diddle

[Quinn C]

Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.

But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".

So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:59:55 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might find
done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a grown-up.

The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation, but
that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a legitimate
dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female masturbation.

"Go diddle yourself" would have been - maybe - something a high
school boy would say to another boy i.

There are Googlehits for "diddle" used to mean a male diddling a
female, but that's given way to "fingering" her

I'm old enough to remember grade schoolers and high schoolers using
"diddle" to mean "masturbate", but someone a decade or two younger may
never have heard it used this way.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:59:55 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

Many people do not know what words means and assume taht what they think
they mean is the meaning.

ONE of the meanings of diddle is 'to have sex wiht' but it is not even
the primary meaning.

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Quinn C
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".

I'd say both meanings are known in the US? I'm sure I've heard "diddling
the books."

Post by Tony Cooper
To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might find
done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a grown-up.

Some people in this group are very precious and consider words like
"fart" to be so deeply offensive they require warnings and obfuscation.

Post by Tony Cooper
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation, but
that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a legitimate
dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female masturbation.

I've never heard it to mean masturbation.

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm old enough to remember grade schoolers and high schoolers using
"diddle" to mean "masturbate", but someone a decade or two younger may
never have heard it used this way.

Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference in meaning between the two is
only the use of a less objectionable word.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.

The verb "fuck" doesn't always mean to have sex with.

When something is fucked, it has been made useless.

When I feel fucked, it has little to do with sex.

It often simply means "do harm to" or "destroy".

I mean, fuck me, do I have to spell it out?

This thread's fucked, I'm off.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 15:49:39 GMT, Paul Carmichael

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.

The verb "fuck" doesn't always mean to have sex with.
When something is fucked, it has been made useless.
When I feel fucked, it has little to do with sex.
It often simply means "do harm to" or "destroy".
I mean, fuck me, do I have to spell it out?
This thread's fucked, I'm off.

Did you *have* to fucking swear?

[CDB]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"?
Both mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.

Make the beast with one back, as it were.

Post by Tony Cooper
As far as I'm concerned, the difference in meaning between the two
is only the use of a less objectionable word.

And that one of them chimes with "kiddie".

[Quinn C]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.
As far as I'm concerned, the difference in meaning between the two is
only the use of a less objectionable word.

Do people even think about the literal meaning of "fuck yourself" any
more? I think they will if you use the word "masturbate".

[Ken Blake]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.
As far as I'm concerned, the difference in meaning between the two is
only the use of a less objectionable word.

To me, they mean two different things. "Go fuck yourself" means to have
anal sex with yourself. That's admittedly very difficult for most men,
but it's my interpretation.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 04:45:53 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis
Class of 85 here, and I never heard it with that meaning. "Diddle
yourself" is akin to "fuck yourself" not "go masturbate".

How do you differentiate "go masturbate" and "go fuck yourself"? Both
mean to self-gratify oneself without aid of a partner.

Uh... no, hey do not.

Post by Tony Cooper
As far as I'm concerned, the difference in meaning between the two is
only the use of a less objectionable word.

Agree to disagree.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:59:55 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

Many people do not know what words means and assume taht what they think
they mean is the meaning.
ONE of the meanings of diddle is 'to have sex wiht' but it is not even
the primary meaning.

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Quinn C
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".

I'd say both meanings are known in the US? I'm sure I've heard "diddling
the books."

Post by Tony Cooper
To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might find
done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a grown-up.

Some people in this group are very precious and consider words like
"fart" to be so deeply offensive they require warnings and obfuscation.

Post by Tony Cooper
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation, but
that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a legitimate
dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female masturbation.

I've never heard it to mean masturbation.

Nor have I. The only way I can remember hearing it is in "Diddle diddle
dumpling my son John."

[CDB]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called
it "inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it
actually arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

Many people do not know what words means and assume taht what they
think they mean is the meaning.
ONE of the meanings of diddle is 'to have sex wiht' but it is not
even the primary meaning.

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Quinn C
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins
COBUILD, and it only lists two others: a transitive version
meaning "to cheat s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and
an intranstive one meaning "to waste time", marked "US".

I'd say both meanings are known in the US? I'm sure I've heard
"diddling the books."

Post by Tony Cooper
To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might
find done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a
grown-up.

Some people in this group are very precious and consider words
like "fart" to be so deeply offensive they require warnings and
obfuscation.

Post by Tony Cooper
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation,
but that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a
legitimate dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female
masturbation.

I've never heard it to mean masturbation.

Nor have I. The only way I can remember hearing it is in "Diddle
diddle dumpling my son John."

"Deedle", in that verse in my youth.

Wordnik at Onelook has many examples of "deedle" in use, but no
definition. The Urban Dictionary says it can be used to evoke the
scurrying of a small, many-legged creature across a rock, and also that
it is an old Scottish word for "penis" -- which brings us closer to
"diddle". I think I remember Bart Simpson mentioning his doodle, so the
possibility of ablaut (or misprint) exists.

And those words rhyme with "noodle" and "needle", thus offering a choice
of allusions.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation,
but that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a
legitimate dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female
masturbation.

I've never heard it to mean masturbation.

Nor have I. The only way I can remember hearing it is in "Diddle
diddle dumpling my son John."

"Deedle", in that verse in my youth.
Wordnik at Onelook has many examples of "deedle" in use, but no
definition. The Urban Dictionary says it can be used to evoke the
scurrying of a small, many-legged creature across a rock, and also that
it is an old Scottish word for "penis" -- which brings us closer to
"diddle". I think I remember Bart Simpson mentioning his doodle, so the
possibility of ablaut (or misprint) exists.
And those words rhyme with "noodle" and "needle", thus offering a choice
of allusions.

Consider also the refrain from "If I were a rich man":

If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I'd biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn't have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Yidle-diddle-didle-didle man.

I wonder whether Harnick wrote it all out first, or whether Zero Mostel
scatted it and they settled on a definitive version after a while.

And speaking of Bart, don't forget Ned Flanders's interpolations.

[Quinn C]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:59:55 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might find
done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a grown-up.
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation, but
that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a legitimate
dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female masturbation.

M-W has "copulate", AHD has "have intercourse with" and "practice
masturbation upon". Those two seem quite legitimate.

Post by Tony Cooper
"Go diddle yourself" would have been - maybe - something a high
school boy would say to another boy i.
There are Googlehits for "diddle" used to mean a male diddling a
female, but that's given way to "fingering" her
I'm old enough to remember grade schoolers and high schoolers using
"diddle" to mean "masturbate", but someone a decade or two younger may
never have heard it used this way.

The people I heard this from are Canadians in their thirties.

