Discussion:
[en-DE]"stationery"
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Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-14 20:36:28 UTC
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Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
He has, thankfully, never been exposed to Unix. The programming language
he learned to use, in 1976, was COMIT II, developed at MIT by Victor
Yngve to facilitate Chomsky-style natural-language parsing, who had a
falling-out with Chomsky and came to Chicago as professor of Linguistics,
Library Science, Computer Science, and whatever euphemism they were using
in those days for Psychology.
Indeed, but it's a universal symbol for "whatever yours is", as in
"$religion", etc. It escaped Unix decades ago.
Not quite universal.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-14 20:42:38 UTC
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Don't most transgendered people request that they be addressed by the
gender they've taken? They *do* want "he" or "she" used.
Too bad you don't watch American TV. Last week's *All Rise* featured
a defendant, a 17-year-old who wished to be addressed as "they," whose
outward signs signaled mid-teens male, albeit quite soft-spoken; there
was no hint of any gender dysphoria in their case history. I cannot say
whether the character was played by a person with male or female genitalia.
Tony Cooper
2019-11-14 22:22:22 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:42:38 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Don't most transgendered people request that they be addressed by the
gender they've taken? They *do* want "he" or "she" used.
Too bad you don't watch American TV. Last week's *All Rise*
I watched the first episode of "All Rise". Nothing about it induced
me to watch a second episode.

I often watch the new (commercial) network shows hoping that one will
be worth following. So far, "The Unicorn" is the only one I've seen
that has any promise.

"Shameless" is back on "Showtime", so I'm glad I subscribe to the
premium channels. Otherwise, it's PBS, Netflix, or Acorn.

We have been watching "Catherine the Great" on HBO, but it's not one
of Helen Mirren's better choices. I think the writers have let her
down on this one.

"Shameless", by the way, did have several episodes last season that
included similar topics. One* of the family is gay, and ran a center
for gays and transgenders. I don't remember the pronoun thing being
part of it, though.

*Maybe two of the family. One is unsure if she is or isn't.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:51:27 UTC
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On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-14 21:24:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".

bill
Tak To
2019-11-17 20:04:26 UTC
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Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
I want to distinguish the use of the singular they for a single
person from that for a group or institution (e.g., "I ask the
bank and they say ..."). Is there any indication that the
former was alive and well (vis-a-vis[1] the latter) before the
current attempt to revive it?

[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-17 21:40:58 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
I want to distinguish the use of the singular they for a single
person from that for a group or institution (e.g., "I ask the
bank and they say ..."). Is there any indication that the
former was alive and well (vis-a-vis[1] the latter) before the
current attempt to revive it?
You'd want to use past tense for that: "I asked the bank and
they said..." More context is needed to determine whether you
asked an individual, say, or wrote the bank a letter, an email, etc.
The "they" in this case could be an individual bank employee,
several bank employees the last of whom answered your question,
a computer that answered your question based on its programming,
etc.
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
I've never seen "via-a-vis" used. My googling indicates that it
is the name of a font. I do not think it is in use as a phrase
in English, and if Thunderbird's dictionary can be edited, you
should get rid of this error.

bill
Tak To
2019-11-18 20:49:47 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tak To
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
I want to distinguish the use of the singular they for a single
person from that for a group or institution (e.g., "I ask the
bank and they say ..."). Is there any indication that the
former was alive and well (vis-a-vis[1] the latter) before the
current attempt to revive it?
You'd want to use past tense for that: "I asked the bank and
they said..."
...
Post by b***@shaw.ca
More context is needed to determine whether you
asked an individual, say, or wrote the bank a letter, an email, etc.
The "they" in this case could be an individual bank employee,
several bank employees the last of whom answered your question,
a computer that answered your question based on its programming,
etc.
Or the referent is the (anthropomorphized) bank. Groups and
organizations are routinely anthropomorphized. E.g., "The
NRA announces today that *they* will..."
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
I've never seen "via-a-vis" used. My googling indicates that it
is the name of a font. I do not think it is in use as a phrase
in English, and if Thunderbird's dictionary can be edited, you
should get rid of this error.
It was presented for amusement.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB
2019-11-17 21:41:19 UTC
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On 11/17/2019 3:04 PM, Tak To wrote:

[Great Pronoun Debate]
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
African or European?
Peter Moylan
2019-11-17 23:42:44 UTC
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Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
Spelling correction can be annoying. Yesterday my wife texted me to ask
where the cheapest petrol was. I replied that she should go to Argenton,
a suburb not far from here. At least, that's what I intended. I realised
later that I had told her to go to Argentina.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
RH Draney
2019-11-18 00:16:10 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
Spelling correction can be annoying. Yesterday my wife texted me to ask
where the cheapest petrol was. I replied that she should go to Argenton,
a suburb not far from here. At least, that's what I intended. I realised
later that I had told her to go to Argentina.
Which is misleading advice...any fule kno the cheapest petrol is in
Venezuela....r
Mack A. Damia
2019-11-18 01:51:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
Spelling correction can be annoying. Yesterday my wife texted me to ask
where the cheapest petrol was. I replied that she should go to Argenton,
a suburb not far from here. At least, that's what I intended. I realised
later that I had told her to go to Argentina.
Which is misleading advice...any fule kno the cheapest petrol is in
Venezuela....r
KM 267.3 on the ruptured Mexican pipeline.

It's open for business now.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-18 13:44:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tak To
[1] The default US English dictionary in Thunderbird suggests
"via-a-vis".
Spelling correction can be annoying. Yesterday my wife texted me to ask
where the cheapest petrol was. I replied that she should go to Argenton,
a suburb not far from here. At least, that's what I intended. I realised
later that I had told her to go to Argentina.
Was that you or your spellchecker? (Oh, look, it's stopped squiggling
"spellchecker.")
Quinn C
2019-11-18 15:06:29 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
I want to distinguish the use of the singular they for a single
person from that for a group or institution (e.g., "I ask the
bank and they say ..."). Is there any indication that the
former was alive and well (vis-a-vis[1] the latter) before the
current attempt to revive it?
I don't think that one even counts as singular they. That's an implied
(semantic) plural.

The singular they that has existed for a long time is for a person of
unknown gender, as a reference to "someone" or "every person who ..."
and the like.

That's also different from that for a specific single person, which is
under discussion here, but not dramatically so. The potential for
ambiguity is similar.
--
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose
from; furthermore, if you do not like any of them, you can just
wait for next year's model.
Andrew Tanenbaum, _Computer Networks_ (1981), p. 168.
Adam Funk
2019-11-18 14:07:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you. I'm
simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I write
"There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He or she lives
in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I write "There's a
poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". They live in Canada." I am
writing sentences that are not clear to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you - people
who think like you - created it and made it mine. No more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
The prescription against singular "they" was widely taught, at least
in the USA, for quite a while. It was much better-known among most
high school graduates than C.14 English language & literature.
--
It's like a pair of eyes. You're looking at the umlaut, and it's
looking at you. ---David St. Hubbins
Quinn C
2019-11-18 15:46:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
The prescription against singular "they" was widely taught, at least
in the USA, for quite a while. It was much better-known among most
high school graduates than C.14 English language & literature.
As have other nonsense prescriptions - against the passive, against
prepositions at the end of sentences etc.

Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?
Tak To
2019-11-18 19:27:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn; gender
should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But the neologisms
s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward. I'm old-fashioned enough
to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular "they"
first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since then,
but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
The prescription against singular "they" was widely taught, at least
in the USA, for quite a while. It was much better-known among most
high school graduates than C.14 English language & literature.
As have other nonsense prescriptions - against the passive, against
prepositions at the end of sentences etc.
Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
FWIW, that's a singular "their", not "they".
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2019-11-18 22:42:47 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
FWIW, that's a singular "their", not "they".
It's not worth anything.

Just to be clear, that's an observation on language, not on you. "They"
and "their" are just forms of the same word.

"Someone left their phone here. They'll be missing it dearly! We should
get it to them as quickly as possible."

I like this concise and clearly written guide:
<https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they>
--
... while there are people who are consecrated, chronic
assholes--like Donald Trump for example, or General Patton--
it's a condition that all of us are liable to.
-- Geoffrey Nunberg, 2012 interview
Tak To
2019-11-19 17:48:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
FWIW, that's a singular "their", not "they".
It's not worth anything.
Just to be clear, that's an observation on language, not on you.
Understood; never had a doubt.
Post by Quinn C
"They"
and "their" are just forms of the same word.
Be they different forms (cases) and not different words, it
does not follow that the different forms are used with the same
prevalence or pattern. That are lots of words to used in place
of pronouns in the subject or object case -- this, that, these,
those, some, one, someone, who, whom, etc but far fewer for
possessive pronouns (which are arguably adjectives except when
following "of"). There is no this's, that's, these's, those's,
some's, who's or whom's.
Post by Quinn C
"Someone left their phone here. They'll be missing it dearly! We should
get it to them as quickly as possible."
This example does not invalidate what I have just said.
Post by Quinn C
<https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they>
I am not interested in prescribing usage. I am interested in
the validity of the descriptive grammar that is used (by some)
to justify the prescription. To wit, I am questioning the
prevalence of the (unmarked) usage of the singular "they" in
contemporary English.

Markedness in this case has a lot to do with the definiteness of
the referent, especially the numerical definiteness -- to say
the very least.

For example, "That's the one! They are the murderer!" is very
marked.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2019-11-19 18:18:05 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
FWIW, that's a singular "their", not "they".
It's not worth anything.
Just to be clear, that's an observation on language, not on you.
Understood; never had a doubt.
Post by Quinn C
"They"
and "their" are just forms of the same word.
Be they different forms (cases) and not different words, it
does not follow that the different forms are used with the same
prevalence or pattern. That are lots of words to used in place
of pronouns in the subject or object case -- this, that, these,
those, some, one, someone, who, whom, etc but far fewer for
possessive pronouns (which are arguably adjectives except when
following "of"). There is no this's, that's, these's, those's,
some's, who's or whom's.
"who's" has come to be written "whose", and "whom's" wouldn't make
sense. Otherwise, yes, there are holes in the paradigm of some words,
but where the forms exist, they are used according to the same rules.
I'm not aware of an exception (that's not flagged on as an error by at
least some native speakers, see below.)

