've never been sure how to pronounce that line. Some people make
"raths" rhyme with "baths", while others make it rhyme with "baths".
The OED gives both alternative pronunciations for the noun 'rath',
meaning (chiefly in Ireland) 'an enclosure of roughly circular form made
with a strong earthen wall, and originally serving as a fort and place
of residence; an earthen ring fort.'  Rath from Sanskrit meaning a
bullock cart seems to be pronounced rut.
Alas, it gives no pronunciation for rath as in mome, saying only "c1855
 ‘L. Carroll’ Rectory Umbrella & Mischmasch (1932) 140 Rath, a species
of   land turtle. Head erect: mouth like a shark: the fore legs curved
out so that the animal walked on its knees: smooth green body: lived on
swallows and oysters."
In my childhood, when it was recited not infrequently, rath was always
pronounced to rhyme with the church's pronunciation of Gath, the
Biblical city of the Philistines; but for all I know AmE pronounces that
Gah-th.
If it did, we would tell it not.

I was about to assure you that AmE "Gath" has the TRAP vowel, but I'm
not sure I've ever heard anyone say it.
Post by Katy Jennison
Oh, all right, like math(s) and AmE wrath.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-04 17:48:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
In my childhood, when it was recited not infrequently, rath was always
pronounced to rhyme with the church's pronunciation of Gath, the
Biblical city of the Philistines; but for all I know AmE pronounces that
Gah-th.
If it did, we would tell it not.
I was about to assure you that AmE "Gath" has the TRAP vowel, but I'm
not sure I've ever heard anyone say it.
Yes -- it's included in the regular Lectionary, so it comes around at
least once every year or three years (two schemata are available).
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Oh, all right, like math(s) and AmE wrath.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-05 17:02:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
In my childhood, when it was recited not infrequently, rath was always
pronounced to rhyme with the church's pronunciation of Gath, the
Biblical city of the Philistines; but for all I know AmE pronounces that
Gah-th.
If it did, we would tell it not.
I was about to assure you that AmE "Gath" has the TRAP vowel, but I'm
not sure I've ever heard anyone say it.
Yes -- it's included in the regular Lectionary, so it comes around at
least once every year or three years (two schemata are available).
...

Thanks.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-04 14:47:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes with
hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said? That's one I didn't know.
Post by Katy Jennison
Of course, that BrE o is another can of worms.
--
Jerry Friedman
Katy Jennison
2019-11-04 16:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half
as good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes
with hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said?  That's one I didn't know.
No, it's two different things. BrE 'wrath' rhymes with 'moth' and has
the same BrE vowel sound as 'hot', whereas BrE 'rath' rhymes with AmE
'wrath' and with 'math'.

(I seem to have done a good job of muddying the waters*! Perhaps we
should just re- start the thread ...)

*Until I looked it up a few hours ago, I didn't realise that Lewis
Carroll's 'rath' purported to be a turtle.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-04 17:54:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
No, it's two different things. BrE 'wrath' rhymes with 'moth' and has
the same BrE vowel sound as 'hot', whereas BrE 'rath' rhymes with AmE
'wrath' and with 'math'.
(I seem to have done a good job of muddying the waters*! Perhaps we
should just re- start the thread ...)
*Until I looked it up a few hours ago, I didn't realise that Lewis
Carroll's 'rath' purported to be a turtle.
Did it? In "Jabberwocky" for Humpty Dumpty it's "a sort of green pig."

