Discussion:
Two headlines
(too old to reply)
Quinn C
2019-01-13 03:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.

Saudi woman granted Canada asylum

What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."

Chinese Huawei businessman in Poland spy arrests

Now that I couldn't make head or tails of. Apparently, the plural
refers to a Chinese Huawei businessman and another unnamed person. Do
you find that acceptable?
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
Ross
2019-01-13 04:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
Post by Quinn C
Chinese Huawei businessman in Poland spy arrests
Now that I couldn't make head or tails of. Apparently, the plural
refers to a Chinese Huawei businessman and another unnamed person. Do
you find that acceptable?
Yes. It simply says that such a businessman is involved in the arrests
in Poland -- presumably among those arrested.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-13 06:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
I didn't even know that Canada had applied for asylum.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2019-01-13 06:49:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Quinn C
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
I didn't even know that Canada had applied for asylum.
I didn't know that there was an asylum called the Canada asylum, or that
someone was granting it to people.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "As for Canada's lack of mystique,
***@vex.net it is not unique." -- Mark Leeper
Quinn C
2019-01-13 16:51:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
--
WinErr 008: Erroneous error. Nothing is wrong.

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe this to be an actual Windows
error message.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-13 17:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
On the contrary. Anyone actually granted asylum in any country in the
world right now is pretty much a miracle and therefore decidedly
newsworthy!
Peter Moylan
2019-01-13 21:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific
person like that, dropping the article and all. I guess the
default interpretation is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the
one that was all over the news recently."
I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between
definite and indefinite. That headline would have been equally
appropriate if the woman had not previously been in the news. The
full report would say "A Saudi woman has been granted asylum in
Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no
context, has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything
newsworthy. "Dog bites man".
On the contrary. Anyone actually granted asylum in any country in
the world right now is pretty much a miracle and therefore decidedly
newsworthy!
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia. While our own Minister for Rejecting Refugees was trying to
find an acceptable way to claim that she was a terrorist, Canada stepped
right in and undermined his case.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2019-01-13 23:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
What she *said* was:

I seek protection in particular from the following country
Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net | "Able was I ere I saw Panama."
Peter Moylan
2019-01-14 02:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
I seek protection in particular from the following country
Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-14 20:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
--
Sam Plusnet
pensive hamster
2019-01-14 21:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
Bank notes and postage stamps, for example, are generally issued
by a government agency. Their confiscation by a government
official could be considered theft.
RHDraney
2019-01-14 21:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
Bank notes and postage stamps, for example, are generally issued
by a government agency. Their confiscation by a government
official could be considered theft.
It may be that the document, once issued, remains the property of the
agency that issued it...or it may become the property of the person to
whom it was issued...the legality of confiscation hinges in part upon
the difference....r
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-14 23:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHDraney
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
Bank notes and postage stamps, for example, are generally issued
by a government agency. Their confiscation by a government
official could be considered theft.
It may be that the document, once issued, remains the property of the
agency that issued it...or it may become the property of the person to
whom it was issued...the legality of confiscation hinges in part upon
the difference....r
From my passports, current and expired:
"This passport remains the property of Her Majesty's Government in the
United Kingdom and may be withdrawn at any time."

Expired passports are, I suppose, my property but are of no use as
passports.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-15 02:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by pensive hamster
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
Bank notes and postage stamps, for example, are generally issued
by a government agency. Their confiscation by a government
official could be considered theft.
Your point is accurate, but not a useful comparison.
Passports fall into a different category.
--
Sam Plusnet
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-14 23:51:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
--
It cannot. As I expounded in this group some weeks ago a passport
belongs to the issuing nation not to the person whose name it bears.
This is a matter of International Law. Every nation has an absolute
right to deny a citizen a passport or withdraw an existing one and
may do so without any requirement to give a reason for so doing.
There is no right of appeal.
Snidely
2019-01-15 07:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was trying to get to
Australia.
    I seek protection in particular from the following country
    Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for Australia.
This is known even though her passport was stolen by a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government, can its
confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
--
It cannot. As I expounded in this group some weeks ago a passport
belongs to the issuing nation not to the person whose name it bears.
This is a matter of International Law. Every nation has an absolute
right to deny a citizen a passport or withdraw an existing one and
may do so without any requirement to give a reason for so doing.
There is no right of appeal.
However, might a government have restrictions on which of its agents
can withdraw a passport? [I'd be sceptical that mattered in the posted
case, but it might be significant to some of us.]

/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Peter Moylan
2019-01-15 11:02:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
It was a major publicity coup for Canada. The woman was
trying to get to Australia.
I seek protection in particular from the following country
Canada/United States/ Australia /United kingdom
True; and she has achieved her goal. But her visa was for
Australia. This is known even though her passport was stolen by
a Saudi official.
Quibble: Since the passport was issued by the Saudi government,
can its confiscation, by a Saudi official, be theft?
--
It cannot. As I expounded in this group some weeks ago a passport
belongs to the issuing nation not to the person whose name it
bears. This is a matter of International Law. Every nation has an
absolute right to deny a citizen a passport or withdraw an existing
one and may do so without any requirement to give a reason for so
doing. There is no right of appeal.
However, might a government have restrictions on which of its agents
can withdraw a passport? [I'd be sceptical that mattered in the
posted case, but it might be significant to some of us.]
It might well matter in the posted case, given that the confiscation
happened not in Saudi Arabia but in Thailand. What evidence was offered
to the passport holder to indicate that the person taking the passport
was a properly accredited agent of the Saudi government? She says that
he got it from her by trickery.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2019-01-13 17:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person
like that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default
interpretation is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that
was all over the news recently."
I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between
definite and indefinite. That headline would have been equally
appropriate if the woman had not previously been in the news. The
full report would say "A Saudi woman has been granted asylum in
Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no
context, has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything
newsworthy. "Dog bites man".
I believe the subtext is "Finally, a chance to kick that Saudi bastard
in the shins".
Ross
2019-01-13 19:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Quinn C
2019-01-14 18:46:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested. A bland headline
like that requires a lot of confidence from the news outlet - an
expectation that faithful readers will read everything from this
publication on subject X, trusting that it'll be important enough. This
is increasingly difficult to pull off.
--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun
Ross
2019-01-14 21:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
Post by Quinn C
A bland headline like that requires a lot of confidence from the news
outlet - an expectation that faithful readers will read everything from
this publication on subject X, trusting that it'll be important enough.
This is increasingly difficult to pull off.
Maybe you're a journalist and speak from inside knowledge. But this is not
how I understand newspapers working. They have to make decisions about what
stories to run at what length, according to perceived reader interest.
The headlines are simply labels, written by underlings. People interested
in Saudi Arabia, or in matters involving refugees and asylum, will be inclined
to read that story.

