Discussion:
Rhenish
(too old to reply)
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-22 01:13:23 UTC
Permalink
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
--
Jerry Friedman
The air is cool and it darkles.
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-22 10:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
Around LA, Rhenish gets the usual E as in bed, bet, peck, and Ren & Stimpy.
The aitch is not often aspirated.

The DJs, um, hosts come from across the continent,
but you'd be hard pressed to tell them about from any other educated Angeleno.
(And they wouldn't sound out of place in Portland, either.)

(Mark's previous job was in Toronto, Rich and Allen were raised in New York state, and Jim in the Chicago area, close to a Czech enclave.
Jennifer I think came from the MidWest. The others I have less information about; Gail /may/ be a native since she interned here in the '80s,
but also may have moved to LA for college.)

Anise from me is Ann + iss.

/dps
--
Like! > The air is cool and it darkles.
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-22 10:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Anise from me is Ann + iss.
that n is a bit shifty ...

-d
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-22 14:24:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
Around LA, Rhenish gets the usual E as in bed, bet, peck, and Ren & Stimpy.
Well, that's a relief.
Post by s***@gmail.com
The aitch is not often aspirated.
Here either.
Post by s***@gmail.com
The DJs, um, hosts come from across the continent,
but you'd be hard pressed to tell them about from any other educated Angeleno.
(And they wouldn't sound out of place in Portland, either.)
(Mark's previous job was in Toronto, Rich and Allen were raised in New York state, and Jim in the Chicago area, close to a Czech enclave.
Jennifer I think came from the MidWest. The others I have less information about; Gail /may/ be a native since she interned here in the '80s,
but also may have moved to LA for college.)
Anise from me is Ann + iss.
You, me, and dictionaries.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2019-11-22 17:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gmail.com
Around LA, Rhenish gets the usual E as in bed, bet, peck, and Ren & Stimpy.
Well, that's a relief.
Post by s***@gmail.com
The aitch is not often aspirated.
Here either.
How would that sound if it was? "Re-hennish", similar to "Gehenna"? I
don't see, in "Rhenish", an h that can expect to be sounded out in any
way.
--
The trouble some people have being German, I thought,
I have being human.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.130
b***@aol.com
2019-11-23 00:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gmail.com
Around LA, Rhenish gets the usual E as in bed, bet, peck, and Ren & Stimpy.
Well, that's a relief.
Post by s***@gmail.com
The aitch is not often aspirated.
Here either.
How would that sound if it was? "Re-hennish", similar to "Gehenna"? I
don't see, in "Rhenish", an h that can expect to be sounded out in any
way.
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
Post by Quinn C
--
The trouble some people have being German, I thought,
I have being human.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.130
RH Draney
2019-11-23 02:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-23 05:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while
others substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and
/?/ in its place; the former may have been someone misreading the
name)....r
I think that the problem I have with "Bahrain" is that I've almost
never heard it pronounced by a speaker of Arabic. When I were a lad it
came up mostly in the context of stamps, and then no one tried to
pronounce the h. If I heard it said by someone who knew how to say it I
could make a fair stab at imitating it.

I did have a cousin who worked for a while in Bahrain in the 1950s, in
the improbable job of selling ties in a tie shop. I don't remember how
he pronounced it (if I ever heard him, as we hardly ever saw him), but
my parents said it without h.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 16:11:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while
others substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and
/?/ in its place; the former may have been someone misreading the
name)....r
I think that the problem I have with "Bahrain" is that I've almost
never heard it pronounced by a speaker of Arabic. When I were a lad it
came up mostly in the context of stamps, and then no one tried to
pronounce the h. If I heard it said by someone who knew how to say it I
could make a fair stab at imitating it.
But pronouncing "like a speaker of Arabic" yields things like "gutter"
for Qatar.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I did have a cousin who worked for a while in Bahrain in the 1950s, in
the improbable job of selling ties in a tie shop. I don't remember how
he pronounced it (if I ever heard him, as we hardly ever saw him), but
my parents said it without h.
Improbable? What would you _expect_ someone to be selling in a tie shop?
Ken Blake
2019-11-23 17:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while
others substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and
/?/ in its place; the former may have been someone misreading the
name)....r
I think that the problem I have with "Bahrain" is that I've almost
never heard it pronounced by a speaker of Arabic. When I were a lad it
came up mostly in the context of stamps, and then no one tried to
pronounce the h. If I heard it said by someone who knew how to say it I
could make a fair stab at imitating it.
I did have a cousin who worked for a while in Bahrain in the 1950s, in
the improbable job of selling ties in a tie shop. I don't remember how
he pronounced it (if I ever heard him, as we hardly ever saw him), but
my parents said it without h.
I know the name of course, but I can't remember ever having heard anyone
pronounce it.