I think I saw a post of Tony's where he remarked "I don't know if it
was 'they' or 'them' that Quinn asked for", and that question just
doesn't make sense.

Some people say "My pronouns are they/them/theirs", and I always wonder
why you need to name all three, because I haven't met anyone who
prefers, say "they/him/hers", and it would be quite a feat to get that
right.

That said, I often do say "they/them" just to add a bit of redundancy,
but I don't think I've ever said a triplet.

But it may just be that I take this for granted because my native
tongue still has a proper case system, and that English speakers lose
all feeling for these things. The trouble they have with "whom", or the
prevalence of things like "for my wife and I" are indications of that.
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
"Someone left their phone here. They'll be missing it dearly! We should
get it to them as quickly as possible."
This example does not invalidate what I have just said.
Post by Quinn C
<https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they>
I am not interested in prescribing usage. I am interested in
the validity of the descriptive grammar that is used (by some)
to justify the prescription. To wit, I am questioning the
prevalence of the (unmarked) usage of the singular "they" in
contemporary English.
I don't think that the OED and Merriam-Webster have been taken over by
people with an agenda. They include a usage based on it consistently
(over the course of a number of years) being found with a certain
frequency in published texts.
Post by Tak To
Markedness in this case has a lot to do with the definiteness of
the referent, especially the numerical definiteness -- to say
the very least.
For example, "That's the one! They are the murderer!" is very
marked.
I guess I'm already used to it. I'd definitely find "That's the one! He
or she is the murderer!" weirder.
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi
HVS
2019-11-18 16:40:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 12:51:32 PM UTC-8,
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 19:54:06 GMT, Tony Cooper
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:18:31 -0500, Quinn C
[I cut a bit and changed the header]
You really don't understand. I'm not forcing gender on you.
I'm simply writing sentences that are clear references. If I
write "There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn". He
or she lives in Canada." I'm not forcing gender on you. If I
write "There's a poster here that goes by the name "Quinn".
They live in Canada." I am writing sentences that are not clear
to most readers.
I'm not making it your problem. It was yours all along, you -
people who think like you - created it and made it mine. No
more.
The more you (Tony Cooper) argue, the more I side with Quinn;
gender should have no bearing on what we say^w type here. But
the neologisms s/he, hern ey etc are interesting, if awkward.
I'm old-fashioned enough to think 'they' is plural, though.
You were born before the 14th century? That was when the singular
"they" first emerged in English. It has waxed and wanted since
then, but has never gone away. I have read online that its use is
currently increasing as more people ask not to be referred to
as "he" or "she".
The prescription against singular "they" was widely taught, at
least in the USA, for quite a while. It was much better-known
among most high school graduates than C.14 English language &
literature.
I have no problem with singular "they", but citing its use in
mediaeval English as an authority for current usage is a form of
etymological fallacy.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:53:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Weren't carrots originally purple?  What are the carrots being fed?
Shrimps?
Note to self: Read ahead before clicking "Send".
Where's the fun in that? I keep losing the note anyway.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-14 20:55:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693

Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!

My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ken Blake
2019-11-14 21:55:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-11-14 23:17:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with was
"4*ATN(1)"....r
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:30:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses
the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Post by RH Draney
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with
was "4*ATN(1)"....r
Make the computer do the work!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2019-11-15 12:20:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses
the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Post by RH Draney
Back when I was writing programs in BASIC, the dodge I came up with
was "4*ATN(1)"....r
Make the computer do the work!
The computer has to do the work even if you spell out the digits, and my
way you get the full precision that the interpreter is capable of...if
the function call bothers you, assign the expression above to a variable
at the start of the program and make it do a symbol table lookup instead
thereafter....r
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 16:05:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said in
another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make frequent typos.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 16:34:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
No, I'm fine with the decimal places, it was the inadvertent 3.141*6*9 I
was being picky about. Though significant figures are what's important in
dealing with rounding.
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said
in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make frequent
typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 19:08:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just said
in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make
frequent typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
Actually I use more than two (about five). But I usually say
"two-finger" since it's a common way to describe non-standard typing.
I use a few more than you - in fact, eight altogether. For the
spacebar[1], I also use one of my thumbs (which, I'm told, is one more
than a flamingo can manage).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
[1] first draft: "spacebra" - the mind boggles.
Peter Moylan
2019-11-16 00:20:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I understand now. Sorry for misunderstanding you, as I just
said in another message. I'm a terrible two-finger typist and make
frequent typos.
Well, you use twice as many fingers as I do!
My first wife trained as an art teacher, so naturally the school
assigned her to teach sewing and typing. After a while, her observing my
hunt-and-peck style prompted her to teach me to type. That was before I
had a computer. I learnt on a manual (non-electric) typewriter. That
gave me a head start once I did become a heavy computer user.

It's so obviously an essential skill these days that I tend to forget
that most computer users have had no typing training.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:35:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:31:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:35:02 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without
being aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Also referencing some (state?) legislature that decreed pi as 3.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 15:07:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:35:02 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Also referencing some (state?) legislature that decreed pi as 3.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's in the Bible, fer cryin' out loud.
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 16:02:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable. It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu. In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Ah! Yes of course. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Kerr-Mudd,John. What
I sent was a terrible typo. I of course meant 3.141593
--
Ken
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 20:11:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes. The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of
characters ("token") as a variable. It is a convention common
in the Unix milieu. In programming, using descriptive
variable names is preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without
being aware of this. Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to
learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He
wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value
of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=
3.141693
Nice try! How about 3.0 instead!
My attempt; pi=3.14159 (to 6 sig figs)
I think almost anybody else would have understood that six decimal
places was what was meant.
I think he wasn't worrying about that but objecting to the particular
value you gave, after the 141.
Ah! Yes of course. Sorry for misunderstanding you, Kerr-Mudd,John.
What I sent was a terrible typo. I of course meant 3.141593
No worries.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-14 22:00:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
That's not addressing; that's a bitwise AND operation. If you want to
call(&Deity);
Less technial is OMG.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:32:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:00:34 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:29:46 +0000, Richard Heathfield
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -,
someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and
they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
That's not addressing; that's a bitwise AND operation. If you want to
call(&Deity);
Less technial is OMG.
Other Gods are Available?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-14 22:25:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like
1:10.
I don't think that's right.

"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.

[...]

"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
200,000 mcg — can cause:

* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945

(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:52:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for>
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like>
1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
--
athel
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-15 08:21:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose for>
digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's more like>
1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.

/dps
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 09:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:49:54 PM UTC-8, Athel
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:08:36 AM UTC-7, Athel> >
[ … ]
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Yes. Among well known substances vitamin A rivals digitalis in its>> >>
therapeutic index. As far as I remember the minimum effective dose
for>> >> digitalis is about half the lethal dose. For vitamin A it's
more like>> >> 1:10.
I don't think that's right.
Probably you're right. (I tried to protect myself with "As far as I>
remember".) Many years (getting on for 50) ago I read about a man in>
England who died from vitamin A poisoning. He was taking so much that>
his skin was orange (I wonder if the Donald eats a lot of carrots with>
his hamberders). His doctor knew about the vitamin A tablets, and>
thought he was just on the safe side. What he didn't know was that in>
addition to the vitamin A tablets his patient was drinking great>
quantities of the liquid from boiling carrots each day.
"The recommended daily amount of vitamin A is 900 micrograms (mcg)
for adult men and 700 mcg for adult women.
[...]
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-vitamin-a/art-20365945
(They're glossing over the different effectiveness of various
carotenes.)
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.
Indeed, though the stories may be confused and exaggerated. Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears. In his case it was
probably due to eating dogs' livers when he was starving.

On the other hand Gerrit de Veer, a participant in the Dutch
exploration of Novaya Zemlya in the 16th century, reported severe
symptoms (but not, I think, death) in men who had consumed polar bear
liver.
--
athel
RH Draney
2019-11-15 10:07:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:49:54 PM UTC-8, Athel
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Too much vitamin A can be harmful. Even a single large dose — over
* Nausea
* Vomiting
* Vertigo
* Blurry vision"
Also, stay away from polar bear liver.
Indeed, though the stories may be confused and exaggerated. Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears. In his case it was
probably due to eating dogs' livers when he was starving.
On the other hand Gerrit de Veer, a participant in the Dutch exploration
of Novaya Zemlya in the 16th century, reported severe symptoms (but not,
I think, death) in men who had consumed polar bear liver.
My sister was a nurse in central Alaska...she says the Inuit were prone
to coming down with hypercarotenemia after the occasional big
celebration in which huge quantities of polar bear liver were consumed,
usually by the men, usually showing off, and usually when a lot of
drinking had also been going on....

The nutrient I most associate with a narrow range of dosages between
effectiveness and toxicity is zinc...skirted the upper edge of that
range myself a few times when I was trying to treat a cold with zinc
lozenges that were a higher dosage than what I had taken in the
past...the first thing to go, by the way, is your sense of taste....r
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 12:07:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/11/2019 09:10, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
<snip>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Xavier
Mertz, the Swiss explorer thought to have died from vitamin A toxicity,
died in Antarctica, where there are no polar bears.
That's not actually true, or at least not all the time. There are loads
of polar bears in Antarctica; attracted by the prospect of a penguin
supper (and, contrary to popular opinion, they can get the wrappers off
just fine), they hitch down any way they can - cruise ships, tramp
steamers, submarines, spend a few weeks down there generally stuffing
themselves silly, and then make their slow, leisurely way back home,
often floating on their backs but sometimes sailing an occasional
iceberg if it happens to be going in the right direction.

The reason people think there aren't any is that they are masters (and
mistresses) of concealment. If, as they journey through the trackless
icy wastes with a blizzard raging around them, they encounter a solitary
human, it's quite obviously time for lunch; but if there are several,
well, polar bears have learned to be wary. Since the easiest way not to
be bothered by humans is for the humans not to know you're around, these
enormous white-furred beasts will hurtle across the pristine
polar-bear-coloured snow, rushing past the magnificent
polar-bear-coloured glaciers and snowfalls and ice ridges, until they at
last reach the Meteorological Research Station, where they are at last
able to hide themselves round the back, in those big bins with lids on.