"For example, following the poem, a "rath" is described by Humpty as "a
sort of green pig".[18] Carroll's notes for the original in Mischmasch
suggest a "rath" is "a species of Badger" that "lived chiefly on cheese"
and had smooth white hair, long hind legs, and short horns like a stag.[19]
The appendices to certain Looking Glass editions, however, state that the
creature is "a species of land turtle" that lived on swallows and oysters.
[19] Later critics added their own interpretations of the lexicon, often
without reference to Carroll's own contextual commentary."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabberwocky#Lexicon
RH Draney
2019-11-04 21:03:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
*Until I looked it up a few hours ago, I didn't realise that Lewis
Carroll's 'rath' purported to be a turtle.
Did it? In "Jabberwocky" for Humpty Dumpty it's "a sort of green pig."
"For example, following the poem, a "rath" is described by Humpty as "a
sort of green pig".[18] Carroll's notes for the original in Mischmasch
suggest a "rath" is "a species of Badger" that "lived chiefly on cheese"
and had smooth white hair, long hind legs, and short horns like a stag.[19]
The appendices to certain Looking Glass editions, however, state that the
creature is "a species of land turtle" that lived on swallows and oysters.
[19] Later critics added their own interpretations of the lexicon, often
without reference to Carroll's own contextual commentary."
I'm inclined toward the "pig" interpretation; WIWAL there was a brand of
canned ham called Rath, and it wouldn't take much imagination to suppose
that the original animal was green....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-04 21:10:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Katy Jennison
*Until I looked it up a few hours ago, I didn't realise that Lewis
Carroll's 'rath' purported to be a turtle.
Did it? In "Jabberwocky" for Humpty Dumpty it's "a sort of green pig."
"For example, following the poem, a "rath" is described by Humpty as "a
sort of green pig".[18] Carroll's notes for the original in Mischmasch
suggest a "rath" is "a species of Badger" that "lived chiefly on cheese"
and had smooth white hair, long hind legs, and short horns like a stag.[19]
The appendices to certain Looking Glass editions, however, state that the
creature is "a species of land turtle" that lived on swallows and oysters.
[19] Later critics added their own interpretations of the lexicon, often
without reference to Carroll's own contextual commentary."
I'm inclined toward the "pig" interpretation; WIWAL there was a brand of
canned ham called Rath, and it wouldn't take much imagination to suppose
that the original animal was green....r
The director of the Washington Square Music Festival (which presents
three free outdoor chamber-orchestra concerts each June) is Lutz Rath.
He occasionally conducts from the cello. I suspect he's Bavarian in
origin, because the Assyriologist Dietz Otto Edzard was from Munich and
his son is Lutz Edzard, the Semitist.
RH Draney
2019-11-04 23:26:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"For example, following the poem, a "rath" is described by Humpty as "a
sort of green pig".[18] Carroll's notes for the original in Mischmasch
suggest a "rath" is "a species of Badger" that "lived chiefly on cheese"
and had smooth white hair, long hind legs, and short horns like a stag.[19]
The appendices to certain Looking Glass editions, however, state that the
creature is "a species of land turtle" that lived on swallows and oysters.
[19] Later critics added their own interpretations of the lexicon, often
without reference to Carroll's own contextual commentary."
I'm inclined toward the "pig" interpretation; WIWAL there was a brand of
canned ham called Rath, and it wouldn't take much imagination to suppose
that the original animal was green....r
The director of the Washington Square Music Festival (which presents
three free outdoor chamber-orchestra concerts each June) is Lutz Rath.
He occasionally conducts from the cello. I suspect he's Bavarian in
origin, because the Assyriologist Dietz Otto Edzard was from Munich and
his son is Lutz Edzard, the Semitist.
And then there was the moment reported by Steve Allen (original "Tonight
Show" host and creator of "Meeting of Minds") when walking in Manhattan
and seeing a sign for Womrath's Bookshop: "the Womraths outgrabe"....

