Discussion:
[en-DE]"stationery"
Add Reply
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 13:33:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
What *is* strange here is that Texas finds that bathroom visits
should depend on how you looked when you were born, rather than at
the time of going to the bathroom.
If I ever visit Texas again, I'll be sorely tempted to piss in a women's
toilet, just to heap scorn on their laws. The "bathroom visits" aspect
is almost orthogonal to the question of birth certificates. Why can't
they just introduce unisex toilets?
I've been in public toilets in both Canada and France where Madame Pipi
had a clear view of me standing at a urinal. I very much doubt that she
got a thrill from looking at my back. If a woman can see a man's back at
a urinal, why can't men see the closed door in a women's facility?
--
I only regret that I have but one shirt to give for my country.
---Abbie Hoffman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 13:34:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:12:25 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at
at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
What *is* strange here is that Texas finds that bathroom visits
should depend on how you looked when you were born, rather than
at the time of going to the bathroom.
/Anders, Denmark.
The Texas bathroom bill was not an attempt to force people to use the
bathroom consistent with their birth sex. Not all bathroom users, at
any rate. It was a bill that attempted to require this in public
schools, public universities, and government buildings. It was not to
be enforced in any other bathroom locations.
I should interject here that it was a ridiculous proposal in the first
place, and the limited application does not make it less ridiculous.
I say that lest someone thinks I found the bill to be in any way
acceptable.
Politicians propose bills like this as a sop to their base. In any
politician's district there are some cause-specific whackos, and if
that district has enough of them, the politician has to throw them a
bone once in a while to keep the district's vote. In Texas, those
cause-specific whackos are in greater numbers than they might be
elsewhere.
A large number of bills of this type are proposed, passed, and then
challenged in the courts and ruled unlawful. The politicians don't
care that the bill will never result in extant law.
Or (in Ohio, for example) that they are mandating something
scientifically impossible.
They can still go
to their district and tell those whacko supporters "I tried. I'm on
your side. Vote for me."
--
The love of money as a possession ... will be recognised for what it
is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal,
semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to
the specialists in mental disease. ---J M Keynes
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:24:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...

Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 15:15:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?

It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.


[1] As opposed to the microbiome, which obviously has lots of kinds of
DNA different from the human kind.
--
I don't quite understand this worship of objectivity in
journalism. Now, just flat-out lying is different from being
subjective. ---Hunter S Thompson
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:48:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?
The correct answer would be "intersex", I guess. But, as I have
explained elsewhere, this is decided by doctors and should be treated
as a medical observation, and maybe not make it into a civil record.
Post by Adam Funk
It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.
I've never heard of such a case, but apparently they exist.

| And yes, if the twins are boy/girl, the girl could end up with some
| male chromosomes and the boy with female chromosomes. Does this have
| visible effects? Sometimes.

<https://www.babycenter.com/0_strange-but-true-one-person-born-with-two-sets-of-dna-a-chim_10364937.bc>
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:25:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?
The correct answer would be "intersex", I guess. But, as I have
explained elsewhere, this is decided by doctors and should be treated
as a medical observation, and maybe not make it into a civil record.
Sure, but as I said earlier, the medical observation of genetic
paternity [1] may differ from what is believed/claimed.


[1] And in some cases, maternity. I learned about chimerae from a
biology teacher who mentioned a case where a father had DNA testing
done because of doubts about his wife's fidelity. The test came back
with him as the father & a close female relative of his wife's as the
mother --- even though he had witnessed the birth & had no doubt about
the child's maternity. It turned out that his wife had subsumed a
twin, which provided the DNA for at least some of her ova.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.
I've never heard of such a case, but apparently they exist.
| And yes, if the twins are boy/girl, the girl could end up with some
| male chromosomes and the boy with female chromosomes. Does this have
| visible effects? Sometimes.
<https://www.babycenter.com/0_strange-but-true-one-person-born-with-two-sets-of-dna-a-chim_10364937.bc>
Interesting, thanks.
--
If hard data were the filtering criterion you could fit the entire
contents of the Internet on a floppy disk. ---Cecil Adams
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:30:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 15:16:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?