But, on your account, what would a newspaper that lacked such "confidence"
have done? Did you have an alternative headline in mind?
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-15 03:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.

Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
--
Sam Plusnet
Ross
2019-01-15 04:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.
Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
Some 19th century newspapers had headlines like that -- really synopses of
the story. Nowadays they are under much severer length limitations.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-15 13:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference?
It does make a diference in the cae of the BBC website.

Many articles on the BBC website are also available on TV screens using
the "Red Button" text news service. Headlines need to be short enough to
fit. [1]

"Red Button" is named for the fact that you press the red button on the
remote to acces the service. The video image is reduced to a quarter of
it's size to make room for the text.

Examples:
Loading Image...

Loading Image...

The person who took that photo was using the TV to listen to BBC Radio
4.

The following shows the news index. There are also indexes for sport,
weather, travel, business, entertainment, etc.
Loading Image...

Each item in the index leads to a list of headlines. This image is from
some years ago, but the principle is the same:
Loading Image...

The text material used in that onscreen text service is automatically
extracted from the html files created for the website.
The headline of an article must be short enough to fit in the limited
onscreen space. The text that appears onscreen is part of the html file
marked as starting "story-body__introduction". So the writer/editor of
an article has to be aware that the first few sentences should be a
summary of the important points of the article. For example a current
news item is:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46868194

The html file has:
<p class="story-body__introduction">MPs are preparing to vote on
whether to back Theresa May's deal for leaving the European Union.
</p><p>The so-called "meaningful vote" will take place later as five
days of debate on Brexit come to an end.</p><p>Mrs May has called for
politicians to back her deal or risk "letting the British people
down".</p>><p>But with many of her own MPs expected to join opposition
parties to vote against the deal, it is widely expected to be
defeated.</p><p>Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has opened the last day of
debate, with Mrs May due to close the debate with a speech from about
18:30 GMT.</p>

The Red Button text service uses as much of that as will fit on to two
half-screens. In that case up to "defeated".
Post by Ross
I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.
Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
Some 19th century newspapers had headlines like that -- really synopses of
the story. Nowadays they are under much severer length limitations.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-15 15:45:36 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:41:58 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference?
It does make a diference in the cae of the BBC website.
Many articles on the BBC website are also available on TV screens using
the "Red Button" text news service. Headlines need to be short enough to
fit. [1]
"Red Button" is named for the fact that you press the red button on the
remote to acces the service. The video image is reduced to a quarter of
it's size to make room for the text.
https://www.tvanswers.org.uk/images/bbcinteractive_freeview.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgXfKk0WkAAxJ1H.jpg
The person who took that photo was using the TV to listen to BBC Radio
4.
The following shows the news index. There are also indexes for sport,
weather, travel, business, entertainment, etc.
http://www.astra2sat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BBC-RB3-e1490273385390.jpg
Each item in the index leads to a list of headlines. This image is from
https://www.tvandtech.co.uk/images/bbcredbutton.jpg
Insert [1] here.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The text material used in that onscreen text service is automatically
extracted from the html files created for the website.
The headline of an article must be short enough to fit in the limited
onscreen space. The text that appears onscreen is part of the html file
marked as starting "story-body__introduction". So the writer/editor of
an article has to be aware that the first few sentences should be a
summary of the important points of the article. For example a current
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46868194
<p class="story-body__introduction">MPs are preparing to vote on
whether to back Theresa May's deal for leaving the European Union.
</p><p>The so-called "meaningful vote" will take place later as five
days of debate on Brexit come to an end.</p><p>Mrs May has called for
politicians to back her deal or risk "letting the British people
down".</p>><p>But with many of her own MPs expected to join opposition
parties to vote against the deal, it is widely expected to be
defeated.</p><p>Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has opened the last day of
debate, with Mrs May due to close the debate with a speech from about
18:30 GMT.</p>
The Red Button text service uses as much of that as will fit on to two
half-screens. In that case up to "defeated".
Post by Ross
I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.
Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
Some 19th century newspapers had headlines like that -- really synopses of
the story. Nowadays they are under much severer length limitations.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ross
2019-01-15 19:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference?
It does make a diference in the cae of the BBC website.
Many articles on the BBC website are also available on TV screens using
the "Red Button" text news service. Headlines need to be short enough to
fit. [1]
"Red Button" is named for the fact that you press the red button on the
remote to acces the service. The video image is reduced to a quarter of
it's size to make room for the text.
https://www.tvanswers.org.uk/images/bbcinteractive_freeview.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgXfKk0WkAAxJ1H.jpg
The person who took that photo was using the TV to listen to BBC Radio
4.
The following shows the news index. There are also indexes for sport,
weather, travel, business, entertainment, etc.
http://www.astra2sat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BBC-RB3-e1490273385390.jpg
Each item in the index leads to a list of headlines. This image is from
https://www.tvandtech.co.uk/images/bbcredbutton.jpg
The text material used in that onscreen text service is automatically
extracted from the html files created for the website.
The headline of an article must be short enough to fit in the limited
onscreen space. The text that appears onscreen is part of the html file
marked as starting "story-body__introduction". So the writer/editor of
an article has to be aware that the first few sentences should be a
summary of the important points of the article. For example a current
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46868194
<p class="story-body__introduction">MPs are preparing to vote on
whether to back Theresa May's deal for leaving the European Union.
</p><p>The so-called "meaningful vote" will take place later as five
days of debate on Brexit come to an end.</p><p>Mrs May has called for
politicians to back her deal or risk "letting the British people
down".</p>><p>But with many of her own MPs expected to join opposition
parties to vote against the deal, it is widely expected to be
defeated.</p><p>Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has opened the last day of
debate, with Mrs May due to close the debate with a speech from about
18:30 GMT.</p>
The Red Button text service uses as much of that as will fit on to two
half-screens. In that case up to "defeated".
How would all of this affect the syntax or semantics of a headline,
which is what we're talking about?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ross
I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.
Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
Some 19th century newspapers had headlines like that -- really synopses of
the story. Nowadays they are under much severer length limitations.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-15 20:13:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference?
It does make a diference in the cae of the BBC website.
Many articles on the BBC website are also available on TV screens using
the "Red Button" text news service. Headlines need to be short enough to
fit. [1]
"Red Button" is named for the fact that you press the red button on the
remote to acces the service. The video image is reduced to a quarter of
it's size to make room for the text.
https://www.tvanswers.org.uk/images/bbcinteractive_freeview.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgXfKk0WkAAxJ1H.jpg
The person who took that photo was using the TV to listen to BBC Radio
4.
The following shows the news index. There are also indexes for sport,
weather, travel, business, entertainment, etc.
http://www.astra2sat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/BBC-RB3-e1490273385390.jpg
Each item in the index leads to a list of headlines. This image is from
https://www.tvandtech.co.uk/images/bbcredbutton.jpg
The text material used in that onscreen text service is automatically
extracted from the html files created for the website.
The headline of an article must be short enough to fit in the limited
onscreen space. The text that appears onscreen is part of the html file
marked as starting "story-body__introduction". So the writer/editor of
an article has to be aware that the first few sentences should be a
summary of the important points of the article. For example a current
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46868194
<p class="story-body__introduction">MPs are preparing to vote on
whether to back Theresa May's deal for leaving the European Union.
</p><p>The so-called "meaningful vote" will take place later as five
days of debate on Brexit come to an end.</p><p>Mrs May has called for
politicians to back her deal or risk "letting the British people
down".</p>><p>But with many of her own MPs expected to join opposition
parties to vote against the deal, it is widely expected to be
defeated.</p><p>Attorney General Geoffrey Cox has opened the last day of
debate, with Mrs May due to close the debate with a speech from about
18:30 GMT.</p>
The Red Button text service uses as much of that as will fit on to two
half-screens. In that case up to "defeated".
How would all of this affect the syntax or semantics of a headline,
which is what we're talking about?
The need for brevity.
Post by Ross
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Ross
I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline appears on the main page of the website & you need to
"click through" to get to the body of the story.
An intriguing headline is going to attract more clicks.
Your description of the purpose of a headline reminded me of "David
Copperfield" and its chapter headings. You could speed read the whole
book by digesting those (lengthy) chapter headings & forget about the
rest of the text.
Some 19th century newspapers had headlines like that -- really synopses of
the story. Nowadays they are under much severer length limitations.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-01-16 21:11:54 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 20:13:03 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 5:51:13 AM UTC+13, Quinn C
On Sunday, January 13, 2019 at 4:38:04 PM UTC+13, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
The need for brevity.
Please trim!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Snidely
2019-01-17 13:36:08 UTC
Permalink
trim!
k