(I have something similar whenever I pass the shoe store Cole-Haan...I
keep wanting to add "Warm Heart")....r
Ken Blake
2019-11-04 23:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"For example, following the poem, a "rath" is described by Humpty as "a
sort of green pig".[18] Carroll's notes for the original in Mischmasch
suggest a "rath" is "a species of Badger" that "lived chiefly on cheese"
and had smooth white hair, long hind legs, and short horns like a stag.[19]
The appendices to certain Looking Glass editions, however, state that the
creature is "a species of land turtle" that lived on swallows and oysters.
[19] Later critics added their own interpretations of the lexicon, often
without reference to Carroll's own contextual commentary."
I'm inclined toward the "pig" interpretation; WIWAL there was a brand of
canned ham called Rath, and it wouldn't take much imagination to suppose
that the original animal was green....r
The director of the Washington Square Music Festival (which presents
three free outdoor chamber-orchestra concerts each June) is Lutz Rath.
He occasionally conducts from the cello. I suspect he's Bavarian in
origin, because the Assyriologist Dietz Otto Edzard was from Munich and
his son is Lutz Edzard, the Semitist.
And then there was the moment reported by Steve Allen (original "Tonight
Show" host and creator of "Meeting of Minds") when walking in Manhattan
and seeing a sign for Womrath's Bookshop: "the Womraths outgrabe"....
Womrath's is apparently long gone, but I used to frequent one. I had
completely forgotten the name until you just reminded me of it.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2019-11-05 00:43:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:25:16 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half
as good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes
with hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said?  That's one I didn't know.
No, it's two different things. BrE 'wrath' rhymes with 'moth' and has
the same BrE vowel sound as 'hot', whereas BrE 'rath' rhymes with AmE
'wrath' and with 'math'.
(I seem to have done a good job of muddying the waters*! Perhaps we
should just re- start the thread ...)
*Until I looked it up a few hours ago, I didn't realise that Lewis
Carroll's 'rath' purported to be a turtle.
Coincidently, I recently was reading Henley's "Invictus". One verse
is:

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

Would Henley (born in Gloucester, UK) have pronounced that rhyming
with "moth"?

Did Harry ever read the poem aloud, and how did he pronounce it?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-05 00:50:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 05/11/2019 00:43, Tony Cooper wrote:

<snip>
Post by Tony Cooper
Coincidently, I recently was reading Henley's "Invictus". One verse
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.
Would Henley (born in Gloucester, UK) have pronounced that rhyming
with "moth"?
Very possibly.

Although I wasn't born in Gloucester, UK, I moved there at such a young
age that I have no memory of any prior home; and I would certainly rhyme
"wrath" with "moth".
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-05 17:05:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:43:28 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
...
Post by Tony Cooper
Coincidently, I recently was reading Henley's "Invictus". One verse
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.
Have you read his poem "Madam Life's a Piece in Bloom"? It makes a
good companion to "Invictus", in my opinion.

http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/william_ernest_henley/poems/12729
Post by Tony Cooper
Would Henley (born in Gloucester, UK) have pronounced that rhyming
with "moth"?
Did Harry ever read the poem aloud, and how did he pronounce it?
Whatever the answer is, Henley pronounced so it would /stay/ pronounced.
--
Jerry Friedman
Rich Ulrich
2019-11-04 16:47:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:47:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes with
hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said? That's one I didn't know.
"Wroth" is a legitimate adjective, meaning angry.
Are people pronouncing "wrath" (anger) exactly
like "wroth"?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Of course, that BrE o is another can of worms.
--
Rich Ulrich
Katy Jennison
2019-11-04 17:37:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:47:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes with
hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said? That's one I didn't know.
"Wroth" is a legitimate adjective, meaning angry.
Are people pronouncing "wrath" (anger) exactly
like "wroth"?
Yes. (With BrE pronunciation of the o.)
--
Katy Jennison
Lewis
2019-11-04 19:03:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:47:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes with
hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said? That's one I didn't know.
"Wroth" is a legitimate adjective, meaning angry.
Are people pronouncing "wrath" (anger) exactly
like "wroth"?
Dunno, but I've never heard anyone say wroth, only read it in (old)
writings.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=wroth%2Cwrath&year_start=1600&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cwroth%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cwrath%3B%2Cc0>
--
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to
anger.
Ken Blake
2019-11-04 19:33:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:47:08 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:24:29 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of
Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
"Wrath" is pronounced in the US to rhyme with "bath".
In other words, the AmE is as in the (BrE) 'The mome raths outgrabe'.
To my ear the sentence (from Exodus, in the KJV, very familiar to my
generation of Brits) "And my wrath shall wax hot" doesn't sound half as
good if 'wrath' is pronounced to rhyme with wax.  The vowel rhymes with
hot.
So it doesn't rhyme with either "bath" or "bath", but with "moth", as
Peter M. said? That's one I didn't know.
"Wroth" is a legitimate adjective, meaning angry.
Are people pronouncing "wrath" (anger) exactly
like "wroth"?
Dunno, but I've never heard anyone say wroth, only read it in (old)
writings.
Since I'm a terrible typist, I sometimes write things like "My car is
wroth $10,000."
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2019-11-04 21:32:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Since I'm a terrible typist, I sometimes write things like "My car is
wroth $10,000."
S'OK...no one minds if you inflate the value of your car. Not a
terrible thing at all.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-11-04 21:12:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Rich Ulrich
"Wroth" is a legitimate adjective, meaning angry.
Are people pronouncing "wrath" (anger) exactly
like "wroth"?
Dunno, but I've never heard anyone say wroth, only read it in (old)
writings.
You've never seen the Marx Brothers movie "Horse Feathers"?



