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German pronunciation
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Peter Moylan
2021-03-19 12:00:15 UTC
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So, Nye-kon must be a AmeE thing. Nikon is Japanese, headquartered in
Japan.
Nikon = ニコン = abbreviation of 日本光学
I don't claim to be an expert in Japanese, but as I understand it,
there's no abbreviation there. Rather, they are two different methods of
writing. ニコン is Katakana, an alphabet (actually a syllabary), and
日本光学 is Kanji (Chinese characters).
I also can't comment on the accuracy of either.
I know only a handful of Japanese words, but I know the numbers. ニ is
the number two, pronounced (I think) nee. So I guess the name Nikon is
pronounced nee-kon in Japanese.
The knights who say "ni" seem to come fairly close.
As I think I said in an earlier message in this thread, I've never heard
anyone say anything but nigh-kon.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Janet
2021-03-19 12:24:04 UTC
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In article <***@4ax.com>, tonycooper214
@gmail.com says...
Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service to at
least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de Lyon, though,
and some people got off there to stretch their legs.
No-one today would stretch their legs,
Do you mean the idiom is out of date, or that the train wouldn't stop
long enough for them to?
The former.
Oh. It was the expression used in the book, but it doesn't feel
out-of-date to me. And now I'm wondering why I wanted to hyphenate
that expression in this paragraph but not in the earlier posting.
I am a bit puzzled by the suggestion that no one today would use the
expression "stretch my legs". It's exactly what would come to mind
when I drive for an extended distance and want to stop and get out of
the car for awhile.
Or on ferries, cruise ships and long-haul flights.

Janet.
Quinn C
2021-03-19 12:49:19 UTC
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Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
You're supposed to ignore the o when it comes to pronounciation.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-19 13:55:53 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
You're supposed to ignore the o when it comes to pronounciation.
Except when speaking French,
but that is less than 20 % of the Luxemburgers,

Jan
Quinn C
2021-03-19 17:20:52 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Quinn C
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
You're supposed to ignore the o when it comes to pronounciation.
Except when speaking French,
but that is less than 20 % of the Luxemburgers,
I was only talking about English. Apparently, the standard is to write
"Luxembourg", but say "Luxemburg".
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-03-19 12:49:14 UTC
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In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
répertoire /ʀepɛʀtwaʀ/
I have never properly learned French (didn't have it in school), but
my self-made rule of thumb is: "In French, the last letter of each
word is not pronounced". In this case, it would be correct.
Your rendering above seems to indicate that all three "r"s are
pronounced, including the one at the end.
Stefan Ram
2021-03-19 14:26:39 UTC
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Post by CDB
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
répertoire /ʀepɛʀtwaʀ/
I have never properly learned French (didn't have it in school), but
my self-made rule of thumb is: "In French, the last letter of each
word is not pronounced". In this case, it would be correct.
Your rendering above seems to indicate that all three "r"s are
pronounced, including the one at the end.
Yes. That is what I have taken from a dictionary; therefore,
it is not affected by my own poor knowledge of French.

Neutral pronunciation has two taxophones of /ʀ/:

the voiced uvular constrictive [ʁ], which occurs
- before a stressed vocoid,
- after a consonant (tauto- or hetero-syllabic), and
- after a pause
and

the (voiced) uvular approximant [ᴚ], which occurs
- before an unstressed vocoid,
- before a (heterosyllabic) consonant, and
- before a pause.

But sometimes the /ʀ/ is devoiced or completely voiceless.

The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for
emphasis. (There are also two other variants.)
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 15:00:46 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for
emphasis. (There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is terrible. I
always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to sometimes explain
that that was because only women had a uvula.
--
Ken
CDB
2021-03-19 18:51:33 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.

Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-19 21:11:19 UTC
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Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
It was Jerry, and what he remembered was that her name rhymed
with the name of a lady bit. Turns out there's an extraordinary number
of female names that rhyme with lady bits.
CDB
2021-03-20 12:22:42 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
It was Jerry, and what he remembered was that her name rhymed
with the name of a lady bit. Turns out there's an extraordinary number
of female names that rhyme with lady bits.
Maybe less so in these days of Vic, Sam, Mike, and Taylor.
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 21:14:04 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:11:08 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Janet
2021-03-20 13:48:12 UTC
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Permalink
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@imm.cnrs.fr
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
The uvular trill [?] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
where either term was as unrecognisable to many of their owners) as
Swahili.

Sthe case.

How many men know where and what their prostate gland is , and what
it's for. How many men refuse vasectomy because they think sterilisation
= castration.


That degree of human biology/ physiological ignorance is
attributable to prudes like Stefan who bowdlerise terms related to
genitals/sex/reproduction, like some embarrassing shameful secret.

Janet
Peter Moylan
2021-03-21 00:28:45 UTC
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Post by Janet
How many men know where and what their prostate gland is , and what
it's for. How many men refuse vasectomy because they think
sterilisation = castration.
I'd imagine most men know little about the prostate until they reach a
certain age. Then it becomes a subject of overwhelming interest.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-21 07:54:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
How many men know where and what their prostate gland is , and what
it's for. How many men refuse vasectomy because they think
sterilisation = castration.
I'd imagine most men know little about the prostate until they reach a
certain age. Then it becomes a subject of overwhelming interest.
Exactly right.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:17:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina
is ...
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 15:23:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:34:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 15:58:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.

Rey would have known.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Graham
2021-03-20 16:13:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula.  Was it Kramer
who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits?  When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Yes, but it's very vulgar!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 19:36:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula.  Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits?  When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Yes, but it's very vulgar!
It would have to be, wouldn't it?
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Graham
2021-03-20 20:06:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula.  Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits?  When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about
a girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Yes, but it's very vulgar!
It would have to be, wouldn't it?
There was a young girl from Regina
Who called in a water diviner,
To play a slick trick
With his prick as a stick,
To help her locate her vagina.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-20 16:16:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
I can think of one about a a lady from China. North Carolina also figures in
limericks.

"Regina" and "vagina" are technically an illegal rhyme in English because the
onsets of the stressed syllables are the same. That might not bother most
limerick composers.
--
Jerry Friedman
Graham
2021-03-20 16:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
I can think of one about a a lady from China. North Carolina also figures in
limericks.
"Regina" and "vagina" are technically an illegal rhyme in English because the
onsets of the stressed syllables are the same. That might not bother most
limerick composers.
But those stresses are what make many limericks "work", especially if
they are deliberately misplaced.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-20 20:57:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
I can think of one about a a lady from China. North Carolina also figures in
limericks.
"Regina" and "vagina" are technically an illegal rhyme in English because the
onsets of the stressed syllables are the same. That might not bother most
limerick composers.
But those stresses are what make many limericks "work", especially if
they are deliberately misplaced.
Sorry, linguistic term. The onset of a syllable is whatever's before the vowel.
"Regina" and "vagina" have the same soft g (/dZ/ in ASCII IPA) before the
vowel, so in formal verse that rhyme isn't allowed. All subject to correction from
the people who know.

I didn't simply say "the consonant before the stressed vowel is the same" because
that's allowed if the onset is a consonant. For instance "know" can rhyme with
"snow" and "lake" can rhyme with "flake".

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42891/stopping-by-woods-on-a-snowy-evening

You just can't rhyme "know" with "no".
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-21 00:32:22 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
You just can't rhyme "know" with "no".
As a member of the Dead Poets Society would say, "Hold my bier."
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-21 11:33:47 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
You just can't rhyme "know" with "no".
As a member of the Dead Poets Society would say, "Hold my bier."
Enough of your gallows humo[u]r.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 17:39:02 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
I can think of one about a a lady from China. North Carolina also figures in
limericks.
Nymphomaniacal Jill
tried a dynamite stick for a thrill.
They found her vagina
in north Carolina
and bits of her tits in Brazil.
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Regina" and "vagina" are technically an illegal rhyme in English because the
onsets of the stressed syllables are the same. That might not bother most
limerick composers.
--
Ken
Peter Moylan
2021-03-21 00:35:52 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Anyone with the Paris edition of /The Limerick/ would know. On my
bookshelf it sits among the important reference works.

In this case, there are two mentioned.

A hoary old monk of Regina
Once said "There is nothing diviner
Than to sit in one's cell
And let one's mind dwell
On the charms of the Virgin's vagina.

Graham has quoted the other one.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-21 07:58:13 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Anyone with the Paris edition of /The Limerick/ would know. On my
bookshelf it sits among the important reference works.
In this case, there are two mentioned.
A hoary old monk of Regina
Once said "There is nothing diviner
Than to sit in one's cell
And let one's mind dwell
On the charms of the Virgin's vagina.
Graham has quoted the other one.
Both of those are OK for non-rhotic people like you and me, and I
suppose Graham, but I fear that our rhotic friends across the great
water would object to rhyming diviner with vagina or Regina.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-21 14:52:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah? I would have said redge-EE-nah.
It rhymes with vagina. There must be a good limerick out there about a
girl from Regina.
Rey would have known.
Anyone with the Paris edition of /The Limerick/ would know. On my
bookshelf it sits among the important reference works.
In this case, there are two mentioned.
A hoary old monk of Regina
Once said "There is nothing diviner
Than to sit in one's cell
And let one's mind dwell
On the charms of the Virgin's vagina.
Graham has quoted the other one.
Both of those are OK for non-rhotic people like you and me, and I
suppose Graham, but I fear that our rhotic friends across the great
water would object to rhyming diviner with vagina or Regina.
Such rhymes are traditionally allowed in limericks and some other
contexts. We might spell it "divina".

There once was a lady from China
With strings stretched across her vagina,
And when she was laid,
The tune that she played
Was Toccata and Fugue in D Mina.
--
Jerry Friedman
Lewis
2021-03-21 05:47:46 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
The uvular trill [ʀ] is a frequent variant, frequent after
tautosyllabic consonant, especially /p, t, k/ or used for emphasis.
(There are also two other variants.)
My knowledge of French is very poor, and my French accent is
terrible. I always had trouble with the uvular trill. I used to
sometimes explain that that was because only women had a uvula.
Next time you're trying it, choose the lowest comfortable register.
I will, thanks.
Post by CDB
It's easier to produce that trill in a low voice (just as the other
trill (arriba) is easier in a high voice.
Don't know how that relates to the female uvula. Was it Kramer who had
met a charming woman but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
People who know (such as an abdominal surgeon of my acquaintance)
complain that most men and some women don't know the difference between
vulva and vagina.
It's easy to know the difference. A Vulva is a Swedish car and a vagina is ...
the capital city of Saskatchewan.
Is it pronounced redge-EYE-nah?
Ra-geyen-a
Post by Ken Blake
I would have said redge-EE-nah.
Nope.

And the football¹ team is the Saskatchewan Rough Riders. This is no accident.

¹ CFL Football
--
"He loves Nature in spite of what it did to him." - Forrest Tucker
Mark Brader
2021-03-19 21:27:54 UTC
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...but could only remember that her name had something
to do with her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as
"Mulva", thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
--
Mark Brader "A facility for quotation covers the absence
Toronto of original thought" -- Lord Peter Wimsey
***@vex.net (Philip Broadley, "Gaudy Night")
Stefan Ram
2021-03-19 21:37:26 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Paul Wolff
2021-03-19 22:01:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Thanks, because it made no sense to me in the original post. Now I can
see that it never could, because I don't know anything about Seinfeld
and seasons. What I truly think is that Seinfeld is most likely one
American TV channel's response to Frasier, or vice versa, just as
Coronation Street and Eastenders vie with (or is it against?) each other
on British TV. I'm pretty sure I have never watched a whole episode of
any of those four, always finding more interesting things to do.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
2021-03-19 23:43:58 UTC
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:01:13 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Thanks, because it made no sense to me in the original post. Now I can
see that it never could, because I don't know anything about Seinfeld
and seasons. What I truly think is that Seinfeld is most likely one
American TV channel's response to Frasier, or vice versa, just as
Coronation Street and Eastenders vie with (or is it against?) each other
on British TV.
I'm not sure you've got the right end of the stick there.

