Discussion:
'Good' and 'Bad' English
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occam
2021-04-27 07:44:05 UTC
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"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."

This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.

This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.

The article also touches on TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign
Language), in case you have an axe to grind on that front.

Source:

TinyURL: tinyurl.com/duv4pa8

OR

<https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/04/25/989765565/tower-of-babble-non-native-speakers-navigate-the-world-of-good-and-bad-english?t=1619508170130>
bert
2021-04-27 08:53:18 UTC
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Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
That’s surely true for other languages, not just for English, and it shouldn’t have taken decades of research to establish it. My daughter and son-in-law live in France, where he works in a multi-national project. When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and their families, we can understand their French much more easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-04-27 09:22:16 UTC
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Post by bert
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a>
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down.">> This
sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is>
spoke around the world.>> This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU
context. I have heard> nonnative English speakers express difficulty in
understanding native> (BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such
problems when speaking> perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or
Danish person.
That’s surely true for other languages, not just for English, and it
shouldn’t have taken decades of research to establish it.
It's a trivial observation made by everyone who has lived in a
multilingual environment.
Post by bert
My daughter and son-in-law live in France, where he works in a
multi-national project. When we visit, and meet with his non-French
colleagues and their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-27 14:27:34 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by bert
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a>
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down.">> This
sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is>
spoke around the world.>> This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU
context. I have heard> nonnative English speakers express difficulty in
understanding native> (BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such
problems when speaking> perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or
Danish person.
That’s surely true for other languages, not just for English, and it
shouldn’t have taken decades of research to establish it.
It probably didn't. Science stories get on the radio because a university
sends out a press release. (This topic falls under "Communication
studies" rather than Linguistics.)
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's a trivial observation made by everyone who has lived in a
multilingual environment.
Which is not the norm in most Anglophone environments.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by bert
My daughter and son-in-law live in France, where he works in a
multi-national project. When we visit, and meet with his non-French
colleagues and their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
Stefan Ram
2021-04-27 16:07:16 UTC
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Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
Ken Blake
2021-04-27 16:41:22 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
In my experience, if I know a little of some language, it's always
easier to read the language (in sub-titles, newspapers, books, etc.)
than to hear it spoken and understand it That's goes for all languages,
but especially French, because of its liaison.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2021-04-27 17:41:54 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
On my first visit to France, the only long conversation I had in French
was with a Vietnamese person.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
In my experience, if I know a little of some language, it's always
easier to read the language (in sub-titles, newspapers, books, etc.)
than to hear it spoken and understand it That's goes for all languages,
but especially French, because of its liaison.
If you know Latin, or other Romance languages, or even English, many
French words are much easier to recognize in the written form.

Because I learned French in a written-centric way, it's quite possible
that I understand some spoken words only because I quickly mentally
associate them with their written version, supplying all those
non-pronounced characters that help me dig out the meaning.
--
CW: Historical misogyny
Jbzna vf n cnve bs binevrf jvgu n uhzna orvat nggnpurq, jurernf
zna vf n uhzna orvat sheavfurq jvgu n cnve bs grfgrf.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-04-27 18:04:19 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
In my experience, if I know a little of some language, it's always
easier to read the language (in sub-titles, newspapers, books, etc.)
than to hear it spoken and understand it
Last night there was a report from India about the Covid-19 crisis at
which we heard a doctor talking about the shortage of everything in
hospitals. She was speaking, I think, English, but I couldn't
understand a word she said without the help of the voice-overs in
French.
Post by Ken Blake
That's goes for all languages, but especially French, because of its liaison.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Bebercito
2021-04-27 18:28:31 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
In my experience, if I know a little of some language, it's always
easier to read the language (in sub-titles, newspapers, books, etc.)
than to hear it spoken and understand it
Last night there was a report from India about the Covid-19 crisis at
which we heard a doctor talking about the shortage of everything in
hospitals. She was speaking, I think, English, but I couldn't
understand a word she said without the help of the voice-overs in
French.
But maybe also precisely _because_ of the voice-overs, which may
have been intrusive (as is often the case on French TV).
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
That's goes for all languages, but especially French, because of its liaison.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Quinn C
2021-04-27 22:18:51 UTC
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Post by Bebercito
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
In my experience, if I know a little of some language, it's always
easier to read the language (in sub-titles, newspapers, books, etc.)
than to hear it spoken and understand it
Last night there was a report from India about the Covid-19 crisis at
which we heard a doctor talking about the shortage of everything in
hospitals. She was speaking, I think, English, but I couldn't
understand a word she said without the help of the voice-overs in
French.
But maybe also precisely _because_ of the voice-overs, which may
have been intrusive (as is often the case on French TV).
I don't remember a voice-over in any country that was obviously intended
to let you follow the original (including even the kind of dub where one
person speaks all the roles of a TV show, common in small markets). I
always understood the voice in the background to serve just to make
clear whose words are delivered, similarly to showing an image of the
speaker on TV.

