Discussion:
German pronunciation
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Tony Cooper
2021-03-15 15:35:37 UTC
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Permalink
This video:
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/

will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.

I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.

I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.

I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.

Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Ken Blake
2021-03-15 15:42:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-03-15 15:48:54 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
I say it the same way you do. It's not a surprise to me that some people
say "pro-nownce-ee-ation," but I don't remember ever hearing it.
"Pronounciation" was actually spelled and pronounced this
way ("-noun-") since the 16th century, among other variants
such as "pronunciation," but today it is rarely found.

In dictionaries from 1899, 1911, and 1934, I only find
"pronunciation".

The spelling "pronounciation" today is considered as wrong
by almost everyone, while the pronunciation with [-naʊn-]
occasionally occurs and is rarely considered incorrect,
although [-nʌn-] is certainly standard.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-15 15:48:28 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-15 16:17:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-15 16:37:05 UTC
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Permalink
[pronunciation]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time
s
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
and have to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc.
A native example is south/southerly, southern (formerly sutherne), according
to Wikipedia.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Myopic/myopia, dystonic/dystonia... wait a second.
--
Jerry Friedman
Blow the wind southerly, southerly, southerly...
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 10:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-16 10:52:33 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?

Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?

That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 11:07:47 UTC
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Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are
left as an exercise for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
or LieDl?
Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle from Lidl.

All Die or Al Dae?
Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 01:48:43 UTC
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Permalink
left as an exercise for the student.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
or LieDl? Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle
from Lidl.
All Die or Al Dae?
This seems to be a good place to insert a recommendation for "The Ballad
of Lidl and Aldi". It can be found on UTube, if anyone's interested.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 10:12:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:48:43 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Ross Clark
left as an exercise for the student.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
or LieDl? Maybe they'll have a cooking special; one could get a Ladle
from Lidl.
All Die or Al Dae?
This seems to be a good place to insert a recommendation for "The Ballad
of Lidl and Aldi". It can be found on UTube, if anyone's interested.
'tis a fine thing that and all.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-16 12:41:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.

French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-16 14:33:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 17:33:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions
are left as an exercise for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
Post by J. J. Lodder
You can't blame them.
It is not their fault that the Chinese do it all wrong,
Can't even write proper.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Jan
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 22:21:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!

In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
--
... if you're going around with a red pen and apostrophe, you're
... trying to prove your superiority over people. But if you're
going around trying to use people's correct pronouns, ... you're
trying to connect with them and ... respect them.
-- Gretchen McCulloch on Factually!
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 22:45:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 23:07:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.
One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare character
set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader to interpret it
as Unicode in that case, as best it can. When I see that that failed, I
can manually override the guessing game, but I usually don't bother. The
problem is at the sending end, after all.

I did use Xnews in my early days in this group, but as a regular user of
German groups, I found it usable only in tandem with the KorrNews local
proxy, which adds the character set declaration and does some
rudimentary conversion of incoming Unicode.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 10:19:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 10:37:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and
well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that
we're all supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in
French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his
original or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki>
appears. I thought of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but
can't find that one in my kanji dictionary.
One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare
character set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader
to interpret it
I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [� ?�������] I
don't.
The catch is that é is not a 7-bit ASCII character.
I try adding a header.
The header helps only if it tells the truth. I see that you've added a
header saying that you are using UTF-8. If you do that, you have to
manually insert the UTF-8 encoding for each non-ASCII character, which
would be a tedious exercise. As you can see above, the Chinese quarrel
came out correctly - because you quoted it from someone who did use
UTF-8 - but your accented characters didn't.

