Discussion:
[en-DE]"stationery"
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Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-14 20:36:28 UTC
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Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
He has, thankfully, never been exposed to Unix. The programming language
he learned to use, in 1976, was COMIT II, developed at MIT by Victor
Yngve to facilitate Chomsky-style natural-language parsing, who had a
falling-out with Chomsky and came to Chicago as professor of Linguistics,
Library Science, Computer Science, and whatever euphemism they were using
in those days for Psychology.
Indeed, but it's a universal symbol for "whatever yours is", as in
"$religion", etc. It escaped Unix decades ago.
Not quite universal.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-14 20:42:38 UTC
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Don't most transgendered people request that they be addressed by the
gender they've taken? They *do* want "he" or "she" used.
Too bad you don't watch American TV. Last week's *All Rise* featured
a defendant, a 17-year-old who wished to be addressed as "they," whose
outward signs signaled mid-teens male, albeit quite soft-spoken; there
was no hint of any gender dysphoria in their case history. I cannot say
whether the character was played by a person with male or female genitalia.
Tony Cooper
2019-11-14 22:22:22 UTC
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Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:42:38 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Don't most transgendered people request that they be addressed by the
gender they've taken? They *do* want "he" or "she" used.
Too bad you don't watch American TV. Last week's *All Rise*
I watched the first episode of "All Rise". Nothing about it induced
me to watch a second episode.

I often watch the new (commercial) network shows hoping that one will
be worth following. So far, "The Unicorn" is the only one I've seen
that has any promise.

"Shameless" is back on "Showtime", so I'm glad I subscribe to the
premium channels. Otherwise, it's PBS, Netflix, or Acorn.

We have been watching "Catherine the Great" on HBO, but it's not one
of Helen Mirren's better choices. I think the writers have let her
down on this one.

"Shameless", by the way, did have several episodes last season that
included similar topics. One* of the family is gay, and ran a center
for gays and transgenders. I don't remember the pronoun thing being
part of it, though.

*Maybe two of the family. One is unsure if she is or isn't.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:51:27 UTC
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Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-14 21:24:09 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".

bill
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:53:10 UTC
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[]
Weren't carrots originally purple?  What are the carrots being fed?
Shrimps?
Note to self: Read ahead before clicking "Send".
Where's the fun in that? I keep losing the note anyway.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:55:20 UTC
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Permalink
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693

Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!

My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ken Blake
2019-11-14 21:55:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-11-14 23:17:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with was
"4*ATN(1)"....r
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses
the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Post by RH Draney
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with
was "4*ATN(1)"....r
Make the computer do the work!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2019-11-15 12:20:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses
the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Post by RH Draney
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with
was "4*ATN(1)"....r
Make the computer do the work!
The computer has to do the work even if you spell out the digits, and my
way you get the full precision that the interpreter is capable of...if
the function call bothers you, assign the expression above to a variable
at the start of the program and make it do a symbol table lookup instead
thereafter....r
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 16:05:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said in
another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make frequent typos.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 16:34:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said
in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make frequent
typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 19:08:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said
in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make
frequent typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
Actually I use more than two (about five). But I usually say
"two-finger" since it's a common way to describe non-standard typing.
I use a few more than you - in fact, eight altogether. For the
spacebar[1], I also use one of my thumbs (which, I'm told, is one more
than a flamingo can manage).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
[1] first draft: "spacebra" - the mind boggles.
Peter Moylan
2019-11-16 00:20:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just
said in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make
frequent typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
My first wife trained as an art teacher, so naturally the school
assigned her to teach sewing and typing. After a while, her observing my
hunt-and-peck style prompted her to teach me to type. That was before I
had a computer. I learnt on a manual (non-electric) typewriter. That
gave me a head start once I did become a heavy computer user.

It's so obviously an essential skill these days that I tend to forget
that most computer users have had no typing training.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:35:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:31:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:35:02 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without
being aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Also referencing some (state?) legislature that decreed pi as 3.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 15:07:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:35:02 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Also referencing some (state?) legislature that decreed pi as 3.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's in the Bible, fer cryin' out loud.
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 16:02:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Ah! Yes of course. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Kerr-Mudd,John. What
I sent was a terrible typo. I of course meant 3.141593
--
Ken
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 20:11:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of
characters ("token") as a variable. It is a convention common
in the Unix milieu. In programming, using descriptive
variable names is preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without
being aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Ah! Yes of course. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Kerr-Mudd,John.
What I sent was a terrible typo. I of course meant 3.141593
No worries.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-14 22:00:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
That's not addressing; that's a bitwise AND operation. If you want to
call(&Deity);
Less technial is OMG.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:32:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:00:34 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:29:46 +0000, Richard Heathfield
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -,
someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and
they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
That's not addressing; that's a bitwise AND operation. If you want to
call(&Deity);
Less technial is OMG.
Other Gods are Available?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-14 22:25:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like
1:10.
I don't think that's right.