I just googled "pronounce bahrain" and listening to the citations, some
pronounced the second syllable like "rain," and others more like "reen."
Which is right?
--
Ken
David Kleinecke
2019-11-23 05:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I think /?/ would be the best one to use. I, for historical
reasons, use a voiceless /r/ like the old English "hr" words.
In any case I accent the second syllable which may be wrong
but helps make "hr" possible.
Quinn C
2019-11-23 16:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I think /?/ would be the best one to use. I, for historical
reasons, use a voiceless /r/ like the old English "hr" words.
In any case I accent the second syllable which may be wrong
but helps make "hr" possible.
I don't think it's wrong.

<https://forvo.com/word/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%B1%D9%8A%D9%86/#ar>
--
... she didn't exactly approve of the military. She didn't
exactly disapprove, either; she just made it plain that she
thought there were better things for intelligent human beings
to do with their lives. -- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory
Peter Moylan
2019-11-23 07:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English
phonotactics apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda.
Actually, it sounds a bit like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic
ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with
the name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while
others substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and
/?/ in its place; the former may have been someone misreading the
name)....r
I've always pronounced that with the 'h' realised something like a
German achlaut, although softer, but thinking about it I can't remember
how I picked up that habit. Presumably I heard it said that way some
time in the past.

A few years ago I had occasion to say l'chaim to an Israeli, and I used
the same back-of-the-throat 'ch'. He corrected me, pronouncing the 'ch'
just like an English 'h'.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-23 15:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English
phonotactics apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda.
Actually, it sounds a bit like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic
ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with
the name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while
others substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and
/?/ in its place; the former may have been someone misreading the
name)....r
I've always pronounced that with the 'h' realised something like a
German achlaut, although softer, but thinking about it I can't remember
how I picked up that habit. Presumably I heard it said that way some
time in the past.
A few years ago I had occasion to say l'chaim to an Israeli, and I used
the same back-of-the-throat 'ch'. He corrected me, pronouncing the 'ch'
just like an English 'h'.
Huh. My Israeli teachers said that sound in the back of the throat.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-11-24 00:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
A few years ago I had occasion to say l'chaim to an Israeli, and I
used the same back-of-the-throat 'ch'. He corrected me, pronouncing
the 'ch' just like an English 'h'.
Huh. My Israeli teachers said that sound in the back of the throat.
Given the diverse backgrounds of the people who migrated to Israel last
century, I would imagine that there would be a diversity of accents.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-24 00:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
A few years ago I had occasion to say l'chaim to an Israeli, and I
used the same back-of-the-throat 'ch'. He corrected me, pronouncing
the 'ch' just like an English 'h'.
Huh.  My Israeli teachers said that sound in the back of the throat.
Given the diverse backgrounds of the people who migrated to Israel last
century, I would imagine that there would be a diversity of accents.
Probably, but people don't usually correct others, even foreigners, to
their accent, especially if it's an unusual one.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2019-11-23 17:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
A few years ago I had occasion to say l'chaim to an Israeli, and I used
the same back-of-the-throat 'ch'. He corrected me, pronouncing the 'ch'
just like an English 'h'.
I've always pronounced it the same way you did, but I just googled
"pronounce l'chaim." Both are used. I guess, like English speakers, not
all Hebrew speakers pronounce everything the same way.

The same is true of Chanukkah/Hanukkah.
--
Ken
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-23 09:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-23 13:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-23 15:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English
phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2019-11-23 16:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-23 20:10:12 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
--
Jerry Friedman
Yusuf B Gursey
2019-11-26 17:54:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of any other pronunciation.
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-26 18:03:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
--
Jerry Friedman
Yusuf B Gursey
2019-11-27 21:06:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.

