Discussion:
zaml
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b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-04 23:04:10 UTC
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A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
I've never heard it, and if he said it to me, I'd have to ask what
he was talking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain, but that's
a lot of trouble to save one syllable. Some folks have to
do things their own way.

bill
Stefan Ram
2020-02-04 23:15:38 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
I've never heard it, and if he said it to me, I'd have to ask what
he was talking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain, but that's
a lot of trouble to save one syllable. Some folks have to
do things their own way.
I pronounce every single letter: "X" "M" "L", so
when I speak fast, it effectively becomes: "egg smell".

"XAML" is already another matter: the extensible
/application/ markup language.
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-05 05:27:43 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
I've never heard it, and if he said it to me, I'd have to ask what
he was talking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain, but that's
a lot of trouble to save one syllable. Some folks have to
do things their own way.
Apparently in the Google environment for virtual machines,
there's a required file describing the relationship between VM options
and the code to be run on the VM,
and that is called a "yaml file".

(And like the terminals in your office, Bill,
you would expect things to just work
and if they didn't you'd be calling the support staff
(would it be the IT department in that environment?)
and they'd be the ones who would know about "yaml".)

I almost can't imagine /not/ saying "yaml" as a word,
and perhaps Quinn's new colleague is influenced by that.

Likewise, "Rav-4" is two syllables,
while "CR-V" , "CTS", and "LTD" are 3 syllables.

/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-05 15:55:03 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Apparently in the Google environment for virtual machines,
there's a required file describing the relationship between VM options
and the code to be run on the VM,
and that is called a "yaml file".
(And like the terminals in your office, Bill,
you would expect things to just work
and if they didn't you'd be calling the support staff
(would it be the IT department in that environment?)
and they'd be the ones who would know about "yaml".)
I almost can't imagine /not/ saying "yaml" as a word,
and perhaps Quinn's new colleague is influenced by that.
Likewise, "Rav-4" is two syllables,
while "CR-V" , "CTS", and "LTD" are 3 syllables.
I'm always astonished by eff eigh cue for fack.

(And by jee ess double-you for gunshot wound.)
Quinn C
2020-02-05 18:09:27 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by b***@shaw.ca
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
I've never heard it, and if he said it to me, I'd have to ask what
he was talking about. I'm sure he'd be happy to explain, but that's
a lot of trouble to save one syllable. Some folks have to
do things their own way.
Apparently in the Google environment for virtual machines,
there's a required file describing the relationship between VM options
and the code to be run on the VM,
and that is called a "yaml file".
As a Ruby programmer, I've known about yaml for a liong time. Ruby
adopted it as standard serialization format early on.

In the wider programming world, the similar, but harder to read JSON
won out, as these things often go ...
Post by s***@gmail.com
I almost can't imagine /not/ saying "yaml" as a word,
and perhaps Quinn's new colleague is influenced by that.
That makes some sense, except that XML is both older and much better
known than YAML.
--
What Phrenzy in my Bosom rag'd,
And by what Care to be asswag'd?
-- Sappho, transl. Addison (1711)
What was it that my distracted heart most wanted?
-- transl. Barnard (1958)
RH Draney
2020-02-05 08:02:16 UTC
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Permalink
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess; in the UK it's
pronounced kicks....r
Richard Heathfield
2020-02-05 08:27:50 UTC
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<snip>
Post by RH Draney
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess; in the UK it's
pronounced kicks....r
True (and particularly evident when there are US contractors on site).
Actually, I think this phenomenon is more common in computing than it
might at first seem.

LOC (for "lines of code") and "lock" are both used.

ISO is common, but I've heard "iso" on a number of sites.

UPS and "ups" (power supply, not the chap at the door with a parcel)

SEO and "sea-oh".

LED and "led".

SOAP and "soap" (about 50/50 mindshare, in my experience)

NIC and "nick".

Some say CAD and some say "cad".

There's GIF and "gif" (and "jif").

Some say DIN and some say "din".

I've heard "[e]yoff" for EOF.

GUI is common, but so is "gooey".

MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)

In the UK, I've occasionally heard SQL pronounced "Squirrel" (especially
in the context of the Microsoft product: "Squirrel Server"), but this is
probably not a commonplace usage.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
RH Draney
2020-02-05 10:52:34 UTC
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Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by RH Draney
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess; in the UK
it's pronounced kicks....r
True (and particularly evident when there are US contractors on site).
Actually, I think this phenomenon is more common in computing than it
might at first seem.
LOC (for "lines of code") and "lock" are both used.
ISO is common, but I've heard "iso" on a number of sites.
UPS and "ups" (power supply, not the chap at the door with a parcel)
SEO and "sea-oh".
LED and "led".
SOAP and "soap" (about 50/50 mindshare, in my experience)
NIC and "nick".
Some say CAD and some say "cad".
There's GIF and "gif" (and "jif").
Some say DIN and some say "din".
I've heard "[e]yoff" for EOF.
GUI is common, but so is "gooey".
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
In the UK, I've occasionally heard SQL pronounced "Squirrel" (especially
in the context of the Microsoft product: "Squirrel Server"), but this is
probably not a commonplace usage.
And of course the Uniform Resource Locator, whose name is Earl....r
Tristan Miller
2020-02-05 12:41:08 UTC
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Greetings.
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
And of course the Uniform Resource Locator, whose name is Earl....r
I came in here to post this one. I used to pronounce "URL" the same as
"earl", and I still sometimes do this, though more often than not I
sound out the letters individually, since it seems most other people
have settled on that.

I wonder if the situation is similar with "URI" (Uniform Resource
Identifier). Does anyone pronounce this like the names "Uri" or "Yuri"?
Or is it always "you are eye"?

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Richard Heathfield
2020-02-05 12:42:53 UTC
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Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by RH Draney
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
And of course the Uniform Resource Locator, whose name is Earl....r
I came in here to post this one. I used to pronounce "URL" the same as
"earl", and I still sometimes do this, though more often than not I
sound out the letters individually, since it seems most other people
have settled on that.
I wonder if the situation is similar with "URI" (Uniform Resource
Identifier). Does anyone pronounce this like the names "Uri" or "Yuri"?
Or is it always "you are eye"?
I? URI.

YMMV.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
John Dunlop
2020-02-05 13:57:36 UTC
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Permalink
...
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by RH Draney
And of course the Uniform Resource Locator, whose name is Earl....r
(Not for Scots, who distinguish "-ur" from "-er". [No, the Grecian urn
joke doesn't work well for us.])
Post by Tristan Miller
I came in here to post this one. I used to pronounce "URL" the same as
"earl", and I still sometimes do this, though more often than not I
sound out the letters individually, since it seems most other people
have settled on that.
I wonder if the situation is similar with "URI" (Uniform Resource
Identifier). Does anyone pronounce this like the names "Uri" or "Yuri"?
Or is it always "you are eye"?
"Yoo-are-eye" for me (who used to have occasion to say it quite often).

