Discussion:
[Fwd: Netherlandic]
(too old to reply)
Peter Moylan
2006-10-09 03:48:23 UTC
Permalink
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.

It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.

The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have. This includes the two-volume van Dale Dutch/English/Dutch
dictionary. Google gives a respectable-but-not-large 74,500 hits for the
word. This is less than one-tenth the googlecount you get for words like
"pachyderm" or "ornithorhynchus".

Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?

More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Frances Kemmish
2006-10-09 04:12:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
Slim to none, I would think. My mother wouldn't even have asked for a
"Nederlans" one, but would have said "Hollands".

A few years ago, my mother suffered a stroke, and was taken,
unconscious, from the nursing home where she lived, to the nearest
hospital. When she recovered consciousness, she spoke only Dutch. The
nursing staff called a Polish interpreter - presumably on the assumption
that, if she was foreign, she must be Polish.

Eventually, they spoke to my brother who told them she was Dutch, and
they managed to find a Dutch-speaking doctor in the hospital, but not
before my mother had made her displeasure felt at not being understood.
She was offered a cup of tea with milk in it, and when the person who
brought it could not understand what she was saying (we suppose it was
something like "I don't like milk in my tea") my mother threw it at her.

Fran
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-09 11:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frances Kemmish
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
Slim to none, I would think. My mother wouldn't even have asked for a
"Nederlans" one, but would have said "Hollands".
A few years ago, my mother suffered a stroke, and was taken,
unconscious, from the nursing home where she lived, to the nearest
hospital. When she recovered consciousness, she spoke only Dutch. The
nursing staff called a Polish interpreter - presumably on the assumption
that, if she was foreign, she must be Polish.
Eventually, they spoke to my brother who told them she was Dutch, and
they managed to find a Dutch-speaking doctor in the hospital, but not
before my mother had made her displeasure felt at not being understood.
She was offered a cup of tea with milk in it, and when the person who
brought it could not understand what she was saying (we suppose it was
something like "I don't like milk in my tea") my mother threw it at her.
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)

I did read somewhere that it has become necessary
to establish Dutch-language nursing homes for the elderly
in Australia.
With dementia setting in it is the foreign language ability
which gets lost first.

Best,

Jan
Robert Bannister
2006-10-10 01:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is not
unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius van
der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 14:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is not
unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius van
der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
With one Dutchman. you have a belief.
With two Dutchman, you have a church.
With three Dutchmen, you have a schism.

Jan
Percival P. Cassidy
2006-10-10 14:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is not
unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius van
der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
I'm not sure what to make of that, since, AFAIK, there is no church (or
at least no denomination) officially known by that name in Australia:
What used to be called the "Reformed Churches of Australia" are now
known as the "Christian Reformed Churches of Australia". There is also a
small group of "Free Reformed Churches" located mainly in Western
Australia and Tasmania, but that is a split imported from the
Netherlands, not a homegrown one.

Perce
(dual-citizen OzBrit, aka "whingeing Pommie bastard", now resident in USA)
Robert Bannister
2006-10-11 00:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is
not unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius
van der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
I'm not sure what to make of that, since, AFAIK, there is no church (or
What used to be called the "Reformed Churches of Australia" are now
known as the "Christian Reformed Churches of Australia". There is also a
small group of "Free Reformed Churches" located mainly in Western
Australia and Tasmania, but that is a split imported from the
Netherlands, not a homegrown one.
I think you're right about "Free Reformed Church", but I'm pretty
certain that even the Dutch called it the "Dutch Reformed Church". I
knew the minister (or whatever the term is) well and taught his
daughter. Despite all I'd heard about the no dancing/singing strictness
of the church, he was very easy to get on with. BTW, Dutch women who
marry non-Dutch Australian men proudly call themselves "duchesses".
--
Rob Bannister
Jitze Couperus
2006-10-11 07:00:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:48:42 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is
not unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius
van der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
I'm not sure what to make of that, since, AFAIK, there is no church (or
What used to be called the "Reformed Churches of Australia" are now
known as the "Christian Reformed Churches of Australia". There is also a
small group of "Free Reformed Churches" located mainly in Western
Australia and Tasmania, but that is a split imported from the
Netherlands, not a homegrown one.
I think you're right about "Free Reformed Church", but I'm pretty
certain that even the Dutch called it the "Dutch Reformed Church". I
knew the minister (or whatever the term is) well and taught his
daughter. Despite all I'd heard about the no dancing/singing strictness
of the church, he was very easy to get on with. BTW, Dutch women who
marry non-Dutch Australian men proudly call themselves "duchesses".
The Dutch are fairly schism-prone in their churches, so much so that
they use two different past participle constructs to denote the word
"reformed". This allows two churches to have separate identities
but still have "reformed" in their name.

There is the "Gereformeerde Kerk" and the "Hervormde Kerk"
for starters, and then we can add modifiers such as "free" or
liberated (vrijgemaakt). I once lived in a fairly minor village
which sported five different churches, and the two nieghbors
on either side of me would not even deign to greet each other
in the street because they differed in their beliefs/church
membership. And the neighbor behind me refused to speak
to either of them because they were so intolerant. He also
had the habit of gardening in his postage-stamp sized back yard
on Sundays which made the two side-neighbors very sad
and concerned for his soul, or so they confided in me.

Jitze

But then on the other hand, the neighbor behind me was
a
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jitze Couperus
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:48:42 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Percival P. Cassidy
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia,
under an official program subsidising that.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this,
because the Dutch blended in quite well in most cases.
For example: Lodder+Australia gives over 50.000 hits,
even though "Lodder" is a 'small' family name in Holland.
(Some hits from an English general called Lodder though)
There are a very large number in Western Australia, especially in the
Albany region. They have sporadic fights over their churches: it is
not unusual to read in the "Albany Advertiser", 'I, Henricus Cornelius
van der Linden, have nothing to do with the Dutch Reformed Church'.
I'm not sure what to make of that, since, AFAIK, there is no church (or
What used to be called the "Reformed Churches of Australia" are now
known as the "Christian Reformed Churches of Australia". There is also a
small group of "Free Reformed Churches" located mainly in Western
Australia and Tasmania, but that is a split imported from the
Netherlands, not a homegrown one.
I think you're right about "Free Reformed Church", but I'm pretty
certain that even the Dutch called it the "Dutch Reformed Church". I
knew the minister (or whatever the term is) well and taught his
daughter. Despite all I'd heard about the no dancing/singing strictness
of the church, he was very easy to get on with. BTW, Dutch women who
marry non-Dutch Australian men proudly call themselves "duchesses".
The Dutch are fairly schism-prone in their churches, so much so that
they use two different past participle constructs to denote the word
"reformed". This allows two churches to have separate identities
but still have "reformed" in their name.
It is 'were' nowadays.
Forced by the continuing loss of members
the various protestant churches are trying to fuse.

And even fused they will still be relatively small.
The majority doesn't belong to any church anymore.

Jan
Peter Moylan
2006-10-10 05:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia, under an official
program subsidising that.
It was that infamous White Australia policy. Somebody decided that the
Dutch were almost as white as the English.
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this, because the Dutch blended
in quite well in most cases.
Indeed they did. It was nearly impossible to tell the difference between
a Dutch immigrant and a native-born Australian. Only the name gave it
away. Dutch people can learn to speak accentless Australian better than
any other group I know. They also lacked the habit, found in some other
migrant groups, of forming ghettoes with their compatriots.

