Discussion:
'Rake" with the meaning of 'trainset'
(too old to reply)
Dingbat
2019-11-23 15:28:22 UTC
Permalink
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET

I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake

It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
from a newspaper article:

The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms

Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Horace LaBadie
2019-11-23 16:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of
-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place
/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
In the US, trainset would be toy trains, and not a compound.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-23 16:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of
-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place
/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
In the US, trainset would be toy trains, and not a compound.
In the UK also, at least when I were a lad.
--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-23 17:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of
-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place
/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
In the US, trainset would be toy trains, and not a compound.
In the UK also, at least when I were a lad.
It seems to be a term of art.

A train set is a coherent set of vehicles (cars or wagons) harnessed
together. It can be self-propelled, i.e. responsible for its own
propulsion, or pulled by a locomotive.

I was somewhat surprised to read that

"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical glitch."

I would expect a train to have more than one wheel, and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
--
Sam Plusnet
Dingbat
2019-11-23 21:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of
-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place
/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
In the US, trainset would be toy trains, and not a compound.
In the UK also, at least when I were a lad.
It seems to be a term of art.
A train set is a coherent set of vehicles (cars or wagons) harnessed
together. It can be self-propelled, i.e. responsible for its own
propulsion, or pulled by a locomotive.
I was somewhat surprised to read that
"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical glitch."
I would expect a train to have more than one wheel,
In this context, THE is intended not as a definite article but as a generic article, as in "THE lion is a fearsome cat."
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
Peter Moylan
2019-11-24 01:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Sam Plusnet
I was somewhat surprised to read that
"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical glitch."
I would expect a train to have more than one wheel,
In this context, THE is intended not as a definite article but as a
generic article, as in "THE lion is a fearsome cat."
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject
to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed.
Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this
calamity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
I think of a glitch as a minor fault. The problem in Germany was a
catastrophic failure, not a glitch.

Lexico says

informal

1 A sudden, usually temporary malfunction or fault of equipment.
‘a draft version was lost in a computer glitch’

1.1 An unexpected setback.
‘the only glitch in his year is failing to qualify for the Masters’

(I've omitted definition 1.2, as being less relevant to the present
discussion.)

MacMillan says "a small and sudden problem". Note the "small".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Dingbat
2019-11-24 01:22:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Dingbat
Post by Sam Plusnet
I was somewhat surprised to read that
"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical glitch."
I would expect a train to have more than one wheel,
In this context, THE is intended not as a definite article but as a
generic article, as in "THE lion is a fearsome cat."
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject
to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed.
Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this
calamity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
I think of a glitch as a minor fault. The problem in Germany was a
catastrophic failure, not a glitch.
Very well. The example shows that not only can apparently robust
components have glitches; they can have even worse problems.
Be that as it may, if a possibility of a catastrophic failure of
the Vande Bharat's wheels were to have been detected, a failure
that has not yet occurred, that would be called a glitch that
needs fixing, in India, although 'defect' seems more accurate.
Post by Peter Moylan
Lexico says
informal
1 A sudden, usually temporary malfunction or fault of equipment.
‘a draft version was lost in a computer glitch’
1.1 An unexpected setback.
‘the only glitch in his year is failing to qualify for the Masters’
(I've omitted definition 1.2, as being less relevant to the present
discussion.)
MacMillan says "a small and sudden problem". Note the "small".
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-24 01:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
Nothing to do with reliability.

Railway wheels have been failing (most often due to cracks) since the
days of Trevithick. I don't know when the first wheel tapper started
work, but it can't have been much later.

The word "glitch" just seems very mismatched in this context - not least
since railways have been around since 1804 and the earliest (OED)
reference for "glitch" was 1962.
--
Sam Plusnet
Mack A. Damia
2019-11-24 02:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Dingbat
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
Nothing to do with reliability.
Railway wheels have been failing (most often due to cracks) since the
days of Trevithick. I don't know when the first wheel tapper started
work, but it can't have been much later.
The word "glitch" just seems very mismatched in this context - not least
since railways have been around since 1804 and the earliest (OED)
reference for "glitch" was 1962.
Beetle Bailey, the U.S. Army cartoon created by Mort Walker had a
contest seventeen years ago sponsored by Dell Computer Corporation to
name a new character who was an officer and a computer geek.

I submitted "Major Glitch", but the winner was "Specialist Chip
Gizmo".