It is, of course, true that neither David Attenborough nor anyone else
has ever clapped eyes on a polar bear in the Antarctic, but that just
goes to show how *good* they are at hiding.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Moylan
2019-11-14 23:14:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.

These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Snidely
2019-11-21 10:26:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.
Transportability. But the tomatoes bred for tomato paste still have a
lot of flavor, at least as canned.
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.

/dps
--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain
charles
2019-11-21 10:56:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.
Transportability. But the tomatoes bred for tomato paste still have a
lot of flavor, at least as canned.
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.
Make chutney
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
musika
2019-11-21 12:13:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.
Transportability. But the tomatoes bred for tomato paste still have a
lot of flavor, at least as canned.
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.
Make chutney
I loved my mother's green tomato chutney.
--
Ray
UK
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-21 19:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.
Make chutney
That's no solution if you don't like the resulting chutney.
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-21 16:29:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:17:13 AM UTC-8, Peter Young
I've seen variously coloured carrots in our local farm market, but
not recently.
I pass by a greengrocer several times a week where the outdoor
vegetable stand usually has bunches of carrots of various colours.
Memory says they're labelled organic, and people who are fussy about
the vegetables they grow will often cultivate older versions rather
than have everything look the same, as it does in most supermarkets.
I don't know if they sell heirloom tomatoes where you live, but they
are often oddly shaped with different colours and superb flavour
compared with mainstream tomatoes. I love them, especially in
salads.
Tomatoes are a classic case of the taste being bred out. They've been
bred for some other quality - size, perhaps, or shelf life - and as a
side-effect most of the taste was lost.
When I was in Israel in 1996 I observed that the Israeli plant breeders
had achieved something that even the Dutch hadn't managed; tomatoes
with no trace of any taste whatsoever.
Post by Snidely
Transportability. But the tomatoes bred for tomato paste still have a
lot of flavor, at least as canned.
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because they
still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.
/dps
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2019-11-22 00:32:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
These days I eat mainly the small varieties of tomato, because
they still have a tomato taste. That's what I'm growing in my back
yard.
Cherry, grape, Roma? I've done them all. Beefsteak were in issue in
Oregon, unless you liked canning green tomatoes at the end of the
season.
So far it's been cherry tomatoes, because that is what is self-sown at
the end of each season. My wife prefers Roma, but the plants she bought
are not thriving in the heat.

Cherry tomatoes are notable for continuing to grow well, at a time when
I'm having crop failures with practically everything else I plant. The
climate has changed so much in my lifetime - and the temperature rise
here is so much greater than the global average rise - that I have to
re-think what is worth growing.

Moving on from vegetables to ornamental plants, I have to say that our
grevillias are doing particularly well. Those are plants that, I assume,
evolved in hot and dry areas.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:30:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
That's what killed the flamingos.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:37:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance you would
say pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant. "This also simplifies modifying the program, should
the value of pi change."
In an expanding universe, and assuming no new matter is being created,
space should become flatter; therefore pi should approach a constant value.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-11-15 00:39:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
Only if the deity is a mouse.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-15 06:52:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
...
Once, in a group of friends - not close ones, fortunately -, someone
accidentally referred to an absent person as "big $name", and they
grudgingly admitted that I was "little $name" to them.
Was ey an Eskimo?
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
By &Deity; I think you're right!
Ah, I C you know the right way to address a deity!
No, you address a deity in the vocative: "O &Deity;".
Only if the deity is a mouse.
And if it's a table (as in the declension of "mensa" that was in my
first Latin grammar)?
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:10:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Too much of anything can be poisonous. That's kind of what "too much" means.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 15:48:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
I always suspected something of the kind.
Too much Vitamin A can be poisonous.
Too much of anything can be poisonous. That's kind of what "too much" means.
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderful." Mae West
--
Ken
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:22:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.

On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."

(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
But live flamingos don't eat carrots; only dead
flamingos do.
Talking of dead flamingos, the word "flamingo" appeared in the Guinness
Book of Names, in the category of notable boat names. It took me a while
to work out why.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 18:01:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
--
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both
called users? ---Clifford Stoll
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 18:27:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
There are several other names associated with the tale - which is why I
wrote "(attrib)".
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-18 14:01:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die.
And they *do* die... eventually.
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire (attrib)
replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
There are several other names associated with the tale - which is why I
wrote "(attrib)".
Fair enough.
--
When Chayefsky created Howard Beale, could he have imagined
Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, and the World Wrestling
Federation? ---Roger Ebert
CDB
2019-11-18 15:32:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[not dead till they`re pink and dead
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
On being informed that coffee is a slow poison, Voltaire
(attrib) replied: "Slow it must be indeed, for I have sipped it
for 75 years."
(Voltaire is said to have drunk 50+ cups of coffee per day.)
I thought that was Balzac --- maybe both.
There are several other names associated with the tale - which is
why I wrote "(attrib)".
Fair enough.
I don't remember the names, but in a version I heard, someone told a
more recent Frenchman that tobacco was a slow poison, and he replied "On
n'est pas pressé."
Madhu
2019-11-15 02:25:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Indeed.

I botched it up when cutpasting . FWIW Here's the original:

%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to constants;
instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every appearance, the
variable PI can be given that value with a DATA statement and used instead
of the longer form of the constant. This also simplifies modifying the
program, should the value of pi change.
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 11:36:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
It's very simple. Imagine you're writing a program which uses the
value of pi. Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of
that constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place,
pi=3.141693
Indeed.
%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to
constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every
appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA
statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This
also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change.
Always good to hedge your bets!
Post by Madhu
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2019-11-15 15:50:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Madhu
%
The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to
constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every
appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA
statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This
also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change.
Always good to hedge your bets!
I don't know. I don't trust people who have their fingers in too many
Pis.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.
Robert R. Coveyou
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 02:27:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)

I generally just stick it in a macro:

#define PI 3.14159265358979323846

Pi to 20dp is easy to remember because:

Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-11-15 15:57:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
I know a variation of that:

Sir, I send a rhyme excelling,
In sacred truth and rigid spelling,
Numerical sprites elucidate,
For me the lexicon's dull weight,
If nature gain, who can complain,
Tho' Dr Johnson fulminate?

But that's far more decimal places than I ever need, so I sometimes use

How I like (or "Can I have") a large container of coffee

to which I've added

cream and sugar

But even that is way more decimal places that I ever need. 3.14 is
usually good enough for me.
--
Ken
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 17:02:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Sir, I bear a rhyme excelling
In mystic force and magic spelling;
Celestial sprites elucidate
All my own striving can't relate.
    Sir, I send a rhyme excelling,
    In sacred truth and rigid spelling,
    Numerical sprites elucidate,
    For me the lexicon's dull weight,
    If nature gain, who can complain,
    Tho' Dr Johnson fulminate?
But that's far more decimal places than I ever need, so I sometimes use
    How I like (or "Can I have") a large container of coffee
to which I've added
    cream and sugar
But even that is way more decimal places that I ever need. 3.14 is
usually good enough for me.
I don't see how. Even with my 20dp, given the diameter of the observable
universe I underestimate its circumference by a good 2,326+km.

If ever I want to travel around the edge of the observable universe (and
it's definitely on my bucket list), I'm going to need to plan my trip
with rather more than 20dp if I don't want to run out of Diesel right at
the end.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:59:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Java and Python have the values built into the standard libraries
(Math.PI & math.pi, respectively). Do the C or C++ libraries not
provide that now?
--
Most Americans are too civilized to hang skulls from baskets, having
been headhunters, of course, only as recently as Vietnam.
---Kinky Friedman
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 18:27:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Java and Python have the values built into the standard libraries
(Math.PI & math.pi, respectively). Do the C or C++ libraries not
provide that now?
POSIX does, I think. It calls it M_PI or something like that.

But any C programmer who can't remember pi to 20 places should probably
take up Python.

<g,d&r>
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Adam Funk
2019-11-18 14:02:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Richard Heathfield
"$name" is some sort of computer lingo?
Yes.  The $ prefix signifies the contiguous chunk of characters
("token") as a variable.  It is a convention common in the Unix
milieu.  In programming, using descriptive variable names is
preferred to using simple X's and Y's.
I can't believe Peter has been around Usenet this long without being
aware of this.  Seriously??
I didn't answer the question because I don't believe he wants to learn
this. Even if I explain it now, he'll ask again next time. He wouldn't
touch "some kind of computer lingo" with a ten-foot page turning
device.
It's very simple.  Imagine you're writing a program which uses the value
of pi.  Instead of writing 3.141592 at every instance
You should never do that.
you would say
pi=3.141592 and use "$pi" instead wherever it appears instead of that
constant.
You should never do that either. Rounded to the sixth place, pi=3.141693
Was that deliberate? (4th decimal place)
#define PI 3.14159265358979323846
Java and Python have the values built into the standard libraries
(Math.PI & math.pi, respectively). Do the C or C++ libraries not
provide that now?
POSIX does, I think. It calls it M_PI or something like that.
But any C programmer who can't remember pi to 20 places should probably
take up Python.
<g,d&r>
I know it to 26 places, as it happens, but having it built in reduces
the possibility of typing errors in the macro.
--
The [music] business would be a good thing, except that it's
dominated by drug addicts and businessmen. ---Tom Scholz
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 14:57:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I finally got around to ordering a debit card for small purchases.
The bank sent me one, but it is the same color and appearance as my
credit card from the same bank.
That really annoys me. I used to have a credit card with a "Visa" label
on it, and a debit card issued by my building society. That worked,
trouble-free, for me. But then the building society outsourced the debit
card to Visa, so now I have two cards labelled "Visa". That has wrecked
the intuition that "Visa" means "credit card".
I have four VISA cards and three MasterCards (and a Discover card). Three
of the Visas and one of the MasterCards are issued by the same bank (it's
useful to have one used for deductible items, not that that means much
any more after the Trump "tax reduction," one that amasses "points," and
one with a lower interest rate that can be used for the occasional large
purchase), and one of the Visas is my only debit card -- not that I wanted
a debit card, but it's the ATM card and normally it lives inside its
little paper envelope in a separate part of the wallet. The three Master-
Cards are from different banks, because they are "store cards" that give
rebates on purchases at the stores that issue them, and "points" for
their use elsewhere.
We still get "cash advance" fees now and then, when my wife accidentally
withdraws cash from the credit account.
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Katy Jennison
2019-11-15 16:03:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I finally got around to ordering a debit card for small purchases.
The bank sent me one, but it is the same color and appearance as my
credit card from the same bank.
That really annoys me. I used to have a credit card with a "Visa" label
on it, and a debit card issued by my building society. That worked,
trouble-free, for me. But then the building society outsourced the debit
card to Visa, so now I have two cards labelled "Visa". That has wrecked
the intuition that "Visa" means "credit card".
I have four VISA cards and three MasterCards (and a Discover card). Three
of the Visas and one of the MasterCards are issued by the same bank (it's
useful to have one used for deductible items, not that that means much
any more after the Trump "tax reduction," one that amasses "points," and
one with a lower interest rate that can be used for the occasional large
purchase), and one of the Visas is my only debit card -- not that I wanted
a debit card, but it's the ATM card and normally it lives inside its
little paper envelope in a separate part of the wallet. The three Master-
Cards are from different banks, because they are "store cards" that give
rebates on purchases at the stores that issue them, and "points" for
their use elsewhere.
We still get "cash advance" fees now and then, when my wife accidentally
withdraws cash from the credit account.
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Keep them all in different places. I have one John Lewis reward card,
which I use for routine credit card purchases in stores, coffee-shops
etc, and which I keep in my wallet; one credit card for use abroad
(because it gives the best exchange rate) which lives with my passport;
one which has a deliberately-low credit limit, for internet purchases,
so that if it's fraudulently skimmed they can't get away with thousands,
and that card stays at home; and a credit card (which I hardly ever use)
from the bank, and of course a debit card, in a separate part of my wallet.
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2019-11-15 22:25:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 16:03:43 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Keep the debit card in a different part of the wallet.
Keep them all in different places. I have one John Lewis reward card,
which I use for routine credit card purchases in stores, coffee-shops
etc, and which I keep in my wallet; one credit card for use abroad
(because it gives the best exchange rate) which lives with my passport;
one which has a deliberately-low credit limit, for internet purchases,
so that if it's fraudulently skimmed they can't get away with thousands,
and that card stays at home; and a credit card (which I hardly ever use)
from the bank, and of course a debit card, in a separate part of my wallet.
Females, and certain males, have an advantage in being able to keep
cards on their person in separate places. Most males have a wallet
kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't that many separate places in
which to put a card. Females, and certain males, have the advantage
of being able to carry a voluminous purse.