'a:mad آمَد is the old name of a city now in SW Turkey, now known as Diyarbakır, formerly Diyarbekir دياربكر
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-27 21:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.


She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-28 00:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of
any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.…
She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h more or less as in English was
quite good, and he agreed that the French way with no h at all was
definitely wrong.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-28 15:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of
any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.…
She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h more or less as in English was
quite good, and he agreed that the French way with no h at all was
definitely wrong.
The letter in question could also be transliterated with ch (cf. Hebrew
"Chet," the name of the letter), which would lead Francophones to "Ashmed."

Of course you can pronounce h-underdot. It just takes a modicum of practice
and good will.

An NPR newsreader named Doualy Xaykaothao (an *Atlantic* article on the
cool names of NPR people says she's "Lao-Hmong-American") is always
careful to pronounce her name with what sounds like an h-underdot before
the l. The article in WWS on Pahaw Hmong shows that Hmong has a series
of pre-aspirated continuants (as in "Hmong"), including hl. Her parents
may have lost the h "at Ellis Island" when they immigrated; but the X is
pronounced [s]. When she is mentioned by other NPR staffers, they say
[du'walij saj 'k&wt&w]. (The letter s stands for [S] in Hmong roman
orthography, and x is [s], so that sh is aspirated [S].)

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/why-do-npr-reporters-have-such-great-names/275493/
b***@aol.com
2019-11-28 16:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of
any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.…
She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h
ObAUE: or "an h"? (Isn't "a haitch" considered nonstandard?)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
more or less as in English was
quite good, and he agreed that the French way with no h at all was
definitely wrong.
The letter in question could also be transliterated with ch (cf. Hebrew
"Chet," the name of the letter), which would lead Francophones to "Ashmed."
Of course you can pronounce h-underdot. It just takes a modicum of practice
and good will.
An NPR newsreader named Doualy Xaykaothao (an *Atlantic* article on the
cool names of NPR people says she's "Lao-Hmong-American") is always
careful to pronounce her name with what sounds like an h-underdot before
the l. The article in WWS on Pahaw Hmong shows that Hmong has a series
of pre-aspirated continuants (as in "Hmong"), including hl. Her parents
may have lost the h "at Ellis Island" when they immigrated; but the X is
pronounced [s]. When she is mentioned by other NPR staffers, they say
[du'walij saj 'k&wt&w]. (The letter s stands for [S] in Hmong roman
orthography, and x is [s], so that sh is aspirated [S].)
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/why-do-npr-reporters-have-such-great-names/275493/
Peter Young
2019-11-28 17:34:45 UTC
Permalink
On 28 Nov 2019 ***@aol.com wrote:

[snip]
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h
ObAUE: or "an h"? (Isn't "a haitch" considered nonstandard?)
I hope I haven't screwed up the chevrons too badly, but they needed to be
put out of their misery.

How you pronounce the name of the letter between G and I is a regional
thing in Rightpondia. Most southern English people say "aitch", but I
think that some people in the North of England say haitch" but I'm not
sure. I think in Scotland it's "aitch" but I'm not sure.

The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In Northern
Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch" and Protestants
say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles this was used a test to
find out which sect someone belonged to when they didn't want to say.

ObAUE; "Ulster" is frequently used to mean Northern Ireland, but the
historical Province of Ulster contained three counties which are now in
The Republic.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-28 17:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
[snip]
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h
ObAUE: or "an h"? (Isn't "a haitch" considered nonstandard?)
Yes. I was careless. I meant "an h".
Post by Peter Young
I hope I haven't screwed up the chevrons too badly, but they needed to be
put out of their misery.
How you pronounce the name of the letter between G and I is a regional
thing in Rightpondia. Most southern English people say "aitch", but I
think that some people in the North of England say haitch" but I'm not
sure. I think in Scotland it's "aitch" but I'm not sure.
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In Northern
Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch" and Protestants
say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles this was used a test to
find out which sect someone belonged to when they didn't want to say.
ObAUE; "Ulster" is frequently used to mean Northern Ireland, but the
historical Province of Ulster contained three counties which are now in
The Republic.
Peter.
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-28 18:03:48 UTC
Permalink
On 28/11/2019 17:34, Peter Young wrote:

<snip>
Post by Peter Young
How you pronounce the name of the letter between G and I is a regional
thing in Rightpondia. Most southern English people say "aitch",
Most, perhaps - but many don't.