But you didn't answer my main question, what the word makes you think of
first.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 7 Apr 2021 09:57:39 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 6 Apr 2021 20:59:55 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

To me, giggling at the use of the word "diddle" is what I might find
done on a school playground, but not giggle-inducing to a grown-up.
The "sexual" innuendo is to the use of "diddle" as masturbation, but
that definition is found in the "Urban dictionary", not a legitimate
dictionary, and it seems to think it applies to female masturbation.

M-W has "copulate", AHD has "have intercourse with" and "practice
masturbation upon". Those two seem quite legitimate.

Post by Tony Cooper
"Go diddle yourself" would have been - maybe - something a high
school boy would say to another boy i.
There are Googlehits for "diddle" used to mean a male diddling a
female, but that's given way to "fingering" her
I'm old enough to remember grade schoolers and high schoolers using
"diddle" to mean "masturbate", but someone a decade or two younger may
never have heard it used this way.

The people I heard this from are Canadians in their thirties.
But you didn't answer my main question, what the word makes you think of
first.

That's an almost impossible question to answer because I expect to
hear/see the word in context, and the context will determine which
meaning is intended.

When asked what I think the word means when just the word is offered,
my mind comes up with all the different meanings the word can mean
when placed in context. No single meaning comes up first.

[Quinn C]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Quinn C
But you didn't answer my main question, what the word makes you think of
first.

That's an almost impossible question to answer because I expect to
hear/see the word in context, and the context will determine which
meaning is intended.
When asked what I think the word means when just the word is offered,
my mind comes up with all the different meanings the word can mean
when placed in context. No single meaning comes up first.

Fair enough. Even worse after we've already had a discussion of it.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I've heard the British sense here, often in the passive ("diddled out of
his inheritance"). Not sure about the others, which may be mainly from
books.

Historically I think sex is the root of it all. From Green:

diddle, v.
[Standard English diddle 'to jerk from side to side', didder 'to shake,
quiver']

-to have sexual intercourse (1632)
-to masturbate (oneself or another) (1920)
-to molest sexually (1941)
-to cheat or swindle (1767)
-to waste time (1826)

Probably also synergistic with "fiddle", which has a similar history and
range of meanings.

[Quinn C]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I've heard the British sense here, often in the passive ("diddled out of
his inheritance"). Not sure about the others, which may be mainly from
books.
diddle, v.
[Standard English diddle 'to jerk from side to side', didder 'to shake,
quiver']
-to have sexual intercourse (1632)
-to masturbate (oneself or another) (1920)
-to molest sexually (1941)
-to cheat or swindle (1767)
-to waste time (1826)
Probably also synergistic with "fiddle", which has a similar history and
range of meanings.

I'm pretty sure there's a sound symbolism element to it, compare fiddle,
fondle, dawdle, or German "daddeln", to play around aimlessly - although
these days, usually understood as "to play video games".

It's also pretty easy to get from "to play around" or jerky movements to
sexual meanings. German "ficken" also means "to move back and forth",
but is now usually understood as "to fuck".

[Eric Walker]

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

As an American who has read a fair deal of British literature, my sense
of "diddle" is, one, to cheat or swindle, or two, to waste time
pointlessly ("don't diddle around"). I have encountered the sexual sense
("he diddled her on their second date"), but only rarely.

Such uses are often considered colloquialisms, but save the sexual sense,
I think they are reasonably well established. (Nero Wolfe, quite a
precisian as to English, several times uses the word "diddle" to mean
cheat.)

[Mark Brader]

Post by Eric Walker
As an American who has read a fair deal of British literature, my sense
of "diddle" is, one, to cheat or swindle, or two, to waste time
pointlessly ("don't diddle around"). I have encountered the sexual sense
("he diddled her on their second date"), but only rarely...

I was surprised to see the word in a front-page headline in the
Toronto "Globe and Mail" for December 30, 1965.

The article is about new methods of teaching English in schools.
It's credited to Austin C. Wehrwein of the "New York Times" and
begins:

# The "new English", which can bring Robert Frost's poetry to first
# graders, is on the way.
#
# It will probably baffle parents less than did the new math,
# although a fresh approach to grammar as a linguistic game already
# is puzzling the older generation.

Later the approach to grammar is identified as based on Noam Chomsky's
generative or transformational grammars, and the new term "determiner"
is introduced. It is says that the sentence "He is a sleepy boy"
contains two "kernels", namely "He is a boy" and "He is sleepy"; that
adverbs are now called "qualifiers" in order to stress the difference
between "very" and "slowly"; and that articles are now "determiners".

And the article ends as follows, the last sentence being the one that
got into the headline:

# While the new grammar is related to computers, symbolic logic and
# mathematics, parents still will recognize some of the terminology.
#
# The experts have another term for the process that should console
# parents even more. They call it facetiously the perceive-and-diddle
# method.

[occam]

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I'll leave the sexual meanings to others. "Hey diddle diddle" is a well
known childrens English nursery rhyme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle

I am sure if you put your mind to it you could read some perverted
meanings into the rhyme.

[bruce bowser]

Post by occam

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I'll leave the sexual meanings to others. "Hey diddle diddle" is a well
known childrens English nursery rhyme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle
I am sure if you put your mind to it you could read some perverted
meanings into the rhyme.

Here, it means to swindle:
diddle inf v : swindle

Dictionary of American and English Usage (part 02/02)
Apr 1, 1992, 1:51:37 PM
-- https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english/c/0-ST1LR-P48/m/b5l1EE8AI58J

[Stefan Ram]

Post by occam
known childrens English nursery rhyme.

In the context of ASCII art, "to diddle" means to edit an
artwork from someone else. In newsgroups such an edit (a
"diddle") might appear between "<diddle>" and "</diddle>".

[Janet]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@nowhere.nix
says...

Post by occam

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I'll leave the sexual meanings to others. "Hey diddle diddle" is a well
known childrens English nursery rhyme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle

and

Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John
Went to bed with his trousers on
One shoe off, and the other shoe on,
Diddle, diddle, dumpling, my son John.

Janet

[Ross Clark]

Post by Janet
says...

Post by occam

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

I'll leave the sexual meanings to others. "Hey diddle diddle" is a well
known childrens English nursery rhyme.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Diddle_Diddle

and
Diddle diddle dumpling, my son John
Went to bed with his trousers on
One shoe off, and the other shoe on,
Diddle, diddle, dumpling, my son John.
Janet

Equally harmless, I'm sure, is "diddle-diddle-diddle-it"* in "He's the
kind of boy you can't forget", by the Raindrops, one of my favourite 60s
girl-group** songs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+kind+of+boy+you+can%27t+forget%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b

*Actually sounds to me more like "diddle-iddle-iddle-it".
**In this case a virtual group consisting of songwriting couple Ellie
Greenwich and Jeff Barry. She double-tracks the lead vocal; he delivers
the first "diddle...".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raindrops

[Madhu]

[diddle in victoran literature seems to have lost its sexual sense.]