"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.

[...]

"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
200,000 mcg — can cause:

* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945

(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:52:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for>
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like>
1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
--
athel
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-15 08:21:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for>
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like>
1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.

/dps
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 09:10:58 UTC
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On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:49:54 PM UTC-8, Athel
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel> >
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>> >>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose
for>> >> digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's
more like>> >> 1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I>
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in>
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that>
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with>
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and>
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in>
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great>
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.
Indeed, though the stories may be confused and exaggerated. Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears. In his case it was
probably due to eating dogs' livers when he was starving.

On the other hand Gerrit de Veer, a participant in the Dutch
exploration of Novaya Zemlya in the 16th century, reported severe
symptoms (but not, I think, death) in men who had consumed polar bear
liver.
--
athel
RH Draney
2019-11-15 10:07:23 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:49:54 PM UTC-8, Athel
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.
Indeed, though the stories may be confused and exaggerated. Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears. In his case it was
probably due to eating dogs' livers when he was starving.
On the other hand Gerrit de Veer, a participant in the Dutch exploration
of Novaya Zemlya in the 16th century, reported severe symptoms (but not,
I think, death) in men who had consumed polar bear liver.
My sister was a nurse in central Alaska...she says the Inuit were prone
to coming down with hypercarotenemia after the occasional big
celebration in which huge quantities of polar bear liver were consumed,
usually by the men, usually showing off, and usually when a lot of
drinking had also been going on....

The nutrient I most associate with a narrow range of dosages between
effectiveness and toxicity is zinc...skirted the upper edge of that
range myself a few times when I was trying to treat a cold with zinc
lozenges that were a higher dosage than what I had taken in the
past...the first thing to go, by the way, is your sense of taste....r
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 12:07:34 UTC
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On 15/11/2019 09:10, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
<snip>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears.
That's not actually true, or at least not all the time. There are loads
of polar bears in Antarctica; attracted by the prospect of a penguin
supper (and, contrary to popular opinion, they can get the wrappers off
just fine), they hitch down any way they can - cruise ships, tramp
steamers, submarines, spend a few weeks down there generally stuffing
themselves silly, and then make their slow, leisurely way back home,
often floating on their backs but sometimes sailing an occasional
iceberg if it happens to be going in the right direction.

The reason people think there aren't any is that they are masters (and
mistresses) of concealment. If, as they journey through the trackless
icy wastes with a blizzard raging around them, they encounter a solitary
human, it's quite obviously time for lunch; but if there are several,
well, polar bears have learned to be wary. Since the easiest way not to
be bothered by humans is for the humans not to know you're around, these
enormous white-furred beasts will hurtle across the pristine
polar-bear-coloured snow, rushing past the magnificent
polar-bear-coloured glaciers and snowfalls and ice ridges, until they at
last reach the Meteorological Research Station, where they are at last
able to hide themselves round the back, in those big bins with lids on.

It is, of course, true that neither David Attenborough nor anyone else
has ever clapped eyes on a polar bear in the Antarctic, but that just
goes to show how *good* they are at hiding.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
2019-11-14 23:14:23 UTC
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On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.

These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:30:07 UTC
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Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
That's what killed the flamingos.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:37:34 UTC
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It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance you would
say pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant. "This also simplifies modifying the program, should
the value of pi change."
In an expanding universe, and assuming no new matter is being created,
space should become flatter; therefore pi should approach a constant value.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:39:25 UTC
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...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
Only if the deity is a mouse.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:52:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
Only if the deity is a mouse.
And if it's a table (as in the declension of "mensa" that was in my
first Latin grammar)?
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:10:07 UTC
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On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Too much of anything can be poisonous. That's kind of what "too much" means.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 15:48:53 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Too much of anything can be poisonous. That's kind of what "too much" means.
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderful." Mae West
--
Ken
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:22:45 UTC
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Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.

On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."

(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
But live flamingos don't eat carrots; only dead
flamingos do.
Talking of dead flamingos, the word "flamingo" appeared in the Guinness
Book of Names, in the category of notable boat names. It took me a while
to work out why.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 18:01:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
--
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both
called users? ---Clifford Stoll
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 18:27:55 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
There are several other names associated with the tale - which is why I
wrote "(attrib)".
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Madhu
2019-11-15 02:25:10 UTC
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It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Indeed.