I don't see a "response" aspect in that the two shows did not run in
competition. Both were on the NBC network. They overlapped for a
few years in that Seinfeld ran from 1989 for 9 seasons and Frazier ran
from 1993 for 11 seasons, but on different nights on the same network.

Frasier was spawned by Cheers, which was also on NBC.

I don't know if Coronation Street and Eastenders vied with each other,
but - if they did - it would mean (to me) that a viewer could watch
one but not the other unless recording one.

I watched all of the Seinfeld episodes, but lost interest in Fraiser
after the first season. I have the impression that Fraiser had more
appeal to a wider market, but Seinfeld had a more dedicated
viewership. You either liked Seinfeld a lot or you disliked it
immensely, but Fraiser's audience was more in the middle of the bell
curve.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Graham
2021-03-20 00:45:35 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
I watched all of the Seinfeld episodes, but lost interest in Fraiser
after the first season. I have the impression that Fraiser had more
appeal to a wider market, but Seinfeld had a more dedicated
viewership. You either liked Seinfeld a lot or you disliked it
immensely, but Fraiser's audience was more in the middle of the bell
curve.
The quality of the writing on Frazier was very high, much more so than
for most US sitcoms.
Seinfeld was ruined by the lack of acting ability of Seinfeld himself.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 14:54:15 UTC
Reply
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Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
I watched all of the Seinfeld episodes, but lost interest in Fraiser
after the first season. I have the impression that Fraiser had more
appeal to a wider market, but Seinfeld had a more dedicated
viewership. You either liked Seinfeld a lot or you disliked it
immensely, but Fraiser's audience was more in the middle of the bell
curve.
The quality of the writing on Frazier was very high, much more so than
for most US sitcoms.
Seinfeld was ruined by the lack of acting ability of Seinfeld himself.
And by the character of Elaine. Which may have been Louis-Dreyfus's
fault. I've never liked her in anything, couldn't understand her stream
of Emmys for *The New Adventures of Old Christine* (which was
watched for Wanda Sykes and Hamish Linklater [whom I subsequently
saw in a Shakespeare in the Park production]) and never had the
slightest interest in trying *Veep*.
Mark Brader
2021-03-20 06:16:26 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
What I truly think is that Seinfeld is most likely one American
TV channel's response to Frasier, or vice versa...
I'm not sure you've got the right end of the stick there.
They overlapped for a few years in that Seinfeld ran from 1989 for
9 seasons and Frazier ran from 1993 for 11 seasons, but on different
nights on the same network.
Frasier was spawned by Cheers, which was also on NBC.
...
Post by Tony Cooper
I watched all of the Seinfeld episodes, but lost interest in Fraiser
after the first season. I have the impression that Fraiser had more
appeal to a wider market, but Seinfeld had a more dedicated
viewership. You either liked Seinfeld a lot or you disliked it
immensely, but Fraiser's audience was more in the middle of the bell
curve.
I've seen about 4-5 whole episodes of "Seinfeld", and parts of others,
and the part that was referred to upthread is one that I've seen.
In general I'm closer to the immense-dislike side of the curve, but
some of the episodes I saw had been selected as "fan favorites" and
there were two or three that I liked quite a bit.

Neither Cathy now I found "Cheers" appealing, so she was surprised to
like "Frasier" (that's the correct spelling) and eventually convinced
me to watch some episodes, and then a lot more episodes I found that
I consistently found myself not feeling like I *wanted* to watch them,
but once I did, I almost always found that I liked them quite a bit.
It was weird.

Once at Cathy's suggestion I helped create a trivia-league audio round
based on the phone-ins (generally voiced by celebrities) to Frasier's
radio show within the TV show.
--
Mark Brader | "The good [people] ended happily, and the bad unhappily.
Toronto | That is what Fiction means."
***@vex.net | -- Oscar Wilde, "The Importance of Being Earnest"

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-20 12:19:05 UTC
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:43:58 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't know if Coronation Street and Eastenders vied with each other,
but - if they did - it would mean (to me) that a viewer could watch
one but not the other unless recording one.
They do vie, compete, with each other for viewers. They are not
broadcast simultaneously. Viewers are not forced to choose which to
watch, they can watch both.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
CDB
2021-03-20 12:31:18 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was
Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Thanks, because it made no sense to me in the original post. Now I
can see that it never could, because I don't know anything about
Seinfeld and seasons. What I truly think is that Seinfeld is most
likely one American TV channel's response to Frasier, or vice
versa, just as Coronation Street and Eastenders vie with (or is it
against?) each other on British TV.
I'm not sure you've got the right end of the stick there.
I don't see a "response" aspect in that the two shows did not run in
competition. Both were on the NBC network. They overlapped for a
few years in that Seinfeld ran from 1989 for 9 seasons and Frazier
ran from 1993 for 11 seasons, but on different nights on the same
network.
Frasier was spawned by Cheers, which was also on NBC.
I don't know if Coronation Street and Eastenders vied with each
other, but - if they did - it would mean (to me) that a viewer could
watch one but not the other unless recording one.
I watched all of the Seinfeld episodes, but lost interest in Fraiser
after the first season. I have the impression that Fraiser had more
appeal to a wider market, but Seinfeld had a more dedicated
viewership. You either liked Seinfeld a lot or you disliked it
immensely, but Fraiser's audience was more in the middle of the bell
curve.
I only ever watched one episode of _Seinfeld_, but I liked that one --
The "Assman" episode, the one with Stiller's move.
Quinn C
2021-03-20 00:06:18 UTC
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Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
--
George: You don't know these people. They find emotions disgusting.
They just want to have a good time and make jokes.
Mae: Oh, so they're British?
-- Feel Good
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 14:50:09 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
Referring to the alternate pronunciation with initial stress? Note that this
word offers another example of the o alternation that Ross seems to
allege doesn't exist. Even those who use the Dolores-rhyming version
will perform the stress shift and associated vowel reduction when using
the derivation with -al.

NB I made this paragraph Stefan-friendly.
Ross Clark
2021-03-21 06:01:41 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
Referring to the alternate pronunciation with initial stress? Note that this
word offers another example of the o alternation that Ross seems to
allege doesn't exist.
What on earth made me seem to you to allege that?

Even those who use the Dolores-rhyming version
Post by Peter T. Daniels
will perform the stress shift and associated vowel reduction when using
the derivation with -al.
NB I made this paragraph Stefan-friendly.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-20 15:35:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
Traditional sitcom humor. A character gets obsessed with something
and it turns out at the end that the whole thing was based on a
misconception. (That's not an argument against "contrived and
unfun".)

For me, though, the rhyme is perfect, and would be with "Doris" too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2021-03-20 19:20:15 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
Traditional sitcom humor. A character gets obsessed with something
and it turns out at the end that the whole thing was based on a
misconception. (That's not an argument against "contrived and
unfun".)
For me, though, the rhyme is perfect, and would be with "Doris" too.
In that case, I agree that it's standard sitcom level of humor. The
issue was that I started out from "ok, I guess some people say it like
that, maybe", and that makes a huge difference.

The "non-perfect" might have been just me struggling with imagining the
unfamiliar pronunciation correctly. Although one dictionary on the
Collins website, Random House, it seems, claims that AmE can also have
the goat vowel in the word (really, before r?), plus the first syllable
can also rhyme with sky. Possibilities, possibilities ...

Now I don't hear clitoris every day in my line of work, but I'm
reasonably sure that I've heard it overwhelmingly with first-syllable
stress. Some of the speakers I heard it from were probably British or
Australian, and other than that, I don't know if it makes a difference
that it was more often therapists and doctors, and not so often random
civilians.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 20:28:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Mark Brader
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
If someone should not get this: Just watch "The Junior Mint"
again! (Which, of course, is the 19th episode of the fourth
season of "Seinfeld".) So, it has nothing to do with Nabokov
books this time.
Even though I've known the explanation in the past, I couldn't remember,
because it refers to a non-perfect rhyme with an alternate pronunciation
that I don't think I've ever heard in real life. Which makes the whole
setup feel contrived and unfun to me.
Traditional sitcom humor. A character gets obsessed with something
and it turns out at the end that the whole thing was based on a
misconception. (That's not an argument against "contrived and
unfun".)
For me, though, the rhyme is perfect, and would be with "Doris" too.
In that case, I agree that it's standard sitcom level of humor. The
issue was that I started out from "ok, I guess some people say it like
that, maybe", and that makes a huge difference.
The "non-perfect" might have been just me struggling with imagining the
unfamiliar pronunciation correctly. Although one dictionary on the
Collins website, Random House, it seems, claims that AmE can also have
the goat vowel in the word (really, before r?), plus the first syllable
Phonemes, me ___, phonemes. /o/ ~ /O/ is neutralized before /r/,
and /O/ doesn't exist for half the population of the US.
Post by Quinn C
can also rhyme with sky. Possibilities, possibilities ...
Now I don't hear clitoris every day in my line of work, but I'm
reasonably sure that I've heard it overwhelmingly with first-syllable
stress. Some of the speakers I heard it from were probably British or
Australian, and other than that, I don't know if it makes a difference
that it was more often therapists and doctors, and not so often random
civilians.
1st syll. for me. Usually the word is abbreviated.
CDB
2021-03-20 12:24:52 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
...but could only remember that her name had something to do with
her ladybits? When he saw her next he addressed her as "Mulva",
thus spoiling his chances of getting better acquainted with
"Regina".
I'm pretty sure that what her name turned out to be was Dolores.
There's tsuris for you.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 03:06:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by CDB
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
répertoire /ʀepɛʀtwaʀ/
I have never properly learned French (didn't have it in school), but
my self-made rule of thumb is: "In French, the last letter of each
word is not pronounced". In this case, it would be correct.
Your rendering above seems to indicate that all three "r"s are
pronounced, including the one at the end.
The last letter is an 'e', which is pronounced only in some parts of France.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:14:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
répertoire /ʀepɛʀtwaʀ/
I have never properly learned French (didn't have it in school), but
my self-made rule of thumb is: "In French, the last letter of each
word is not pronounced". In this case, it would be correct.
Your rendering above seems to indicate that all three "r"s are
pronounced, including the one at the end.
The last letter is an 'e', which is pronounced only in some parts of France.
For example by our dear Prime Minister, who is speaking at this moment.
However, I get the impression that his teacher try to get his mute e
muter.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
CDB
2021-03-20 12:38:04 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
répertoire /ʀepɛʀtwaʀ/
I have never properly learned French (didn't have it in school),
but my self-made rule of thumb is: "In French, the last letter
of each word is not pronounced". In this case, it would be
correct.
Your rendering above seems to indicate that all three "r"s are
pronounced, including the one at the end.
The last letter is an 'e', which is pronounced only in some parts of France.
Agreed. I was addressing Stephan's phonemtic rendering above, in which
the last letter is a small-cap "R", with the orthographic version's
final "e" left unpronounced, as you say.
Lewis
2021-03-19 12:52:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?

Did they also ban Koka Kola?
--
A dyslexic walks into a bra...
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-19 19:13:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
charles
2021-03-19 20:06:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the lenses
have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps what
we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was,
Nye-kon seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for
Iran). Each to their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese
pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 21:12:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the lenses
have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps what
we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was,
Nye-kon seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for
Iran). Each to their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese
pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission," but
"transmission radio" didn't make any sense.

When I was a teenager I briefly had a radio transmitter, but I couldn't
listen to radio stations on it.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2021-03-19 21:51:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the lenses
have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps what
we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was,
Nye-kon seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for
Iran). Each to their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese
pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission," but
"transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-20 00:51:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the lenses
have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps what
we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was,
Nye-kon seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for
Iran). Each to their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese
pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission," but
"transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-20 10:53:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-20 11:22:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Sam
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve radio sets which preceded them.