So if sometimes you can actually follow the original, I've always
considered that incidental, but I'm open to hearing otherwise from
people with inside knowledge.
--
Do not they speak false English ... that doth not speak thou to one,
and what ever he be, Father, Mother, King, or Judge, is he not a
Novice, and Unmannerly, and an Ideot, and a Fool, that speaks Your
to one, which is not to be spoken to a singular, but to many?
-- George Fox (1660)
Lewis
2021-04-27 22:54:26 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
Who do you think is speaking French in the dubbed version other than
actors?
--
Man destroys a water fountain
(One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest)
Bebercito
2021-04-28 05:22:56 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
Who do you think is speaking French in the dubbed version other than
actors?
Indeed, but translated dialogues often don't sound quite like
dialogues originally written in French. They may be less
idiomatic and therefore easier to understand for a
non-native speaker of French.
Post by Lewis
--
Man destroys a water fountain
(One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-28 14:40:21 UTC
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Post by Bebercito
Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by bert
When we visit, and meet with his non-French colleagues and
their families, we can understand their French much more
easily than we can follow any of the native speakers.
I observed that I (who speaks very little French) can
understand more French in movies dubbed in French than in
movies actually recorded with actors speaking in French.
Who do you think is speaking French in the dubbed version other than
actors?
Indeed, but translated dialogues often don't sound quite like
dialogues originally written in French. They may be less
idiomatic and therefore easier to understand for a
non-native speaker of French.
And the writers of the scripts for dubbing need to try to match
the mouth-movements of the on-screen actors, which can make
for awkwardnesses. Anthony Burgess made his living for a while
doing that job, and he writes interestingly about it in his language
book *A Mouthful of Air*.
s***@my-deja.com
2021-04-27 23:35:12 UTC
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Post by bert
Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
That’s surely true for other languages, not just for English, and it shouldn’t have taken
decades of research to establish it. My daughter and son-in-law live in France, where
he works in a multi-national project. When we visit, and meet with his non-French
colleagues and their families, we can understand their French much more easily than
we can follow any of the native speakers.
As everybody knows... *
Slower speed, smaller vocabulary...


*weak joke
J. J. Lodder
2021-04-27 09:35:41 UTC
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Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
An obvious example of too much research money floating around.
Post by occam
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
There is the age old joke about it:
I can understand the Germans when they speak English,
I can understand the Swedes when they speak English,
I can even understand the French when they speak English,
so why can't I understand the English when they speak English?

Jan
charles
2021-04-27 09:52:14 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
An obvious example of too much research money floating around.
Post by occam
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
I can understand the Germans when they speak English,
I can understand the Swedes when they speak English,
I can even understand the French when they speak English,
so why can't I understand the English when they speak English?
Jan
because English as taught to foreigners is not real English? or because
foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful different dialects in use?

Similarly SWMBO went to the south of France as a girl and when she came
home, spoke French with a regional accent and was immediately criticised
for her 'terrible French". It wasn't the French of Paris.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Jerry Friedman
2021-04-27 14:19:09 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
An obvious example of too much research money floating around.
Post by occam
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
I can understand the Germans when they speak English,
I can understand the Swedes when they speak English,
I can even understand the French when they speak English,
so why can't I understand the English when they speak English?
Jan
because English as taught to foreigners is not real English? or because
foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful different dialects in use?
...

