Discussion:
That which
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Joy Beeson
2020-02-13 04:19:52 UTC
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While bringing my diary up to date, I typed:

"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."

And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.

But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
the original meaning again:

"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."



And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
David Kleinecke
2020-02-13 18:00:32 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
In "Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past
Fribley Field." the "which" modifies "I went home the straightest
way". But "that" doesn't - it modifies "way".

I prefer "it" to either "which" or "that"
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 18:12:01 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
In "Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past
Fribley Field." the "which" modifies "I went home the straightest
way". But "that" doesn't - it modifies "way".
...

Why doesn't the "which" clause modify way?

How about "The straightest way, which took me past Fribley field, led
to a big hole in the road, and I had to backtrack"? Does the "which"
clause modify "way" there, and if so, why is it different from Joy's
example?

And why shouldn't my response consist of nothing but questions?
--
Jerry Friedman
David Kleinecke
2020-02-13 20:17:41 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
In "Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past
Fribley Field." the "which" modifies "I went home the straightest
way". But "that" doesn't - it modifies "way".
...
Why doesn't the "which" clause modify way?
How about "The straightest way, which took me past Fribley field, led
to a big hole in the road, and I had to backtrack"? Does the "which"
clause modify "way" there, and if so, why is it different from Joy's
example?
And why shouldn't my response consist of nothing but questions?
Maybe a dialectic difference but I have noticed that our dialects
seem to be very closely related.

To me "The straightest way, which took me past Fribley field, ... "
has a "which" that modifies "the straightest way" and not "way" which
is why I don't hear it as a variant of "that". The "the straightest"
matters. The "which" version implies it just happened that the way
went past Fribley Filed. With "that" only "way" is modified and the
way is the most straight past the field.

This raises some questions about how understanding done.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 20:29:30 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
In "Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past
Fribley Field." the "which" modifies "I went home the straightest
way". But "that" doesn't - it modifies "way".
...
Why doesn't the "which" clause modify way?
How about "The straightest way, which took me past Fribley field, led
to a big hole in the road, and I had to backtrack"? Does the "which"
clause modify "way" there, and if so, why is it different from Joy's
example?
And why shouldn't my response consist of nothing but questions?
Maybe a dialectic difference but I have noticed that our dialects
seem to be very closely related.
I agree that they're close.
Post by David Kleinecke
To me "The straightest way, which took me past Fribley field, ... "
has a "which" that modifies "the straightest way" and not "way" which
is why I don't hear it as a variant of "that". The "the straightest"
matters. The "which" version implies it just happened that the way
went past Fribley Filed. With "that" only "way" is modified and the
way is the most straight past the field.
This raises some questions about how understanding done.
I think I see what you're saying.

A possibly interesting difference is

I took the straightest of the possible ways, which *goes* past
Fribley Field.

I took the straightest of the possible ways that *go* past
Fribley Field.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 18:09:28 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
A good example for future use.
Post by Joy Beeson
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
Which makes we think about looking up the history of "that", but not
right now.
Post by Joy Beeson
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
I blame Fribley.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2020-02-14 00:43:54 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley
Field."
And realized that "I went home the straighest way that took me past
Fribley Field." would have said something entirely different.
A good example for future use.
Post by Joy Beeson
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley
Field."
Which makes we think about looking up the history of "that", but not
right now.
As I recall it, in Anglo-Saxon times "that" was simply the neuter form
of the definite article.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@aol.com
2020-02-13 18:27:15 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
And illogical, as there's only one "straightest way" from one point to
another (typically, a straight line), which should preclude the use of
"that" - unless the enunciator precisely wanted to go past Fribley Fields,
and they chose the straightest way out of several others for that
purpose - but that seems unlikely.
Post by Joy Beeson
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-13 18:35:18 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
And illogical, as there's only one "straightest way" from one point to
another (typically, a straight line), which should preclude the use of
"that" - unless the enunciator precisely wanted to go past Fribley Fields,
and they chose the straightest way out of several others for that
purpose - but that seems unlikely.
...

That's how I'd interpret it, though. Maybe the speaker wanted to see
the flock of Snow Buntings and Lapland Longspurs that had been reported
there, or the kids playing football in the snow, or the preparations
for Winter Carnival, or something.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2020-02-13 18:45:02 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
And illogical, as there's only one "straightest way" from one point to
another (typically, a straight line), which should preclude the use of
"that" - unless the enunciator precisely wanted to go past Fribley Fields,
and they chose the straightest way out of several others for that
purpose - but that seems unlikely.
...
That's how I'd interpret it, though. Maybe the speaker wanted to see
the flock of Snow Buntings and Lapland Longspurs that had been reported
there, or the kids playing football in the snow, or the preparations
for Winter Carnival, or something.
With all those repetitions, I expect "Fribley Fields" to host Slithy
Toves.
--
The only BS around here is butternut squash, one of the dozens of
varieties of squash I grow. I hope you like squash.
-- Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, S01E10
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-13 20:03:47 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two hours, I
went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley Field."
And realized that
"I went home the straighest way that took me past Fribley Field."
would have said something entirely different.
And illogical, as there's only one "straightest way" from one point to
another
Nonsense. Fribley Field may be quite large, with various "ways" going
past it from different directions or making various detours (see Michelin
notes), and Joy wanted to take the straightest one of all those options.
Post by b***@aol.com
(typically, a straight line), which should preclude the use of
"that" - unless the enunciator precisely wanted to go past Fribley Fields,
and they chose the straightest way out of several others for that
purpose - but that seems unlikely.
What you are describing seems to be her first version.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Joy Beeson
But if I divorce "way" from "that" with a full stop or a dash, we have
"I went home the straightest way. That took me past Fribley Field."
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
At what age did one find Little Lulu funny?
RH Draney
2020-02-14 06:39:21 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
At what age did one find Little Lulu funny?
Some time before one realized that Little Iodine was edgier....r
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-14 13:38:12 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Joy Beeson
And now "past Fribley Field" is starting to sound strange. Reminds me
of a funnybook I read in the forties, that ended with Little Lulu and
Alvin giggling on the ground helplessly repeating "foot foot foot".
At what age did one find Little Lulu funny?
Some time before one realized that Little Iodine was edgier....r
I forbore from invoking Nancy.

Peter Moylan
2020-02-14 00:52:16 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Joy Beeson
"Since I'd been walking around in Goodwill and Meijer for two
hours, I went home the straightest way, which took me past Fribley
Field."
And realized that "I went home the straighest way that took me
past Fribley Field." would have said something entirely different.
And illogical, as there's only one "straightest way" from one point
to another (typically, a straight line), which should preclude the
use of "that" - unless the enunciator precisely wanted to go past
Fribley Fields, and they chose the straightest way out of several
others for that purpose - but that seems unlikely.
I see nothing illogical about it. It's the most direct way that meets
the stated constraint.

A straight line is the straightest way only when there are no
constraints, and that includes no obstacles. In the context of getting
home, it is usually understood that constraints do exist, and that for
example walking through people's houses is not acceptable.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
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