And then there's the one that sits above them all: IRI.

As for "XML", I haven't heard anyone pronounce it "zaml".
--
John
Dingbat
2020-02-20 15:31:11 UTC
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Post by John Dunlop
Post by RH Draney
And of course the Uniform Resource Locator, whose name is Earl....r
Not for Scots, who distinguish "-ur" from "-er".
So do Germans - berg vs burg.
What's the difference between kerb and curb in Scots?

FWIW, my "fur" is very different from my "gur" (from Hindi)
but the same as my "fir".
Post by John Dunlop
No, the Grecian urn joke doesn't work well for us.
There's also "-ir": sir, fir and such.
Quinn C
2020-02-05 18:09:27 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
<snip>
Post by RH Draney
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess; in the UK it's
pronounced kicks....r
True (and particularly evident when there are US contractors on site).
Actually, I think this phenomenon is more common in computing than it
might at first seem.
Interesting. I guess you've interacted with a more varied set of
computer people than I.
Post by Richard Heathfield
LOC (for "lines of code") and "lock" are both used.
Not heard either (only "lines of code".)
Post by Richard Heathfield
ISO is common, but I've heard "iso" on a number of sites.
I've heard both, and they're so close you might not even know which one
it was.
Post by Richard Heathfield
UPS and "ups" (power supply, not the chap at the door with a parcel)
Never heard as a word, and I'd find it ridiculous.
Post by Richard Heathfield
SEO and "sea-oh".
Never heard it as a word, and would find it confusing.
Post by Richard Heathfield
LED and "led".
I've heard the as a word version occasionally, but would never adopt it
or expect it to catch on.
Post by Richard Heathfield
SOAP and "soap" (about 50/50 mindshare, in my experience)
Never heard it as letters, always like a word.
Post by Richard Heathfield
NIC and "nick".
Only "network card" for me. I don't know a lot of hardware folks.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Some say CAD and some say "cad".
That one I can confirm.
Post by Richard Heathfield
There's GIF and "gif" (and "jif").
Never as letters.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Some say DIN and some say "din".
I've heard "[e]yoff" for EOF.
Neither, only "end of file".
Post by Richard Heathfield
GUI is common, but so is "gooey".
Yes.
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
Post by Richard Heathfield
In the UK, I've occasionally heard SQL pronounced "Squirrel" (especially
in the context of the Microsoft product: "Squirrel Server"), but this is
probably not a commonplace usage.
I can add CAD, GUI and ISO to my personal list. Within my experience,
all the others are still in the "almost universal agreement" camp.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tristan Miller
2020-02-09 20:33:29 UTC
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Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quinn C
2020-02-10 18:21:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?
RH Draney
2020-02-10 19:47:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Last night I watched a program from 2006 called "Aerial America", this
episode focusing on Arizona's landmarks...one was the aqueduct carrying
water to the cities of Phoenix and Tucson from the Colorado River on the
western edge of the state...the narrator referred it as "The Central
Arizona Project, or CAP", pronouncing the acronym thenceforth like
something you'd wear on your head....

Nobody in this state has ever called the canal anything other than
"see-eigh-pee"....r
Ken Blake
2020-02-10 19:57:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Last night I watched a program from 2006 called "Aerial America", this
episode focusing on Arizona's landmarks...one was the aqueduct carrying
water to the cities of Phoenix and Tucson from the Colorado River on the
western edge of the state...the narrator referred it as "The Central
Arizona Project, or CAP", pronouncing the acronym thenceforth like
something you'd wear on your head....
Nobody in this state has ever called the canal anything other than
"see-eigh-pee"....r
You might be right that treating it as an an acronym is unusual, but you
are not right about "nobody." I've heard it called "CA" many times.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2020-02-10 21:17:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by RH Draney
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Last night I watched a program from 2006 called "Aerial America", this
episode focusing on Arizona's landmarks...one was the aqueduct carrying
water to the cities of Phoenix and Tucson from the Colorado River on the
western edge of the state...the narrator referred it as "The Central
Arizona Project, or CAP", pronouncing the acronym thenceforth like
something you'd wear on your head....
Nobody in this state has ever called the canal anything other than
"see-eigh-pee"....r
You might be right that treating it as an an acronym is unusual, but you
are not right about "nobody." I've heard it called "CA" many times.
Sorry, typo. That's "CAP," not "CA."
--
Ken
Tristan Miller
2020-02-11 12:33:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Curious. Say you wanted to connect to some wireless network with your
laptop or other mobile device, and the administrator sent you an e-mail
along the lines of, "Please send me your device's MAC address so that I
can whitelist it on the router." If you had to read that message aloud,
would you really read "MAC address" as "media access control address"?

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Lewis
2020-02-11 14:17:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Curious. Say you wanted to connect to some wireless network with your
laptop or other mobile device, and the administrator sent you an e-mail
along the lines of, "Please send me your device's MAC address so that I
can whitelist it on the router." If you had to read that message aloud,
would you really read "MAC address" as "media access control address"?
I have never heard anyone *not* say "Mac Address" and I have rarely heard
anyone say "Network Interface Card" instead of "NIC". the only times
I've ever heard anyone say "Media Access control" was to explain what
MAC stood for, and I have heard the incorrect "Machine Access Control"
nearly as often.

If someone asked me for the :Media Access Control address" of my
computer I'd have to think about it for a second before I realized that
1) I was talking to a chatbot and 2) what said chatbot wanted.
--
All things being equal, fat people use more soap.
Quinn C
2020-02-12 18:18:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Quinn C
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Neither for me.
If it's neither "mac" nor "em a cee" for you, then what DO you call it?
"Media Access Control". This is not the only one of the category -
acronyms that are only written. LOC and NIC were others in the same
list.
Curious. Say you wanted to connect to some wireless network with your
laptop or other mobile device, and the administrator sent you an e-mail
along the lines of, "Please send me your device's MAC address so that I
can whitelist it on the router." If you had to read that message aloud,
would you really read "MAC address" as "media access control address"?
I see. No, I say "Mack address", and that's the only way I've heard it.
The problem was that when I looked at the list, I didn't remember that
that's what "Media Access Control" is (actually, officially "medium
access control".)