I don't even know where my card is that I use for internet purchases.
It's tucked away in some drawer, but the information is stored in my
PayPal account. I use PayPal for all online purchases.

I carry one credit and one debit card and one store (Wawa) gasoline
card. I don't like sitting on a wallet any fatter than it needs to
be.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 22:49:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Females, and certain males, have an advantage in being able to keep
cards on their person in separate places. Most males have a wallet
kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't that many separate places in
which to put a card.
The last clause is a truly astonishing and counterfactual statement.

(The first sentence is also bizarre, given that male clothing typically
has pockets and female clothing typically doesn't. Maybe some arcane
sense of "on their person" is intended.) (Why isn't TC agitating for
gendered plural pronouns?)
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-16 02:00:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Most males have a wallet
kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't that many separate places in
which to put a card.
True. I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets".
One is a conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards,
the other is smaller and only has space for cards.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2019-11-16 03:16:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True. I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-16 18:34:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-16 19:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-17 08:03:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
I had the opposite problem in Paris 10 days ago. I tried to use a bus
ticket bought a couple of years ago, which looked exactly like a new
one. The machines (at least three) said it was unreadable. Apparently
they had changed suppliers and the new readers can't read old tickets.
--
athel
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-17 08:31:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
I had the opposite problem in Paris 10 days ago. I tried to use a bus
ticket bought a couple of years ago, which looked exactly like a new
one. The machines (at least three) said it was unreadable. Apparently
they had changed suppliers and the new readers can't read old tickets.
Backward compatibility isn't what it used to be.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-17 14:01:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
I had the opposite problem in Paris 10 days ago. I tried to use a bus
ticket bought a couple of years ago, which looked exactly like a new
one. The machines (at least three) said it was unreadable. Apparently
they had changed suppliers and the new readers can't read old tickets.
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-
less").

The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology. The same thing
happened when the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Library
Science installed an electronic circulation system starting in the
1970s (and eventually eliminated the card catalogue) -- it too got
replaced some years later.
Tak To
2019-11-17 21:01:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
I had the opposite problem in Paris 10 days ago. I tried to use a bus
ticket bought a couple of years ago, which looked exactly like a new
one. The machines (at least three) said it was unreadable. Apparently
they had changed suppliers and the new readers can't read old tickets.
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-
less").
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.

The biggest mistake of the MTA was of course the failure to
partner with the banks and other deployers of payment systems
(e.g., parking meters) to make the medium as ubiquitous
as possible. Perhaps the charter of the MTA makes it difficult
to have large scale collaboration projects with other
institutions, but I think a director with business and technical
foresight could have done much better.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The same thing
happened when the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Library
Science installed an electronic circulation system starting in the
1970s (and eventually eliminated the card catalogue) -- it too got
replaced some years later.
I have observed many cases in which the decisions on enterprise-
wide technologies are left to people without the requisite
knowledge or foresight.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-18 13:42:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call
"contact-less").
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.
That's called "leapfrogging." The former technology had been in
development for, presumably, decades. The latter was begun after
a long-term commitment to the former had been made.
Post by Tak To
The biggest mistake of the MTA was of course the failure to
partner with the banks and other deployers of payment systems
(e.g., parking meters)
No such parking meters were installed around here for decades. NYC
apparently uses them everywhere now. They were tried on several
commercial streets in Jersey City and the individual parking meters
have been returned to the individual parking spaces.
Post by Tak To
to make the medium as ubiquitous
as possible. Perhaps the charter of the MTA makes it difficult
to have large scale collaboration projects with other
institutions, but I think a director with business and technical
foresight could have done much better.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The same thing
happened when the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Library
Science installed an electronic circulation system starting in the
1970s (and eventually eliminated the card catalogue) -- it too got
replaced some years later.
I have observed many cases in which the decisions on enterprise-
wide technologies are left to people without the requisite
knowledge or foresight.
Too bad you didn't read the next paragraph about my professor who was
a world expert in both computing and library science (and linguistics
and psychology). And the very definition of "nebbish."
Tak To
2019-11-18 21:59:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call
"contact-less").
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.
That's called "leapfrogging." The former technology had been in
development for, presumably, decades. The latter was begun after
a long-term commitment to the former had been made.
Leapfrogging or merely catching up? It was not clear that
MTA's MetroCard system was state-of-art at the time when it
was rolled out.

It is not clear the new OMNY system will be either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
The biggest mistake of the MTA was of course the failure to
partner with the banks and other deployers of payment systems
(e.g., parking meters)
No such parking meters were installed around here for decades. NYC
apparently uses them everywhere now. They were tried on several
commercial streets in Jersey City and the individual parking meters
have been returned to the individual parking spaces.
Forming a partnership entails coordinating the choices of
technology and the deployment schedules thereof. I'll admit
that it might be difficult if the agencies involved have no
history of cooperation, or that the people in charge have no
vision.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
to make the medium as ubiquitous
as possible. Perhaps the charter of the MTA makes it difficult
to have large scale collaboration projects with other
institutions, but I think a director with business and technical
foresight could have done much better.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The same thing
happened when the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Library
Science installed an electronic circulation system starting in the
1970s (and eventually eliminated the card catalogue) -- it too got
replaced some years later.
I have observed many cases in which the decisions on enterprise-
wide technologies are left to people without the requisite
knowledge or foresight.
Too bad you didn't read the next paragraph about my professor who was
a world expert in both computing and library science (and linguistics
and psychology). And the very definition of "nebbish."
What next paragraph?
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-19 15:24:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.
That's called "leapfrogging." The former technology had been in
development for, presumably, decades. The latter was begun after
a long-term commitment to the former had been made.
Leapfrogging or merely catching up? It was not clear that
MTA's MetroCard system was state-of-art at the time when it
was rolled out.
Whether it was or not, an immense investment had been made in its
development (do you have any idea how many turnstiles and buses
there are in the NYC system)? It could not be abandoned to put
in something newer instead.
Post by Tak To
It is not clear the new OMNY system will be either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Too bad you didn't read the next paragraph about my professor who was
a world expert in both computing and library science (and linguistics
and psychology). And the very definition of "nebbish."
What next paragraph?
The one you deleted.
Tak To
2019-11-19 16:32:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That's called "leapfrogging." The former technology had been in
development for, presumably, decades. The latter was begun after
a long-term commitment to the former had been made.
Leapfrogging or merely catching up? It was not clear that
MTA's MetroCard system was state-of-art at the time when it
was rolled out.
Whether it was or not, an immense investment had been made in its
development (do you have any idea how many turnstiles and buses
there are in the NYC system)? It could not be abandoned to put
in something newer instead.
I was not disputing that. I was disputing the implication of
MTA "being a technical pioneer".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
It is not clear the new OMNY system will be either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Too bad you didn't read the next paragraph about my professor who was
a world expert in both computing and library science (and linguistics
and psychology). And the very definition of "nebbish."
What next paragraph?
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.

Your original message
<d7791579-1bd7-40f8-81d4-***@googlegroups.com>
ended with "... it too got replaced some years later", and the
entire last paragraph was there in my replies
<qqscet$273$***@dont-email.me> and
<qqv47m$esj$***@dont-email.me>.

