Discussion:
10 percent of men and women
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a***@gmail.com
2018-01-10 11:11:51 UTC
Permalink
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.

Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?

2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.

If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?

Gratefully,
Navi.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-10 12:21:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!

2) It has far more to worry about than whether it's correct grammar!
It's basically meaningless.
Harrison Hill
2018-01-10 13:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2) It has far more to worry about than whether it's correct grammar!
It's basically meaningless.
Are you objecting to "*A* brother-in-law or sister-in-law"?
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-01-10 14:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
No, it doesn't, unless you're assuming that 10 percent of men and
women means 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women which
you have absolutely no right to assume whatsoever (not least
because such parity is extremely unlikely). As the sentence stands
it's clearly a prolix and therefore irritating way of saying 'people'.
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2) It has far more to worry about than whether it's correct grammar!
It's basically meaningless.
Are you objecting to "*A* brother-in-law or sister-in-law"?
Well it is certainly unclear as to whose brother/sister-in-law it is
or which of them the men or women in question are supposed to
have had affairs with! But the whole 'fact' is simply meaningless.
What does between X% and Y% (I've corrected the wholly
inappropriate 'to', you'll notice) even signify? Are we supposed
to conclude that its X% for men and Y% for women or that the
survey was so vague as to make it impossible to come up
with an actual figure? Basically, what do we know after reading
this that we didn't know before? Absolutely nothing!
Jerry Friedman
2018-01-10 20:23:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
No, it doesn't, unless you're assuming that 10 percent of men and
women means 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women which
you have absolutely no right to assume whatsoever (not least
because such parity is extremely unlikely). As the sentence stands
it's clearly a prolix and therefore irritating way of saying 'people'.
I'd say it's almost certainly a concise way of saying "10% of men over
70 and 10% of women over 70". Does anyone actually say "men and women"
to mean "people" in mathematical statements like that?

I'd probably write something "10% of people over 70, with roughly
equal numbers of men and women", though.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2) It has far more to worry about than whether it's correct grammar!
It's basically meaningless.
Are you objecting to "*A* brother-in-law or sister-in-law"?
Well it is certainly unclear as to whose brother/sister-in-law it is
or which of them the men or women in question are supposed to
have had affairs with!
It's the brother-in-law or sister-in-law of the person who had
the affair. The sentence doesn't break down what percent of those
affairs are between two men, between two women, and between a man and
a woman, if that's what you're talking about but it doesn't need to.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
But the whole 'fact' is simply meaningless.
What does between X% and Y% (I've corrected the wholly
inappropriate 'to', you'll notice)
I agree, though "between X to Y" is very common in my country.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
even signify? Are we supposed
to conclude that its X% for men and Y% for women or that the
survey was so vague as to make it impossible to come up
with an actual figure?
Of course it was that vague. Surveys have margins of error and should
report them instead of just reporting most likely values. I'd be
surprised if you could get even a precision of +-2% on a question
that many people would lie about.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Basically, what do we know after reading
this that we didn't know before? Absolutely nothing!
I disagree. Again, I don't think the sentence is great, but the only
thing missing from the sentence as it stands is a definition of "affair".
Does it have to last longer than one night?
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
2018-01-10 21:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
No, it doesn't, unless you're assuming that 10 percent of men and
women means 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women which
you have absolutely no right to assume whatsoever (not least
because such parity is extremely unlikely). As the sentence stands
it's clearly a prolix and therefore irritating way of saying 'people'.
I'd say it's almost certainly a concise way of saying "10% of men over
70 and 10% of women over 70". Does anyone actually say "men and women"
to mean "people" in mathematical statements like that?
I'd probably write something "10% of people over 70, with roughly
equal numbers of men and women", though.
I'd almost certainly hear "men and women" as a synonym for
people. Of course, it's not a mathematical statement to me -
it's just everyday arithmetic.
Peter Moylan
2018-01-11 00:53:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Wednesday, 10 January 2018 12:21:50 UTC, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy
suffer from this condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women? Or
does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an
affair with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were
the same for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
No, it doesn't, unless you're assuming that 10 percent of men and
women means 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women which you have
absolutely no right to assume whatsoever (not least because such
parity is extremely unlikely). As the sentence stands it's clearly a
prolix and therefore irritating way of saying 'people'.
I wouldn't hear it that way. Nobody[1] would say "men and women" to mean
"people" unless they wanted to underline the fact that the results are
the same for men as they are for women.