I say "aitch", but at my school in Gloucester some of the pupils
routinely said "haitch". I once overheard one contemporary attempting to
correct another's pronunciation: "No! There's no 'huh'! It's spelled eh
eye tee sea haitch!"
Post by Peter Young
but I
think that some people in the North of England say haitch" but I'm not
sure. I think in Scotland it's "aitch" but I'm not sure.
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In Northern
Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch" and Protestants
say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles this was used a test to
find out which sect someone belonged to when they didn't want to say.
So it was a sibboleth. A sib...; a sib...

Damn.

<snip>
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
CDB
2019-11-29 14:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by Peter Young
How you pronounce the name of the letter between G and I is a
regional thing in Rightpondia. Most southern English people say
"aitch",
Most, perhaps - but many don't.
I say "aitch", but at my school in Gloucester some of the pupils
routinely said "haitch". I once overheard one contemporary attempting
to correct another's pronunciation: "No! There's no 'huh'! It's
spelled eh eye tee sea haitch!"
Post by Peter Young
but I think that some people in the North of England say haitch"
but I'm not sure. I think in Scotland it's "aitch" but I'm not
sure.
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In
Northern Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch"
and Protestants say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles
this was used a test to find out which sect someone belonged to
when they didn't want to say.
I had a teacher here in Ottawa who said "haitch", and was occasionally
mocked for it by my fellow-students, although not to his face. I think
his name was Byrne.
Post by Richard Heathfield
So it was a sibboleth. A sib...; a sib...
Damn.
The orthodox response to that frustration is "Oh, sit"; and then we
frust a dagger up yer strap.*
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
_____________________________________________________________
*Phrase (last four words) possibly misused, on the basis of dim memories
of comic BrE.

Elucidations appreciated.
b***@aol.com
2019-11-28 19:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
[snip]
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h
ObAUE: or "an h"? (Isn't "a haitch" considered nonstandard?)
I hope I haven't screwed up the chevrons too badly, but they needed to be
put out of their misery.
How you pronounce the name of the letter between G and I is a regional
thing in Rightpondia. Most southern English people say "aitch", but I
think that some people in the North of England say haitch" but I'm not
sure. I think in Scotland it's "aitch" but I'm not sure.
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In Northern
Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch" and Protestants
say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles this was used a test to
find out which sect someone belonged to when they didn't want to say.
Interesting, thanks. I had no idea this question had such implications.
Post by Peter Young
ObAUE; "Ulster" is frequently used to mean Northern Ireland, but the
historical Province of Ulster contained three counties which are now in
The Republic.
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter Moylan
2019-11-28 21:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation. In
Northern Ireland the divide is sectarian. Catholics say "Haitch" and
Protestants say "aitch". It's said that during the Troubles this was
used a test to find out which sect someone belonged to when they
didn't want to say.
There is a similar divide in Australia, mostly because of massive Irish
migration to Australia in the 19th century. "Haitch" is considered
substandard here, but it is common among those who went to convent schools.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2019-11-29 18:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
The real divide is in Ireland. In The Republic I think "haitch" is
universal and my half-Irish wife used this pronunciation.
I just ran into that here:

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Yusuf B Gursey
2019-12-03 15:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of
any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.…
She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
It's an unvoiced pharygeal frictaive in Arabic [ħ] which was rendered as [h] in Persian and thus so in Turkish, Urdu etc.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
he said that my pronunciation with a h more or less as in English was
quite good, and he agreed that the French way with no h at all was
definitely wrong.
--
athel
Yusuf B Gursey
2019-12-03 15:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of
any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.…
She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
/ʔaħmad/ in Classical Arabic. The first /a/ tends to be realized further back than the second.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As it happens I ran into Ahmed today, and I asked him how to pronounce
his name. He pronounced the h in a way that I couldn't reproduce, but
he said that my pronunciation with a h more or less as in English was
quite good, and he agreed that the French way with no h at all was
definitely wrong.
--
athel
Yusuf B Gursey
2019-12-03 15:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
I had a student with that surname, and she laughed in embarrassment when
I pronounced the "h".
"she"?
Yes, it was her surname.
It's 'aħmad with the unvoiced pharyngeal fricative ħ. I can't think of any other pronunciation.
Well, I didn't attempt an unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, and I'd have
to guess at how. But based on later interactions, I think she doesn't
pronounce the "h" at all.
I don't know her background but that is very unusual for an Arab.