I botched it up when cutpasting . FWIW Here's the original:

%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to constants;
instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the
variable PI can be given that value with a DATA statement and used instead
of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the
program, should the value of pi change.
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:36:40 UTC
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Post by Madhu
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place,
pi=3.141693
Indeed.
%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to
constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every
appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA
statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This
also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change.
Always good to hedge your bets!
Post by Madhu
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2019-11-15 15:50:07 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Madhu
%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to
constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every
appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA
statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This
also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change.
Always good to hedge your bets!
I don't know. I don't trust people who have their fingers in too many
Pis.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.
Robert R. Coveyou
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:27:46 UTC
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Permalink
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)

I generally just stick it in a macro:

#define PI 3.14159265358979323846

Pi to 20dp is easy to remember because:

Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 15:57:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
I know a variation of that:

Sir, I send a rhyme excelling,
In sacred truth and rigid spelling,
Numerical sprites elucidate,
For me the lexicon's dull weight,
If nature gain, who can complain,
Tho' Dr Johnson fulminate?

But that's far more decimal places than I ever need, so I sometimes use

How I like (or "Can I have") a large container of coffee

to which I've added

cream and sugar

But even that is way more decimal places that I ever need. 3.14 is
usually good enough for me.
--
Ken
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 17:02:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
    Sir, I send a rhyme excelling,
    In sacred truth and rigid spelling,
    Numerical sprites elucidate,
    For me the lexicon's dull weight,
    If nature gain, who can complain,
    Tho' Dr Johnson fulminate?
But that's far more decimal places than I ever need, so I sometimes use
    How I like (or "Can I have") a large container of coffee
to which I've added
    cream and sugar
But even that is way more decimal places that I ever need. 3.14 is
usually good enough for me.
I don't see how. Even with my 20dp, given the diameter of the observable
universe I underestimate its circumference by a good 2,326+km.

If ever I want to travel around the edge of the observable universe (and
it's definitely on my bucket list), I'm going to need to plan my trip
with rather more than 20dp if I don't want to run out of Diesel right at
the end.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:59:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Java and Python have the values built into the standard libraries
(Math.PI & math.pi, respectively). Do the C or C++ libraries not
provide that now?
--
Most Americans are too civilized to hang skulls from baskets, having
been headhunters, of course, only as recently as Vietnam.
---Kinky Friedman
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 18:27:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Java and Python have the values built into the standard libraries
(Math.PI & math.pi, respectively). Do the C or C++ libraries not
provide that now?
POSIX does, I think. It calls it M_PI or something like that.

But any C programmer who can't remember pi to 20 places should probably
take up Python.

<g,d&r>
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 14:57:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I finally got around to ordering a debit card for small purchases.
The bank sent me one, but it is the same color and appearance as my
credit card from the same bank.
That really annoys me. I used to have a credit card with a "Visa" label
on it, and a debit card issued by my building society. That worked,
trouble-free, for me. But then the building society outsourced the debit
card to Visa, so now I have two cards labelled "Visa". That has wrecked
the intuition that "Visa" means "credit card".
I have four VISA cards and three MasterCards (and a Discover card). Three
of the Visas and one of the MasterCards are issued by the same bank (it's
useful to have one used for deductible items, not that that means much
any more after the Trump "tax reduction," one that amasses "points," and
one with a lower interest rate that can be used for the occasional large
purchase), and one of the Visas is my only debit card -- not that I wanted
a debit card, but it's the ATM card and normally it lives inside its
little paper envelope in a separate part of the wallet. The three Master-
Cards are from different banks, because they are "store cards" that give
rebates on purchases at the stores that issue them, and "points" for
their use elsewhere.
We still get "cash advance" fees now and then, when my wife accidentally
withdraws cash from the credit account.
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Katy Jennison
2019-11-15 16:03:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I finally got around to ordering a debit card for small purchases.
The bank sent me one, but it is the same color and appearance as my
credit card from the same bank.
That really annoys me. I used to have a credit card with a "Visa" label
on it, and a debit card issued by my building society. That worked,
trouble-free, for me. But then the building society outsourced the debit
card to Visa, so now I have two cards labelled "Visa". That has wrecked
the intuition that "Visa" means "credit card".
I have four VISA cards and three MasterCards (and a Discover card). Three
of the Visas and one of the MasterCards are issued by the same bank (it's
useful to have one used for deductible items, not that that means much
any more after the Trump "tax reduction," one that amasses "points," and
one with a lower interest rate that can be used for the occasional large
purchase), and one of the Visas is my only debit card -- not that I wanted
a debit card, but it's the ATM card and normally it lives inside its
little paper envelope in a separate part of the wallet. The three Master-
Cards are from different banks, because they are "store cards" that give
rebates on purchases at the stores that issue them, and "points" for
their use elsewhere.
We still get "cash advance" fees now and then, when my wife accidentally
withdraws cash from the credit account.
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Keep them all in different places. I have one John Lewis reward card,
which I use for routine credit card purchases in stores, coffee-shops
etc, and which I keep in my wallet; one credit card for use abroad
(because it gives the best exchange rate) which lives with my passport;
one which has a deliberately-low credit limit, for internet purchases,
so that if it's fraudulently skimmed they can't get away with thousands,
and that card stays at home; and a credit card (which I hardly ever use)
from the bank, and of course a debit card, in a separate part of my wallet.
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2019-11-15 22:25:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 16:03:43 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Keep them all in different places. I have one John Lewis reward card,
which I use for routine credit card purchases in stores, coffee-shops
etc, and which I keep in my wallet; one credit card for use abroad
(because it gives the best exchange rate) which lives with my passport;
one which has a deliberately-low credit limit, for internet purchases,
so that if it's fraudulently skimmed they can't get away with thousands,
and that card stays at home; and a credit card (which I hardly ever use)
from the bank, and of course a debit card, in a separate part of my wallet.
Females, and certain males, have an advantage in being able to keep
cards on their person in separate places. Most males have a wallet
kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't that many separate places in
which to put a card. Females, and certain males, have the advantage
of being able to carry a voluminous purse.

