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Adam Funk
2019-12-02 13:33:17 UTC
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A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
What *is* strange here is that Texas finds that bathroom visits
should depend on how you looked when you were born, rather than at
the time of going to the bathroom.
If I ever visit Texas again, I'll be sorely tempted to piss in a women's
toilet, just to heap scorn on their laws. The "bathroom visits" aspect
is almost orthogonal to the question of birth certificates. Why can't
they just introduce unisex toilets?
I've been in public toilets in both Canada and France where Madame Pipi
had a clear view of me standing at a urinal. I very much doubt that she
got a thrill from looking at my back. If a woman can see a man's back at
a urinal, why can't men see the closed door in a women's facility?
--
I only regret that I have but one shirt to give for my country.
---Abbie Hoffman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 13:34:08 UTC
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Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:12:25 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at
at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
What *is* strange here is that Texas finds that bathroom visits
should depend on how you looked when you were born, rather than
at the time of going to the bathroom.
/Anders, Denmark.
The Texas bathroom bill was not an attempt to force people to use the
bathroom consistent with their birth sex. Not all bathroom users, at
any rate. It was a bill that attempted to require this in public
schools, public universities, and government buildings. It was not to
be enforced in any other bathroom locations.
I should interject here that it was a ridiculous proposal in the first
place, and the limited application does not make it less ridiculous.
I say that lest someone thinks I found the bill to be in any way
acceptable.
Politicians propose bills like this as a sop to their base. In any
politician's district there are some cause-specific whackos, and if
that district has enough of them, the politician has to throw them a
bone once in a while to keep the district's vote. In Texas, those
cause-specific whackos are in greater numbers than they might be
elsewhere.
A large number of bills of this type are proposed, passed, and then
challenged in the courts and ruled unlawful. The politicians don't
care that the bill will never result in extant law.
Or (in Ohio, for example) that they are mandating something
scientifically impossible.
They can still go
to their district and tell those whacko supporters "I tried. I'm on
your side. Vote for me."
--
The love of money as a possession ... will be recognised for what it
is, a somewhat disgusting morbidity, one of those semi-criminal,
semi-pathological propensities which one hands over with a shudder to
the specialists in mental disease. ---J M Keynes
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:24:20 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...

Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 15:15:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?

It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.


[1] As opposed to the microbiome, which obviously has lots of kinds of
DNA different from the human kind.
--
I don't quite understand this worship of objectivity in
journalism. Now, just flat-out lying is different from being
subjective. ---Hunter S Thompson
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:48:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?
The correct answer would be "intersex", I guess. But, as I have
explained elsewhere, this is decided by doctors and should be treated
as a medical observation, and maybe not make it into a civil record.
Post by Adam Funk
It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.
I've never heard of such a case, but apparently they exist.

| And yes, if the twins are boy/girl, the girl could end up with some
| male chromosomes and the boy with female chromosomes. Does this have
| visible effects? Sometimes.

<https://www.babycenter.com/0_strange-but-true-one-person-born-with-two-sets-of-dna-a-chim_10364937.bc>
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:25:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
...
Or in extremely rare cases, biological sex.
Well, that raises the question of what constitutes "biological sex at
the time of birth". I assume what's recorded on the birth certificate
is still done by inspecting genitalia. If the sex chromosomes don't
match that result, which one should be used?
The correct answer would be "intersex", I guess. But, as I have
explained elsewhere, this is decided by doctors and should be treated
as a medical observation, and maybe not make it into a civil record.
Sure, but as I said earlier, the medical observation of genetic
paternity [1] may differ from what is believed/claimed.


[1] And in some cases, maternity. I learned about chimerae from a
biology teacher who mentioned a case where a father had DNA testing
done because of doubts about his wife's fidelity. The test came back
with him as the father & a close female relative of his wife's as the
mother --- even though he had witnessed the birth & had no doubt about
the child's maternity. It turned out that his wife had subsumed a
twin, which provided the DNA for at least some of her ova.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
It's also possible for the human-DNA portion [1] of a human to have
constituents with different DNA from a subsumed twin. I suppose it's
possible for a chimera to include more than one combination of sex
chromosomes too.
I've never heard of such a case, but apparently they exist.
| And yes, if the twins are boy/girl, the girl could end up with some
| male chromosomes and the boy with female chromosomes. Does this have
| visible effects? Sometimes.
<https://www.babycenter.com/0_strange-but-true-one-person-born-with-two-sets-of-dna-a-chim_10364937.bc>
Interesting, thanks.
--
If hard data were the filtering criterion you could fit the entire
contents of the Internet on a floppy disk. ---Cecil Adams
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:30:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 15:16:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?

I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 19:21:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 20:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?

Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.

Our EU passports now include biometric information that goes way beyond
such trivial identifiers as 'sex'. See:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport>
--
Paul
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 22:02:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents
of "Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply.
Of course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.

(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Post by Paul Wolff
Our EU passports now include biometric information that goes way beyond
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport>
I'm sure we'll catch up.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents
of "Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply.
Of course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.
But neither may give the correct answer to the question which button to
press on the full-body scanner unit to avoid the flagging of any
"crotch anomaly" or "chest anomaly". Apparently, some agents come up
with their own cutesy ways to ask for that specific information, but
for some people, neither setting works, anyway.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Indeed.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2019-12-03 12:20:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate
is required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is
not the same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't
it cause a problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport
office handles that, but I assume only the current name appears
on the passport. It seems to me that gender changes should be
handled the same way. I have no idea how they're actually
handled.
There are parts of the world where it would be unwise to share these
anomalies. Better to suppress your desire for personal recognition and
tell them the same thing your bits do.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Paul Wolff
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the
bearer is a particular citizen of another country and should be
treated as such, etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field
beyond cutting down the potential candidates for personation from
8 billion to 4 billion - hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical
inertial reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if
it's understood worldwide at all - after all, we're told that
'gender' is a subjective quality, not an objective one, and
therefore indeterminate - and I doubt it's recognised in, say,
Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents of
"Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply. Of
course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.
But neither may give the correct answer to the question which button
to press on the full-body scanner unit to avoid the flagging of any
"crotch anomaly" or "chest anomaly". Apparently, some agents come up
with their own cutesy ways to ask for that specific information, but
for some people, neither setting works, anyway.
Crotch Anomaly will be dropping their first album pretty soon.
Post by Quinn C
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite
to me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Indeed.
ITYM "Indeed, Pilgrim".
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 17:52:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
But neither may give the correct answer to the question which button
to press on the full-body scanner unit to avoid the flagging of any
"crotch anomaly" or "chest anomaly". Apparently, some agents come up
with their own cutesy ways to ask for that specific information, but
for some people, neither setting works, anyway.
Crotch Anomaly will be dropping their first album pretty soon.
It reminded me of the supermarket error message.

"Unexpected item in the bagging area."
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-03 19:40:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
But neither may give the correct answer to the question which button
to press on the full-body scanner unit to avoid the flagging of any
"crotch anomaly" or "chest anomaly". Apparently, some agents come up
with their own cutesy ways to ask for that specific information, but
for some people, neither setting works, anyway.
Crotch Anomaly will be dropping their first album pretty soon.
It reminded me of the supermarket error message.
"Unexpected item in the bagging area."
Oooh! Matron!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 15:51:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Paul Wolff
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019, at 11:21:44, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I presume that the purpose of a passport is to assert that the bearer is
a particular citizen of another country and should be treated as such,
etc. I can't see any point to the 'sex' field beyond cutting down the
potential candidates for personation from 8 billion to 4 billion -
hardly useful, is it?
Besides, there must be international agreement on the data to be
included, and my guess is that 'sex' remains for historical inertial
reasons, while 'gender' would be completely useless, if it's understood
worldwide at all - after all, we're told that 'gender' is a subjective
quality, not an objective one, and therefore indeterminate - and I doubt
it's recognised in, say, Saudi Arabia, to take a country at 'random'.
It does tell customs officials whether to say their equivalents
of "Mr." or "Ms." and "ma'am" or "sir", in cases where those apply.
Of course clothes, haircuts, etc., can convey that message.
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Post by Paul Wolff
Our EU passports now include biometric information that goes way beyond
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometric_passport>
I'm sure we'll catch up.
TSA is requiring all states to do something electronic to drivers licenses.
I'll find out this July what it is, and how much extra the renewal will
cost. NJ was embarrassed that many of the 9/11 hijackers had NJ drivers
licenses so they've already made it much more onerous to get one (a point
system on ID types), and even a US passport by itself isn't sufficient.
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-03 23:34:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way. On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Have any serious suggestions come even close to common use?
I, for one, wouldn't know how to pronounce "Mx", and I've seen
it only rarely.

/Anders, Denmark.
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-04 15:03:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I don't even remember whether customs officials have been polite to
me that way.  On another topic, the question of the non-binary
alternative to "sir" and "ma'am" seems to be unsolved.)
Have any serious suggestions come even close to common use?
In looking around, I saw no evidence that any suggestion of any kind has
ever been used.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I, for one, wouldn't know how to pronounce "Mx", and I've seen
it only rarely.
No problem. "Mix", or rhyming with "books", or rhyming with "bucks", or
simply and obviously, "Meh-zzz". Whatever that means.

https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/1099/what-are-appropriate-gender-agnostic-alternatives-to-sir-maam

I assume that if "Mx" catches on as a vocative, it won't be capitalized,
like "miss" versus "Miss".

Another suggestion at the above site was to stop saying "sir" and
"ma'am", which at least in present-day America is more possible for some
people than others.
--
Jerry Friedman
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 21:10:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 07:30:03 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
 I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
 If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted.  She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process.  The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know. No way should it be
tampered with. It would be like air-brushing comrades out of the Kremlin
line-up for the May-Day parade through Red Square.
Well, the possibility that there is now no record of the original
spelling of my sister's name bothers me less than air-brushing
uncomrades out of photos. But if the birth certificate is used for
other purposes such as certifying someone's name, I think it's quite
reasonable to replace it for those purposes with something that can be
changed.
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.