TO DIDDLE. To cheat. To defraud. The cull diddled me out of my dearee;
the fellow robbed me of my sweetheart. See Jeremy Diddler In Raising
The Wind. -- Francis Grose (1811)

Post by Ross Clark
Equally harmless, I'm sure, is "diddle-diddle-diddle-it"* in "He's the
kind of boy you can't forget", by the Raindrops, one of my favourite
60s girl-group** songs.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+kind+of+boy+you+can%27t+forget%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
*Actually sounds to me more like "diddle-iddle-iddle-it".

[I tried getting this song - the mp3 fragment i downloaded from
spotify.com didn't have the "diddle" portion of the song. The other
websites (gaana) made my browser send info to some 100 different hosts
and downloaded javascript and css but didn't give me the song file.

The one I did eventually leech is of poor quality and I can't make out
if "diddle" was intended at all

"nonsense syllables" at best

Post by Ross Clark
**In this case a virtual group consisting of songwriting couple Ellie
Greenwich and Jeff Barry. She double-tracks the lead vocal; he
delivers the first "diddle...".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raindrops

Where girl-band means a band involving one, [one, one!] girl

[Ross Clark]

Post by Madhu
[diddle in victoran literature seems to have lost its sexual sense.]
TO DIDDLE. To cheat. To defraud. The cull diddled me out of my dearee;
the fellow robbed me of my sweetheart. See Jeremy Diddler In Raising
The Wind. -- Francis Grose (1811)

Post by Ross Clark
Equally harmless, I'm sure, is "diddle-diddle-diddle-it"* in "He's the
kind of boy you can't forget", by the Raindrops, one of my favourite
60s girl-group** songs.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+kind+of+boy+you+can%27t+forget%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
*Actually sounds to me more like "diddle-iddle-iddle-it".

[I tried getting this song - the mp3 fragment i downloaded from
spotify.com didn't have the "diddle" portion of the song. The other
websites (gaana) made my browser send info to some 100 different hosts
and downloaded javascript and css but didn't give me the song file.

I'm surprised. Your equipment must be even more primitive than mine.

Post by Madhu
The one I did eventually leech is of poor quality and I can't make out
if "diddle" was intended at all
"nonsense syllables" at best

So harmless.

Post by Madhu

Post by Ross Clark
**In this case a virtual group consisting of songwriting couple Ellie
Greenwich and Jeff Barry. She double-tracks the lead vocal; he
delivers the first "diddle...".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raindrops

Where girl-band means a band involving one, [one, one!] girl

"Girl-group" is really a style term; in most cases the singers were all
female, but they rarely played instruments. Occasionally (as here) the
female lead vocals interact with a contrasting male voice -- like
Mahlathini with the Mahotella Queens.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

To me (BrE), it is synonymous with "fiddle" - "that waiter has diddled/
fiddled me" (short-changed).

But mainly it brings to mind hey diddle diddle, the cat had a piddle, all
over the kitchen floor...

I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It may have
had something to do with The Goons.

If anybody were to tell me that it was a "bad" word, I would stop
conversing with that person.

[musika]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

To me (BrE), it is synonymous with "fiddle" - "that waiter has diddled/
fiddled me" (short-changed).
But mainly it brings to mind hey diddle diddle, the cat had a piddle, all
over the kitchen floor...
I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It may have
had something to do with The Goons.
If anybody were to tell me that it was a "bad" word, I would stop
conversing with that person.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:28:06 GMT, Paul Carmichael

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

To me (BrE), it is synonymous with "fiddle" - "that waiter has
diddled/ fiddled me" (short-changed).
But mainly it brings to mind hey diddle diddle, the cat had a piddle,
all over the kitchen floor...
I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It may
have had something to do with The Goons.

Indeed.
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap Trick's
greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".

'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Post by Paul Carmichael
If anybody were to tell me that it was a "bad" word, I would stop
conversing with that person.

That would mean diddley-squat to me.

[bruce bowser]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:28:06 GMT, Paul Carmichael

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

To me (BrE), it is synonymous with "fiddle" - "that waiter has
diddled/ fiddled me" (short-changed).
But mainly it brings to mind hey diddle diddle, the cat had a piddle,
all over the kitchen floor...
I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It may
have had something to do with The Goons.

Indeed.
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap Trick's
greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

If anybody were to tell me that it was a "bad" word, I would stop
conversing with that person.

That would mean diddley-squat to me.

That's all you do, too.

[Pamela]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 07 Apr 2021 10:28:06 GMT, Paul Carmichael

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it
actually arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").

To me (BrE), it is synonymous with "fiddle" - "that waiter has
diddled/ fiddled me" (short-changed).
But mainly it brings to mind hey diddle diddle, the cat had a
piddle, all over the kitchen floor...
I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It
may have had something to do with The Goons.

Indeed.
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

[Quinn C]

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days, I'll
likely be back to that state of affairs.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days, I'll
likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

[Quinn C]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days, I'll
likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like Pink or
Green Day, to ascertain they're actually existing and not made-up
references for a TV show or something.

I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

[Pamela]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate artistes really the best selling acts of
all time? I would be surprised.

Post by Quinn C
to ascertain they're actually existing and not
made-up references for a TV show or something.

[Lewis]

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years, but I am quite certain the top selling album of all
time is still Michael Jackson's Thriller, which has sold about twice as
many copies as the number 2 albums (there is a cluster of several around
about there).

Or do you count all sales of all products? Concerts? are you going by
unit sales or dollars?

In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The Beatles
have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led Zeppelin.

Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years, but I am quite certain the top selling album of all
time is still Michael Jackson's Thriller, which has sold about twice as
many copies as the number 2 albums (there is a cluster of several around
about there).
Or do you count all sales of all products? Concerts? are you going by
unit sales or dollars?
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The Beatles
have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real name is
Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995. She's farther down the
Wikipedia list than I cared to count, around the Carpenters, Earth Wind & Fire,
Lionel Richie, and Johnny Cash in claimed sales. As an official old
fuddy-duddy, I wouldn't recognize any of her songs.

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real name is
Alecia Beth Moore

|Oh, by the way, which one's Pink?
"Have a Cigar" - Pink Floyd (1975)

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years, but I am quite certain the top selling album of all
time is still Michael Jackson's Thriller, which has sold about twice as
many copies as the number 2 albums (there is a cluster of several around
about there).
Or do you count all sales of all products? Concerts? are you going by
unit sales or dollars?
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The Beatles
have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real name is
Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995. She's farther down
the Wikipedia list than I cared to count, around the Carpenters, Earth
Wind & Fire, Lionel Richie, and Johnny Cash in claimed sales. As an
official old fuddy-duddy, I wouldn't recognize any of her songs.