That brings up a new aspect: Some acronyms might be treated differently
depending on context. It's possible that I'd say "Media Access Control"
when talking about the general concept, because "Mack" on it's own might
be confusing, but in the combination "MAC address", I would always
shorten it.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Garrett Wollman
2020-02-05 18:50:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
LOC (for "lines of code") and "lock" are both used.
/loUk/ ("loke") is the only way I've heard it.
Post by Richard Heathfield
ISO is common, but I've heard "iso" on a number of sites.
/aI Es oU/ sounds very fussy to me; /'aIsoU/ is normal to me, and
universal as a shorthand for the ISO 9660 format for CD-ROMs and other
disk images.
Post by Richard Heathfield
UPS and "ups" (power supply, not the chap at the door with a parcel)
Only every /ju:pi:Es/ IME.
Post by Richard Heathfield
SEO and "sea-oh".
Likewise.
Post by Richard Heathfield
LED and "led".
Ditto.
Post by Richard Heathfield
SOAP and "soap" (about 50/50 mindshare, in my experience)
Always /soUp/.
Post by Richard Heathfield
NIC and "nick".
Agreed.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Some say CAD and some say "cad".
Always /k&d/.
Post by Richard Heathfield
There's GIF and "gif" (and "jif").
Nobody ever says /dZi: aI Ef/ in my hearing. There's a strong dispute
about the initial consonant in the single-syllable version.
Post by Richard Heathfield
Some say DIN and some say "din".
Always /dIn/.
Post by Richard Heathfield
I've heard "[e]yoff" for EOF.
I haven't.
Post by Richard Heathfield
GUI is common, but so is "gooey".
/'gu:i/ is pretty universal here.
Post by Richard Heathfield
MAC and "mac" (for Media Access Control, not Apple boxen)
Always /m&k/.
Post by Richard Heathfield
In the UK, I've occasionally heard SQL pronounced "Squirrel" (especially
in the context of the Microsoft product: "Squirrel Server"), but this is
probably not a commonplace usage.
I say /Es kju El/ but most of my colleagues say /***@l/ -- I've tried
to get people to say /skwil-/ instead but nobody seems to go along.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Peter Moylan
2020-02-05 09:50:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess; in the UK it's
pronounced kicks....r
We also had a CICS in our university department (it was a research
centre), and we pronounced it six.

I remember it well, because (cross-thread alert) once when I gave a talk
on my research the bottom of one of my transparencies said

CICS CICS CICS - the number of the beast.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2020-02-05 14:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
CICS in the United States is pronounced see-eye-see-ess;
Often, but not always.
Post by RH Draney
in the UK it's
pronounced kicks....r
I've heard it pronounced kicks in the US more than once.
--
Ken
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-05 14:27:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
--
If someone has a penis (or we think they have a penis) we use
he/him/his pronouns and treat them like a boy/man. If someone
has a vagina (or we think they have a vagina) we use she/her/
hers pronouns and treat them like a girl/woman.
See what I did there? -- Kyl Myers
the geek celebration thread.
b***@aol.com
2020-02-05 18:26:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
OT: that pronunciation had better be avoided with Arabic-speakers, as
it's similar to that of "zamil", which is a common verbal abuse for
"gay".
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
--
If someone has a penis (or we think they have a penis) we use
he/him/his pronouns and treat them like a boy/man. If someone
has a vagina (or we think they have a vagina) we use she/her/
hers pronouns and treat them like a girl/woman.
See what I did there? -- Kyl Myers
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-02-06 16:09:38 UTC
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Permalink
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
If I heard /z&ml/ I'd have no doubt that we were talking about XAML.
With an 'A'.
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
'CICS' is not in my immediate sphere of interest, but I believe I have
heard it both as word and as separate letters. 'url' likewise.
I'm sure there are others.

'char' is not an acronym, but has almost universal non-agreement.

/Anders, Denmark.
Tristan Miller
2020-02-07 12:54:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings.
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
been a long time since I heard anyone pronounce it at all. (Fun fact:
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)

Another contentious case, though not quite in the same way as your XML
and SQL examples, is OS X. The "X" is properly a roman numeral, and so
the whole thing should be pronounced as "oh ess ten". But I've heard
plenty of folks, including many Apple fanboys who ought to know better,
unironically say "oh ess eks". The point is now mostly moot as Apple
recently renamed the system to macOS. (Or maybe not... I wouldn't be
surprised if the next generation of fanboys pronounces it to rhyme with
"wackos".)

Stretching the topic even farther, I'll wager that the pronunciation of
VIC (as in the MOS Technology Video Interface Chip and its successors)
was split between initialists and non-initialists, albeit across
different languages. In English everyone just said /vɪk/, like the name
"Vic". But for German speakers, sounding out the name as a word would
result in /fɪk/, like the German work "fick" meaning "fuck", so I bet
they all just said /faʊ̯ iː t͡seː/ instead. (Commodore avoided the
problem altogether with their VIC-20 computer, which is named after the
VIC chip inside, by rebranding it as the VC-20 in Germany.)

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-07 13:39:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
[ … ]
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
The Centro de Estudios Científicos del Sur, or CECS (pronounced, not by
accident, as [seks]) was originally called the Centro de Estudios
Científicos de Santiago, but they changed what the S stood for when the
moved to Valdivia. The present web site writes it as s, suggesting
feebly that it just makes the C plural.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-07 15:11:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
[ … ]
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy".  In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
The Centro de Estudios Científicos del Sur, or CECS (pronounced, not by
accident, as [seks]) was originally called the Centro de Estudios
Científicos de Santiago, but they changed what the S stood for when the
moved to Valdivia. The present web site writes it as s, suggesting
feebly that it just makes the C plural.
Which of course would actually be written CECC.
--
Jerry Friedman in the EE.UU.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-07 16:07:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
[ … ]
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy".  In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
The Centro de Estudios Científicos del Sur, or CECS (pronounced, not by
accident, as [seks]) was originally called the Centro de Estudios
Científicos de Santiago, but they changed what the S stood for when the
moved to Valdivia. The present web site writes it as s, suggesting
feebly that it just makes the C plural.
Which of course would actually be written CECC.
They're not always consistent about that. Buenos Aires is usually Bs As
rather than BB AA. On the other hand ferrocarriles is FF CC, and USA is
EE UU de N A.
--
athel
Quinn C
2020-02-07 19:00:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The Centro de Estudios Científicos del Sur, or CECS (pronounced, not by
accident, as [seks])
In German, I couldn't resist reading it as "Keks", cookie (incidentally,
a loanword < English "cakes".)
--
In the old days, the complaints about the passing of the
golden age were much more sophisticated.
-- James Hogg in alt.usage.english
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 21:53:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 19:00:42 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The Centro de Estudios Científicos del Sur, or CECS (pronounced, not by
accident, as [seks])
In German, I couldn't resist reading it as "Keks", cookie
(incidentally,
Post by Quinn C
a loanword < English "cakes".)
AUI in UKE Kecks is a slang word for [under]pants; seemingly its
a brand of shortjohns (I just made that name up):

https://kecksunderwear.com/

but be aware the web page is full of hipster scripting scrolling
webjiggery.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tak To
2020-02-07 17:43:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
[...]
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
Another contentious case, though not quite in the same way as your XML
and SQL examples, is OS X. The "X" is properly a roman numeral, and so
the whole thing should be pronounced as "oh ess ten". But I've heard
plenty of folks, including many Apple fanboys who ought to know better,
unironically say "oh ess eks". The point is now mostly moot as Apple
recently renamed the system to macOS. (Or maybe not... I wouldn't be
surprised if the next generation of fanboys pronounces it to rhyme with
"wackos".)
I remember the Apple IIe being pronounced as the Apple
Eye-Eye-Yee in a Super Bowl(?) commercial.
Post by Tristan Miller
Stretching the topic even farther, I'll wager that the pronunciation of
VIC (as in the MOS Technology Video Interface Chip and its successors)
was split between initialists and non-initialists, albeit across
different languages. In English everyone just said /vɪk/, like the name
"Vic". But for German speakers, sounding out the name as a word would
result in /fɪk/, like the German work "fick" meaning "fuck", so I bet
they all just said /faʊ̯ iː t͡seː/ instead. (Commodore avoided the
problem altogether with their VIC-20 computer, which is named after the
VIC chip inside, by rebranding it as the VC-20 in Germany.)
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2020-02-07 19:00:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
Tristan Miller
2020-02-07 20:48:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well. I've been living in German-speaking
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any offensive
or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".

