Discussion:
Sheeting
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Tony Cooper
2020-02-14 14:08:14 UTC
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In a newspaper article I read:

"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."

That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
pensive hamster
2020-02-14 14:56:53 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.

Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
sail as close to the wind as possible? (That would normally be:
"sheet in hard".)
Ken Blake
2020-02-14 15:25:16 UTC
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Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Post by pensive hamster
that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
--
Ken
pensive hamster
2020-02-14 18:11:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
Ken Blake
2020-02-14 18:56:19 UTC
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Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
You can use whatever terms you want, but nautically, there are are two
things called "ropes": bell ropes, and foot ropes. Everything else is
called a "line."
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
--
Ken
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-14 19:32:36 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
You can use whatever terms you want, but nautically, there are are two
things called "ropes": bell ropes, and foot ropes. Everything else is
called a "line."
Are cables, hawsers, halyards, etc types of line?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
pensive hamster
2020-02-14 19:32:50 UTC
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Permalink
[...]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
You can use whatever terms you want, but nautically, there are are two
things called "ropes": bell ropes, and foot ropes. Everything else is
called a "line."
Bolt ropes aren't. Nor is wire rope, used for standing rigging.
And rope clutches can be used for securing lines.
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-14 21:08:38 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking
decisive
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame,
"but
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
they also reek a little of panic."
Post by Tony Cooper
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either.  There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on
the
Post by pensive hamster
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
You can use whatever terms you want, but nautically, there are are two
things called "ropes": bell ropes, and foot ropes. Everything else is
called a "line."
Except, as in the quoted phrase, when they are called "sheets".

OED
sheet, n.2
1. A rope (or chain) attached to either of the lower corners of a square
sail (or the after lower corner of a fore-and-aft sail), and used to
extend the sail or to alter its direction.
--
Sam Plusnet
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 16:57:04 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking
decisive
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame,
"but
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
they also reek a little of panic."
Post by Tony Cooper
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either.  There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on
the
Post by pensive hamster
rope(s)
"Lines," not "ropes," but yes.
Personally, I'd use "lines" for thinner control lines, such as cunningham,
kicker, barber hauler, etc., and "ropes" for thicker cordage, such as
sheets.
You can use whatever terms you want, but nautically, there are are two
things called "ropes": bell ropes, and foot ropes. Everything else is
called a "line."
Except, as in the quoted phrase, when they are called "sheets".
A "sheet" is a kind of line. All nautical lines have specific names:
"sheet," "halyard," "shroud," "downhaul," outhaul," etc.
--
Ken
Katy Jennison
2020-02-14 15:27:35 UTC
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Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
Googling leads to a site called Englishforums.com, where a question
about this phrase was asked in 2006, and answered by our very own late
very much lamented Bob Lieblich as follows:

Working through Google I found a definition of the phrae "sheet home" at
this site:
http://ladywashington.org/glossary.html
And here it is: "Sheet Home - 1) To haul the sheets of a sail all the
way through their guiding blocks at the yardarms of the yard below, up
to the clews, until they can go no further, so the sail may be used.
2) On the course sail, this means to haul on the leeward sheet untilthe
sail is the optimum shape."
It doesn't appear to be Australian only.

Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy practice
of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to the Builders
Labourers Federation ..

This appears to use "sheeted home" to mean nothing more than "assigned"
or "attached." The writer didn't need a figure of speech that implies
"getting it finished" or "getting it just right." But then, the sort of
writer who would use such an obscure expression is probably more
interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly.

Bob Lieblich
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2020-02-15 01:33:08 UTC
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Permalink
On 15/02/20 02:27, Katy Jennison wrote:

[quoting Bob Lieblich]
Post by Katy Jennison
Working through Google I found a definition of the phrae "sheet home" at
http://ladywashington.org/glossary.html
And here it is: "Sheet Home - 1) To haul the sheets of a sail all the
way through their guiding blocks at the yardarms of the yard below, up
to the clews, until they can go no further, so the sail may be used.
2) On the course sail, this means to haul on the leeward sheet until the
sail is the optimum shape."
It doesn't appear to be Australian only.
The impression I have is that it was originally nautical idiom -
although apparently not modern nautical idiom, to judge from comments
elsewhere in this thread - that then entered BrE in a metaphorical
sense, subsequently to survive in AusE but die out in BrE.

In AusE, it seems to be used mostly in the combination "sheet home
blame", or with some word roughly equivalent to blame. The nautical
meaning seems to have dropped out of use.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ross
2020-02-15 04:02:14 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
Googling leads to a site called Englishforums.com, where a question
about this phrase was asked in 2006, and answered by our very own late
Working through Google I found a definition of the phrae "sheet home" at
http://ladywashington.org/glossary.html
And here it is: "Sheet Home - 1) To haul the sheets of a sail all the
way through their guiding blocks at the yardarms of the yard below, up
to the clews, until they can go no further, so the sail may be used.
2) On the course sail, this means to haul on the leeward sheet untilthe
sail is the optimum shape."
It doesn't appear to be Australian only.
Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy practice
of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to the Builders
Labourers Federation ..
Actually the quote, and the two following, were presented (as I read it)
as indicating an Australian usage. The Builders Labourers Federation is
(or was) an Australian trade union.

Having spent a while searching Google Books, I have come to the
conclusion that this non-nautical use of "sheet home", meaning
to attach blame or responsibility, is a distinctive Australasian
usage. Among the earliest things I found is this vigorous passage:

They had seen the Ministry themselves conniving with Europeans
for the sale of Native land, and compelling the Natives to sell
at any price which the Government chose to give them; and then
there was the case of the sale of land at Hungahunga to Messrs.
Whitaker and Russell. They knew of all these things perfectly
well; and yet honorable gentlemen talked in a mealy-mouthed manner
about these things not being sheeted home. They were sheeted home,
and what was the good of it? The Government had all the power —
a power which could put honorable gentlemen in their seats after
a Committee of the House had declared them to be forfeited. And
yet the honorable member talked about sheeting these charges home!
If they were sheeted home, those very gentlemen would pass a vote
absolving the Government from blame. It was enough to make men sick
to listen to such statements.

New Zealand Parliamentary Debates, Vol.23 (1876), p.359.
Katy Jennison
2020-02-15 08:52:55 UTC
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Permalink
On 15/02/2020 04:02, Ross wrote:

[snip earlier discussion]
Post by Ross
Having spent a while searching Google Books, I have come to the
conclusion that this non-nautical use of "sheet home", meaning
to attach blame or responsibility, is a distinctive Australasian
They had seen the Ministry themselves conniving with Europeans
for the sale of Native land, and compelling the Natives to sell
at any price which the Government chose to give them; and then
there was the case of the sale of land at Hungahunga to Messrs.
Whitaker and Russell. They knew of all these things perfectly
well; and yet honorable gentlemen talked in a mealy-mouthed manner
about these things not being sheeted home. They were sheeted home,
and what was the good of it? The Government had all the power —
a power which could put honorable gentlemen in their seats after
a Committee of the House had declared them to be forfeited. And
yet the honorable member talked about sheeting these charges home!
If they were sheeted home, those very gentlemen would pass a vote
absolving the Government from blame. It was enough to make men sick
to listen to such statements.
New Zealand Parliamentary Debates, Vol.23 (1876), p.359.
This raises a smidgen of a whisker of a suspicion that 'charge sheet'
might have been in the writer's mind, whatever the earlier origin of the
phrase was.
--
Katy Jennison
Tony Cooper
2020-02-14 15:55:13 UTC
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Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:56:53 -0800 (PST), pensive hamster
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
I think you've missed the meaning intended. The comment is that they
are "sheeting home-responsibility", not sheeting "home". It's odd to
use "home" there, but it's saying that the responsibility should be
shouldered by the officials of the place (home) where the crisis is
based.
Post by pensive hamster
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
pensive hamster
2020-02-14 18:01:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
I think you've missed the meaning intended. The comment is that they
are "sheeting home-responsibility", not sheeting "home". It's odd to
use "home" there, but it's saying that the responsibility should be
shouldered by the officials of the place (home) where the crisis is
based.
I'd worked out the intended meaning, it was reasonably obvious,
even though the "sheeting" figure of speech was far from clear.

If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.

Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
Tony Cooper
2020-02-14 19:07:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:01:39 -0800 (PST), pensive hamster
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
I think you've missed the meaning intended. The comment is that they
are "sheeting home-responsibility", not sheeting "home". It's odd to
use "home" there, but it's saying that the responsibility should be
shouldered by the officials of the place (home) where the crisis is
based.
I'd worked out the intended meaning, it was reasonably obvious,
even though the "sheeting" figure of speech was far from clear.
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
pensive hamster
2020-02-14 19:41:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.

Now I am wondering what Chinese word might have ended up being
translated as "sheeting".
Tak To
2020-02-14 23:31:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".

Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Post by pensive hamster
Now I am wondering what Chinese word might have ended up being
translated as "sheeting".
It was part of a(n English) nautical idiom, as explained in the
article originally mentioned by Tony.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 00:24:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?

I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
Now I am wondering what Chinese word might have ended up being
translated as "sheeting".
It was part of a(n English) nautical idiom, as explained in the
article originally mentioned by Tony.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2020-02-15 07:33:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place? McGregor was expressing his opinion, not quoting.

(A translation is bad when it it unidiomatic or not
understandable in the target language.)

----- -----

[1] (Time in GMT)

TC.1: 14 Feb 2020 14:08
PH.1: 14 Feb 2020 14:56
KJ.1: 14 Feb 2020 15:27 <- "sheet home" explained
TC.2: 14 Feb 2020 15:55 <- "home-responsibility" reading
PH.2: 14 Feb 2020 16:01
TC.3: 14 Feb 2020 17:07 <- Chinese translation theory
PH.3: 14 Feb 2020 17.41
TT.1: 14 Feb 2020 23:31
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Katy Jennison
2020-02-15 09:06:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
--
Katy Jennison
Tak To
2020-02-15 14:41:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.

And many times I answer a message before reading related ones
in another branch.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-15 20:46:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval".
When I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-15 22:19:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably
it may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever
reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval".
When I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
You're not alone in this.
MacSoup, and I guess other off-line newsreaders
don't do autmatic refresh.
It gets new stuff only on order.

To me automatic refresh would be a nightmare.
I would have the feeling that keeping up with AUE would never end,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2020-02-16 01:24:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval". When
I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
You're not alone in this. MacSoup, and I guess other off-line
newsreaders don't do autmatic refresh. It gets new stuff only on
order.
To me automatic refresh would be a nightmare. I would have the
feeling that keeping up with AUE would never end,
I have my Thunderbird set up to refresh every ten minutes. It's not a
nightmare. Surprisingly few messages arrive during that ten-minute
interval, and my killfile removes a number of those. And, anyway, I
don't get to those new messages until after having finished reading a
lot of the old ones.

It's not precisely first-come-first-served, because of threading, but
it's near enough.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 16:37:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I have my Thunderbird set up to refresh every ten minutes. It's not a
nightmare. Surprisingly few messages arrive during that ten-minute
interval, and my killfile removes a number of those. And, anyway, I
don't get to those new messages until after having finished reading a
lot of the old ones.
It's not precisely first-come-first-served, because of threading, but
it's near enough.
I use Thunderbird as my newsreader, but I'm new to it. It
auto-refreshes, but I'm not sure how often.

I looked for a setting for the auto-refresh interval, but I couldn't
find it. Can you point me to it?
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2020-02-16 16:41:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
I have my Thunderbird set up to refresh every ten minutes. It's not a
nightmare. Surprisingly few messages arrive during that ten-minute
interval, and my killfile removes a number of those. And, anyway, I
don't get to those new messages until after having finished reading a
lot of the old ones.
It's not precisely first-come-first-served, because of threading, but
it's near enough.
I use Thunderbird as my newsreader, but I'm new to it. It
auto-refreshes, but I'm not sure how often.
I looked for a setting for the auto-refresh interval, but I couldn't
find it. Can you point me to it?
As is so common, moments after I asked the question, I found the answer
myself. It's in Server Settings and like yours, mine is also set for ten
minutes.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 23:35:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval".
When I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
I would not assume the "refresh-interval" means an automatic interval
set by the reader. When I open Agent, it is set to show only unread
messages. I then "refresh" by clicking "Get new headers".

If there are a lot of new messages, I may refresh after reading some
of them or refresh after reading all of them. In other words, I set
the interval.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-16 22:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval".
When I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
I would not assume the "refresh-interval" means an automatic interval
set by the reader. When I open Agent, it is set to show only unread
messages. I then "refresh" by clicking "Get new headers".
If there are a lot of new messages, I may refresh after reading some
of them or refresh after reading all of them. In other words, I set
the interval.
I've just checked.
As Ken Blake pointed out, there is a server setting for
"Check for new messages every x minutes" but I have that unticked.
I've ticked "Check for new messages at start up".
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-16 00:02:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and wondered
where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased when you picked it up
(it had shown up for me at once, but I'd expect that), but presumably it
may really have taken that long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval".
When I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
The same with Forte Agent. Downloading NG messages is initiated
manually.
Email is downloaded at an interval chosen by the user, in my case every
20 minutes. If necessary I can initiate a check for new email manually.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
musika
2020-02-16 00:45:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Tak To
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on
screen *after* what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I wonder if perhaps it really did? I admit I was puzzled, and
wondered where it had got to, and was relieved and pleased
when you picked it up (it had shown up for me at once, but I'd
expect that), but presumably it may really have taken that
long to reach Tony's server, for whatever reason.
It could also be the refresh-interval setting of the news-
reader.
I may be alone here, but I don't have any "refresh-interval". When
I open Thunderbird, I download all new message headers and work my
way through those.
The same with Forte Agent. Downloading NG messages is initiated
manually. Email is downloaded at an interval chosen by the user, in
my case every 20 minutes. If necessary I can initiate a check for
new email manually.
Thunderbird has the option to download usenet messages at a specific
interval set by the user.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Moylan
2020-02-16 01:31:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Email is downloaded at an interval chosen by the user, in my case
every 20 minutes. If necessary I can initiate a check for new email
manually.
I wonder whether this (leaving a long interval between fetching new
messages) is an age-related thing. One of the users of my mail server is
forever having load problems because his users check for new mail every
30 seconds. What makes that a bad choice is that those users also leave
the mail on the server. So, twice a minute, they each fetch a list of
over 100 messages that they've already read. It makes the log files blow
out to many megabytes per day.

It might not be the users. It might be how smartphones are configured by
default.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-18 23:32:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Email is downloaded at an interval chosen by the user, in my case
every 20 minutes. If necessary I can initiate a check for new email
manually.
I wonder whether this (leaving a long interval between fetching new
messages) is an age-related thing. One of the users of my mail server is
forever having load problems because his users check for new mail every
30 seconds. What makes that a bad choice is that those users also leave
the mail on the server. So, twice a minute, they each fetch a list of
over 100 messages that they've already read. It makes the log files blow
out to many megabytes per day.
It might not be the users. It might be how smartphones are configured by
default.
My smartphone email probably takes minutes between updates,
but it is only talking to a cloud server,
and most of the body is downloaded only on reading
(and only while reading, AFAICT).
The cloud server is virtually big and virtually everywhere.

/dps
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 14:33:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I don't know what establishes the posting time cited, but "reach your
screen" depends on when it reaches my server *and* when I refresh the
postings and open a post.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Then why wonder if he is known for accurate or inaccurate
translations?
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Why shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with doubting that a
translated phrase has been translated correctly?
Post by Tak To
McGregor was expressing his opinion, not quoting.
As was I. I expressed the opinion that it may have been a translation
error.
Post by Tak To
(A translation is bad when it it unidiomatic or not
understandable in the target language.)
The phrase, as written, was unidiomatic and not understandable to me.
That does not mean it is unidiomatic or not understandable to others.
I would add that a translation is bad when it presents a meaning that
is idiomatic and understandable but not the meaning intended by the
original author.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Loading Image...
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2020-02-15 21:18:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I don't know what establishes the posting time cited, but "reach your
screen" depends on when it reaches my server *and* when I refresh the
postings and open a post.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Then why wonder if he is known for accurate or inaccurate
translations?
Pardon my lack of imagination, but that he might have been known
for including bits of (bad) translations was the only reason I
could come up with for anyone to suspect that his sentence
included a (bad) translation.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Why shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with doubting that a
translated phrase has been translated correctly?
NB: You answered a question that was different from the one
that I asked.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
McGregor was expressing his opinion, not quoting.
As was I.
Exactly, you were not quoting, so there was no reason for me or
anyone to suspect that any part of your opinion contained any
translation.