You are correct, I read Pink and filled in Floyd because OBVIOUSLY it
had to be Pink Floyd if you're talking about "best selling artists of
all time"

I still think of her as "P!nk" but I think she's dropped that styling. I
like her a lot, but there are dozens if not hundreds of artists ahead of
her on the "best selling" lists.

/M!ssundaztood/ is one of those very albums where I like every song on
it.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

[...]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The Beatles
have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real name is
Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than Rihanna.

Post by Jerry Friedman
She's farther down the
Wikipedia list than I cared to count, around the Carpenters, Earth Wind & Fire,
Lionel Richie, and Johnny Cash in claimed sales. As an official old
fuddy-duddy, I wouldn't recognize any of her songs.

She's certainly in the top 100, and was probably scoring pretty high in
my private "best-selling artists whose name I'm not familiar with so I
might want to check Wikipedia" chart. Topping this chart would currently
be Ed Sheeran, and I can find maybe 3 others before Pink.

The "can't recognize any of their songs" would start much higher up.
"Can't name even a single one of their songs if you ask me out of the
blue" starts with Led Zeppelin.

I had an experience of the kind recently when various radio programs
started talking about the new Netflix series about Selena, and they
hardly cared to give any background on who the Selena in question was.
At some point I gathered that it must be someone who's known
mononymously. Apparently, no Mexican event (quinceañera, wedding and the
like) can ever be complete without Selena's songs. Not only had I not
known about her - and listening to 2 or 3 of her most famous songs, they
didn't sound familiar - but neither had I heard of a genre called
"Tejano".

[Pamela]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of
Cheap Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few
days, I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

[...]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than
Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman
She's farther down the
Wikipedia list than I cared to count, around the Carpenters,
Earth Wind & Fire, Lionel Richie, and Johnny Cash in claimed
sales. As an official old fuddy-duddy, I wouldn't recognize any
of her songs.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of
Cheap Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few
days, I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

[...]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than
Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found Lady
Gaga to be.

[Pamela]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
[...]
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than
Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly
surprised, watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a
singer I found Lady Gaga to be.

Notwithstanding her bizarre costumes and choreography, Lady Gaga is a
decent singer although not as good as her publicity likes to make out.

I like her straight pieces like the Star Bangled Banner below and think
it's better than Whitney Houston's. Sadly the NFL requires it to be
pre-recorded.

[Lewis]

Post by Pamela

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
[...]
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly
surprised, watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a
singer I found Lady Gaga to be.

Notwithstanding her bizarre costumes and choreography, Lady Gaga is a
decent singer although not as good as her publicity likes to make out.
I like her straight pieces like the Star Bangled Banner below and think
it's better than Whitney Houston's.

Whitney Houston is widely regarded as having one of the greatest singing
voices ever recorded. Not by just her fans, but bu many professional
musicians, even those who do not particularly like her music.

But I agree that Lady Ga Ga is in the same class.

The only Whitney Houston song I liked is her cover of Dolly Parton's
"I will Always Love You" but it has been played so many times I can’t
listen to it at all anymore.

Houston had a great voice, but mostly she sang crappy songs. Had she had
better taste in what she recorded or a better manger, she could have
eclipse Ella Fitzgerald.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
[...]
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly
surprised, watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a
singer I found Lady Gaga to be.

Notwithstanding her bizarre costumes and choreography, Lady Gaga is a
decent singer although not as good as her publicity likes to make out.
I like her straight pieces like the Star Bangled Banner below and
think it's better than Whitney Houston's.

Whitney Houston is widely regarded as having one of the greatest
singing voices ever recorded. Not by just her fans, but bu many
professional musicians, even those who do not particularly like her
music.

Whitney warbled far, far too much. It lead to a whole heap of bad songs
by wannabes.

Post by Lewis
But I agree that Lady Ga Ga is in the same class.
The only Whitney Houston song I liked is her cover of Dolly Parton's
"I will Always Love You" but it has been played so many times I
can’t listen to it at all anymore.
Houston had a great voice, but mostly she sang crappy songs. Had she
had better taste in what she recorded or a better manger, she could
have eclipse Ella Fitzgerald.

[Lewis]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of
Cheap Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few
days, I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

[...]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than
Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found Lady
Gaga to be.

She is fantastic, as is Pink.

my wife and I still remember the first time I saw Lady Ga Ga, it was
definitely weird, but it was also amazing.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of
Cheap Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few
days, I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

[...]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley,
Michael Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the
top 5. The Beatles have double the number of album sales as
Madonna or Led Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

I think the Pink in question is the American singer whose real
name is Alecia Beth Moore; she started her career in 1995.

Yes, and that means she has been around a decade longer than Rihanna.

Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found Lady
Gaga to be.

She is fantastic, as is Pink.

I've never heard, or even heard of, Pink before this thread.

As far as I'm concerned, Lady Gaga is far from fantastic. She is much
better than the average popular singer, but still a long way from fantastic.

[Lewis]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
She is fantastic, as is Pink.

I've never heard, or even heard of, Pink before this thread.

I am not at all surprised, based on previous posts about music. I would
be much more surprised if you knew who she was, or any popular musician
in this century.

Here are a few of the top performing singles of the last 20 years:

The Weeknd, Blinding Lights
Ed Sheeran, Shape Of You
Billie Eilish, Bad Guy
Nickelback, How You Remind Me
Usher, Lil' Jon & Ludacris, Yeah!
Luis Fonsi & Daddy Yankee, Despacito
Lil Nas X & Billy Ray Cyrus, Old Town Road
Mary J Blige, Family Affair
Lifehouse, Hanging By A Moment
The Black Eyed Peas, I Gotta Feeling
Alicia Keys, Fallin'
Three Doors Down, Kryptonite
Mark Ronson & Bruno Mars, Uptown Funk
Snow Patrol, Chasing Cars
Eminem, Lose Yourself
Wiz Khalifa & Charlie Puth, See You Again
Ja Rule & Ashanti, Always On Time
Akon, Smack That
Beyonce, Irreplaceable
J-Kwon, Tipsy
Sonique, It Feels So Good

In case it is not clear, it is artist, then song. I'll not pretend I've
heard of all of them, but nearly all I've at least heard of.

Post by Ken Blake
As far as I'm concerned, Lady Gaga is far from fantastic. She is much
better than the average popular singer, but still a long way from fantastic.

Yes, but you've expressed your disdain for any popular music, so...

I am able to appreciate the talent of artists even if I do not like
their art, well at least sometimes, and I always try to make an effort
to see what there is there. I learned my lesson of being too dismissive
of things I didn’t like as being not-good.

For example, the first time I heard of Taylor Swift she was still a kid
singing country music and I mostly dislike country music as a genre with
very few exceptions, She was not an exception, and I did not like her
country albums. But I could certainly see she was immensely talented
even then.

Or, elsethread, Whitney Houston who in my opinion had an absolutely
fantastic voice that she used almost entirely to sing crappy music. The
fact that I don't like her music doesn't take away from the fact she was
incredibly talented.