I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it might
be seen as cute. Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,
claymation) character by the name of Berk?

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Katy Jennison
2020-02-07 21:55:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in German-speaking
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any offensive
or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it might
be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,
claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one. You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
--
Katy Jennison
Tak To
2020-02-08 01:54:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in German-speaking
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any offensive
or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it might
be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,
claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one. You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
I only know Wallace and Gromit.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tristan Miller
2020-02-08 07:16:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in German-speaking
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any
offensive or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it
might be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,
claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one.  You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
I did some brain-wracking and found this:



This is an animated British TV series from 1984. The lead character is
a cute blue monster named Berk. (You can hear his name spoken in the
first minute of the first episode.)

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-08 07:19:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in German-speaking
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any
offensive or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it
might be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,
claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one.  You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
http://youtu.be/f-dapSswWTQ
This is an animated British TV series from 1984. The lead character is
a cute blue monster named Berk. (You can hear his name spoken in the
first minute of the first episode.)
I don't think "berk" got any traction in North American variations
of English.

bill
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-08 08:02:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in German-speaking>
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't think of any> >>
offensive or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it> >>
might be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon (well,>
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one.  You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
http://youtu.be/f-dapSswWTQ
This is an animated British TV series from 1984. The lead character
is> a cute blue monster named Berk. (You can hear his name spoken in
the> first minute of the first episode.)
I don't think "berk" got any traction in North American variations
of English.
Do they do rhyming slang in North American variations of English?
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-08 19:57:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by b***@shaw.ca
I don't think "berk" got any traction in North American variations
of English.
Do they do rhyming slang in North American variations of English?
Not in the variations I'm familiar with. That doesn't rule out
rhyming slang in the variations I'm not familiar with.

bill
Katy Jennison
2020-02-08 12:46:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well.  I've been living in
German-speaking countries for about 11 years but offhand I can't
think of any offensive or awkward meaning evoked by "Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again it
might be seen as cute.  Isn't there a famous children's cartoon
(well, claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one.  You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
http://youtu.be/f-dapSswWTQ
This is an animated British TV series from 1984.  The lead character is
a cute blue monster named Berk.  (You can hear his name spoken in the
first minute of the first episode.)
Interesting. I see that several of the characters, including 'Berk',
were voiced by Willie Rushton. Wkip says "Although the emphasis was on
humour and the show was marketed as a children's programme, it drew much
from horror and dark fantasy. The show has since become a cult favourite
and remains one of the most widely recognised family entertainment shows
of the 1980s." I have to admit I'd never heard of it.

Presumably the creators supposed that the youthful intended audience
would never have met the word 'berk' in its rhyming slang sense. Even
so, I'd have picked a different name. Or perhaps they intended a
knowing wink to the adult also-watchers.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2020-02-08 23:30:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tristan Miller
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled
with a number of fonts. One of the font was called
"Berkeley". Due to the low resolution of the display
(320x200) we had to shorten the names in the font menu so
"Berkeley" became "Berk". The translation firm we hired for
localization told us that it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
Yeah, colour me confused as well. I've been living in
German-speaking countries for about 11 years but offhand I
can't think of any offensive or awkward meaning evoked by
"Berk".
I can also see how it may be a no-no in Britain, but then again
it might be seen as cute. Isn't there a famous children's
cartoon (well, claymation) character by the name of Berk?
I can't think of one. You're not perhaps thinking of Morph?
http://youtu.be/f-dapSswWTQ
This is an animated British TV series from 1984. The lead character
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tristan Miller
is a cute blue monster named Berk. (You can hear his name spoken
in the first minute of the first episode.)
Interesting. I see that several of the characters, including 'Berk',
were voiced by Willie Rushton. Wkip says "Although the emphasis was
on humour and the show was marketed as a children's programme, it
drew much from horror and dark fantasy. The show has since become a
cult favourite and remains one of the most widely recognised family
entertainment shows of the 1980s." I have to admit I'd never heard
of it.
Presumably the creators supposed that the youthful intended audience
would never have met the word 'berk' in its rhyming slang sense.
Even so, I'd have picked a different name. Or perhaps they intended
a knowing wink to the adult also-watchers.
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close thing.

I see that she's actually named after a tree (birch).
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-09 07:59:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close thing.
Did you feel entertained by her? For me Jörk would be more appropriate
than Börk.
Post by Peter Moylan
I see that she's actually named after a tree (birch).
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2020-02-09 09:38:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close
thing.
Did you feel entertained by her? For me Jörk would be more
appropriate than Börk.
To answer that I had to go to my other computer - the one that has sound
- to sample a few YouTube videos. I didn't find one that I recognised,
and I didn't find one that I liked.

In fact I don't know much about her. I have the impression that she's a
good singer with lousy songwriters.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2020-02-09 10:40:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close
thing.
Did you feel entertained by her? For me Jörk would be more
appropriate than Börk.
To answer that I had to go to my other computer - the one that has sound
- to sample a few YouTube videos. I didn't find one that I recognised,
and I didn't find one that I liked.
In fact I don't know much about her. I have the impression that she's a
good singer with lousy songwriters.
Actually, she's her own songwriter...the song that may be the most
accessible for beginners is called "Big Time Sensuality"....r
Quinn C
2020-02-10 18:21:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close thing.
Did you feel entertained by her? For me Jörk would be more
appropriate than Börk.
To answer that I had to go to my other computer - the one that has sound
- to sample a few YouTube videos. I didn't find one that I recognised,
and I didn't find one that I liked.
In fact I don't know much about her. I have the impression that she's a
good singer with lousy songwriters.
Actually, she's her own songwriter...the song that may be the most
accessible for beginners is called "Big Time Sensuality"....r
I'm a fan, and I hardly remember that one.

To my classically trained ears, her music is clearly a cut above most
"popular" music. Also very diverse.