Isn't an unfamiliar expression (in this case, "sheeting home")
far more likely to be a local slang rather than a translation
from a foreign language?
Post by Tony Cooper
I expressed the opinion that it may have been a translation
error.
----- -----
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
(A translation is bad when it it unidiomatic or not
understandable in the target language.)
The phrase, as written, was unidiomatic and not understandable to me.
That does not mean it is unidiomatic or not understandable to others.
I would add that a translation is bad when it presents a meaning that
is idiomatic and understandable but not the meaning intended by the
original author.
That too.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 23:48:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I don't know what establishes the posting time cited, but "reach your
screen" depends on when it reaches my server *and* when I refresh the
postings and open a post.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Then why wonder if he is known for accurate or inaccurate
translations?
Pardon my lack of imagination, but that he might have been known
for including bits of (bad) translations was the only reason I
could come up with for anyone to suspect that his sentence
included a (bad) translation.
It's not lack of imagination, but lack of considering the entire
phrase used. You are considering two words and the phrase that looked
off to me is three words.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.

The phrase "sheeting home responsibility" seemed to me a translation
error and the phrase should have been "sheeting local responsibility".
"Home" and "local" may be similar words in the Chinese dialect.

As it turned out, "sheeting home" is an established phrase that I was
not familiar with.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Why shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with doubting that a
translated phrase has been translated correctly?
NB: You answered a question that was different from the one
that I asked.
I fail to understand why you are implying that suspecting a
translation error is something that needs defending.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
McGregor was expressing his opinion, not quoting.
As was I.
Exactly, you were not quoting, so there was no reason for me or
anyone to suspect that any part of your opinion contained any
translation.
Isn't an unfamiliar expression (in this case, "sheeting home")
far more likely to be a local slang rather than a translation
from a foreign language?
Not in this case as explained above. The phrase was not "sheeting
home". It was "sheeting home responsibility".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tak To
2020-02-17 01:49:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I don't know what establishes the posting time cited, but "reach your
screen" depends on when it reaches my server *and* when I refresh the
postings and open a post.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Then why wonder if he is known for accurate or inaccurate
translations?
Pardon my lack of imagination, but that he might have been known
for including bits of (bad) translations was the only reason I
could come up with for anyone to suspect that his sentence
included a (bad) translation.
It's not lack of imagination, but lack of considering the entire
phrase used. You are considering two words and the phrase that looked
off to me is three words.
In the nautical setting, "to sheet" is invariably followed by
"in" or "out"[1]. Thus, when parsing the sentence, my instinct
was to treat "head" as an adverb, thus precluding it from being
treated as a noun and bound with the following word. Under-
standably, someone not as familiar with the nautical usage may
parse the sentence differently.

[1] E.g.,
http://www.photographers1.com/Sailing/NauticalTerms&Nomenclature.html#S

However, that is not the point. The point is why assume that
the phrase "head responsibility" as a translation at all
instead of, say, just another nautical term?
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.
I understand that it is obvious to you. I try to understand
why. Perhaps you have come across many wrong or not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance translations lately? Or
perhaps the presence of the word "Chinese" has a subtle
influence?

As for myself, I don't normally associate a not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance expressions with a foreign
language unless the speaker is quoting, or addressing a group
of foreigners or people familiar with that foreign language.

You seem to think that my familiarity with Chinese was a factor
in me not treating "head responsibility" as a possible bad
translation. However, it was not the case -- as far as I can
tell from introspection. The fact that McGregor was neither
quoting and nor addressing a group of Chinese had more to do
with it.
Post by Tony Cooper
The phrase "sheeting home responsibility" seemed to me a translation
error and the phrase should have been "sheeting local responsibility".
"Home" and "local" may be similar words in the Chinese dialect.
As it turned out, "sheeting home" is an established phrase that I was
not familiar with.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Why shouldn't I? Is there something wrong with doubting that a
translated phrase has been translated correctly?
NB: You answered a question that was different from the one
that I asked.
I fail to understand why you are implying that suspecting a
translation error is something that needs defending.
Of course you don't need to defend, or even explain it. I
used "why suspect that a translation was involved..." merely
to indicate that I find it odd. And I expressed that opinion
only because you asked me to explain my question "Is Richard
Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of Chinese?"
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
McGregor was expressing his opinion, not quoting.
As was I.
Exactly, you were not quoting, so there was no reason for me or
anyone to suspect that any part of your opinion contained any
translation.
Isn't an unfamiliar expression (in this case, "sheeting home")
far more likely to be a local slang rather than a translation
from a foreign language?
Not in this case as explained above. The phrase was not "sheeting
home". It was "sheeting home responsibility".
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Tony Cooper
2020-02-17 02:33:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It's not a case of "missing" a post that appeared on screen *after*
what I posted.
Yes, it is understandable that it may take more than 90
minutes for Katy's message to reach your screen[1].
I don't know what establishes the posting time cited, but "reach your
screen" depends on when it reaches my server *and* when I refresh the
postings and open a post.
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Is Richard McGregor known at all? Outside of Australia?
I have no idea. I have never heard of him before myself.
Then why wonder if he is known for accurate or inaccurate
translations?
Pardon my lack of imagination, but that he might have been known
for including bits of (bad) translations was the only reason I
could come up with for anyone to suspect that his sentence
included a (bad) translation.
It's not lack of imagination, but lack of considering the entire
phrase used. You are considering two words and the phrase that looked
off to me is three words.
In the nautical setting, "to sheet" is invariably followed by
"in" or "out"[1]. Thus, when parsing the sentence, my instinct
was to treat "head" as an adverb,
"Head"? Where did that come from"?
Post by Tak To
thus precluding it from being
treated as a noun and bound with the following word. Under-
standably, someone not as familiar with the nautical usage may
parse the sentence differently.
Jesus X. Christ! You are making my head spin.
Post by Tak To
[1] E.g.,
http://www.photographers1.com/Sailing/NauticalTerms&Nomenclature.html#S
However, that is not the point. The point is why assume that
the phrase "head responsibility" as a translation at all
instead of, say, just another nautical term?
Jesus X. Christ! You are making my head spin. I don't assume what
is purported to be nautical term is a different nautical term if the
term used doesn't make sense (to me) as written but would make sense
by changing "home" to "local".

What is this "head responsibility"?
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.
I understand that it is obvious to you. I try to understand
why.
I thought "sheeting" could be a nautical term for "covered up", so
"sheeting local responsibility" could mean "blinded to local
responsibilty".
Post by Tak To
Perhaps you have come across many wrong or not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance translations lately? Or
perhaps the presence of the word "Chinese" has a subtle
influence?
For fuck's sake. You have become PTD with these "internalized"
prejudice allegations. It has nothing to do with the word "Chinese"
or that the reference was to something in China.
Post by Tak To
As for myself, I don't normally associate a not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance expressions with a foreign
language unless the speaker is quoting, or addressing a group
of foreigners or people familiar with that foreign language.
You seem to think that my familiarity with Chinese was a factor
in me not treating "head responsibility" as a possible bad
translation.
Where do you get that? I haven't given any thought or comment to
*your* view of this.

Again, this "head responsibility". Where is that from? The phrase I
read was "sheeting home responsibility" and I thought it might have be
a mistranslation for "sheeting local responsibility".