Some kind of a scam, methinks. The winning name came from a guy in
Virginia, but the rules specifically said he was to be a new "Tech
Officer". "Specialist" is not an officer, not even an NCO.

Contest:

Loading Image...

I was robbed!
Joy Beeson
2019-11-24 03:44:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:18:03 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
Post by Dingbat
Post by Sam Plusnet
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
A glitch is not a catastrophic failure.

But a glitch could *cause* a catasthrophic failure, come to think of
it. "For want of a nail . . . "
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web
forum.
RH Draney
2019-11-24 09:24:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
A glitch is not a catastrophic failure.
But a glitch could *cause* a catasthrophic failure, come to think of
it. "For want of a nail . . . "
There are two recent pop-culture referents (that come readily to mind)
for "glitch"...one is how Neo recognizes interference in the
"Matrix" series of films...the other is how Vanellope von Schweetz is
distinguished from her fellow characters in the Sugar Rush racing game
in "Wreck-It Ralph"....r
Mark Brader
2019-11-24 05:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
I was somewhat surprised to read [in the Times of India article] that
"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical glitch."
I would expect a train to have more than one wheel,
In this context, THE is intended not as a definite article but as a
generic article, as in "THE lion is a fearsome cat."
Agreed. It's surprising because the generic usage would only apply with
a specific model of train, and "the Vande Bharat Express" sounds like a
specific train service, not a specific model. But in this case the
implication seems to be that it's both.
Post by Dingbat
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany
decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
That was a sad one -- the failure of one wheel does not usually produce
such a catastrophic result, but it *can*, if the train is in exactly the
wrong place, and this train was.

Anyway, I can't see the word "glitch" applying to the failure of a train
wheel, or to a problem with a model of train wheel. A glitch is a *minor
and temporary* technical problem.
--
Mark Brader | "The dream of a common standard is er... enhanced
Toronto | by the diversity of a myriad of national rules..."
***@vex.net | --Ian Walmsley

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Dingbat
2019-11-24 10:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Dingbat
I was somewhat surprised to read [in the Times of India article] that
"The wheel of the Vande Bharat Express developed some technical
glitch." I would expect a train to have more than one wheel,
In this context, THE is intended not as a definite article but as a
generic article, as in "THE lion is a fearsome cat."
Agreed. It's surprising because the generic usage would only apply with
a specific model of train, and "the Vande Bharat Express" sounds like a
specific train service, not a specific model. But in this case the
implication seems to be that it's both.
Looks like the reporter didn't know the name, or didn't care to use the
name, of the model used for the Vande Bharat Express service. The model
is a nondescript "Train 18" produced by ICF (Integral Coach Factory)
located in Chennai.

The Rajdhani Express is set to use the "Train 20" model.

https://g.co/kgs/RLwYwG

Train 18 to change the way Indians commute | Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/vadodara/train-18-to-change-way-indians-commute/articleshow/66482348.cms

Train 18 sets to be exported | Financial Express
https://www.financialexpress.com/infrastructure/railways/train-18-sets-to-be-exported-indian-railways-looks-to-enter-200-billion-world-market-for-trains/1448035/

"Many Countries Interested In Importing India's Train 18 Set,"
say Railway Officials | NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/many-countries-interested-in-importing-indias-train-18-set-railway-officials-1979857
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Dingbat
and my idea of a
train wheel is of a thing too robust to be subject to glitches.
It would be delightful if such reliability could be guaranteed. Germany
decommissioned the ICE's composite wheel after this calamity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_derailment
That was a sad one -- the failure of one wheel does not usually produce
such a catastrophic result, but it *can*, if the train is in exactly the
wrong place, and this train was.
Anyway, I can't see the word "glitch" applying to the failure of a train
wheel, or to a problem with a model of train wheel. A glitch is a *minor
and temporary* technical problem.
--
bert
2019-11-23 18:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Model railway enthusiasts, and occasionally (I think)
real train enthusiasts, use the word "rake" to refer
to a connected group of two or more items of rolling
stock, whether passenger coaches or goods wagons.
--
Janet
2019-11-23 18:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
google rake and railway and you'll find it.

In Br E, "trainset" only refers to a toy train or hobbyists models.

it's not used about real trains/railway locomotives.