And there's a lot of good country music, and good artist in that genre,
and yet I don't like much of any of it at all.

If you cannot appreciate the quality of Lady Gaga's singing, then I am
very sorry because you are missing out on someone with a pretty amazing
voice.

I had a co-worker/friend back in the 90s who had a disdain for most
music similar to yours. He didn't listen to anything at all that was
popular and listened mostly only to jazz singers and blues. I tried to
get him to appreciate some other music, to no avail.

So one day I put on a CD of Pat Benatar's True Love (evidently it's
genre is "Jump Blues" which is a new term for me) and hit play on
track #2, "Paying the cost to be the boss". He was blown away and wanted
to know immediately who the singer was, but I made him sit through three
more tracks before telling him.

(Pat Benatar is mostly known as a solo act rock singer from the 80s)

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
She is fantastic, as is Pink.

I've never heard, or even heard of, Pink before this thread.

I am not at all surprised, based on previous posts about music. I
would be much more surprised if you knew who she was, or any popular
musician in this century.
The Weeknd, Blinding Lights
Ed Sheeran, Shape Of You
Billie Eilish, Bad Guy
Nickelback, How You Remind Me
Usher, Lil' Jon & Ludacris, Yeah!
Luis Fonsi & Daddy Yankee, Despacito
Lil Nas X & Billy Ray Cyrus, Old Town Road
Mary J Blige, Family Affair
Lifehouse, Hanging By A Moment
The Black Eyed Peas, I Gotta Feeling
Alicia Keys, Fallin'
Three Doors Down, Kryptonite
Mark Ronson & Bruno Mars, Uptown Funk
Snow Patrol, Chasing Cars
Eminem, Lose Yourself
Wiz Khalifa & Charlie Puth, See You Again
Ja Rule & Ashanti, Always On Time
Akon, Smack That
Beyonce, Irreplaceable
J-Kwon, Tipsy
Sonique, It Feels So Good
In case it is not clear, it is artist, then song. I'll not pretend
I've heard of all of them, but nearly all I've at least heard of.

Post by Ken Blake
As far as I'm concerned, Lady Gaga is far from fantastic. She is much
better than the average popular singer, but still a long way from fantastic.

Yes, but you've expressed your disdain for any popular music, so...
I am able to appreciate the talent of artists even if I do not like
their art, well at least sometimes, and I always try to make an effort
to see what there is there. I learned my lesson of being too
dismissive of things I didn’t like as being not-good.
For example, the first time I heard of Taylor Swift she was still a
kid singing country music and I mostly dislike country music as a
genre with very few exceptions, She was not an exception, and I did
not like her country albums. But I could certainly see she was
immensely talented even then.
Or, elsethread, Whitney Houston who in my opinion had an absolutely
fantastic voice that she used almost entirely to sing crappy music.
The fact that I don't like her music doesn't take away from the fact
she was incredibly talented.
And there's a lot of good country music, and good artist in that
genre, and yet I don't like much of any of it at all.
If you cannot appreciate the quality of Lady Gaga's singing, then I am
very sorry because you are missing out on someone with a pretty
amazing voice.
I had a co-worker/friend back in the 90s who had a disdain for most
music similar to yours. He didn't listen to anything at all that was
popular and listened mostly only to jazz singers and blues. I tried to
get him to appreciate some other music, to no avail.
So one day I put on a CD of Pat Benatar's True Love (evidently it's
genre is "Jump Blues" which is a new term for me) and hit play on
track #2, "Paying the cost to be the boss". He was blown away and
wanted to know immediately who the singer was, but I made him sit
through three more tracks before telling him.

New? BB King:

Post by Lewis
(Pat Benatar is mostly known as a solo act rock singer from the 80s)

for "Love is a Battlefield"

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
She is fantastic, as is Pink.

I've never heard, or even heard of, Pink before this thread.

I am not at all surprised, based on previous posts about music. I would
be much more surprised if you knew who she was, or any popular musician
in this century.
The Weeknd, Blinding Lights
Ed Sheeran, Shape Of You
Billie Eilish, Bad Guy
Nickelback, How You Remind Me
Usher, Lil' Jon & Ludacris, Yeah!
Luis Fonsi & Daddy Yankee, Despacito
Lil Nas X & Billy Ray Cyrus, Old Town Road
Mary J Blige, Family Affair
Lifehouse, Hanging By A Moment
The Black Eyed Peas, I Gotta Feeling
Alicia Keys, Fallin'
Three Doors Down, Kryptonite
Mark Ronson & Bruno Mars, Uptown Funk
Snow Patrol, Chasing Cars
Eminem, Lose Yourself
Wiz Khalifa & Charlie Puth, See You Again
Ja Rule & Ashanti, Always On Time
Akon, Smack That
Beyonce, Irreplaceable
J-Kwon, Tipsy
Sonique, It Feels So Good
In case it is not clear, it is artist, then song. I'll not pretend I've
heard of all of them, but nearly all I've at least heard of.

I've heard of only two performers (I refuse to ue the word "artist") on
that list: Eminem and Beyonce. I don't think I've ever heard any of the
songs you mention, nor anything else by those two.

Perhaps the reason I know the name Beyonce is that I've seen pictures of
her, and thought she was beautiful.

Post by Lewis

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
As far as I'm concerned, Lady Gaga is far from fantastic. She is much
better than the average popular singer, but still a long way from fantastic.

Yes, but you've expressed your disdain for any popular music, so...

"Any" is probably too strong a word. I hate most of what's played these
days, but go back a few years and you can find music and performers I
liked a lot. My favorite popular singer was Billie Holiday.

Post by Lewis
I am able to appreciate the talent of artists even if I do not like
their art, well at least sometimes, and I always try to make an effort
to see what there is there. I learned my lesson of being too
dismissive of things I didn’t like as being not-good.

As I said, when she sang at the inauguration, I had expected to hate
her, but I was surprised at how good she was, and how much I liked her.
But I still didn't think she was "fantastic." Good, yes. Fantastic, no.


I'll also point out that in an earlier thread, I said I hated the
Beatles, but I was surprised by how much I liked "Eleanor Rigby."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Ken Blake
I'll also point out that in an earlier thread, I said I hated the
Beatles, but I was surprised by how much I liked "Eleanor Rigby."

Probably my favourite Beatles song too.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found
Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.
Apparently there's something wrong with that.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found
Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had any
formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly they were
slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did that themselves.

Post by Peter Moylan
Apparently there's something wrong with that.

This sounds like a bit of punk ideology which might have been expressed
at the time of Abba's rise to fame. But I would not say it was a
widespread attitude.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically
trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early exposure
to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for, international
artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely hostile to them.

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Ross Clark
Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early exposure
to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for, international
artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely hostile to them.