She was obviously a native speaker of English. I don't know whether
she spoke any Arabic at all.
That only matters concerning English then. Final syllable [h] is against normal English phonotactics, but neccessary in distinguishing foreign names.
Post by Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2019-11-23 16:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by RH Draney
Post by b***@aol.com
I don't find it impossible to pronounce at all, but English phonotactics
apparently don't allow /h/ in the syllable coda. Actually, it sounds a bit
like a guttural Hebrew ayin or Arabic ayn.
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
Ahmed (and maybe Bahrain) is (are) pronounced with the letter "ha" in
Arabic, as in e.g.:




But what I meant for "rh" in "Rhenish" if the "h" was sounded is closer
to the Arabic "ayn", as pronounced here:


Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 16:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by RH Draney
I've noticed a lot of presumed English-speakers having trouble with the
name "Bahrain"...some omit any realization of the H at all, while others
substitute some other sound (today alone, I heard both /n/ and /?/ in
its place; the former may have been someone misreading the name)....r
I have been told the correct pronunciation is as if spelled Bachrein,
with a moderate Dutch ch sound,
There is someone in our building called Ahmed. I pronounce the h, but I
don't think anyone else does, except, probably, himself. (Come to think
of it, we have plenty of Arabic speakers, but I've never paid attention
to how they say Ahmed.)
Both Bahrein and Ahmed (which is from the same root as Muhammad) are
spelled with the letter ح, which is transliterated with h-underdot and
is described phonetically as a voiceless `ayn. It can be though of as
between an h and an ach-laut, but since Arabic has both of those, it
shouldn't be pronounced like either of them.
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-22 17:26:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,

Jan
Jack
2019-11-22 18:35:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
Like "rheinisch"?

https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd

--
John
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-22 20:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2019-11-22 22:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, [...]
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-23 09:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, [...]
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,

Jan
Quinn C
2019-11-23 15:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,
There are no short and long versions of diphthongs in either German or
English. Physically, the one in "price" might be shorter, but only
because of the following consonant; so take, let's see, the one in
"RHINE"?
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 18:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,
There are no short and long versions of diphthongs in either German or
English. Physically, the one in "price" might be shorter, but only
because of the following consonant; so take, let's see, the one in
"RHINE"?
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics (which used to be the second semester of
Introduction to Linguistics), because of the "Rhenish Fan," a pattern
of isoglosses found near the northern part of the Rhine that shows
that sound change is not uniform across a whole dialect area.

Maybe the recording being identified by "She" is by the Staatskapelle
Dresden, and "She" was aiming for authenticity. They've recorded
Schumann's Rhenish Symphony any number of times.
charles
2019-11-23 19:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,
There are no short and long versions of diphthongs in either German or
English. Physically, the one in "price" might be shorter, but only
because of the following consonant; so take, let's see, the one in
"RHINE"?
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish wine to
drink ..."
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 21:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,
There are no short and long versions of diphthongs in either German or
English. Physically, the one in "price" might be shorter, but only
because of the following consonant; so take, let's see, the one in
"RHINE"?
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish wine to
drink ..."
If I knew the show better, I could put on the Martyn Green recording
(acquired, luckily, during the brief window when Naxos Historical was
able to reprint the whole series; sadly he never did *Princess Ida*
because the sets were destroyed in one of the regular D'Oyly Carte
warehouse fires) and go right to the relevant song and report the
pronunciation.

These days we say "Rhine wine," which seems like simultaneously a
calque and a loanword.
Quinn C
2019-11-24 03:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish wine to
drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-24 04:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish wine to
drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,

The bank statement gave a nice shock
To the spendthrift on wine. He took stock.
"It's time to replenish
My holdings of Rhenish--
It's too strange to be all out of hock."