/dps
--
Trust, but verify.
Quinn C
2019-01-15 17:29:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Today, two recent headlines from BBC news caught my eye.
Saudi woman granted Canada asylum
What I find remarkable is that you can refer to a specific person like
that, dropping the article and all. I guess the default interpretation
is "The Saudi woman, you know who, the one that was all over the news
recently."
s I think headline-ese genuinely neutralizes the opposition between definite
and indefinite. That headline would have been equally appropriate if the
woman had not previously been in the news. The full report would say "A
Saudi woman has been granted asylum in Canada....", proceeding to fill in details about her.
The latter, which would be my default interpretation with no context,
has the issue that the headline doesn't contain anything newsworthy.
"Dog bites man".
The story would presumably explain what was newsworthy about that particular
case. There's no requirement that the headline tell you everything.
Sure, but the headline is there to make me interested.
I really don't see it that way. The headline simply tells you what the
story is about; that can help you decide whether to read it or not.
Perhaps the headline on the lead front-page story will be juiced up
to grab people's attention and sell the paper (sometimes by making the
story look more interesting than it really is). But there's no reason
the rest have to be. What people are interested in will vary enormously.
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
My observation actually was that the headline surprisingly worked as is
because the story was familiar to many people at that point in time.

Most news outlets still gave a connector to the particular story in
their headlines, e.g. NPR:

Canada Grants Asylum To Saudi Woman Who Fled Her Family
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't think this is the usual meaning of
"spell checker"
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-15 21:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.

On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.

One way to stimulate that desire is a little creative ambiguity
(What the £$%^&* is a Canada Asylum?? - let's find out by clicking...)
--
Sam Plusnet
Ross
2019-01-15 22:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
What job?
Post by Sam Plusnet
On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.
Must it? You mean internet journalism is all going to go the way of
"10 Things You Didn't Know About Marilyn Monroe"? What's wrong
with just providing enough information for you to make your own decision?
Post by Sam Plusnet
One way to stimulate that desire is a little creative ambiguity
(What the £$%^&* is a Canada Asylum?? - let's find out by clicking...)
--
Sam Plusnet
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-15 22:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
What job?
Post by Sam Plusnet
On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.
Must it? You mean internet journalism is all going to go the way of
"10 Things You Didn't Know About Marilyn Monroe"? What's wrong
with just providing enough information for you to make your own decision?
Obviously you've never had a job in sales! Let them make their
own decisions? Are you mad?
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-16 02:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
What job?
The job of delivering readers to the content.
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.
Must it? You mean internet journalism is all going to go the way of
"10 Things You Didn't Know About Marilyn Monroe"? What's wrong
with just providing enough information for you to make your own decision?
Yes it must. And no I don't "mean internet journalism..." - and the
rest of the straw man argument.

Even the BBC website which is not a commercial venture but is funded by
TV Licence fee payers (you can thank us later) wishes to see a healthy
amount of traffic or its funding will come into question.
--
Sam Plusnet
Ross
2019-01-16 03:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
What job?
The job of delivering readers to the content.
But (according to your view), the readers will not be "delivered"
if the headline isn't zippy enough. If they're reading the newspaper,
they may read the headline, but they won't read that story. They've been
"delivered" as far as buying the paper, but not by that headline. (We're assuming it's not on the front page.)
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.
Must it? You mean internet journalism is all going to go the way of
"10 Things You Didn't Know About Marilyn Monroe"? What's wrong
with just providing enough information for you to make your own decision?
Yes it must. And no I don't "mean internet journalism..." - and the
rest of the straw man argument.
Not really an argument, just a comparison.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Even the BBC website which is not a commercial venture but is funded by
TV Licence fee payers (you can thank us later) wishes to see a healthy
amount of traffic or its funding will come into question.
Yah, but surely the traffic will consist largely of people who know they
can find timely and accurate news there, not those sucked in by some random
exciting headline.

But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 04:46:19 UTC
Permalink
On 1/15/19 8:19 PM, Ross wrote:
...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-16 08:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-16 12:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write headlines.
Urgh!
CDB
2019-01-16 15:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ross wrote: ...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted
headline was somehow not good enough. How would you improve
it? The only suggestion we've seen involved making it several
words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word
headline, but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or
if "Saudi woman" has to come first, then at the cost of one
word, "Saudi woman granted asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write
headlines. Urgh!
Me neither.

Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee in Family Abuse Scandal

Privileged Saudi Teen Jumps Canada Refugee Queue
(Full Frontal Face-Pix inside)

Ottawa Airport Freedom Hugs for Fleeing Saudi Beauty
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 17:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ross wrote: ...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted
headline was somehow not good enough. How would you improve
it? The only suggestion we've seen involved making it several
words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word
headline, but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or
if "Saudi woman" has to come first, then at the cost of one
word, "Saudi woman granted asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write
headlines. Urgh!
Me neither.
Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee in Family Abuse Scandal
Delete "in".
Post by CDB
Privileged Saudi Teen Jumps Canada Refugee Queue
(Full Frontal Face-Pix inside)
Ottawa Airport Freedom Hugs for Fleeing Saudi Beauty
Those are good.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-16 21:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Me neither.
Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee in Family Abuse Scandal
Delete "in".
Post by CDB
Privileged Saudi Teen Jumps Canada Refugee Queue
(Full Frontal Face-Pix inside)
Ottawa Airport Freedom Hugs for Fleeing Saudi Beauty
Those are good.
Agreed. Damned fine headlines.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 21:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Ross wrote: ...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted
headline was somehow not good enough. How would you improve
it? The only suggestion we've seen involved making it several
words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word
headline, but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or
if "Saudi woman" has to come first, then at the cost of one
word, "Saudi woman granted asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write
headlines. Urgh!
Me neither.
Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee in Family Abuse Scandal
Delete "in".
...

I'm thinking that according to Brit headline rules, it should be
more like "Family Abuse Scandal Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee."
But I could be wrong.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-01-18 14:51:45 UTC
Permalink
[Gadfly Swats Bystander]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Me neither.
Saudi Princess Canuck Refugee in Family Abuse Scandal
Delete "in".
My first impulse was to reply that that would shift the emphasis away
from her reception here to her treatment by her former family (which was
probably liberal by local standards, since she got away). Then I gave
myself a shake.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Privileged Saudi Teen Jumps Canada Refugee Queue (Full Frontal
Face-Pix inside)
Ottawa Airport Freedom Hugs for Fleeing Saudi Beauty
Those are good.
Crippled Badger in Gambolling Shocker.

Not so very crippled, in fact. I made it out to Southam Hall last night
for a very good performance of "Trevor Pinnock's 'Saint Matthew Passion'".

We (my friend and I) learned to love him when he was resident here, and
it was a pleasure to see him again. The performance was excellent, as
were all the performers, in every aspect that I am capable of judging.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-16 18:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write headlines.
Urgh!
Gosh. Very perceptive of you. I bet most of the people here thought I
earned my living writing headlines for The Sun.
--
athel
Snidely
2019-01-17 13:38:20 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, 16 January 2019 08:12:14 UTC, pretty near perzackly,
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Well it's pretty clear you've never been called on to write headlines.
Urgh!
Gosh. Very perceptive of you. I bet most of the people here thought I earned
my living writing headlines for The Sun.
Around here, "don't quit your day job"

/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 14:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-16 18:22:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:11:19 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
AFAIK it is different in the UK. In the newspapers I'm familiar with
quoted material in headlines is put in quotation marks. Sometimes the
material in quotation marks is a paraphrase of what someone has said.

A few days ago:
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/752942/world-war-3-usa-russia-hypersonic-missile-china-avangard

US missile defences 'simply NO MATCH' for Russia's terrifying
HYPERSONIC missiles

US MISSILE defence systems are “simply incapable” of stopping the
latest generation of Russian hypersonic missiles, a retired general
and chief of staff has warned.

Major General Howard “Dallas” Thompson, former Chief of Staff at US
Northern Command in Ohio, ...
Thompson writes: “The stark reality is that our current missile
** defence systems, as well as our operational mindset, are simply
** incapable versus this threat.

An article in The Times (of London) today is headlined:

Exodus of civil servants ‘leaves vital policies in jeopardy’

That is quoting from a report by the Institute for Government, a think
tank.

Another is:

PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’

That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that "the
wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship ceremonies is
disrespectful and must be stamped out".

He, Scott Morrison, has been criticised with some people calling his
suggestion un-Australian. One critic has been more direct:

[the mayor of the coastal town of Geraldton in Western Australia]
Shane Van Styn said the dress code plan was out of step with the
relaxed spirit of the Australian summer and Mr Morrison should
“bugger off”.

This headline does not use the colon to introduce quoted material:

Destination dismay: chasing a curse with Newcastle fans in the
FA Cup

Neither does this:
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/753785/victoria-beckham-david-beckham-dr-barbara-sturm-facemask

BLEEDIN' HELL: Victoria Beckham uses £1200 moisturiser - made from
her own BLOOD
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 19:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 06:11:19 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
AFAIK it is different in the UK. In the newspapers I'm familiar with
quoted material in headlines is put in quotation marks. Sometimes the
material in quotation marks is a paraphrase of what someone has said.
The below aren't the same thing. They can't be interpreted as the defenses
saying "simply NO MATCH."
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/752942/world-war-3-usa-russia-hypersonic-missile-china-avangard
US missile defences 'simply NO MATCH' for Russia's terrifying
HYPERSONIC missiles
US MISSILE defence systems are “simply incapable” of stopping the
latest generation of Russian hypersonic missiles, a retired general
and chief of staff has warned.
Major General Howard “Dallas” Thompson, former Chief of Staff at US
Northern Command in Ohio, ...
Thompson writes: “The stark reality is that our current missile
** defence systems, as well as our operational mindset, are simply
** incapable versus this threat.
Exodus of civil servants ‘leaves vital policies in jeopardy’
Ditto.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
That is quoting from a report by the Institute for Government, a think
tank.
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
Ditto. Person quoted isn't even named.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that "the
wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship ceremonies is
disrespectful and must be stamped out".
He, Scott Morrison, has been criticised with some people calling his
[the mayor of the coastal town of Geraldton in Western Australia]
Shane Van Styn said the dress code plan was out of step with the
relaxed spirit of the Australian summer and Mr Morrison should
“bugger off”.
Nor did I say that US practice does.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Destination dismay: chasing a curse with Newcastle fans in the
FA Cup
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/753785/victoria-beckham-david-beckham-dr-barbara-sturm-facemask
BLEEDIN' HELL: Victoria Beckham uses £1200 moisturiser - made from
her own BLOOD
Trump: African nations "shithouse countries"

see the difference?

Turns out NPR allowed the broadcast, and the saying, of That Word for
exactly one day after it was uttered. *Wait Wait Don't Tell Me* lamented
that it was said the very day that Robert Siegel, the voice of Morning
Edition for a very long time, retired; so they offered him the opportunity
to say the quote. When that skit was repeated in a "best of 2018" clip
show the other week, the word was bleeped.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-17 04:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that "the
wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship ceremonies is
disrespectful and must be stamped out".
He, Scott Morrison, has been criticised with some people calling his
[the mayor of the coastal town of Geraldton in Western Australia]
Shane Van Styn said the dress code plan was out of step with the
relaxed spirit of the Australian summer and Mr Morrison should
“bugger off”.
Digressing temporarily from the headline issue: the background to this
is that Australia Day, coming up next week, commemorates the arrival of
the first (mostly involuntary) migrants from England in 1788. Indigenous
groups are claiming that we shouldn't celebrate a national holiday on
what they call Invasion Day, and there has been a call from some people
to move the date. Some local councils have responded that they won't
hold citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day until the date is changed.