....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-04 06:23:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
So do I, more or less. Apparently 'Arrison has a way of his own, but
his ideas about English have always been so weird that it's not too
surprising.
--
athel
Jenny Telia
2019-11-04 07:02:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
So do I, more or less. Apparently 'Arrison has a way of his own, but his
ideas about English have always been so weird that it's not too surprising.
Plus, you have to remember he received his threadbare college education
in the US.
Spains Harden
2019-11-04 07:40:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Youtube has the trailer:


Lewis
2019-11-04 10:01:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
http://youtu.be/fOuAZLA_jWQ
And
at about 2m0s
--
Ah we're lonely, we're romantic / and the cider's laced with acid / and
the Holy Spirit's crying, Where's the beef? / And the moon is swimming
naked / and the summer night is fragrant / with a mighty expectation of
relief
Spains Harden
2019-11-05 15:37:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
http://youtu.be/fOuAZLA_jWQ
And http://youtu.be/vOIYaRb6XpQ at about 2m0s
Yes, thanks for that link too.
Lewis
2019-11-04 07:47:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.

Also, wroth is archaic.

The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"

Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
our truth is marching on!

Glory Glory Hallelujah! Teacher Hit me with a ruler!
Met her at the door with a loaded forty-four!
Our truth is marking on!

The lyrics varied a lot, especially in the third line of the verse and
the middle line of the chorus, and like the original you would sing many
verses, varying them a little as you went.

It was a popular song for singing on the school bus on the way to or
from a field trip.

(The song is a march, and all of the versions I found on YT are played
as dirges, so I didn't link to them)
--
I intend to live forever -- so far, so good!
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-04 07:52:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
Could you possibly change that to "we hanged the secretary"? Otherwise
people will start asking whether he was well hanged.

bill
Post by Lewis
our truth is marching on!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Teacher Hit me with a ruler!
Met her at the door with a loaded forty-four!
Our truth is marking on!
The lyrics varied a lot, especially in the third line of the verse and
the middle line of the chorus, and like the original you would sing many
verses, varying them a little as you went.
It was a popular song for singing on the school bus on the way to or
from a field trip.
(The song is a march, and all of the versions I found on YT are played
as dirges, so I didn't link to them)
Lewis
2019-11-04 09:57:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
Could you possibly change that to "we hanged the secretary"? Otherwise
people will start asking whether he was well hanged.
I could change it, but that is not how it was sung.

(The distinction between hung and hanged in AmE is largely
illusionary.)
--
Oh! I thought they smelled bad on the *outside*!
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-11-04 22:50:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
(The distinction between hung and hanged in AmE is largely
illusionary.)
Or even illusory.

/Anders, Denmark
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-04 14:49:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
Could you possibly change that to "we hanged the secretary"? Otherwise
people will start asking whether he was well hanged.
...