But, as you say, second-language competence tends to fade away as one
gets older. A few years ago a friend of mine got her elderly mother to
move in with her, and it more or less coincided with the time the mother
was losing her English and could speak only French. Unfortunately, the
daughter had never bothered to learn French.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 14:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia, under an official
program subsidising that.
It was that infamous White Australia policy. Somebody decided that the
Dutch were almost as white as the English.
Sure, way above the frogs or wops.
Don't blame the Australians though:
the mass emigration was official Dutch policy.
It was believed at the time that it would be impossible
to house, feed, and employ all those people.
There was a fear that without mass emigration
a thirties-style depression would recur.
Other countries (Canada for example)
also received many Dutch emigrants.
Post by Peter Moylan
Most Austalians seem to be unaware of this, because the Dutch blended
in quite well in most cases.
Indeed they did. It was nearly impossible to tell the difference between
a Dutch immigrant and a native-born Australian. Only the name gave it
away. Dutch people can learn to speak accentless Australian better than
any other group I know. They also lacked the habit, found in some other
migrant groups, of forming ghettoes with their compatriots.
They couldn't afford to,
for they generally had a hard time,
at least in the beginning
Post by Peter Moylan
But, as you say, second-language competence tends to fade away as one
gets older. A few years ago a friend of mine got her elderly mother to
move in with her, and it more or less coincided with the time the mother
was losing her English and could speak only French. Unfortunately, the
daughter had never bothered to learn French.
Just learn a better pronunciation of English,

Jan
John Holmes
2006-10-22 04:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Around 1950 many Dutch emigrated to Australia, under an official
program subsidising that.
It wasn't only Dutch; a lot of others came under the same scheme.
Post by Peter Moylan
It was that infamous White Australia policy. Somebody decided that the
Dutch were almost as white as the English.
There were also quite a few Indonesian Dutch who ended up here about the
same time (50s-60s).

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

R H Draney
2006-10-09 14:39:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frances Kemmish
A few years ago, my mother suffered a stroke, and was taken,
unconscious, from the nursing home where she lived, to the nearest
hospital. When she recovered consciousness, she spoke only Dutch. The
nursing staff called a Polish interpreter - presumably on the assumption
that, if she was foreign, she must be Polish.
We all had a nice laugh a few years ago when someone came into the laundromat I
use and started speaking Spanish to the woman behind the counter, recently
arrived from India, based solely on the observation that she had brown skin....r
--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-09 09:04:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.
It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.
Indeed a mistake.
Post by Peter Moylan
The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have.
The Britannica for example does mention it,
and gives the politically correct explanations.
Post by Peter Moylan
This includes the two-volume van Dale Dutch/English/Dutch
dictionary.
Indeed the best there is.
Do check back though to look up the translation they provide
in the other volume when you are not sure.
Post by Peter Moylan
Google gives a respectable-but-not-large 74,500 hits for the
word. This is less than one-tenth the googlecount you get for words like
"pachyderm" or "ornithorhynchus".
Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?
'Netherlandic art' is just a (mostly American) mistake.
The correct term is 'Netherlandish art'.
It is used to indicate the art of the Low Countries,
from Flemish primitives to Dutch Golden Age,
without reference to who lived where
in what was to become he Netherlands and Belgium.
It does -not- refer to the Netherlands alone.
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
A clever tourist would say: I am from the Netherlands.
Can you find a Dutch interpreter please?

Jan
Don Phillipson
2006-10-09 12:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic. . . .
Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
This probability may be high, cf. Dutch postage
stamps and banknotes (pre-Euro) which named
the country as Nederland (anglice The Netherlands.)
The point is that, among Dutch place-names
(1) Holland names two important provinces
(2) Nederland is the general name for the whole
country. cf. NL in Internet addresses.

Citizens of this country are used to dealing with
its various names. (NB the English adjective
Dutch comes from the Dutch name for Germany
= Duitsland.) What the Dutch people say in their
own language is usually Nederland/Nederlander.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-09 19:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Phillipson
Post by Peter Moylan
It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic. . . .
Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
This probability may be high, cf. Dutch postage
stamps and banknotes (pre-Euro) which named
the country as Nederland (anglice The Netherlands.)
The name of the country is officially:
'Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands)
(with a plural) which is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
The English didn't invent the plural,
they just prefer another abreviation.
Before the Brits imposed a king (1815)
it was The Republic of the Seven United Provinces, also a plural,
for it was a federation of seven indepent states.
(compare the United States of America)

Holland was the largest and most powerful of the provinces.
Precisely because it was felt to be too too powerful
it was split in 1815 into North- and South Holland.
Post by Don Phillipson
The point is that, among Dutch place-names
(1) Holland names two important provinces
(2) Nederland is the general name for the whole
country. cf. NL in Internet addresses.
Citizens of this country are used to dealing with
its various names.
It doesn't differ much from England/Britain.
'Nederlands' as the name for the language is a recent.
'Hollands' was used until fifty years ago,
for 'Nederlands' is just another name
for the dialect of Holland.
Post by Don Phillipson
(NB the English adjective
Dutch comes from the Dutch name for Germany
= Duitsland.) What the Dutch people say in their
own language is usually Nederland/Nederlander.
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.

Best,

Jan
Robert Bannister
2006-10-10 01:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands)
(with a plural) which is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter Moylan
2006-10-10 08:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries). These days there are probably lots of English speakers who
don't know what "nether" means; it's a word at risk of falling out of
the dictionary.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Stuart Chapman
2006-10-10 09:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries). These days there are probably lots of English speakers who
don't know what "nether" means; it's a word at risk of falling out of
the dictionary.
I only hear it used (rarely) in the phrase "the nether region." The
speaker isn't referring to Holland.

Stupot

PS: Is there a corresponding 'Uberlands', or something like that?

PPS: Holland = Hole Land ???
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart Chapman
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries). These days there are probably lots of English speakers who
don't know what "nether" means; it's a word at risk of falling out of
the dictionary.
I only hear it used (rarely) in the phrase "the nether region." The
speaker isn't referring to Holland.
Stupot
PS: Is there a corresponding 'Uberlands', or something like that?
Don't mention Battus, Opperlandse taalkunde.
<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opperlandse_taal-_&_letterkunde>
Post by Stuart Chapman
PPS: Holland = Hole Land ???
I was told it's from Houtland (wooded land)
It is hard to imagine when you look at it now,
but originally most of Holland consisted of wooded marshes
with lots of willow, birch, etc.

Jan
Jitze Couperus
2006-10-10 20:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Stuart Chapman
PPS: Holland = Hole Land ???
I was told it's from Houtland (wooded land)
It is hard to imagine when you look at it now,
but originally most of Holland consisted of wooded marshes
with lots of willow, birch, etc.
Yabbut, from some recess in my mind I associate it with
the "hol" as in Schiphol - i.e. whatever that hol means is
also what it means in Hol-land.

The question then would be what is the etymology of
the hol in Schiphol...