You, OTOH, have trimmed that off in the very message to which
this is a direct reply.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-19 19:04:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology.
True in general, but NYC was way behind in converting from
tokens to strip cards compared to other metropoles in the world.
Just one year after NYC started testing the MetroCards, Hong
Kong was already testing RFID smart cards. Calling the MTA a
technical pioneer is quite an irony.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
That's called "leapfrogging." The former technology had been in
development for, presumably, decades. The latter was begun after
a long-term commitment to the former had been made.
Leapfrogging or merely catching up? It was not clear that
MTA's MetroCard system was state-of-art at the time when it
was rolled out.
Whether it was or not, an immense investment had been made in its
development (do you have any idea how many turnstiles and buses
there are in the NYC system)? It could not be abandoned to put
in something newer instead.
I was not disputing that. I was disputing the implication of
MTA "being a technical pioneer".
"Rolled out" means 'put into operation'. If you have evidence that
something better than what they installed was already in development
when they started developing theirs, then present it.
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
It is not clear the new OMNY system will be either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Too bad you didn't read the next paragraph about my professor who was
a world expert in both computing and library science (and linguistics
and psychology). And the very definition of "nebbish."
What next paragraph?
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.
The whole description of Vic Yngve simply didn't appear on your system?
Post by Tak To
Your original message
ended with "... it too got replaced some years later", and the
entire last paragraph was there in my replies
You, OTOH, have trimmed that off in the very message to which
this is a direct reply.
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-19 22:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.
The whole description of Vic Yngve simply didn't appear on your system?
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000)
Message-id <d0947d8c-04ac-476f-80cd-***@googlegroups.com>

It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix,
but having learned COMIT II.

I suspect that something more relevant to the current subthread
is that some organizations require lots of dotted-eyes and crossed-tees
between RFP and deployment, or that the tools for preparing the deployment
aren't able to expedite the tasks.

[Side column: One of the stories at Intel Back When was how long it took
to design and simulate the i286. New tools put in place after it was done
allowed the i186 to be started, completed, and rolled out
in months instead of years,
and those appeared on the street at almost the same time.]

/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-20 14:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.
The whole description of Vic Yngve simply didn't appear on your system?
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000)
It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix,
but having learned COMIT II.
No, I don't think I mentioned COMIT II in the paragraph in question, but
I did allude to that earlier message.
Post by s***@gmail.com
I suspect that something more relevant to the current subthread
is that some organizations require lots of dotted-eyes and crossed-tees
between RFP and deployment, or that the tools for preparing the deployment
aren't able to expedite the tasks.
[Side column: One of the stories at Intel Back When was how long it took
to design and simulate the i286. New tools put in place after it was done
allowed the i186 to be started, completed, and rolled out
in months instead of years,
and those appeared on the street at almost the same time.]
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-21 05:23:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.
The whole description of Vic Yngve simply didn't appear on your system?
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000)
It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix,
but having learned COMIT II.
No, I don't think I mentioned COMIT II in the paragraph in question, but
I did allude to that earlier message.
Then please provide more information about the message in question re the paragraph in question.

/dps
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-21 14:09:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
I have trimmed nothing off at the end of your message.
The whole description of Vic Yngve simply didn't appear on your system?
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000)
(Clicking that link yields a Captcha but after I tell it I'm not a robot,
it doesn't take me anywhere at all.)
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix,
but having learned COMIT II.
No, I don't think I mentioned COMIT II in the paragraph in question, but
I did allude to that earlier message.
Then please provide more information about the message in question re the paragraph in question.
I can't find it by merely searching < Yngve >. If I knew how to do a
Boolean search, I would look for < Yngve Chomsky "library science" >,
all of which occur in the paragraph.
Madhu
2019-11-21 15:48:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000) Message-id
(Clicking that link yields a Captcha but after I tell it I'm not a robot,
it doesn't take me anywhere at all.)
It isn't a link. It is the Message-ID header of your post which
(hopefully uniquely) identifies that article.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix, but
having learned COMIT II.
No, I don't think I mentioned COMIT II in the paragraph in
question, but I did allude to that earlier message.
Then please provide more information about the message in question
re the paragraph in question.
I can't find it by merely searching < Yngve >. If I knew how to do a
Boolean search, I would look for < Yngve Chomsky "library science" >,
all of which occur in the paragraph.
It is the same message with that Message-ID which was posted above
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-21 16:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000) Message-id
(Clicking that link yields a Captcha but after I tell it I'm not a robot,
it doesn't take me anywhere at all.)
It isn't a link. It is the Message-ID header of your post which
(hopefully uniquely) identifies that article.
What's the point of giving a link (whatever technical term you want
to use) to the very message it appears in?
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's the post about making the sign of the cross at Unix, but
having learned COMIT II.
No, I don't think I mentioned COMIT II in the paragraph in
question, but I did allude to that earlier message.
Then please provide more information about the message in question
re the paragraph in question.
I can't find it by merely searching < Yngve >. If I knew how to do a
Boolean search, I would look for < Yngve Chomsky "library science" >,
all of which occur in the paragraph.
It is the same message with that Message-ID which was posted above
Then it's the wrong one.
Quinn C
2019-11-21 17:17:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Madhu
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I found it, I found it! November 13 (20:29:09 +00000) Message-id
(Clicking that link yields a Captcha but after I tell it I'm not a robot,
it doesn't take me anywhere at all.)
It isn't a link. It is the Message-ID header of your post which
(hopefully uniquely) identifies that article.
What's the point of giving a link (whatever technical term you want
to use) to the very message it appears in?
It isn't, it's an identifier of a different post. It's a shortcoming of
Google Groups that it can't process it properly. My software can, so it
appears as a working link to me.

It used to be possible to manually search for a Message-ID in GG, but I
don't think that works at all any more.
--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-21 21:37:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
It used to be possible to manually search for a Message-ID in GG, but I
don't think that works at all any more.
It is and it does, but you need to tic it off.

/dps (subtle reference to search box features)
Quinn C
2019-11-21 22:14:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Quinn C
It used to be possible to manually search for a Message-ID in GG, but I
don't think that works at all any more.
It is and it does, but you need to tic it off.
/dps (subtle reference to search box features)
OK, on trying again, it works only when one is already in the right
group (then use messageid:...). So it's a two step process now. I may
have to write my own Javascript to get that done ... It used to work
even from inside my client software, before, but that doesn't get any
more updates.

<http://groups.google.com/advanced_search> isn't supported any more.
The continued reduction of features is ridiculous.
--
*Multitasking* /v./ Screwing up several things at once
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-11-18 14:23:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:01:34 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Most males have a wallet kept in a hip pocket, and there aren't
that many separate places in which to put a card.
True.  I'm now resigned to carrying two "wallets". One is a
conventional style with space for banknotes and a few cards, the
other is smaller and only has space for cards.
I do the same, mostly because I have too many cards. I'm down to one
debit card and one credit card, which is a good thing, but there's a
whole lot of other things for which I have to carry a card.
I'm sure we all have to carry a Bus Pass, for example.
I have 2! A recent X3 didn't accept the new one. Perhaps that bus had
been hiding when they went around doing the scanner upgrades.
I had the opposite problem in Paris 10 days ago. I tried to use a bus
ticket bought a couple of years ago, which looked exactly like a new
one. The machines (at least three) said it was unreadable. Apparently
they had changed suppliers and the new readers can't read old tickets.
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-
less").
The use of "contactless" is not false. It is a term-of-art that is
easily misunderstood.

The type of "contact" referred to in "contactless" is the contact
between electrical conductors on the card and in the reader/terminal.

For example the electrical contacts can be seen on this card:
Loading Image...&sp=5a1e0bc3392f1724b4acc8d4d3033a30&anticache=773903

The group of contacts is above "4929".

That card can also be used contactlessly as indicate by the radiating
waves symbol at the bottom left.

When used contactlessly the card may touch the terminal but that is not
the type of "contact" in question. The card does not actually need to
touch the terminal for the transaction to take place, it just needs to
be close enough.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The disadvantage to being a technical pioneer -- as with installing
MetroCard during the 1990s -- is that you then get to invest a huge
capital outlay in replacing it with updated technology. The same thing
happened when the University of Chicago's Graduate School of Library
Science installed an electronic circulation system starting in the
1970s (and eventually eliminated the card catalogue) -- it too got
replaced some years later.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
2019-11-18 16:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:01:34 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
-snip-
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the
readout said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in
replacing the current MetroCard in its little plasticized holder
that they don't give out any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC
subway & bus system will have been converted to a "tap" system
(what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-less").
The use of "contactless" is not false. It is a term-of-art that is
easily misunderstood.
The type of "contact" referred to in "contactless" is the contact
between electrical conductors on the card and in the
reader/terminal.
https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2F
www.barclays.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Flifestyle-images%2Fpersonal%2F
credit-cards%2Fccard_forward_16_9.full.high_quality.png&sp=5a1e0bc3
392f1724b4acc8d4d3033a30&anticache=773903
The group of contacts is above "4929".
That card can also be used contactlessly as indicate by the
radiating waves symbol at the bottom left.
When used contactlessly the card may touch the terminal but that
is not the type of "contact" in question. The card does not
actually need to touch the terminal for the transaction to take
place, it just needs to be close enough.
Yup; I've found that my bus pass seems to work more reliably if I
hold it just above the terminal rather than actually touching the
card-reader with it.