And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-04-28 17:28:23 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:19:09 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
An obvious example of too much research money floating around.
Post by occam
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
I can understand the Germans when they speak English,
I can understand the Swedes when they speak English,
I can even understand the French when they speak English,
so why can't I understand the English when they speak English?
Jan
because English as taught to foreigners is not real English? or because
foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful different dialects in use?
...
And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
I've noticed this effect on some UK TV shows. Sometimes there are
foreign contestants on shows such as X Factor (UK) and Britain's Got
Talent.
Each spisode of such a show has an episode of a "companion" show, in
those cases "Xtra Factor" and "Britain's Got More Talent". Sometimes
contestants are interviewed on the companion shows. The interviewers are
not "serious journalists". They are unaware of what they are doing when
they use idioms and non-standard constructions. This sometimes leads to
bafflement when the interviewee is not a native speaker of English. The
interviewer is unaware that she/he has used a strange wording and should
reword what she/he has said. This is a problem even if the foreign
contestant is a competent speaker of English.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Silvano
2021-05-01 08:33:32 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
Also, among many other things, because most German, Arabic, Russian etc.
native speakers can't make much out of idioms based on cricket or baseball.
Lewis
2021-05-01 10:08:47 UTC
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Post by Silvano
Post by Jerry Friedman
And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
Also, among many other things, because most German, Arabic, Russian etc.
native speakers can't make much out of idioms based on cricket or baseball.
Learning idioms is a critical part of becoming fluent in a language.
--
Nothing is impossible for those who don't have to do it.
Quinn C
2021-05-01 16:58:53 UTC
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Post by Silvano
Post by Jerry Friedman
And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
Also, among many other things, because most German, Arabic, Russian etc.
native speakers can't make much out of idioms based on cricket or baseball.
It happens again and again that I learn to my surprise that an idiom
I've understood for decades was originally based on sports. It doesn't
matter. There's lots of idioms in my native language that I don't know
the origin of.
--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31
Ken Blake
2021-05-01 18:53:50 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
It happens again and again that I learn to my surprise that an idiom
I've understood for decades was originally based on sports.
Also on Chess (unless you consider Chess to be a sport; I don't).
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2021-05-01 19:19:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Jerry Friedman
And, I imagine, because foreigners don't get taught all the wonderful
idioms and non-standard constructions in use, or the things that are
expressed with connotations and implicatures and shared cultural
knowledge, or ways of dealing with the mistakes native speakers make
because they're not thinking as hard about their English as foreigners
do.
Also, among many other things, because most German, Arabic, Russian etc.
native speakers can't make much out of idioms based on cricket or baseball.
Half the regulars here say "You knocked that one right of of the park",
whilst the others get to their feet and raise both arms straight up.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Ken Blake
2021-04-27 16:44:13 UTC
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Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
"Decades of research show that when a native English speaker enters a
conversation among nonnative speakers, understanding goes down."
An obvious example of too much research money floating around.
Post by occam
This sentence is from an interesting NPR article about English as she is
spoke around the world.
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
I can understand the Germans when they speak English,
I can understand the Swedes when they speak English,
I can even understand the French when they speak English,
so why can't I understand the English when they speak English?
Especially if the English are from Yorkshire. I may have said it here
before, but when I saw the movie "The Full Monte," I could understand
only every third word, and that word was "fook."
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-04-27 16:03:33 UTC
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Post by occam
This finding mirrors my experiences in an EU context. I have heard
nonnative English speakers express difficulty in understanding native
(BrE) speakers, whereas they have no such problems when speaking
perfectly good English to, say, a Dutch or Danish person.
Reasons that come to my mind:

Non-native speakers with the same native language or similar
native languages might speak similar variants of English,
maybe even with some English sounds substituted by sounds
of their native language.

For example, I believe that we Germans might insert glottal
stops and often not connect words. Two Germans might use the
same (German) stress pattern for words that are similar to
German words, like "category".

Non-native speakers with different native languages still
might use less connected speech and fewer reductions.
They might use more basic vocabulary and fewer rare words,
phrasal verbs and idioms. Maybe they speak slower.

Native speakers might even use a regional pronunciation
and maybe some regional vocabulary or idioms.

Now, let me look at that article:

|let's take a holistic approach

. I think this has nothing todo with the nativity of the
language. "Holistic" is just a word of elaborated language.
When a non-native speaker has a similar level of education
in similar areas he should understand this.

|you hit it out of the park!

Yes. I think you need to learn American culture to some
extend to understand the American language. This especially
includes the education system (e.g., what's "Junior High
[school]" or a "locker" [in a school], fraternaties, boy
scouts), but also sports, especially baseball, football and
basketball, and other cultural phenomenons (like holidays,
constitution amendments, well-known texts).

|Decades of research show

When one refers to research, it's more credible to give
citations.

|the native speaker doesn't know how to do what nonnative
|speakers do naturally: Speak in ways that are accessible to
|everyone, using simple words and phrases

Yes. For a non-native speaker it is more clear which
expressions belong to the basic vocabulary.

|"intervene!" - The professor was drawing attention to
|Rodríguez's way of pronouncing the word.

Hard to form an opinion about this without knowing
how he pronounced it. I can find:

|ˌɪnɚ ˈviːn

(British: "ˌɪntəˈvin"). What can one get wrong there?
Maybe Rodríguez should just admit that he was not able
to pronounce it correctly than file a grievance?

|Version
|ˈvɝːʒ ᵊn

|Virgin
|ˈvɝːʤ ə̣n

(The "ᵊ" is a schwa that is inserted sometimes, while the
"ə̣" [my ad-hoc notation used above] is a schwa that is
omitted sometimes.)

So, the main difference is the [d]!

"complaint" - ok, non-native speakers sometimes do
not know the/a meaning of a word. Web:

|Vocabulary is so important; it is of much more importance
|than grammar. It is the key to communicate successfully
|with other people.