"Head", as a reference to a toilet, is a nautical term but I don't
understand why you have repeatedly used "head" in this exchange.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-18 23:46:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Pardon my lack of imagination, but that he might have been known
for including bits of (bad) translations was the only reason I
could come up with for anyone to suspect that his sentence
included a (bad) translation.
It's not lack of imagination, but lack of considering the entire
phrase used. You are considering two words and the phrase that looked
off to me is three words.
In the nautical setting, "to sheet" is invariably followed by
"in" or "out"[1]. Thus, when parsing the sentence, my instinct
was to treat "head" as an adverb,
"Head"? Where did that come from"?
See below.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
thus precluding it from being
treated as a noun and bound with the following word. Under-
standably, someone not as familiar with the nautical usage may
parse the sentence differently.
Jesus X. Christ! You are making my head spin.
You're nearer the equator than Tak is, so you have to move faster.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
[1] E.g.,
http://www.photographers1.com/Sailing/NauticalTerms&Nomenclature.html#S
However, that is not the point. The point is why assume that
the phrase "head responsibility" as a translation at all
instead of, say, just another nautical term?
Jesus X. Christ! You are making my head spin. I don't assume what
is purported to be nautical term is a different nautical term if the
term used doesn't make sense (to me) as written but would make sense
by changing "home" to "local".
What is this "head responsibility"?
I think it's a thinko (or a very big typo),
but I'm putting words in Tak's mouth.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.
I understand that it is obvious to you. I try to understand
why.
I thought "sheeting" could be a nautical term for "covered up", so
"sheeting local responsibility" could mean "blinded to local
responsibilty".
Post by Tak To
Perhaps you have come across many wrong or not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance translations lately? Or
perhaps the presence of the word "Chinese" has a subtle
influence?
For fuck's sake. You have become PTD with these "internalized"
prejudice allegations. It has nothing to do with the word "Chinese"
or that the reference was to something in China.
That the original quoted material was about China
may have signalled you to expect a translation
of a Chinese phrase.
If it was about French or Russian,
it might have had the same signalling property,
so you don't have to be racially profiling anyone to be influenced by it.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
As for myself, I don't normally associate a not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance expressions with a foreign
language unless the speaker is quoting, or addressing a group
of foreigners or people familiar with that foreign language.
You seem to think that my familiarity with Chinese was a factor
in me not treating "head responsibility" as a possible bad
translation.
Where do you get that? I haven't given any thought or comment to
*your* view of this.
What, you don't try to figure out where Tak's replies come from,
and what he thinks they mean?
Post by Tony Cooper
Again, this "head responsibility". Where is that from? The phrase I
read was "sheeting home responsibility" and I thought it might have be
a mistranslation for "sheeting local responsibility".
"Head", as a reference to a toilet, is a nautical term but I don't
understand why you have repeatedly used "head" in this exchange.
Typo, thinko, just like in your thread about someone else's error
("An Argument", IIRC).

/dps
Madhu
2020-02-19 10:14:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[for a completely different take]
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
In the nautical setting, "to sheet" is invariably followed by "in"
or "out"[1]. Thus, when parsing the sentence, my instinct was to
treat "head" as an adverb,
"Head"? Where did that come from"?
See below.
I think it's a thinko (or a very big typo),
that seems related to some sex-jokes that I never understood I don't
expect aue to elucidate the mechanics for me, though i imagine the
obvious - along the lines of a golf ball through a garden hose

%
The quality of a blow-job is determined by the
length of sheet you have to pull out of your ass.

"yo mamma gives such good blow jobs, after shes done i have to pull
sheets outta my ass."
(www.yelp.com/topic/los-angeles-anybody-have-good-yo-mama-jokes)

and some other meme:

""If you have to pull the bed sheets out of your ass crack then she
surely knows what the heck she's doing."
cdn-webimages.wimages.net/0527dc7a18387bb6d79e5eff825f03458bd49f-v5-wm.jpg?v=3
Tony Cooper
2020-02-19 14:01:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.
I understand that it is obvious to you. I try to understand
why.
I thought "sheeting" could be a nautical term for "covered up", so
"sheeting local responsibility" could mean "blinded to local
responsibilty".
Post by Tak To
Perhaps you have come across many wrong or not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance translations lately? Or
perhaps the presence of the word "Chinese" has a subtle
influence?
For fuck's sake. You have become PTD with these "internalized"
prejudice allegations. It has nothing to do with the word "Chinese"
or that the reference was to something in China.
That the original quoted material was about China
may have signalled you to expect a translation
of a Chinese phrase.
If it was about French or Russian,
it might have had the same signalling property,
so you don't have to be racially profiling anyone to be influenced by it.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
As for myself, I don't normally associate a not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance expressions with a foreign
language unless the speaker is quoting, or addressing a group
of foreigners or people familiar with that foreign language.
You seem to think that my familiarity with Chinese was a factor
in me not treating "head responsibility" as a possible bad
translation.
Where do you get that? I haven't given any thought or comment to
*your* view of this.
What, you don't try to figure out where Tak's replies come from,
and what he thinks they mean?
What I don't do is try to figure out if Tak's replies are based on the
fact that he is Chinese any more than I think the a mistranslation is
more likely because Chinese is the original language. That seems to
be what Tak is suggesting that I do.

Tak's comments are close to "playing the race card" and rather
offensive. It implies that my misunderstanding was based on prejudice
against anything from a Chinese source.

I have the ability to misunderstand anything said/written by anyone of
any nationality on any subject without taking into account the
national origin of the source or the output.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-19 23:21:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
Post by Tony Cooper
I'm not at all sure how I would be able to discern a "bad" translation
of Chinese from a "good" translation. That would require knowing what
the Chinese writer intended in meaning.
But why suspect that a translation was involved in the first
place?
Because there was, in my view, a very obvious reason to suspect an
error in translation.
I understand that it is obvious to you. I try to understand
why.
I thought "sheeting" could be a nautical term for "covered up", so
"sheeting local responsibility" could mean "blinded to local
responsibilty".
Post by Tak To
Perhaps you have come across many wrong or not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance translations lately? Or
perhaps the presence of the word "Chinese" has a subtle
influence?
For fuck's sake. You have become PTD with these "internalized"
prejudice allegations. It has nothing to do with the word "Chinese"
or that the reference was to something in China.
That the original quoted material was about China
may have signalled you to expect a translation
of a Chinese phrase.
If it was about French or Russian,
it might have had the same signalling property,
so you don't have to be racially profiling anyone to be influenced by it.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Tak To
As for myself, I don't normally associate a not-quite-
comprehensible-at-first-glance expressions with a foreign
language unless the speaker is quoting, or addressing a group
of foreigners or people familiar with that foreign language.
You seem to think that my familiarity with Chinese was a factor
in me not treating "head responsibility" as a possible bad
translation.
Where do you get that? I haven't given any thought or comment to
*your* view of this.
What, you don't try to figure out where Tak's replies come from,
and what he thinks they mean?
What I don't do is try to figure out if Tak's replies are based on the
fact that he is Chinese any more than I think the a mistranslation is
more likely because Chinese is the original language. That seems to
be what Tak is suggesting that I do.
Tak's comments are close to "playing the race card" and rather
offensive. It implies that my misunderstanding was based on prejudice
against anything from a Chinese source.
I don't think so.
Post by Tony Cooper
I have the ability to misunderstand anything said/written by anyone of
any nationality on any subject without taking into account the
national origin of the source or the output.
You were the one who introduced the idea of translation from the Chinese.

/dps
pensive hamster
2020-02-15 00:33:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It wasn't Katy's explanation, she seemed to be quoting Bob Lieblich's
explanation. And Bob Lieblich's explanation doesn't seem to make
much sense. For one thing, he seems to mistake the clew outhaul
for the sheet, they are not the same thing.

And he doesn't explain how "sheeted home" comes to mean nothing
more than "assigned" or "attached." (The clew outhaul attaches the
bottom corner of the sail to the yardarm below, in the case of a square
rigger, but the clew outhaul is not a sheet, they have different functions.)

And he concludes by saying "But then, the sort of writer who would use
such an obscure expression [as "sheeted home", presumably] is probably
more interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly."

To me, it seems probably an illustration of how landlubbers may have
difficulty in using nautical metaphors correctly.
Post by Tak To
Is Richard Mcgregor known for quoting bad translations of
Chinese?
Post by pensive hamster
Now I am wondering what Chinese word might have ended up being
translated as "sheeting".
It was part of a(n English) nautical idiom, as explained in the
article originally mentioned by Tony.
Tak To
2020-02-15 05:10:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It wasn't Katy's explanation, she seemed to be quoting Bob Lieblich's
explanation.
And Bob Lieblich was quoting from the ladywashington.org web page,
which I cannot access.
Post by pensive hamster
And Bob Lieblich's explanation doesn't seem to make
much sense. For one thing, he seems to mistake the clew outhaul
for the sheet, they are not the same thing.
[...]
(The clew outhaul attaches the
bottom corner of the sail to the yardarm below, in the case of
a square rigger, but the clew outhaul is not a sheet, they have
different functions.)
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.