Janet
charles
2019-11-23 19:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
google rake and railway and you'll find it.
In Br E, "trainset" only refers to a toy train or hobbyists models.
it's not used about real trains/railway locomotives.
I think 'set' on its own is, though
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Lanarcam
2019-11-23 20:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Janet
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
google rake and railway and you'll find it.
In Br E, "trainset" only refers to a toy train or hobbyists models.
it's not used about real trains/railway locomotives.
I think 'set' on its own is, though
Trainset belongs to the rail vocabulary, see:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_rail_transport_terms#T>

There is train set and trainset.
Neill Massello
2019-11-23 19:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
They also left out "herd of colts". Both meanings are in the Oxford
dictionaries (British and American) supplied with macOS.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-23 21:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
They also left out "herd of colts". Both meanings are in the Oxford
dictionaries (British and American) supplied with macOS.
Also in this online Oxford Dictionary, sense 4 of 5:
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/rake#h70297981083060

rake 4
noun
British

A number of railway carriages or wagons coupled together.
‘we have converted one locomotive and a rake of coaches to air
braking’

Origin
Early 20th century (originally Scots and northern English): from Old
Norse rák ‘stripe, streak’, from an alteration of rek- ‘to drive’.
The word was in earlier use in the senses ‘path, groove’ and ‘vein
of ore’.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ross
2019-11-23 23:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Neill Massello
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
They also left out "herd of colts". Both meanings are in the Oxford
dictionaries (British and American) supplied with macOS.
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/rake#h70297981083060
rake 4
noun
British
A number of railway carriages or wagons coupled together.
‘we have converted one locomotive and a rake of coaches to air
braking’
Origin
Early 20th century (originally Scots and northern English): from Old
Norse rák ‘stripe, streak’, from an alteration of rek- ‘to drive’.
The word was in earlier use in the senses ‘path, groove’ and ‘vein
of ore’.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
And from OED online:

train set n.
(a) a telephone or telegraph set designed to be used on a train (now rare);
(b) a set of model trains, tracks, etc., required for a model railway;
(c) a set of railway wagons or carriages, sometimes with a locomotive,
coupled together to form a train.

Earliest citation of the OP's sense:

1959 G. F. Allen Brit. Railways Today & Tomorrow vii. 133 The Rosters usually indicate the preceding and succeeding use to which each coach of
a train set is to be put.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-24 14:08:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
train set n.
(a) a telephone or telegraph set designed to be used on a train (now rare);
(b) a set of model trains, tracks, etc., required for a model railway;
(c) a set of railway wagons or carriages, sometimes with a locomotive,
coupled together to form a train.
1959 G. F. Allen Brit. Railways Today & Tomorrow vii. 133 The Rosters usually indicate the preceding and succeeding use to which each coach of
a train set is to be put.
That's surprising. I think I've seen the NY subway "Bluebirds" -- cars
on the BMT lines before I was born -- that were blue on the outside and
were permanently coupled in foursomes -- referred to as "trainsets,"
but maybe only in retrospective histories.
Garrett Wollman
2019-11-24 18:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
train set n.
[...]
Post by Ross
(c) a set of railway wagons or carriages, sometimes with a locomotive,
coupled together to form a train.
The connotation here is that they are permanently or semi-permanently
coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any old set of cars
coupled together as-and-if needed would form a consist, but not a
trainset. The term is more typically used today for articulated
trains, which are segmented for maintenance and for the ablility to
bend around curves, but each individual "car" of which lacks the
capability to be operated separately from the fixed configuration it
was designed for. Depending on the service, these can be more than a
hundred meters long.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Garrett Wollman
2019-11-24 18:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or semi-permanently
coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any old set of cars
coupled together as-and-if needed would form a consist, but not a
trainset.
And I forgot to mention: it only becomes a "train" when displaying
marker lights.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
charles
2019-11-24 22:21:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or semi-permanently
coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any old set of cars
coupled together as-and-if needed would form a consist, but not a
trainset. The term is more typically used today for articulated
trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one have
driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to make and 8
carriage train.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mark Brader
2019-11-25 04:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or semi-permanently
coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any old set of cars
coupled together as-and-if needed would form a consist, but not a
trainset. The term is more typically used today for articulated
trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one have
driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to make and 8
carriage train.
Right. So these are *not* trainsets. These 4-car semi-permanently coupled
sets are smaller components that a train is made up from.

On the Toronto subway, there was a period of some years when all trains
consisted of 2-car semi-permanently coupled sets, called "married pairs",
made up into trains of 6 cars. These days Line 2 still has that type of
train while Line 1 has 6-car trainsets and Line 3 has 4-car trainsets.
None of these are articulated.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto Premature generalization is
***@vex.net the square root of all evil.