ScoMo has responded by threatening those councils with dire punishments
if they don't hold the citizenship ceremonies. The question of a dress
code is a minor side issue.

Most of us believe that this is a short-term battle, because ScoMo will
most likely be out of office in a few months.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-01-17 09:35:57 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that "the
wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship ceremonies is
disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for such
footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Post by Peter Moylan
He, Scott Morrison, has been criticised with some people calling his
[the mayor of the coastal town of Geraldton in Western Australia]
Shane Van Styn said the dress code plan was out of step with the
relaxed spirit of the Australian summer and Mr Morrison should
“bugger off”.
Digressing temporarily from the headline issue: the background to this
is that Australia Day, coming up next week, commemorates the arrival of
the first (mostly involuntary) migrants from England in 1788.
Indigenous
Post by Peter Moylan
groups are claiming that we shouldn't celebrate a national holiday on
what they call Invasion Day, and there has been a call from some people
to move the date. Some local councils have responded that they won't
hold citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day until the date is changed.
ScoMo has responded by threatening those councils with dire punishments
if they don't hold the citizenship ceremonies. The question of a dress
code is a minor side issue.
Most of us believe that this is a short-term battle, because ScoMo will
most likely be out of office in a few months.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-17 10:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that
"the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship
ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for such
footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal enough
for reporters to provide translations.

Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a reference
to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-01-17 10:23:30 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:13:15 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that
"the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship
ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for such
footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal enough
for reporters to provide translations.
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a reference
to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
musika
2019-01-17 11:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:13:15 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement
that "the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at
citizenship ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped
out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for
such footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal
enough
Post by Peter Moylan
for reporters to provide translations.
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a
reference to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
Perhapth we should all have a thing-thong.
--
Ray
UK
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-17 19:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
Perhapth we should all have a thing-thong.
Just a thong at twilight?

(bit too chilly to do that here)
--
Sam Plusnet
bill van
2019-01-17 19:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:13:15 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement
that "the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at
citizenship ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped
out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for
such footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal
enough
Post by Peter Moylan
for reporters to provide translations.
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a
reference to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
Perhapth we should all have a thing-thong.
Sounds more like a thong-thing to me.

bill
Peter Moylan
2019-01-17 11:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:13:15 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that
"the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship
ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for
such footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal
enough for reporters to provide translations.
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a
reference to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
Look what they've done to my thong, Ma.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-17 14:16:59 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:23:30 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:13:15 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that
"the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship
ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for such
footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal
enough
Post by Peter Moylan
for reporters to provide translations.
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a reference
to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
thing, thong, thung.
sing, song, sung.
wring, wrong, wrung.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Paul Wolff
2019-01-19 00:33:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:23:30 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
thing, thong, thung.
sing, song, sung.
wring, wrong, wrung.
I'm sure that was almost in 'Hair'.

Singing a song
Humming a song
Singing a song
Loving a song
Laughing a song
Singing a song
Sing the song
Song song song sing
Sing sing sing sing song
--
Paul
RHDraney
2019-01-19 05:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:23:30 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
thing, thong, thung.
sing, song, sung.
wring, wrong, wrung.
I'm sure that was almost in 'Hair'.
Singing a song
Humming a song
Singing a song
Loving a song
Laughing a song
Singing a song
Sing the song
Song song song sing
Sing sing sing sing song
Granted, that was the same number that included the lines "gliddy glup
gloopy, nibby nabby noopy la la la lo lo"....r
Paul Wolff
2019-01-19 19:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHDraney
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 10:23:30 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I just wanted to talk about thongs. I've got this thing about them.
thing, thong, thung.
sing, song, sung.
wring, wrong, wrung.
I'm sure that was almost in 'Hair'.
Singing a song
Humming a song
Singing a song
Loving a song
Laughing a song
Singing a song
Sing the song
Song song song sing
Sing sing sing sing song
Granted, that was the same number that included the lines "gliddy glup
gloopy, nibby nabby noopy la la la lo lo"....r
It's sometimes very clear why the chorus of a song is called "refrain".
--
Paul
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-17 14:13:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:13:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 04:58:54 GMT, Peter Moylan
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that
"the wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship
ceremonies is disrespectful and must be stamped out".
I'm given to understand, m'lud, that the Awe-straalian name for such
footwear is "thongs". (Not briefs)
Peter D was no doubt quoting some English news organ. It's normal enough
for reporters to provide translations.
Yes. And I did wonder whether the original was "thongs".
Post by Peter Moylan
Had it been in an Australian newspaper, it would have been a reference
to the Prime Minister's policy flip-flops.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-17 17:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
PM’s call to ban flip-flops is ‘un-Australian’
That refers to the Australian Prime Minister's statement that "the
wearing of flip-flops and beach shorts at citizenship ceremonies is
disrespectful and must be stamped out".
He, Scott Morrison, has been criticised with some people calling his
[the mayor of the coastal town of Geraldton in Western Australia]
Shane Van Styn said the dress code plan was out of step with the
relaxed spirit of the Australian summer and Mr Morrison should
“bugger off”.
Digressing temporarily from the headline issue: the background to this
is that Australia Day, coming up next week, commemorates the arrival of
the first (mostly involuntary) migrants from England in 1788. Indigenous
groups are claiming that we shouldn't celebrate a national holiday on
what they call Invasion Day, and there has been a call from some people
to move the date. Some local councils have responded that they won't
hold citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day until the date is changed.
A number of states observe "Indigenous Peoples Day" instead of "Columbus
Day" on the October 12 holiday (which is one of the Federal holidays that
was shifted to a nearby Monday).

OTOH, some Southern states do not observe Martin Luther King Day. They
observe "Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day." (Davis was the
president of the Confederate States of America for almost all of its
existence; he had been a senator from Tennessee.)
Post by Peter Moylan
ScoMo has responded by threatening those councils with dire punishments
if they don't hold the citizenship ceremonies. The question of a dress
code is a minor side issue.
Most of us believe that this is a short-term battle, because ScoMo will
most likely be out of office in a few months.
On a similar matter, a Federal judge has ruled that the 2020 Census form
canNOT include the "is this person a citizen" question -- but not on the
merits, rather because the Secretary of Commerce, the beleaguered Wilbur
Ross, did not follow the proper procedure for adding a question to the
census.
Tony Cooper
2019-01-18 04:19:06 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:17:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
OTOH, some Southern states do not observe Martin Luther King Day. They
observe "Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day." (Davis was the
president of the Confederate States of America for almost all of its
existence; he had been a senator from Tennessee.)
You've stumped me. I am unable to find any US state that observes
"Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day".