I quote:

De naam Schiphol komt al voor in een stuk, gedateerd
11 september 1447 ("Sciphol"). De oorsprong van de naam
staat niet vast, maar zou verwijzen naar een moerasachtig
stuk land waar men hout (Gotisch: 'scip') kon halen; naar
een bedding voor schepen; of naar de scheepsrampen die
juist in deze noordoostelijke hoek van het Haarlemmermeer
("scheeps-hel") veel voorkwamen omdat die lagerwal was bij
de meest voorkomende windrichting. Een andere verklaring
die hier enigszins op aansluit wijst op een oud woord 'hol' dat
'graf' betekende. Weer een andere theorie zoekt het bij een
woord dat verwant is met 'hal' (en het Engelse "hall"), wat
juist zou duiden op een toevluchtsoord voor schepen in nood,
een veilige haven.

A bunch of theories there including "boggy morass" and "grave"

I vote for the boggy morass theory, it is in nice distinction from
a place of higher elevations in the country that rejoices in the
name Hoogezand (high sand). When I was there I found out
that the latter is at an altitude of 3 meteres above sea level.

Jitze
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 21:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jitze Couperus
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Stuart Chapman
PPS: Holland = Hole Land ???
I was told it's from Houtland (wooded land)
It is hard to imagine when you look at it now,
but originally most of Holland consisted of wooded marshes
with lots of willow, birch, etc.
Yabbut, from some recess in my mind I associate it with
the "hol" as in Schiphol - i.e. whatever that hol means is
also what it means in Hol-land.
The question then would be what is the etymology of
the hol in Schiphol...
De naam Schiphol komt al voor in een stuk, gedateerd
11 september 1447 ("Sciphol"). De oorsprong van de naam
staat niet vast, maar zou verwijzen naar een moerasachtig
stuk land waar men hout (Gotisch: 'scip') kon halen; naar
een bedding voor schepen; of naar de scheepsrampen die
juist in deze noordoostelijke hoek van het Haarlemmermeer
("scheeps-hel") veel voorkwamen omdat die lagerwal was bij
de meest voorkomende windrichting. Een andere verklaring
die hier enigszins op aansluit wijst op een oud woord 'hol' dat
'graf' betekende. Weer een andere theorie zoekt het bij een
woord dat verwant is met 'hal' (en het Engelse "hall"), wat
juist zou duiden op een toevluchtsoord voor schepen in nood,
een veilige haven.
That fits. Schip = ship, hol = hout = wood.
You should also keep in mind that the 'Haarlemmermeer'
(the former lake that Schiphol is in) was mmuch smaller
in the middle ages.
It grew with every heavy storm from the south-west,
and was essentially out of control
till steam power became available.
Post by Jitze Couperus
A bunch of theories there including "boggy morass" and "grave"
I vote for the boggy morass theory, it is in nice distinction from
a place of higher elevations in the country that rejoices in the
name Hoogezand (high sand). When I was there I found out
that the latter is at an altitude of 3 meteres above sea level.
Enough is enough,

Jan
Daniel al-Autistiqui
2006-10-10 16:46:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:02:55 +1000, Stuart Chapman
Post by Stuart Chapman
I only hear it used (rarely) in the phrase "the nether region." The
Rare[ly]?

daniel mcgrath
--
Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"

Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
& periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]
R H Draney
2006-10-10 19:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel al-Autistiqui
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:02:55 +1000, Stuart Chapman
Post by Stuart Chapman
I only hear it used (rarely) in the phrase "the nether region." The
Rare[ly]?
The affliction has an inflection!...r
--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 12:04:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives)
It isn't a good idea to make assumptions about living
from letters in an adress through which mail or news is routed.
Post by Peter Moylan
and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries).
Google knows better: "Did you mean to search for: "the NetherLands"
Using 'the Nether Lands' with a space in it is just a mistake.
(strangely enough often made by natives from there)
Post by Peter Moylan
These days there are probably lots of English speakers who
don't know what "nether" means; it's a word at risk of falling out of
the dictionary.
Doesn't Tolkien use it a lot?
Anyway, with five million googles
it isn't dead yet by a long way,

Jan
Snidely
2006-10-10 19:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries).
This distinction was not too serious before 1826 or so, with some local
variations of status over the previous 50 years (and at various times
after Phillip II, also).

/dps

(A key event could be considered the Dutch equivalent of the Alamo, at
the emotional level, even though the Belgians played the role of
successionists that went to the Texans over here)
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 20:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries).
This distinction was not too serious before 1826 or so, with some local
variations of status over the previous 50 years (and at various times
after Phillip II, also).
/dps
(A key event could be considered the Dutch equivalent of the Alamo, at
the emotional level, even though the Belgians played the role of
successionists that went to the Texans over here)
Not really.
Apart from the king and his coterie who lost influence
most of the Dutch at the time reacted with 'good riddance'
to the 'loss' of Belgium.

The union wasn't the idea of the Dutch.
It was forced by the Brits in 1815,
to annoy the French,

Jan
Snidely
2006-10-10 23:04:24 UTC
Permalink
J. J. Lodder wrote:
[...]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Snidely
(A key event could be considered the Dutch equivalent of the Alamo, at
the emotional level, even though the Belgians played the role of
successionists that went to the Texans over here)
Not really.
Apart from the king and his coterie who lost influence
most of the Dutch at the time reacted with 'good riddance'
to the 'loss' of Belgium.
Well, I wasn't really speaking about the whole issue. (The House of
Orange had several ups and downs before that, too, didn't they?)

My understanding of one event in that parting of the ways is that a
gunboat was sent on a mission that turned out to be a "forlorn hope",
and the captain became a national hero for not letting the Francophones
capture the vessel -- by firing his pistol into the powder store, IIRC.
Post by J. J. Lodder
The union wasn't the idea of the Dutch.
It was forced by the Brits in 1815,
to annoy the French,
No doubt I have to read all the pertinent material 2 or 3 more times
before I get it straight, but didn't the Flemish and the Walloons get
swizzled between various flags at several different times, from Phillip
II onward?

Not to mention that the ancestral tribes were getting much pushed
around at the time of Caesar (the Gaius Julius one -- "veni vidi vici
-- et tu Brute") by western Celts being pushed north, by Roman forces,
and by protoGermans escaping harassment from the east (those harassers
in turn escaping from the harassment of the Huns and other eastern
Steppe people).

/dps
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
[...]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Snidely
(A key event could be considered the Dutch equivalent of the Alamo, at
the emotional level, even though the Belgians played the role of
successionists that went to the Texans over here)
Not really.
Apart from the king and his coterie who lost influence
most of the Dutch at the time reacted with 'good riddance'
to the 'loss' of Belgium.
Well, I wasn't really speaking about the whole issue. (The House of
Orange had several ups and downs before that, too, didn't they?)
My understanding of one event in that parting of the ways is that a
gunboat was sent on a mission that turned out to be a "forlorn hope",
and the captain became a national hero for not letting the Francophones
capture the vessel -- by firing his pistol into the powder store, IIRC.
Right. Mr Van Speijk said: 'Dan maar de lucht in',
and held a fuse to the powder.
(In that case I'll go up in the air)
However, it wasn't the Francophones he feared.
It was the Antwerp rabble that might have taken his boat,
and they certainly didn't speak French.
More than you could possibly want to know on the page
<http://www.vanspeijk.nl/main.php?Page=VanSpeijk&SubPage=vanspeijk>
(in Dutch)
And no, he wasn't sent on a hopeless mission.
He just couldn't sail, and allowed himself
to be caught on a lee shore when the wind veered suddenly.
It would never have happened to Hornblower of course.
Post by Snidely
Post by J. J. Lodder
The union wasn't the idea of the Dutch.
It was forced by the Brits in 1815,
to annoy the French,
No doubt I have to read all the pertinent material 2 or 3 more times
before I get it straight, but didn't the Flemish and the Walloons get
swizzled between various flags at several different times, from Phillip
II onward?
They didn't draw the best of lots in history.
And in between some others trampled on them just for fun.
Post by Snidely
Not to mention that the ancestral tribes were getting much pushed
around at the time of Caesar (the Gaius Julius one -- "veni vidi vici
-- et tu Brute") by western Celts being pushed north, by Roman forces,
and by protoGermans escaping harassment from the east (those harassers
in turn escaping from the harassment of the Huns and other eastern
Steppe people).
Sure, that holds for the whole region,
including Northern France. (Picardy)
Armies like to pass through there.
The Hollanders were luckier, with all their water.