I guess the one that caught me first was the ballad Venus as a Boy:


"Bachelorette" tickles my classical sensibilities:


"It's oh so quiet" may be an easy entry point for people who were young
in the 1960s:


She's done regular jazz singing:

--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in, Sir?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
RH Draney
2020-02-10 19:52:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Actually, she's her own songwriter...the song that may be the most
accessible for beginners is called "Big Time Sensuality"....r
I'm a fan, and I hardly remember that one.
To my classically trained ears, her music is clearly a cut above most
"popular" music. Also very diverse.
http://youtu.be/7Z5aPaDwAkU
http://youtu.be/mZEWtivQTTg
"It's oh so quiet" may be an easy entry point for people who were young
http://youtu.be/htobTBlCvUU
http://youtu.be/tGAoRge3ODg
I featured her once back when I was making lolcat memes:

https://cheezburger.com/1979012352

....r
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-10 21:40:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close thing.
Did you feel entertained by her? For me Jörk would be more
appropriate than Börk.
To answer that I had to go to my other computer - the one that has sound
- to sample a few YouTube videos. I didn't find one that I recognised,
and I didn't find one that I liked.
In fact I don't know much about her. I have the impression that she's a
good singer with lousy songwriters.
Actually, she's her own songwriter...the song that may be the most
accessible for beginners is called "Big Time Sensuality"....r
I'm a fan, and I hardly remember that one.
To my classically trained ears, her music is clearly a cut above most
"popular" music. Also very diverse.
http://youtu.be/7Z5aPaDwAkU
http://youtu.be/mZEWtivQTTg
"It's oh so quiet" may be an easy entry point for people who were young
http://youtu.be/htobTBlCvUU
http://youtu.be/tGAoRge3ODg
Like when "Lady Gaga," fairly fresh off the duets with Tony Bennett album,
did the tribute to Julie Andrews at the 2015 Oscars (50th anniversary of
Sound of Music) and it turned out she was a very good singer and had no
need of relying on more and more vulgar gimmicks.
RH Draney
2020-02-11 06:14:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Like when "Lady Gaga," fairly fresh off the duets with Tony Bennett album,
did the tribute to Julie Andrews at the 2015 Oscars (50th anniversary of
Sound of Music) and it turned out she was a very good singer and had no
need of relying on more and more vulgar gimmicks.
Joanna Wang seems to be moving in the other direction...when I first
heard of her, she was described as sounding like Norah Jones, and
recorded similar material (standards, mostly)...after deciding that this
didn't reflect her personality, she became "Chicken Joanna", and later
"ALFERD PACKER" (caps hers) and does genuinely quirky stuff....

Here's "classic Joanna":



And here's one of her more recent videos:



Her voice still sounds like Jones, but with an agility Ravi's girl could
never match (think Annie Ross for comparison)....r
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-09 16:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Feb 2020 10:30:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
This thread keeps reminding me of the entertainer called Björk. Of
course the 'j' stops her from being a berk, but it's a close thing.
I see that she's actually named after a tree (birch).
In the UK the "ör" in her name is frequently spoken as "or" (as in
"for", "order", etc.).

I think this is a matter of politeness because the original
pronunciation of her name sounds, to English ears[1], like an expression
of disgust - possible worse than "yuck".

[1] I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
David Kleinecke
2020-02-09 17:50:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.

People tend to forget that language has two ends.
Quinn C
2020-02-10 18:21:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it comes to
music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.

Put another way, we don't conventionally understand "English-listening"
as referring to the native tongue of the person listening. But this
conversation shows that we could use a word for that.
--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in, Sir?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
CDB
2020-02-10 19:15:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it comes
to music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
David Kleinecke
2020-02-10 22:52:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it comes
to music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
RH Draney
2020-02-11 06:15:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-12 19:46:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-12 20:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
The quality of Mercia is not strained.

bill
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-12 20:20:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the
person listening. But this conversation shows that we could use
a word for that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
The quality of Mercia is not strained.
I'd offa a better pun, but god, ever yone else will then pile on with
their own kant.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2020-02-12 23:34:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
b***@aol.com
2020-02-13 01:50:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
Post by Quinn C
--
Novels and romances ... when habitually indulged in, exert a
disastrous influence on the nervous system, sufficient to explain
that frequency of hysteria and nervous disease which we find
among the highest classes. -- E.J. Tilt
b***@shaw.ca
2020-02-13 05:54:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?

bill
CDB
2020-02-13 11:57:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue
of the person listening. But this conversation shows
that we could use a word for that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r>>>>
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Didnae they wear kelts?
musika
2020-02-13 14:31:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue
of the person listening. But this conversation shows
that we could use a word for that.
Why not "anglophone"?  A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r>>>>
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Didnae they wear kelts?
Oi!
--
Ray
UK
CDB
2020-02-13 17:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native
tongue of the person listening. But this
conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r>>>>
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Didnae they wear kelts?
Oi!
If that's for "didnae they" instead of "Did they no", I suppose it's a
fair thingy. "Kelts" is how a Scottish pronunciation (prefigured by the
"didnae") of the garment's name sounds to me.

If it's the "s", kindly note that they adorned a plural subject.
musika
2020-02-13 19:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
 "English-listening" as referring to the native
tongue of the person listening. But this
conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"?  A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r>>>>
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Didnae they wear kelts?
Oi!
If that's for "didnae they" instead of "Did they no", I suppose it's a
fair thingy.  "Kelts" is how a Scottish pronunciation (prefigured by the
"didnae") of the garment's name sounds to me.
If it's the "s", kindly note that they adorned a plural subject.
No, it's a nod to "keltoi".
Otherwise it would have been Oy!
--
Ray
UK
CDB
2020-02-15 14:38:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally
understand "English-listening" as referring to
the native tongue of the person listening. But
this conversation shows that we could use a
word for that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r>>>>
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Didnae they wear kelts?
Oi!
If that's for "didnae they" instead of "Did they no", I suppose
it's a fair thingy. "Kelts" is how a Scottish pronunciation
(prefigured by the "didnae") of the garment's name sounds to me.
If it's the "s", kindly note that they adorned a plural subject.
No, it's a nod to "keltoi". Otherwise it would have been Oy!
Did Boadicea divert herself in hours of peace with a Kelttoi?
b***@aol.com
2020-02-13 16:16:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
They were great, if dogged.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
bill
Quinn C
2020-02-13 17:52:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
What did Danes look like? Could you depict one?
Was it them who depicted Scotland?
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-02-19 21:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
Isn't he Swede?
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-19 21:33:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
Isn't he Swede?
Nor way to tell.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-20 10:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
Isn't he Swede?
Are you all going to Finnish at some point?
--
athel
Quinn C
2020-02-20 17:55:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the person
listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a word for
that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Does saxophone mean Saxon-speaking?...r
That's an interesting angle on it.
And if jute look into it a bit further?
But will he Dane to?
Isn't he Swede?
Are you all going to Finnish at some point?
This may go on until Ural over the hill.
--
No automatic weapons for him this trip, anyway. No weapons at
all, but for his wits. They seemed a meager arsenal, just at
the moment.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Diplomatic Immunity
CDB
2020-02-11 12:20:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it
comes to music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand
"English-listening" as referring to the native tongue of the
person listening. But this conversation shows that we could use a
word for that.
Why not "anglophone"? A phone has two ends too.
Because anglophone means English-speaking.
Merriam-Webster:

"consisting of or belonging to an English-speaking population especially
in a country where two or more languages are spoken"

Anglophone ears belong to an English-speaking population. I think Peter
could have written "English-speakers' ears" without fear or reproach.
b***@aol.com
2020-02-10 19:36:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it comes to
music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand "English-listening"
as referring to the native tongue of the person listening. But this
conversation shows that we could use a word for that.
Then just "native English-listening ears"? ("Native-English listeners"
doesn't seem to be uncommon.)
Post by Quinn C
--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in, Sir?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
David Kleinecke
2020-02-10 22:50:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I nearly wrote "English-speaking ears" which would have been
understood but is somewhat illogical.
That would be English-listening ears.
People tend to forget that language has two ends.
But there are many English-listening ears, especially when it comes to
music, who don't belong to (native) English speakers.
Put another way, we don't conventionally understand "English-listening"
as referring to the native tongue of the person listening. But this
conversation shows that we could use a word for that.
So I coined one.

I think it is possible to be X-listening but not X-speaking in any
language X. The converse IMO happens only when deafness is involved.
Tak To
2020-02-08 01:50:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
The information was related to the development team through our
sales representative in UK (who hired the translation firm) and
the president of the company. The latter probably misunderstood
the former.

Is "Berk" really a problem in UK?
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-08 02:17:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
The information was related to the development team through our
sales representative in UK (who hired the translation firm) and
the president of the company. The latter probably misunderstood
the former.
Is "Berk" really a problem in UK?
Supposed to be rhyming slang from Berkeley Hunt[1].

[1] For an explanation of that, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Hunt
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-08 08:07:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts. One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
The information was related to the development team through our
sales representative in UK (who hired the translation firm) and
the president of the company. The latter probably misunderstood
the former.
Is "Berk" really a problem in UK?
It nearly got me punched in the face once in Balsall Heath (not a
classy area of Birmingham). I had just pulled up at a petrol station,
and some one who arrived after me grabbed the pump before I could. I
mouthed "berk" at him and he wasn't pleased. He asked me if I had
called him a berk. Being cowardly (he was a tough-looking guy) I said
"no", and the incident ended there.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2020-02-08 12:38:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
I worked on an early PC graphics program that was bundled with
a number of fonts.  One of the font was called "Berkeley".
Due to the low resolution of the display (320x200) we had to
shorten the names in the font menu so "Berkeley" became "Berk".
The translation firm we hired for localization told us that
it was a no-no in German.
I can see how that may be a no-no in Britain, but in German? No idea.
The information was related to the development team through our
sales representative in UK (who hired the translation firm) and
the president of the company.  The latter probably misunderstood
the former.
Is "Berk" really a problem in UK?
It nearly got me punched in the face once in Balsall Heath (not a classy
area of Birmingham). I had just pulled up at a petrol station, and some
one who arrived after me grabbed the pump before I could. I mouthed
"berk" at him and he wasn't pleased. He asked me if I had called him a
berk. Being cowardly (he was a tough-looking guy) I said "no", and the
incident ended there.
I'd have said that 'berk' was a relatively mild term, such that if you
said "So-and-so's a such a berk!" it wouldn't be much worse than saying
they were a prat. But I can see how that might not apply in the above case.

To answer Tak To's question, naming a product 'Berk' in the UK would be
unwise, unless getting the name shared on Twitter along with rude or
ribald or comic comments was part of your publicity department's
deliberate strategy.
--
Katy Jennison
Quinn C
2020-02-07 19:00:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
Greetings.
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell), but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
I can't comment because when I had reason to say that, I was still
living my life in German. In German, the issue exists as well - some
people were spelling it out, some were rhyming it with Stasi. I heard
rumors that it was a short vowel in English.
Post by Tristan Miller
Stretching the topic even farther, I'll wager that the pronunciation of
VIC (as in the MOS Technology Video Interface Chip and its successors)
was split between initialists and non-initialists, albeit across
different languages. In English everyone just said /vɪk/, like the name
"Vic". But for German speakers, sounding out the name as a word would
result in /fɪk/, like the German work "fick" meaning "fuck", so I bet
they all just said /faʊ̯ iː t͡seː/ instead. (Commodore avoided the
problem altogether with their VIC-20 computer, which is named after the
VIC chip inside, by rebranding it as the VC-20 in Germany.)
Well, for some German speakers, I guess. In Standard German, I expect
pronunciation with /v/, as in Victor or Vicky or Video. And those
speakers who tend to use /f/ more often have no qualms calling the big
food market in the middle of Munich "Fiktualienmarkt", turning victuals
into fuck-tuals.

But I guess just being an opportunity for immature jokes can be enough
to kill a brand name.
--
But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152
Tristan Miller
2020-02-07 20:42:28 UTC
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Greetings.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tristan Miller
Stretching the topic even farther, I'll wager that the pronunciation of
VIC (as in the MOS Technology Video Interface Chip and its successors)
was split between initialists and non-initialists, albeit across
different languages. In English everyone just said /vɪk/, like the name
"Vic". But for German speakers, sounding out the name as a word would
result in /fɪk/, like the German work "fick" meaning "fuck", so I bet
they all just said /faʊ̯ iː t͡seː/ instead. (Commodore avoided the
problem altogether with their VIC-20 computer, which is named after the
VIC chip inside, by rebranding it as the VC-20 in Germany.)
Well, for some German speakers, I guess. In Standard German, I expect
pronunciation with /v/, as in Victor or Vicky or Video.
As a general rule, word-initial <v> is pronounced as /f/ in German, but
exceptions are made for words of foreign origin, and I think pretty much
all words beginning <Vi> or <vi>, followed by a consonant, are of
foreign origin. (Leastaways, I can't think of any counterexamples.
Your examples are all from Greek or Latin and so start with /vɪ/.) The
question is, when a German encounters the acronym VIC for the first
time, possibly not knowing what it stands for, does he treat it as a
native word or a foreign word?

Commodore wasn't the only company facing this dilemma. The American
pharmaceutical company Vicks is known as Wick in Germany, again to avoid
the possibility of anyone pronouncing it as /fɪks/ (an inflected form of
the noun Fick, meaning "fuck").

Regards,
Tristan
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Tristan Miller
Free Software developer, ferret herder, logologist
https://logological.org/
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Stefan Ram
2020-02-07 22:17:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tristan Miller
question is, when a German encounters the acronym VIC for the first
(Warning: indecent words might appear below)

In autumn 1980 I was working as a computer salesman at a
German Commodore dealer. I can confirm that my boss told
me that the Commodore "VIC 20" was named "VC 20" to avoid
any confusion with the dirty German word at that time.