I do find that Alabama and Mississippi observe the birthdays of Robert
E. Lee and Martin Luther King Jr on the same day. Arkansas did until
2017, but not now.

Alabama celebrates the birthday of Jefferson Davis on the first Monday
in June. Mississippi combines Memorial Day and Jefferson Davis' birth
on the last Monday in May. These make sense, date-wise, since Lee was
born on January 19th and Davis was born on June 3rd.

Are there some Southern states that I'm not aware of?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-18 05:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:17:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
OTOH, some Southern states do not observe Martin Luther King Day. They
observe "Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day." (Davis was the
president of the Confederate States of America for almost all of its
existence; he had been a senator from Tennessee.)
You've stumped me. I am unable to find any US state that observes
"Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day".
I do find that Alabama and Mississippi observe the birthdays of Robert
E. Lee and Martin Luther King Jr on the same day. Arkansas did until
2017, but not now.
Same difference. It does not fucking matter which beloved icon or idol
they use to usurp Dr. King's position.
Post by Tony Cooper
Alabama celebrates the birthday of Jefferson Davis on the first Monday
in June. Mississippi combines Memorial Day and Jefferson Davis' birth
on the last Monday in May. These make sense, date-wise, since Lee was
born on January 19th and Davis was born on June 3rd.
Are there some Southern states that I'm not aware of?
There are some Southern attitudes that apparently don't bother you.
Tony Cooper
2019-01-18 15:11:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:59:54 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:17:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
OTOH, some Southern states do not observe Martin Luther King Day. They
observe "Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day." (Davis was the
president of the Confederate States of America for almost all of its
existence; he had been a senator from Tennessee.)
You've stumped me. I am unable to find any US state that observes
"Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day".
I do find that Alabama and Mississippi observe the birthdays of Robert
E. Lee and Martin Luther King Jr on the same day. Arkansas did until
2017, but not now.
Same difference. It does not fucking matter which beloved icon or idol
they use to usurp Dr. King's position.
Yes...accuracy does not fucking matter to PTD. We've seen a lot of
that from you.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Alabama celebrates the birthday of Jefferson Davis on the first Monday
in June. Mississippi combines Memorial Day and Jefferson Davis' birth
on the last Monday in May. These make sense, date-wise, since Lee was
born on January 19th and Davis was born on June 3rd.
Are there some Southern states that I'm not aware of?
There are some Southern attitudes that apparently don't bother you.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-18 17:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 21:59:54 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:17:24 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
OTOH, some Southern states do not observe Martin Luther King Day. They
observe "Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day." (Davis was the
president of the Confederate States of America for almost all of its
existence; he had been a senator from Tennessee.)
You've stumped me. I am unable to find any US state that observes
"Jefferson Davis and Martin Luther King Day".
I do find that Alabama and Mississippi observe the birthdays of Robert
E. Lee and Martin Luther King Jr on the same day. Arkansas did until
2017, but not now.
Same difference. It does not fucking matter which beloved icon or idol
they use to usurp Dr. King's position.
Yes...accuracy does not fucking matter to PTD. We've seen a lot of
that from you.
Ra-a-a-a-a-a-ight, ignore the substantive point to pick a Confederate nit.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
Alabama celebrates the birthday of Jefferson Davis on the first Monday
in June. Mississippi combines Memorial Day and Jefferson Davis' birth
on the last Monday in May. These make sense, date-wise, since Lee was
born on January 19th and Davis was born on June 3rd.
Are there some Southern states that I'm not aware of?
There are some Southern attitudes that apparently don't bother you.
--
Tony Cooper - Biker Klansman fully assimilated to Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-16 18:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
Brexit: MPs debate no-confidence motion after May's deal defeat
Is your position that someone called Brexit said "MPs debate
no-confidence motion after May's deal defeat"?
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 19:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
Hi, Skitt!
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Brexit: MPs debate no-confidence motion after May's deal defeat
Is your position that someone called Brexit said "MPs debate
no-confidence motion after May's deal defeat"?
Very good. _You_ understood what I said. US headlines just don't use
< noun colon > to introduce topics, only speakers.

That example could perhaps be done hierarchically:

BREXIT DEAL DEFEAT

No-confidence motion ensues

or something like that. (I think Guardian readers would know "ensue.")
Quinn C
2019-01-16 19:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
I think the dominant NAm style for quotes is the other way round:

Canada grants asylum: Saudi woman
--
Was den Juengeren fehlt, sind keine Botschaften, es ist der Sinn
fuer Zusammenhaenge. [Young people aren't short of messages, but
of a sense for interconnections.]
-- Helen Feng im Zeit-Interview
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 19:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
But we come back to the assumption that the original quoted headline was
somehow not good enough. How would you improve it? The only suggestion
we've seen involved making it several words longer.
Not that there's anything wrong with a seven- or eight-word headline,
but how about "Canada grants Saudi woman asylum"? Or if "Saudi woman"
has to come first, then at the cost of one word, "Saudi woman granted
asylum in Canada".
Or even "Saudi woman: Canada grants asylum"
That indicates that the woman said what follows the colon. Is it different
Over There?
Canada grants asylum: Saudi woman
That doesn't look right, but it still says that that's something she
announced. < Trudeau: Canada Grants Asylum > perhaps indicates that his
announcement was surprising; < Canada Grants Asylum: Trudeau > might
simply show that he was reporting a decision by the Cabinet or Parliament
or something.
Lewis
2019-01-16 13:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
What job?
The job of delivering readers to the content.
But (according to your view), the readers will not be "delivered"
if the headline isn't zippy enough. If they're reading the newspaper,
they may read the headline, but they won't read that story. They've
been "delivered" as far as buying the paper, but not by that headline.
(We're assuming it's not on the front page.)
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy the
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.

The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes you
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.

These are, in no way, similar.
Post by Ross
Yah, but surely the traffic will consist largely of people who know they
can find timely and accurate news there, not those sucked in by some random
exciting headline.
There is a website in the US called Buzzfeed. It is most famous for the
"listicle" (Ten things that will surprise you about flamingos, number 7
will shock you!) that leads to a multi-page list of idiocy.

Far less people know Buzzfeed as an actual news source, though it is.

The mouth-breathers reading the listicle crap pay for the rest of the
site, including all the reporters for the news portion of the site.