Jan
Snidely
2006-10-11 19:05:45 UTC
Permalink
J. J. Lodder wrote:
[...]
Post by J. J. Lodder
They didn't draw the best of lots in history.
And in between some others trampled on them just for fun.
Seems to be a recurring theme around the planet, unfortunately.

Thanks for the tips!

/dps
Robert Bannister
2006-10-11 00:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Robert Bannister
The name of the country is officially: 'Het Koninkrijk der
Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands) (with a plural) which
is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
A distinction used to be made in English between "The Netherlands" (the
country where Jan lives) and "the Nether Lands" (all of the low
countries). These days there are probably lots of English speakers who
don't know what "nether" means; it's a word at risk of falling out of
the dictionary.
In Australia, the word is seldom met, but in England there are quite a
few villages with names like "Nether Wallop", which is usually downhill
from "Upper Wallop", though sometimes is just means less important.
--
Rob Bannister
Graeme Thomas
2006-10-11 01:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
In Australia, the word is seldom met, but in England there are quite a
few villages with names like "Nether Wallop", which is usually downhill
from "Upper Wallop", though sometimes is just means less important.
There are three Wallops: Nether Wallop, Middle Wallop, and Over Wallop.
Middle Wallop was once (and perhaps still is) a major airbase. They are
in Hampshire, between Andover and Salisbury.

Last year there was a major film called, I think, _Firefly_. It was
(cross-thread alert) a magnificent piece of space opera. At one point
in the film the crew of the eponymous spaceship land on a planet with a
view to getting some Rest and Recreation. The ship's engineer (who, in
a departure from tradition, was not a gruff Scotsman, but a [cross-
thread alert] female) claimed that she wanted to meet a chap, as it was
"months since she'd had anything twixt her nethers that didn't run on
batteries". Unfortunately the vagaries of the plot, such as it was,
intervened, and the batteries had to get another workout.
--
Graeme Thomas
Robert Bannister
2006-10-12 00:47:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Thomas
Post by Robert Bannister
In Australia, the word is seldom met, but in England there are quite a
few villages with names like "Nether Wallop", which is usually downhill
from "Upper Wallop", though sometimes is just means less important.
There are three Wallops: Nether Wallop, Middle Wallop, and Over Wallop.
Middle Wallop was once (and perhaps still is) a major airbase. They are
in Hampshire, between Andover and Salisbury.
Oh dear. I thought I had made the name up. I should have realise that
somewhere in England any silly name you can think of has already been taken.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 20:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands)
(with a plural) which is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
"The Low Countries" is generally understood not to include Luxemburg.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Countries>
It is a very vague term however,
and it doesn't refer to a well-defined geographical area.

'Benelux' is sometimes used to refer to
The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg together.
There is a 'Benelux treaty' between them,

Jan
Robert Bannister
2006-10-11 01:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands)
(with a plural) which is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
"The Low Countries" is generally understood not to include Luxemburg.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Countries>
It is a very vague term however,
and it doesn't refer to a well-defined geographical area.
'Benelux' is sometimes used to refer to
The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg together.
There is a 'Benelux treaty' between them,
Certainly the word "low" does not apply well to either Luxemburg or most
of southern and eastern Belgium.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
'Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden' (The Kingdom of the Netherlands)
(with a plural) which is abreviated to Nederland (singular)
One problem with the name is the temptation to translate it into "Low
Countries", which then includes Belgium and Luxemburg.
"The Low Countries" is generally understood not to include Luxemburg.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Countries>
It is a very vague term however,
and it doesn't refer to a well-defined geographical area.
'Benelux' is sometimes used to refer to
The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxemburg together.
There is a 'Benelux treaty' between them,
Certainly the word "low" does not apply well to either Luxemburg or most
of southern and eastern Belgium.
In practice it usually refers to the (more or less) Dutch speaking part.
Over the centuries the language border has moved North,

Jan
Mark Brader
2006-10-12 00:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Certainly the word "low" does not apply well to either Luxemburg
or most of southern and eastern Belgium.
Anyone from, say, Colorado or Switzerland will laugh at that. The
highest point in either Belgium or Luxembourg is less than 700 m,
or 2,300 feet in real money. (The Netherlands, under 1,000 feet.)

The spelling "Luxemburg" looks like German to me, not English.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It's easier to deal with 'opposite numbers'
***@vex.net | when you know you cannot trust them." --Chess
Robert Bannister
2006-10-12 01:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Robert Bannister
Certainly the word "low" does not apply well to either Luxemburg
or most of southern and eastern Belgium.
Anyone from, say, Colorado or Switzerland will laugh at that. The
highest point in either Belgium or Luxembourg is less than 700 m,
or 2,300 feet in real money. (The Netherlands, under 1,000 feet.)
Undoubtedly, but the hills are quite steep.
Post by Mark Brader
The spelling "Luxemburg" looks like German to me, not English.
Just as "Luxembourg" looks French. However, you are correct: English
does use the French spelling for a large number of foreign places.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-12 08:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Robert Bannister
Certainly the word "low" does not apply well to either Luxemburg
or most of southern and eastern Belgium.
Anyone from, say, Colorado or Switzerland will laugh at that. The
highest point in either Belgium or Luxembourg is less than 700 m,
or 2,300 feet in real money. (The Netherlands, under 1,000 feet.)
No no no, the 'Vaalserberg' stands at 322.5 metres,
(you convert to king's anatomy)
so more than a thousand feet.
Never underestimate the Netherlands.

The summit of the 'Vaalserberg' is the 'drielandenpunt'
where The Netherlands, Belgium and Germany meet.
Post by Mark Brader
The spelling "Luxemburg" looks like German to me, not English.
It is also the Dutch spelling,
so the appropriate one in a Benelux context,

Jan
Eric Schwartz
2006-10-09 20:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?

-=Eric
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-10 14:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?
You misunderstood the situation.
This Phillip II of Spain you mention
-was- the Count of Holland.

After the revolt there no longer was a Count of Holland,
as far as the Hollanders were concerned,
for he had been abolished, (1585, Acte van Verlatinge)

Jan
Eric Schwartz
2006-10-10 18:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?
You misunderstood the situation.
This Phillip II of Spain you mention
-was- the Count of Holland.
Well, yes, but my understanding was that the revolt was against a
Spanish army, not a German one (unless you're getting excessively
technical and claiming that the Spanish army was *really* German,
because they were vassals of the Holy Roman Empire). And arguably,
the Holy Roman Empire was Spanish rather than German at that point, as
Philip was the only legitimate son of Charles V, who had died almost
25 years earlier, in 1558.
Post by J. J. Lodder
After the revolt there no longer was a Count of Holland,
as far as the Hollanders were concerned,
for he had been abolished, (1585, Acte van Verlatinge)
1581, surely? Or possibly 1579, with the Union of Utrecht?