I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 19:21:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 20:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?

Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.

Our EU passports now include biometric information that goes way beyond
such trivial identifiers as 'sex'. See:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport>
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 22:02:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents
of "Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply.
Of course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.

(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Post by Paul Wolff
Our EU passports now include biometric information that goes way beyond
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport>
I'm sure we'll catch up.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents
of "Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply.
Of course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.
But neither may give the correct answer to the question which button to
press on the full-body scanner unit to avoid the flagging of any
"crotch anomaly" or "chest anomaly". Apparently, some agents come up
with their own cutesy ways to ask for that specific information, but
for some people, neither setting works, anyway.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Indeed.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 21:10:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.

I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.

I applied for my first U.S. passport in 1978, and I imagine that I
submitted my naturalization certificate as well as my birth
certificate.
Katy Jennison
2019-12-02 23:16:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
--
Katy Jennison
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 23:21:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No, I just wanted a middle name.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 23:34:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No. My uncle had no middle initial. When he was in the military
(WWII) his dogtags gave his first name, NMI, and last name. "NMI"
means "no middle initial".

When I wrote (in another post) that I had to provide my mother's
middle initial to obtain my birth certificate, it was because my
mother *did* use a middle initial. Had she not, I could have written
"none".

The middle initial of a married woman can be a problem. My wife's
driver's license has "C" as her middle initial because her original
driver's license used the first letter of her maiden name as her
middle initial. In all other documents, it's "M" for "Marie".

That's been a problem with some overzealous bank tellers. Our bank
accounts use "M", but her ID has "C". We have our "jobsworth" types,
too.

Many computer forms I fill out online have "optional" next to the
middle initial/name box.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 23:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 18:34:55 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No. My uncle had no middle initial. When he was in the military
(WWII) his dogtags gave his first name, NMI, and last name. "NMI"
means "no middle initial".
Remember that guy I wrote about, the guy who washed my car at the
Walmart parking lot? He was a fugitive for sex crimes with young
girls?

Just found his name in my history, but when I was doing the original
search on him years ago, I came across his name as:

Ismael Nmi Palacios, Jr.

I said to Alma, "That's a funny Mexican middle name. How do you
pronounce it?"
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
In the more serious business of acquiring permanent residence or
citizenship, a trail of name changes, each with official documentation,
may be required.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
As mentioned, few people think they've ever had a "gender change" -
with the notable exception of genderfluid people, who may have them as
often as several times a day. So I think we need a different
expression.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-03 03:31:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
In the more serious business of acquiring permanent residence or
citizenship, a trail of name changes, each with official documentation,
may be required.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
As mentioned, few people think they've ever had a "gender change" -
with the notable exception of genderfluid people, who may have them as
often as several times a day. So I think we need a different
expression.
Changes of reported or official gender, maybe.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 00:38:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
The solution varies from one jurisdiction to another, I imagine, but a
common solution is to produce the birth certificate plus separate
evidence of change of name.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:59:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.

It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...

Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 15:10:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Well, it is in French.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
--
Ambassador Trentino: "I am willing to do anything to prevent this
war."
President Firefly: "It's too late. I've already paid a month's
rent on the battlefield." _Duck Soup_
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-02 15:44:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
Wikip says other variants exist, with doing push-ups,
or running stairs, so more like Turing's original.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Yes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandes_dessin%C3%A9es#Formats>
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
The French made an art form out of their BD.
(far superior to American junk like Marvel or DC)

They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 19:31:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
Wikip says other variants exist, with doing push-ups,
or running stairs, so more like Turing's original.
Undoubtedly safer, especially for the brain.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Yes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandes_dessin%C3%A9es#Formats>
I suspect it's used in English only by knowledgeable fans of the
French product.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
The French made an art form out of their BD.
(far superior to American junk like Marvel or DC)
I certainly found Bilal's art impressive. Of course there are American
comics that are not like Marvel or DC, and I'm not sure at all that
Marvel and DC are as limited as they were in my boyhood. Since my
entire experience of bandes dessinées consists of /Le Tour de Gaule
d'Astérix/, I'm not in a position to have an opinion.
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-02 20:41:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-02 22:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.