[1] Well, perhaps somebody would, but if so that somebody is asking to
be misunderstood.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
a***@gmail.com
2018-01-11 08:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
On Wednesday, 10 January 2018 12:21:50 UTC, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy
suffer from this condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women? Or
does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an
affair with a brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were
the same for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
Gratefully,
1) People! It's an annoying redundancy that is all too common!
There are many conditions in old age that affect one sex
disproportionally; and far from being a redundancy "men and women"
tells us that this is *not* one of those conditions.
No, it doesn't, unless you're assuming that 10 percent of men and
women means 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women which you have
absolutely no right to assume whatsoever (not least because such
parity is extremely unlikely). As the sentence stands it's clearly a
prolix and therefore irritating way of saying 'people'.
I wouldn't hear it that way. Nobody[1] would say "men and women" to mean
"people" unless they wanted to underline the fact that the results are
the same for men as they are for women.
[1] Well, perhaps somebody would, but if so that somebody is asking to
be misunderstood.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Thank you all very much for your contributions,

Consider the following statistics:


"In over 1/3 of marriages, one or both partners admit to cheating.

22% of men say that they've cheated on their significant other.

14% of women admit to cheating on their significant other.

36% of men and women admit to having an affair with a coworker.

17% of men and women admit to having an affair with a sister-in-law or brother-in-law."

SOURCE:

https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/cheating-and-infidelity/stats-about-infidelity.html


Now, what is one to make of those figures?!

It seems to me that

36% of men and women admit to having an affair with a coworker.

Is really supposed to mean:
36% of men and women WHO CHEATED ON THEIR PARTNER admit to....

Or else, figures wouldn't match at all.

And the 'men and women' thing is truly confusing. I don't think it means
36% of men and 36% of women... it just means 36% of cheaters... it just
wants to drive in the idea that both men and women do it, and assumes we'll
figure out that the percentages differ.

Gratefully,
Navi.

Harrison Hill
2018-01-10 12:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
A strange question, navi. Men and women are approximately equal
in numbers, aren't we? So there is no distinction? Your explanation
introduces a new ambiguity: 10 percent of 'people' could mean 20 percent
of one sex and none of the other - hence the "men and women".
Post by a***@gmail.com
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
It isn't wrong; but I'd say "Between 14 AND 18 percent...", "FROM
14 to 18 percent..."; and your sentence pulls me up as I meet an
unexpected combination of the two. Notwithstanding that, '2' is
grammatical.
Richard Yates
2018-01-10 14:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
Mathematically they are the same (assuming that 'men' + 'women' =
'people'):
.1*(m+w)=.1*m+.1*w

I understood the sentence to mean "10 percent of (men and women)...".
Post by a***@gmail.com
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you?
No, I would not assume that. I would recognize that the sentence might
be read multiple ways and would tend to read it as the percentages for
men and women were different and both were in the range of 14 to 18
percent.
Post by a***@gmail.com
But is '2' grammatical?
Sure. Grammar does not ensure clarity.
Ken Blake
2018-01-10 15:40:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 06:29:34 -0800, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
Mathematically they are the same (assuming that 'men' + 'women' =
.1*(m+w)=.1*m+.1*w
I understood the sentence to mean "10 percent of (men and women)...".
Most likely that's what was meant, but it could also mean 10 percent
of
Mark Brader
2018-01-10 19:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
Mathematically they are the same (assuming that 'men' + 'women' =
Nonsense. The first option is two different mathematical statements
(and is the wrong answer).
--
Mark Brader | "The race is not always to the swift,
Toronto | nor the battle to the strong --
***@vex.net | but that is the way to bet it." --Damon Runyon
Richard Tobin
2018-01-10 19:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
Mathematically they are the same (assuming that 'men' + 'women' =
.1*(m+w)=.1*m+.1*w
But if, say, m=w then .1(m+w) = .05m + .15w.

That is, 10% of people could be 5% of men and 15% of women.

-- Richard
Harrison Hill
2018-01-10 20:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Richard Yates
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
Mathematically they are the same (assuming that 'men' + 'women' =
.1*(m+w)=.1*m+.1*w
But if, say, m=w then .1(m+w) = .05m + .15w.
That is, 10% of people could be 5% of men and 15% of women.
Well no. If you are determined to destroy common sense
and normal English, then you have overlooked the fact that
hearts and other organs deteriorate faster in the over
70s than other parts. 30% of a 70yo man is made up of heart,
liver, lung and kidney, and that is merely judging them
by importance. I myself am 12% indestructible, thanks to my
prosthetic limbs.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-01-10 15:53:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) Approximately, 10 percent of men and women over seventy suffer from this
condition.
Does that mean 10 percent of men and 10 percent of women?
Or does that mean 10 percent of 'people'?
2) Between 14 to 18 percent of men and women have had an affair with a
brother-in-law or sister-in-law.
If you read '2', you wouldn't assume that the statistics were the same
for men and women, would you? But is '2' grammatical?
SCOPE AMBIGUITY.

Why do you keep asking about this?
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