The nickname was later used for the Ford Transit van, but not so widely
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:24:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Sam
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
The nickname was later used for the Ford Transit van, but not so widely
As I intimated about, in the USA, "tranny" is often used as short form
for a car transmission.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Sam
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
The nickname was later used for the Ford Transit van, but not so widely
As I intimated about,
"above," not "about."
Post by Ken Blake
in the USA, "tranny" is often used as short form
for a car transmission.
--
Ken
charles
2021-03-20 15:30:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Sam
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
No, your's had 'tubes'.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 17:39:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Sam
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
No, your's had 'tubes'.
Yep!
--
Ken
Quinn C
2021-03-20 19:20:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the valve
radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
Sounds like steampunk to me.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Peter Moylan
2021-03-21 01:05:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ken Blake
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Transistor radios were a marvel, being so much smaller than the
valve radio sets which preceded them.
We never had valve radios here in the USA.
Sounds like steampunk to me.
Some of the old explanations of how triodes worked used the analogy of a
valve to control fluid flow.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 11:35:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall
them being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
I see your "transistor radio" and raise you one. To begin with, it was a
"Japanese transistor radio", at least here. The phrase was gradually
shortened over time.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-20 12:23:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:53:13 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission,"
but "transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
A common term in the UK in (say) the 1960s.
I disagree; it was a "transistor radio" with "radio" for short or
"tranny" as a nickname. Not the mixed combination.
+1
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Lewis
2021-03-20 07:53:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the lenses
have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps what
we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was,
Nye-kon seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for
Iran). Each to their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese
pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out that "tranny" meant
"transistor." The only thing I could think of was "transmission," but
"transmission radio" didn't make any sense.
I knew, and I owned some transistor radios, but I don't recall them
being called tranny radios.
I've never heard the term before this thread, or at least never
remembered it, but I was not confused about what was intended.
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
Pinky: (talking to his reflection in the mirror) Pinky, are you
pondering what I'm pondering?
Pinky's Reflection: Why, yes,
Pinky! Yes, I am! But where would you get a chicken, 20 yards of
spandex and smelling salts at this hour?
Quinn C
2021-03-20 19:19:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
I had to google "tranny radio" to find out
For a moment there, I imagined a radio in heels and fishnet stockings,
but then it occurred to me
Post by Ken Blake
that "tranny" meant "transistor."
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-20 00:53:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Lewis
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio". Although one could
tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a tranny radio - once
tranny radios became available to us young folk.
I could tune to R Lux long before the days of 'tranny radios'.
In in our house. Twiddle with 'The Family Wireless'!?!
Certainly not.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Lewis
2021-03-19 21:41:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
--
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail but a true friend
will be sitting next to you saying, "Dang, that was fun."
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-20 00:54:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
I know the band's name. That's about it. (Not my era.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-20 04:00:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[Nikon]
Post by Lewis
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
I know the band's name. That's about it. (Not my era.)
It was my era, but I don't know it--no, wait, I listened to it on YouTube and
it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was called "Coke Adds Life".
Even more obviously not an ad than "Kodachrome".

Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened to
that one too, and it's a strange song.

They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot Rod
Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
--
Jerry Friedman would like to teach the world to sing.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 05:46:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
It was my era, but I don't know it--no, wait, I listened to it on
YouTube and it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was
called "Coke Adds Life". Even more obviously not an ad than
"Kodachrome".
I don't have YouTube on this computer. I'll have to remember to check
later. It might turn out to be something I've heard of.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened
to that one too, and it's a strange song.
For a more borderline case: "I'd like to teach the world to sing". I
think that was originally a Coca Cola ad, but then became a popular song.
Post by Jerry Friedman
They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot
Rod Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
Those wouldn't have needed banning. Most of the car songs I heard
referred to brands that are unknown here, and I suppose the same would
be true in the UK.

I do know that a Cadillac is a good car to drive after a war.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-20 11:09:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 05:46:57 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
It was my era, but I don't know it--no, wait, I listened to it on
YouTube and it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was
called "Coke Adds Life". Even more obviously not an ad than
"Kodachrome".
X-Ray Spex had trouble with "Warrior in Woolworths" and "Germ-free
Adolescent" ["cleans her teeth 10 times a day, brush away, brush away,
the SR way"] also "The Day the World turned DayGlo" mentioned a "Wimpy
Bar".

Much earlier the Kinks had to have their naive nightclub-goer drink
"Cherry Cola" to get airplay.
Post by Peter Moylan
I don't have YouTube on this computer. I'll have to remember to check
later. It might turn out to be something I've heard of.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened
to that one too, and it's a strange song.
For a more borderline case: "I'd like to teach the world to sing". I
think that was originally a Coca Cola ad, but then became a popular song.
With different lyrics.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot
Rod Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
Those wouldn't have needed banning. Most of the car songs I heard
referred to brands that are unknown here, and I suppose the same would
be true in the UK.
I do know that a Cadillac is a good car to drive after a war.
Tom Robinson managed to get away with "Grey Cortina" and "XJ6"

Latterly anything goes; witness [if you can] the Fast Food song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOC9d17vASc
Bleedin' grease-pushers.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:38:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[Nikon]
Post by Lewis
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
I know the band's name. That's about it. (Not my era.)
It was my era, but I don't know it--
If it was your era, it must have been mine too, but I never heard of it.
I've always avoided all rock and roll. . The names of most of the
well-known bands are familiar to me, but not their music.
Post by Jerry Friedman
no, wait, I listened to it on YouTube and
it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was called "Coke Adds Life".
Even more obviously not an ad than "Kodachrome".
Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened to
that one too, and it's a strange song.
They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot Rod
Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-20 15:48:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[Auntie doesn't like songs with adverts]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
I know the band's name. That's about it. (Not my era.)
It was my era, but I don't know it--
If it was your era, it must have been mine too, but I never heard of it.
I'm actually a generation younger than you.
Post by Ken Blake
I've always avoided all rock and roll. . The names of most of the
well-known bands are familiar to me, but not their music.
Post by Jerry Friedman
no, wait, I listened to it on YouTube and
it sounded very familiar.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2021-03-20 19:20:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
It was my era, but I don't know it--no, wait, I listened to it on YouTube and
it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was called "Coke Adds Life".
Even more obviously not an ad than "Kodachrome".
Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened to
that one too, and it's a strange song.
They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot Rod
Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
But "Mercedes-Benz" would have been.
--
There is a whole cottage industry devoted to people who are
upset by the idea of others being outraged.
-- Washington Post 2019-09-18
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 20:26:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
It was my era, but I don't know it--no, wait, I listened to it on YouTube and
it sounded very familiar. I think I thought it was called "Coke Adds Life".
Even more obviously not an ad than "Kodachrome".
Not my era, but did the BBC ban "Rum and Coca Cola"? I just listened to
that one too, and it's a strange song.
They must also have banned a lot of American love songs to cars--"Hot Rod
Lincoln", "409", etc. No great loss.
But "Mercedes-Benz" would have been.
Mercedes used the Joplin song in TV commercials.

Things controlled by the Michael Jackson estate -- notably Jackson 5
and Beatles songs -- are now appearing in TV commercials.
Lewis
2021-03-20 07:58:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The only pronunciation I've ever heard is Nick-on.
I conclude that you've never heard that name spoken by an American,
including Paul Simon in the song "Kodachrome".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K5Q5huQ-4
Whoops, that one got away prematurely. What I meant to add was, Nye-kon
seems to be an exclusively AmE sound (cf. 'Aye-ran' for Iran). Each to
their own, unless you are after the authentic Japanese pronunciation.
Many UK residents were not familiar with that particular Paul Simon
song. The BBC banned it on the grounds that it contained advertising.
Is (was) the BBC the only source of music broadcast in the UK?
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Post by Lewis
Did they also ban Koka Kola?
Wazzat?
The Clash, Combat Rock, Koka Kola.
I know the band's name. That's about it. (Not my era.)
I don't know what the hell I was thinking, it is from London Calling, not
Combat Rock, of course. Stupid Brain Cloud.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Calling#Reappraisal_and_legacy>
--
THE DEATH OF A WARRIOR OR THE OLD MAN OR THE LITTLE CHILD, THIS I
UNDERSTAND, AND I TAKE AWAY THE PAIN AND END THE SUFFERING. I DO
NOT UNDERSTAND THIS DEATH-OF-THE-MIND. --The Light Fantastic
occam
2021-03-20 12:13:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Ah, there is a type of radio you cannot mention in polite company to
these days. Not PC, transvestite radios. You should refer to them as
no-gender radios.
Ken Blake
2021-03-20 15:32:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Sam Plusnet
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Ah, there is a type of radio you cannot mention in polite company to
these days. Not PC, transvestite radios. You should refer to them as
no-gender radios.
Transvestite? Still another meaning for "tranny" I didn't know.
--
Ken
Lewis
2021-03-21 00:38:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Sam Plusnet
Pretty much so until the advent of "Pirate Radio".
Although one could tune into Radio Luxemburg (spelling optional) on a
tranny radio - once tranny radios became available to us young folk.
Ah, there is a type of radio you cannot mention in polite company to
these days. Not PC, transvestite radios. You should refer to them as
no-gender radios.
Transvestites are not (necessarily) transgender or no-gender.
--
'Ah... I see that the new traffic division is having the desired
effect.' He indicated a large pile of paper. 'I am getting any
amount of complaints from the Carters' and Drovers' Guild. Well
done. Do pass on my thanks to Sergeant Colon and his team.'
'I will, sir.'
'I see in one day they clamped seventeen carts, ten horses, eighteen oxen and one duck.'
'It was parked illegally, sir.'
CDB
2021-03-19 12:53:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
Which of the three r's are "both"?
Good question. How careless of me. Both "r"s of doubtful articulation.