-=Eric
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:02:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?
You misunderstood the situation.
This Phillip II of Spain you mention
-was- the Count of Holland.
Well, yes, but my understanding was that the revolt was against a
Spanish army, not a German one (unless you're getting excessively
technical and claiming that the Spanish army was *really* German,
because they were vassals of the Holy Roman Empire).
You are right, it was mostly Spaniards,
and it was a Spanish occupation.
(but it was a hireling army, so many other nationalities as well)
De jure however, Philips II of Spain was the boss in Holland
because he was (by inheritance) the Count of Holland.
Post by Eric Schwartz
And arguably,
the Holy Roman Empire was Spanish rather than German at that point, as
Philip was the only legitimate son of Charles V, who had died almost
25 years earlier, in 1558.
German emperors were elected.
Philips II never was, so he wasn't.
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
After the revolt there no longer was a Count of Holland,
as far as the Hollanders were concerned,
for he had been abolished, (1585, Acte van Verlatinge)
1581, surely? Or possibly 1579, with the Union of Utrecht?
You are right of course, it definitely is Not Memorable.
Only '1600, Battle of Nieuwpoort' is,

Jan
Robert Bannister
2006-10-12 00:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
German emperors were elected.
Philips II never was, so he wasn't.
I'm too lazy to check up on the dates, but at some point it became
hereditary when the Habsburgs took it over. I know the title "Elector"
(Kurfürst) was retained, but I don't think there were any elections
anymore. So you are right about Philip, but later it was different.
--
Rob Bannister
Matthew Huntbach
2006-10-12 08:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
German emperors were elected.
Philips II never was, so he wasn't.
I'm too lazy to check up on the dates, but at some point it became
hereditary when the Habsburgs took it over. I know the title "Elector"
(Kurfürst) was retained, but I don't think there were any elections
anymore. So you are right about Philip, but later it was different.
My understanding is that it remained in theory an elected position,
though the electors got into the habit of just electing the next Habsburg.

Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister
2006-10-11 01:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?
You misunderstood the situation.
This Phillip II of Spain you mention
-was- the Count of Holland.
After the revolt there no longer was a Count of Holland,
as far as the Hollanders were concerned,
for he had been abolished, (1585, Acte van Verlatinge)
Where does Egmont fit into all this? I remember reading Goethe's play
and I think Beethoven wrote some jingle about him.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Eric Schwartz
Post by J. J. Lodder
Nederduitsland (Lower Germany)
was a medieval name for the region.
In feudal theory the Counts of Holland were vassals
of the German emperors.
In practice they were completely independent,
after beating a German army early in the middle ages.
Was this before or after they gained independence from Phillip II of
Spain?
You misunderstood the situation.
This Phillip II of Spain you mention
-was- the Count of Holland.
After the revolt there no longer was a Count of Holland,
as far as the Hollanders were concerned,
for he had been abolished, (1585, Acte van Verlatinge)
Where does Egmont fit into all this? I remember reading Goethe's play
and I think Beethoven wrote some jingle about him.
The counts of Egmond and Hoorne were executed in public,
(on the Grote Markt in Brussels)
as part of a campaign of repression of protestantism.
They were followers of William of Orange.
William himself had fled to Germany
to escape a similar fate.

Jan
Robert Bannister
2006-10-12 00:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Robert Bannister
Where does Egmont fit into all this? I remember reading Goethe's play
and I think Beethoven wrote some jingle about him.
The counts of Egmond and Hoorne were executed in public,
(on the Grote Markt in Brussels)
as part of a campaign of repression of protestantism.
They were followers of William of Orange.
William himself had fled to Germany
to escape a similar fate.
Thanks for that.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-12 08:30:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Robert Bannister
Where does Egmont fit into all this? I remember reading Goethe's play
and I think Beethoven wrote some jingle about him.
The counts of Egmond and Hoorne were executed in public,
(on the Grote Markt in Brussels)
as part of a campaign of repression of protestantism.
They were followers of William of Orange.
William himself had fled to Germany
to escape a similar fate.
Thanks for that.
This is what the Dutch kiddies had to think they looked like:
<http://www.de-kantlijn.com/afbeeldingen/geschiedenis/isings/Herschaalde
%20kopie%20van%20isingsraadvanstate.jpg>
(A meeting of the Council of State)

Standing behind the table is William of Orange,
pleading religious tolerance to the bored old woman
looking like she has a bad headache. (oh no, not him again)

She is the 'landvoogdes' (regent) ruling the Low Countries
in the name of Philip II.
The two old gentlemen sitting on Williams right (so left for us)
are Egmond and Hoorne. (no, don't know who is who)

Best,

Jan

BTW, googling for Isings yields some more gems.
Mr Isings produced a series of 'schoolplaten'.
Elementary schools had as many of them as they could afford,
and rolled out an appropriate one for the lessons
in 'vaderlandse geschiedenis'. (patriotic history)
Collectors items nowadays.
tinwhistler
2006-10-09 16:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have.
Here is OED's entry for "Netherlandic, a.":

[f. Netherland + -ic.]

= Netherlandish a.

1902 Encycl. Brit. XXXI. 294/1 Wienecke is interesting for the sake
of his early Netherlandic manner. 1972 E. Krispyn in A. Dixon tr.
Boon's Chapel Road p. i, Louis Paul Boon, born in 1912, is one of the
most interesting and controversial contemporary prose writers in the
Netherlandic area. Ibid. p. ii, The medieval Netherlandic story of
Reynard the Fox. 1973 Mod. Lang. Assoc. Newsletter Mar. 1 There are
Provencal and Netherlandic groups, but with the exception of 'Chinese
Language and Literature', which presently has provisional status,
there are no groups in Oriental or African languages or literatures.
1975 Times Lit. Suppl. 28 Nov. 1429/1 There is also one [series of
books] of international studies and translations, including a Dutch
(or, as the publishers call it, Netherlandic) section.
Peter Moylan
2006-10-10 05:22:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have.
[snipt]

Thanks. I note, however, that this and similar references mention "the
Netherlandic area", "Netherlandic culture", and so on, but they rarely
talk of a Netherlandic language.

One reference I did find - sorry, I forgot to note where it was - said
something like "The Dutch language is sometimes subdivided into two
sublanguages, namely Netherlandic and Flemish". Here, it clearly means
"that version of the Dutch language spoken in the Netherlands". The
language itself is still called Dutch.