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-25 11:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or
semi-permanently coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any
old set of cars coupled together as-and-if needed would form a
consist, but not a trainset. The term is more typically used today
for articulated trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one
have driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to
make and 8 carriage train.
Looxury; we're in heaven if we get a 3 car "Sprinter".
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-25 11:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or
semi-permanently coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any
old set of cars coupled together as-and-if needed would form a
consist, but not a trainset. The term is more typically used today
for articulated trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one
have driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to
make and 8 carriage train.
Looxury; we're in heaven if we get a 3 car "Sprinter".
And it's called a "Sprinter" because... its top speed is 23mph?

Asking for a commuter.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-25 21:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or
semi-permanently coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any
old set of cars coupled together as-and-if needed would form a
consist, but not a trainset. The term is more typically used today
for articulated trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one
have driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to
make and 8 carriage train.
Looxury; we're in heaven if we get a 3 car "Sprinter".
And it's called a "Sprinter" because... its top speed is 23mph?
Asking for a commuter.
The (even more) downmarket version was the "Pacer". Ironic, but true.

I hope the tense used above is correct; I'd hate to think some nut^w
enthusiasts thought it was worth 'preserving'.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2019-11-25 18:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or
semi-permanently coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any
old set of cars coupled together as-and-if needed would form a
consist, but not a trainset. The term is more typically used today
for articulated trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one
have driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to
make and 8 carriage train.
Looxury; we're in heaven if we get a 3 car "Sprinter".
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.

The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-25 18:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
Quinn C
2019-11-26 17:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
With the new trains, there's no doors anymore, but "accordion-style"
connections, like the ones in long buses.

The doors on the older trains were marked with a sign that used to
bother me, but now I can't remember the exact words. Something along
the lines of "It is forbidden to open this door at any time", which
would make it useless as a door.

The official regulations add "except with authorization or in case of
emergency." At least the latter could have been honored on the sign. We
understand that it wouldn't apply to technicians doing maintenance.
--
Pentiums melt in your PC, not in your hand.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-26 18:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
With the new trains, there's no doors anymore, but "accordion-style"
connections, like the ones in long buses.
They keep saying we're going to get something like that, but some of
the oldest lines have curves that are too sharp.
Post by Quinn C
The doors on the older trains were marked with a sign that used to
bother me, but now I can't remember the exact words. Something along
the lines of "It is forbidden to open this door at any time", which
would make it useless as a door.
The Authorities may open it in case of emergency.
Post by Quinn C
The official regulations add "except with authorization or in case of
emergency." At least the latter could have been honored on the sign. We
understand that it wouldn't apply to technicians doing maintenance.
Adam Funk
2019-11-27 13:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
What reason did they give for closing the doors between cars?
--
I love you like sin, but I won't be your pigeon
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-27 15:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
What reason did they give for closing the doors between cars?
Lest people (a) fall onto the tracks while crossing or (b) urinate onto
the tracks. The sides of the juncture area were X-style extensible fences
that I suppose an intoxicated person could topple over if the train took
a sudden rocking motion.

Maybe (c) smoke.
Adam Funk
2019-11-28 16:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
What reason did they give for closing the doors between cars?
Lest people (a) fall onto the tracks while crossing or (b) urinate onto
the tracks. The sides of the juncture area were X-style extensible fences
that I suppose an intoxicated person could topple over if the train took
a sudden rocking motion.
Maybe (c) smoke.
Thanks, I wasn't sure how NY subway cars were connnected these days.
--
[Those cookbooks] seem to consider _everything_ a leftover, which you
must do something with. For instance, cake. This is like telling you
what to do with your leftover whisky. ---Peg Bracken
Snidely
2019-12-06 11:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
What reason did they give for closing the doors between cars?
Lest people (a) fall onto the tracks while crossing or (b) urinate onto
the tracks. The sides of the juncture area were X-style extensible fences
that I suppose an intoxicated person could topple over if the train took
a sudden rocking motion.
Maybe (c) smoke.
Thanks, I wasn't sure how NY subway cars were connnected these days.
I'm surprised Mark hasn't pointed out the relevant photo archive,
although many of his past links have been to show the side view of the
car, rather than the joins.