Buzzfeed cares more about the clicks because those pay the bills, just
like newspapers in the past cared most about circulation. Maybe ethics,
depending on the newspaper.
--
Hudd: 'I've just done this radio show where I never met any of the other
actors and I didn't understand what any of it was about' Moore: 'Ah, yes
I expect that's the thing I'm in.'
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 14:13:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy the
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes you
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.

The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Quinn C
2019-01-16 19:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy the
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes you
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.

For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
--
Are you sure your sanity chip is fully screwed in?
-- Kryten to Rimmer (Red Dwarf)
Tony Cooper
2019-01-16 21:24:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy the
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes you
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap. The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50. The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat". According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.

I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-01-16 21:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy the
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes you
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap. The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50. The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat". According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
bill van
2019-01-17 01:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy
the
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes
you
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap. The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50. The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat". According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
A dog's Brexit, in other words.

bill
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-17 02:56:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy
the
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes
you
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap.  The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50.  The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat".  According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
Yep. I would much rather watch the disaster going on in US government
than focus on the horror at home.
--
Sam Plusnet
bill van
2019-01-17 05:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by bill van
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy
the
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes
you
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap.  The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50.  The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat".  According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
Yep. I would much rather watch the disaster going on in US government
than focus on the horror at home.
I don't know about that. Brexit is capable of disrupting trade and
travel with continental Europe
and damage the economy with the continent for years to come, but Trump
endangers the entire planet.

bill
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-17 19:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by bill van
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
Yep.  I would much rather watch the disaster going on in US government
than focus on the horror at home.
I don't know about that. Brexit is capable of disrupting trade and
travel with continental Europe
and damage  the economy with the continent for years to come, but Trump
endangers the entire planet.
Once Trump steps down in favour of Putin, things will settle down.
--
Sam Plusnet
Lewis
2019-01-17 10:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy
the
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes
you
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap. The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50. The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat". According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
Well done.
--
A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear
that only the other one snores.
bill van
2019-01-17 19:35:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by bill van
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
Well done.
Full disclosure: I did come up with it all by myself. Then I checked
the Web and found that others were there before me.

bill
Snidely
2019-01-17 13:42:27 UTC
Permalink
bill van suggested that ...
Post by bill van
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:12:09 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
The purpose of a headline in a newspaper is to get someone to buy
the
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
paper. It doesn't matter if anyone reads that paper or not.
The purpose of a headline on a website, especially one that makes
you
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Lewis
click through to a story, is to generate traffic.
These are, in no way, similar.
??? They are, in every way, almost identical.
The purpose is to generate revenue for the headline provider.
Lewis pointed out an important difference, but didn't explain it well.
For a newspaper, one or two headlines will hopefully make a sale on the
whole paper - i.e. a dollar or so. On the Internet, one headline makes
a sale for one article - probably less than a cent worth. One can hope
that people stay once they're on the site, but there's no guarantee, so
the other headlines on the site better be interesting as well.
Evidently Toronto newspapers are cheap. The Orlando Sentinel weekday
newspapers are $2.50. The front page headline today is "Brexit deal
in tatters after defeat". According to the article, Theresa May is
also in tatters.
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
It hasn't worked; I predict stalemate until Brexit-day. Then a last-
minute deal/compromise/extension. & repeat.
A dog's Brexit, in other words.
bill
This post has earned a place in the weekly summary!

/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
Peter Moylan
2019-01-17 05:15:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.

If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2019-01-17 05:35:25 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:15:44 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
That is not an inconsiderable downside with Mike Pence in the wings.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2019-01-17 06:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
There's one exception, which is if the vice-presidency is vacant at the
same time -- that is, the sitting VP died, resigned, or was impeached,
and the Senate has not confirmed the President's nominated replacement.

In that case the next two places in line are the Speaker of the House of
Representatives and the president pro tempora of the Senate. Either of
them might be, and one currently is, from a different party.

However, there seems to be no reason to consider this scenario at all
likely at present.
--
Mark Brader "People with whole brains, however, dispute
Toronto this claim, and are generally more articulate
***@vex.net in expressing their views." -- Gary Larson

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-17 14:32:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:15:44 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
The vote of no confidence held in the UK House of Commons yesterday was
not a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister as an individual. The
motion was:

"That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government."

That is the Prime Minister and all other Ministers as a unit.
Post by Peter Moylan
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-17 16:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 16:15:44 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
The vote of no confidence held in the UK House of Commons yesterday was
not a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister as an individual. The
"That this House has no confidence in Her Majesty’s Government."
That is the Prime Minister and all other Ministers as a unit.
Indeed. The motion that Corbyn should have tabled last week but messed
up adding yet more evidence of his incompetence.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-17 17:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
Not "someone." The line of succession is clearly laid out down through somewhere around 20 individuals. It's not like the mess in the UK that
ended them up with Mrs May.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-17 23:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
Not "someone." The line of succession is clearly laid out down through somewhere around 20 individuals. It's not like the mess in the UK that
ended them up with Mrs May.
I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated to get
through to you but here's another go; there is no equivalence
between the US Presidency and the UK Prime Ministership.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-17 23:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
Not "someone." The line of succession is clearly laid out down through somewhere around 20 individuals. It's not like the mess in the UK that
ended them up with Mrs May.
I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated to get
through to you but here's another go; there is no equivalence
between the US Presidency and the UK Prime Ministership.
What in my statement leads you to suppose I imagine any such thing?
It was PM who suggested that "someone" would be the next president,
the way "someone" will be the next PM.

In fact it's become fashionable for a president to appoint a cabinet
secretary or two from the other party.
RHDraney
2019-01-18 20:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What in my statement leads you to suppose I imagine any such thing?
It was PM who suggested that "someone" would be the next president,
the way "someone" will be the next PM.
In fact it's become fashionable for a president to appoint a cabinet
secretary or two from the other party.
A Democrat president might do that sort of thing, but a Republican
president?...never!...

At the state level, Arizona has no office of lieutenant governor, so
when the governor leaves office before end-of-term for any reason, the
secretary of state takes over the post...since that's a separate office,
filled in a separate election with no "running mate" connection, more
often than not it's also someone from the opposing party...(and
Arizona's governors are famous for leaving office early; we haven't had
anyone both enter and leave that position via the normal electoral
process since 1975)....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-18 21:07:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What in my statement leads you to suppose I imagine any such thing?
It was PM who suggested that "someone" would be the next president,
the way "someone" will be the next PM.
In fact it's become fashionable for a president to appoint a cabinet
secretary or two from the other party.
A Democrat president might do that sort of thing, but a Republican
president?...never!...
Bush 43 tried to make a senator (Spencer Abraham?) the Secretary of
something-or-other -- which would have just happened to have changed
the party adherence from 51-49 to 50-50 (his successor would be appointed
by a republican governor). The senator declined the honor.