bill
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:57:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
"Invented ... as an art performance", so I suspect there was some
intentional absurdity.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
English Wikipedia calls it "a graphic novel."
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-02 19:43:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.

bill
Ken Blake
2019-12-02 20:05:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
I'm sure that I'm much better at chess that I could be at that. I don't
think I could kick anyone much higher than his ankle.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-02 20:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
--
Sam Plusnet
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-02 20:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 02/12/2019 20:17, Sam Plusnet wrote:

<snip>
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Not if you win (or miss).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-12-02 20:26:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 00:32:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 01:01:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-03 01:25:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:01:07 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
I was just arguing with some guy on Facebook about the Second
Amendment. I said the Constitution had not kept pace with social
norms and technology. No such thing as a machine gun or an AR-15 in
1790.

However, he threw one back at me: The "Puckle gun", patented in 1718
by a British inventor.

Not really a "machine gun", though, and only a couple were actually
made. It was never used in war or combat, either.
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:01:07 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent
wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
I was just arguing with some guy on Facebook about the Second
Amendment. I said the Constitution had not kept pace with social
norms and technology. No such thing as a machine gun or an AR-15 in
1790.
However, he threw one back at me: The "Puckle gun", patented in 1718
by a British inventor.
Not really a "machine gun", though, and only a couple were actually
made. It was never used in war or combat, either.
That's fairly obscure! I think the first use of a military submarine
was in the American Revolution, but it wasn't successful.
--
Don't take me seriously, but I have a hunch that when the unknown
parts of the DNA are decoded, the so-called sequences of junk DNA,
they're going to turn out to be copyright notices and patent
protections. ---Donald Knuth
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 03:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will
vote for that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in
the cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your
favor.
That's for a single round. I believe there's a version of the game where
you keep taking turns until one person is dead.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-03 03:34:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
I've seen a little MMA too, and I was thinking it was safer for the
brain because a lot of fights end with submission holds. But I could be
wrong.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-02 15:09:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Does a few of the same things. I was stuck with it once when the computer
was in the shop and I had a Linux box: OpenOffice couldn't even do small
capitals.
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 15:14:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I've played many games of blindfold chess and won almost all of them.
The record for simultaneous blindfold games used to be 45 (an enormous
number; it boggles my mind that anyone could do that), but I think it's
been broken recently. The most I ever played at once was three. That was
very hard, and the only reason I managed it was that I won all very
three quickly.
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
ObVocab: "Chessboxing" or "chess boxing" is a dvandva.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 16:01:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
The Register of Births tells what was reported to the Registrar at the
time. That's its whole purpose, I think. If you want an official
register of anything else, then create that parallel register, like a
Census record for example; otherwise, provide the original Register with
spaces for subsequent dated official endorsements reciting corrections
or other amendments. But don't erase the original record, please.
--
Paul
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:21:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
The Register of Births tells what was reported to the Registrar at the
time. That's its whole purpose, I think. If you want an official
register of anything else, then create that parallel register, like a
Census record for example; otherwise, provide the original Register with
spaces for subsequent dated official endorsements reciting corrections
or other amendments. But don't erase the original record, please.
I think that's how it works, but it does mean that the documents in
some cases state *not* the facts at the time of birth but what was
*believed* at that time.
--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:41:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
But it's also not fair to put the burden of that onto trans people.

The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
Number of people isn't a good argument, so I won't point out that this
numerical relation is unlikely to stay the same for long.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 20:49:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
But it's also not fair to put the burden of that onto trans people.
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?

The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-02 21:50:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 21:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 22:50:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
I had heard that access had become much more stringent - especially
after the publication of "The Day of the Jackal" by Frederick Forsythe
in which he described in detail on how to change your identity.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 22:40:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 22:50:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
When I applied for a passport the first time, the birth certificate I
had wasn't acceptable. A "certified" (I think that was the word)
birth certificate was required. I contacted the proper department of
public records (I forget the actual name) and had to jump through some
hoops.