On the other hand, there was an office of a company named
"Sandvik" in Berlin, and, moreover, "F*ck" (* = i) is a
common German surname. For example, everyone knows the book
"Einführung in die Grundlagen der Quantentheorie", written
by Eugen F. (F. = the word mentioned before [using an asterisk]).

There is also a famous medicine called "Wick Vaporub", and
I pronounce "Wick" just as I would pronounce "VIC". Therefore,
I believe few would really be disturbed by "VIC" - even quite
prude persons, and Commodore was just a little bit too careful.
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-18 22:35:48 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tristan Miller
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
And the predecessor protocol was pronounced "sassy", wasn't it?
(Shugart Associates Storage Interface).

There was also IPI, which was from Siemens or someone Offshore, IIRC.
I never heard it said except as initials.
Not that I heard it often at all --
we (the "we" I was part of in 1988) had to support it,
but it wasn't common outside of mainframes,
which we were trying to not-quite-be (while being fault-tolerant).
And I'm not sure if the other person listing IPI was referring to storage
or to some other usage.

/dps
Garrett Wollman
2020-02-19 05:36:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tristan Miller
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
And the predecessor protocol was pronounced "sassy", wasn't it?
(Shugart Associates Storage Interface).
There used to be a lot of these. There was ESDI ("enhanced small disk
interface"), SMD ("storage module device") for 14-inch minicomputer
drives, ST-506 (a Shugart Technology, now Seagate, interface) and its
updated variant, ST-412, and of course IDE ("integrated drive
electronics") which put most of the old ST-412 controller electronics
into the drive itself, making the rump "controller" a much simpler
device to intermediate access to the system bus. The ST-506 was based
on the earlier SA1000 interface, which was a Shugart Associates
product. (Same dude, what we'd now call a "serial entrepreneur".)
When IBM chose the cheaper ST-506 to be the standard hard drive in the
PC/XT, it set back the acceptance of SCSI by decades.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Quinn C
2020-02-19 13:49:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tristan Miller
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
And the predecessor protocol was pronounced "sassy", wasn't it?
(Shugart Associates Storage Interface).
There used to be a lot of these. There was ESDI ("enhanced small disk
interface"), SMD ("storage module device") for 14-inch minicomputer
drives, ST-506 (a Shugart Technology, now Seagate, interface) and its
updated variant, ST-412, and of course IDE ("integrated drive
electronics") which put most of the old ST-412 controller electronics
into the drive itself, making the rump "controller" a much simpler
device to intermediate access to the system bus. The ST-506 was based
on the earlier SA1000 interface, which was a Shugart Associates
product. (Same dude, what we'd now call a "serial entrepreneur".)
When IBM chose the cheaper ST-506 to be the standard hard drive in the
PC/XT, it set back the acceptance of SCSI by decades.
My Atari TT had a VMEbus, for which I never had anything to plug into.
Or maybe one thing? Memory getting fuzzy. From what I hear, that one was
used in industrial control applications much more than pure computing
ones. It used to be VERSA, but they gave up on pronounceability.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
RH Draney
2020-02-19 07:24:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tristan Miller
I was going to suggest SCSI, though it's been a long time since I heard
anyone pronounce it like anything other than "scuzzy". In fact, it's
Larry Boucher, the originator of SCSI, intended for it to be pronounced
as "sexy".)
And the predecessor protocol was pronounced "sassy", wasn't it?
(Shugart Associates Storage Interface).
There was also IPI, which was from Siemens or someone Offshore, IIRC.
I never heard it said except as initials.
Not that I heard it often at all --
we (the "we" I was part of in 1988) had to support it,
but it wasn't common outside of mainframes,
which we were trying to not-quite-be (while being fault-tolerant).
And I'm not sure if the other person listing IPI was referring to storage
or to some other usage.
Any stories about acronyms that would have been pronounceable but nobody
ever did so?...we had the Time Sharing Option, but it was always
"tee-ess-oh" (and before you tell me that "tso" is not pronounceable as
a word, think about that Chinese general with the chicken dish named
after him)....

My best recollection involves IBM system manuals...there was POPS, the
"Principles of Operation", and after that every language, feature and
subsystem was supplied with both a User's Guide and a Reference Manual
(each with its own sort of focus on the subject matter)...the Job Entry
Subsystem User's Guide was JESUG, Fortran Language Reference Manual was
FLRM, etc, and when these collections of letters could be spoken as a
word instead of a string of letters, this was done....

The lone exception concerned the System Product Interpreter, IBM's
designation for Rexx...the initials for the System Product Interpreter
Reference Manual were carefully avoided; it was always the "Rexx
Manual"....r
Peter Moylan
2020-02-19 12:18:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
My best recollection involves IBM system manuals...there was POPS,
the "Principles of Operation", and after that every language, feature
and subsystem was supplied with both a User's Guide and a Reference
Manual (each with its own sort of focus on the subject matter)...the
Job Entry Subsystem User's Guide was JESUG, Fortran Language
Reference Manual was FLRM, etc, and when these collections of letters
could be spoken as a word instead of a string of letters, this was
done....
The lone exception concerned the System Product Interpreter, IBM's
designation for Rexx...the initials for the System Product
Interpreter Reference Manual were carefully avoided; it was always
the "Rexx Manual"....r
I think there's still a utility somewhere on my computer that allows
tracing a Rexx script and inspecting variables. I'm now wondering why we
never got around to calling it Inspector Rexx.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2020-02-19 17:27:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Any stories about acronyms that would have been pronounceable but nobody
ever did so?...we had the Time Sharing Option, but it was always
"tee-ess-oh" (and before you tell me that "tso" is not pronounceable as
a word, think about that Chinese general with the chicken dish named
after him)....
I'm more interested in why he's almost universally "Tao" in Canada - at
least in Montreal.
--
The bee must not pass judgment on the hive. (Voxish proverb)
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.125
Ken Blake
2020-02-19 19:54:44 UTC
Reply
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Post by RH Draney
Any stories about acronyms that would have been pronounceable but nobody
ever did so?...we had the Time Sharing Option, but it was always
"tee-ess-oh" (and before you tell me that "tso" is not pronounceable as
a word, think about that Chinese general with the chicken dish named
after him)....
In my experience, with an occasional exception, only abbreviations that
are four or more letters long are treated as acronyms.
--
Ken
Garrett Wollman
2020-02-19 22:49:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
In my experience, with an occasional exception, only abbreviations that
are four or more letters long are treated as acronyms.
Not my experience.