You might try using the following instead:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as Latin-1)
is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really producing.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 10:46:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 23:07:00 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and
well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that
we're all supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in
French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and
the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his
original or J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki>
appears. I thought of some rogue romaji > kanji converter, but
can't find that one in my kanji dictionary.
One of the oldest Usenet issue there is: K-M doesn't declare
character set, so we all have to guess. I instruct my newsreader
to interpret it
I use Xnews which is known to be ancient; personally I only post with
7bit ASCII, though I could get some accented chars [�
?�������] I don't.
The catch is that é is not a 7-bit ASCII character.
I try adding a header.
The header helps only if it tells the truth. I see that you've added a
header saying that you are using UTF-8. If you do that, you have to
manually insert the UTF-8 encoding for each non-ASCII character, which
would be a tedious exercise. As you can see above, the Chinese quarrel
came out correctly - because you quoted it from someone who did use
UTF-8 - but your accented characters didn't.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 11:24:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.

I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 12:14:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 11:24:06 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.
I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.
Um OK a-e I can find: æ

Another one? æ
In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e œ

truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol ©
non TT NS San Serif æ©

Looks OK going out. (But it would!)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 15:15:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 11:24:06 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:37:55 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I say that because it's possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as
Latin-1) is likely to be a fair match to what your software is really
producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of course) is
correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that, you should be good
to produce the common accented characters in German, French, and a
couple of other languages. Not some Scandinavian characters, though.
I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.
Um OK a-e I can find: æ
Another one? æ
In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e œ
truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol ©
non TT NS San Serif æ©
Looks OK going out. (But it would!)
By George, he's got it! (t that he'll know of this endorsement.)
CDB
2021-03-17 18:33:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
You might try using the following instead: MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I say that because it's
possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as Latin-1) is likely to
be a fair match to what your software is really producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of
course) is correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that,
you should be good to produce the common accented characters in
German, French, and a couple of other languages. Not some
Scandinavian characters, though. I've just remembered that an o-e
ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1 character set, although it
is included in Windows-1252. Since this discussion started with
an o-e ligature, it is possible that Windows-1252 is what your
newsreader is really producing. The two character sets differ
only in a block of 32 character positions.
Um OK a-e I can find: æ
Another one? æ In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e œ
truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol © non TT NS
San Serif æ©
Looks OK going out. (But it would!)
By George, he's got it! (t that he'll know of this endorsement.)
Oh, yes he will!
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 20:41:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
You might try using the following instead: MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I say that because it's
possible that ISO-8859-1 (also known as Latin-1) is likely to
be a fair match to what your software is really producing.
OK, thanks, I'll try that. £ á.
This time you produced a pound sign and an a-acute. Which (of
course) is correct iff that's what you intended. Based on that,
you should be good to produce the common accented characters in
German, French, and a couple of other languages. Not some
Scandinavian characters, though. I've just remembered that an o-e
ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1 character set, although it
is included in Windows-1252. Since this discussion started with
an o-e ligature, it is possible that Windows-1252 is what your
newsreader is really producing. The two character sets differ
only in a block of 32 character positions.
Um OK a-e I can find: æ
Another one? æ In the same font/charset (Vrinda) o-e œ
truetype Microsoft San Serif æ also a copyright symbol © non TT NS
San Serif æ©
Looks OK going out. (But it would!)
By George, he's got it! (t that he'll know of this endorsement.)
Oh, yes he will!
Someone[']s (Newsreader's) only gorn and messed it up.
try again:

a-e æ
copyright ©
UKP £
o-e œ
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-18 00:05:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Someone[']s (Newsreader's) only gorn and messed it up.
Yes, you're always going to have trouble with non-ASCII characters
produced by a newsreader that's set to use UTF-8, because your software
doesn't understand UTF-8.
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
a-e æ copyright © UKP £ o-e œ
That all looks good at my end. I'm surprised that the o-e ligature
worked; it should not have, but it looks as if my Thunderbird is willing
to display that "illegal" block of Windows-1252 characters.