I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.

I applied for my first U.S. passport in 1978, and I imagine that I
submitted my naturalization certificate as well as my birth
certificate.
Katy Jennison
2019-12-02 23:16:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
--
Katy Jennison
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 23:21:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No, I just wanted a middle name.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 23:34:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No. My uncle had no middle initial. When he was in the military
(WWII) his dogtags gave his first name, NMI, and last name. "NMI"
means "no middle initial".

When I wrote (in another post) that I had to provide my mother's
middle initial to obtain my birth certificate, it was because my
mother *did* use a middle initial. Had she not, I could have written
"none".

The middle initial of a married woman can be a problem. My wife's
driver's license has "C" as her middle initial because her original
driver's license used the first letter of her maiden name as her
middle initial. In all other documents, it's "M" for "Marie".

That's been a problem with some overzealous bank tellers. Our bank
accounts use "M", but her ID has "C". We have our "jobsworth" types,
too.

Many computer forms I fill out online have "optional" next to the
middle initial/name box.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 23:50:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 18:34:55 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 23:16:46 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 11:21:44 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
I don't remember a problem.
I was baptized without a middle name, so when I became a naturalized
U.S. citizen in 1963, I took my father's name as my middle name.
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No. My uncle had no middle initial. When he was in the military
(WWII) his dogtags gave his first name, NMI, and last name. "NMI"
means "no middle initial".
Remember that guy I wrote about, the guy who washed my car at the
Walmart parking lot? He was a fugitive for sex crimes with young
girls?

Just found his name in my history, but when I was doing the original
search on him years ago, I came across his name as:

Ismael Nmi Palacios, Jr.

I said to Alma, "That's a funny Mexican middle name. How do you
pronounce it?"
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-03 23:47:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Many computer forms I fill out online have "optional" next to the
middle initial/name box.
I should hope so - at least if there is any chance that they may
be used by non-American citizens.

I have told this before, I believe, but Danish royalty has no surname.
Our Crown Prince, when he was studying at Harvard, took the practical
approach of assuming "Henriksen" (what might have been a patronym)
as surname, but Princess Elisabeth made no such concession when
visiting America, giving no end of problems for the poor immigration
officers who needed to tick all their boxes. On several occasions
she visited as part of a diplomatic delegation, so they couldn't
just not let her in, and she absolutely refused any surname being
entered into the forms.

Some people give worse problems, but all are due to lazy (bureaucrats
or) programmers:
<URL:https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/>

/Anders, Denmark.
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-04 00:18:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 03/12/2019 23:47, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:

<snip>
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I have told this before, I believe, but Danish royalty has no surname.
And British peers have been known not to have (or, rather, not to use)
names at all, at least when signing letters. Instead, they use their
title. I don't know whether this is still the practice, but it certainly
used to be.

One might, for example, imagine Henry Fitzalan-Howard (15th Duke of
Norfolk) writing shortly before his death in 1917:

-------
To whom it may concern

Please let Bernard off P.E. today, as Nanny informs me that he has
acquired a chest.

Norfolk
-------

Quite why this custom arose is not something that I have been able to
ascertain. Wikipedia seems strangely, and perhaps even conspiratorially,
reticent on the matter, and unfortunately I lack the imagination to come
up with search keys that are sufficient to satisfy even the most
forgiving of search engines.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 16:21:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Is a middle initial mandatory in the US, then?
No.

During WWII, at least, they could put "NMI" in the appropriate slot
on the enlistment form.
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
In the more serious business of acquiring permanent residence or
citizenship, a trail of name changes, each with official documentation,
may be required.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
As mentioned, few people think they've ever had a "gender change" -
with the notable exception of genderfluid people, who may have them as
often as several times a day. So I think we need a different
expression.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-03 03:31:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport office
handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on the passport.
In the more serious business of acquiring permanent residence or
citizenship, a trail of name changes, each with official documentation,
may be required.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way. I
have no idea how they're actually handled.
As mentioned, few people think they've ever had a "gender change" -
with the notable exception of genderfluid people, who may have them as
often as several times a day. So I think we need a different
expression.
Changes of reported or official gender, maybe.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-12-03 12:22:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not
the same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause
a problem?
I wonder what Caitlyn Jenner's passport reads.
Many people change their names. I don't know how the passport
office handles that, but I assume only the current name appears on
the passport.
In the more serious business of acquiring permanent residence or
citizenship, a trail of name changes, each with official
documentation, may be required.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It seems to me that gender changes should be handled the same way.
I have no idea how they're actually handled.
As mentioned, few people think they've ever had a "gender change" -
with the notable exception of genderfluid people, who may have them
as often as several times a day. So I think we need a different
expression.
Maybe "oil change"?

Dear Mx Manners: I am a genderfluid persx who changes their oil several
times a day. Recently I have been suffering from terrible, day-long
bouts of diarrhea. Which door shall I choose?

The anomaly uneducated people, here and elsewhere, can't resolve comes
from the collision of unquestioning acceptance of personal,
impressionistic, and (apparently sometimes) ephemeral declarations of
gender, and habits (and porcelain fixtures) slow to change.
--
Is the water too cold for your feet, Pilgrim? Stand back and let me warm
it for you.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 00:38:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
If a person applies for a US passport, a birth certificate is
required. If the name and sex on the birth certificate is not the
same as the name and sex of the applicant, wouldn't it cause a
problem?
The solution varies from one jurisdiction to another, I imagine, but a
common solution is to produce the birth certificate plus separate
evidence of change of name.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 14:59:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.

It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...

Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-12-02 15:10:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Well, it is in French.
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
--
Ambassador Trentino: "I am willing to do anything to prevent this
war."
President Firefly: "It's too late. I've already paid a month's
rent on the battlefield." _Duck Soup_
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-02 15:44:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
Wikip says other variants exist, with doing push-ups,
or running stairs, so more like Turing's original.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Yes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandes_dessin%C3%A9es#Formats>
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
The French made an art form out of their BD.
(far superior to American junk like Marvel or DC)

They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,

Jan
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 19:31:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
Wikip says other variants exist, with doing push-ups,
or running stairs, so more like Turing's original.
Undoubtedly safer, especially for the brain.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Yes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandes_dessin%C3%A9es#Formats>
I suspect it's used in English only by knowledgeable fans of the
French product.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
The French made an art form out of their BD.
(far superior to American junk like Marvel or DC)
I certainly found Bilal's art impressive. Of course there are American
comics that are not like Marvel or DC, and I'm not sure at all that
Marvel and DC are as limited as they were in my boyhood. Since my
entire experience of bandes dessinées consists of /Le Tour de Gaule
d'Astérix/, I'm not in a position to have an opinion.
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-02 20:41:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-02 22:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 16:19:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds today
is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers attempted to
portray (do today's children have no imagination at all?), with little
success, into an actual competition -- though in the absence of flying
broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 16:49:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:19:17 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds today
is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers attempted to
portray (do today's children have no imagination at all?), with little
success, into an actual competition -- though in the absence of flying
broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
It is an actual competition for some. The University of Central
Florida Quidditch team has matches with other university teams and
states at their website:

"Quidditch is a co-ed internationally recognized competitive sport and
the Nearly Headless Knights started at UCF in 2012. They travel around
the state and country to play against other Universities. The Knights
even flew to Austin, Texas and took part in the U.S Quidditch Cup 11
aka Nationals where they won the school’s first ever National level
game."

http://www.ucfquidditch.com/about-us/

I'm not sure if Quinn would consider it a "macho ritual" sport
considering that a) the team is co-ed, and, b) it would be very
difficult to act macho when riding a broom constructed of PVC pipe
(see FAQ).

The "nerd" description is cruel, but it is noted that UCF has but one
Quidditch team and Cornell University has between 5 and 10 registered
teams but none are ranked in the top 100 in the Official USQ
Standings.

https://cornellsun.com/2010/08/31/muggle-quidditch-makes-its-way-to-cornell-campus/

https://www.usquidditch.org/standings/

With 122 teams listed in the Official USQ Standings, the claim of
"little success" seems mean.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 20:46:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 08:19:17 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds today
is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers attempted to
portray (do today's children have no imagination at all?), with little
success, into an actual competition -- though in the absence of flying
broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
It is an actual competition for some. The University of Central
Florida Quidditch team has matches with other university teams and
Of course it's an "actual competition." It is not, however, a successful
attempt to turn a fantasy sport, played in three dimensions, into a sport
remotely resembling what is described by the author. (I don't suppose
you've read the source novels.)

See what I mean about failing to understand what is written?
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 17:44:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds today
is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers attempted to
portray (do today's children have no imagination at all?), with little
success, into an actual competition -- though in the absence of flying
broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
A fantasy sport? Inventing a game? G'Lord whatever next?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwile_flonking
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-03 19:39:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else,
in Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds
today is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers
attempted to portray (do today's children have no imagination at
all?), with little success, into an actual competition -- though in
the absence of flying broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
A fantasy sport? Inventing a game? G'Lord whatever next?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwile_flonking
I'll admit to having participated in a welly-wanging contest in the past.
But not recently, I'm over it now.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 21:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else,
in Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds
today is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers
attempted to portray (do today's children have no imagination at
all?), with little success, into an actual competition -- though in
the absence of flying broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
A fantasy sport? Inventing a game? G'Lord whatever next?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwile_flonking
I'll admit to having participated in a welly-wanging contest in the past.
But not recently, I'm over it now.
Did you go cold turkey? Or did you taper off with a little sabotage?
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-04 10:07:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone
else, in Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
A la quidditch?
Quidditch is a little closer to chess-boxing than 43-man squamish.
But neither is what I'd call very close.
I don't know what the latter is, but quidditch as played by nerds
today is an attempt to turn a fantasy sport, which filmmakers
attempted to portray (do today's children have no imagination at
all?), with little success, into an actual competition -- though in
the absence of flying broomsticks I don't see how that's possible.
A fantasy sport? Inventing a game? G'Lord whatever next?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwile_flonking
I'll admit to having participated in a welly-wanging contest in the
past. But not recently, I'm over it now.
Did you go cold turkey? Or did you taper off with a little sabotage?
It got ever so competitive with streamlined liners and hidden weights in
the soles. (No not really, I was never into it that much).