If that's too non-standard for you, you could use our version: "We have
went into the office and we shot the principal."
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-04 07:56:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-04 08:03:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
In my English, "wrath" rhymes with "math".

bill
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-04 14:50:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a word
that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-11-05 06:27:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-05 14:56:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
You snipped Spains's claim, 'The terrible refugee crisis documented in
The Grapes of Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").'
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-11-05 15:18:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle
Hymn of the Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; He
is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are
stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible
swift sword; His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced.
In any case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British
English with a word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You
could pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
You snipped Spains's claim, 'The terrible refugee crisis documented
in The Grapes of Wrath (last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE
"math").'
OK, I concede that I missed that point. I have a tendency to blip over
anything he says, based on past experience. And the fact that, as far as
I know, he has no competence in AmE.

I do accept that Steinbeck probably pronounced the word differently from
my pronunciation, although I didn't know that at the time I read the book.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2019-11-06 18:19:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many recordings of
people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with math.
--
WORDS IN THE HEART CANNOT BE TAKEN --Feet of Clay
musika
2019-11-06 19:31:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many recordings of
people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with math.
Like this one?

--
Ray
UK
Quinn C
2019-11-06 22:41:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many recordings of
people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with math.
And then there's William Blake.



--
Democracy means government by the uneducated,
while aristocracy means government by the badly educated.
-- G. K. Chesterton
Lewis
2019-11-06 22:52:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many recordings of
people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with math.
And then there's William Blake.
Do we have recordings of William Blake? And was he American?
Post by Quinn C
http://youtu.be/9FHuBoRSZto
http://youtu.be/aa-mCFq2Zlg
I expect that because of the song and The Steinbeck novel, wrath is a
more common word in the US than in the UK.
--
Man is born free, but is everywhere in chains.
Tony Cooper
2019-11-06 23:00:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:52:30 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be pronounced. In any
case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in British English with a
word that doesn't exist in British English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You could
pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many recordings of
people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with math.
And then there's William Blake.
Do we have recordings of William Blake? And was he American?
Post by Quinn C
http://youtu.be/9FHuBoRSZto
http://youtu.be/aa-mCFq2Zlg
I expect that because of the song and The Steinbeck novel, wrath is a
more common word in the US than in the UK.
It seems that Khan and Trump are prone to wrath.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-11-06 23:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle
Hymn of the Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; He
is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are
stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible
swift sword; His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be
pronounced. In any case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in
British English with a word that doesn't exist in British
English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You
could pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2019-11-07 00:14:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle
Hymn of the Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; He
is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are
stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible
swift sword; His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be
pronounced. In any case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in
British English with a word that doesn't exist in British
English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You
could pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
What performances of The Battle Hymn of the Republic did you find using
the UK pronunciation?
--
I WILL NOT GREASE THE MONKEY BARS Bart chalkboard Ep. 7F17
musika
2019-11-07 01:17:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
What performances of The Battle Hymn of the Republic did you find using
the UK pronunciation?
The one I posted.
--
Ray
UK
Lewis
2019-11-07 01:29:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
What performances of The Battle Hymn of the Republic did you find using
the UK pronunciation?
The one I posted.
The links there were to The Poison Tree by William Blake?
--
'Dojo! What is Rule One?' Even the cowering challenger mumbled along to
the chorus: 'Do not act incautiously when confronting little bald
wrinkly smiling men!'
musika
2019-11-07 09:12:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by musika
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
What performances of The Battle Hymn of the Republic did you find using
the UK pronunciation?
The one I posted.
The links there were to The Poison Tree by William Blake?
No, that was Quinn. Here's the link again.