ᗅᗺᗷᗅ
NIИ
Toys Я Us

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired

and despised

Post by Ross Clark
as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

The main criticism of ABBA that I remember, from people my age
rather than professional critics, was that they were good at something
that wasn't worth doing, namely making emotionless, thoughtless,
unoriginal, accessible-to-twelve-year-olds pop, rather than whatever
genre the speaker considered more passionate, innovative, or
authentic, which would be well-written in a different way.

Post by Ross Clark
Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early exposure
to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for, international
artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely hostile to them.

There's that.

[Lewis]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired

and despised

Post by Ross Clark
as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

The main criticism of ABBA that I remember, from people my age
rather than professional critics, was that they were good at something
that wasn't worth doing, namely making emotionless, thoughtless,
unoriginal, accessible-to-twelve-year-olds pop, rather than whatever
genre the speaker considered more passionate, innovative, or
authentic, which would be well-written in a different way.

No one who has ever listened to the lyrics to Dancing Queen or Waterloo
would ever say anything that stupid. There is a reason those songs are
still popular after nearly 50 years. To misquote a famous person, many
songs are unjustly forgotten, none are unjustly remembered.

My, my - at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender
Oh, yeah - and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way

The history book on the shelf
Is always repeating itself
Waterloo, I was defeated, you won the war
Waterloo, promise to love you forevermore
Waterloo, couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo, knowing my fate is to be with you
Wa-Wa-Wa-Wa-Waterloo
Finally facing my Waterloo

there's a reason that song not only won Eurovision but is still
considered the best Eurovision song of all time.

And the way Dancing Queen conceals a heart felt and quite depressing in
something that sounds like an anthem is quite something,

You're a teaser, you turn 'em on
Leave 'em burning and then you're gone
Looking out for another, anyone will do
You're in the mood for a dance
And when you get the chance

You are the dancing queen
Young and sweet, only seventeen
Dancing queen
Feel the beat from the tambourine, oh yeah
You can dance, you can jive
Having the time of your life
Ooh, see that girl, watch that scene
Digging the dancing queen

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ross Clark
Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early exposure
to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for, international
artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely hostile to them.

There's that.

I find the idea of another show named Countdown to be confusing. The
only Countdown in my brain is the one with cats.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them
had any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons.
Certainly they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but
they did that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of
a long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he
lumped them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I
think he saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music
belonged to an older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired

and despised

as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

The main criticism of ABBA that I remember, from people my age
rather than professional critics, was that they were good at
something that wasn't worth doing, namely making emotionless,
thoughtless, unoriginal, accessible-to-twelve-year-olds pop, rather
than whatever genre the speaker considered more passionate,
innovative, or authentic, which would be well-written in a different
way.

No one who has ever listened to the lyrics to Dancing Queen or
Waterloo would ever say anything that stupid. There is a reason those
songs are still popular after nearly 50 years. To misquote a famous
person, many songs are unjustly forgotten, none are unjustly
remembered.
My, my - at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender
Oh, yeah - and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way
The history book on the shelf
Is always repeating itself
Waterloo, I was defeated, you won the war
Waterloo, promise to love you forevermore
Waterloo, couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo, knowing my fate is to be with you
Wa-Wa-Wa-Wa-Waterloo
Finally facing my Waterloo
there's a reason that song not only won Eurovision but is still
considered the best Eurovision song of all time.
And the way Dancing Queen conceals a heart felt and quite depressing
in something that sounds like an anthem is quite something,
You're a teaser, you turn 'em on
Leave 'em burning and then you're gone
Looking out for another, anyone will do
You're in the mood for a dance
And when you get the chance
You are the dancing queen
Young and sweet, only seventeen
Dancing queen
Feel the beat from the tambourine, oh yeah
You can dance, you can jive
Having the time of your life
Ooh, see that girl, watch that scene
Digging the dancing queen

Post by Jerry Friedman

Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early
exposure to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for,
international artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely
hostile to them.

There's that.

I find the idea of another show named Countdown to be confusing. The
only Countdown in my brain is the one with cats.

For My Generation (hmm!) it's the afternoon Numbers & Letters game.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired

and despised

Post by Ross Clark
as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

The main criticism of ABBA that I remember, from people my age
rather than professional critics, was that they were good at something
that wasn't worth doing, namely making emotionless, thoughtless,
unoriginal, accessible-to-twelve-year-olds pop, rather than whatever
genre the speaker considered more passionate, innovative, or
authentic, which would be well-written in a different way.

No one who has ever listened to the lyrics to Dancing Queen or Waterloo
would ever say anything that stupid. There is a reason those songs are
still popular after nearly 50 years. To misquote a famous person, many
songs are unjustly forgotten, none are unjustly remembered.

I have one thing to say about that:

Post by Lewis
My, my - at Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender
Oh, yeah - and I have met my destiny in quite a similar way
The history book on the shelf
Is always repeating itself
Waterloo, I was defeated, you won the war
Waterloo, promise to love you forevermore
Waterloo, couldn't escape if I wanted to
Waterloo, knowing my fate is to be with you
Wa-Wa-Wa-Wa-Waterloo
Finally facing my Waterloo

Sorry, I listened to the whole thing on YouTube, and I'm not seeing anything
there but the 10,000th sexual-dependency song, except that it refers to one
of the most familiar historical events. What am I missing?

Post by Lewis
there's a reason that song not only won Eurovision but is still
considered the best Eurovision song of all time.

Second-best in my opinion, after "Eres Tú", but those are the only two I know.

Post by Lewis
And the way Dancing Queen conceals a heart felt and quite depressing in
something that sounds like an anthem is quite something,
You're a teaser, you turn 'em on
Leave 'em burning and then you're gone
Looking out for another, anyone will do
You're in the mood for a dance
And when you get the chance
You are the dancing queen
Young and sweet, only seventeen
Dancing queen
Feel the beat from the tambourine, oh yeah
You can dance, you can jive
Having the time of your life
Ooh, see that girl, watch that scene
Digging the dancing queen

...

Depressing because anyone will do? It looks to me like a standard fantasy
for young people, sort of the opposite of "Waterloo", and I don't think the
girls who liked those lyrics saw anything depressing in it.

Btw, I agree with you about Whitney Houston's waste of talent. But I'll bet
some of her songs will be remembered 50 years later.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis
I find the idea of another show named Countdown to be confusing. The
only Countdown in my brain is the one with cats.

You too may be a big hero
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero
"In German, und Englisch, I know how to count down
Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun

[Ross Clark]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his
criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

On reflection, I don't think that's a good way of putting it. I think he
saw their style as old-fashioned; that well-written music belonged to an
older generation.

So maybe not a criticism at all. Björn and Benny are widely admired

and despised

Post by Ross Clark
as
craftsmen in pop song writing and production, and maybe it was the
decline of that kind of craft that he was commenting on.