See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
Post by pensive hamster
And he doesn't explain how "sheeted home" comes to mean nothing
more than "assigned" or "attached."
More on that. The important thing here is that there is (was)
indeed a nautical term "sheet home".
Post by pensive hamster
And he concludes by saying "But then, the sort of writer who would use
such an obscure expression [as "sheeted home", presumably] is probably
more interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly."
I don't know whether the example was found elsewhere by
Bob Lieblich or was included in the ladywashington.org and
what the context was.

] Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy
] practice of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to
] the Builders Labourers Federation ..

However, from just this sentence and nothing else, I would
disagree with BL that the meaning is "nothing more than
'assigned' or 'attached'". I think the meaning is closer
to "[was to be] reigned in by" or "properly handled by".
And it would be closer to McGregor's usage as well.
Post by pensive hamster
To me, it seems probably an illustration of how landlubbers may have
difficulty in using nautical metaphors correctly.
Generally true, but not necessarily in this case.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Ross
2020-02-15 05:54:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It wasn't Katy's explanation, she seemed to be quoting Bob Lieblich's
explanation.
And Bob Lieblich was quoting from the ladywashington.org web page,
which I cannot access.
Post by pensive hamster
And Bob Lieblich's explanation doesn't seem to make
much sense. For one thing, he seems to mistake the clew outhaul
for the sheet, they are not the same thing.
[...]
(The clew outhaul attaches the
bottom corner of the sail to the yardarm below, in the case of
a square rigger, but the clew outhaul is not a sheet, they have
different functions.)
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
Post by pensive hamster
And he doesn't explain how "sheeted home" comes to mean nothing
more than "assigned" or "attached."
More on that. The important thing here is that there is (was)
indeed a nautical term "sheet home".
Post by pensive hamster
And he concludes by saying "But then, the sort of writer who would use
such an obscure expression [as "sheeted home", presumably] is probably
more interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly."
I don't know whether the example was found elsewhere by
Bob Lieblich or was included in the ladywashington.org and
what the context was.
] Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy
] practice of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to
] the Builders Labourers Federation ..
However, from just this sentence and nothing else, I would
disagree with BL that the meaning is "nothing more than
'assigned' or 'attached'". I think the meaning is closer
to "[was to be] reigned in by" or "properly handled by".
And it would be closer to McGregor's usage as well.
In this example, I think it gives almost the opposite of the
real meaning. From numerous examples in Google Books, the
meaning of "sheet X home to Y" is "blame Y/hold Y responsible
for X".

For some context for the quote, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builders_Labourers_Federation
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
To me, it seems probably an illustration of how landlubbers may have
difficulty in using nautical metaphors correctly.
Generally true, but not necessarily in this case.
Some sailor must surely have been responsible for applying this
technical term in a shoregoing situation. In fact the 1867 OED
example suggests it was already being extended in sailors' talk:

1867 W. H. Smyth & E. Belcher Sailor's Word-bk. Sheet home!..
Also, when driving anything home, as a blow, &c.

Another nautical-setting example but with the phrase being used beyond
its narrow technical sense:

Now appears upon the quarter-deck a young man with high-heeled boots,
tight trowsers with quarter-gallery pockets, sheeted home at the ankles,
and stove-pipe hat.

(Century Magazine, vol.28 (1884), p.196)

The common sense is of bringing/fastening/binding things together
tightly. Thence to fastening guilt or responsibility onto someone.
Tak To
2020-02-15 14:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It wasn't Katy's explanation, she seemed to be quoting Bob Lieblich's
explanation.
And Bob Lieblich was quoting from the ladywashington.org web page,
which I cannot access.
Post by pensive hamster
And Bob Lieblich's explanation doesn't seem to make
much sense. For one thing, he seems to mistake the clew outhaul
for the sheet, they are not the same thing.
[...]
(The clew outhaul attaches the
bottom corner of the sail to the yardarm below, in the case of
a square rigger, but the clew outhaul is not a sheet, they have
different functions.)
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
Post by pensive hamster
And he doesn't explain how "sheeted home" comes to mean nothing
more than "assigned" or "attached."
More on that. The important thing here is that there is (was)
indeed a nautical term "sheet home".
Post by pensive hamster
And he concludes by saying "But then, the sort of writer who would use
such an obscure expression [as "sheeted home", presumably] is probably
more interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly."
I don't know whether the example was found elsewhere by
Bob Lieblich or was included in the ladywashington.org and
what the context was.
] Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy
] practice of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to
] the Builders Labourers Federation ..
However, from just this sentence and nothing else, I would
disagree with BL that the meaning is "nothing more than
'assigned' or 'attached'". I think the meaning is closer
to "[was to be] reigned in by" or "properly handled by".
And it would be closer to McGregor's usage as well.
In this example, I think it gives almost the opposite of the
real meaning. From numerous examples in Google Books, the
meaning of "sheet X home to Y" is "blame Y/hold Y responsible
for X".
Thanks for the information, but I don't see where "opposite"
comes from. The nautical origin is to haul the sheets to
their proper operating position, hence the association with
the responsibilities of (possibly all of) (a) past misdeeds,
(b) current remedial/punitive actions, or (c) future
precautions.
Post by Ross
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builders_Labourers_Federation
----- -----
Post by Ross
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
To me, it seems probably an illustration of how landlubbers may have
difficulty in using nautical metaphors correctly.
Generally true, but not necessarily in this case.
Note "difficulty ... correctly" -- i.e., I don't see the
the metaphor in the BLF case as being "incorrect".
Post by Ross
Some sailor must surely have been responsible for applying this
technical term in a shoregoing situation. In fact the 1867 OED
1867 W. H. Smyth & E. Belcher Sailor's Word-bk. Sheet home!..
Also, when driving anything home, as a blow, &c.
Another nautical-setting example but with the phrase being used beyond
Now appears upon the quarter-deck a young man with high-heeled boots,
tight trowsers with quarter-gallery pockets, sheeted home at the ankles,
and stove-pipe hat.
(Century Magazine, vol.28 (1884), p.196)
The common sense is of bringing/fastening/binding things together
tightly. Thence to fastening guilt or responsibility onto someone.
All seem reasonable ("correct") extensions to me.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Katy Jennison
2020-02-15 08:59:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/02/2020 05:10, Tak To wrote:

[snip, rather a lot]
Post by Tak To
I don't know whether the example was found elsewhere by
Bob Lieblich or was included in the ladywashington.org and
what the context was.
] Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy
] practice of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to
] the Builders Labourers Federation ..
However, from just this sentence and nothing else, I would
disagree with BL that the meaning is "nothing more than
'assigned' or 'attached'".
I think the meaning is closer
to "[was to be] reigned in by"
Oy!!

That aside, my take is that the meaning is closer to 'held responsible
for', or 'bring the responsibility back to where it properly belongs'.
--
Katy Jennison
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 17:35:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
No, the sheet doesn't pull the sail to the sides and down. It does
neither. It's purpose is to pull the corner of the sail aft. so the sail
is set and held at an appropriate angle to the wind.

For example, if a vessel, whether fore-and aft rigged or square-rigged
is sailing at an angle to the wind, its sails need to be trimmed
(sheeted), so that its aftermost corner on the side away from the wind
is pulled astern and held in that position.

It's hard to do pictures with text, but I'll try.


/\ /
/ \ / Wind direction
| | <
| / |
|/ |
| |
------

The picture is meant to be of a sloop sailing roughly at a 45 degree
angle to the wind. The wind is coming from the right side (starboard) of
the sloop, so the sloop is said to be sailing on a starboard tack.

Note the diagonal line in the middle of the sloop. That's meant to be
its mainsail. It's held in that position by the main sheet. The sheep
pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.

If the sheet weren't used to do that, the sail would flutter around
uselessly (luffing) and the sloop would make no progress. The sheet is
pulled aft until the luffing stops, the surface of the sail becomes
taut, and the sloop goes forward.

Much the same is true of the sheet on a sail on a square-rigger. I used
a fore-and-aft rigged boat as an example because it was easier to draw a
picture.

By the way, on a fore-and-aft rigged boat, any sail with a boom has a
single sheet, which can can be used pull the boom and sail astern to the
appropriate side. A sail without a boom (usually a jib) has two sheets,
both attached to the aftermost corner of the sail; only one of the two
sheets is used at a time, depending on whether the boat is on a
starboard tack or a port tack.

The square sails on a square-rigger also have two sheets, but they are
different from jibs. The two sheets are attached to the two bottom
corners of the square sail. Only one at a time is used, again depending
on whether the boat is on a starboard tack or a port tack.