http://youtu.be/Rj6bykzlOaM
--
Ray
UK
Peter Moylan
2019-11-07 04:05:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle
Hymn of the Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; He
is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are
stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible
swift sword; His truth is marching on.
That gives no hint of how "wrath" is supposed to be
pronounced. In any case 'Arrison was claiming that it rhymes in
British English with a word that doesn't exist in British
English.
I read it as a claim about how "wrath" is pronounced in American English.
Nothing in that verse supports one pronunciation over another. You
could pronounce it "dog" and the song would still rhyme.
Except that knowing it comes from a song you can find many
recordings of people singing it. Pretty sure they all rhyme it with
math.
No doubt you are right for US recordings. But web searches take into
account where you are, and live performances even more so, so the
performances I've heard didn't rhyme it with math or mome rath.
What performances of The Battle Hymn of the Republic did you find using
the UK pronunciation?
I must admit that I was going by live performances, because until now it
had never occurred to me to search for it on-line. However, I've just
done so, and one of the first hits is this one:


--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2019-11-04 10:52:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave....r
Peter Moylan
2019-11-04 11:54:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave....r
But his boots go marching on.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-07 00:57:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Lewis
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave....r
But his boots go marching on.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-04 11:53:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
our truth is marching on!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Teacher Hit me with a ruler!
Met her at the door with a loaded forty-four!
Our truth is marking on!
Australian children sing a very different song, although with strangely
similar sentiments.

Joy to the world, the school burned down
And all the teachers died
The principal is dead, we shot him in the head
The secretary too, we locked her in the loo
For ever and ever and e-ever.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2019-11-04 12:58:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
our truth is marching on!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Teacher Hit me with a ruler!
Met her at the door with a loaded forty-four!
Our truth is marking on!
Australian children sing a very different song, although with strangely
similar sentiments.
Joy to the world, the school burned down
And all the teachers died
The principal is dead, we shot him in the head
The secretary too, we locked her in the loo
For ever and ever and e-ever.
Oh, we had a version like that too, but a bit different. I don't
remember it as well, but the first line was the same, and I'm
reasonably sure the principal got shot in the head. Obviously, we
didn't lock the secretary in the loo, not having any loos.

I think we did something to the janitor instead?

Oh, and there was a version (or a verse?) where the principal was
hanging by his underwear from the flagpole, or something.
--
And she was drifting through the backyard
And she was taking off her dress
And she was moving very slowly
Rising up above the earth
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-04 12:24:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
The phrase, pwrhaps. It was presumably inspired by the biblical:

Revelation, 14:

[16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth;
and the earth was reaped.
[17] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he
also having a sharp sickle.
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over
fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle,
saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of
the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
[19] And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered
the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of
the wrath of God.
[20] And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came
out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space
of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Post by Lewis
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
There are several verses, and the song was popular during and after the
Civil War. It was also a song that, when I was a child, was parodied
often. Most famously as
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
we have tortured all the teachers we have broken every rule
we hung the secretary and we’ll drown the principal
our truth is marching on!
Glory Glory Hallelujah! Teacher Hit me with a ruler!
Met her at the door with a loaded forty-four!
Our truth is marking on!
The lyrics varied a lot, especially in the third line of the verse and
the middle line of the chorus, and like the original you would sing many
verses, varying them a little as you went.
It was a popular song for singing on the school bus on the way to or
from a field trip.
(The song is a march, and all of the versions I found on YT are played
as dirges, so I didn't link to them)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ken Blake
2019-11-04 15:55:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
Wroth is a different word than Wrath. Wrath (The Wrath of Khan, The
Grapes of Wrath) is definitely the short a vowel in bath math sass, etc.
Also, wroth is archaic.
The phrase "Grapes of Wrath" comes from a song, "The Battle Hymn of the
Republic"
Mine eyes hath seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
I was "sure" that that last line was "His truth goes marching on," but I
googled it to check before I corrected you. You were right; I was wrong.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2019-11-04 22:55:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Or mathematon? But when they had the four mathemata, algebra didn't
exist yet. They were arithmetic, music, geometry, and astronomy.
--
... their average size remains so much smaller; so that the sum
total of food converted into thought by women can never equal
[that of] men. It follows therefore, that men will always think
more than women. -- M.A. Hardaker in Popular Science (1881)
Ross
2019-11-05 10:14:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
This is a very confusing set of words. OED says:

wroth, adj. 'angry' Old English wráþ (related to "writhe")
This word has been "rare" since about 1500. But it got into the
KJ Bible, so everybody's seen it.

wrath, n. 'anger' Old English wrǽððu (Any other examples of nouns
derived from adjectives according to this pattern?)
A little less obsolete, but my impression is that _at least_ since
1800 it has not been an everyday word -- it's used in poetry,
sermons and anywhere else people want to put on a little style.