/dps "roster shots are the most common"
--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-06 19:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
You used to could walk through the whole length of an 8- or 10-car New
York subway train, all separate cars, but that was made illegal first
when the train was in motion and then ever and then the doors were
locked, before cars came in pairs. (*The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3* could
no longer be plotted as it is.)
What reason did they give for closing the doors between cars?
Lest people (a) fall onto the tracks while crossing or (b) urinate onto
the tracks. The sides of the juncture area were X-style extensible fences
that I suppose an intoxicated person could topple over if the train took
a sudden rocking motion.
Maybe (c) smoke.
Thanks, I wasn't sure how NY subway cars were connnected these days.
I'm surprised Mark hasn't pointed out the relevant photo archive,
although many of his past links have been to show the side view of the
car, rather than the joins.
Brader claimed that his "killfile" "kills" not only all messages from
the feared detestee, but also all replies to it. "Fruit of the poisoned
tree," I suppose.
Post by Snidely
/dps "roster shots are the most common"
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-07 09:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Peter T. Daniels <***@verizon.net> wrote:
[subway cars]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Brader claimed that his "killfile" "kills" not only all messages from
the feared detestee, but also all replies to it. "Fruit of the poisoned
tree," I suppose.
Quite possible, some newsclients offer both options.
However, if you kill say 20% of the usual suspects,
and all follow-up to them you will end up
with a much smaller alt.usage.english.

But is more like 'fruit of the poisoned branch' instead of '...tree'.
My idea is that this is a silly thing to do.
alt.usage.english has a lot of self-correcting power,
and poison often doesn't carry far.
Huge branches of good postings may follow after some 'poison'.

Jan

charles
2019-11-25 18:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by charles
Post by Garrett Wollman
The connotation here is that they are permanently or
semi-permanently coupled, and designed to operate that way. Any
old set of cars coupled together as-and-if needed would form a
consist, but not a trainset. The term is more typically used today
for articulated trains...
Again: No, it isn't. A set of train cars is articulated if they
*cannot* be uncoupled because they share bogies (or in a few cases
single axles). Articulation is only one reason that a group of train
cars might be described as a trainset, and not a typical one.
In the case of the 4 carriage sets used on our line, the two outer one
have driving cabs, the centre ones don't. Most train use 2 sets, to
make and 8 carriage train.
Looxury; we're in heaven if we get a 3 car "Sprinter".
Most of the older trains still in use on the Montreal metro come in
sets of three cars, of which usually two or three are coupled.
The new trains are fixed 9-car sets, so you can walk the whole length
of the train.
They're doing that (walk through) on some of the London Underground, too -
but not on the deep tubes. Also on what is known as London Overground
(surface rail operated by Transport for London)
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mark Brader
2019-11-23 20:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
Familiar to me, but not exactly the same thing as I understand it.

I take a "trainset" to be semi-permanently coupled, including the
locomotive or motored cars necessary to move it. The same trainset
will make a number of trips, perhaps a large number of trips, without
the cars ever being uncoupled or other cars attached.

On the other hand, a "rake" is a bunch of unpowered (trailer) cars
that have been coupled together, perhaps just for one trip. Couple
on a locomotive and you have a complete train.
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
Both usages are mainly Rightpondian, I think.
--
Mark Brader | "It is not worth an intelligent man's time to be in the majority.
Toronto | By definition, there are already enough people to do that."
***@vex.net | --G.H. Hardy

My text in this article is in the public domain.
John Varela
2019-11-24 02:47:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
Familiar to me, but not exactly the same thing as I understand it.
I take a "trainset" to be semi-permanently coupled, including the
locomotive or motored cars necessary to move it. The same trainset
will make a number of trips, perhaps a large number of trips, without
the cars ever being uncoupled or other cars attached.
I'm pretty sure I've seen "trainset" (or maybe just "set") used that
way in the newspaper with regard to Washington Metro subway trains.
What I do know for sure is that when I realized the original post
wasn't about toys my mind immediately visualized a subway train.
Post by Mark Brader
On the other hand, a "rake" is a bunch of unpowered (trailer) cars
that have been coupled together, perhaps just for one trip. Couple
on a locomotive and you have a complete train.
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
Both usages are mainly Rightpondian, I think.
--
John Varela
Dingbat
2019-11-24 06:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
Familiar to me, but not exactly the same thing as I understand it.
I take a "trainset" to be semi-permanently coupled, including the
locomotive or motored cars necessary to move it. The same trainset
will make a number of trips, perhaps a large number of trips, without
the cars ever being uncoupled or other cars attached.
I'm pretty sure I've seen "trainset" (or maybe just "set") used that
way in the newspaper with regard to Washington Metro subway trains.
What I do know for sure is that when I realized the original post
wasn't about toys my mind immediately visualized a subway train.
Hornby makes train sets, not trainsets, AFAIK. These days, a trainset is
articulated; its carriages can't be decoupled since they share axles,
and probably also share wiring and plumbing.