I was concentrating on the two that had been represented as non-rhotic
when this started (in "repehtwah" or something like it) and overlooked
the first one.
CDB
2021-03-19 12:56:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people mispronounce
things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as
"for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the
other day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one
at the end.
Remind me of something.
Is French as emphatically non-rhotic as RP in all instances of an
"r" in the word, or only at the end?
Because otherwise it would make some amount of sense to hear a
mildly rhotic "r" (not the West Country R) before the "t" but not
at the end. Not /total/ sense, of course, because the "e"
*should* suggest a consonant that doesn't get dropped, but I can
see where the presenter might have THOUGHT that was proper
French.
French has articulated "r"s at the end of many words, like
"venir", pouvoir", "impair", and "four". It's true that the "r" at
the end of first-conjugation infinitives is not pronounced, but I
don't think that qualifies French as non-rhotic. I remember a
mnemonic from my high-school classes: "careful Q". The consonants
pronounced at the ends of words were "c, r, f, l, q".
In any case, both of the "r's in "repertoire" are pronounced in
French.
It has 3 Rs. Which two do you mean by 'both'?
Both of the ones on which doubt had been cast (see above).
CDB
2021-03-19 13:03:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people mispronounce
things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other
day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at
the end.
Remind me of something.
Is French as emphatdically non-rhotic as RP in all instances of an
"r" in the word, or only at the end?
Because otherwise it would make some amount of sense to hear a mildly
 rhotic "r" (not the West Country R) before the "t" but not at the
end. Not /total/ sense, of course, because the "e" *should* suggest a
 consonant that doesn't get dropped, but I can see where the
presenter might have THOUGHT that was proper French.
A French 'r' is much less emphatic than an English 'r'. It is pronounced
far back on the tongue, in a similar position to the [x] of a German
achlaut, but with rather less constriction. If you're not used to
hearing that sound, then a French "repertoire" might sound like
"wepetwa". In fact all three 'r' sounds are present, they're just
somewhat subtle.
In short, French is not at all non-rhotic, it just has a rather quiet
'r' sound.
(That's for the French of France. Canadian French sounds a bit more
guttural to me, but I haven't heard enough samples to be sure of that.
The various African Frenches are more different again.)
Ken mentioned a strong rolled R. Singers do that, and speakers who want
to emphasise a word, but it's not really part of normal speech. Also,
it's not done by vibrating the tip of the tongue. It's a
back-of-the-throat trill.
On ne rregrrette rrien.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYKC4v7Trek
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-19 13:23:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people mispronounce
things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other
day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at
the end.
Remind me of something.
Is French as emphatdically non-rhotic as RP in all instances of an
"r" in the word, or only at the end?
Because otherwise it would make some amount of sense to hear a mildly
 rhotic "r" (not the West Country R) before the "t" but not at the
end. Not /total/ sense, of course, because the "e" *should* suggest a
 consonant that doesn't get dropped, but I can see where the
presenter might have THOUGHT that was proper French.
A French 'r' is much less emphatic than an English 'r'. It is pronounced
far back on the tongue, in a similar position to the [x] of a German
achlaut, but with rather less constriction. If you're not used to
hearing that sound, then a French "repertoire" might sound like
"wepetwa". In fact all three 'r' sounds are present, they're just
somewhat subtle.
In short, French is not at all non-rhotic, it just has a rather quiet
'r' sound.
(That's for the French of France. Canadian French sounds a bit more
guttural to me, but I haven't heard enough samples to be sure of that.
The various African Frenches are more different again.)
Ken mentioned a strong rolled R. Singers do that, and speakers who want
to emphasise a word, but it's not really part of normal speech. Also,
it's not done by vibrating the tip of the tongue. It's a
back-of-the-throat trill.
On ne rregrrette rrien.
Yes, but Édith Piaf was a law unto herself.
Post by CDB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYKC4v7Trek
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 03:13:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Ken mentioned a strong rolled R. Singers do that, and speakers who want
to emphasise a word, but it's not really part of normal speech. Also,
it's not done by vibrating the tip of the tongue. It's a
back-of-the-throat trill.
On ne rregrrette rrien.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYKC4v7Trek
When singing that song, I tend to put a trill into the word "tremolos".
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
CDB
2021-03-19 13:10:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia with
the name Shin Wah.
Probably "Xinhua", New China, as in the news agency and a lot of
other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_(disambiguation)
Mais en français...
I suppose they might be Boat People.

Peter, would you recognise the characters on the sign? The WParticle
gives them in their various forms.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 05:36:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
...
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia with
the name Shin Wah.
Probably "Xinhua", New China, as in the news agency and a lot of
other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_(disambiguation)
Mais en français...
I suppose they might be Boat People.
Peter, would you recognise the characters on the sign? The WParticle
gives them in their various forms.
Sorry, but I'm not sure I'd even know how to find the restaurants again.
These are just restaurants I've noticed in passing in my travels - so
not in this area - and I didn't take note of where they were.

At the time, I assume that the name Shin Wah was an English version of
Chinois.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
CDB
2021-03-20 13:18:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
...
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia
with the name Shin Wah.
Probably "Xinhua", New China, as in the news agency and a lot
of other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_(disambiguation)
Mais en français...
I suppose they might be Boat People.
Peter, would you recognise the characters on the sign? The
WParticle gives them in their various forms.
Sorry, but I'm not sure I'd even know how to find the restaurants
again. These are just restaurants I've noticed in passing in my
travels - so not in this area - and I didn't take note of where they
were.
At the time, I assume that the name Shin Wah was an English version
of Chinois.
A mystery, then. There is a "Shin Wah" restaurant in Waterloo ON, but
the only character on their website is hua4, talk.
CDB
2021-03-19 13:14:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia with
the name Shin Wah.
Probably "Xinhua", New China, as in the news agency and a lot of
other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_(disambiguation)
Mais en français...
Mon beau jardin fleurit en mai, mais en hiver - Jamais, jamais,
jamais, jamais, jamais N'est vert, n'est vert, n'est vert, n'est
vert, n'est vert.
(Vladimir Nabokov, circling back to the topic of Poe)
"Ver non semper viret." Ipsx dixerunt.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-19 13:21:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
So have I (and still do). Nothing I've seen convinces me that we should
call it by its French name in English.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
occam
2021-03-19 16:03:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
So have I (and still do). Nothing I've seen convinces me that we should
call it by its French name in English.
The founders of the EU, esp. Robert Schuman, would chide you.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-19 13:25:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I had an Australian boss who referred to a local French
restaurant as: "The Coke D'Or".
I wish they'd let me in so I could find out what's behind the coke
door.
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia with the
name Shin Wah.
I remember seeing more than one Chinese restaurant in Chine with a
poster outside proclaiming their special: crap.
I was once in a French restaurant in Newcastle where the blackboard menu
featured "Lion of lamb". Everyone in our party wanted the lion.
When I was a little lad in Sigapore I was in a meat shop offering, so I
thought, lion chops. It was many years before I remembered this
(probably in another shop offering loin chops) and realized what it
must have said.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Quinn C
2021-03-19 13:23:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
A similar principle gave us the name Kyocera, from Kyoto Ceramics
(京都セラミック, Kyōto Seramikku). To mimic the original, "Kyo" should
be one
English syllable, in Kyoto, and therefore also in Kyocera.
Whatever will be, will be.
<smile> Kyocera, sera.
It's even more funny when you know that a lot of morphemes read "kyō",
including the one in question, can alternatively be read "kei". For
example, if you talk about Kyoto and Osaka, it's called "keihan".

So it would totally be within the realm of Japanese wordplay to read 京セラ
as "kei sera".
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
Adam Funk
2021-03-19 13:28:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I had an Australian boss who referred to a local French
restaurant as: "The Coke D'Or".
I wish they'd let me in so I could find out what's behind the coke
door.
I've encountered several Chinese restaurants in Australia with the
name Shin Wah.
I remember seeing more than one Chinese restaurant in Chine with a
poster outside proclaiming their special: crap.
I was once in a French restaurant in Newcastle where the blackboard menu
featured "Lion of lamb". Everyone in our party wanted the lion.
Did it taste like a dead cat?
--
My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a
whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's
hardly any difference. ---Harry S Truman
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 14:57:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
No argument on this! BTW, with that particular one, what's a NEW WORLD
Spanish speaker who pronounces Barcelona as "Barth-e-lona"? I suppose
it's POSSIBLE they use a sound that they'd otherwise have no reason to
produce ever, but how would one learn to do so?
It's of course possible, just as AmE speakers can learn BrE and v.v.
But an additional argument against the "th" is that the local language
in Barcelona is Catalan, which doesn't use it either.
Spain has a lot of local languages. The four main ones are Castilian
(usually known as "Spanish"), Basque, Catalan, and Galician.

Other than Castilian, I don't know which languages use the th sound. If
I remember correctly, many Castilian speakers don't even use it these days.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2021-03-19 17:20:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
No argument on this! BTW, with that particular one, what's a NEW WORLD
Spanish speaker who pronounces Barcelona as "Barth-e-lona"? I suppose
it's POSSIBLE they use a sound that they'd otherwise have no reason to
produce ever, but how would one learn to do so?
It's of course possible, just as AmE speakers can learn BrE and v.v.
But an additional argument against the "th" is that the local language
in Barcelona is Catalan, which doesn't use it either.
Spain has a lot of local languages. The four main ones are Castilian
(usually known as "Spanish"), Basque, Catalan, and Galician.
Other than Castilian, I don't know which languages use the th sound. If
I remember correctly, many Castilian speakers don't even use it these days.
The story that I have stashed away in the depth of memory is that Latin
American Spanish doesn't have the ceceo because so many of the emigrants
were Andalusian. But I wouldn't trust this story coming from me.

Aside: Only "emigrants" seems to fit when going to the colonies.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-19 15:06:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I have doubts about the "greatness" of morphological-etymologyical
spelling in English. David Crystal wrote a very interesting book
explaining all of it, but honestly, if you have to read a whole book
about it just to make sense of your own language's spelling, then your
language's spelling system stinks.
That's a bit strong. I suspect Prof Crystal was just trying to explain
how English orthography got to be the way it is, not to justify its
indefinite continuation in its present form..
The book is *Spell It Out*, and it's superb. The very best of the few
histories of English spelling.
What you and PM and Ranjit write to each other in English can easily
be read and understood by everyone here. If each of you were using
a phonetic, or probably even phonemic, orthography, that wouldn't be
the case.
I strongly doubt that. What makes the understanding possible is the
standardization of English orthography. The same spelling is taught to
speakers with all kinds of different accents. It doesn't fit perfectly
with anybody's accent, but the uniformity makes written communication
easy. Phonetic/phonemic/morphophonemic has nothing to do with it.
That's exactly what I said. What do you "strongly doubt"?
Nobody seriously advocates a phonetic orthography, so that's a straw man.
Again, it seems you are unaware of the rabid spelling reform movement(s).
They begin from a position of ignorance and refuse to listen to anyone who
advocates anything but the Shavian "one phoneme - one letter" nonsense.

Last night I was reviewing Cummings and Carney, the two massive attempts
to systematize the study of orthography, and one of them (probably Carney)
has several pages on the astonishing incompetence of Shaw's attempts to
write the dialects he wanted used in some of the plays. He even complained
in a letter that the actors couldn't figure out what he wanted them to say
until they'd transcribed what he'd written back into standard orthography.
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
Ross Clark
2021-03-19 21:19:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I have doubts about the "greatness" of morphological-etymologyical
spelling in English. David Crystal wrote a very interesting book
explaining all of it, but honestly, if you have to read a whole book
about it just to make sense of your own language's spelling, then your
language's spelling system stinks.
That's a bit strong. I suspect Prof Crystal was just trying to explain
how English orthography got to be the way it is, not to justify its
indefinite continuation in its present form..
The book is *Spell It Out*, and it's superb. The very best of the few
histories of English spelling.
What you and PM and Ranjit write to each other in English can easily
be read and understood by everyone here. If each of you were using
a phonetic, or probably even phonemic, orthography, that wouldn't be
the case.
I strongly doubt that. What makes the understanding possible is the
standardization of English orthography. The same spelling is taught to
speakers with all kinds of different accents. It doesn't fit perfectly
with anybody's accent, but the uniformity makes written communication
easy. Phonetic/phonemic/morphophonemic has nothing to do with it.
That's exactly what I said.
No, it isn't. But I admit that I slightly misread your second sentence.
I thought you were claiming that English orthography was of some other
type (not phonetic, not phonemic), and that this was the secret of its
universal intelligibility. (Adam had mentioned
"morphological-etymological spelling", and you frequently allude to
morphophonemic spelling as one of its virtues.)
I now see that you meant "each...using a phonetic, or probably even
phonemic, orthography [based on their own dialect]...". I agree that
would make it less easy, but by no means impossible.

What do you "strongly doubt"?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Nobody seriously advocates a phonetic orthography, so that's a straw man.
Again, it seems you are unaware of the rabid spelling reform movement(s).
They begin from a position of ignorance and refuse to listen to anyone who
advocates anything but the Shavian "one phoneme - one letter" nonsense.
I don't consider them serious.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Last night I was reviewing Cummings and Carney, the two massive attempts
to systematize the study of orthography, and one of them (probably Carney)
has several pages on the astonishing incompetence of Shaw's attempts to
write the dialects he wanted used in some of the plays. He even complained
in a letter that the actors couldn't figure out what he wanted them to say
until they'd transcribed what he'd written back into standard orthography.
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-19 21:26:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."

Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
Ross Clark
2021-03-20 01:15:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."
Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
I'll go with types -- certainly in everyday vocabulary. Scientific
terminology would likely increase the percentage of morphophonemics.
And I'll say morphemes, since a number of extremely common affixes (the
-(e)s and -(e)d ones) have a sort-of morphophonemic spelling.
Do you have any actual figures on the subject?
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 18:35:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."
Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
I'll go with types -- certainly in everyday vocabulary. Scientific
terminology would likely increase the percentage of morphophonemics.
And I'll say morphemes, since a number of extremely common affixes (the
-(e)s and -(e)d ones) have a sort-of morphophonemic spelling.
"a sort-of"???
Post by Ross Clark
Do you have any actual figures on the subject?
Statistics were compiled at first by reformers (viz., Godfrey Dewey)
and subsequently by the earliest computer users (e.g. the Brown
Corpus), who weren't interested in word structure.
Ross Clark
2021-03-20 19:53:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."
Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
I'll go with types -- certainly in everyday vocabulary. Scientific
terminology would likely increase the percentage of morphophonemics.
And I'll say morphemes, since a number of extremely common affixes (the
-(e)s and -(e)d ones) have a sort-of morphophonemic spelling.
"a sort-of"???
A strict morphophonemic representation ought to have a single form for
the phonemically-varying morpheme. As indicated above, these suffixes
have a single form for the consonant, but spell out the vowel preceding
it in words like "peaches" and "wanted".

On second thought, they're not quite parallel. The -ed ones always show
the vowel, even when it's not there ("balls" but "called"). I wonder
why? Of course you need some kind of rule to get rid of the double-e in
cases like "horses" and "chased".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Do you have any actual figures on the subject?
Statistics were compiled at first by reformers (viz., Godfrey Dewey)
and subsequently by the earliest computer users (e.g. the Brown
Corpus), who weren't interested in word structure.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 20:34:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."
Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
I'll go with types -- certainly in everyday vocabulary. Scientific
terminology would likely increase the percentage of morphophonemics.
And I'll say morphemes, since a number of extremely common affixes (the
-(e)s and -(e)d ones) have a sort-of morphophonemic spelling.
"a sort-of"???
A strict morphophonemic representation ought to have a single form for
the phonemically-varying morpheme. As indicated above, these suffixes
have a single form for the consonant, but spell out the vowel preceding
it in words like "peaches" and "wanted".
I just used -ed as my example for explaining morphophonemic spelling
precisely because it stays -ed in all three pronunciations. Pps with vowel
change (slept) are a different kettle of fish. E.g. asked, pushed, mussed,
stuffed, propped.
Post by Ross Clark
On second thought, they're not quite parallel. The -ed ones always show
the vowel, even when it's not there ("balls" but "called"). I wonder
why? Of course you need some kind of rule to get rid of the double-e in
cases like "horses" and "chased".
Which is hardly specific to inflections. See Venezky on "markers."
Sorry, but you're really out of your depth here.
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Do you have any actual figures on the subject?
Statistics were compiled at first by reformers (viz., Godfrey Dewey)
and subsequently by the earliest computer users (e.g. the Brown
Corpus), who weren't interested in word structure.
Ross Clark
2021-03-21 05:54:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
- It is not used consistently throughout the vocabulary (see the recent
example of profound/profundity, also things like leaf/leaves, feel/felt).
- Even if it were, it would still not affect a very large portion of the
English vocabulary, for which morphophonemic = phonemic.
Again, you have not paid attention to the topic.
What in the above would I not have written if I had "paid attention to
the topic"? Are you disagreeing with either of the points I made, or
just insisting that they are not "often overlooked"?
"it would still not affect a very large portion of the English vocabulary,
for which morphophonemic = phonemic."
Maybe you're thinking of tokens rather than types.
I'll go with types -- certainly in everyday vocabulary. Scientific
terminology would likely increase the percentage of morphophonemics.
And I'll say morphemes, since a number of extremely common affixes (the
-(e)s and -(e)d ones) have a sort-of morphophonemic spelling.
"a sort-of"???
A strict morphophonemic representation ought to have a single form for
the phonemically-varying morpheme. As indicated above, these suffixes
have a single form for the consonant, but spell out the vowel preceding
it in words like "peaches" and "wanted".
I just used -ed as my example for explaining morphophonemic spelling
precisely because it stays -ed in all three pronunciations. Pps with vowel
change (slept) are a different kettle of fish. E.g. asked, pushed, mussed,
stuffed, propped.
Well, the vowel-change verbs were always a challenge to classical
morphology. I suppose "different kettle of fish" means you don't have to
identify anything in them as a past tense/participle morpheme.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
On second thought, they're not quite parallel. The -ed ones always show
the vowel, even when it's not there ("balls" but "called"). I wonder
why? Of course you need some kind of rule to get rid of the double-e in
cases like "horses" and "chased".
Which is hardly specific to inflections. See Venezky on "markers."
Sorry, but you're really out of your depth here.
No, you're not sorry; you could skip the condescension and have more
friends and admirers.
Meanwhile, you haven't made much progress in explaining why what I said
about morphophonemic=phonemic is wrong.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Do you have any actual figures on the subject?
Statistics were compiled at first by reformers (viz., Godfrey Dewey)
and subsequently by the earliest computer users (e.g. the Brown
Corpus), who weren't interested in word structure.
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 15:09:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 11:32:33 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people mispronounce
things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other
day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at
the end.
Remind me of something.
Is French as emphatdically non-rhotic as RP in all instances of an
"r" in the word, or only at the end?
Because otherwise it would make some amount of sense to hear a mildly
rhotic "r" (not the West Country R) before the "t" but not at the
end. Not /total/ sense, of course, because the "e" *should* suggest a
consonant that doesn't get dropped, but I can see where the
presenter might have THOUGHT that was proper French.
A French 'r' is much less emphatic than an English 'r'. It is pronounced
far back on the tongue, in a similar position to the [x] of a German
achlaut, but with rather less constriction. If you're not used to
hearing that sound, then a French "repertoire" might sound like
"wepetwa". In fact all three 'r' sounds are present, they're just
somewhat subtle.
In short, French is not at all non-rhotic, it just has a rather quiet
'r' sound.
(That's for the French of France. Canadian French sounds a bit more
guttural to me, but I haven't heard enough samples to be sure of that.
The various African Frenches are more different again.)
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking a
language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German (I know
a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I asked him
what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian French. It didn't
sound at all like French to me.
Ken mentioned a strong rolled R. Singers do that, and speakers who want
to emphasise a word, but it's not really part of normal speech.
OK, I defer to your knowledge of French, which is undoubtedly much
better than mine.
Also,
it's not done by vibrating the tip of the tongue. It's a
back-of-the-throat trill.
Yes, the uvula. I know. It's what I call a rolled R, not a trilled R.
To me, trilling is done with the tip of the tongue. I'm still very poor
at rolling Rs, but I've gotten better at vibrating my uvula by trying to
roll a G rather than an R.
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-03-19 15:27:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking a
language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German (I know
a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I asked him
what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian French. It didn't
sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when
an English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French)
and call the French of France "True French".

The difference is not only the pronunciation, but also the
vocabulary. The "oral attitude [of Canadian French] is more
mollified and boring, less aggressive" according to them,
so some poeple say it makes a "sentimental comedy" out of
an aggressive movie. They say, "Quebec translations are
generally less expressive and poignant.". For one example,

|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette
|version à la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à
|en avoir honte. Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la
|version québécoise. Chacun ses goûts !

On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer
the version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,

|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage
|principal perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La
|version québécoise est plus harmonieuse et on distingue
|davantage chaque personnage, comparée à votre version qui
|grinche aux oreilles…

. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into
two different versions of French.

The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers
of French's having more contact with Canadian English.
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 15:44:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking a
language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German (I know
a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I asked him
what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian French. It didn't
sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when
an English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French)
and call the French of France "True French".
I don't despise Canadian French; I don't despise any language. When I
said "It didn't sound at all like French to me," what I meant was it
didn't sound anything like the little French I know.
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-03-19 16:16:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking a
language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German (I know
a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I asked him
what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian French. It didn't
sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when
an English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French)
and call the French of France "True French".
I don't despise Canadian French; I don't despise any language. When I
said "It didn't sound at all like French to me," what I meant was it
didn't sound anything like the little French I know.
I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
despise Canadian French.

Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
because one can learn some things about French from it.

French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the
French of Quebec:
- English names are pronounced with an American accent,
- some English words are not translated at all,
- the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to
help listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture,
- "condom" instead of "preservatif",
"ton party" instead of "ta fête",
"ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and
- different pronunciations of some words.

French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the
French of France:
- the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
haughty, and
- full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
"briefing", "weekend".
Graham
2021-03-19 18:26:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
despise Canadian French.
Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
because one can learn some things about French from it.
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the
- English names are pronounced with an American accent,
- some English words are not translated at all,
- the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to
help listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture,
- "condom" instead of "preservatif",
"ton party" instead of "ta fête",
"ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and
- different pronunciations of some words.
French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the
- the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
haughty, and
- full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
"briefing", "weekend".
Also:
"Cherche un job"
"Faire du shopping"

However, unlike France, "Stop" signs are "Arrêt"!!
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 03:17:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Stefan Ram
I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
despise Canadian French.
Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
because one can learn some things about French from it.
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the
- English names are pronounced with an American accent,
- some English words are not translated at all,
- the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to
help listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture,
- "condom" instead of "preservatif",
"ton party" instead of "ta fête",
"ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and
- different pronunciations of some words.
French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the
- the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
haughty, and
- full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
"briefing", "weekend".
"Cherche un job"
"Faire du shopping"
However, unlike France, "Stop" signs are "Arrêt"!!
A difference I've noticed is in the use of swear-words. The French focus
on body parts. The Canadians seem to prefer religious words.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:16:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Stefan Ram
I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
despise Canadian French.
Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
because one can learn some things about French from it.
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the
- English names are pronounced with an American accent,
- some English words are not translated at all,
- the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to
help listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture,
- "condom" instead of "preservatif",
"ton party" instead of "ta fête",
"ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and
- different pronunciations of some words.
French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the
- the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
haughty, and
- full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
"briefing", "weekend".
"Cherche un job"
"Faire du shopping"
However, unlike France, "Stop" signs are "Arrêt"!!
A difference I've noticed is in the use of swear-words. The French
focus on body parts. The Canadians seem to prefer religious words.
If you shouted out "tabernacle" in France people would look at you oddly.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
CDB
2021-03-20 12:53:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Stefan Ram
I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
despise Canadian French.
Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
because one can learn some things about French from it.
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the French of
Quebec: - English names are pronounced with an American
accent, - some English words are not translated at all, - the
translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to help listeners
who know English to get the original wording?), maybe because
the people in Quebec know more about American culture, -
"condom" instead of "preservatif", "ton party" instead of "ta
fête", "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and - different
pronunciations of some words.
"Blonde" is an old CF word, and probably predates any English influence:
"fair one". Its male counterpart was "cavalier", but that is well out
of date.

Nowadays you're more likely to hear "C'est mon chum" [tSVm]. Or were,
when I was still getting around.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Stefan Ram
French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the French of
France: - the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
haughty, and - full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
"briefing", "weekend".
Also: "Cherche un job" "Faire du shopping"
However, unlike France, "Stop" signs are "Arrêt"!!
And "le weekend" is "la fin de semaine".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
A difference I've noticed is in the use of swear-words. The French
focus on body parts. The Canadians seem to prefer religious
words.
If you shouted out "tabernacle" in France people would look at you oddly.
Back to Ms Masiero. In a recent episode featuring a (Belgian) character
who had spent time in Toronto (Toronto??), Marleau allowed herself a
"tabarnak" or two.