OK, that might have been predictable.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-11-24 11:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
b***@aol.com
2019-11-24 17:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-24 17:42:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
All this ad hockery gets on my nerves.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-24 18:29:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:42:40 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
All this ad hockery gets on my nerves.
Just hiller for the tramp!


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2019-11-24 23:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Paul Wolff
2019-11-25 23:48:51 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, at 10:57:34, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
The etymon Hochheim is on the Main, not the Rhein. Perhaps 'Rhenish'
should be corrected to 'Manish' (auf Englisch).
--
Paul
who prefers the Mosel to either.
musika
2019-11-26 01:12:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, at 10:57:34, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine.  He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
The etymon Hochheim is on the Main, not the Rhein. Perhaps 'Rhenish'
should be corrected to 'Manish' (auf Englisch).
No, it's in the Rheingau region.
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-26 10:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, at 10:57:34, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
The etymon Hochheim is on the Main, not the Rhein. Perhaps 'Rhenish'
should be corrected to 'Manish' (auf Englisch).
Paul
who prefers the Mosel to either.
40 or 50 years ago I would have agreed, but nowadays I'm not keen on
any of them.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-27 08:19:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, at 10:57:34, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
The etymon Hochheim is on the Main, not the Rhein. Perhaps 'Rhenish'
should be corrected to 'Manish' (auf Englisch).
Paul
who prefers the Mosel to either.
40 or 50 years ago I would have agreed, but nowadays I'm not keen on
any of them.
You have changed, those Germans haven't,

Jan
Ken Blake
2019-11-26 18:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
Or perhaps, Post hoc, ergo propter hock.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2019-11-26 22:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
Or perhaps, Post hoc, ergo propter hock.
You people need to look for *proper* hock. "Propter" looks like a
Chinese knock-off.
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi
Peter Moylan
2019-11-26 23:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine. He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's too
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
Or perhaps, Post hoc, ergo propter hock.
Hic.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-26 23:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an
Introduction to Historical Linguistics
Also used by WS Gilbert in the Gondoliers " When he had Rhenish
wine to drink ..."
Now that takes the rhyme out of Rhyme... I mean, Rheinwein.
Speaking of rhymes,
The bank statement gave a nice shock To the spendthrift on wine.  He
took stock. "It's time to replenish My holdings of Rhenish-- It's
too
Post by Jerry Friedman
strange to be all out of hock."
OK, that might have been predictable.
In hock soll er leben.
An ad-hock quip.
Post hock, ergo propter hock.
Or perhaps, Post hoc, ergo propter hock.
Hic.
The first one to even *hint* that the vicar is a hunc will feel the back
of my hand, you mark my words!
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-23 20:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
PRICE would have been more authentic, then, unless she wanted to sound
like someone from Dresden.
Yes, but the 'i' in rice is short,
and the German 'ei' would be long and emphasised,
There are no short and long versions of diphthongs in either German or
English. Physically, the one in "price" might be shorter, but only
because of the following consonant; so take, let's see, the one in
"RHINE"?
The English word "Rhenish" is known to anyone who's had an Introduction
to Historical Linguistics (which used to be the second semester of
Introduction to Linguistics), because of the "Rhenish Fan," a pattern
of isoglosses found near the northern part of the Rhine that shows
that sound change is not uniform across a whole dialect area.
Maybe the recording being identified by "She" is by the Staatskapelle
Dresden, and "She" was aiming for authenticity. They've recorded
Schumann's Rhenish Symphony any number of times.
I think the young people would describe such an attempt as "Weird flex
but OK." Anyway, if I had to remember, I might guess it was the
Concertgebouw Orchestra.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-23 09:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
[sorry about piggy-backing,
but your posting didn't make it to my server]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
Yes, of course, but the lecturer mentioned above
apparently thinks it is spelled 'Rhenisch',
and then the FACE is appropriate.
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
Two syllables is correct, and pronouncing it as E. Synphony' would do,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-23 16:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
[sorry about piggy-backing,
but your posting didn't make it to my server]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
Yes, of course, but the lecturer mentioned above
apparently thinks it is spelled 'Rhenisch',
and then the FACE is appropriate.
Who knows what either the lecturer or the disk jockey thinks about the
spelling?
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
Two syllables is correct,
It's correct for English "Rhenish", but she (the disk jockey) used a
non-English R. That suggests that she was trying for German, in which
case three syllables would have been correct.
Post by J. J. Lodder
and pronouncing it as E. Synphony' would do,
Although "Zynphony" would be just as easy and better, if I'm not
mistaken. But as far as I could tell, she used the ordinary English
pronunciation of "symphony".