My own personal information, of course, both parents names including
middle initials. That last point was a problem. My copy showed that
my mother's middle initial was "A" for Ann. The official records had
"B" for her maiden name. When the first application was denied, I
re-submitted using "B" because that was used in other documents. It
sailed through.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
This is what I can think of, hopefully correct:

When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.

I also needed to show it to register my child for school here in
Canada.

I need my own birth certificate to apply for passport and the domestic
ID card; to marry; to register a child; to apply for pensions and
certain other benefits; to inherit; and for various immigration
matters.

The fact that I've lived in two foreign countries certainly means that
I've needed it more often than the average person.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 23:46:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:49:58 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
I forgot about Social Security. I may have had to provide my birth
certificate to get a Social Security number, but that was sometime in
the 1950s. I can't remember doing it.

As to the rest of things you mention, with the exception of the
passport requirement, you could provide most of those places with an
official looking document you made on your own computer and list
yourself as a "unicorn" and it would pass.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-02 17:51:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at
at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
Let me try to explain this from a somewhat different angle. In the
case of a trans person, gender assigned at birth is private and
sensitive information. But the "sex" field of the birth certificate
isn't generally treated as private and sensitive information.
Why the distinction ...
Maybe what needs to change is the latter. My ultimate goal is to get
sex/gender off any general ID documents anyway. It can be kept on
medical records; we are used to treating those with a little more
secrecy.
... as both sex and gender could equally well be considered private and
sensitive, AFAICS. And no, it would not bother me to see your suggested
change implemented - but I suspect that removing sex/gender information
from passports (where the distinction is not made) will meet opposition
from some of the countries you might have an interest in visiting.

/Anders, Denmark.
Janet
2019-12-02 18:02:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted. She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process. The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know.
That is true for adopted persons (in England Wales and Scotland).
Their original birth certificate remains on the register, where they can
obtain it, as many do later when seeking their birth family.

Though for other purposes (like obtaining a passport, marrying)
adopted persons use the new ID ( new names and new parents),shown on
their Certificate of Adoption.

The only Brits who CAN get their birth certificate gender changed ,
are transgender people. Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender
Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change
their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth
certificate with their preferred gender on it.
(They are not required to have had surgery)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

Janet
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 23:07:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted. She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process. The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know.
That is true for adopted persons (in England Wales and Scotland).
Their original birth certificate remains on the register, where they can
obtain it, as many do later when seeking their birth family.
Though for other purposes (like obtaining a passport, marrying)
adopted persons use the new ID ( new names and new parents),shown on
their Certificate of Adoption.
The only Brits who CAN get their birth certificate gender changed ,
are transgender people. Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender
Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change
their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth
certificate with their preferred gender on it.
The piece of paper I call my birth certificate is actually headed:
CERTIFIED COPY of an ENTRY OF BIRTH Pursuant to the Births and Deaths
Registrations Acts, 1836 to 1947."

It goes on to say "I, nnnnn, Superintendent Registrar for ddddddd, do
hereby certify that this is a true copy of Entry No. xxx in the Register
Book No. yy, and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody."

Being a certified copy of the entry, it's hard to see how it can report
anything other than the words of the entry.

It does say as a footnote: CAUTION.--Any person who (1) falsifies any of
the particulars on this Certificate, or (2) uses it as true, knowing it
to be falsified, is liable to Prosecution.

Mine gives my sex as "Boy". What the notional birth certificate of a
re-sexed person says, I'd be very interested to read.
Post by Janet
(They are not required to have had surgery)
- which would have been post-partum, I presume, and therefore after the
event certified.
Post by Janet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004
So "Certified to be a true copy of /a/ record in the custody of the
Registrar General".
--
Paul
Quinn C
2019-12-03 01:16:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
CERTIFIED COPY of an ENTRY OF BIRTH Pursuant to the Births and Deaths
Registrations Acts, 1836 to 1947."
In Germany, there used to be three types of documents referring to the
birth register:

(1) Certified duplicate of the birth register
(2) Birth certificate
(3) Certificate of ancestry

(1) contains the complete record, possibly with amendments. It's
required upon marriage, but not any other time that I know of.

(2) is a shortened version of it, used for most official purposes. You
have some say about which information you want on there.

