Discussion:
How did US English sound in 1953?
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Dingbat
2019-11-01 23:27:10 UTC
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How did US English sound way back? A friend sent me this sample:

Eleanor Rossevelt on What's My Line in 1953:


Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.

At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?

At 29:34, Roosevelt is pronounced with [o:]. I've heard [ro:***@vElt]
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].

This Wpost article claims that Teddy R and FDR's surnames were pronounced
differently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1984/07/25/a-rose-by-any-other-name/6fed0191-ce79-48be-8111-aa08cb2a6fcb/

This says that Teddy described his own pronunciation of it as 3
syllables starting with <rose>.
https://www.myneworleans.com/how-to-say-roosevelt/
occam
2019-11-01 23:45:59 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
I have visions of Dingbat Jr. III posting a similar post in 2082 with a
clip of Melania Trump saying something on TV. Vat vill hiz qvestion be I
vonder?
RH Draney
2019-11-01 23:50:24 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
For what it's worth, that man, John Charles Daly, was South African....
Post by Dingbat
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].
There were also people who insisted on pronouncing FDR's name as
"Rosenfeld", implying that he was secretly Jewish or at least someone
whose sympathies lay with the Jews....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 12:12:36 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
For what it's worth, that man, John Charles Daly, was South African....
(Didn't sound it, though.)
Post by RH Draney
Post by Dingbat
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].
There were also people who insisted on pronouncing FDR's name as
"Rosenfeld", implying that he was secretly Jewish or at least someone
whose sympathies lay with the Jews....r
All evidence to the contrary.
Ken Blake
2019-11-01 23:51:30 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
In my experience almost everyone in the US says "I would," not "I should."

Similarly we almost all say "I will," not "I shall."
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-11-02 09:01:19 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
In my experience almost everyone in the US says "I would," not "I should."
Similarly we almost all say "I will," not "I shall."
But "shall I", not "will I".
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 12:13:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Dingbat
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
In my experience almost everyone in the US says "I would," not "I should."
Similarly we almost all say "I will," not "I shall."
But "shall I", not "will I".
Different meanings. One requesting permission, one requesting prophecy.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 12:11:18 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??

She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.