As far as I know, when Schumann's Third Symphony is referred to by title
by English speakers, the title is given in English (unlike that of
Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique). It seems to be fairly arbitrary
whether a classical piece's title is translated or given in the original
language. There does seem to be a rule that operas in Italian based on
plays by Beaumarchais get titles in English.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-23 16:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Almost a year ago I watched a series of video lectures about Robert and
Clara Schumann in which the lecturer pronounced "Rhenish" with the FACE
vowel in the first syllable. Today I heard a classical DJ pronounce it
the same way and with a German-style /r/, although German doesn't appear
in the etymology of the word. (I suppose it might have been a
French-style /r/.) Have other people heard that pronunciation? Inside
or outside the world of classical music? Is is one of those things
where a new pronunciation spreads within a subculture, the way many
chefs rhyme "anise" with "piece"? Is it a conspiracy? And can it be
stopped?
What is wrong with striving for autenticity?
It may have been a fairly succesful attempt
to pronounce it like the original German,
[sorry about piggy-backing,
but your posting didn't make it to my server]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jack
Like "rheinisch"?
https://tinyurl.com/w8u72qd
Yes, of course, but the lecturer mentioned above
apparently thinks it is spelled 'Rhenisch',
and then the FACE is appropriate.
Who knows what either the lecturer or the disk jockey thinks about the
spelling?
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Rheinische Sinfonie", apparently. She was quite clearly saying the
FACE vowel, pronouncing "Rhenish" with two syllables, and making no
attempt at "Sinfonie".
Two syllables is correct,
It's correct for English "Rhenish", but she (the disk jockey) used a
non-English R. That suggests that she was trying for German, in which
case three syllables would have been correct.
Post by J. J. Lodder
and pronouncing it as E. Synphony' would do,
Although "Zynphony" would be just as easy and better, if I'm not
mistaken. But as far as I could tell, she used the ordinary English
pronunciation of "symphony".
As far as I know, when Schumann's Third Symphony is referred to by
title by English speakers, the title is given in English (unlike that
of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique). It seems to be fairly arbitrary
whether a classical piece's title is translated or given in the
original language. There does seem to be a rule that operas in Italian
based on plays by Beaumarchais get titles in English.
The Symphonie Fantastique is the only well known classical work I can
think that is always named in French. The Rite of Spring sometimes is,
but not always. Likewise Swan Lake. Probably there are plenty of other
examples.

This raises a different musical question, why is the English horn
usually called the cor anglais, whereas the cor français is usually
called the French horn. (In British English in both cases, of course).
--
athel
Peter Young
2019-11-23 16:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 19:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The Symphonie Fantastique is the only well known classical work I can
think that is always named in French. The Rite of Spring sometimes is,
but not always. Likewise Swan Lake. Probably there are plenty of other
examples.
Danse Macabre?
La Damnation de Faust?
La Mer?
L'enfant et les sortileges?
Poissons d'or?
L'aprés-midi d'un faune?
And many others.
Pavane pour une enfante défunte (which is not intended to have any
meaning at all -- Ravel named it solely for the euphony of the words)
ObAUE: What are these works?
An afternoon on the phone.
On cooking the first hero in spring.
Orange juice concerto.
The bum of the flight'll bee.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This raises a different musical question, why is the English horn
usually called the cor anglais, whereas the cor français is usually
called the French horn. (In British English in both cases, of course).
It's not "cor français" anywhere.
Orchestral musicians usually call the cor anglais just the "cor". One
rather far-fetched explanation of the name is that it was the "cor angleé"
because of the bend between the reed and the instrument.
Why far-fetched? Earlier English music sometimes labels it "anglehorn."