She must like to be looked at oddly.
Quinn C
2021-03-20 19:19:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Stefan Ram
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the French of
Quebec: - English names are pronounced with an American
accent, - some English words are not translated at all, - the
translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to help listeners
who know English to get the original wording?), maybe because
the people in Quebec know more about American culture, -
This is a bit speculative, but I think that's a big issue the other way
round: With French of France dubbing, the Quebecois will feel like it's
not in North America any more. Making the US more foreign than it is to
them.
Post by CDB
Post by Stefan Ram
"condom" instead of "preservatif", "ton party" instead of "ta
fête", "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and - different
pronunciations of some words.
"fair one". Its male counterpart was "cavalier", but that is well out
of date.
Nowadays you're more likely to hear "C'est mon chum" [tSVm]. Or were,
when I was still getting around.
Still the standard term.
--
The only BS around here is butternut squash, one of the dozens of
varieties of squash I grow. I hope you like squash.
-- Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, S01E10
Peter Moylan
2021-03-21 00:43:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Stefan Ram
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the French of
Quebec: - English names are pronounced with an American
accent, - some English words are not translated at all, - the
translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to help listeners
who know English to get the original wording?), maybe because
the people in Quebec know more about American culture, -
"condom" instead of "preservatif", "ton party" instead of "ta
fête", "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and - different
pronunciations of some words.
"fair one". Its male counterpart was "cavalier", but that is well out
of date.
Auprès de ma blonde,
Qu'il fait bon, fait bon, fait bon.

17th century, I believe, but still sung today.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
CDB
2021-03-21 13:16:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Stefan Ram
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the French
of Quebec: - English names are pronounced with an American
accent, - some English words are not translated at all, -
the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to help
listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture, - "condom" instead of "preservatif", "ton party"
instead of "ta fête", "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine",
and - different pronunciations of some words.
"Blonde" is an old CF word, and probably predates any English
influence: "fair one". Its male counterpart was "cavalier", but
that is well out of date.
Auprès de ma blonde, Qu'il fait bon, fait bon, fait bon.
17th century, I believe, but still sung today.
Certainly still well-known. maybe that's why the word survibed.
Quinn C
2021-03-21 15:04:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by CDB
Post by Stefan Ram
French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the French
of Quebec: - English names are pronounced with an American
accent, - some English words are not translated at all, -
the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to help
listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
culture, - "condom" instead of "preservatif", "ton party"
instead of "ta fête", "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine",
and - different pronunciations of some words.
"Blonde" is an old CF word, and probably predates any English
influence: "fair one". Its male counterpart was "cavalier", but
that is well out of date.
Auprès de ma blonde, Qu'il fait bon, fait bon, fait bon.
17th century, I believe, but still sung today.
Certainly still well-known. maybe that's why the word survibed.
Auprès de ma blonde is the name of a drinking place here.
--
Just because we had a thing for 150 years, don't presume that
you know me.
-- Darla, Angel S02E09
Graham
2021-03-20 15:14:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
   I did not mean to imply that you are one of those people who
   despise Canadian French.
   Still, I find the debate between those groups interesting
   because one can learn some things about French from it.
   French speakers of France about movies dubbed in the
     - English names are pronounced with an American accent,
     - some English words are not translated at all,
     - the translations from AmE are more literal (maybe to
       help listeners who know English to get the original wording?),
       maybe because the people in Quebec know more about American
       culture,
     - "condom" instead of "preservatif",
       "ton party" instead of "ta fête",
       "ta blonde" instead of "ta copine", and
     - different pronunciations of some words.
   French speakers of Quebec about movies dubbed in the
     - the voices are too high, they sound stupid and
       haughty, and
     - full of anglicisms: "jogging", "parking lot",
       "briefing", "weekend".
"Cherche un job"
"Faire du shopping"
However, unlike France, "Stop" signs are "Arrêt"!!
A difference I've noticed is in the use of swear-words. The French focus
on body parts. The Canadians seem to prefer religious words.
French-Canadians, please!!!
I wonder if it is a result of the "stranglehold" on Quebec life by the
Catholic Church until the 60s.
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-20 19:38:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
A difference I've noticed is in the use of swear-words. The French focus
on body parts. The Canadians seem to prefer religious words.
Back in the good old days, people swore by referring to various bits of
holy anatomy.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
CDB
2021-03-19 19:00:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking
a language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German
(I know a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I
asked him what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian
French. It didn't sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when an
English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French) and call the
French of France "True French".
The difference is not only the pronunciation, but also the
vocabulary. The "oral attitude [of Canadian French] is more mollified
and boring, less aggressive" according to them, so some poeple say it
makes a "sentimental comedy" out of an aggressive movie. They say,
"Quebec translations are generally less expressive and poignant.".
For one example,
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette |version à
la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en avoir honte.
Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version québécoise.
Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage |principal
perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version québécoise est
plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque personnage,
comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers of French's
having more contact with Canadian English.
One of the things that make Canadian French hard for les Français de la
France is that it has a stress-accent: vowels are sometimes suppressed
in places they don't expect. I imagine that is borrowed from les Anglais.
--
Pas ceux de l'Angleterre, d'ailleurs.
Graham
2021-03-19 19:07:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking
a language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German
(I know a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I
asked him what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian
French. It didn't sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when an
English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French) and call the
French of France "True French".
The difference is not only the pronunciation, but also the vocabulary.
The "oral attitude [of Canadian French] is more mollified
and boring, less aggressive" according to them, so some poeple say it
makes a "sentimental comedy" out of an aggressive movie. They say,
"Quebec translations are generally less expressive and poignant.".
For one example,
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette |version à
la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en avoir honte.
Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version québécoise.
Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage |principal
perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version québécoise est
plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque personnage,
comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers of French's
having more contact with Canadian English.
One of the things that make Canadian French hard for les Français de la
France is that it has a stress-accent: vowels are sometimes suppressed
in places they don't expect. I imagine that is borrowed from les Anglais.
Possibly but it is also descended from an 17th and 18th Century regional
French dialects.
CDB
2021-03-19 20:00:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by CDB
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone
speaking a language I couldn't understand. It sounded something
like German (I know a little German), but I couldn't make out a
single word. I asked him what language it was, and it turned
out to be Canadian French. It didn't sound at all like French
to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when an
English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French) and call
the French of France "True French".
The difference is not only the pronunciation, but also the
vocabulary. The "oral attitude [of Canadian French] is more
mollified and boring, less aggressive" according to them, so some
poeple say it makes a "sentimental comedy" out of an aggressive
movie. They say, "Quebec translations are generally less
expressive and poignant.". For one example,
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette
|version à la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en
avoir honte. Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version
québécoise. Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage
|principal perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version
québécoise est plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque
personnage, comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers of
French's having more contact with Canadian English.
One of the things that make Canadian French hard for les Français
de la France is that it has a stress-accent: vowels are sometimes
suppressed in places they don't expect. I imagine that is borrowed
from les Anglais.
Possibly but it is also descended from an 17th and 18th Century
regional French dialects.
I would suppose the same is true of Academy French. I have read that
the French of New France was praised in colonial times, because the
speakers of different Frenches had managed to drop the more difficult
features of their dialects and speak a kind of standard language.
Ken Blake
2021-03-19 21:16:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking
a language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German
(I know a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I
asked him what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian
French. It didn't sound at all like French to me.
Some people seem to despise Canadian French (especially when an
English-language movie is dubbed into Canadian French) and call the
French of France "True French".
The difference is not only the pronunciation, but also the
vocabulary. The "oral attitude [of Canadian French] is more mollified
and boring, less aggressive" according to them, so some poeple say it
makes a "sentimental comedy" out of an aggressive movie. They say,
"Quebec translations are generally less expressive and poignant.".
For one example,
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette |version à
la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en avoir honte.
Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version québécoise.
Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage |principal
perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version québécoise est
plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque personnage,
comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
I don't like dubbibg. I greatly prefer subtitles.
--
Ken
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:03:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
[ … ]
Post by Stefan Ram
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette |version à
la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en avoir honte.
Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version québécoise.
Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage |principal
perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version québécoise est
plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque personnage,
comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers of French's
having more contact with Canadian English.
One of the things that make Canadian French hard for les Français de la
France is that it has a stress-accent: vowels are sometimes suppressed
in places they don't expect. I imagine that is borrowed from les Anglais.
The other day there was a interview on television with a young man
(well known, I understand, in some circles, but unfortunately I can't
remember his name.) He was introduced as French, but as soon as he
started speaking I felt sure he was Canadian. Apparently I was wrong: I
couldn't find any evidence of a Canadian background.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
CDB
2021-03-20 12:59:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by CDB
[ … ]
Post by Stefan Ram
|Je n’aime pas du tout l’accent québécois, sans compter ses
|anglicismes ( le mot condom par exemple) ni ses expressions
|incompréhensibles. Je suis Française et je préfère cette
|version à la version québécoise, et j’assume, je n’ai pas à |en
avoir honte. Pour moi, ce qui est « à gerber », c’est la |version
québécoise. Chacun ses goûts !
On the other hand, many French speakers of Canadian prefer the
version dubbed into Canadian French, e.g., saying,
|Je suis québécoise et je peux vous dire que le personnage
|principal perd toute ses couleurs avec cette voix! La |version
québécoise est plus harmonieuse et on distingue |davantage chaque
personnage, comparée à votre version qui |grinche aux oreilles…
. So, to satisfy everyone, movies need to be dubbed into two
different versions of French.
The dubbing might also be influenced by Canadian speakers of
French's having more contact with Canadian English.
One of the things that make Canadian French hard for les Français
de la France is that it has a stress-accent: vowels are sometimes
suppressed in places they don't expect. I imagine that is borrowed
from les Anglais.
The other day there was a interview on television with a young man
(well known, I understand, in some circles, but unfortunately I can't
remember his name.) He was introduced as French, but as soon as he
I couldn't find any evidence of a Canadian background.
When my father was first in France at the end of the war, an old Norman
man asked him what part of the province he came from. At that time he
was probably still speaking the Franco-American French of his youth,
before his stay in Paris smoothed down some of the edges.
Quinn C
2021-03-19 22:00:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I remember once being a on a cruise where I heard someone speaking a
language I couldn't understand. It sounded something like German (I know
a little German), but I couldn't make out a single word. I asked him
what language it was, and it turned out to be Canadian French. It didn't
sound at all like French to me.
This happens regularly to me here in Montreal. I hear a few words on the
street and think it might be German, and then it turns out to be French.
Never English. So I guess there is something to it.
--
... why the English language is riddled with all this gender.
What's it FOR? How did it GET there? Will it go AWAY now please?
-- Helen Zaltzman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-19 15:14:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)
To add to the above pairs, Venezky (whose 1966 Stanford dissertation
was based on his 1962 Cornell M.A. -- ,maybe you knew him? He was
close to Hockett) givves mediocre/mediocrity, precocious/precocity,
and verbose/verbosity for o. His work is corpus-based: he used the
Thorndike list of the 20,000 most frequent words in English, excluding
proper names. (How do they know where to draw the line? The counts
for #19,999 and #20,001 would almost have to be identical for any
corpus that could be handled in the 1940x or 1950s.)
I'm not sure what your point is here.
I hadn't had any o examples!
However, the alternations are certainly not limited to the "trisyllabic"
pattern! Can you deny that angel/angelic state/static, hygiene/hygienic
athlete/athletic, cycle/cyclic paralyze/paralytic, cone/conic(al) neurosis/
neurotic; collide/collision decide/decision provide/provision are paired
in speakers' mental lexicons?
Actually I think some of those are trisyllabic. And I would not think
In Jespersen's (1909) sense, but not in the C&H SPE rule invoked earlier.
state/static a very likely pair. But, as I said elsewhere, no doubt
people connect many of these pairs of words, on the basis of meaning and
partial similarity of form. The issue is whether they derive the
alternating morphemes from a single underlying representation.
Again I say, it's highly likely that this is a routine experiment in
psycholinguistics classes, but I have no idea how to investigate
the literature for any reports.
This brings up another reason for skepticism about SPE. Chomsky
repeatedly emphasized (as part of his argument for innateness) that
children have internalized the basic rules of English syntax by the age
of five or so. But the evidence supporting SPE underlying forms consists
almost entirely of words not known to the average five-year-old.
Grammar stops with the end of the Critical Period. Vocabulary acquisition
continues through a lifetime.
Yes, that's why I asked you.
Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.
We're not talking about spelling here.
Of course we are. Didn't you ever notice that SPE's "underlying forms"
are for the most part the same as modern orthography?
That might be an interesting observation, if true. But Chomsky and Halle
are not talking about spelling, either.
They don't _admit_ it, but it was perfectly obvious, at the time and now,
that that was where their analysis came from.
I only heard that from their critics. I think it is true only in the
sense that the spelling preserves some aspects of earlier English
pronunciation (such as unshifted vowels).
Well, who but the critics would point out the invisibility of their clothes?
Halle had even based the banishment of the phoneme on the Russian
alphabet.
He did? Perhaps he had orthographic arguments too, but his pivotal
example involved voicing assimilation, which is an actual aspect of
Russian phonology.
And what led him to notice that? You probably haven't read *The Sound
Pattern of Russian* (1959), either.
But are you suggesting that
English spelling would be improved if we re-spelled "profundity" as
"profoundity" (or perhaps "profound" as "profund") and so on?
Presumably all the vowel letters were busy indicating all the
other "long" vowels, so the Early Middle English scribes had to do
a digraph for that one.
An interesting historical observation, but not an answer to my question.
I don't do spelling reform. I argue vociferously against it, except maybe
regarding dropping the b in debt and doubt and the c in scissor, which
were based on mistaken notions about the etymologies of those words
(and a few others).
I know. But your vociferous arguments emphasize the supposed superior
efficiency of morphophonemic spelling. It would seem to follow that the
system as a whole would be improved if morphophonemics were more
consistently applied.
There's nothing to be done about that.