The main criticism of ABBA that I remember, from people my age
rather than professional critics, was that they were good at something
that wasn't worth doing, namely making emotionless, thoughtless,
unoriginal, accessible-to-twelve-year-olds pop, rather than whatever
genre the speaker considered more passionate, innovative, or
authentic, which would be well-written in a different way.

I won't argue with every despective term there, since I probably had
something of that kind of attitude during Abba's heyday. They were
outrageously successful, after all -- a fatal liability in some circles.
And Eurovision...?!? But it seems to me that many people's perspective
has shifted with the passage of a few decades. Those old-fashioned
skills are more appreciated, while not all the "passionate, innovative,
authentic" stuff has survived so well.

I'm with Lewis on this one. Even allowing for the "90% of everything is
crap" principle, there are still a few of their songs I love.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Ross Clark
Wiki also tells us that his TV series (Countdown) "gave early exposure
to, and generated breakthrough Australian hits for, international
artists including ABBA..." He can't have been entirely hostile to them.

There's that.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you
don't need talent to be a best-selling act.

As the only one of her songs that I know goes: "So what? I'm still
a rock star!"

I remember Abba being criticised...

That's ABBA, by the way. (They always block-capitalized the acronym.)

[Lewis]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found
Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had any
formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly they were
slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did that themselves.

Post by Peter Moylan
Apparently there's something wrong with that.

This sounds like a bit of punk ideology which might have been expressed
at the time of Abba's rise to fame. But I would not say it was a
widespread attitude.

I can always think of two Abba (or is it ABBA?) songs, and I think those
are the only two I know (Waterloo and Dancing Queen) but then I'll hear
some others and realize I know those too, but those titles just don't
stick.

There is something particularly special about Waterloo and Dancing Queen
though.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found
Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had any
formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly they were
slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did that themselves.

To change the subject somewhat, I'm reminded that many years ago I saw a
performance of "Othello" with James Earl Jones playing Othello (he was
excellent). I can't remember the name of the actress who played
Desdemona, but the following day I read a review by John Simon in the NY
Times that said something like

"The playbill said that the woman who played Desdemona, xxxxxxxxx,
studied acting at yyyyyyyyyyy. I don't know if that's true, but it is,
she should demand her money back."

He was exactly right, in my opinion.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you
don't need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers
are talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly
surprised, watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a
singer I found Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically
trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had any
formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly they
were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did that
themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his

His? Is "Molly" the name of a man?

criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
Apparently there's something wrong with that.

This sounds like a bit of punk ideology which might have been
expressed at the time of Abba's rise to fame. But I would not say it
was a widespread attitude.

[musika]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his

His? Is "Molly" the name of a man?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Meldrum

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his

His? Is "Molly" the name of a man?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Meldrum

Ha. You got there first.

[Ken Blake]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.

Really? Who was the critic? As far as I can see, none of them had
any formal musical training beyond maybe piano lessons. Certainly
they were slickly produced and presented onstage; but they did
that themselves.

Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his

His? Is "Molly" the name of a man?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Meldrum

Thanks. I've never seen or heard of a man named
Molly" before.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Ken Blake

[ … ]
Their most persistent critic here was Molly Meldrum, the host of a
long-running TV music show. Perhaps I'm misremembering, and his

His? Is "Molly" the name of a man?

Apparently yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Meldrum

Post by Ken Blake

criticism was over the music sounding too musical. I think he lumped
them in the same category as composers like Beethoven.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Pamela
Pink seems largely talentless. My mistake was to forget you don't
need talent to be a best-selling act.

As far as I'm concerned, the great majority of popular singers are
talentless. Having never heard her before, I was greatly surprised,
watching the Biden inauguration, to see how good a singer I found
Lady Gaga to be.

I remember Abba being criticised because they were musically trained.
Apparently there's something wrong with that.

It may inculcate you to wrong ideas about music.

I do understand criticism of Eastern Germany, where you weren't allowed
to practice as a musician unless you had the right certificate from a
public music school. That'll stifle creativity.

I recently heard about the early Jazz programs at music schools in the
US, in a program about the history of the Real Book - fascinating story.
Many regarded that idea as crazy. Many are still skeptical about putting
Jazz in books.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C
I had an experience of the kind recently when various radio programs
started talking about the new Netflix series about Selena, and they
hardly cared to give any background on who the Selena in question was.
At some point I gathered that it must be someone who's known
mononymously. Apparently, no Mexican event (quinceañera, wedding and the
like) can ever be complete without Selena's songs. Not only had I not
known about her - and listening to 2 or 3 of her most famous songs, they
didn't sound familiar - but neither had I heard of a genre called
"Tejano".

I know that she was assassinated.

BTW, the US media were far more interested in the death (heart attack
at 50) of a rapper called DMX than in that of HRH The Prince Philip.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was wrong.

[Brianna Oxendine]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was wrong.
--
Ken

and why i'm in this class ?

[musika]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was
wrong.

Not even in the top 3. But you're catching up with Athel for blank posts
although he seems to have hit a dry spell recently.

[Ken Blake]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was wrong.

Not even in the top 3. But you're catching up with Athel for blank posts
although he seems to have hit a dry spell recently.

Blank posts are, in a way, very similar to typos, since I sometimes make
them by clicking "Send" before I was ready to.

[Ken Blake]

Post by musika

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was wrong.

Not even in the top 3.

You don't even see most of the typos I make, since I usually proofread a
message before sending it and I catch and correct most of them.

I just corrected two typos in the sentence above.


But you're catching up with Athel for blank posts

Post by musika
although he seems to have hit a dry spell recently.

[Lewis]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was wrong.

Ill defend that cronw with ever fibre of mu beeing!

[Pamela]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis
Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop

I thought I was the champion maker of typos, but I guess I was
wrong.

I'm pretty good too at making typos when I get in the stride or should
that be out of stride.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Lewis
Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years,

Hmm. I had to read that two or three times.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis
Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years,

Hmm. I had to read that two or three times.

If it's something that a native speaker would utter, it's good English.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis
Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years,

Hmm. I had to read that two or three times.

If it's something that a native speaker would utter, it's good English.

A native speaker would never utter "an labum." It has to be "a labum."

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis
Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years,

Hmm. I had to read that two or three times.

If it's something that a native speaker would utter, it's good English.

A native speaker would never utter "an labum." It has to be "a labum."

Lewis just did. It depends on what you mean by "utter".

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis
Pink Gloyd had an labum on the teop
200 for 40 years,

Hmm. I had to read that two or three times.

If it's something that a native speaker would utter, it's good English.

A native speaker would never utter "an labum." It has to be "a labum."

Lewis just did. It depends on what you mean by "utter".