Calling it a "tap system" is a misnomer, as there's no need to make
physical contact. (The "N" in "NFC", innit.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
HVS
2019-11-18 16:53:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 18 Nov 2019, HVS wrote

-snip-

Apologies for the double-post; not quite sure how that happened.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng (30 yrs) and BrEng (36 yrs),
indiscriminately mixed
Adam Funk
2019-11-18 16:48:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:01:34 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
-snip-
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the
readout said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in
replacing the current MetroCard in its little plasticized holder
that they don't give out any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC
subway & bus system will have been converted to a "tap" system
(what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-less").
The use of "contactless" is not false. It is a term-of-art that is
easily misunderstood.
The type of "contact" referred to in "contactless" is the contact
between electrical conductors on the card and in the
reader/terminal.
https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2F
www.barclays.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Flifestyle-images%2Fpersonal%2F
credit-cards%2Fccard_forward_16_9.full.high_quality.png&sp=5a1e0bc3
392f1724b4acc8d4d3033a30&anticache=773903
The group of contacts is above "4929".
That card can also be used contactlessly as indicate by the
radiating waves symbol at the bottom left.
When used contactlessly the card may touch the terminal but that
is not the type of "contact" in question. The card does not
actually need to touch the terminal for the transaction to take
place, it just needs to be close enough.
Yup; I've found that my bus pass seems to work more reliably if I
hold it just above the terminal rather than actually touching the
card-reader with it.
Calling it a "tap system" is a misnomer, as there's no need to make
physical contact. (The "N" in "NFC", innit.)
Visa uses the brand name "payWave" for it, although "wave" is a bit of
an exaggeration too.
--
$2.95!
PLATE O' SHRIMP
Luncheon Special
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-18 18:22:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 06:01:34 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I accidentally swiped my old MetroCard the other day and the readout
said "Expired." (I keep the old one to assist in replacing the current
MetroCard in its little plasticized holder that they don't give out
any more.) But by 2021 the whole NYC subway & bus system will have been
converted to a "tap" system (what in Chicago they falsely call "contact-
less").
The use of "contactless" is not false. It is a term-of-art that is
easily misunderstood.
The type of "contact" referred to in "contactless" is the contact
between electrical conductors on the card and in the reader/terminal.
https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.barclays.co.uk%2Fcontent%2Fdam%2Flifestyle-images%2Fpersonal%2Fcredit-cards%2Fccard_forward_16_9.full.high_quality.png&sp=5a1e0bc3392f1724b4acc8d4d3033a30&anticache=773903
The group of contacts is above "4929".
That card can also be used contactlessly as indicate by the radiating
waves symbol at the bottom left.
When used contactlessly the card may touch the terminal but that is not
the type of "contact" in question. The card does not actually need to
touch the terminal for the transaction to take place, it just needs to
be close enough.
We have both "wave" cards (as on Chicago buses) and "tap" cards (as
on PATH trains -- that's the mini-subway between Newark, Jersey City,
Hoboken, and Manhattan). The latter were introduced in 2008, which is
easy to remember because they gave out free cards (usually $5 initially)
in honor of the centennial (it took them more than a month to process
the request and mail the card).
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-15 15:01:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-5, Adam Funk wrote:

[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
Bestowed on Europe (and thence the rest of the world) an alphabet that is
thoroughly inadequate with regard to letters for sibilants and probably
for vowels.
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:56:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
I was under the impression that the Romans brought orange carrots to
the British Isles, but looking it up I find that the orange ones
originated in C.16 Holland. Never mind.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Bestowed on Europe (and thence the rest of the world) an alphabet that is
thoroughly inadequate with regard to letters for sibilants and probably
for vowels.
--
He [Nixon] is the president of every place in this country which
does not have a bookstore. ---Murray Kempton
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-15 20:19:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[I didn't find anything in the quoted material to prompt the
following!]
What have the Romans done for us anyway?!
I was under the impression that the Romans brought orange carrots to
the British Isles, but looking it up I find that the orange ones
originated in C.16 Holland. Never mind.
That was the flamingos.
Or was it the Robin? maybe rabbits and watercress? Anyway we had a
national road network before they came over here with their (plural)
straight lines and constant baths. And writing and circuses and bridges
and .. anyhow what did they ever do for us?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Adam Funk
2019-11-15 17:57:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
--
I look back with the greatest pleasure to the kindness and hospitality
I met with in Yorkshire, where I spent some of the happiest years of
my life. ---Sabine Baring-Gould
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-15 20:05:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Yeah? Where does the mud get it from then?
--
Sam Plusnet
Richard Heathfield
2019-11-15 20:29:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from.  All clear as mud now.
Yeah?  Where does the mud get it from then?
Carrots?
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter Young
2019-11-15 20:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since
the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Yeah? Where does the mud get it from then?
From drowned carrots, when the sea levels rose at the end of the Ice Age?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Tony Cooper
2019-11-15 22:17:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.

In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild. Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about
not reproducing in captivity.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2019-11-16 09:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild.
Interesting.
Post by Tony Cooper
Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about not reproducing in
captivity.
ObAUE: I'd say they have "a thing about reproducing", rather than
the opposite thing.

A typo or an idiomatic difference?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Wait, was that me? That was pretty good!"
***@vex.net | --Steve Summit
Peter Moylan
2019-11-16 13:43:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild.
Interesting.
Post by Tony Cooper
Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about not reproducing in
captivity.
ObAUE: I'd say they have "a thing about reproducing", rather than
the opposite thing.
A typo or an idiomatic difference?
I agree with Mark's version.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2019-11-16 14:44:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[>> Tony Cooper:]
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track.
It is the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully
reproduced when not in the wild.
Interesting.
Post by Tony Cooper
Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about not reproducing
in captivity.
ObAUE: I'd say they have "a thing about reproducing", rather than
the opposite thing.
A typo or an idiomatic difference?
I agree with Mark's version.
OTOH, not reproducing in captivity seems to be a thing for them.
Tony Cooper
2019-11-16 13:52:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Tony Cooper
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild.
Interesting.
Post by Tony Cooper
Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about not reproducing in
captivity.
ObAUE: I'd say they have "a thing about reproducing", rather than
the opposite thing.
A typo or an idiomatic difference?
Not a typo. Just a personal choice of how to phrase it.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-16 12:53:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:17:08 GMT, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that
a clear plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages
of smoked salmon is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a
more difficult call since the color of carrots and smoked
salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice
salmony color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers' at all--but apparently it doesn't come from
carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene.
Wild salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it
from I don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't
make the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge
up from the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild. Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about
not reproducing in captivity.
Werl, you need to put them together in the same cage with a copious
supply of aphrodisiacal carrots and let nature take it's course, simples.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-16 13:15:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:17:08 GMT, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[
]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that
a clear plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages
of smoked salmon is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a
more difficult call since the color of carrots and smoked
salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour
to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice
salmony color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers' at all--but apparently it doesn't come from
carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene.
Wild salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it
from I don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't
make the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge
up from the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild. Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about
not reproducing in captivity.
Werl, you need to put them together in the same cage with a copious
supply of aphrodisiacal carrots and let nature take it's course, simples.
The flamingos at the Pont de Gau are not captive, and can come and go
as they please, and they do a lot of reproducing. Like visiting
Belgians: on account of confusion between flamant (flamingo) and
Flamand (Fleming), which are pronounced the same, an English
information panel says that Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It
doesn't reveal where Walloons and Bruxellois go to breed.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2019-11-16 13:42:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The flamingos at the Pont de Gau are not captive, and can come and go as
on account of confusion between flamant (flamingo) and Flamand
(Fleming), which are pronounced the same, an English information panel
says that Flemings come to the Camargue to breed. It doesn't reveal
where Walloons and Bruxellois go to breed.
As an extra complication, a flamingo can also be described in French as
"flamand rose" (pink Fleming). Atilf does not support this version, but
Google does, so I suppose it's a common misspelling.

The breeding habits of the Flemish have been adequately described in the
song "Les Flamandes" by Jacques Brel.

Les Flamandes dansent sans rien dire
Sans rien dire aux dimanches sonnants
Les Flamandes dansent sans rien dire
Les Flamandes ça n'est pas causant
Si elles dansent, c'est parce qu'elles ont vingt ans
Et qu'à vingt ans il faut se fiancer
Se fiancer pour pouvoir se marier
Et se marier pour avoir des enfants
C'est ce que leur ont dit leurs parents.

Not very PC, I suppose, but I have known Flemish women like that.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-16 14:46:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.
...

I would think so! Young flamingos aren't supposed to have spots.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-11-18 14:04:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked salmon
is cause for alarm. Carrots might be a more difficult call since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
The (horse) race track in Hialeah, Florida is famous for the flock of
flamingos that inhabit the infield lake. There were numerous
complaints when some young flamingos, that had not yet turned color,
were spotted. The track was accused of buying inferior flamingos.
In fact, the flamingos are all hatched and raised at the track. It is
the only place in the US where flamingos have successfully reproduced
when not in the wild. Flamingos and pandas seem to have a thing about
not reproducing in captivity.
They're shy.
--
I thought my life would seem more interesting with a musical
score and a laugh track. ---Calvin
Madhu
2019-11-19 12:45:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice
salmony color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers' at all--but apparently it doesn't come from
carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of
carotene. Wild salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the
shrimps get it from I don't know, but I don't think they eat
carrots either.
not all farmed shrimp apparently - like the white shrimp were recently
introduced in india
Post by Adam Funk
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Adam (Hebrew earth, soil, mud from which he was formed) comes from a
hebrew root which also means red. One of his descendants Edom was named
on the same grounds.

Some arab traditions have god "baking" adam (man) until he was the
perfect brown color.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-19 14:42:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Adam Funk
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice
salmony color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or
theconsumers' at all--but apparently it doesn't come from
carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of
carotene. Wild salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the
shrimps get it from I don't know, but I don't think they eat
carrots either.
not all farmed shrimp apparently - like the white shrimp were recently
introduced in india
Post by Adam Funk
From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
This reminds me of what I've observed at the Parc Ornithologique du
Pont de Gau in the Camargue that we go to sometimes. Only adult
flamingos are pink. The young 'uns are white or grey. They don't make
the pink colour themselves, but get it from stuff they dredge up from
the mud.
Aha, the same place carrots get it from. All clear as mud now.
Adam (Hebrew earth, soil, mud from which he was formed) comes from a
hebrew root which also means red.
I was never clear on how "dam", meaning blood, which is red and which
people have, fit into all that.

(For those following at home, 'adamah means earth and 'adom means red.)
Post by Madhu
One of his descendants Edom was named on the same grounds.
"Grounds", eh?