If this confuses anybody, my apologies. It's hard to explain this
without being about to draw or show you real pictures.

By the way, I used to own a sloop.



Ken
Katy Jennison
2020-02-15 18:44:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/02/2020 17:35, Ken Blake wrote:

(Snip the first half of a very interesting and informative post)
Post by Ken Blake
The sheep
pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Hurrah! A sheep at last! There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.

There's a Tenniel illustration of Alice and a sheep in a boat, but
unfortunately it's not a boat with a sail, so it's not worth posting a link.

(Snip some more very interesting and germane information.)
--
Katy Jennison
Ken Blake
2020-02-15 18:56:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
(Snip the first half of a very interesting and informative post)
Post by Ken Blake
The sheep
pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Hurrah! A sheep at last! There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
Oops! I'm terrible prone to making typos.
Post by Katy Jennison
There's a Tenniel illustration of Alice and a sheep in a boat, but
unfortunately it's not a boat with a sail, so it's not worth posting a link.
(Snip some more very interesting and germane information.)
Thanks for the kind words.
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-15 19:20:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
(Snip the first half of a  very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah!  A sheep at last!  There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
...

I saw some sheep a few weeks ago.

https://imgur.com/a/RFXHgq3

I was birdwatching, but contrary to some smart-aleck friends of mine,
that doesn't make a sheep a bird, or even a creäture of the aïr.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2020-02-15 19:41:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:20:40 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
(Snip the first half of a  very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah!  A sheep at last!  There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
...
I saw some sheep a few weeks ago.
https://imgur.com/a/RFXHgq3
I was birdwatching, but contrary to some smart-aleck friends of mine,
that doesn't make a sheep a bird, or even a creäture of the aïr.
That's a honking good capture of Bighorns.

Carson National Forest?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-16 04:01:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:20:40 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
(Snip the first half of a  very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah!  A sheep at last!  There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
...
I saw some sheep a few weeks ago.
https://imgur.com/a/RFXHgq3
I was birdwatching, but contrary to some smart-aleck friends of mine,
that doesn't make a sheep a bird, or even a creäture of the aïr.
That's a honking good capture of Bighorns.
Thanks! Just for that you get a sharper but less cute one.

https://imgur.com/a/ulU69OE
Post by Tony Cooper
Carson National Forest?
Close. Rio Grande del Norte National Monument.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2020-02-16 05:14:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:01:06 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:20:40 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
(Snip the first half of a  very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah!  A sheep at last!  There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
...
I saw some sheep a few weeks ago.
https://imgur.com/a/RFXHgq3
I was birdwatching, but contrary to some smart-aleck friends of mine,
that doesn't make a sheep a bird, or even a creäture of the aïr.
That's a honking good capture of Bighorns.
Thanks! Just for that you get a sharper but less cute one.
In photography circles when you photograph an animal the critical
point for deciding if the focus is right is the eye. If the eye is in
focus and sharp, all's right. This one nails it.
Post by Jerry Friedman
https://imgur.com/a/ulU69OE
Post by Tony Cooper
Carson National Forest?
Close. Rio Grande del Norte National Monument.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-17 00:10:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 21:01:06 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 15 Feb 2020 12:20:40 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
(Snip the first half of a  very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah!  A sheep at last!  There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
...
I saw some sheep a few weeks ago.
https://imgur.com/a/RFXHgq3
I was birdwatching, but contrary to some smart-aleck friends of mine,
that doesn't make a sheep a bird, or even a creäture of the aïr.
That's a honking good capture of Bighorns.
Thanks! Just for that you get a sharper but less cute one.
In photography circles when you photograph an animal the critical
point for deciding if the focus is right is the eye. If the eye is in
focus and sharp, all's right. This one nails it.
...
Thanks again. Of course the camera makes those decisions.
--
Jerry Friedman
charles
2020-02-15 19:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
(Snip the first half of a very interesting and informative post)
The sheep pulls the end of the boom, and the mainsail attached to it
aft, and is normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that
position.
Hurrah! A sheep at last! There has been been a dearth of these
particular on-topic animals recently, so I'm very glad to see this one.
There's a Tenniel illustration of Alice and a sheep in a boat, but
unfortunately it's not a boat with a sail, so it's not worth posting a link.
(Snip some more very interesting and germane information.)
Yes, it's just a rowing boat - I had to look it up.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Tak To
2020-02-16 04:32:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tak To
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
Note: a square rigs is different from a fore-and-aft rig.
Post by Ken Blake
No, the sheet doesn't pull the sail to the sides and down. It does
neither. It's purpose is to pull the corner of the sail aft. so the sail
is set and held at an appropriate angle to the wind.
From the diagram in the above article, it is clear that in a
square rig, the two sheets are for pulling the two clews
towards the tips of the yard (spar) that is below the sail.

There is definitely a downward component to both of the
forces. As to the respective components in the horizontal
plane, they are neither perfectly aligned with the center
line of the boat nor perfectly perpendicular to it. So
one can say that the aft-sheet is pulling the sail aft-
ward and the fore-sheet is pulling it forward (with respect
to the boat), or one can that both sheets are pulling the
sail outward or sideways (with respect to the yard).

FWIW, the above article opts for the "out" terminology.
] D: sheets, haul clews out to yard below;
Post by Ken Blake
For example, if a vessel, whether fore-and aft rigged or square-rigged
is sailing at an angle to the wind, its sails need to be trimmed
(sheeted), so that its aftermost corner on the side away from the wind
is pulled astern and held in that position.
It's hard to do pictures with text, but I'll try.
/\ /
/ \ / Wind direction
| | <
| / |
|/ |
| |
------
Note: not a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
The picture is meant to be of a sloop sailing roughly at a 45 degree
angle to the wind. The wind is coming from the right side (starboard) of
the sloop, so the sloop is said to be sailing on a starboard tack.
Note the diagonal line in the middle of the sloop. That's meant to be
its mainsail. It's held in that position by the main sheet. The sheep
pulls the end of the boom,
There is no boom in a square rig and the orientation of the
yards are controlled by braces (see diagram in the article)
rather than the sheets.
Post by Ken Blake
and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Yes, by the out-haul, but there is no out-haul in a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
If the sheet weren't used to do that, the sail would flutter around
uselessly (luffing) and the sloop would make no progress. The sheet is
pulled aft until the luffing stops, the surface of the sail becomes
taut, and the sloop goes forward.
Much the same is true of the sheet on a sail on a square-rigger. I used
a fore-and-aft rigged boat as an example because it was easier to draw a
picture.
Alas, they are different.
Post by Ken Blake
By the way, on a fore-and-aft rigged boat, any sail with a boom has a
single sheet, which can can be used pull the boom and sail astern to the
appropriate side. A sail without a boom (usually a jib) has two sheets,
both attached to the aftermost corner of the sail; only one of the two
sheets is used at a time, depending on whether the boat is on a
starboard tack or a port tack.
The square sails on a square-rigger also have two sheets, but they are
different from jibs. The two sheets are attached to the two bottom
corners of the square sail. Only one at a time is used, again depending
on whether the boat is on a starboard tack or a port tack.
See above.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-18 23:28:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tak To
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling
Thanks for this link.
Post by Tak To
Note: a square rigs is different from a fore-and-aft rig.
an itchy left finger (ring or pinkie)?
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
No, the sheet doesn't pull the sail to the sides and down. It does
neither. It's purpose is to pull the corner of the sail aft. so the sail
is set and held at an appropriate angle to the wind.
From the diagram in the above article, it is clear that in a
square rig, the two sheets are for pulling the two clews
towards the tips of the yard (spar) that is below the sail.
There is definitely a downward component to both of the
forces. As to the respective components in the horizontal
plane, they are neither perfectly aligned with the center
line of the boat nor perfectly perpendicular to it. So
one can say that the aft-sheet is pulling the sail aft-
ward and the fore-sheet is pulling it forward (with respect
to the boat), or one can that both sheets are pulling the
sail outward or sideways (with respect to the yard).
FWIW, the above article opts for the "out" terminology.
] D: sheets, haul clews out to yard below;
Post by Ken Blake
For example, if a vessel, whether fore-and aft rigged or square-rigged
is sailing at an angle to the wind, its sails need to be trimmed
(sheeted), so that its aftermost corner on the side away from the wind
is pulled astern and held in that position.
It's hard to do pictures with text, but I'll try.
/\ /
/ \ / Wind direction
| | <
| / |
|/ |
| |
------
Note: not a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
The picture is meant to be of a sloop sailing roughly at a 45 degree
angle to the wind. The wind is coming from the right side (starboard) of
the sloop, so the sloop is said to be sailing on a starboard tack.
Note the diagonal line in the middle of the sloop. That's meant to be
its mainsail. It's held in that position by the main sheet. The sheep
pulls the end of the boom,
There is no boom in a square rig and the orientation of the
yards are controlled by braces (see diagram in the article)
rather than the sheets.
Post by Ken Blake
and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Yes, by the out-haul, but there is no out-haul in a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
If the sheet weren't used to do that, the sail would flutter around
uselessly (luffing) and the sloop would make no progress. The sheet is
pulled aft until the luffing stops, the surface of the sail becomes
taut, and the sloop goes forward.
Much the same is true of the sheet on a sail on a square-rigger. I used
a fore-and-aft rigged boat as an example because it was easier to draw a
picture.
Alas, they are different.
Post by Ken Blake
By the way, on a fore-and-aft rigged boat, any sail with a boom has a
single sheet, which can can be used pull the boom and sail astern to the
appropriate side. A sail without a boom (usually a jib) has two sheets,
both attached to the aftermost corner of the sail; only one of the two
sheets is used at a time, depending on whether the boat is on a
starboard tack or a port tack.
The square sails on a square-rigger also have two sheets, but they are
different from jibs. The two sheets are attached to the two bottom
corners of the square sail. Only one at a time is used, again depending
on whether the boat is on a starboard tack or a port tack.
See above.
Alas, my Royce is in storage, but I see that in 1997 the square-rig information
got split out (and expanded?)