An articulated arrangement is found on container trains too; it's quite
common to find a train composed of articulated stretches of 5 well cars
with 4 bogies shared between adjacent cars; the 5th and 6th bogie are
on the front and back of the set of 5 cars.
Post by John Varela
Post by Mark Brader
On the other hand, a "rake" is a bunch of unpowered (trailer) cars
that have been coupled together, perhaps just for one trip. Couple
on a locomotive and you have a complete train.
Mark Brader
2019-11-24 07:56:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by Mark Brader
I take a "trainset" to be semi-permanently coupled, including the
locomotive or motored cars necessary to move it. The same trainset
will make a number of trips, perhaps a large number of trips, without
the cars ever being uncoupled or other cars attached.
I'm pretty sure I've seen "trainset" (or maybe just "set") used that
way in the newspaper with regard to Washington Metro subway trains.
Yes, that makes sense.
These days, a trainset is articulated; its carriages can't be
decoupled since they share axles, and probably also share wiring
and plumbing.
No, not usually. That's only one kind.
--
Mark Brader | I remember singing "God Save the Queen" every morning...
Toronto | "Long live our noble Queen!" ... I guess it worked.
***@vex.net | She's still alive. --Rick Moranis, 2009
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-25 12:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-its-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-25 14:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-
of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-i
ts-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-25 14:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-
of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-i
ts-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's

'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'

Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
--
Jerry Friedman
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-25 15:43:16 UTC
Permalink
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection.
Cognate perhaps with Dutch 'rekel' (somewhat obsolete)
which translates to rascal; naughty boy: scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.

Jan

PS Perhaps related, the 'rekel' is also the male fox,
and idem the male dog.
Old Germanic, Norse, etc. for origins.
Adam Funk
2019-11-25 19:59:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection.
Cognate perhaps with Dutch 'rekel' (somewhat obsolete)
which translates to rascal; naughty boy: scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.
Dirty books are better in the original Kl^W Dutch.
--
hornswoop me, bungo pony, dogsled on ice
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-25 20:49:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection.
Cognate perhaps with Dutch 'rekel' (somewhat obsolete)
which translates to rascal; naughty boy: scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.
Dirty books are better in the original Kl^W Dutch.
Your problem, if you can't keep a 'schelmenroman' (E. picaresque novel)
and a 'dirty book' apart.

But you are right, the first novel with a 'rekel' in it
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_den_vos_Reynaerde>
is by far the best in the original Middle Dutch version. (±1250)
It was translated and reworked in other European languages.
(English by Caxton)

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-25 21:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection.
Cognate perhaps with Dutch 'rekel' (somewhat obsolete)
which translates to rascal; naughty boy: scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Well, now I see that the OED disagrees. It derives "rakehell" from
"to rake Hell (to find an evildoer)". Its first citation of that
idea in English is from Nicholas Udall's translation of your friend
Erasmus in 1542.

"Suche a feloe as a manne should rake helle for."

It also gives a word "rackle" or "raucle" (now only in northern
England and Scotland), meaning hasty, impetuous, rude, robust
(of old people), with the comment that some of its citations may
actually pertain to "rakell", from "rakehell". "Rackle" it says
may come from the verb "rake", to move fast, cognate to Dutch
"raken".
Post by J. J. Lodder
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.
...

New to me. The OED says the English word is borrowed from German
"schelm", the etymon of the Dutch word. It has some examples
spelled "shelm" and the like. The derivative of the Dutch word it
spells "skelm" and says is obsolete outside South Africa.