You still haven't acknowledged the validity of the Dual-Route Theory.
Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud
(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
Ross Clark
2021-03-19 22:00:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)
To add to the above pairs, Venezky (whose 1966 Stanford dissertation
was based on his 1962 Cornell M.A. -- ,maybe you knew him? He was
close to Hockett) givves mediocre/mediocrity, precocious/precocity,
and verbose/verbosity for o. His work is corpus-based: he used the
Thorndike list of the 20,000 most frequent words in English, excluding
proper names. (How do they know where to draw the line? The counts
for #19,999 and #20,001 would almost have to be identical for any
corpus that could be handled in the 1940x or 1950s.)
I'm not sure what your point is here.
I hadn't had any o examples!
However, the alternations are certainly not limited to the "trisyllabic"
pattern! Can you deny that angel/angelic state/static, hygiene/hygienic
athlete/athletic, cycle/cyclic paralyze/paralytic, cone/conic(al) neurosis/
neurotic; collide/collision decide/decision provide/provision are paired
in speakers' mental lexicons?
Actually I think some of those are trisyllabic. And I would not think
In Jespersen's (1909) sense, but not in the C&H SPE rule invoked earlier.
state/static a very likely pair. But, as I said elsewhere, no doubt
people connect many of these pairs of words, on the basis of meaning and
partial similarity of form. The issue is whether they derive the
alternating morphemes from a single underlying representation.
Again I say, it's highly likely that this is a routine experiment in
psycholinguistics classes, but I have no idea how to investigate
the literature for any reports.
In the aftermath of SPE, Robert Krohn and others did some such
experiments, which did not support the reality of SPE underlying
structures. If contrary results have subsequently been found, I'd be
very interested to hear about it.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This brings up another reason for skepticism about SPE. Chomsky
repeatedly emphasized (as part of his argument for innateness) that
children have internalized the basic rules of English syntax by the age
of five or so. But the evidence supporting SPE underlying forms consists
almost entirely of words not known to the average five-year-old.
Grammar stops with the end of the Critical Period. Vocabulary acquisition
continues through a lifetime.
Of course. But we're talking about phonological rules and underlying
representations. The evidence on which speakers are supposed to base
such rules and representations consists of vocabulary many speakers
don't acquire until their teens. On what basis would a five-year-old set
up underlying /ū/ for the vowel in "out", "house", "clown" etc.?
SPE requires us to accept that people go on tinkering with their
phonology, adding major rules, revising underlying forms, well past the
Critical Period, in a way not thought possible for syntax.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Yes, that's why I asked you.
Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.
We're not talking about spelling here.
Of course we are. Didn't you ever notice that SPE's "underlying forms"
are for the most part the same as modern orthography?
That might be an interesting observation, if true. But Chomsky and Halle
are not talking about spelling, either.
They don't _admit_ it, but it was perfectly obvious, at the time and now,
that that was where their analysis came from.
I only heard that from their critics. I think it is true only in the
sense that the spelling preserves some aspects of earlier English
pronunciation (such as unshifted vowels).
Well, who but the critics would point out the invisibility of their clothes?
On this point, I think the critics were wrong. And the idea that they
were "really" writing about spelling, not phonology, is just bizarre.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Halle had even based the banishment of the phoneme on the Russian
alphabet.
He did? Perhaps he had orthographic arguments too, but his pivotal
example involved voicing assimilation, which is an actual aspect of
Russian phonology.
And what led him to notice that? You probably haven't read *The Sound
Pattern of Russian* (1959), either.
So he got the idea from some aspect of Russian orthography. So what?
He did not "base the banishment of the phoneme on the Russian alphabet".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But are you suggesting that
English spelling would be improved if we re-spelled "profundity" as
"profoundity" (or perhaps "profound" as "profund") and so on?
Presumably all the vowel letters were busy indicating all the
other "long" vowels, so the Early Middle English scribes had to do
a digraph for that one.
An interesting historical observation, but not an answer to my question.
I don't do spelling reform. I argue vociferously against it, except maybe
regarding dropping the b in debt and doubt and the c in scissor, which
were based on mistaken notions about the etymologies of those words
(and a few others).
I know. But your vociferous arguments emphasize the supposed superior
efficiency of morphophonemic spelling. It would seem to follow that the
system as a whole would be improved if morphophonemics were more
consistently applied.
There's nothing to be done about that.
So while you pretend to argue against spelling reform on the basis of
specialist knowledge, it is really just primal conservatism that
motivates you.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
You still haven't acknowledged the validity of the Dual-Route Theory.
I didn't know I'd been asked to.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud
(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-19 15:21:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The only magazine that has been in our house in recent times is
"Vanity Fair". When I do pick up a copy, I start at the beginning and
actually read the articles.
Our public library has a room where they sell used books donated by
patrons. They sell a bundle of three "Vanity Fair" magazines for
$1.00 or single issues for 50 cents each. It's not a magazine in
which the articles become dated, so a even a six-month old copy is
current enough.
It certainly must have changed, then. I subscribed when Graydon
Carter was the editor because it was filled with excellent political
reporting (alongside the predominant glitterati gossip). (That was
after Tina Brown had just about ruined it and moved on to destroy
The New Yorker and Newsweek ) After whichever election it was,
it reverted to nothing but upper-class fashion. And it kept coming
and coming after I stopped renewing.
occam
2021-03-19 15:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-19 19:08:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-20 00:59:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,
Would in not be easier to mention places which did not have
"unacceptable masculinist rules about inheritance"?
(There must be some.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:05:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,
Would in not be easier to mention places which did not have
"unacceptable masculinist rules about inheritance"?
(There must be some.)
Catalonia, apparently, and Kerala.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-21 10:52:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,
Would in not be easier to mention places which did not have
"unacceptable masculinist rules about inheritance"?
(There must be some.)
Like England?

Jan
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-21 13:16:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,
Would in not be easier to mention places which did not have
"unacceptable masculinist rules about inheritance"?
(There must be some.)
Like England?
Jan
??
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-21 14:00:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by occam
Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in
French or Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and
Namur. Bruges is ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the
French name, but it looks strange to see a French name in the
middle of a sea of Dutch names.
Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation...
Um, that *is* its name in English.
Hmm, so it is. All this time I've been calling it Luxemburg.
In agreement with most of its inhabitants,
Ah, the burgers of Luxembourg. They didn't even have the imagination to
create an original flag of their own.
Why should they?
They were part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
and got out by some quite unacceptable masculinist rules
about inheritance,
Would in not be easier to mention places which did not have
"unacceptable masculinist rules about inheritance"?
(There must be some.)
Like England?
Jan
??
England, and later Britain did have queens occasionally.
When Willem III, king of the Netherlands and grand-duke of Luxembourg,
died in 1890 his daughter Wilhelmina could succeed him
as queen of the Netherlands, but not as grand-duchess of Luxembourg.
So someone from another line of the Nassau family became grand-duke.
But they kept the flag,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-19 16:52:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of
seem to be alive and well.
Then you forget that the Olympic coverage was from "Torino".
I saw the shroud of Turin in Torino. I have to say it that way
because I don't know the Italian word for "shroud".
Nowadays you only get to see a replica.
But it's just as genuine as the original.
Of course not. The original was an original work of art,
Jan
First photo?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-19 19:06:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of
seem to be alive and well.
Then you forget that the Olympic coverage was from "Torino".
I saw the shroud of Turin in Torino. I have to say it that way
because I don't know the Italian word for "shroud".
Nowadays you only get to see a replica.
But it's just as genuine as the original.
Of course not. The original was an original work of art,
Jan
First photo?
It would have been worth far more if they had thought to get him to sign it.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-19 17:02:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 00:05:56 GMT, Peter Moylan
Someone[']s (Newsreader's) only gorn and messed it up.
Yes, you're always going to have trouble with non-ASCII characters
produced by a newsreader that's set to use UTF-8, because your software
doesn't understand UTF-8.
a-e æ copyright © UKP £ o-e œ
That all looks good at my end. I'm surprised that the o-e ligature
worked; it should not have, but it looks as if my Thunderbird is willing
to display that "illegal" block of Windows-1252 characters.
The presence of the o-e ligature might, however, force my Thunderbird to
switch over to using a different character set to accommodate it. If so,
my quoting of your article might look garbled to you.
Yes, the oe didn't look good, until I opened the post for reply!
Thanks for your help and the patience of those with modern Newsreaders.
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
At @
o-e œ
a-e æ
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 02:58:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
o-e œ
a-e æ
Oll korrect. I see that your posting is using iso-8859-15, which is the
same as Latin-1 except that it supports the Euro (€) symbol.

I've tried looking up MesNews but can't find out whether it can do
UTF-8. (Which, among other things, can do the IPA symbols that PTD keeps
urging you to use. But don't worry about that. We never used IPA in this
newsgroup until sci.lang collapsed and most of the linguists moved into
AUE.) But I'll raise the stakes by giving a couple of Chinese symbols:
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-20 08:12:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
Let's try: 大意
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Bill Day
2021-03-20 14:08:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:58:21 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
o-e œ
a-e æ
Oll korrect. I see that your posting is using iso-8859-15, which is the
same as Latin-1 except that it supports the Euro (€) symbol.
I've tried looking up MesNews but can't find out whether it can do
UTF-8. (Which, among other things, can do the IPA symbols that PTD keeps
urging you to use. But don't worry about that. We never used IPA in this
newsgroup until sci.lang collapsed and most of the linguists moved into
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
Because I use Agent (version 7) I monitor the group which discusses
it, and the guru there, Ralph Fox, wrote a Unicode extension which
allows posting and displaying most foreign characters and fonts.
He posted this image to show what it can do...
Loading Image...
More info. if anyone wants it.
--
remove nonsense for reply
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 18:40:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Day
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:58:21 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
I've tried looking up MesNews but can't find out whether it can do
UTF-8. (Which, among other things, can do the IPA symbols that PTD keeps
urging you to use. But don't worry about that. We never used IPA in this
newsgroup until sci.lang collapsed and most of the linguists moved into
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
Because I use Agent (version 7) I monitor the group which discusses
it, and the guru there, Ralph Fox, wrote a Unicode extension which
allows posting and displaying most foreign characters and fonts.
He posted this image to show what it can do...
https://i.imgur.com/r8nZBMm.png
More info. if anyone wants it.
But you could have viewed that properly in a newsgroup only
if you had fonts covering all those scripts installed on your
computer. That's presumably a screen capture or a pdf.
Bill Day
2021-03-21 02:42:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Bill Day
On Sat, 20 Mar 2021 13:58:21 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
I've tried looking up MesNews but can't find out whether it can do
UTF-8. (Which, among other things, can do the IPA symbols that PTD keeps
urging you to use. But don't worry about that. We never used IPA in this
newsgroup until sci.lang collapsed and most of the linguists moved into
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
Because I use Agent (version 7) I monitor the group which discusses
it, and the guru there, Ralph Fox, wrote a Unicode extension which
allows posting and displaying most foreign characters and fonts.
He posted this image to show what it can do...
https://i.imgur.com/r8nZBMm.png
More info. if anyone wants it.
But you could have viewed that properly in a newsgroup only
if you had fonts covering all those scripts installed on your
computer. That's presumably a screen capture or a pdf.
I have many fonts, (maybe 8-9000).. but that's just a bunch of
examples from the guy who wrote the extension... to show that the
thing works. It lets me see almost all the symbols and characters from
commonly used languages that are likely to be seen here.
The point is, in Agent, IF someone writes in some uncommon language,
they CAN post in almost any script.
--
remove nonsense for reply
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 18:37:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
o-e œ
a-e æ
Oll korrect. I see that your posting is using iso-8859-15, which is the
same as Latin-1 except that it supports the Euro (€) symbol.
I've tried looking up MesNews but can't find out whether it can do
UTF-8. (Which, among other things, can do the IPA symbols that PTD keeps
urging you to use. But don't worry about that. We never used IPA in this
newsgroup until sci.lang collapsed and most of the linguists moved into
大意
If you can duplicate that in your own post, then you can handle UTF-8.
I have no objection to ASCII IPA.