Have you just devised the first greeng'rocérs acute? (anglé)
Basset horn, anyone?
Mozart, for one
Peter Young
2019-11-23 21:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The Symphonie Fantastique is the only well known classical work I can
think that is always named in French. The Rite of Spring sometimes is,
but not always. Likewise Swan Lake. Probably there are plenty of other
examples.
Danse Macabre?
La Damnation de Faust?
La Mer?
L'enfant et les sortileges?
Poissons d'or?
L'aprés-midi d'un faune?
And many others.
Pavane pour une enfante défunte (which is not intended to have any
meaning at all -- Ravel named it solely for the euphony of the words)
ObAUE: What are these works?
An afternoon on the phone.
On cooking the first hero in spring.
Orange juice concerto.
The bum of the flight'll bee.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This raises a different musical question, why is the English horn
usually called the cor anglais, whereas the cor français is usually
called the French horn. (In British English in both cases, of course).
It's not "cor français" anywhere.
Orchestral musicians usually call the cor anglais just the "cor". One
rather far-fetched explanation of the name is that it was the "cor angleé"
because of the bend between the reed and the instrument.
Why far-fetched? Earlier English music sometimes labels it "anglehorn."
I never knew that. Citation please?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Have you just devised the first greeng'rocérs acute? (anglé)
Basset horn, anyone?
Mozart, for one
But the derivation of the name? The one I have read also seems
far-fetched.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-23 22:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Orchestral musicians usually call the cor anglais just the "cor". One
rather far-fetched explanation of the name is that it was the "cor angleé"
because of the bend between the reed and the instrument.
Why far-fetched? Earlier English music sometimes labels it "anglehorn."
I never knew that. Citation please?
How should I know? Some history of musical instruments, or of
orchestration? a glance at some 18th-century printed music?
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Have you just devised the first greeng'rocérs acute? (anglé)
Basset horn, anyone?
Mozart, for one
But the derivation of the name? The one I have read also seems
far-fetched.
Relation to "bass"?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-24 09:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The Symphonie Fantastique is the only well known classical work I can
think that is always named in French. The Rite of Spring sometimes is,
but not always. Likewise Swan Lake. Probably there are plenty of other
examples.
Danse Macabre?
La Damnation de Faust?
La Mer?
L'enfant et les sortileges?
Poissons d'or?
L'aprés-midi d'un faune?
And many others.
Pavane pour une enfante défunte (which is not intended to have any
meaning at all -- Ravel named it solely for the euphony of the words)
ObAUE: What are these works?
An afternoon on the phone.
On cooking the first hero in spring.
Orange juice concerto.
The bum of the flight'll bee.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This raises a different musical question, why is the English horn
usually called the cor anglais, whereas the cor français is usually
called the French horn. (In British English in both cases, of course).
It's not "cor français" anywhere.
I know, but that's not the point.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Orchestral musicians usually call the cor anglais just the "cor". One
rather far-fetched explanation of the name is that it was the "cor angleé"
because of the bend between the reed and the instrument.
Why far-fetched? Earlier English music sometimes labels it "anglehorn."
I never knew that. Citation please?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Have you just devised the first greeng'rocérs acute? (anglé)
Basset horn, anyone?
Mozart, for one
But the derivation of the name? The one I have read also seems
far-fetched.
Peter.
--
athel
RH Draney
2019-11-23 23:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This raises a different musical question, why is the English horn
usually called the cor anglais, whereas the cor français is usually
called the French horn. (In British English in both cases, of course).
It's not "cor français" anywhere.
Orchestral musicians usually call the cor anglais just the "cor". One
rather far-fetched explanation of the name is that it was the "cor angleé"
because of the bend between the reed and the instrument.
Why far-fetched? Earlier English music sometimes labels it "anglehorn."
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....r
Quinn C
2019-11-24 04:11:48 UTC
Permalink
L'apr豭midi d'un faune?
Your news client is particularly bad - not using utf-8 and then lying
about it.
--
But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-24 14:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
L'apr豭midi d'un faune?
Your news client is particularly bad - not using utf-8 and then lying
about it.
It was ok by me until you quoted it, so, ...

Or maybe your Québecois machine was complaining because (as I didn't notice
earlier) he used an acute instead of a grave.
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