But red wellies go furthest.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-03 10:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[-]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
I think it is the nationality of the inventor that counts,
no matter where he does his thing, and even if he is unknown
in his country of origin.
Rupingh invented it as performance art. Presumably someone else, in
Berlin, invented it as an actual competition.
No. Rupingh was the first performer, and the first world champion.
Nowadays he runs the organisation.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
Wikip says other variants exist, with doing push-ups,
or running stairs, so more like Turing's original.
Undoubtedly safer, especially for the brain.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
Yes. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandes_dessin%C3%A9es#Formats>
I suspect it's used in English only by knowledgeable fans of the
French product.
Wikipedia (EN) uses 'comic album', but that page may well have been
written by a Dutch or French author.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
(who seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
...
Completely unknown to this American, but so are many well-known
comic-book artists and writers.
The French made an art form out of their BD.
(far superior to American junk like Marvel or DC)
I certainly found Bilal's art impressive. Of course there are American
comics that are not like Marvel or DC, and I'm not sure at all that
Marvel and DC are as limited as they were in my boyhood.
American artists were greatly influenced by the French new wave.
Much of the new work was published in the magazine 'Metal Hurlant'.
(lit. Screaming Metal) It appeared in translation
as 'Heavy Metal'.
The French magazine lasted only a few years,
the American one still exists, afaik.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Since my entire experience of bandes dessinées consists of /Le Tour de
Gaule d'Astérix/, I'm not in a position to have an opinion.
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
Some of it would no doubt have been classified as porn,
by the American standards of the time,

Jan
s***@gmail.com
2019-12-04 02:11:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Since my entire experience of bandes dessinées consists of /Le Tour de
Gaule d'Astérix/, I'm not in a position to have an opinion.
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Especially this American's,
but I haven't actually tried for many years,
and I'm uncertain where the edition brought from France
has its current established presence.

(I did not get as far in my francophone studies as my brother,
so did not an overseas year via my college,
but i benefited from his.)

/dps
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-06 10:13:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Jerry Friedman
Since my entire experience of bandes dessinées consists of /Le Tour de
Gaule d'Astérix/, I'm not in a position to have an opinion.
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Especially this American's,
but I haven't actually tried for many years,
and I'm uncertain where the edition brought from France
has its current established presence.
(I did not get as far in my francophone studies as my brother,
so did not an overseas year via my college,
but i benefited from his.)
One of the nice things about reading Asterix in French
is that you know that there are things that you won't understand.
I guess some of those things are also missed
by at least some of the native speakers.

Every now and then you will have the pleasure
that something entirely unrelated will suddenly make you see
something that you missed.

Of course you can look up many of those things on the web,
but you shouldn't do that.
More fun to find out things for yourself,
even if it takes a long time,

Jan

PS Example, for a long time I did not see why one of the Roman forts
surrounding the 'village we know so well' is called 'Babaorum'.

Madhu
2019-12-04 15:55:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
Some of it would no doubt have been classified as porn,
by the American standards of the time,
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book stores
was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their shelves and
no other TinTin books.

Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only TinTin
in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.

But my question is about Asterix - I saw a feature in the newspaper
about the latest Asterix - Asterix and the chieftan's daughter - and how
this was all about portrayal of females in the Asterix comics as heros
and not just sex objects and all that gender related stuff.

I could have sworn I'd seen that cover (Asterix and the chieftan's
daughter) 20 years ago in a bookstore in America.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-04 18:51:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by J. J. Lodder
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
Some of it would no doubt have been classified as porn,
by the American standards of the time,
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book stores
was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their shelves and
no other TinTin books.
Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only TinTin
in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.
I can imagine that being the case in one bookstore, but
it seems highly unlikely to be so in all a country's bookstores.

Last time I looked, the Canadian bookstore where I bought a few Tintins
had all the usual titles -- there are 24 of them -- except for
the first two: Tintin in the Congo, which has nasty racist caricatures,
and Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, the first book chronologically,
which seems to be stocked only by shops where someone is paying attention.
Post by Madhu
But my question is about Asterix - I saw a feature in the newspaper
about the latest Asterix - Asterix and the chieftan's daughter - and how
this was all about portrayal of females in the Asterix comics as heros
and not just sex objects and all that gender related stuff.
I could have sworn I'd seen that cover (Asterix and the chieftan's
daughter) 20 years ago in a bookstore in America.
That would be Asterix and the ChiefTAIN's daughter, and it is unlikely
you saw it 20 years ago, since it was first published on Oct. 24, 2019.
I own only a handful of Asterixes and haven't read that one.

bill
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-04 22:02:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Madhu
Post by J. J. Lodder
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
Some of it would no doubt have been classified as porn,
by the American standards of the time,
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book stores
was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their shelves and
no other TinTin books.
Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only TinTin
in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.
I can imagine that being the case in one bookstore, but
it seems highly unlikely to be so in all a country's bookstores.
Last time I looked, the Canadian bookstore where I bought a few Tintins
had all the usual titles -- there are 24 of them -- except for
the first two: Tintin in the Congo, which has nasty racist caricatures,
and Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, the first book chronologically,
which seems to be stocked only by shops where someone is paying attention.
And following Madhu's cue: Tintin in the Congo
is the most popular Tintin album in the DR Congo.

Hergé disliked the Soviets album, and blocked publication.
For a long time it was available only in pirated editions.
Hergé understood after the first publication
that he had been duped by silly anti-communist propaganda.

BTW, it is the esential Tintin.
Almost all story elements and jokes in it
reappear in later albums,

Jan
Madhu
2019-12-05 04:29:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book
stores was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their
shelves and no other TinTin books.
Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only
TinTin in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.
I can imagine that being the case in one bookstore, but it seems
highly unlikely to be so in all a country's bookstores.
All the stores I visited over the period of a few months!
Nepal didn't have too many bookstores and most of them tend to be
buddhist oriented - catering to the visiting tourists.
These were regular bookstores but there is a feature of Indian markets -
(especially the so called Tibetean bazars which are set up in various
cities by Tibetean refugees in tourist areas) - there may be a couple of
small hundred small shops lining the street but all of them stock the
same merchandise. shoppers move from shop to shop haggling to get a
better bargain but the products are the same in all the shops. I
this imagine tells you something of the supply chain.
Last time I looked, the Canadian bookstore where I bought a few
Tintins had all the usual titles -- there are 24 of them -- except for
the first two: Tintin in the Congo, which has nasty racist
caricatures, and Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, the first book
chronologically, which seems to be stocked only by shops where someone
is paying attention.
[I haven't seen the congo one in India. The soviets copy was very rare.]
Post by Madhu
I could have sworn I'd seen that cover (Asterix and the chieftan's
daughter) 20 years ago in a bookstore in America.
That would be Asterix and the ChiefTAIN's daughter, and it is unlikely
you saw it 20 years ago, since it was first published on Oct. 24, 2019.
I own only a handful of Asterixes and haven't read that one.
Ah my misspelling was systematic.

The back cover of these comics usually had pictures of the covers of
other issues. I wonder if I saw the picture of "Asterix and the
cheiftain's daughter" on one of those printed in advance of the actual
publication. I knew I hadn't actually read it but perhaps it was already
conceived of that long ago and was in the works
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-05 04:48:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Madhu
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book
stores was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their
shelves and no other TinTin books.
Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only
TinTin in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.
I can imagine that being the case in one bookstore, but it seems
highly unlikely to be so in all a country's bookstores.
All the stores I visited over the period of a few months!
Nepal didn't have too many bookstores and most of them tend to be
buddhist oriented - catering to the visiting tourists.
These were regular bookstores but there is a feature of Indian markets -
(especially the so called Tibetean bazars which are set up in various
cities by Tibetean refugees in tourist areas) - there may be a couple of
small hundred small shops lining the street but all of them stock the
same merchandise. shoppers move from shop to shop haggling to get a
better bargain but the products are the same in all the shops. I
this imagine tells you something of the supply chain.
Last time I looked, the Canadian bookstore where I bought a few
Tintins had all the usual titles -- there are 24 of them -- except for
the first two: Tintin in the Congo, which has nasty racist
caricatures, and Tintin in the Land of the Soviets, the first book
chronologically, which seems to be stocked only by shops where someone
is paying attention.
[I haven't seen the congo one in India. The soviets copy was very rare.]
Post by Madhu
I could have sworn I'd seen that cover (Asterix and the chieftan's
daughter) 20 years ago in a bookstore in America.
That would be Asterix and the ChiefTAIN's daughter, and it is unlikely
you saw it 20 years ago, since it was first published on Oct. 24, 2019.
I own only a handful of Asterixes and haven't read that one.
Ah my misspelling was systematic.
The back cover of these comics usually had pictures of the covers of
other issues. I wonder if I saw the picture of "Asterix and the
cheiftain's daughter"
Always remember the rule: 'i' before 'e', except when it isn't.

And in the case of "chieftain", it is.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-05 09:38:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Richard Heathfield <***@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
[-]
Post by Richard Heathfield
Post by Madhu
Ah my misspelling was systematic.
The back cover of these comics usually had pictures of the covers of
other issues. I wonder if I saw the picture of "Asterix and the
cheiftain's daughter"
Always remember the rule: 'i' before 'e', except when it isn't.
And in the case of "chieftain", it is.
It helps to learn Dutch, in which both 'ie' and 'ei' occur,
with different meanings and pronunciations.

I realise it is a sacrifice, but it gives you a new awareness,
and you will never misspell Niels Bohr and Leif Erikson again.