I should have earlier given a reference to the list of languages kept by
the Australian Bureau of Statistics. Here it is (beware of wrapping):

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/***@.nsf/66f306f503e529a5ca25697e0017661f/488A5EBF21426B58CA256B3B00149F8B?opendocument

The relevant part of it is:
14 Netherlandic and Related Languages
1400 Netherlandic and Related Languages, n.f.d.
1401 Netherlandic
1402 Frisian

Note that Netherlandic is used here both as the name of a group and as
one member of that group. Note also that Afrikaans, which is arguably
closer to mainstream Dutch than Frisian is, is not included in the
group. Afrikaans is instead classified as an African language. (There's
a mention somewhere or other that Afrikaans is the only African language
that belongs to the Indo-European family.)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Prai Jei
2006-10-10 17:33:27 UTC
Permalink
Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
Post by Peter Moylan
(There's
a mention somewhere or other that Afrikaans is the only African language
that belongs to the Indo-European family.)
Don't they speak English anywhere in Africa these days?
--
Warning: keel away from child for hot bulb

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Peter Moylan
2006-10-10 23:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Prai Jei
Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
(There's a mention somewhere or other that Afrikaans is the only
African language that belongs to the Indo-European family.)
Don't they speak English anywhere in Africa these days?
Ah, well there's the interesting contradiction. In the official
classification I mentioned, English is not an African language because
it already exists in a different section of the document. You could say
the same about French, which is spoken in some parts of Africa but is
not considered to be an African language because it's already a Western
European language.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Don Aitken
2006-10-11 00:01:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:01:00 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Prai Jei
Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in
(There's a mention somewhere or other that Afrikaans is the only
African language that belongs to the Indo-European family.)
Don't they speak English anywhere in Africa these days?
Ah, well there's the interesting contradiction. In the official
classification I mentioned, English is not an African language because
it already exists in a different section of the document. You could say
the same about French, which is spoken in some parts of Africa but is
not considered to be an African language because it's already a Western
European language.
You can classify languages by their relationships (although that
includes a lot of guesswork in some cases). Or you can classify them
purely geographically (which introduces its own problems, as this
example indicates). Or you can do what the Australian Bureau of
Statistics does, and cunningly devise a method of your own, which
manages to combine all the disdvantages of both of the systematic
methods.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-11 09:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Prai Jei
Peter Moylan (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
Post by Peter Moylan
(There's
a mention somewhere or other that Afrikaans is the only African language
that belongs to the Indo-European family.)
Don't they speak English anywhere in Africa these days?
That's English that the English understand.
Afrikaans is something that the Dutch have to learn,

Jan
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-10-12 02:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.
It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.
AFAIK it's used as a "dialect neutral" name for Dutch, Dutch sometimes
reserved for the dialect of Holland.
Post by Peter Moylan
The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have. This includes the two-volume van Dale Dutch/English/Dutch
dictionary. Google gives a respectable-but-not-large 74,500 hits for the
word. This is less than one-tenth the googlecount you get for words like
"pachyderm" or "ornithorhynchus".
Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.
Gary McKintoast
2006-10-12 03:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter Moylan
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.
It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.
AFAIK it's used as a "dialect neutral" name for Dutch, Dutch sometimes
reserved for the dialect of Holland.
Holland is Netherland, of Netherland is Dutch, the Dutch is from
Holland. That means Holland is Netherland.
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-10-12 03:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McKintoast
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter Moylan
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.
It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.
AFAIK it's used as a "dialect neutral" name for Dutch, Dutch sometimes
reserved for the dialect of Holland.
Holland is Netherland, of Netherland is Dutch, the Dutch is from
Holland. That means Holland is Netherland.
that's not the issue.
Dylan Sung
2006-10-12 07:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary McKintoast
Holland is Netherland, of Netherland is Dutch, the Dutch is from
Holland. That means Holland is Netherland.
Double Dutch!
;-)
Dyl.
Yusuf B Gursey
2006-10-12 03:26:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Peter Moylan
My wife works in the interpreter's section of the public health system.
Recently a Belgian patient was recorded as needing a Danish interpreter,
because someone couldn't find "Dutch" in the language database.
Fortunately a liaison officer spotted the contradiction and changed
"Danish" to "Flemish" before any damage was done. Nevertheless, it's
easy to imagine a situation where the error wasn't corrected, and the
wrong interpreter was called in a time-critical situation.
It turns out that the health system bases its list of languages on
Australian Bureau of Statistics census codes. It further turns out that
"Dutch" has disappeared from the ABS's list of languages. The numeric
code that used to be assigned to Dutch and Flemish is now assigned to
Netherlandic.
AFAIK it's used as a "dialect neutral" name for Dutch, Dutch sometimes
reserved for the dialect of Holland.
Post by Peter Moylan
The word "Netherlandic" doesn't seem to exist in the dictionaries I
have. This includes the two-volume van Dale Dutch/English/Dutch
dictionary. Google gives a respectable-but-not-large 74,500 hits for the
word. This is less than one-tenth the googlecount you get for words like
"pachyderm" or "ornithorhynchus".
Is there anywhere in the English-speaking world where this is a
well-understood word? Is it perhaps a linguists' term of art? Or is it
just someone's clumsy attempt to make English closer to German and Dutch?
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
see also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_%28terminology%29
Dik T. Winter
2006-10-12 13:19:46 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
Approximately zero.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
Joachim Pense
2006-10-12 21:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dik T. Winter
...
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
Approximately zero.
I sometimes wonder why the Flames don't seem to have a problem calling
their language "Nederlands", but - in my experience - do have a
problem calling it "Dutch" in Englisch.

Jochim
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-13 07:45:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by Dik T. Winter
...
Post by Peter Moylan
More to the point: if a Dutch tourist in Australia had a medical
emergency and needed an interpreter, what is the probability that they
would ask for a Netherlandic interpreter?
Approximately zero.
I sometimes wonder why the Flames
The Flamish please.
Post by Joachim Pense
don't seem to have a problem calling
their language "Nederlands", but - in my experience - do have a
problem calling it "Dutch" in Englisch.
Eh, English.
The reason is that they feel that 'Dutch'
is the language of those awful 'Ollanders',

Jan
Ruud Harmsen
2006-10-13 07:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Joachim Pense
I sometimes wonder why the Flames
The Flamish please.
Flemish.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Joachim Pense
don't seem to have a problem calling
their language "Nederlands", but - in my experience - do have a
problem calling it "Dutch" in Englisch.
There is no such problem. The English translation of the Dutch word
"Nederlands" is "Dutch".
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-13 09:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Joachim Pense
I sometimes wonder why the Flames
The Flamish please.
Flemish.
Skitt's law is unescapable.
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Joachim Pense
don't seem to have a problem calling
their language "Nederlands", but - in my experience - do have a
problem calling it "Dutch" in Englisch.
There is no such problem. The English translation of the Dutch word
"Nederlands" is "Dutch".
You can have a problem without there being one,

Jan
Ruud Harmsen
2006-10-13 09:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Joachim Pense
I sometimes wonder why the Flames
The Flamish please.
Flemish.
Skitt's law is unescapable.
Wotsat?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skitt's_law
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
wugi
2006-10-13 18:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
I sometimes wonder why the Flames don't seem to have a problem calling
their language "Nederlands", but - in my experience - do have a
depends who, when, with whom...
Post by Joachim Pense
problem calling it "Dutch" in Englisch.
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.

Flaming guido :-)
http://home.scarlet.be/~pin12499/index.html
Joachim Pense
2006-10-14 20:36:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.

Joachim
Ruud Harmsen
2006-10-14 21:33:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
No it does not.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com
2006-Oct-14 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm
1) Accents in gl and pt
2) Difs betw es & pt -
Robert Bannister
2006-10-14 23:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
I wonder whether "Dutch" has ever meant "German" in English (with
certain exceptions in parts of the USA). Gulliver says he speaks High
and Low German, but most people assume "Low German" does not mean
Plattdeutsch but Dutch. Of course, "Dutch" is etymologically the same as
"Deutsch", but that is not what it means in English.