But wait...

wrath, adj. 'angry'.
Not common, but attested 1535-1862.
"variant of wroth adj., probably by association with wrath n."
So the two words, known mainly from books, are getting confused
with each other.

wroth, n. 'anger' (obsolete)
Examples 1400-1663. "< wroth adj., replacing wrath n. or wrethe n."

Confused? You are following sound English tradition.

The upshot is that (again per OED):

wroth 'angry' is pronounced in BrEng to rhyme with either "both" or "broth".
For AmEng they give two alternatives which appear to be identical,
so we turn to Jones XVIII.
They add the option (for BrEng) of rhyming it with the beginning of
"author". For AmEng it can have either the "caught" or "cot" vowel.

wrath 'anger' is either "broth" or "auth-" in BrEng, "bath" in AmEng

Going back 70-80 years, Jones 1940 (BrEng) does not allow "wroth" to
rhyme with "both".
And Kenyon & Knott 1944 (AmEng), while giving the "bath" as the normal
rhyme for wrath, note that "Eastern" speakers may also use an "ah",
vowel (i.e. BATH/TRAP split?) or the "cot" vowel.

I'd say a chronic confusion of the two words (like thee/thou, ye/you),
assisted by some spelling pronunciation, has produced this mess.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-05 14:54:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Algebra is my favourite mathematic.
Is that really true about wrath? I rhyme it with moth.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
wroth, adj. 'angry' Old English wráþ (related to "writhe")
This word has been "rare" since about 1500. But it got into the
KJ Bible, so everybody's seen it.
wrath, n. 'anger' Old English wrǽððu (Any other examples of nouns
derived from adjectives according to this pattern?)
A little less obsolete, but my impression is that _at least_ since
1800 it has not been an everyday word -- it's used in poetry,
sermons and anywhere else people want to put on a little style.
But wait...
wrath, adj. 'angry'.
Not common, but attested 1535-1862.
"variant of wroth adj., probably by association with wrath n."
So the two words, known mainly from books, are getting confused
with each other.
"Foxy was wrath." Rudyard Kipling, "In Ambush", 1898 but set about 20
years earlier.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3-MwQgnTfhwC&pg=RA1-PA314

I wonder whether that was a typo for "wrathy", though. The latter
appears four times in dialogue in the collection /Stalky & Co./
Post by Ross
wroth, n. 'anger' (obsolete)
Examples 1400-1663. "< wroth adj., replacing wrath n. or wrethe n."
Confused? You are following sound English tradition.
...

Always good to know. Thanks for the interesting stuff.
--
Jerry Friedman
Katy Jennison
2019-11-05 16:03:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
wroth, adj. 'angry'  Old English wráþ (related to "writhe")
     This word has been "rare" since about 1500. But it got into the
     KJ Bible, so everybody's seen it.
wrath, n. 'anger' Old English wrǽððu (Any other examples of nouns
     derived from adjectives according to this pattern?)
     A little less obsolete, but my impression is that _at least_ since
     1800 it has not been an everyday word -- it's used in poetry,
     sermons and anywhere else people want to put on a little style.
But wait...
wrath, adj.  'angry'.
     Not common, but attested 1535-1862.
     "variant of wroth adj., probably by association with wrath n."
     So the two words, known mainly from books, are getting confused
     with each other.
"Foxy was wrath."  Rudyard Kipling, "In Ambush", 1898 but set about 20
years earlier.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3-MwQgnTfhwC&pg=RA1-PA314
I wonder whether that was a typo for "wrathy", though.  The latter
appears four times in dialogue in the collection /Stalky & Co./
That's entirely plausible, especially as it's said by Stalky rather than
being an authorial comment, as it were.