See, it also helps for other languages,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-05 09:38:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
The back cover of these comics usually had pictures of the covers of
other issues.
You are confusing Tintin and Asterix.
Tintin has previous covers on the back, Asterix has a list of titles.
Post by Madhu
I wonder if I saw the picture of "Asterix and the
cheiftain's daughter" on one of those printed in advance of the actual
publication. I knew I hadn't actually read it but perhaps it was already
conceived of that long ago and was in the works
Certainly not.
That long ago Asterix was written and drawn by Uderzo alone.
With often mediocre results, Uderzo could draw,
but he wasn't a 'scenariste'.

The present authors were asked in 2011 to continue the series
and to bring in new ideas.
Their first production was 'Chez les Picts' (2013)

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-04 22:02:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by J. J. Lodder
Perhaps the best Asterix is 'Chez les Bretons',
if you can read it in French.
(English translations of Asterix are generally poor,
the American ones are worse)
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
They did not have to put up with the self-censorship
enforced by your Comics Code Authority,
I'm sure that helped.
Some of it would no doubt have been classified as porn,
by the American standards of the time,
Some 20 years back the only TinTin books I saw in American book stores
was TinTin in America. They had stacks of that book in their shelves and
no other TinTin books.
TinTin in America is set in the early thirties, in gangland Chicago.
He even meets Al Capone, iirc.
To Americans it must be pure nostalgia.
Post by Madhu
Everytime I found a in Nepal with TinTin books it was always only TinTin
in Tibet. stacks of those and and no other Tintin books.
But my question is about Asterix - I saw a feature in the newspaper
about the latest Asterix - Asterix and the chieftan's daughter - and how
this was all about portrayal of females in the Asterix comics as heros
and not just sex objects and all that gender related stuff.
Bonnemine is hardly an object. She henpecks her husband,
Post by Madhu
I could have sworn I'd seen that cover (Asterix and the chieftan's
daughter) 20 years ago in a bookstore in America.
The first edition appeared about a month ago,

Jan
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:57:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
"Invented ... as an art performance", so I suspect there was some
intentional absurdity.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
English Wikipedia calls it "a graphic novel."
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-03 10:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
"Invented ... as an art performance", so I suspect there was some
intentional absurdity.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The real inventor though is Enki Bilal,
a French comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992)
I don't know much about comics, but is "album" the right word?
English Wikipedia calls it "a graphic novel."
Wikipedia also mentions a great deal of criticism of the term,
some by distinguished authors, (just commercial nonsense)

Jan
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-02 19:43:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.

bill
Ken Blake
2019-12-02 20:05:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
I'm sure that I'm much better at chess that I could be at that. I don't
think I could kick anyone much higher than his ankle.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-02 20:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
--
Sam Plusnet
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-02 20:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 02/12/2019 20:17, Sam Plusnet wrote:

<snip>
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Not if you win (or miss).
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Ken Blake
2019-12-02 20:26:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 00:32:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 01:01:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-03 01:25:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:01:07 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
I was just arguing with some guy on Facebook about the Second
Amendment. I said the Constitution had not kept pace with social
norms and technology. No such thing as a machine gun or an AR-15 in
1790.

However, he threw one back at me: The "Puckle gun", patented in 1718
by a British inventor.

Not really a "machine gun", though, and only a couple were actually
made. It was never used in war or combat, either.
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:01:07 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent
wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
I was just arguing with some guy on Facebook about the Second
Amendment. I said the Constitution had not kept pace with social
norms and technology. No such thing as a machine gun or an AR-15 in
1790.
However, he threw one back at me: The "Puckle gun", patented in 1718
by a British inventor.
Not really a "machine gun", though, and only a couple were actually
made. It was never used in war or combat, either.
That's fairly obscure! I think the first use of a military submarine
was in the American Revolution, but it wasn't successful.
--
Don't take me seriously, but I have a hunch that when the unknown
parts of the DNA are decoded, the so-called sequences of junk DNA,
they're going to turn out to be copyright notices and patent
protections. ---Donald Knuth
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 03:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will
vote for that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in
the cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your
favor.
That's for a single round. I believe there's a version of the game where
you keep taking turns until one person is dead.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 17:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will
vote for that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in
the cylinder?  With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your
favor.
That's for a single round. I believe there's a version of the game where
you keep taking turns until one person is dead.
Quite. People don't like games which end up as a scoreless draw.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-03 10:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent
wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
Better, actually. The loaded chamber tends to end up on the bottom,

Jan
Ken Blake
2019-12-03 18:14:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
Yes. Actually a little better than 5 to 1. Well, *very* little better
than 5 to 1. If you should your in the head, you will probably die, but
theres a small chance that you won't.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2019-12-03 18:26:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent
wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder? With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
Yes. Actually a little better than 5 to 1. Well, *very* little better
than 5 to 1. If you should your in the head, you will probably die, but
theres a small chance that you won't.
A *weird* typo, for me. "should your" should have been "shoot yourself."
--
Ken
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-03 18:31:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also
playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent
wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my
opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of.  The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
Only some of the time.
A 50% mortality rate (assuming a modest degree of accuracy with a
firearm) sounds pretty dangerous to me.
Wouldn't the mortality rate be based on the number of chambers in the
cylinder?  With a six-shooter, the odds are 5 to 1 in your favor.
Yes. Actually a little better than 5 to 1. Well, *very* little better
than 5 to 1. If you should your in the head, you will probably die, but
theres a small chance that you won't.
A *weird* typo, for me. "should your" should have been "shoot yourself."
Yes, it did seem odd... but you can rest assured that we wroked it uot.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-03 10:32:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:
[-]
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
It was conceived as a form of duelling,
to even the chances between civilians
and professional military men.

So not as sport,

Jan
Ken Blake
2019-12-03 18:18:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
It was conceived as a form of duelling,
to even the chances between civilians
and professional military men.
So not as sport,
And here I thought duelling was having two operating systems installed.
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-03 22:05:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by J. J. Lodder
[-]
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will vote for
that as being most injurious to the brain.
It was conceived as a form of duelling,
to even the chances between civilians
and professional military men.
So not as sport,
And here I thought duelling was having two operating systems installed.
Widening a road so that the northbound & southbound traffic are
separated[1].

[1] Other directions are available.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2019-12-04 00:34:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
If Russian Roulette can be considered a "combat sport", I will
vote for that as being most injurious to the brain.
It was conceived as a form of duelling, to even the chances
between civilians and professional military men.
So not as sport,
And here I thought duelling was having two operating systems
installed.
Widening a road so that the northbound & southbound traffic are
separated[1].
[1] Other directions are available.
A duel carriageway is where two carriages drive towards each other at
speed, and each driver attempts to knock the other off his seat.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-03 03:34:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch invention.
Well, sort of. The first actual competition was in Berlin, it says.
It may be unfortunate that the sport combined with chess is boxing,
which of all the combat sports does the most damage to the brain--or
that's my impression.
I think the modern "sport" known as mixed martial arts probably
does more damage than boxing. It's repertoire includes kicks
to the head, and while I don't follow it, I've paused to watch
televised fights a few times, and I saw a high proportion of
head kicks that knocked the recipient out cold, instantly.
I've seen a little MMA too, and I was thinking it was safer for the
brain because a lot of fights end with submission holds. But I could be
wrong.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-02 15:09:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Does a few of the same things. I was stuck with it once when the computer
was in the shop and I had a Linux box: OpenOffice couldn't even do small
capitals.
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-02 15:14:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I've played many games of blindfold chess and won almost all of them.
The record for simultaneous blindfold games used to be 45 (an enormous
number; it boggles my mind that anyone could do that), but I think it's
been broken recently. The most I ever played at once was three. That was
very hard, and the only reason I managed it was that I won all very
three quickly.
The hardest one though was one blindfold game while also playing table
tennis. I won both games--the chess game because my opponent wasn't very
good, and the table tennis game because, although my opponent was much
better than me, he tried to follow the chess game and paid more
attention to it than the table tennis game.
Alan Turing's 'round the house chess' never caught on.
You move, get up, run round the house,
and when you sit down again your opponent must move.
Few could match his combination of thinking
and physical fitness, it seems,
Chessboxing is more popular these days.
ObVocab: "Chessboxing" or "chess boxing" is a dvandva.
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 16:01:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
The Register of Births tells what was reported to the Registrar at the
time. That's its whole purpose, I think. If you want an official
register of anything else, then create that parallel register, like a
Census record for example; otherwise, provide the original Register with
spaces for subsequent dated official endorsements reciting corrections
or other amendments. But don't erase the original record, please.
--
Paul
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:21:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Adam Funk
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns out
to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
The Register of Births tells what was reported to the Registrar at the
time. That's its whole purpose, I think. If you want an official
register of anything else, then create that parallel register, like a
Census record for example; otherwise, provide the original Register with
spaces for subsequent dated official endorsements reciting corrections
or other amendments. But don't erase the original record, please.
I think that's how it works, but it does mean that the documents in
some cases state *not* the facts at the time of birth but what was
*believed* at that time.
--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston
Quinn C
2019-12-02 17:41:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
But it's also not fair to put the burden of that onto trans people.

The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
Number of people isn't a good argument, so I won't point out that this
numerical relation is unlikely to stay the same for long.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 20:49:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
But it's also not fair to put the burden of that onto trans people.
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?

The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-02 21:50:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2019-12-02 21:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 22:50:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
I had heard that access had become much more stringent - especially
after the publication of "The Day of the Jackal" by Frederick Forsythe
in which he described in detail on how to change your identity.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 22:40:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 22:50:44 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
I think in the UK and Ireland anyone can get anyone's birth certificate
without providing any evidence of a right to have it. However, that
doesn't seem apply everywhere. I recently applied for a copy of my
father's birth certificate from the Government of Nova Scotia. At the
end of the form I had to indicate my relationship to the person whose
certificate I was ordering, choosing from a pull-down list. I was
surprised to see that "son" wasn't among the options offered, and as I
didn't think that they'd believe I was born in 1870 I thought it best
not to choose "father". However, when I explained in a separate email
why I needed it they replied very quickly and said it was OK. No such
complications arose with my mother's birth certificate, from Ireland.
When I applied for a passport the first time, the birth certificate I
had wasn't acceptable. A "certified" (I think that was the word)
birth certificate was required. I contacted the proper department of
public records (I forget the actual name) and had to jump through some
hoops.