(3) used to be part of Germany's way of dealing with adoption. The
certificate of ancestry would state the biological parents only, while
the birth certificate would only mention the current legal parents
after adoption. (1) presumably contains both.

I received a (3) for my son as a matter as convention, and didn't know
about the difference then. It has, however, been abolished since.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-02 18:08:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:45:32 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
I also have a laptop at work; when at my desk, it is hooked up to
a decent keyboard, a mouse, an external monitor (no, I do not want two,
thank you) and a headset
I have to laugh at this and the other similar comments. Not that
there is any wrong about the comments, though.
The benefit of a laptop used to be the portability of the
device...just grab it and go.
And that advantage I do have.
Now, though, when a laptop is used it is often coupled with the same
external devices that make a desktop unit unportable. The built-in
laptop features (keyboard, mouse, monitor screen) are not used.
Not when in the docking station, no (though some of my similarly-equipped
colleagues make active use of the built-in monitor as a third screen)
It's
even possible to attach an external drive and not use the internal
drive of the laptop.
Yes, I know you can uncouple all of the externals and use the laptop
as a portable device.
So what are you laughing about?

I should perhaps add that the additional price (to my employer) of
having a laptop as compared to a desktop is inconsequential in
comparison with the salary I'm paid.
In return I'm completely mobile, should the need arise, without having
to do extensive preparations to ensure that things work like I'm used to.

/Anders, Denmark.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 20:54:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 19:08:12 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:45:32 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
I also have a laptop at work; when at my desk, it is hooked up to
a decent keyboard, a mouse, an external monitor (no, I do not want two,
thank you) and a headset
I have to laugh at this and the other similar comments. Not that
there is any wrong about the comments, though.
The benefit of a laptop used to be the portability of the
device...just grab it and go.
And that advantage I do have.
Now, though, when a laptop is used it is often coupled with the same
external devices that make a desktop unit unportable. The built-in
laptop features (keyboard, mouse, monitor screen) are not used.
Not when in the docking station, no (though some of my similarly-equipped
colleagues make active use of the built-in monitor as a third screen)
It's
even possible to attach an external drive and not use the internal
drive of the laptop.
Yes, I know you can uncouple all of the externals and use the laptop
as a portable device.
So what are you laughing about?
I'm laughing at the general use, not your specific use. There are
many laptops that are in use and *not* detached from the peripherals.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-12-02 18:09:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Not true, in my experience...when I decided to try it out (on an Apple
//c, which came with a built-in switch for changing the keyboard between
the two layouts) I quickly reached the same touchtyping speed I had
Was that a special option? I had a //e but no layout switch.
Bog standard for the //c....r
CDB
2019-12-02 20:03:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[chessboxing]
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch
invention. The real inventor though is Enki Bilal, a French
comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992) (who
seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
His cover features black and white checkered boxing gloves,
<Loading Image...>
So who invented the Loopkin? (It sounds a bit Dutch.)
https://preview.tinyurl.com/szb5shb
It says so on your site, Cyrille Varet.
<https://cyrillevaret.fr/loopkin-armchair-inspired-from-froid-equateur/>
But it is hardly an invention, merely a 3D realisation
from the drawing by Enki Bilal. BTW, it seems to be a one of a kind,
you can't buy one.
Only wait.
And why do you suspect a Dutch connection? The word 'Loopkin' is
already in the drawing by Enki Bilal, and there is nothing Dutch
about him,
The "loop", the "kin", and news about the invention of chessboxing.

EB could have been Dutch, or Flemish, for all I knew. Or they could
have borrowed it from a Dutchperchild, like the sport.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 00:51:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must
confess that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs
at at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said
certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.

That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 00:58:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 11:51:37 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must
confess that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs
at at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said
certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.
That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
Maybe the Nansen passports should be brought back. If you are
stateless, you don't have to conform to any country's rules.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:27:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.
That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
I'm not surprised, but it does mean that the birth certificate in some
cases has details that were false at the time but believed or claimed
to be true.
--
Not even computers will replace committees, because committees buy
computers. ---Shepherd Mead
Loading...