Otherwise, I'd have expected "Foxy was wroth," adjective - the OED gives
a string of examples, of which these are the last three:

1842 Ld. Tennyson Dora in Poems (new ed.) II. 34 Then the old man
Was wroth, and doubled up his hands.
1853 C. Dickens Bleak House xl. 402 Sir Leicester is majestically wroth.
1880 R. D. Blackmore Mary Anerley xxxiii ‘I know it,’ said Carroway,
too wroth to swear.
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-04 06:20:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 3 Nov 2019 'Arrison (now calling 'imself Italian 'Ard-on, or some
[ … ]
Post by Spains Harden
America's own refugee crisis is overlooked - in this group and in society
generally. The terrible refugee crisis documented in The Grapes of Wrath
(last word pronounced to rhyme with BrE "math").
"Math" isn't a BrE word. We use it in the plural, always.
Quite apart from that (which is quite true), it sheds little light on
how 'Arrison thinks "wrath" is pronounced.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-03 18:34:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they
did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and
TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is
destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty
university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Who's "we"? You and your mother?
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
You're giving "Spains Harden" an awful lot of credit.

Over Here we say "Down Syndrome."
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-04 08:48:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Athel Cornish-Bowden <***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
[-]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your usage may have been influenced by your competence in French.
'La trisomie' ou 'la trisomie 21' is the standard term there
and 'syndrome de Down' is not used very often.
And 'Mongolisme' redirects to 'Trisomie 21', in Wikipedia Fr.

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-04 09:16:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your usage may have been influenced by your competence in French.
That is probably true.
Post by J. J. Lodder
'La trisomie' ou 'la trisomie 21' is the standard term there
and 'syndrome de Down' is not used very often.
And 'Mongolisme' redirects to 'Trisomie 21', in Wikipedia Fr.
That is also true (with no "probably").

Incidentally, Down himself originated the association with a supposed
"Mongoloid" race.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-04 13:12:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:16:43 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
For the meaning you're confusing Skippy's caption with I would never
say "Downs"; I would say "trisomics" or "people with Down's syndrome".
But surely you've grasped that that isn't the meaning that "Mongols"
has in the caption: to make any sense of Skippy's post (not always an
easy task) "Mongols" has to mean "Mongols", or, more specifically,
"Mongol hordes." Trisomics have never been regarded as cruel.
Your usage may have been influenced by your competence in French.
That is probably true.
Post by J. J. Lodder
'La trisomie' ou 'la trisomie 21' is the standard term there
and 'syndrome de Down' is not used very often.
And 'Mongolisme' redirects to 'Trisomie 21', in Wikipedia Fr.
That is also true (with no "probably").
Incidentally, Down himself originated the association with a supposed
"Mongoloid" race.
Yes. It was the facial appearance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome#Name

Due to his perception that children with Down syndrome shared facial
similarities with those of Blumenbach's Mongolian race, John Langdon
Down used the term "mongoloid". He felt that the existence of Down
syndrome confirmed that all peoples were genetically related
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
soup
2019-11-03 18:16:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by s***@gmail.com
Trump takes the oil (All post WW-II american presidents did - but they did it through stooges and maintained deniability).
https://news.wjct.org/post/if-us-takes-syrian-oil-it-may-violate-international-laws-against-pillage-0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Christianity was keeping Americans semi-civilized - but Hollywood and TV's never-ending quest for profits through subversion of all values is destroying Christianity (except grotesque charlatans like liberty university) in front of our eyes.
ObAUE "mongol" in BrE is wrong. "Downs" we say.
Well DEVO disagrees with you.
Mind you they are not Brits so...


Anecdote-
When I were nowt but a lad there was a chappy (with Down's syndrome)
used to stand on the pavement next to a major road and listen to a
boombox . He really seemed to be 'into' music and was ALWAYS (or at
least seemed ) to be genuinely happy.

Another chappy, years later, (again with Down's) seemed to be
permanently 'in drink' but he also was ALWAYS happy
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