I don't even know where my card is that I use for internet purchases.
It's tucked away in some drawer, but the information is stored in my
PayPal account. I use PayPal for all online purchases.

I carry one credit and one debit card and one store (Wawa) gasoline
card. I don't like sitting on a wallet any fatter than it needs to
be.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 22:49:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Females, and certain males, have an advantage in being able to keep
cards on their person in separate places. Most males have a wallet
kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't that many separate places in
which to put a card.
The last clause is a truly astonishing and counterfactual statement.

(The first sentence is also bizarre, given that male clothing typically
has pockets and female clothing typically doesn't. Maybe some arcane
sense of "on their person" is intended.) (Why isn't TC agitating for
gendered plural pronouns?)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 15:01:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
Bestowed on Europe (and thence the rest of the world) an alphabet that is
thoroughly inadequate with regard to letters for sibilants and probably
for vowels.
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:56:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
I was under the impression that the Romans brought orange carrots to
the British Isles, but looking it up I find that the orange ones
originated in C.16 Holland. Never mind.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Bestowed on Europe (and thence the rest of the world) an alphabet that is
thoroughly inadequate with regard to letters for sibilants and probably
for vowels.
--
He [Nixon] is the president of every place in this country which
does not have a bookstore. ---Murray Kempton
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 20:19:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the
following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
I was under the impression that the Romans brought orange carrots to
the British Isles, but looking it up I find that the orange ones
originated in C.16 Holland. Never mind.
That was the flamingos.
Or was it the Robin? maybe rabbits and watercress? Anyway we had a
national road network before they came over here with their (plural)
straight lines and constant baths. And writing and circuses and bridges
and .. anyhow what did they ever do for us?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:57:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. ---Sabine Baring-Gould
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-15 20:05:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Yeah? Where does the mud get it from then?
--
Sam Plusnet
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 20:29:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from.  All clear as mud now.
Yeah?  Where does the mud get it from then?
Carrots?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2019-11-15 20:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since
the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Yeah? Where does the mud get it from then?
From drowned carrots, when the sea levels rose at the end of the Ice Age?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Tony Cooper
2019-11-15 22:17:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.

In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild. Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about
not reproducing in captivity.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
b***@aol.com
2019-11-15 18:31:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die. But live flamingos don't eat carrots; only dead
flamingos do.
Aren't they feeding the carrots, rather?
The German equivalent of "pushing up daisies" is "looking at the
radishes from below". Why not carrots?
Indeed, Carrots and Styx...
--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
Tony Cooper
2019-11-16 01:38:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:59:01 -0500, Quinn C
And I've said already several times that I'll accept any polite
reference that doesn't make it look as if I were male or female. But
because you're being such a PITA about it, I'll now only accept "they"
from you, specifically.
I can handle not being accepted by you. Easily.
Great! Then I hope you'll extend the same support to trans people's
needs, like changing sex/gender markers on drivers licenses or birth
records to a third option like "X".
Good Lord, no! There are two functions of a driver's license: First,
to show that the holder has qualified for one, and second to provide
identification to any policeman who has reason to ask for it.

The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.

The driver's license is also used as identification for other
purposes, but they are not legal requirements, and the state should
not change the license information because its used for identification
when presenting a credit card or somesuch.

If a need for a non-sex/gender-stated form of ID is established, then
it should be something other than the driver's license.

As to birth records, if what is stated on the birth record is what was
determined at the time of birth, then they are correct as-is.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
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