I imagine it's more likely that the story of the red-haired Edom in the
Bible is an explanation of why there was a neighboring people who the
Jews called Edom.
Post by Madhu
Some arab traditions have god "baking" adam (man) until he was the
perfect brown color.
:-)
--
Jerry Friedman
b***@aol.com
2019-11-15 18:31:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 13, 2019 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-7, Athel
[ … ]
The majority of store employees can visually ascertain that a
clear
plastic bag labeled "onions", but contains packages of smoked
salmon
is cause for alarm.   Carrots might be a more difficult call
since the
color of carrots and smoked salmon is similar.
Not entirely surprising as they owe their colour to the same dye.
I do not believe that salmon eat carrots.
I didn't ask you to! Carrots and salmon both owe their colour to
carotene.
Farmed salmon get carotenoid supplements to give them a nice salmony
color--I don't know whether it benefits their health or theconsumers'
at all--but apparently it doesn't come from carrots.
Yes, but carrots are not the only natural source of carotene. Wild
salmon get it mainly from shrimps. Where the shrimps get it from I
don't know, but I don't think they eat carrots either.
 From scavenging dead flamingos, of course.
So what you're saying is that flamingos eat carrots.
Only dead flamingos.
So what you're saying is that carrots are poisonous.
No, of course not. If they were poisonous a live flamingo that ate a
carrot would die. But live flamingos don't eat carrots; only dead
flamingos do.
Aren't they feeding the carrots, rather?
The German equivalent of "pushing up daisies" is "looking at the
radishes from below". Why not carrots?
Indeed, Carrots and Styx...
--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
Tony Cooper
2019-11-16 01:38:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:59:01 -0500, Quinn C
And I've said already several times that I'll accept any polite
reference that doesn't make it look as if I were male or female. But
because you're being such a PITA about it, I'll now only accept "they"
from you, specifically.
I can handle not being accepted by you. Easily.
Great! Then I hope you'll extend the same support to trans people's
needs, like changing sex/gender markers on drivers licenses or birth
records to a third option like "X".
Good Lord, no! There are two functions of a driver's license: First,
to show that the holder has qualified for one, and second to provide
identification to any policeman who has reason to ask for it.

The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.

The driver's license is also used as identification for other
purposes, but they are not legal requirements, and the state should
not change the license information because its used for identification
when presenting a credit card or somesuch.

If a need for a non-sex/gender-stated form of ID is established, then
it should be something other than the driver's license.

As to birth records, if what is stated on the birth record is what was
determined at the time of birth, then they are correct as-is.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2019-11-16 20:28:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:59:01 -0500, Quinn C
And I've said already several times that I'll accept any polite
reference that doesn't make it look as if I were male or female. But
because you're being such a PITA about it, I'll now only accept "they"
from you, specifically.
I can handle not being accepted by you. Easily.
Great! Then I hope you'll extend the same support to trans people's
needs, like changing sex/gender markers on drivers licenses or birth
records to a third option like "X".
Good Lord, no! There are two functions of a driver's license: First,
to show that the holder has qualified for one, and second to provide
identification to any policeman who has reason to ask for it.
Those are very close to the same function.

But there is another function: as identification to others besides
policemen. For example, many doctors offices ask for it, and they are
also widely used for that in airports (although that's going away).
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2019-11-17 02:15:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:59:01 -0500, Quinn C
And I've said already several times that I'll accept any polite
reference that doesn't make it look as if I were male or female. But
because you're being such a PITA about it, I'll now only accept "they"
from you, specifically.
I can handle not being accepted by you. Easily.
Great! Then I hope you'll extend the same support to trans people's
needs, like changing sex/gender markers on drivers licenses or birth
records to a third option like "X".
Good Lord, no! There are two functions of a driver's license: First,
to show that the holder has qualified for one, and second to provide
identification to any policeman who has reason to ask for it.
Those are very close to the same function.
But there is another function: as identification to others besides
policemen. For example, many doctors offices ask for it, and they are
also widely used for that in airports (although that's going away).
Ahhhhh...you snipped this from that post:

"The driver's license is also used as identification for other
purposes, but they are not legal requirements, and the state should
not change the license information because its used for identification
when presenting a credit card or somesuch."

It's a function of convenience, but not a function that is a
requirement, but it is a requirement if it's a policeman doing the
asking when you are a driver of a vehicle.

Your doctor's office can ask to see a proof of identity*, but they
can't require you to provide a driver's license. We do because that's
the most available proof of identity for most of us.

I did today. I started some physical therapy for a shoulder problem
and the PT wanted proof of insurance and proof of identity.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-11-18 14:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.
Because police checks in your neck of the woods are always accompanied
by a strip search?

It's transphobic to require a genitals marker rather than a gender
marker on a non-medical document. It has consequences similar to racial
profiling.

I have now reached a state in my presentation where "Sir" and "Madam"
from strangers like retail staff is both quite frequent. So how is an F
or M on my license going to help?

And we haven't even mentioned intersex people. While German officaldom
isn't particularly trans-friendly, they now have to provide X markers
to intersex people who ask for it, following a Constitutional Court
decision.
--
Failover worked - the system failed, then it was over.
(freely translated from a remark by Dietz Proepper
in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)
Tony Cooper
2019-11-18 16:29:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:58:25 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.
Because police checks in your neck of the woods are always accompanied
by a strip search?
It's transphobic to require a genitals marker rather than a gender
marker on a non-medical document. It has consequences similar to racial
profiling.
I understand that you have strong feelings on this subject, but you
are over-egging the cake.

Racial profiling is where there is a preconceived attitude about a
particular type of person, and those persons are stopped by the police
based only on the visual aspects.

Gender/sex markers on the driver's license are seen by the police only
after that person is stopped. Presumably the stop was made because
the person violated some law. There is no profiling aspect because
the profile is not known before the stop.

In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-11-18 17:16:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:58:25 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.
Because police checks in your neck of the woods are always accompanied
by a strip search?
It's transphobic to require a genitals marker rather than a gender
marker on a non-medical document. It has consequences similar to racial
profiling.
I understand that you have strong feelings on this subject, but you
are over-egging the cake.
Racial profiling is where there is a preconceived attitude about a
particular type of person, and those persons are stopped by the police
based only on the visual aspects.
Gender/sex markers on the driver's license are seen by the police only
after that person is stopped. Presumably the stop was made because
the person violated some law. There is no profiling aspect because
the profile is not known before the stop.
I didn't say it was profiling, only that it has similar consequences.
You continue to demonstrate a weak grasp of the English language.

But forget the word profiling. People whose appearance doesn't "match"
(in the view of the particular officer) their gender marker are often
subject to suspicion. That's an unfortunate truth even in this day and
age.

An X gender marker would help against that because there is no specific
"matching" appearance. And I don't see how it would hinder
identification. It should help the identification of people like me who
look ambiguous.

How much information is a sex marker anyway in an age where passports
contain fingerprints, iris scans or whatnot?
--
Failover worked - the system failed, then it was over.
(freely translated from a remark by Dietz Proepper
in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)
Tony Cooper
2019-11-18 21:08:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:16:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:58:25 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
The information on the driver's license should be sufficient to assure
the policeman that the presenter of the license is the person who was
granted the license. The male/female information is important in
ascertaining if the presenter is the valid holder of that license.
Because police checks in your neck of the woods are always accompanied
by a strip search?
It's transphobic to require a genitals marker rather than a gender
marker on a non-medical document. It has consequences similar to racial
profiling.
I understand that you have strong feelings on this subject, but you
are over-egging the cake.
Racial profiling is where there is a preconceived attitude about a
particular type of person, and those persons are stopped by the police
based only on the visual aspects.
Gender/sex markers on the driver's license are seen by the police only
after that person is stopped. Presumably the stop was made because
the person violated some law. There is no profiling aspect because
the profile is not known before the stop.
I didn't say it was profiling, only that it has similar consequences.
You continue to demonstrate a weak grasp of the English language.
I have a *very* good understanding of the meaning of the word
"similar". A traffic stop for a valid reason that results in the
officer seeing the offender's driver's license is in *no way* similar
to racial profiling that results in a stop.

The consequences are in *no way* similar. Whatever attitude the
gender marker difference makes to the officer does not compare at any
level to the fear of "driving black", unnecessary and unjustifiable
delays, and public humiliation that a person stopped for racial
profiling endures.

To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.

Yours here is a PTD defense of a gross error: attack the other
person's intelligence and grasp of language.

The appropriate response from you would be to admit that the
comparison was faulty-to-the-max.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-19 15:21:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
Tony Cooper
2019-11-19 15:43:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:21:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
For a person who whines incessantly about his posts being viewed as
"snippets", you display mega-hypocrisy in your snippage.

The two things said to "similar" were gender markers on driver's
licenses and racial profiling. That is like saying that purse
snatching and rape are similar crimes because women are the usual
victims.

The gender markers on driver's licenses have nothing to do with
attacks on transsexuals. Unless, of course, you have some evidence
that the attackers ask first for proof of identity.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-19 19:03:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 07:21:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
For a person who whines incessantly about his posts being viewed as
"snippets", you display mega-hypocrisy in your snippage.
I have never used the word "snippets."
Post by Tony Cooper
The two things said to "similar" were gender markers on driver's
licenses and racial profiling. That is like saying that purse
snatching and rape are similar crimes because women are the usual
victims.
The gender markers on driver's licenses have nothing to do with
attacks on transsexuals. Unless, of course, you have some evidence
that the attackers ask first for proof of identity.
Now you sound like Jim Jordan. What appears on a driver's license
is uninteresting in the larger context of why transsexuals might
not want their gender status publicized unnecessarily.
Quinn C
2019-11-19 17:15:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
Please don't use "transsexual" when referring to all transgender
people.

It just recently occurred to me that one of the reasons for this word
falling out of favor is the kind of reaction I got from some people
here - notably Rey - upon coming out. An attitude based on the idea
that being trans is all about sex (in either or both senses.) It isn't.

I was under the impression that that's similar for "homosexual". Plus,
both terms have this baggage of medicalization.
--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance.
Robert R. Coveyou
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-19 19:06:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
Please don't use "transsexual" when referring to all transgender
people.
I'm not referring to people, I'm referring to perceptions.
Post by Quinn C
It just recently occurred to me that one of the reasons for this word
falling out of favor is the kind of reaction I got from some people
here - notably Rey - upon coming out. An attitude based on the idea
that being trans is all about sex (in either or both senses.) It isn't.
I was under the impression that that's similar for "homosexual". Plus,
both terms have this baggage of medicalization.
"homogender" instead?
Quinn C
2019-11-20 19:51:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
Please don't use "transsexual" when referring to all transgender
people.
I'm not referring to people, I'm referring to perceptions.
I don't see what that changes. The word transsexual, being not even in
scare quotes, was your usage, not someone else's. So it should mean
what it currently means, and then it doesn't fit.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
It just recently occurred to me that one of the reasons for this word
falling out of favor is the kind of reaction I got from some people
here - notably Rey - upon coming out. An attitude based on the idea
that being trans is all about sex (in either or both senses.) It isn't.
I was under the impression that that's similar for "homosexual". Plus,
both terms have this baggage of medicalization.
"homogender" instead?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
--
Humans write software and while a piece of software might be
bug free humans are not. - Robert Klemme
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-20 21:08:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
Please don't use "transsexual" when referring to all transgender
people.
I'm not referring to people, I'm referring to perceptions.
I don't see what that changes. The word transsexual, being not even in
scare quotes, was your usage, not someone else's. So it should mean
what it currently means, and then it doesn't fit.
Does it currently mean something other than what it recently meant?
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
It just recently occurred to me that one of the reasons for this word
falling out of favor is the kind of reaction I got from some people
here - notably Rey - upon coming out. An attitude based on the idea
that being trans is all about sex (in either or both senses.) It isn't.
I was under the impression that that's similar for "homosexual". Plus,
both terms have this baggage of medicalization.
"homogender" instead?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Exactly.
Adam Funk
2019-11-25 15:05:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-25 15:24:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
Probably that's the intended meaning, but it's not what "random" means,
even as used by the most statistical illiterate person.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2019-11-25 16:58:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
Probably that's the intended meaning, but it's not what "random" means,
even as used by the most statistical illiterate person.
I'm afraid that's the meaning it's rapidly assuming, for probably the
majority of people.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-25 17:07:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
Probably that's the intended meaning, but it's not what "random" means,
even as used by the most statistical illiterate person.
What's your word, mister smartypants, for an opportunistic attack with
no discoverable motive?