PAN/CAN/LAN/MAN/WAN
BOS/VOS/DOS/LOS
MAC (mentioned upthread already)
PHY, ACK/NAK (not initialisms)
SQL (for many people)

If it's pronounceable, some people will.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Ken Blake
2020-02-19 23:42:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Ken Blake
In my experience, with an occasional exception, only abbreviations that
are four or more letters long are treated as acronyms.
Not my experience.
As I said, with an occasional exception.
Post by Garrett Wollman
PAN/CAN/LAN/MAN/WAN
Yes, LAN and WAN are exceptions. I'm not familiar with the others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
BOS/VOS/DOS/LOS
Back in my mainframe days, DOS was always pronounced dee-oh-ess. But I'm
aware that many people say DOSS these days. I'm not familiar with the
others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
MAC (mentioned upthread already)
PHY, ACK/NAK (not initialisms)
SQL (for many people)
I'm aware that some people say sequel, but that's always been a stretch,
as far as I'm concerned. I've always said ess-kew-ell.
Post by Garrett Wollman
If it's pronounceable, some people will.
Absolutely right!
--
Ken
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-20 11:04:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Ken Blake
In my experience, with an occasional exception, only abbreviations that
are four or more letters long are treated as acronyms.
Not my experience.
As I said, with an occasional exception.
Post by Garrett Wollman
PAN/CAN/LAN/MAN/WAN
Yes, LAN and WAN are exceptions. I'm not familiar with the others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
BOS/VOS/DOS/LOS
Back in my mainframe days, DOS was always pronounced dee-oh-ess. But I'm
aware that many people say DOSS these days. I'm not familiar with the
others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
MAC (mentioned upthread already)
PHY, ACK/NAK (not initialisms)
SQL (for many people)
I'm aware that some people say sequel, but that's always been a stretch,
as far as I'm concerned. I've always said ess-kew-ell.
+1

I wouldn't consider SQL to be an acronym when spoken as "sequel".

It might be closer to an acronym if spoken as "skwul" with an indistinct
"u".
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Garrett Wollman
If it's pronounceable, some people will.
Absolutely right!
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
RH Draney
2020-02-20 13:51:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Garrett Wollman
SQL (for many people)
I'm aware that some people say sequel, but that's always been a stretch,
as far as I'm concerned. I've always said ess-kew-ell.
+1
I wouldn't consider SQL to be an acronym when spoken as "sequel".
It might be closer to an acronym if spoken as "skwul" with an indistinct
"u".
How about Arizona's incarnation of Medicare, the Arizona Health Care
Cost Containment System, or AHCCCS, universally spoken as "access"?...

(My old employer came up with File Services Input Handler, or "fsih",
pronounced "fish")....r
Richard Heathfield
2020-02-20 16:41:03 UTC
Reply
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On 20/02/2020 13:51, RH Draney wrote:
<snip>
Post by RH Draney
How about Arizona's incarnation of Medicare, the Arizona Health Care
Cost Containment System, or AHCCCS, universally spoken as "access"?...
(My old employer came up with File Services Input Handler, or "fsih",
pronounced "fish")....r
During Y2K preps I realised we could save the customer £1XX,XXX by
writing a small, simple, from-the-ground-up tool instead of buying a
dozen licences for a big, complicated tool that wasn't written with Y2K
in mind.

We needed a name. Since it was my idea, I was given that task.

I came up with a name. It was a short but highly relevant name that
described the function of the program with some precision and even
incorporated the names of the contractor (to which I was subcontracted)
and of our subteam.

I submitted the name to the project manager, taking care to inform him
that the name was not 100% my idea; I'd asked for comments from the rest
of my team and had adopted two suggested changes.

He read the name.

He nodded. Good name. He liked that I'd managed to squeeze the name of
his employer (the subcontractor) into it. Good for future business.

Then he worked it out, and exploded with laughter.

It wasn't actually all that funny. It was a six-letter word that used
all the letters from "organism" except for the 'n' and the 'i'. You sort
of had to be there, really - imagining suits reading the expansion at
face value and never spotting the acronym.

"You can't call it that!"

"Sorry," said I.

"So am I," he said.

I came up with a different and much more pedestrian name.

The different and much more pedestrian name was adopted, and I thought
no more about it.

Two weeks later, however, the project manager came back from a meeting
at which he'd discussed the program with the customer and with other
contractors who, I now learned, would also be using it.

He reported their somewhat lukewarm reaction to the different and much
more pedestrian name: "A chap from the customer team said, `It's rather
a dull name; surely they could have come up with a better name than
that?' So I told him: `They did!'"
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Stefan Ram
2020-02-20 17:01:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
It wasn't actually all that funny. It was a six-letter word that used
all the letters from "organism" except for the 'n' and the 'i'. You sort
of had to be there, really - imagining suits reading the expansion at
face value and never spotting the acronym.
A former boss told me that what he was doing is called

High Energy Resolution Photon Emission Spectroscopy

, but for some reason people did not like to use the acronym.
Ken Blake
2020-02-20 15:50:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Ken Blake
In my experience, with an occasional exception, only abbreviations that
are four or more letters long are treated as acronyms.
Not my experience.
As I said, with an occasional exception.
Post by Garrett Wollman
PAN/CAN/LAN/MAN/WAN
Yes, LAN and WAN are exceptions. I'm not familiar with the others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
BOS/VOS/DOS/LOS
Back in my mainframe days, DOS was always pronounced dee-oh-ess. But I'm
aware that many people say DOSS these days. I'm not familiar with the
others.
Post by Garrett Wollman
MAC (mentioned upthread already)
PHY, ACK/NAK (not initialisms)
SQL (for many people)
I'm aware that some people say sequel, but that's always been a stretch,
as far as I'm concerned. I've always said ess-kew-ell.
+1
I wouldn't consider SQL to be an acronym when spoken as "sequel".
Yes, as I said, it's a stretch.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It might be closer to an acronym if spoken as "skwul" with an indistinct
"u".
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Garrett Wollman
If it's pronounceable, some people will.
Absolutely right!
--
Ken
Tak To
2020-02-07 17:42:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell),
Those of us who knew about SEQUEL (a precursor of SQL) would
probably say ess-cue-ell. Similarly for CSQL users, I suppose.
but I'm not aware of any other major computer-related
acronym where there isn't almost universal agreement in this matter.
Why, there are so many, and I was just making a list at the
margin...
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2020-02-07 19:00:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
A new colleague pronounced XML (the markup format) as /z&ml/. When I
pointed out I had never heard it said that way, he explained why he
would say the letter x as /z/. Not my point, but we didn't have time to
go into this further.
Point is, I've never heard anyone trying to say "xml" as a word instead
of as separate letters. Have any of the readers here encountered this?
The one where famously both reading styles are in use is SQL (sequel or
ess-kyu-ell),
Those of us who knew about SEQUEL (a precursor of SQL) would
probably say ess-cue-ell. Similarly for CSQL users, I suppose.
That's an important consideration: are there any similar terms that you
need to distinguish it from? People have pointed out that if you have
reason to talk about XAML you probably won't use /z&ml/ for XML, but for
those - like me - who never had reason to discuss XAML, that question
doesn't even come to mind.

Related although not identical: the first contact I had with SCSI was in
the form of the Atari-specific variant called ACSI. Now if you say SCSI
as "scuzzy", calling the other one "axy" feels awkward. Better have
S-C-S-I and A-C-S-I, or sexy and axy, or scuzzy and ... acuzzy?
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi
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