My own personal information, of course, both parents names including
middle initials. That last point was a problem. My copy showed that
my mother's middle initial was "A" for Ann. The official records had
"B" for her maiden name. When the first application was denied, I
re-submitted using "B" because that was used in other documents. It
sailed through.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-12-02 22:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
This is what I can think of, hopefully correct:

When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.

I also needed to show it to register my child for school here in
Canada.

I need my own birth certificate to apply for passport and the domestic
ID card; to marry; to register a child; to apply for pensions and
certain other benefits; to inherit; and for various immigration
matters.

The fact that I've lived in two foreign countries certainly means that
I've needed it more often than the average person.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 23:46:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:49:58 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
I forgot about Social Security. I may have had to provide my birth
certificate to get a Social Security number, but that was sometime in
the 1950s. I can't remember doing it.

As to the rest of things you mention, with the exception of the
passport requirement, you could provide most of those places with an
official looking document you made on your own computer and list
yourself as a "unicorn" and it would pass.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-12-03 17:21:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 17:49:58 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:41:35 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
The problem is in the societal practice. Most people who can ask to see
your birth certificate don't have a legitimate interest in knowing
medical details about you. So even though it says "sex", this entry is
often understood to specify gender. And most trans people wouldn't
agree that their gender has changed. Problem is you don't have a
gender at birth.
Who are these "most people" that can ask to see one's birth
certificate?
The only times I've ever had to get my birth certificate out of the
safety deposit box is when I was apply for a passport. In that case,
it's proof of birth in the United States. My passport states that I
am a "M", but the real reason the government asked for my birth
certificate was to determine birth location.
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
I forgot about Social Security. I may have had to provide my birth
certificate to get a Social Security number, but that was sometime in
the 1950s. I can't remember doing it.
As to the rest of things you mention, with the exception of the
passport requirement, you could provide most of those places with an
official looking document you made on your own computer and list
yourself as a "unicorn" and it would pass.
Perhaps in your country, because there aren't any substantial child and
parental benefits. If parents get a year off work on a percentage of
their income, and a few hundred dollars per month for each child for at
least 18 years, the checks may be a little tighter.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 15:56:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
How do the school authorities handle that? Which of the play groups did
they gravitate to in preschool? Did that choice agree with their external
genitalia? (When they was born, someone announced "It's a ____!" based on
what they saw.)
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-03 16:55:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do the school authorities handle that? Which of the play groups did
they gravitate to in preschool? Did that choice agree with their external
genitalia? (When they was born, someone announced "It's a ____!" based on
what they saw.)
Quite smoothly, as far as I am aware.
But the trend is very recent, so long-term effects are as yet unknown.

/Anders, Denmark.
charles
2019-12-03 17:17:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Adam Funk
2019-12-04 11:50:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
--
Not even computers will replace committees, because committees buy
computers. ---Shepherd Mead
Katy Jennison
2019-12-04 14:54:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought we
were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
--
Katy Jennison
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-04 15:05:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance,
social insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for
parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought
we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-04 15:38:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought
we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's a contraction of "honey."
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-04 19:44:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:38:20 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very
popular in Sweden to have gender-neutral
daycare/preschool/kindergarten where children are referred to as
"hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I
thought we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's a contraction of "honey."
Pronounced 'Hunny' Over Here.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-04 19:58:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:38:20 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very
popular in Sweden to have gender-neutral
daycare/preschool/kindergarten where children are referred to as
"hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I
thought we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's a contraction of "honey."
Pronounced 'Hunny' Over Here.
And "hon" is pronounced [hVn]. Just like Attila.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-05 07:28:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:38:20 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very
popular in Sweden to have gender-neutral
daycare/preschool/kindergarten where children are referred to as
"hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I
thought we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
It's a contraction of "honey."
Pronounced 'Hunny' Over Here.
As one might guess from seeing that Winnie the Pooh's honey jars are
labelled "Hunny".
--
athel
Madhu
2019-12-05 10:15:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 15:38:20 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, December 4, 2019 at 10:05:24 AM UTC-5, Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 04 Dec 2019 14:54:21 GMT, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I
thought we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
hon estly? Presumably the US version implies the addresse is a hunky
honcho.
I've seen "HONH HONH HONH" thrown around as a parody of a french laugh
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
It's a contraction of "honey."
Pronounced 'Hunny' Over Here.
As one might guess from seeing that Winnie the Pooh's honey jars are
labelled "Hunny".
I'm hoping DKleinecke can tell us about the Humboldt Hunnies
David Kleinecke
2019-12-05 19:18:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
I'm hoping DKleinecke can tell us about the Humboldt Hunnies
The closest thing we have to Huns in Humboldt County is loggers.
Or maybe people who want to built windmill farm on the ridges.

The Bank is about to foreclose on the Loleta Cheese Factory.

The bees are carrying on and good honey is produced (we have lots
of flowers - some blooming as I write) but our heavy duty crop is
weed and the weed business is currently in wild chaos.

The silver lining is that they are now cracking down on illegal
grows. Most of the illegals are Mexican cartel figures not lovable
burnt-out hippies.

Howm I doin, Minnie?
Peter Moylan
2019-12-04 20:30:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought
we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
Which prompts the question: was there ever a time when politicians were
honourable?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Richard Heathfield
2019-12-04 20:33:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun.  For a minute I thought
we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
Which prompts the question: was there ever a time when politicians were
honourable?
Honourable examples crop up from time to time, like sultanas in muesli.
--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-05 03:34:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought
we were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
Which prompts the question: was there ever a time when politicians were
honourable?
I dealt with politicians as a journalist for more than 40 years.
I found some were honourable, some were not. The biggest scoundrels
among them -- people like Trump, Johnson, Putin -- are not only corrupt
beyond hope but also ruthless, and they tend to rise to the top. But many --
more than half, I'd say -- saw politics as public service. They were
good people acting selflessly.

bill
Ken Blake
2019-12-04 20:40:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun.
Yes, short for "honey."
--
Ken
s***@gmail.com
2019-12-05 00:28:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
Ah, that's the American 'hon' pronounced hun. For a minute I thought we
were back with Hon Treasurers and the like.
IFRTA "Hon Treasures", and wondered if we would segue
to dinnusty vs dine-usty.

Remember the vault of warrior statues?
National Geographic, among many other publications,
and even central in the game Qin.

Turns out that at the time of that emperor's death,
the population (and the army) was greatly reduced by a viscious period of war,
and sacrificing live soldiers to honor the dead
was just too great a cost.
The advancement in statuary techniques
had commercial value, too.

/dps
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-04 15:13:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by charles
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular in
Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten where
children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
in BrE, hens are female
& "hon" is more likely to come up in AmE
or in Jessica Mitford's book Hons and Rebels (called something
different in the USA).
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 20:47:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do the school authorities handle that? Which of the play groups did
they gravitate to in preschool? Did that choice agree with their external
genitalia? (When they was born, someone announced "It's a ____!" based on
what they saw.)
Quite smoothly, as far as I am aware.
But the trend is very recent, so long-term effects are as yet unknown.
You must have answered "How do the schools handle it," but not the question
about the behavior of children who have been deprived of a pronoun.
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-04 07:28:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do the school authorities handle that? Which of the play groups did
they gravitate to in preschool? Did that choice agree with their external
genitalia? (When they was born, someone announced "It's a ____!" based on
what they saw.)
Quite smoothly, as far as I am aware.
But the trend is very recent, so long-term effects are as yet unknown.
You must have answered "How do the schools handle it,"
Actually, by interjecting a specific situation, I changed the referent
of "that", so I didn't answer your original questions at all, but a
related set.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but not the question
about the behavior of children who have been deprived of a pronoun.
In the Swedish situation I am referring to, I believe all children
use the same non-gender practices, so the question wouldn't arise
in the way you are suggesting. I don't know whether the children
self-organize into gender- (or sex-) conforming subgroups.

And, as I wrote quite explicitly, they have not been "deprived of
a pronoun": All use the same non-gendered pronoun.

/Anders, Denmark
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-04 14:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
in Sweden to have gender-neutral daycare/preschool/kindergarten
where children are referred to as "hen" rather than "han or "hon".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
How do the school authorities handle that? Which of the play groups did
they gravitate to in preschool? Did that choice agree with their external
genitalia? (When they was born, someone announced "It's a ____!" based on
what they saw.)
Quite smoothly, as far as I am aware.
But the trend is very recent, so long-term effects are as yet unknown.
You must have answered "How do the schools handle it,"
Actually, by interjecting a specific situation, I changed the referent
of "that", so I didn't answer your original questions at all, but a
related set.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but not the question
about the behavior of children who have been deprived of a pronoun.
In the Swedish situation I am referring to, I believe all children
use the same non-gender practices, so the question wouldn't arise
in the way you are suggesting. I don't know whether the children
self-organize into gender- (or sex-) conforming subgroups.
And, as I wrote quite explicitly, they have not been "deprived of
a pronoun": All use the same non-gendered pronoun.
It has been observed, especially by parents who attempted to raise their
US children free of gender stereotypes, that such boys play fighting games
and girls play keeping-house games, from their earliest nursery-school
(nowadays called "pre-K") days. I believe there was discussion of whether this was because of cues from the social environment that the most diligent
parents couldn't protect their offspring from, or some innate differences.

Do not ask for references: this was from long ago, when such questions
were coming to the fore.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-03 21:03:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
I don't know about Quinn's child, but apparently it is very popular
Whom, incidentally, Q referred to as Q's "son" in a message I saw shortly
after.