The presence of the o-e ligature might, however, force my Thunderbird to
switch over to using a different character set to accommodate it. If so,
my quoting of your article might look garbled to you.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Quinn C
2021-03-17 14:05:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I've just remembered that an o-e ligature is not part of the iso-8859-1
character set, although it is included in Windows-1252. Since this
discussion started with an o-e ligature, it is possible that
Windows-1252 is what your newsreader is really producing. The two
character sets differ only in a block of 32 character positions.
Xnews is simply not doing anything about encoding, so it produces
whatever the underlying "code page" is, i.e. Windows-1252 on an "English
Windows", Windows-1251 when using a "Russian Windows" etc. Of course
this is all just backwards compatibility stuff at this point, because
internally, everything is Unicode, but, well, Windows.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 01:58:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
That's weird. I see it in your copy of AC-B, but not in his original or
J.J.'s or K-M's copies, where expected <éki> appears. I thought of some
rogue romaji > kanji converter, but can't find that one in my kanji
dictionary.
The usual reason. KMJ didn't specify a character set. Some people's
newsreaders guessed Latin-1, and got it right (this time). The ones that
assumed UTF-8 got it wrong.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 10:23:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-17 08:48:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
(Heading off topic)

What a marvellous, if little used, encapsulation of "quarrel"
Two lots of speech side by side, one slightly bigger than the other!
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 14:44:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still P誩n in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you're seeking quarrel!
In your post, I see the character 誩 (quarrel) between the P and the n.
I see it correctly in both the original and Mudd's quote of JJ,
but the character appears both in your quote of Mudd and in
your remark.
occam
2021-03-17 07:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually
organized in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say
"pronounciation". In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions
are left as an exercise for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names
should be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone,
But the chickens are still there.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
but all the others I can think of seem to be alive and well.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
That's a duck, not a chicken!
I think you mean "That's a dog, not a wolf!"


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56299849
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 01:53:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many
Italian cities. A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to
be alive and well.
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.

What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.

We now know better, having been exposed to Nealopitain ice cream.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
musika
2021-03-17 03:29:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.

A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.
--
Ray
UK
Mark Brader
2021-03-17 05:42:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...
Well, that makes sense.

I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "I don't know about your brain,
***@vex.net | but mine is really bossy." -- Laurie Anderson

My text in this article is in the public domain.
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 10:24:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 10:44:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to
Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Perhaps they thought the station name was "Beware of the lion", and
didn't make the connection with the city.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 17:08:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to
Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
I expect my father said "lions" -- he certainly said "Marsales". Even
anglophone people who think they know how to pronounce Lyon correctly
usually put the stress on a syllable that isn't there. The y is not a
vowel but just palatalizes the preceding L. It's the opposite of what
happens with Arabic-speaking demonstrators against the Great Satan,
which they call Amrika, so the syllable stressed in English is dropped.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Perhaps they thought the station name was "Beware of the lion", and
didn't make the connection with the city.
A highly confusing thing the SNCF do at the Gare St Charles in
Marseilles (and doubtless in other stations) is that the overhead
display for the TGV to Paris Gare de Lyon says "Paris Lyon". I imagine
most foreigners think that the train to Paris stops at Lyon, which it
doesn't. If they only want to go to Paris that's fine, but if they want
to get off in Lyon it's not fine at all. Even my daughter, who was a
student in Lyon and speaks French like a native, was once sufficiently
confused to get on such a train and found that it didn't stop until
Massy -- a very long way beyond Lyon. She lost a heck of a lot of time,
but fortunately the controller was very understanding and didn't make
her pay for the large number of extra kilometres. Probably he'd seen it
often before.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Graham
2021-03-17 17:22:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French...  A similar thing happened to
Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons".  Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
I expect my father said "lions" -- he certainly said "Marsales". Even
anglophone people who think they know how to pronounce Lyon correctly
usually put the stress on a syllable that isn't there. The y is not a
vowel but just palatalizes the preceding L. It's the opposite of what
happens with Arabic-speaking demonstrators against the Great Satan,
which they call Amrika, so the syllable stressed in English is dropped.
And then there is Reims:-)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 17:31:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French...  A similar thing happened to
Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons".  Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
I expect my father said "lions" -- he certainly said "Marsales". Even
anglophone people who think they know how to pronounce Lyon correctly
usually put the stress on a syllable that isn't there. The y is not a
vowel but just palatalizes the preceding L. It's the opposite of what
happens with Arabic-speaking demonstrators against the Great Satan,
which they call Amrika, so the syllable stressed in English is dropped.
And then there is Reims:-)
That's a lotta, lotta paper!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-17 12:13:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Jan
Yes. But they would not necessarily realise that "Lyon" was a major
place the trains went to from that station. They might guess that "Lyon"
referred to its location in Paris, or that the station was named after a
person with the surname "Lyon", etc.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 14:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Jan
Yes. But they would not necessarily realise that "Lyon" was a major
place the trains went to from that station. They might guess that "Lyon"
referred to its location in Paris, or that the station was named after a
person with the surname "Lyon", etc.
You are right. It is known from an always reliable historical source
(one that was no doubt known to Agatha)
that it was named after Richard Gare de Lyon
(or the other way round)
because Ricard was always going off to the East on crusades,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 16:29:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all
sorts of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy
too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word
"Napoli" and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian
plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French... A similar thing happened to
Naples...
Well, that makes sense.
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue
Train" (1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would
the British passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used
some half-French pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
Jan
Yes. But they would not necessarily realise that "Lyon" was a major
place the trains went to from that station. They might guess that
"Lyon" referred to its location in Paris, or that the station was
named after a person with the surname "Lyon", etc.
You are right. It is known from an always reliable historical source
(one that was no doubt known to Agatha)
that it was named after Richard Gare de Lyon
(or the other way round)
because Ricard was always going off to the East on crusades,
Horses for Coureses
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Mark Brader
2021-03-17 18:44:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
That name is in French, therefore clearly irrelevant.

Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service to at
least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de Lyon, though,
and some people got off there to stretch their legs.
--
Mark Brader | "Now you have accidentally said something valuable!"
Toronto | --Hercule Poirot:
***@vex.net | Paul Dehn, "Murder on the Orient Express" (1974)

My text in this article is in the public domain.
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 19:43:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Mark Brader
I was just reading Agatha Christie's "The Mystery of the Blue Train"
(1928), in which the train makes a stop at "Lyons". Would the British
passengers then have pronounced it "lions", or used some half-French
pronunciation like "lee-ONZ"?
Yet they knew that they had departed from 'Gare de Lyon' to get there,
That name is in French, therefore clearly irrelevant.
Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service to at
least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de Lyon, though,
and some people got off there to stretch their legs.
Really?

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-17 20:48:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
That name is in French, therefore clearly irrelevant.
Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service to at
least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de Lyon, though,
and some people got off there to stretch their legs.
No-one today would stretch their legs, but given the seat spacing in
Economy class, that's probably a good thing.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Mark Brader
2021-03-17 22:41:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Mark Brader
Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service to at
least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de Lyon, though,
and some people got off there to stretch their legs.
No-one today would stretch their legs,
Do you mean the idiom is out of date, or that the train wouldn't stop
long enough for them to? I remember exactly when was the last time
I did that -- it was in 1982. I was on the train from Chicago to Oakland
(for San Francisco), which at the time still followed the UP main line
through Wyoming, and when we stopped at Rawlins and I found we had 15
minutes to wait there, I got off for about 10 minutes -- enough to walk
a block or two away from the station, then back. If was a frigid but
sunny day and I enjoyed it.
Post by Sam Plusnet
but given the seat spacing in Economy class,
That's an airline term as far as I know. Do you mean second class,
or as the train-operating companies in Britain now euphemize it,
standard class?

In any case, none of the characters in the book were riding second
class, let alone third.
--
Mark Brader "How many pessimists end up by desiring
Toronto the things they fear, in order to prove
***@vex.net that they are right." -- Robert Mallet