. Non-native listeners (like Yoshihiro Hattori) died because
they did not get "Freeze!".

|Hattori had limited English and was not wearing his contact
|lenses that evening, and it is possible that he did not
|understand Peairs' command to "freeze"
Web

A "complaint" about a nurse and a complaint in the sense of
an illness are related: You can complain about a nurse and
you can complain about your body.

|clearly enunciating hard "t" and "r" sounds in your speech
|makes it easier for nonnative English speakers to
|understand you

I reject the notion that native speakers should in any way
adapt to non-native speakers. Except maybe, in some cases,
for native speakers who need to routinely communicate with
non-native speakers as a part of their job.

|Please do the needful!

Is this Indian English? Web:

|"Please do the needful" sounds awkward, overly formal, even
|archaic.

. Not recommended!

"Good English", to me, is whatever variant of English I have
chosen to learn (i.e., American English with a General American
accent). "Bad English" is every other variant of English, like,
in my case, British, German or Indian English.
Stefan Ram
2021-04-27 16:18:22 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
includes the education system (e.g., what's "Junior High
It seems to be common to have a Science Fair Project
involving a vulcano made with baking soda and vinegar.
Stefan Ram
2021-04-27 17:17:36 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
Yes. I think you need to learn American culture to some
extend to understand the American language.
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack,
the game says,

|Looks like you are back in Kansas.

. It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
Mark Brader
2021-04-27 20:55:14 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack,
the game says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz",
Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic, not by waking up.
--
Mark Brader | Plan B is:
Toronto | "Try Plan A again; if this fails, try Plan B".
***@vex.net | --Michael Wares
Peter T. Daniels
2021-04-27 21:28:43 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack,
the game says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz",
Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic, not by waking up.
That is entirely a point-of-view matter.

In the movie, she dreams that it was magic. Does that not count?
CDB
2021-04-28 11:25:38 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack, the game
says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful Wizard
of Oz", Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic, not by
waking up.
But the reference is to the well-known line "Toto, I don't think we're
in Kansas anymore". I don't know if that was in the book (Wonderful
WoO), or only in the movie (WoO).
--
Has anybody mentioned recently that "Toto" is a baby-name for "Dorothy"?
Mark Brader
2021-04-28 18:13:03 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack, the game
says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful Wizard
of Oz", Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic, not by
waking up.
But the reference is to the well-known line "Toto, I don't think we're
in Kansas anymore".
How so? From the above, it looks to me like a reference to the end of
the movie.
Post by CDB
I don't know if that was in the book (Wonderful WoO), or only in the
movie (WoO).
The book can be found at Project Gutenberg. That line isn't in it.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Neither a follower nor a leader be."
***@vex.net --Steve Summit (after Shakespeare)

My text in this article is in the public domain.
CDB
2021-04-28 18:51:46 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack, the
game says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful
Wizard of Oz", Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic,
not by waking up.
But the reference is to the well-known line "Toto, I don't think
we're in Kansas anymore".
How so? From the above, it looks to me like a reference to the end
of the movie.
Just MO, of course. I think so because the line (from the movie, as I
now know) is often quoted, while the ending of the story has had much
less popular attention.

In fact, looking around, that line is popular enough to be often
misquoted, as I did above. Searching on the line, right or
wrong, gets you a whole raft of hits.

<https://www.aol.com/article/2014/02/06/these-are-the-movie-quotes-everyone-gets-wrong/20824679/>
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
I don't know if that was in the book (Wonderful WoO), or only in
the movie (WoO).
The book can be found at Project Gutenberg. That line isn't in it.
The movie was the source of most popular memory about the story.
Mark Brader
2021-04-28 22:41:30 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack, the
game says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful
Wizard of Oz", Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic,
not by waking up.
But the reference is to the well-known line "Toto, I don't think
we're in Kansas anymore".
How so? From the above, it looks to me like a reference to the end
of the movie.
Just MO, of course. I think so because the line (from the movie, as I
now know) is often quoted, while the ending of the story has had much
less popular attention.
But "When you stop hallucinating" and "back in Kansas" both fit the ending.

Okay, no further comment from me.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "I'd opt for Oz, myself."
***@vex.net --Buck Henry

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Lewis
2021-04-29 02:36:23 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
For another example. When you stop hallucinating in Hack, the game
says,
| Looks like you are back in Kansas.
It assumes you know The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
No, you're thinking of "The Wizard of Oz". In "The Wonderful Wizard
of Oz", Dorothy is transported back to Kansas by magic, not by
waking up.
But the reference is to the well-known line "Toto, I don't think we're
in Kansas anymore".
How so? From the above, it looks to me like a reference to the end of
the movie.
Post by CDB
I don't know if that was in the book (Wonderful WoO), or only in the
movie (WoO).
The book can be found at Project Gutenberg. That line isn't in it.
But the transition from a B&W world to one of colors is, oddly enough.
--
O is for OLIVE run through with an awl
P is for PRUE trampled flat in a brawl
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