(Or has there been more than one offspring?)
Quinn C
2019-12-03 17:21:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
When my child was born, I needed the child's birth certificate to
register them in a number of places, like health insurance, social
insurance number and child benefits, and to ask for parental benefits.
Are you insisting that your child not be considered either a boy or a girl?
No, I didn't do that back then, although I would like to try if I had a
child now. But even that would mean that from age 3 or so, I would
follow the child's preference.

In the above, I just decided not to mention that irrelevant detail.
I've already done that on various occasions, with various characters,
and try to make it into a practice.

In this specific instance, it kind of just happened, because the first
draft started "When a child is born", and I did minimal changes later.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-02 17:51:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at
at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
Let me try to explain this from a somewhat different angle. In the
case of a trans person, gender assigned at birth is private and
sensitive information. But the "sex" field of the birth certificate
isn't generally treated as private and sensitive information.
Why the distinction ...
Maybe what needs to change is the latter. My ultimate goal is to get
sex/gender off any general ID documents anyway. It can be kept on
medical records; we are used to treating those with a little more
secrecy.
... as both sex and gender could equally well be considered private and
sensitive, AFAICS. And no, it would not bother me to see your suggested
change implemented - but I suspect that removing sex/gender information
from passports (where the distinction is not made) will meet opposition
from some of the countries you might have an interest in visiting.

/Anders, Denmark.
Janet
2019-12-02 18:02:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted. She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process. The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know.
That is true for adopted persons (in England Wales and Scotland).
Their original birth certificate remains on the register, where they can
obtain it, as many do later when seeking their birth family.

Though for other purposes (like obtaining a passport, marrying)
adopted persons use the new ID ( new names and new parents),shown on
their Certificate of Adoption.

The only Brits who CAN get their birth certificate gender changed ,
are transgender people. Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender
Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change
their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth
certificate with their preferred gender on it.
(They are not required to have had surgery)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

Janet
Paul Wolff
2019-12-02 23:07:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, at 13:17:51, Jerry Friedman
A few US states join Afghanistan and North Korea on the list of
polities without any proper rules in the matter of birth
certificates.
<https://www.texasobserver.org/texas-failure-birth-certificate-gender
-changes-international-problem/>
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must confess
that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate in the
specific case mentioned in this article should be wrong: The birth
certificate documents the state of affairs at the time of the
person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs at at later
date (by surgery in this case) should affect said certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of
birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at the time
of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption. Those people
make up a significant political force. A good deal of the "DNA
genealogy" that is happening now is from adoptees trying to move beyond
the faked certificates to their real ancestry.
If the gender-neutral people succeed in their push to have birth
certificates altered, that would upset the very much larger group of
adoptees fighting to have their real birth certificates revealed.
My sister is adopted. She had her birth certificate changed, not for
any reason related to her biological parents (who she has no interest
in), but as a way of changing the spelling of her first name.
One approach would be to let the person whose birth was recorded, but
no one else, change their birth certificate by a legal process. The
original might be kept in some private way for historical purposes.
Here, which legally is England and Wales, a birth certificate is a
document which certifies (that is, states with legal authority) what is
recorded in the relevant Register of Births. No-one can change their own
birth certificate without falsifying it. And the Register, a public
record, is once and for all, as far as I know.
That is true for adopted persons (in England Wales and Scotland).
Their original birth certificate remains on the register, where they can
obtain it, as many do later when seeking their birth family.
Though for other purposes (like obtaining a passport, marrying)
adopted persons use the new ID ( new names and new parents),shown on
their Certificate of Adoption.
The only Brits who CAN get their birth certificate gender changed ,
are transgender people. Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender
Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change
their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth
certificate with their preferred gender on it.
The piece of paper I call my birth certificate is actually headed:
CERTIFIED COPY of an ENTRY OF BIRTH Pursuant to the Births and Deaths
Registrations Acts, 1836 to 1947."

It goes on to say "I, nnnnn, Superintendent Registrar for ddddddd, do
hereby certify that this is a true copy of Entry No. xxx in the Register
Book No. yy, and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody."

Being a certified copy of the entry, it's hard to see how it can report
anything other than the words of the entry.

It does say as a footnote: CAUTION.--Any person who (1) falsifies any of
the particulars on this Certificate, or (2) uses it as true, knowing it
to be falsified, is liable to Prosecution.

Mine gives my sex as "Boy". What the notional birth certificate of a
re-sexed person says, I'd be very interested to read.
Post by Janet
(They are not required to have had surgery)
- which would have been post-partum, I presume, and therefore after the
event certified.
Post by Janet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004
So "Certified to be a true copy of /a/ record in the custody of the
Registrar General".
--
Paul
Quinn C
2019-12-03 01:16:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
CERTIFIED COPY of an ENTRY OF BIRTH Pursuant to the Births and Deaths
Registrations Acts, 1836 to 1947."
In Germany, there used to be three types of documents referring to the
birth register:

(1) Certified duplicate of the birth register
(2) Birth certificate
(3) Certificate of ancestry

(1) contains the complete record, possibly with amendments. It's
required upon marriage, but not any other time that I know of.

(2) is a shortened version of it, used for most official purposes. You
have some say about which information you want on there.

(3) used to be part of Germany's way of dealing with adoption. The
certificate of ancestry would state the biological parents only, while
the birth certificate would only mention the current legal parents
after adoption. (1) presumably contains both.

I received a (3) for my son as a matter as convention, and didn't know
about the difference then. It has, however, been abolished since.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-02 18:08:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:45:32 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
I also have a laptop at work; when at my desk, it is hooked up to
a decent keyboard, a mouse, an external monitor (no, I do not want two,
thank you) and a headset
I have to laugh at this and the other similar comments. Not that
there is any wrong about the comments, though.
The benefit of a laptop used to be the portability of the
device...just grab it and go.
And that advantage I do have.
Now, though, when a laptop is used it is often coupled with the same
external devices that make a desktop unit unportable. The built-in
laptop features (keyboard, mouse, monitor screen) are not used.
Not when in the docking station, no (though some of my similarly-equipped
colleagues make active use of the built-in monitor as a third screen)
It's
even possible to attach an external drive and not use the internal
drive of the laptop.
Yes, I know you can uncouple all of the externals and use the laptop
as a portable device.
So what are you laughing about?

I should perhaps add that the additional price (to my employer) of
having a laptop as compared to a desktop is inconsequential in
comparison with the salary I'm paid.
In return I'm completely mobile, should the need arise, without having
to do extensive preparations to ensure that things work like I'm used to.

/Anders, Denmark.
Tony Cooper
2019-12-02 20:54:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 19:08:12 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:45:32 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
I also have a laptop at work; when at my desk, it is hooked up to
a decent keyboard, a mouse, an external monitor (no, I do not want two,
thank you) and a headset
I have to laugh at this and the other similar comments. Not that
there is any wrong about the comments, though.
The benefit of a laptop used to be the portability of the
device...just grab it and go.
And that advantage I do have.
Now, though, when a laptop is used it is often coupled with the same
external devices that make a desktop unit unportable. The built-in
laptop features (keyboard, mouse, monitor screen) are not used.
Not when in the docking station, no (though some of my similarly-equipped
colleagues make active use of the built-in monitor as a third screen)
It's
even possible to attach an external drive and not use the internal
drive of the laptop.
Yes, I know you can uncouple all of the externals and use the laptop
as a portable device.
So what are you laughing about?
I'm laughing at the general use, not your specific use. There are
many laptops that are in use and *not* detached from the peripherals.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-12-03 17:01:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 19:08:12 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 13:45:32 +0100, "Anders D. Nygaard"
I also have a laptop at work; when at my desk, it is hooked up to
a decent keyboard, a mouse, an external monitor (no, I do not want two,
thank you) and a headset
I have to laugh at this and the other similar comments. Not that
there is any wrong about the comments, though.
The benefit of a laptop used to be the portability of the
device...just grab it and go.
And that advantage I do have.
Now, though, when a laptop is used it is often coupled with the same
external devices that make a desktop unit unportable. The built-in
laptop features (keyboard, mouse, monitor screen) are not used.
Not when in the docking station, no (though some of my similarly-equipped
colleagues make active use of the built-in monitor as a third screen)
It's
even possible to attach an external drive and not use the internal
drive of the laptop.
Yes, I know you can uncouple all of the externals and use the laptop
as a portable device.
So what are you laughing about?
I'm laughing at the general use, not your specific use. There are
many laptops that are in use and *not* detached from the peripherals.
Ah yes, you did write that there was nothing wrong with [mine and
similar] comments. Sorry for taking the defensive tack.

/Anders, Denmark
RH Draney
2019-12-02 18:09:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Not true, in my experience...when I decided to try it out (on an Apple
//c, which came with a built-in switch for changing the keyboard between
the two layouts) I quickly reached the same touchtyping speed I had
Was that a special option? I had a //e but no layout switch.
Bog standard for the //c....r
CDB
2019-12-02 20:03:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[chessboxing]
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch
invention. The real inventor though is Enki Bilal, a French
comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992) (who
seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
His cover features black and white checkered boxing gloves,
<Loading Image...>
So who invented the Loopkin? (It sounds a bit Dutch.)
https://preview.tinyurl.com/szb5shb
It says so on your site, Cyrille Varet.
<https://cyrillevaret.fr/loopkin-armchair-inspired-from-froid-equateur/>
But it is hardly an invention, merely a 3D realisation
from the drawing by Enki Bilal. BTW, it seems to be a one of a kind,
you can't buy one.
Only wait.
And why do you suspect a Dutch connection? The word 'Loopkin' is
already in the drawing by Enki Bilal, and there is nothing Dutch
about him,
The "loop", the "kin", and news about the invention of chessboxing.