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-18 00:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Mark Brader
Anyway, the train departed from Calais and was a through service
to at least as far as Nice. It did stop in Paris at the Gare de
Lyon, though, and some people got off there to stretch their
legs.
No-one today would stretch their legs,
Do you mean the idiom is out of date, or that the train wouldn't
stop long enough for them to? I remember exactly when was the last
time I did that -- it was in 1982. I was on the train from Chicago
to Oakland (for San Francisco), which at the time still followed the
UP main line through Wyoming, and when we stopped at Rawlins and I
found we had 15 minutes to wait there, I got off for about 10 minutes
-- enough to walk a block or two away from the station, then back.
If was a frigid but sunny day and I enjoyed it.
I remember long-ago train journeys in Australia where the stops at some
stations were long enough for the passengers to get off and have a cup
of tea. That doesn't seem to happen any more, except of course when you
have to change trains.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 10:05:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The obvious
explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts of French
cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli" and
concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE originally
had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.
That's true, I think, but why does French sometimes add an s to English
place names: Londres, Douvres, Cornouailles? This last can perhaps be
justified by the fact that France has a Cornouaille of its own.
Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 10:51:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts
of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli"
and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.
OK, good point.
Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.
Are you suggesting that English took the name directly from the Greek? I
can understand the Italians dropping the 's', because "Napolis" wouldn't
be an Italian-sounding word, but English must have anglicised the word
before the 's' had been dropped.

Or was there a period when the Italian name really was Napolis?

Ah, now I get it. Greeks lived there before Italians did. Now it makes
sense.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-17 20:50:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts
of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli"
and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.
OK, good point.
Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek Νεάπολις
romanised as Neápolis.
Are you suggesting that English took the name directly from the Greek? I
can understand the Italians dropping the 's', because "Napolis" wouldn't
be an Italian-sounding word, but English must have anglicised the word
before the 's' had been dropped.
Or was there a period when the Italian name really was Napolis?
Ah, now I get it. Greeks lived there before Italians did. Now it makes
sense.
The Greeks put their towel on almost every seaside location around the
Mediterranean, long before anyone else got there.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 21:29:05 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by musika
Post by Peter Moylan
Just the other day I was wondering why Naples has an 's'. The
obvious explanation is that the English added an 's' to all sorts
of French cities, so they might as well do it to Italy too.
What I suspect, though, is that people looked at the word "Napoli"
and concluded that the final 'i' was an Italian plural.
You will find that most French cities ending in "s" in BrE
originally had an "s" in French. They changed spellings, we didn't.
OK, good point.
Post by musika
A similar thing happened to Naples. It comes from Greek
Νεάπολις romanised as Neápolis.
Are you suggesting that English took the name directly from the
Greek? I can understand the Italians dropping the 's', because
"Napolis" wouldn't be an Italian-sounding word, but English must have
anglicised the word before the 's' had been dropped.
Or was there a period when the Italian name really was Napolis?
Ah, now I get it. Greeks lived there before Italians did. Now it
makes sense.
The Greeks put their towel on almost every seaside location around the
Mediterranean, long before anyone else got there.
What did the Phoenicians ever do for us?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Chrysi Cat
2021-03-17 19:49:03 UTC
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
 A good idea?
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to be
alive and well.
Then you forget that the Olympic coverage was from "Torino".

And "Zena" is starting to make inroads for "Genoa" as well.

Though I'll admit I don't see "Naples", "Rome", or "Venice" going
anywhere any time soon.
French has never had any truck with that idea. Now that we're all
supposed to say Beijing it's still Pékin in French.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 20:54:33 UTC
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Post by Chrysi Cat
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem to be
alive and well.
Then you forget that the Olympic coverage was from "Torino".
That was NBC's affectation. The name on US maps of Italy is "Turin."
Peter Moylan
2021-03-18 00:24:56 UTC
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Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Leghorn seems to have gone, but all the others I can think of seem
to be alive and well.
Then you forget that the Olympic coverage was from "Torino".
I saw the shroud of Turin in Torino. I have to say it that way because I
don't know the Italian word for "shroud".

I got there by train from either Milan or Milano, depending on who I'm
speaking to.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-16 13:47:05 UTC
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Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
In the UK there are two separate Lidl companies, Lidl GB and Lidl NI.
According to the companies' adverts on YouTube, Lidl GB rhymes Lidl with
middle but Lidl NI rhymes it with needle.
Post by s***@my-deja.com
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-16 14:33:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
Yes I think, with moderation,
and if you take over a hundred years for it.
Dutch has done it wrt English.
Places like Nieuwkasteel and Haarwijk have been forgotten,
but Londen instead of London still exists,

Jan

PS And for our American friends: Zandhoek has gone too.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.