All I want is for Luddites to stop pretending phonetic notation is "too
hard" for them to learn or do.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-20 10:28:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 00:05:56 GMT, Peter Moylan
Someone[']s (Newsreader's) only gorn and messed it up.
Yes, you're always going to have trouble with non-ASCII characters
produced by a newsreader that's set to use UTF-8, because your
software doesn't understand UTF-8.
a-e æ copyright © UKP £ o-e œ
That all looks good at my end. I'm surprised that the o-e ligature
worked; it should not have, but it looks as if my Thunderbird is
willing to display that "illegal" block of Windows-1252 characters.
The presence of the o-e ligature might, however, force my
Thunderbird to switch over to using a different character set to
accommodate it. If so, my quoting of your article might look
garbled to you.
Yes, the oe didn't look good, until I opened the post for reply!
Thanks for your help and the patience of those with modern
Newsreaders.
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
o-e ½
a-e æ
Back to Xnews; o-e shows as a half [1/2]

MesNews says it supports UTF but the help is in French; I can't see how
[if?] to split the window view; nor to hide/delete Read messages/Spam.
I'm also having to download & wade through a lot of old posts.

So I'm back to Old Faithful for now.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Snidely
2021-03-20 21:12:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 00:05:56 GMT, Peter Moylan
Someone[']s (Newsreader's) only gorn and messed it up.
Yes, you're always going to have trouble with non-ASCII characters
produced by a newsreader that's set to use UTF-8, because your
software doesn't understand UTF-8.
a-e æ copyright © UKP £ o-e œ
That all looks good at my end. I'm surprised that the o-e ligature
worked; it should not have, but it looks as if my Thunderbird is
willing to display that "illegal" block of Windows-1252 characters.
The presence of the o-e ligature might, however, force my
Thunderbird to switch over to using a different character set to
accommodate it. If so, my quoting of your article might look
garbled to you.
Yes, the oe didn't look good, until I opened the post for reply!
Thanks for your help and the patience of those with modern
Newsreaders.
I'm trying MesNews as I mentioned somewehere in a thread I can't track
down.
UKP £
o-e ½
a-e æ
Back to Xnews; o-e shows as a half [1/2]
MesNews says it supports UTF but the help is in French; I can't see how
[if?] to split the window view; nor to hide/delete Read messages/Spam.
Split the window view? The basic view I have is with a vertical panel
on the left for servers/newsgroups as a tree (you know at least 1 of
the TONG shown), and the right side is two windows split horizontally
with subject lines (default tree view) in the upper and current message
in the lower.

The HELP menu is in English, and "MesNews help page" links to
<URL:http://www.mesnews.net/aide.php>
and then language detection (or geography detection via IP) forwards
that to
<URL:http://www.mesnews.net/gb/aide.php>
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm also having to download & wade through a lot of old posts.
Download and mark all as read. Then only read the posts that come
after.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
So I'm back to Old Faithful for now.
Sorry, I'm bitter about my experience with XNews, even before the
question of extended character sets came up.

/dps
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-21 12:24:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In plainish text?
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
MesNews says it supports UTF but the help is in French; I can't see how
[if?] to split the window view; nor to hide/delete Read messages/Spam.
Split the window view? The basic view I have is with a vertical panel
on the left for servers/newsgroups as a tree (you know at least 1 of
the TONG shown), and the right side is two windows split horizontally
with subject lines (default tree view) in the upper and current message
in the lower.
Yes. I'm used to Xnews with subject threaded tree on left panel and
current post on rhs; (the server/group list is in a separate pane
behind).
Post by Snidely
The HELP menu is in English, and "MesNews help page" links to
<URL:http://www.mesnews.net/aide.php>
and then language detection (or geography detection via IP) forwards
that to
<URL:http://www.mesnews.net/gb/aide.php>
OK, sorry, I think it was the forum I looked at.
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I'm also having to download & wade through a lot of old posts.
Download and mark all as read. Then only read the posts that come
after.
Yeah I guess, but but I won't find this thread! or KF the trolls.
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
So I'm back to Old Faithful for now.
Sorry, I'm bitter about my experience with XNews, even before the
question of extended character sets came up.
Oh dear.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Graham
2021-03-19 20:28:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.
?? Who would put an r into "Dame"?
Note that it's Graham, a non-rhotic speaker, who spelt it that way.
I figure this is the slight alteration from a proper short "a" to an RP
"r-controlled a", not an actual rhotic "r".
I've been gently trying for years to get our Brits to stop using r as a
diacritic to indicate something-or-other about a preceding vowel.
and they generally comply. Graham, however, is new.
Yes, I am and I joined to see what foibles were being discussed as I
have been recording some of the horrendous misuses by people in the news
media. I didn't know the extent to which "heiroglyphics" were employed
to discuss pronunciations, hence my naive attempts.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-20 03:24:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Yes, I am and I joined to see what foibles were being discussed as I
have been recording some of the horrendous misuses by people in the
news media. I didn't know the extent to which "heiroglyphics" were
employed to discuss pronunciations, hence my naive attempts.
I'm going to get some criticism here from the linguists, but I suggest
that you look up "Kirshenbaum IPA". A good starting point is

https://www.alt-usage-english.org/ascii_ipa_choice.html

That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it used to
be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many of us find it
far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Mark Brader
2021-03-20 06:17:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it used to
be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many of us find it
far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
And others can't be bothered to read postings that use either notation.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto, ***@vex.net
"I am good at fooling myself into believing that what I wrote
is what I meant. I am also good at fooling myself into believing
that what I meant is what I should have meant." --Kent Beck
CDB
2021-03-20 13:04:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Peter Moylan
That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it
used to be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many
of us find it far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
And others can't be bothered to read postings that use either
notation.
These days, I usually present a pronunciation in "naive" notation and
then in ERK* IPA.

The customer is always right.
--
*Evan R Kirshenbaum, that is.
Graham
2021-03-20 17:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Yes, I am and I joined to see what foibles were being discussed as I
 have been recording some of the horrendous misuses by people in the
news media. I didn't know the extent to which "heiroglyphics" were
employed to discuss pronunciations, hence my naive attempts.
I'm going to get some criticism here from the linguists, but I suggest
that you look up "Kirshenbaum IPA". A good starting point is
    https://www.alt-usage-english.org/ascii_ipa_choice.html
That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it used to
be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many of us find it
far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
Thanks for the link. I'll be careful in future.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-21 01:02:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Yes, I am and I joined to see what foibles were being discussed
as I have been recording some of the horrendous misuses by
people in the news media. I didn't know the extent to which
"heiroglyphics" were employed to discuss pronunciations, hence
my naive attempts.
I'm going to get some criticism here from the linguists, but I
suggest that you look up "Kirshenbaum IPA". A good starting point
is
https://www.alt-usage-english.org/ascii_ipa_choice.html
That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it
used to be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many
of us find it far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
Thanks for the link. I'll be careful in future.
Historically, we adopted that notation - or some of us did - after
discovering that descriptions using "sounds like" or "rhymes with" are
sometimes close to useless. To know what those things mean, you'd have
to be familiar with the writer's dialect.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 18:38:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Yes, I am and I joined to see what foibles were being discussed as I
have been recording some of the horrendous misuses by people in the
news media. I didn't know the extent to which "heiroglyphics" were
employed to discuss pronunciations, hence my naive attempts.
I'm going to get some criticism here from the linguists,
wrong
Post by Peter Moylan
but I suggest
that you look up "Kirshenbaum IPA". A good starting point is
https://www.alt-usage-english.org/ascii_ipa_choice.html
That's a phonetic notation that uses only ASCII letters, and it used to
be the only phonetic notation used in this newsgroup. Many of us find it
far easier to use than true IPA symbols.
Good luck trying to get Athel to switch back. That's where this
particular subthread started.
Quinn C
2021-03-19 21:59:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 11:32:33 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people mispronounce
things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other
day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at
the end.
Remind me of something.
Is French as emphatdically non-rhotic as RP in all instances of an
"r" in the word, or only at the end?
Because otherwise it would make some amount of sense to hear a mildly
rhotic "r" (not the West Country R) before the "t" but not at the
end. Not /total/ sense, of course, because the "e" *should* suggest a
consonant that doesn't get dropped, but I can see where the
presenter might have THOUGHT that was proper French.
A French 'r' is much less emphatic than an English 'r'. It is pronounced
far back on the tongue, in a similar position to the [x] of a German
achlaut, but with rather less constriction. If you're not used to
hearing that sound, then a French "repertoire" might sound like
"wepetwa". In fact all three 'r' sounds are present, they're just
somewhat subtle.
In short, French is not at all non-rhotic, it just has a rather quiet
'r' sound.
(That's for the French of France. Canadian French sounds a bit more
guttural to me, but I haven't heard enough samples to be sure of that.
The various African Frenches are more different again.)
Guttural? I don't know. I originally learned European French, although I
never took it at school, and had only one year of "adult French for
traveling", not very intensive.

After coming to Montreal, it took me a few years to clearly hear the
difference between Canadian and French French; I was just too busy
understanding words. But at that point, my perception had turned around,
and it's the French who have "an accent". (Educated) Quebec French is
now the "normal" for me. From that vantage point, the best overall
description for how the French speak is that they just can't get their
mouth open. I think that means they speak most of their vowels more back
than the locals.
Ken mentioned a strong rolled R. Singers do that, and speakers who want
to emphasise a word, but it's not really part of normal speech. Also,
it's not done by vibrating the tip of the tongue. It's a
back-of-the-throat trill.
Various accents in Quebec, including the Montreal one, used to include a
tongue-trilled r. But you rarely hear that any more in the city.

Like so much about Canadian French, this probably reflects an earlier
stage of French. Not necessarily the Parisian one.
--
There is no freedom for men unless there is freedom for women.
If women mustn't bring their will to the fore, why should men
be allowed to?
-- Hedwig Dohm (1876), my translation
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-20 14:34:52 UTC
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The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
When are they called grades?
In Indo-European studies.
Hindi sundar (beautiful) and saundram (beauty) have a [U]-[aU] slternation that seem to be called grades of vowel when describing Sanskrit, the source of these words.
IE has e-grade, o-grade, and zero-grade versions of each root.

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