Note: the Germans usually call the language "Holländisch", while
"Niederdeutsch" covers all the languages/dialects of the northern areas
including Dutch.
--
Rob Bannister
Peter T. Daniels
2006-10-14 23:35:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
I wonder whether "Dutch" has ever meant "German" in English (with
certain exceptions in parts of the USA). Gulliver says he speaks High
and Low German, but most people assume "Low German" does not mean
Plattdeutsch but Dutch. Of course, "Dutch" is etymologically the same as
"Deutsch", but that is not what it means in English.
I don't know why you'd pick on "certain exceptions in parts of the
USA"; Pennsylvania Dutch is the name of the language of the Amish,
which has a separate chapter in the Routledge *Germanic Languages*
volume, called "Pennsylvania German."
Post by Robert Bannister
Note: the Germans usually call the language "Holländisch", while
"Niederdeutsch" covers all the languages/dialects of the northern areas
including Dutch.
Robert Bannister
2006-10-15 00:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
I wonder whether "Dutch" has ever meant "German" in English (with
certain exceptions in parts of the USA). Gulliver says he speaks High
and Low German, but most people assume "Low German" does not mean
Plattdeutsch but Dutch. Of course, "Dutch" is etymologically the same as
"Deutsch", but that is not what it means in English.
I don't know why you'd pick on "certain exceptions in parts of the
USA"; Pennsylvania Dutch is the name of the language of the Amish,
which has a separate chapter in the Routledge *Germanic Languages*
volume, called "Pennsylvania German."
That is precisely what I was referring too. As far as I know, "Dutch" is
not used generally all over the US to mean "German", but I believe that
at one time, it was used rather farther afield than Pennsylvania, but
only in the Eastern States.
--
Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-15 08:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
I wonder whether "Dutch" has ever meant "German" in English (with
certain exceptions in parts of the USA). Gulliver says he speaks High
and Low German, but most people assume "Low German" does not mean
Plattdeutsch but Dutch. Of course, "Dutch" is etymologically the same as
"Deutsch", but that is not what it means in English.
I don't know why you'd pick on "certain exceptions in parts of the
USA"; Pennsylvania Dutch is the name of the language of the Amish,
which has a separate chapter in the Routledge *Germanic Languages*
volume, called "Pennsylvania German."
That is precisely what I was referring too. As far as I know, "Dutch" is
not used generally all over the US to mean "German", but I believe that
at one time, it was used rather farther afield than Pennsylvania, but
only in the Eastern States.
The 'Dutch' in expressions involving 'Dutch'
does refer (almost?) exclusively to the Dutch in England.
In the US 'Dutch' may also refer to something of German origin.
See Spruijt's 'Total Dutch', (Ref to at)
<http://www.onzetaal.nl/tijdschr/inzicht/i9910.php>
for many other exmples.

In some cases (such as Ronald 'Dutch' Reagan)
it isn't even clear where the origin lies.

Best,

Jan
b***@ihug.co.nz
2006-10-15 11:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
I wonder whether "Dutch" has ever meant "German" in English (with
certain exceptions in parts of the USA). Gulliver says he speaks High
and Low German, but most people assume "Low German" does not mean
Plattdeutsch but Dutch. Of course, "Dutch" is etymologically the same as
"Deutsch", but that is not what it means in English.
I don't know why you'd pick on "certain exceptions in parts of the
USA"; Pennsylvania Dutch is the name of the language of the Amish,
which has a separate chapter in the Routledge *Germanic Languages*
volume, called "Pennsylvania German."
That is precisely what I was referring too. As far as I know, "Dutch" is
not used generally all over the US to mean "German", but I believe that
at one time, it was used rather farther afield than Pennsylvania, but
only in the Eastern States.
The 'Dutch' in expressions involving 'Dutch'
does refer (almost?) exclusively to the Dutch in England.
In the US 'Dutch' may also refer to something of German origin.
See Spruijt's 'Total Dutch', (Ref to at)
<http://www.onzetaal.nl/tijdschr/inzicht/i9910.php>
for many other exmples.
In some cases (such as Ronald 'Dutch' Reagan)
it isn't even clear where the origin lies.
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/reference/facts.html

Up to the 18th century, "Dutch" was used in English generally to refer
to the entire Continental West Germanic continuum. Somebody cited
Gulliver speaking "High German", but OED has Defoe at the same period
talking about "High Dutch".

"Dutch" = German as a language name may be restricted to the
northeastern USA, perhaps because German-speaking communities are
lacking in much of the rest of the country.

However, Chapman (Dict Amer Slang) has "Dutch" as = "German (adj)" or
"a nickname for anyone with a German surname", without regional
restriction. The gangster "Dutch" Schultz came to mind (real name
Arthur Flegenheimer, of German-Jewish origin), but he was a New Yorker
(apparently his nickname came from some earlier thug). And "Dutchman"
for a German (sometimes with even wider European reference) is well
attested from all over. I think I've heard it, at least from my
grandparents' generation, in Canada.

Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
2006-10-15 13:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Up to the 18th century, "Dutch" was used in English generally to refer
to the entire Continental West Germanic continuum. Somebody cited
Gulliver speaking "High German", but OED has Defoe at the same period
talking about "High Dutch".
"Dutch" = German as a language name may be restricted to the
northeastern USA, perhaps because German-speaking communities are
lacking in much of the rest of the country.
Hey, are we forgetting about Wisconsin and environs? Until 1914, there
were German-only public schools in Chicago.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2006-10-15 20:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Up to the 18th century, "Dutch" was used in English generally to refer
to the entire Continental West Germanic continuum. Somebody cited
Gulliver speaking "High German", but OED has Defoe at the same period
talking about "High Dutch".
"Dutch" = German as a language name may be restricted to the
northeastern USA, perhaps because German-speaking communities are
lacking in much of the rest of the country.
Hey, are we forgetting about Wisconsin and environs? Until 1914, there
were German-only public schools in Chicago.
I did say "much of". One could look and see if the usage is prevalent
in Wisconsin.
There were also German settlements in Texas. But those were of somewhat
later date, maybe after "Dutch"=German was no longer current in general
English.

Ross Clark
Pat Durkin
2006-10-15 22:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Up to the 18th century, "Dutch" was used in English generally to refer
to the entire Continental West Germanic continuum. Somebody cited
Gulliver speaking "High German", but OED has Defoe at the same period
talking about "High Dutch".
"Dutch" = German as a language name may be restricted to the
northeastern USA, perhaps because German-speaking communities are
lacking in much of the rest of the country.
Hey, are we forgetting about Wisconsin and environs? Until 1914, there
were German-only public schools in Chicago.
I did say "much of". One could look and see if the usage is prevalent
in Wisconsin.
There were also German settlements in Texas. But those were of
somewhat
later date, maybe after "Dutch"=German was no longer current in general
English.
As for Wisconsin, I don't think it is used much nowadays (nowdays), But
I think I was in my early teens before I learned that "dumb dutchman"
(used by some of my relatives to refer to other relatives) was really a
reference to dumb German blockheads (dummkopf), and not those nice
Hollanders.

I didn't do a good search, but one of the more famous works of
Wisconsin's famed 19th Century authors (Hamlin Garland) was entitled
"Rose of Dutcher's Coolly". Actually written in the early 20th Century,
along with a few other novels and some non-fiction.