I do know that square riggers don't generally tack,
they wear about, because they really hate being stuck in irons.

Whereas fore-and-afters may tack through 270 degrees
to avoid a dangerous jibe (that free end of the boom travels a long way,
building up momentum just when you want it to ease to a stop).

Then there are spinnaker poles.

/dps
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-18 23:35:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tak To
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling
Thanks for this link.
Post by Tak To
Note: a square rigs is different from a fore-and-aft rig.
an itchy left finger (ring or pinkie)?
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
No, the sheet doesn't pull the sail to the sides and down. It does
neither. It's purpose is to pull the corner of the sail aft. so the sail
is set and held at an appropriate angle to the wind.
From the diagram in the above article, it is clear that in a
square rig, the two sheets are for pulling the two clews
towards the tips of the yard (spar) that is below the sail.
There is definitely a downward component to both of the
forces. As to the respective components in the horizontal
plane, they are neither perfectly aligned with the center
line of the boat nor perfectly perpendicular to it. So
one can say that the aft-sheet is pulling the sail aft-
ward and the fore-sheet is pulling it forward (with respect
to the boat), or one can that both sheets are pulling the
sail outward or sideways (with respect to the yard).
FWIW, the above article opts for the "out" terminology.
] D: sheets, haul clews out to yard below;
Post by Ken Blake
For example, if a vessel, whether fore-and aft rigged or square-rigged
is sailing at an angle to the wind, its sails need to be trimmed
(sheeted), so that its aftermost corner on the side away from the wind
is pulled astern and held in that position.
It's hard to do pictures with text, but I'll try.
/\ /
/ \ / Wind direction
| | <
| / |
|/ |
| |
------
Note: not a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
The picture is meant to be of a sloop sailing roughly at a 45 degree
angle to the wind. The wind is coming from the right side (starboard) of
the sloop, so the sloop is said to be sailing on a starboard tack.
Note the diagonal line in the middle of the sloop. That's meant to be
its mainsail. It's held in that position by the main sheet. The sheep
pulls the end of the boom,
There is no boom in a square rig and the orientation of the
yards are controlled by braces (see diagram in the article)
rather than the sheets.
Post by Ken Blake
and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Yes, by the out-haul, but there is no out-haul in a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
If the sheet weren't used to do that, the sail would flutter around
uselessly (luffing) and the sloop would make no progress. The sheet is
pulled aft until the luffing stops, the surface of the sail becomes
taut, and the sloop goes forward.
Much the same is true of the sheet on a sail on a square-rigger. I used
a fore-and-aft rigged boat as an example because it was easier to draw a
picture.
Alas, they are different.
Post by Ken Blake
By the way, on a fore-and-aft rigged boat, any sail with a boom has a
single sheet, which can can be used pull the boom and sail astern to the
appropriate side. A sail without a boom (usually a jib) has two sheets,
both attached to the aftermost corner of the sail; only one of the two
sheets is used at a time, depending on whether the boat is on a
starboard tack or a port tack.
The square sails on a square-rigger also have two sheets, but they are
different from jibs. The two sheets are attached to the two bottom
corners of the square sail. Only one at a time is used, again depending
on whether the boat is on a starboard tack or a port tack.
See above.
Alas, my Royce is in storage, but I see that in 1997 the square-rig information
got split out (and expanded?)
<URL:https://www.amazon.com/Royces-Sailing-Illustrated-Vol-Tall/dp/0911284087/>
Post by s***@gmail.com
I do know that square riggers don't generally tack,
they wear about, because they really hate being stuck in irons.
Whereas fore-and-afters may tack through 270 degrees
to avoid a dangerous jibe (that free end of the boom travels a long way,
building up momentum just when you want it to ease to a stop).
Then there are spinnaker poles.
/dps
Ken Blake
2020-02-18 23:51:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tak To
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling
Thanks for this link.
Post by Tak To
Note: a square rigs is different from a fore-and-aft rig.
an itchy left finger (ring or pinkie)?
Post by Tak To
Post by Ken Blake
No, the sheet doesn't pull the sail to the sides and down. It does
neither. It's purpose is to pull the corner of the sail aft. so the sail
is set and held at an appropriate angle to the wind.
From the diagram in the above article, it is clear that in a
square rig, the two sheets are for pulling the two clews
towards the tips of the yard (spar) that is below the sail.
There is definitely a downward component to both of the
forces. As to the respective components in the horizontal
plane, they are neither perfectly aligned with the center
line of the boat nor perfectly perpendicular to it. So
one can say that the aft-sheet is pulling the sail aft-
ward and the fore-sheet is pulling it forward (with respect
to the boat), or one can that both sheets are pulling the
sail outward or sideways (with respect to the yard).
FWIW, the above article opts for the "out" terminology.
] D: sheets, haul clews out to yard below;
Post by Ken Blake
For example, if a vessel, whether fore-and aft rigged or square-rigged
is sailing at an angle to the wind, its sails need to be trimmed
(sheeted), so that its aftermost corner on the side away from the wind
is pulled astern and held in that position.
It's hard to do pictures with text, but I'll try.
/\ /
/ \ / Wind direction
| | <
| / |
|/ |
| |
------
Note: not a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
The picture is meant to be of a sloop sailing roughly at a 45 degree
angle to the wind. The wind is coming from the right side (starboard) of
the sloop, so the sloop is said to be sailing on a starboard tack.
Note the diagonal line in the middle of the sloop. That's meant to be
its mainsail. It's held in that position by the main sheet. The sheep
pulls the end of the boom,
There is no boom in a square rig and the orientation of the
yards are controlled by braces (see diagram in the article)
rather than the sheets.
Post by Ken Blake
and the mainsail attached to it aft, and is
normally cleated down to hold the boom and sail in that position.
Yes, by the out-haul, but there is no out-haul in a square rig.
Post by Ken Blake
If the sheet weren't used to do that, the sail would flutter around
uselessly (luffing) and the sloop would make no progress. The sheet is
pulled aft until the luffing stops, the surface of the sail becomes
taut, and the sloop goes forward.
Much the same is true of the sheet on a sail on a square-rigger. I used
a fore-and-aft rigged boat as an example because it was easier to draw a
picture.
Alas, they are different.
Post by Ken Blake
By the way, on a fore-and-aft rigged boat, any sail with a boom has a
single sheet, which can can be used pull the boom and sail astern to the
appropriate side. A sail without a boom (usually a jib) has two sheets,
both attached to the aftermost corner of the sail; only one of the two
sheets is used at a time, depending on whether the boat is on a
starboard tack or a port tack.
The square sails on a square-rigger also have two sheets, but they are
different from jibs. The two sheets are attached to the two bottom
corners of the square sail. Only one at a time is used, again depending
on whether the boat is on a starboard tack or a port tack.
See above.
Alas, my Royce is in storage, but I see that in 1997 the square-rig information
got split out (and expanded?)
I do know that square riggers don't generally tack,
they wear about, because they really hate being stuck in irons.
Yes. Strange as it seems, it's easier for them to turn through 270
degrees than 90.
Post by s***@gmail.com
Whereas fore-and-afters may tack through 270 degrees
to avoid a dangerous jibe (that free end of the boom travels a long way,
building up momentum just when you want it to ease to a stop).
Then there are spinnaker poles.
/dps
--
Ken
pensive hamster
2020-02-22 16:19:43 UTC
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Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
[...]
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
If they had written about beginning the process of "accepting" or
"shouldering" responsibility, that would have been better. Idioms
and metaphors are supposed to clarify meaning, rather than
muddle it.
Though it think "home" as in "home-responsibility" is a bit superfluous,
if you are talking about a person or organisation shouldering
responsibility.
In AmE, I would have used "local responsibility", but this was
evidently translated from Chinese to English so the word actually used
may have meant "home".
Ah yes, that could make sense, that it was a result of translating from
Chinese.
I am amazed that somehow both you and Tony missed Katy's
perfect explanation of "sheeting home" while continuing to
speculate on a Chinese origin of the non-phrase "home
responsibility".
It wasn't Katy's explanation, she seemed to be quoting Bob Lieblich's
explanation.
And Bob Lieblich was quoting from the ladywashington.org web page,
which I cannot access.
Post by pensive hamster
And Bob Lieblich's explanation doesn't seem to make
much sense. For one thing, he seems to mistake the clew outhaul
for the sheet, they are not the same thing.
[...]
(The clew outhaul attaches the
bottom corner of the sail to the yardarm below, in the case of
a square rigger, but the clew outhaul is not a sheet, they have
different functions.)
Well, it seems that for a square rig, the lines that pull a sail
to the sides *and* down are indeed called the sheets. In other
words, there are just two out-and-down hauls (sheets) and not
two out hauls plus a number of down hauls and sheets.
See
http://www.oceannavigator.com/May-June-2014/Square-sail-handling/
Thanks for that link. The diagram does indeed show that