It means 'utter', not 'write'.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 19:50:06 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
If it's something that a native speaker would utter, it's good English.

Pfft. I'm as native a speaker as native speakers can get, and I
sometimes utter English so bad that I can't remember it later when I
want to write it down.

And I sometimes use "bad English" on purpose, as a substitute for the
no-longer-available dirty words.

[Pamela]

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the
teop 200 for 40 years, but I am quite certain the top selling
album of all time is still Michael Jackson's Thriller, which has
sold about twice as many copies as the number 2 albums (there is a
cluster of several around about there).
Or do you count all sales of all products? Concerts? are you going
by unit sales or dollars?
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The
Beatles have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led
Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

Industry hype likes to segment the music market and gives award for
each segment. Prizes for all.

[Lewis]

Post by Pamela

Post by Lewis

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate

Your opinion is not actually relevant to this.

Post by Pamela
really the best selling acts of all time? I would be surprised.

Probably depends on how you count. Pink Gloyd had an labum on the
teop 200 for 40 years, but I am quite certain the top selling
album of all time is still Michael Jackson's Thriller, which has
sold about twice as many copies as the number 2 albums (there is a
cluster of several around about there).
Or do you count all sales of all products? Concerts? are you going
by unit sales or dollars?
In terms of total album sales, The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Michael
Jackson, Elton John, and Madonna/Led Zeppelin are the top 5. The
Beatles have double the number of album sales as Madonna or Led
Zeppelin.
Pink Floyd is right behind those two.

Industry hype likes to segment the music market and gives award for
each segment. Prizes for all.

Try to read better, this is talking about TOTAL ALBUM SALES, has nothing
to do with awards or segments.

[Quinn C]

Post by Pamela

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day,

Are those second or third rate artistes really the best selling acts of
all time? I would be surprised.

Top 100, yes.

I don't expect a strong correlation between quality (however you want to
measure that) and popularity. Some degree of correlation, but not all
that much.

The whole list of 100 doesn't even touch my favorite genres of music.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

Eh? Why would you associate "gay guy" and "drag"?

I wrote "Bach to Beyonce" and worried about the acute accent(s).
I settled on doing it your way (but haven't checked.) I mean, you
expect it to be "resumé" but actually it's "résumé."

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

Eh? Why would you associate "gay guy" and "drag"?

Normally I'd take that as sarcasm, but somehow, I'm not sure of anything
with you.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

Eh? Why would you associate "gay guy" and "drag"?

Normally I'd take that as sarcasm, but somehow, I'm not sure of anything
with you.

Looks like you've internalized some Middle America stereotype.

(I don't know whether "gay guys" "adulate" Beyoncé or whether she's
the new Cher or Barbra. It doesn't seem likely.)

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

Eh? Why would you associate "gay guy" and "drag"?

Normally I'd take that as sarcasm, but somehow, I'm not sure of anything
with you.

Looks like you've internalized some Middle America stereotype.

Generally referring to the association of gay guys with drag -
associating a cultural practice with the majority of its practitioners
and audience seems pretty straightforward, even when recent years have
expanded what drag can be.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(I don't know whether "gay guys" "adulate" Beyoncé or whether she's
the new Cher or Barbra. It doesn't seem likely.)

Regarding Beyoncé in particular, that may well be based on a small
sample, mainly one podcast where "What's your favorite Beyoncé song?" is
the standard icebreaker question.

It would be good, though, to see you acknowledge some black
celebrities/public persons of any kind. I feel there's quite a list of
them by now that you've publicly disliked, and I start to see it as a
pattern.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:31:18 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days, I'll
likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like Pink or
Green Day, to ascertain they're actually existing and not made-up

Me Too!

Post by Quinn C
references for a TV show or something.
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé

Oh, are you gay? I thought you just had issues with gender identity
classification.

Post by Quinn C
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

I'm not gay, I don't relate to Beyonce, not for any deep reason, it's
just not my era.

[Pamela]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:31:18 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:05 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days,
I'll likely be back to that state of affairs.

They did manage to fill the Budokan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Budokan

I've looked up some of the best-selling acts of all time, like
Pink or Green Day, to ascertain they're actually existing and not
made-up

Me Too!

Post by Quinn C
references for a TV show or something.
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé

Oh, are you gay? I thought you just had issues with gender
identity classification.

Post by Quinn C
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay
guy thing, related to drag.

I'm not gay, I don't relate to Beyonce, not for any deep reason,
it's just not my era.

Was Destiny's Child your era? Some of the group's songs are quite
good.

[Quinn C]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:31:18 GMT, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé

Oh, are you gay? I thought you just had issues with gender identity
classification.

I'm using "queer" in the modern sense that encompasses anyone who's not
cis and straight.

"Queer" is not a typical example of reappropriation. In the 90s, "queer"
was reborn to signify defiance of societal ideas of gender norms and
"proper" relationships, a deliberate, political and proud way of being
different, strange - queer. This gradually got adopted into the
mainstream, where it became less inherently political, and for the last
10 years or so it's often just a nicer way of saying LGBTQIA2+ (which is
getting longer and more unwieldy). Also, it's strange to say "I'm
LGBTQIA2+" when you're probably only 1-3 of all those things.

If anyone self-identifies as "queer", you should assume they mean it in
the new way. People who didn't adopt the new meaning still consider it a
slur.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, April 9, 2021 at 10:31:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
...

Post by Quinn C
I sometimes feel like a bad queer because I can't name a single Beyoncé
song - but the adulation of divas may actually be more of a gay guy
thing, related to drag.

Thanks for the /Pearl Fishers/ STS. It would help if I knew more than two lines of that duet.

[Pamela]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Pamela

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Later generations might recall the eloquent lyrics of Cheap
Trick's greatest hit "I Want You To Want me".
http://youtu.be/BJs_L7yq5qE
'didlai didlai see you crying'.

Catchy song!

"Cheap Trick"? Never heard of them before. And in a few days, I'll
likely be back to that state of affairs.

Ignore the band. The song is an earworm!

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Paul Carmichael
I have been known to say diddle ay poh. I have no idea why. It may
have had something to do with The Goons.

I'm not sure which came first: that phrase, or the Goons' song "Ying
tong iddle I po".

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C
Someone on a podcast mentioned the word "diddle", and called it
"inappropriate", and that was followed by some giggling (it actually
arose as a misreading of the name "Dibble").
So it was clear that it must have a sexual meaning. I was able to find
that in a dictionary.
But before I found that meaning, I first looked into Collins COBUILD,
and it only lists two others: a transitive version meaning "to cheat
s.o.", which is marked "mainly British", and an intranstive one meaning
"to waste time", marked "US".
So when the sexual innuendo isn't triggered, does the word feel quite
different to British and American speakers? Or do most people think of
the sexual meaning first anyway?

Innuendo only, and certainly not limited (as TC claims) to masturbation.