Our local legend (he was born in my hometown) was that one of his books
was "banned in Boston", and I understood it was the "Rose, etc." one.
http://www.answers.com/topic/garland-hannibal-hamlin
Roland Hutchinson
2006-10-16 16:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pat Durkin
As for Wisconsin, I don't think it is used much nowadays (nowdays), But
I think I was in my early teens before I learned that "dumb dutchman"
(used by some of my relatives to refer to other relatives) was really a
reference to dumb German blockheads (dummkopf), and not those nice
Hollanders.
Nobody seems to remember the "Dutchman" stereotype that was well-known a
century ago.

Male Dutch speakers now call themselves "Dutchmen" in English without a
trace of irony; perhaps this has been the source of the term's
rehabilitation?
--
Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-16 20:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by Pat Durkin
As for Wisconsin, I don't think it is used much nowadays (nowdays), But
I think I was in my early teens before I learned that "dumb dutchman"
(used by some of my relatives to refer to other relatives) was really a
reference to dumb German blockheads (dummkopf), and not those nice
Hollanders.
Nobody seems to remember the "Dutchman" stereotype that was well-known a
century ago.
Male Dutch speakers now call themselves "Dutchmen" in English without a
trace of irony; perhaps this has been the source of the term's
rehabilitation?
Sure, 'I am Dutch' and 'I am a Dutchman'
are considered to be synonymous these days.

But maybe some Australian should tell the Dutchwomen
there really are Dutchesses,

Jan
R H Draney
2006-10-15 16:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
The 'Dutch' in expressions involving 'Dutch'
does refer (almost?) exclusively to the Dutch in England.
In the US 'Dutch' may also refer to something of German origin.
See Spruijt's 'Total Dutch', (Ref to at)
<http://www.onzetaal.nl/tijdschr/inzicht/i9910.php>
for many other exmples.
In some cases (such as Ronald 'Dutch' Reagan)
it isn't even clear where the origin lies.
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of Fergie's
(late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I get the connection to
Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny spelling?...r
--
"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
Peter T. Daniels
2006-10-15 17:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by J. J. Lodder
The 'Dutch' in expressions involving 'Dutch'
does refer (almost?) exclusively to the Dutch in England.
In the US 'Dutch' may also refer to something of German origin.
See Spruijt's 'Total Dutch', (Ref to at)
<http://www.onzetaal.nl/tijdschr/inzicht/i9910.php>
for many other exmples.
In some cases (such as Ronald 'Dutch' Reagan)
it isn't even clear where the origin lies.
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of Fergie's
(late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I get the connection to
Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then I
think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region of
Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
Skitt
2006-10-15 18:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then I
think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region of
Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started somewhere and is
spreading.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Skitt
2006-10-15 18:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny
spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
benlizross
2006-10-15 19:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny
spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
And a town in Australia. Welcome to the world of the Orthographic
Undead. According to OED, <tch> spellings of both "bachelor" and
"duchess" begin in the 16th century.

Ross Clark
Peter T. Daniels
2006-10-15 21:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by benlizross
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny
spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
And a town in Australia. Welcome to the world of the Orthographic
Undead. According to OED, <tch> spellings of both "bachelor" and
"duchess" begin in the 16th century.
But Dutchess County isn't named for a duchess, but for the Dutch who
got there first.
b***@ihug.co.nz
2006-10-15 22:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by benlizross
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
And a town in Australia. Welcome to the world of the Orthographic
Undead. According to OED, <tch> spellings of both "bachelor" and
"duchess" begin in the 16th century.
But Dutchess County isn't named for a duchess, but for the Dutch who
got there first.
You mean it's really "Dutch's county"? Weird.

Ross Clark
Donna Richoux
2006-10-15 22:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by benlizross
And a town in Australia. Welcome to the world of the Orthographic
Undead. According to OED, <tch> spellings of both "bachelor" and
"duchess" begin in the 16th century.
But Dutchess County isn't named for a duchess, but for the Dutch who
got there first.
You mean it's really "Dutch's county"? Weird.
Wikipedia says it was an influence but not the root:

The county was named in honor of Mary of Modena,
Duchess of York, second wife of the future King
James II. Somehow, a "t" got added to the county
name. This was probably a misunderstanding due to
the large number of Dutch immigrants in upstate New
York at the time, coupled with the looseness of
spelling in 17th-century English.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Atkinson
2006-10-16 03:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by benlizross
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called
"Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny
spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
And a town in Australia.
Next door to Rum Jungle. Named after Mr Batchelor, of course. South
Australian Labour politician Egerton Lee Batchelor (1865-1911) who
became Minister for the Northern Territory in 1911.

As a surname, the spelling with "t" is overwhelmingly more common. Even
Batchelar and Batcheler have more starters than Bachelor in the Sydney
phone book.

John.
John Atkinson
2006-10-16 03:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Atkinson
Post by benlizross
And a town in Australia.
Next door to Rum Jungle. Named after Mr Batchelor, of course. South
Australian Labour politician Egerton Lee Batchelor (1865-1911) who
became Minister for the Northern Territory in 1911.
More irrelevance:

"Batchelor is best known [for] a rather raucous incident in 1871. A
bullock-wagon load of rum became bogged near jungle in the East Finniss
River prompting the fearless bullockies to settle in for one of the most
notorious binges in Northern Territory history."

J.
Peter T. Daniels
2006-10-15 21:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by R H Draney
For the past couple of weeks, I've been wondering why the title of
Fergie's (late of Black Eyed Peas) new CD is called "Dutchess"...I
get the connection to Sarah Ferguson, but why the funny
spelling?...r
That's the name of the New York county east of the Hudson three north
of NYC (north of the Bronx, it's Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, then
I think Columbia, and that about takes you to the tri-cities region
of Schenectady-Troy-Albany).
It's also the name of a street a few blocks from the one I live on. I have
been wondering if it might be a misspelling that started
somewhere and is spreading.
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
"Batchelder" is a surprisingly common street name. There's one in
Brooklyn.
Donna Richoux
2006-10-15 22:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Skitt
Oh, I should also mention that there are Batchelor Streets in several towns.
"Batchelder" is a surprisingly common street name. There's one in
Brooklyn.
The Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames lists a dozen spelling
variants that descended from the Old French "bacheler," a young knight.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
John Atkinson
2006-10-16 03:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
The Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames lists a dozen spelling
variants that descended from the Old French "bacheler," a young knight.
Presumably Michelle Bachelet, president of Chile, is descended from a
young knightess?

John.
J. J. Lodder
2006-10-15 08:24:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
Certainly not.
It refers to 'Diets', an obsolete Dutch word (guess why)
for the language they speak,

Jan
wugi
2006-10-16 16:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joachim Pense
Post by wugi
might be that 'Dutch' has more connotations referring to Holland than does
'Nederlands', rather like 'Hollands'.
That's what I think, too, but I cannot tell why. After all,
"Nederlands" refers explicitly to the Netherlands, while "Dutch", if
anything, refers to Germany.
"Nederlands" may be felt referring to "de Nederlanden", when all provinces
of "the Low Countries" were united, and to their heirs.
The English kept saying "the Netherlands" after the split-up, whereas in
Dutch it became singular "Nederland", the adjective keeping a broader pallet
however.
The English called "Dutch" the folk they mostly met by such name: Dutch
sea-farers, when they still called themselves Duytsers that would be.
The perception of "Dutch" in Flanders is thus Holland-focused, whereas
"Nederlands" isn't so much. That was my point.

guido
http://home.scarlet.be/~pin12499
Loading...