B: braces, trim the yard
D: sheets, haul clews out to yard below;

So on a square-rigger, the braces perform the function of what are
termed sheets in more modern usage - i.e. they control the angle
of the sail (and the yards), so that the sail is trimmed at an
appropriate angle to the wind.

The final sentence of the following Wikipedia paragraph perhaps
explains how the more modern usage of "sheets" came about -
"... The lowest sails, the courses, are trimmed using the sheets as
these sails are loose footed and are secured to yards only at the
head."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheet_(sailing)#Square_rig

"Square-rigged vessels are much less common, and are usually
large ships. Nevertheless, they too have sheets on the movable
corners of their square sails. Unlike fore-and-aft sheets, though,
square-rig sheets do not control the angle of the sails (which is
performed using braces); instead, they are used to haul the corners
of the sails from their stowed positions down towards the tip of the
yard below. They are then not adjusted significantly while sailing
until the sail is to be handed (put away) again. The lowest sails, the
courses, are trimmed using the sheets as these sails are loose
footed and are secured to yards only at the head."
Post by Tak To
Post by pensive hamster
And he doesn't explain how "sheeted home" comes to mean nothing
more than "assigned" or "attached."
More on that. The important thing here is that there is (was)
indeed a nautical term "sheet home".
Post by pensive hamster
And he concludes by saying "But then, the sort of writer who would use
such an obscure expression [as "sheeted home", presumably] is probably
more interested in using it frequently than in using it correctly."
I don't know whether the example was found elsewhere by
Bob Lieblich or was included in the ladywashington.org and
what the context was.
] Eg. 1 - The Judge also held that his persistent 'bully-boy
] practice of industrial relations' was to be sheeted home to
] the Builders Labourers Federation ..
However, from just this sentence and nothing else, I would
disagree with BL that the meaning is "nothing more than
'assigned' or 'attached'". I think the meaning is closer
to "[was to be] reigned in by" or "properly handled by".
And it would be closer to McGregor's usage as well.
Post by pensive hamster
To me, it seems probably an illustration of how landlubbers may have
difficulty in using nautical metaphors correctly.
Generally true, but not necessarily in this case.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
b***@aol.com
2020-02-14 21:29:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:56:53 -0800 (PST), pensive hamster
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
Never heard it either. There's "sheeting in", meaning pull in on the
rope(s) that trim the sail(s), but I have no idea what sheeting home is.
I think you've missed the meaning intended. The comment is that they
are "sheeting home-responsibility", not sheeting "home". It's odd to
use "home" there, but it's saying that the responsibility should be
shouldered by the officials of the place (home) where the crisis is
based.
No, "sheet home" is a phrasal verb. M-W says:

|sheet home
|1: to extend (a sail) and set as flat as possible by hauling upon
|the sheets
|2: to fix the responsibility for : bring home to one

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sheet

Where "2:" fits the bill.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by pensive hamster
Perhaps, pulling in the sheets as far as they will come, in order to
"sheet in hard".)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Bill Day
2020-02-14 15:53:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:08:14 -0500, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
One well-known sea shanty, "Rolling Home" has a variety of verses.
One version includes this verse:

"Round Cape Horn on a winter's morning
Now among the ice and snow,
You will hear our shellbacks singin'
Sheet her home, boys, let 'er go!
--
remove nonsense for reply
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-14 17:52:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
I've seen it, sometime, somewhere, used literally,
with the meaning of fixing a sail in the correct position.
No idea where, Hornblower perhaps,
something like an order: sheet home the maintops'l.
Forester was fond of using detail like that.
(but it may well have been somewhere else)

When setting more sail, a sail would be dropped from its yard,
it would flap wildly, after which it would be brought under control
by pulling in the sheets.

Figuratively it must mean something like putting it where it belongs,
against resistance and wild attemps at evasion.

Jan

BTW, cognate with Dutch 'schoot',
and from very old germanic or even Indo-European roots.
Ross
2020-02-14 20:43:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
I have heard this idiom ("sheeting home") in this sense many times,
but never looked into it.

OED's entry for sheet v.2 has, unfortunately, not been updated since
1914, but their definition is:

to sheet home: to extend the sheets of (the topsails) to the outer
extremities of the yards so that the clews are close to the sheet-blocks.

(I'm also not a sailor so can't explicate that any further.)

They make special reference to this quotation as indicating an
"extended sense":

1867 W. H. Smyth & E. Belcher Sailor's Word-bk. Sheet home!..
Also, when driving anything home, as a blow, &c.

So, perhaps, from whatever nautical action the original indicated,
to an extended sense of "driving home", pushing to a conclusion,
and (in your example) firmly attaching (responsibility, blame) to
an individual or group.
Ross
2020-02-14 22:43:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Tony Cooper
"The personnel changes can be spun as Beijing finally taking decisive
action and beginning the process of sheeting home responsibility for
the crisis," said Richard McGregor, a senior fellow at the Lowy
Institute in Sydney, using a nautical idiom meaning to fix blame, "but
they also reek a little of panic."
That idiom has sailed past me if ever used before.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
I have heard this idiom ("sheeting home") in this sense many times,
but never looked into it.
OED's entry for sheet v.2 has, unfortunately, not been updated since
to sheet home: to extend the sheets of (the topsails) to the outer
extremities of the yards so that the clews are close to the sheet-blocks.
(I'm also not a sailor so can't explicate that any further.)
They make special reference to this quotation as indicating an
1867 W. H. Smyth & E. Belcher Sailor's Word-bk. Sheet home!..
Also, when driving anything home, as a blow, &c.
So, perhaps, from whatever nautical action the original indicated,
to an extended sense of "driving home", pushing to a conclusion,
and (in your example) firmly attaching (responsibility, blame) to
an individual or group.
Others have explained that the "sheets" here are ropes (attached to sails).
For completeness we might also mention that this is a special sense of
"home" (adv.), most like OED's 2a "to the place where something belongs;
to an original, customary, or proper place or position" or maybe
"to or at the point or mark aimed for; so as to reach, touch, or penetrate effectively; to or at the ultimate position, as far as possible".
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