When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Post by Dingbat
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
No, it isn't.
Post by Dingbat
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think so."
Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
Define "very long time." It would be rare now.
Post by Dingbat
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].
The two branches of the family pronounced the Dutch name differently.
Theodore Ruse-velt, Franklin Rose-velt. ER was presumably Eleanor
Ruse-velt Rosevelt.
Post by Dingbat
This Wpost article claims that Teddy R and FDR's surnames were pronounced
differently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1984/07/25/a-rose-by-any-other-name/6fed0191-ce79-48be-8111-aa08cb2a6fcb/
Oh, you already knew!
Post by Dingbat
This says that Teddy described his own pronunciation of it as 3
syllables starting with <rose>.
https://www.myneworleans.com/how-to-say-roosevelt/
Unlikely, since records of contemporary pronunciations of FDR's name are
readily available (of TR's, not so much). The syllable count is correct.
Dingbat
2019-11-02 12:36:17 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
About the time my correspondent was born is the time for which he
chose to provide a sample. I have no quibble with his presuming
that 1953 was way back enough for me.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Post by Dingbat
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
No, it isn't.
What are some salient differences?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think
so." Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
Define "very long time." It would be rare now.
When was it used at all in the US?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].
The two branches of the family pronounced the Dutch name differently.
Theodore Ruse-velt, Franklin Rose-velt. ER was presumably Eleanor
Ruse-velt Rosevelt.
Post by Dingbat
This Wpost article claims that Teddy R and FDR's surnames were
pronounced differently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1984/07/25/a-rose-by-any-other-name/6fed0191-ce79-48be-8111-aa08cb2a6fcb/
Oh, you already knew!
Teddy R's relative Eleanor's pronunciation of her maiden name is
indeterminate; I have no data to go on. I don't know what to make of
the claim (above) that Teddy R used Ruse-a-velt because his own
description (below) of his pronunciation explains that he started it
with Rose.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
This says that Teddy described his own pronunciation of it as 3
syllables starting with <rose>.
https://www.myneworleans.com/how-to-say-roosevelt/
Unlikely, since records of contemporary pronunciations of FDR's name are
readily available (of TR's, not so much). The syllable count is correct.
If it's unlikely that Teddy R described his pronunciation as starting with
Rose, that would make the above mentioned document a hoax.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 12:58:08 UTC
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Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
About the time my correspondent was born is the time for which he
chose to provide a sample. I have no quibble with his presuming
that 1953 was way back enough for me.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Post by Dingbat
Readily understandable to anyone who can follow US TV today. Whether
it's identical to today's US English is a more difficult question.
No, it isn't.
It isn't a difficult question.
Post by Dingbat
What are some salient differences?
Most obviously, the vowels.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
At 16:37, a man says "I would think so" where I'd say "I should think
so." Has the latter not been used in US English for a very long time?
Define "very long time." It would be rare now.
When was it used at all in the US?
18th century, obviously. That's why God invented the Google Books n-gram.
Post by Dingbat
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
from one who'd be nearing 80 if he were alive. Some younger people
say [oU] and sometimes elide the schwa before [v].
The two branches of the family pronounced the Dutch name differently.
Theodore Ruse-velt, Franklin Rose-velt. ER was presumably Eleanor
Ruse-velt Rosevelt.
Post by Dingbat
This Wpost article claims that Teddy R and FDR's surnames were
pronounced differently.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1984/07/25/a-rose-by-any-other-name/6fed0191-ce79-48be-8111-aa08cb2a6fcb/
Oh, you already knew!
Teddy R's relative Eleanor's pronunciation of her maiden name is
indeterminate; I have no data to go on. I don't know what to make of
the claim (above) that Teddy R used Ruse-a-velt because his own
description (below) of his pronunciation explains that he started it
with Rose.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
This says that Teddy described his own pronunciation of it as 3
syllables starting with <rose>.
https://www.myneworleans.com/how-to-say-roosevelt/
Unlikely, since records of contemporary pronunciations of FDR's name are
readily available (of TR's, not so much). The syllable count is correct.
If it's unlikely that Teddy R described his pronunciation as starting with
Rose, that would make the above mentioned document a hoax.
No, it would make him as aware of his own speech as almost every layperson
is. He also fell for the "simplifiede spelling" hoax, and as soon as Taft
took over, his instruction to the Government Printing Office was rescinded.
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 15:01:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Oh my God, we are dealing with a Mayflower descendant here.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 22:53:21 UTC
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Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Oh my God, we are dealing with a Mayflower descendant here.
Both my maternal grandparents were born in Brooklyn. Cele was my
grandmother's oldest sister; and there was a older brother, whom
I never met, because he had moved to Memphis long ago). and another
sister in between the ones I mentioned.

Evidently Skippy is a little child, if he or she thinks having
grandparents born in the 19th century something beyond belief.
David Kleinecke
2019-11-02 23:35:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Oh my God, we are dealing with a Mayflower descendant here.
Both my maternal grandparents were born in Brooklyn. Cele was my
grandmother's oldest sister; and there was a older brother, whom
I never met, because he had moved to Memphis long ago). and another
sister in between the ones I mentioned.
Evidently Skippy is a little child, if he or she thinks having
grandparents born in the 19th century something beyond belief.
All of my grandparents were born before the Civil War.
Janet
2019-11-03 12:04:58 UTC
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Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
http://youtu.be/0Ew82Ae_N9g
1953 is "way back"??
She has a normal NYC upper-class accent of that generation.
When I heard a recording of Theodore Roosevelt (ER's uncle, b. 1858),
I was amazed at how much he sounded like my great-aunt Cele (b. 1888?).
Oh my God, we are dealing with a Mayflower descendant here.
Both my maternal grandparents were born in Brooklyn. Cele was my
grandmother's oldest sister; and there was a older brother, whom
I never met, because he had moved to Memphis long ago). and another
sister in between the ones I mentioned.
Evidently Skippy is a little child, if he or she thinks having
grandparents born in the 19th century something beyond belief.
All of my grandparents were born before the Civil War.
My father was born in 1889. He was a decade older than his father-in-
law, my maternal grandfather.

Janet.

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