Are you planning to school every news outlet in the country in the
technical meaning of "random"?
Sam Plusnet
2019-11-25 19:30:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your word, mister smartypants, for an opportunistic attack with
no discoverable motive?
"mister smartypants"?

Really?
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-25 19:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your word, mister smartypants, for an opportunistic attack with
no discoverable motive?
"mister smartypants"?
Really?
I'm happy to have introduced you to an American colloquialism.
Adam Funk
2019-11-25 19:52:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What's your word, mister smartypants, for an opportunistic attack with
no discoverable motive?
"mister smartypants"?
Really?
He's cleaning up in comparison to his traditional potty-mouth
responses to his detractors.
--
There's a statute of limitations with the law, but not with
your wife. ---Ray Magliozzi, Car Talk 2011-36
b***@aol.com
2019-11-25 16:39:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
Still, somehow, the victims are randomly chosen from that group.
Post by Adam Funk
--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-25 17:05:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
To claim a similarity of the two would be extremely offensive to those
subject to racial profiling. Those people would be the first to ask
you to brush up on your language skills.
Do you really not know that persons perceived as transsexual are the
single largest group of random murder victims (proportionally)?
I take it (since the implication is that they are targeted) that
"random" there means something like "not known by the attacker"?
And not looking wealthy enough to bother to mug, and so on -- the only
reason for the attack is perceived sexual deviance.

There's recently been a rash of attacks on Ultraorthodox men and boys
in the insular Jewish neighborhoods of Brooklyn. On the rare occasions
when perps have been apprehended, the news always says "Authorities are
considering whether to label it a bias crime." (IIRC that's the legal
term for 'hate crime'.)
Ken Blake
2019-11-18 18:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-18 18:55:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch
and neither did anybody else.
I'd be worried about rolling off if I did that, not to mention that it
doesn't seem like a very comfortable place for the purpose.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2019-11-18 19:07:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch
and neither did anybody else.
I'd be worried about rolling off if I did that, not to mention that it
doesn't seem like a very comfortable place for the purpose.
Same here. I have no idea why they chose that place, nor why they wanted
it be so public.

The only reason I mentioned it was to point that in that case, there was
no rubbernecking of their nudity.
--
Ken
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-18 20:15:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch
and neither did anybody else.
I'd be worried about rolling off if I did that, not to mention that it
doesn't seem like a very comfortable place for the purpose.
No doubt an American car, and those things are huge.
And also no doubt, the roof is springy,
almost like a box spring mattrass.

It should do,

Jan
Tony Cooper
2019-11-18 21:06:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
You did slow down to a crawl, though. 'fess up.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2019-11-18 21:22:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
You did slow down to a crawl, though. 'fess up.
LOL!

On a highway? Nah. I would have gotten creamed by the car behind me.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-11-18 23:31:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch
and neither did anybody else.
You did slow down to a crawl, though.  'fess up.
On a highway? Nah. I would have gotten creamed by the car behind me.
That's what *she* said....r
Mack A. Damia
2019-11-18 21:39:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
I was living in Pittsburgh, and I left about 2:00 am to drive to
Allentown, about three hundred miles.

There was a small parking lot for an MD's office next to the house,
and I always parked there without a problem.

I had a few things to load up in my van, and when I went to the
parking lot, there was another van parked next to me. But it was
rocking up and down, and as I approached, I could hear some moaning,
too.

What to do? I had to make tracks, so I didn't let it faze me, but
when the amorous couple realized what I was doing, they left very
quickly.
Adam Funk
2019-11-20 16:58:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
I was living in Pittsburgh, and I left about 2:00 am to drive to
Allentown, about three hundred miles.
There was a small parking lot for an MD's office next to the house,
and I always parked there without a problem.
I had a few things to load up in my van, and when I went to the
parking lot, there was another van parked next to me. But it was
rocking up and down, and as I approached, I could hear some moaning,
too.
"If the van's rockin'
Don't come knockin'"

bumper sticker which I've heard of but never seen IRL.
Post by Mack A. Damia
What to do? I had to make tracks, so I didn't let it faze me, but
when the amorous couple realized what I was doing, they left very
quickly.
--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
---Calvin
Tony Cooper
2019-11-20 17:21:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
I was living in Pittsburgh, and I left about 2:00 am to drive to
Allentown, about three hundred miles.
There was a small parking lot for an MD's office next to the house,
and I always parked there without a problem.
I had a few things to load up in my van, and when I went to the
parking lot, there was another van parked next to me. But it was
rocking up and down, and as I approached, I could hear some moaning,
too.
"If the van's rockin'
Don't come knockin'"
bumper sticker which I've heard of but never seen IRL.
A variation on this photographed at a house occupied by squatters:

Loading Image...
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2019-11-25 15:06:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Mack A. Damia
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
In this neck of the woods, officers who ticket traffic offenders, and
ask for the driver's license in that process, do not conduct strip
searches. Evidently, they are aware that strip searches on the side
of the road could lead to added congestion by other rubbernecking
motorists.
That reminds of the time about 40 or 50 years ago, when driving on a
highway in Massachusetts, I passed a car that had pulled over on the
side of the road. On the top of the car were a young man and a young
woman, both naked, having sexual intercourse. I didn't stop to watch and
neither did anybody else.
I was living in Pittsburgh, and I left about 2:00 am to drive to
Allentown, about three hundred miles.
There was a small parking lot for an MD's office next to the house,
and I always parked there without a problem.
I had a few things to load up in my van, and when I went to the
parking lot, there was another van parked next to me. But it was
rocking up and down, and as I approached, I could hear some moaning,
too.
"If the van's rockin'
Don't come knockin'"
bumper sticker which I've heard of but never seen IRL.
https://photos.smugmug.com/SCENES-/i-8s2pGgX/0/e2a8b866/XL/2012-04-05-113-XL.jpg
Also good for parties!
--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston
Tony Cooper
2019-11-16 02:05:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:59:01 -0500, Quinn C
And I don't "force" you to use it. If a guest tells you they don't eat
meat or fish, do they force you to serve them eggs?
That's the best you can do? If not informed in advance, if a dinner
guests tells us *at* dinner that he/she is a vegetarian, as good hosts
we are expected to do the best we can to present a meal for them
without meat or fish. As a good guest, the vegetarian makes do with
whatever we come up with. In most cases, the good guest vegetarian
will simply eat the salad, vegetables, and bread, skip the meat or
fish, and not make a fuss.
If a guest who is invited to dinner tells me that he or she will be
offended if I serve them meat or fish, I would uninvite them. Not
because they don't eat meat or fish, but because they took the
aggressive route and stated they'd be offended.
Really? You don't think they have reason to be offended when, after
having had a talk about their diet beforehand, you place a plate with
meat in front of them on the table? And when, being reminded of the
conversation before, you answer that everyone else eats meat or fish,
and they just want to be treated "special"?
Little side trip into fantasy land there? I said a person who has
been invited to dinner informed me they'd be offended if I served them
meat or fish, that I'd uninvite them.

In other words, retract the invitation. They wouldn't be at my home
in the first place.

I don't invite people to my home that are expected to be unpleasant
guests. That preemptive statement saying they will be offended if...
tells me dinner wouldn't go well.

Where do you get the idea that I'd persist in placing meat or fish on
their plate? There might be a serving dish with meat or fish on the
table, but they need not take any.

Maybe your customs are different. Generally, the individual dishes
are on the table but not pre-placed on the diner's plate. The serving
dishes are passed, and people fill their plates then.

Meat and fish are the least of the problems in this. There are many
vegetable dishes that people wouldn't touch with a 10 foot serving
spoon. Okra, in my case.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-11-18 15:00:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Where do you get the idea that I'd persist in placing meat or fish on
their plate?
For the analogy-challenged: You insist on using either "he" (meat) or
"she" (fish). You refuse the vegetarian option "they" (eggs) that I
suggested.
--
Q: What do computer engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.
HVS
2019-11-18 16:50:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:00:47 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
Where do you get the idea that I'd persist in placing meat or fish on
their plate?
For the analogy-challenged: You insist on using either "he" (meat) or
"she" (fish). You refuse the vegetarian option "they" (eggs) that I
suggested.
For the language-challenged: that would be an ovo-vegetarian option.

Cheers, Harvey
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-18 17:14:13 UTC
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Post by HVS
On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:00:47 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
Where do you get the idea that I'd persist in placing meat or
fish on
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
their plate?
For the analogy-challenged: You insist on using either "he" (meat)
or
Post by Quinn C
"she" (fish). You refuse the vegetarian option "they" (eggs) that I
suggested.
Notice that His Royal Highness Prince Andrew Albert Christian Edward,
Duke of York, sees little difference between women and pieces of meat
that exist for his pleasure and that of his late buddy Jeffrey Epstein.
How can he be expected to remamember them after they've served their
purpose?
Post by HVS
For the language-challenged: that would be an ovo-vegetarian option.
Cheers, Harvey
--
athel
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