EB could have been Dutch, or Flemish, for all I knew. Or they could
have borrowed it from a Dutchperchild, like the sport.
J. J. Lodder
2019-12-03 10:32:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
[chessboxing]
[faulty >>>> corrected]
Post by CDB
Never heard of it, but wikip informs me that it is a Dutch
invention. The real inventor though is Enki Bilal, a French
comic book artist, in his album 'Froid Equateur'. (1992) (who
seems to be completely unknown in the USA)
His cover features black and white checkered boxing gloves,
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Froid-%
C3%89quateur-01.jpg>
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
So who invented the Loopkin? (It sounds a bit Dutch.)
https://preview.tinyurl.com/szb5shb
It says so on your site, Cyrille Varet.
<https://cyrillevaret.fr/loopkin-armchair-inspired-from-froid-equateur/>
But it is hardly an invention, merely a 3D realisation
from the drawing by Enki Bilal. BTW, it seems to be a one of a kind,
you can't buy one.
Only wait.
And why do you suspect a Dutch connection? The word 'Loopkin' is
already in the drawing by Enki Bilal, and there is nothing Dutch
about him,
The "loop", the "kin", and news about the invention of chessboxing.
EB could have been Dutch, or Flemish, for all I knew. Or they could
have borrowed it from a Dutchperchild, like the sport.
'loop' is a form of the verb 'lopen', E. to walk.
A 'kin' is an English 'chin'.

Perhaps a 'loopkin', so a 'walk chin',
is what you get from too much chessboxing,

Jan

PS 'Loopkip' is an existing word. See for example
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InGhXkI_oBg>
for how it is done.
CDB
2019-12-03 12:20:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[Loopkin the Eurochair]
Post by CDB
And why do you suspect a Dutch connection? The word 'Loopkin' is
already in the drawing by Enki Bilal, and there is nothing Dutch
about him,
The "loop", the "kin", and news about the invention of
chessboxing.
EB could have been Dutch, or Flemish, for all I knew. Or they
could have borrowed it from a Dutchperchild, like the sport.
'loop' is a form of the verb 'lopen', E. to walk. A 'kin' is an
English 'chin'.
Perhaps a 'loopkin', so a 'walk chin', is what you get from too much
chessboxing,
PS 'Loopkip' is an existing word. See for example
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InGhXkI_oBg> for how it is done.
The walking chicken?
Peter Moylan
2019-12-03 00:51:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must
confess that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs
at at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said
certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.

That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 00:58:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Dec 2019 11:51:37 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Even taking into account your views on the matter, I must
confess that I have a hard time seeing that the birth certificate
The birth certificate documents the state of affairs at the time
of the person's birth; I fail to see why changing those affairs
at at later date (by surgery in this case) should affect said
certificate.
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.
That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
Maybe the Nansen passports should be brought back. If you are
stateless, you don't have to conform to any country's rules.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2019-12-03 09:27:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
I know a number of adoptees who are very much opposed to the faking
of birth certificates, by changing the details that were true at
the time of birth to those that applied at the time of adoption.
What if a detail *believed to be true* at the time of birth turns
out to be different from what was true then, e.g., paternity?
To the best of my knowledge, later evidence of paternity does not cause
a birth certificate to be altered. That's treated as separate
information, in the same way that later events like marriage or death
are not recorded on the birth certificate.
That's for Australia. This thread is throwing up the information that
different countries are not consistent with one another in such matters.
I'm not surprised, but it does mean that the birth certificate in some
cases has details that were false at the time but believed or claimed
to be true.
--
Not even computers will replace committees, because committees buy
computers. ---Shepherd Mead
Rich Ulrich
2019-12-03 16:48:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
WordPerfect came on the scene and I switched to WordPerfect. I would
be using WordPerfect today if Corel hadn't purchased it and fucked it
up royally. Today I use Open Office, but it's all personal stuff now.
I also switched to WordPerfect, but it was probably later than you. It
was with WordPerfect 4.2.
I use Open Office today because it is free. I think I was
happier with WordPerfect when I used it 25 years ago.
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Open Office keeps insisting on auto-indent whenever I number
some paragraphs. I seldom want that. WordPerfect allowed me
to "reveal codes" so I could delete or change unwanted provisions.

And I create some big tables of documentation. I do a lot of
SAVEs while entering data because Open Office is prone to
crash, losing the interim work.
I still use WordPerfect, and I still think its much better than Word,
OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Yes, Corel fucked it up royally when they
came out with 6.0, which was laden with bugs. It was because of those
bugs that many people (especially law firms) switched from WordPerfect
to Word. But all those things were in the distant past. WordPerfect is
fine today.
I recall reading that law firms and the Department of Justice
stayed with WordPerfect for a long time because competitors
did not provide an easy "strike-out-text" provision. That is,
a document proposing amendments to a law must show the old
text with a line drawn through every bit of it, before showing
the replacement text. The extreme example I remember was
for an "amended law" which was a total replacement, so there
was 500 pages of struck-out text before coming to the "amendment".
--
Rich Ulrich
Tony Cooper
2019-12-03 17:19:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Dec 2019 11:48:41 -0500, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
WordPerfect came on the scene and I switched to WordPerfect. I would
be using WordPerfect today if Corel hadn't purchased it and fucked it
up royally. Today I use Open Office, but it's all personal stuff now.
I also switched to WordPerfect, but it was probably later than you. It
was with WordPerfect 4.2.
I use Open Office today because it is free. I think I was
happier with WordPerfect when I used it 25 years ago.
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Open Office keeps insisting on auto-indent whenever I number
some paragraphs. I seldom want that. WordPerfect allowed me
to "reveal codes" so I could delete or change unwanted provisions.
Reveal Codes were one of the best features of WordPerfect. When I was
using WordPerfect I was working with a number of OCR scans of typed
material that had been typed on an older manual typewriter with dirty
keys. Editing was simple using Reveal Codes.
Post by Rich Ulrich
And I create some big tables of documentation. I do a lot of
SAVEs while entering data because Open Office is prone to
crash, losing the interim work.
I haven't experienced that problem. I keep a check register in
spreadsheet format, but that's about the only thing that of any size
that I do. I do have the Autosave set for 1 minute.

Tools>Options>General>Load Save>Set AutoRecovery every...
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2019-12-03 18:23:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 03 Dec 2019 11:48:41 -0500, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
WordPerfect came on the scene and I switched to WordPerfect. I would
be using WordPerfect today if Corel hadn't purchased it and fucked it
up royally. Today I use Open Office, but it's all personal stuff now.
I also switched to WordPerfect, but it was probably later than you. It
was with WordPerfect 4.2.
I use Open Office today because it is free. I think I was
happier with WordPerfect when I used it 25 years ago.
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Open Office keeps insisting on auto-indent whenever I number
some paragraphs. I seldom want that. WordPerfect allowed me
to "reveal codes" so I could delete or change unwanted provisions.
Reveal Codes were one of the best features of WordPerfect.
I agree, except that I would change "were" to "is."

Even though Reveal Codes is a feature that can be turned on or off, many
people think it has to be on, and hate WordPerfect for that reason.
Post by Tony Cooper
When I was
using WordPerfect I was working with a number of OCR scans of typed
material that had been typed on an older manual typewriter with dirty
keys. Editing was simple using Reveal Codes.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2019-12-03 18:32:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 03 Dec 2019 11:48:41 -0500, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
WordPerfect came on the scene and I switched to WordPerfect. I would
be using WordPerfect today if Corel hadn't purchased it and fucked it
up royally. Today I use Open Office, but it's all personal stuff now.
I also switched to WordPerfect, but it was probably later than you. It
was with WordPerfect 4.2.
I use Open Office today because it is free. I think I was
happier with WordPerfect when I used it 25 years ago.
I have no beef with Microsoft, but I don't see a need to use their
wordprocessing or spreadsheet apps when Open Office does the same
thing for free.
Open Office keeps insisting on auto-indent whenever I number
some paragraphs. I seldom want that. WordPerfect allowed me
to "reveal codes" so I could delete or change unwanted provisions.
Reveal Codes were one of the best features of WordPerfect.
I agree, except that I would change "were" to "is."
Even though Reveal Codes is a feature that can be turned on or off, many
people think it has to be on, and hate WordPerfect for that reason.
I'm reminded that ten or fifteen years ago, I gave a
lecture/demonstration on configuring WordPerfect to members of our local
PC users group.

One of the features I talked about was Reveal Codes. One of the
attendees who chose to come to my presentation was a woman who not only
didn't know what Reveal Codes was, she didn't even realize that
WordPerfect was not the same as the word processor she used, Microsoft Word.
--
Ken
Peter Moylan
2019-12-04 00:40:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
One of the features I talked about was Reveal Codes. One of the
attendees who chose to come to my presentation was a woman who not
only didn't know what Reveal Codes was, she didn't even realize that
WordPerfect was not the same as the word processor she used,
Microsoft Word.
I've met people who think that "Word" and "Windows" are the same thing.
It causes great confusion when they ask for help.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-04 14:44:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
One of the features I talked about was Reveal Codes. One of the
attendees who chose to come to my presentation was a woman who not
only didn't know what Reveal Codes was, she didn't even realize that
WordPerfect was not the same as the word processor she used, Microsoft Word.
I've met people who think that "Word" and "Windows" are the same thing.
It causes great confusion when they ask for help.
It can be confusing at first. Coming from a Mac environment in 2007
or so, I was accustomed to the keyboard shortcuts for the common
accented letters being platform-wide, but in Windows it turned out
there are none, and the keyboard shortcuts worked only within Word.
(And custom ones don't even populate across Office, meaning I need
to to a lot of Ctrl-Dragging or Copy-Pasting to get transcriptions
into PowerPoint.)
Ken Blake
2019-12-04 20:37:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ken Blake
One of the features I talked about was Reveal Codes. One of the
attendees who chose to come to my presentation was a woman who not
only didn't know what Reveal Codes was, she didn't even realize that
WordPerfect was not the same as the word processor she used,
Microsoft Word.
I've met people who think that "Word" and "Windows" are the same thing.
It causes great confusion when they ask for help.
And I've met those who think that "Windows" and "Microsoft" are two
names for the same company.
--
Ken
Rich Ulrich
2019-12-04 16:02:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 03 Dec 2019 12:19:01 -0500, Tony Cooper
<***@invalid.com> wrote:

me >>
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Rich Ulrich
Open Office keeps insisting on auto-indent whenever I number
some paragraphs. I seldom want that. WordPerfect allowed me
to "reveal codes" so I could delete or change unwanted provisions.
Reveal Codes were one of the best features of WordPerfect. When I was
using WordPerfect I was working with a number of OCR scans of typed
material that had been typed on an older manual typewriter with dirty
keys. Editing was simple using Reveal Codes.
Post by Rich Ulrich
And I create some big tables of documentation. I do a lot of
SAVEs while entering data because Open Office is prone to
crash, losing the interim work.
I haven't experienced that problem. I keep a check register in
spreadsheet format, but that's about the only thing that of any size
that I do. I do have the Autosave set for 1 minute.
Tools>Options>General>Load Save>Set AutoRecovery every...
Thanks for the hint. I just now reduced AutoRecovery
from 15 to 2 minutes. Not knowing where to find it, I had
put that possibility out of mind. Vaguely, I thought it was
set and not functioning. I see it was set way too high.