With a "k" it must not be new to me, because I've read Burns's
"Tam o' Shanter":

"She tauld thee weel thou was a skellum,
A blethering, blustering, drunken blellum."
--
Jerry Friedman
Madhu
2019-11-26 06:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone
who raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and
Hell) of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong,"
probably from raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to
go forward, move, hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame
(n.) "one who lives shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection. Cognate perhaps with Dutch
scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Well, now I see that the OED disagrees. It derives "rakehell" from
"to rake Hell (to find an evildoer)". Its first citation of that idea
in English is from Nicholas Udall's translation of your friend Erasmus
in 1542.
"Suche a feloe as a manne should rake helle for."
Perhaps there is a connection with the biblical image (largely absent in
english translationss) of separating wheat from the chaff with a
winnowing fork and then burning up the chaff (in the lake of fire)

Luke 3:17 "His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing-floor
and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff
with unquenchable fire." (NIV1984)

The fork is absent in the LXX of Jeremiah 15:7 and is called a mizre in
the herbew MT. In the LXX the image is more of the barley chaff being
scattered by the wind when winnowed rather than of being burnt

[rest not snipped on account of *laziness]
Post by Jerry Friedman
It also gives a word "rackle" or "raucle" (now only in northern
England and Scotland), meaning hasty, impetuous, rude, robust
(of old people), with the comment that some of its citations may
actually pertain to "rakell", from "rakehell". "Rackle" it says
may come from the verb "rake", to move fast, cognate to Dutch
"raken".
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.
...
New to me. The OED says the English word is borrowed from German
"schelm", the etymon of the Dutch word. It has some examples
spelled "shelm" and the like. The derivative of the Dutch word it
spells "skelm" and says is obsolete outside South Africa.
With a "k" it must not be new to me, because I've read Burns's
"She tauld thee weel thou was a skellum,
A blethering, blustering, drunken blellum."
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-26 10:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Thanks, suddenly see a connection.
Cognate perhaps with Dutch 'rekel' (somewhat obsolete)
which translates to rascal; naughty boy: scoudrel: a good for nothing.
Well, now I see that the OED disagrees. It derives "rakehell" from
"to rake Hell (to find an evildoer)". Its first citation of that
idea in English is from Nicholas Udall's translation of your friend
Erasmus in 1542.
"Suche a feloe as a manne should rake helle for."
Brings up a image of raking the glowing coals.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It also gives a word "rackle" or "raucle" (now only in northern
England and Scotland), meaning hasty, impetuous, rude, robust
(of old people), with the comment that some of its citations may
actually pertain to "rakell", from "rakehell". "Rackle" it says
may come from the verb "rake", to move fast, cognate to Dutch
"raken".
Old fashioned, with this meaning.
Dutch 'Raken' primarily means to hit (a target) nowadays.
Still in use in 'oprakelen' (lit. to rake up) also fig.,
to stir up an old fire to make it live again.
(comp. E. muckraking)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Also English 'schelm' which is a borrowing from Dutch 'schelm'.
New to me. The OED says the English word is borrowed from German
"schelm", the etymon of the Dutch word. It has some examples
spelled "shelm" and the like. The derivative of the Dutch word it
spells "skelm" and says is obsolete outside South Africa.
Yes, not used, but still understood.
Still alive in 'schelmenroman'.
Post by Jerry Friedman
With a "k" it must not be new to me, because I've read Burns's
"She tauld thee weel thou was a skellum,
A blethering, blustering, drunken blellum."
Jan
--
Of her parents he knew nothing, except that "her father must have been a
damned hundsfoot, and a schelm, for selling his own flesh and blood to
Adrian Brackel;" for by such a transaction had the mountebank become
possessed of his pupil. (Sir Walter Scott)

(nice to see a 'hundsfoot' too, from Dutch 'hondsvot')
Peter Moylan
2019-11-26 03:08:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-
of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-i
ts-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
I was disappointed to see that the name Racquel doesn't have the same
origin.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-26 18:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Maybe.  It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
I was disappointed to see that the name Racquel doesn't have the same
origin.
No, That's Welch.
--
Sam Plusnet
Dingbat
2019-11-26 08:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Dingbat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
RAKE with the meaning of TRAINSET
I can't find RAKE having that meaning in the Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rake
It is used with that meaning in India, as in this abridged excerpt
The Tejas rake (meaning the trainset used for running the Tejas Express)
might substitute for the one usually used for running the Vande Bharat
Express (due to that trainset being recalled to repair a glitch in its
wheels).
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/transportation/railways/wheel-
of-delhi-katra-vande-bharat-express-develops-glitch-tejas-rake-runs-in-i
ts-place/articleshow/72185588.cms
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Dingbat
Google Groups flags trainset as a spelling error even though I regularly
see the word used to describe Alstom's products.
https://www.google.com/search?q=alstom+trainset
Another meaning of "train set". I was reading a paper a little while
ago that used it to refer to the training set of a neural net.
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Wiktionary gives this etymology for "the other" RAKE's synonym
ROUE of French provenance:
Past participle of rouer (“to break upon a wheel; to beat harshly”),
from the belief that such individuals deserve such a punishment.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roué