Remember when they confirmed the Secretary of Education before the
Attorney General? Because without Jeff Sessions, she wouldn't have
been approved?

What I neglected to point out in my reply to PM, which specified "of the
same party," again as if it were the UK, is that at the moment, the
second in line for the presidency is a Democrat. The Speaker of the House.
Post by RHDraney
At the state level, Arizona has no office of lieutenant governor, so
when the governor leaves office before end-of-term for any reason, the
secretary of state takes over the post...since that's a separate office,
filled in a separate election with no "running mate" connection, more
often than not it's also someone from the opposing party...(and
Arizona's governors are famous for leaving office early; we haven't had
anyone both enter and leave that position via the normal electoral
process since 1975)....r
Yes, well, Arizona.
RHDraney
2019-01-19 06:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What I neglected to point out in my reply to PM, which specified "of the
same party," again as if it were the UK, is that at the moment, the
second in line for the presidency is a Democrat. The Speaker of the House.
Post by RHDraney
At the state level, Arizona has no office of lieutenant governor, so
when the governor leaves office before end-of-term for any reason, the
secretary of state takes over the post...since that's a separate office,
filled in a separate election with no "running mate" connection, more
often than not it's also someone from the opposing party...(and
Arizona's governors are famous for leaving office early; we haven't had
anyone both enter and leave that position via the normal electoral
process since 1975)....r
Yes, well, Arizona.
And yet, Arizona's constitution does also require the governor, when a
Senator needs to be replaced as was the case following the recent death
of John McCain, to appoint a member of the same party as the original
office-holder...that's why Republican Doug Ducey was able to install
another Republican and not upset the party balance in the US Senate and
still not create a backlash among the electorate....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-19 15:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
What I neglected to point out in my reply to PM, which specified "of the
same party," again as if it were the UK, is that at the moment, the
second in line for the presidency is a Democrat. The Speaker of the House.
Post by RHDraney
At the state level, Arizona has no office of lieutenant governor, so
when the governor leaves office before end-of-term for any reason, the
secretary of state takes over the post...since that's a separate office,
filled in a separate election with no "running mate" connection, more
often than not it's also someone from the opposing party...(and
Arizona's governors are famous for leaving office early; we haven't had
anyone both enter and leave that position via the normal electoral
process since 1975)....r
Yes, well, Arizona.
And yet, Arizona's constitution does also require the governor, when a
Senator needs to be replaced as was the case following the recent death
of John McCain, to appoint a member of the same party as the original
office-holder...that's why Republican Doug Ducey was able to install
another Republican and not upset the party balance in the US Senate and
still not create a backlash among the electorate....r
But Ducey would have had no inclination to appoint a Democrat.

And you've ended up with one of each now, haven't you?
RHDraney
2019-01-19 22:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RHDraney
And yet, Arizona's constitution does also require the governor, when a
Senator needs to be replaced as was the case following the recent death
of John McCain, to appoint a member of the same party as the original
office-holder...that's why Republican Doug Ducey was able to install
another Republican and not upset the party balance in the US Senate and
still not create a backlash among the electorate....r
But Ducey would have had no inclination to appoint a Democrat.
And you've ended up with one of each now, haven't you?
For the moment...there's a Democrat who got elected to her seat fair and
square, and the Republican she beat who got appointed to the other until
the remainder of McCain's term runs out in 2020, at which point someone
else, party unknown, will replace her (and the House seats the current
senators vacated to run in last year's election are both already in
Democratic hands)....

ObAUE: is having a seat in one's hands too mixed a metaphor?...r

Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-18 00:02:53 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 09:19:07 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
I am not one to offer comparisons between the government of this
country and the government of the UK, but we are at a point here in
the US that some of us look longingly at the UK "vote of no
confidence" and the ability throw out the leadership.
If a UK Prime Minister loses a vote of no confidence, there could be a
general election and possibly a change of government.
If a US president loses an impeachment move, he is replaced by someone
from the same party, who might be worse than the one you just got rid of.
Not "someone." The line of succession is clearly laid out down through somewhere around 20 individuals. It's not like the mess in the UK that
ended them up with Mrs May.
That "mess" was a democratic choice by her fellow Conservative MPs.

How could democracy create a mess?

(No need to answer that question)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 15:36:26 UTC
Permalink
On 1/16/19 6:30 AM, Lewis wrote:
...
Post by Lewis
There is a website in the US called Buzzfeed. It is most famous for the
"listicle" (Ten things that will surprise you about flamingos, number 7
will shock you!)
I assume number 7 is that their closest relatives are believed to be grebes.
Post by Lewis
that leads to a multi-page list of idiocy.
Just because you're prejudiced against birds.
Post by Lewis
Far less people know Buzzfeed as an actual news source, though it is.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
Lewis
2019-01-16 23:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Lewis
There is a website in the US called Buzzfeed. It is most famous for the
"listicle" (Ten things that will surprise you about flamingos, number 7
will shock you!)
I assume number 7 is that their closest relatives are believed to be grebes.
That would fit.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
that leads to a multi-page list of idiocy.
Just because you're prejudiced against birds.
Evil murderous dinosaurs, one and all.
--
'It must have been Fate that brought you here,' said Twoflower. 'Yes,
it's the sort of thing he likes to do,' said Rincewind.
Quinn C
2019-01-17 19:14:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Lewis
There is a website in the US called Buzzfeed. It is most famous for the
"listicle" (Ten things that will surprise you about flamingos, number 7
will shock you!)
I assume number 7 is that their closest relatives are believed to be grebes.
That would fit.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
that leads to a multi-page list of idiocy.
Just because you're prejudiced against birds.
Evil murderous dinosaurs, one and all.

--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Quinn C
2019-01-15 22:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ross
Post by Sam Plusnet
The headline was on the BBC News website and not a printed newspaper, I
think that makes a difference.
OK, but what difference? I'm not sure what you or Quinn are suggesting
at this point. Should it have been more exciting? How? They could have
mentioned her name, but I suspect they judged it was not yet familiar
enough.
In a newspaper, if you can read the headline the article is right there
in front of you. Job done.
On the website's main page, all you can see is the headline.
Consequently you need to take action in order to get to the body of the
text.
Hence the headline must generate in you the desire to take that action.
In my case, the headlines I quoted were supposed to incite me to play a
30 minute radio program. Admittedly, I can tap to see a slightly longer
text, in this case:

| Trudeau says Saudi teenager who fled her family is welcome in Canada
| also: the head of Japan's Olympic Committee under corruption
| investigation and: the man who posted his cat.

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06xwp3n>

The last sentence made me wonder in which newsgroup he posted it.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
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