My documents that crash -
I add items to the bottom and periodically sort them into
place. I suspect that the structure is hard to maintain in places
where I've done some highlighting or font changes. Those
insert a bunch of codes.
--
Rich Ulrich
Tak To
2019-12-05 09:14:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Who seriously avoids using singular they in cases like "Someone left
their phone here"? What do you say?
FWIW, that's a singular "their", not "they".
It's not worth anything.
Just to be clear, that's an observation on language, not on you.
Understood; never had a doubt.
"They"
and "their" are just forms of the same word.
Be they different forms (cases) and not different words, it
does not follow that the different forms are used with the same
prevalence or pattern. That are lots of words to used in place
of pronouns in the subject or object case -- this, that, these,
those, some, one, someone, who, whom, etc but far fewer for
possessive pronouns (which are arguably adjectives except when
following "of"). There is no this's, that's, these's, those's,
some's, who's or whom's.
"who's" has come to be written "whose", and "whom's" wouldn't make
sense.
[Apology for the delayed reply. Two of my computers crashed and
it took me a while to get things back up and running.]

I was referring to:
A1 He has his phone turned on.
vs A2 Who has who's/whose phone turned on?

as well as
B1 She carries a can of MACE with her at all times.
vs B2 Who carries a can of MACE with whom at all times?

Note that one can't use two interrogative pronouns in a row
because there is the inherent ambiguity whether the same or
a (potentially) different referent is meant. So to avoid
ambiguity the second pronoun is switched to a regular (i.e.,
definite) pronoun in the same-referent case.

In this light, it is conceivable that "whom's" be used to
convey the same-inferent case:
C1 We can talk to him about the use of his car.
vs C2 Whom can we talk to about the use of whom's car?
Otherwise, yes, there are holes in the paradigm of some words,
but where the forms exist, they are used according to the same rules.
I'm not aware of an exception (that's not flagged on as an error by at
least some native speakers, see below.)
Sorry, I am not sure what rules you were referring to.
I think I saw a post of Tony's where he remarked "I don't know if it
was 'they' or 'them' that Quinn asked for", and that question just
doesn't make sense.
Sorry, don't remember Tony's comment either.
Some people say "My pronouns are they/them/theirs", and I always wonder
why you need to name all three, because I haven't met anyone who
prefers, say "they/him/hers", and it would be quite a feat to get that
right.
I can't think of a situation in which people would enumerate
"their" pronouns. Once again my point was simply that the
usage patterns of the subjective, objective, possessive
(2 kinds) and the reflexive forms are not necessarily exactly
parallel in terms of markedness.
That said, I often do say "they/them" just to add a bit of redundancy,
but I don't think I've ever said a triplet.
But it may just be that I take this for granted because my native
tongue still has a proper case system, and that English speakers lose
all feeling for these things. The trouble they have with "whom", or the
prevalence of things like "for my wife and I" are indications of that.
That's a different topic for another day. I wonder patterns
such as "me too" (instead if "I too") are the result of
influence from the French, in which there are stressed pronouns
(moi et al).

----- -----
"Someone left their phone here. They'll be missing it dearly! We should
get it to them as quickly as possible."
This example does not invalidate what I have just said.
<https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they>
I am not interested in prescribing usage. I am interested in
the validity of the descriptive grammar that is used (by some)
to justify the prescription. To wit, I am questioning the
prevalence of the (unmarked) usage of the singular "they" in
contemporary English.
I don't think that the OED and Merriam-Webster have been taken over by
people with an agenda. They include a usage based on it consistently
(over the course of a number of years) being found with a certain
frequency in published texts.
I am not accusing anyone of having an agenda. The apa.org
article that you quoted *is* prescriptive, and not only because
it says it is "endorsed" by the M-W when in reality M-W does
not endorse any usage (as opposed to merely recording it).

That said, I do question why M-W marks the use of "them"
for "those" as "non-standard" but not the use of "they" for
one who wants others to use "they" when referring to
oneself.

----- -----
Markedness in this case has a lot to do with the definiteness of
the referent, especially the numerical definiteness -- to say
the very least.
For example, "That's the one! They are the murderer!" is very
marked.
I guess I'm already used to it. I'd definitely find "That's the one! He
or she is the murderer!" weirder.
So our usage patterns are different. Again, the question is,
what portions of the English speakers find "they are the
murderer!" in this example prominently marked-somewhat marked-
unmarked?
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB
2019-12-05 14:05:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[DIY pronouns]
Markedness in this case has a lot to do with the definiteness of
the referent, especially the numerical definiteness -- to say
the very least.
For example, "That's the one! They are the murderer!" is very
marked.
I guess I'm already used to it. I'd definitely find "That's the
one! He or she is the murderer!" weirder.
So our usage patterns are different. Again, the question is, what
portions of the English speakers find "they are the murderer!" in
this example prominently marked-somewhat marked- unmarked?
"That's the one!" indicates a particular person. Unless you are
pointing at a mysterious figure behind the curtain or someone who has
previously informed you that their pronoun is "they", you would
naturally use "he" or "she" (but not both).
Quinn C
2019-12-05 17:45:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
[DIY pronouns]
Markedness in this case has a lot to do with the definiteness of
the referent, especially the numerical definiteness -- to say
the very least.
For example, "That's the one! They are the murderer!" is very
marked.
I guess I'm already used to it. I'd definitely find "That's the
one! He or she is the murderer!" weirder.
So our usage patterns are different. Again, the question is, what
portions of the English speakers find "they are the murderer!" in
this example prominently marked-somewhat marked- unmarked?
"That's the one!" indicates a particular person. Unless you are
pointing at a mysterious figure behind the curtain or someone who has
previously informed you that their pronoun is "they", you would
naturally use "he" or "she" (but not both).
For that medium-sized person in jeans and a hoodie running over there?

There was a time when you could guess which one of "he" or "she" will
fit with 99% accuracy. These days, it's probably only 95% under the
best conditions, and rapidly falling. I think we'll all be better off
when we stop guessing.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Quinn C
2019-12-05 18:02:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
following "of"). There is no this's, that's, these's, those's,
some's, who's or whom's.
"who's" has come to be written "whose", and "whom's" wouldn't make
sense.
[Apology for the delayed reply. Two of my computers crashed and
it took me a while to get things back up and running.]
A1 He has his phone turned on.
vs A2 Who has who's/whose phone turned on?
as well as
B1 She carries a can of MACE with her at all times.
vs B2 Who carries a can of MACE with whom at all times?
Note that one can't use two interrogative pronouns in a row
because there is the inherent ambiguity whether the same or
a (potentially) different referent is meant. So to avoid
ambiguity the second pronoun is switched to a regular (i.e.,
definite) pronoun in the same-referent case.
In this light, it is conceivable that "whom's" be used to
C1 We can talk to him about the use of his car.
vs C2 Whom can we talk to about the use of whom's car?
Real English doesn't work like that, and sorry, I'm not particularly
interested in this hypothetical variant of English.
Post by Tak To
But it may just be that I take this for granted because my native
tongue still has a proper case system, and that English speakers lose
all feeling for these things. The trouble they have with "whom", or the
prevalence of things like "for my wife and I" are indications of that.
That's a different topic for another day. I wonder patterns
such as "me too" (instead if "I too") are the result of
influence from the French, in which there are stressed pronouns
(moi et al).
Yes, but I think that's a separate topic from "whom" as well.
Post by Tak To
"Someone left their phone here. They'll be missing it dearly! We should
get it to them as quickly as possible."
This example does not invalidate what I have just said.
<https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/grammar/singular-they>
I am not interested in prescribing usage. I am interested in
the validity of the descriptive grammar that is used (by some)
to justify the prescription. To wit, I am questioning the
prevalence of the (unmarked) usage of the singular "they" in
contemporary English.
I don't think that the OED and Merriam-Webster have been taken over by
people with an agenda. They include a usage based on it consistently
(over the course of a number of years) being found with a certain
frequency in published texts.
I am not accusing anyone of having an agenda. The apa.org
article that you quoted *is* prescriptive, and not only because
it says it is "endorsed" by the M-W when in reality M-W does
not endorse any usage (as opposed to merely recording it).
Yes, the APA article is prescriptive, but I think the inclusion in M-W
is a strong indication that the usage exists outside of formally
prescribed language.

The existence of prescriptions like that of the APA shows that there
are situations in mainstream society - not only in certain subcultures
- where it's strongly preferred to honor people's pronoun preferences
beyond he and she.
Post by Tak To
That said, I do question why M-W marks the use of "them"
for "those" as "non-standard" but not the use of "they" for
one who wants others to use "they" when referring to
oneself.
I don't know which criteria M-W uses for that designation, but I would
point out that there is no "standard" pronoun to refer to a person of a
gender other than male or female. Maybe a designation as "non-standard"
requires the existence of a standard alternative.
--
... in the German people, ... [Hitler] found a natural instrument
which he was able to shape to his own sinister ends.
-- William Shirer
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