Etymologically, a RAKE would become a ROUE upon being thus punished:->

RAKISH could mean "in the manner of a RAKE" as per the Cambridge
Dictionary but I've never seen it used with that meaning.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-26 08:43:26 UTC
Permalink
[ … ]
Incidentally, I think Richard may have misunderstood me when I said
that little boys used to argue about who had the biggest one. I was of
course referring to train sets. I wonder what Richard thought I meant.
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-26 09:37:35 UTC
Permalink
[ … ]
Incidentally, I think Richard may have misunderstood me when I said that
little boys used to argue about who had the biggest one. I was of course
referring to train sets.
Yes, of course you were.
I wonder what Richard thought I meant.
Train sets, obviously; but I freely admit I wasn't sure whether you
meant carriage count, points count (a rough and ready complexity
measure), layout diameter, track gauge, or total track length.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
And now I'll stop pretending if you will. :-)
CDB
2019-11-26 14:21:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ … ]
Incidentally, I think Richard may have misunderstood me when I said
that little boys used to argue about who had the biggest one. I was
of course referring to train sets. I wonder what Richard thought I
meant.
<folds hands Dürer-fashion, chants reverently>

Ourfathercanbeatyourfatherwithonehandtiedbehindhisbacknohecan'tyesheca-a-an.
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-26 10:51:13 UTC
Permalink
[-]
Post by Dingbat
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
BTW, where does the other 'rake' come from?
(the romantic seducer of good virgins)
Any connection with the garden tool?
Maybe. It's short for rakehell, which I always thought was someone who
raked Hell up, but etymonline says it's
'1540s, possibly an alteration (by association with rake (n.1) and Hell)
of Middle English rakel (adj.) "hasty, rash, headstrong," probably from
raken "to go, proceed," from Old English racian "to go forward, move,
hasten," of unknown origin. Compare rakeshame (n.) "one who lives
shamefully" (1590s).'
Rake (n.1) is of course the tool.
Wiktionary gives this etymology for "the other" RAKE's synonym
Past participle of rouer ("to break upon a wheel; to beat harshly"),
from the belief that such individuals deserve such a punishment.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roué
Etymologically, a RAKE would become a ROUE upon being thus punished:->
Quite unlikely. The original Old Germanic is 'rad',
as in German 'radfahrer', Dutch 'waterrad'.
The punishment in Dutch is 'radbraken'.
Nothing to do with a rake.

And off topic, there has been a recent archeological find of a victim
<https://images.nrc.nl/oC7cu7wEiBhSEB6VcVieq78EI-w=/1280x/filters:no_ups
cale()/s3/static.nrc.nl/images/gn4/stripped/data49350204-b16db3.jpg>
in Italy.
Note the perfectly symmetrical breaks in the lower arms and legs,
which allowed for folding inside the wheel.

Jan
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-26 23:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
Wiktionary gives this etymology for "the other" RAKE's synonym
Past participle of rouer ("to break upon a wheel; to beat harshly"),
from the belief that such individuals deserve such a punishment.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roué
Etymologically, a RAKE would become a ROUE upon being thus punished:->
Quite unlikely.
Except as a weak joke.
Post by J. J. Lodder
The original Old Germanic is 'rad',
as in German 'radfahrer', Dutch 'waterrad'.
The punishment in Dutch is 'radbraken'.
Nothing to do with a rake.
Except for the before and after pictures. Hogarth, anyone?

/dps
Dingbat
2019-11-27 19:16:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Dingbat
Wiktionary gives this etymology for "the other" RAKE's synonym
Past participle of rouer ("to break upon a wheel; to beat harshly"),
from the belief that such individuals deserve such a punishment.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/roué
Etymologically, a RAKE would become a ROUE upon being thus punished:->
Quite unlikely.
Except as a weak joke.
Joke intended.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by J. J. Lodder
The original Old Germanic is 'rad',
as in German 'radfahrer', Dutch 'waterrad'.
The punishment in Dutch is 'radbraken'.
Nothing to do with a rake.
Except for the before and after pictures. Hogarth, anyone?
/dps
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