In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.

Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.

As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.

One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 18:54:09 UTC
Reply
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:18:33 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by s***@my-deja.com
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
The latter can and I think should be regarded as a separate question. If
a separate English name exists, it has its own pronunciation. That will
rarely apply to brand names, though.
In the other case, where you use the foreign name as is, in the exact
spelling, then my strong preference is that the pronunciation should be
based on the original pronunciation.
Mimicking sounds that don't exist in your native language should be
optional, and avoided if it impairs recognition. But reading
pronunciations should really be avoided. So not Eye-key-a, because
Ee-kay-ya is quite English enough, and closer to the Swedish original.
As a general rule - if a company uses a different pronunciation itself,
that's of course admissible. <https://youtu.be/ZFVAVY37nI4>, for how
IKEA promotes itself to British and American customers.
The camera name video went through a long list of camera and lens
makers that would be unfamiliar to most people. Even as a person who
is very much into photography, and follows photography news, many of
those names were unfamiliar to me.

Ikea, though, would be a company name with a high degree of name
recognition in any group.

As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
Post by Quinn C
One thing that irritated me in the camera name video is that the speaker
described the German "long a" ([a:]) as in Agfa as "short". I think he
just said that to dissuade English speakers from certain English
pronunciations, mixing different meanings of "long" in the process - but
then, [eI] is very unlikely in this case. It's also possible he thinks
Agfa should be said with an actual short a ([a]) in German. I couldn't
quite figure it out, and I've heard both variants in German.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:04:31 UTC
Reply
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On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...

Or just as a mistake.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 19:22:31 UTC
Reply
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On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.

Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense

is says that

"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:45:39 UTC
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Note that, here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lense
is says that
"Usage notes
Lense is accepted as an alternative spelling by Webster's Third New
International Dictionary, but proscribed as a misspelling by Garner's
Modern American Usage, Paul Brians’ Common Errors in English Usage,
Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English and others."
In other words, the folks who tell you what people _do_ use -- or rather,
did use 60 years ago -- say it's in use, and the folks who like to think they
have a right or duty to tell you what you _should_ do say otherwise.

They don't, however, get to decide.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 21:17:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.
That makes no sens!

A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 22:54:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
...
Or just as a mistake.
No, there are certain people in the photography forums that
consistantly use that spelling, are called on it, and continue to use
it.
That makes no sens!
A reference to German "Linse"? But the usual meaning of "lens" in
photography is "Objektiv" in German (the elements are Linsen).
It actually makes some sense as an English spelling (cf. cleanse),
though "lenze" would be better (cf. bronze). The -ns ending usually
signals a morpheme boundary (pens, cleans).
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 03:54:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.

The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 04:30:15 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense".  Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so highly
technical (something in physics, I think) that most people have never
heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.
There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
Not seen since 1200.

But maybe you'r thinking of a geological term:

to lens out (intr.): of a body of rock: to become gradually thinner
(along a particular direction) to the point of extinction (1921, 1965)

Of course in any field where there's a noun "lens" at work, a verb can
always follow.
Post by Peter Moylan
The search engines are being unhelpful. If I insist that "verb" must be
included in the search, I get a whole lot of results that are about verb
tenses in general (not including the one I'm looking for). What the
world lacks is a search engine that will search for precisely what you
specify, rather than what they think you should be searching for.
But less technical, more common, is the use to mean "film (v)", from
1940s, probably coined by _Variety_:

1950 Variety 22 Mar. 20/1 While the pic was lensed as a locationer
in Havana, little use has been made of the Cuban capital's natural
surroundings.

From that you could easily back-form a base "lense".
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 04:52:48 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is when
people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a form of
affectation.
I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most people
have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.
There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'. Not
seen since 1200.
I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.

That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It looks
as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens", without
going through a verb as an intermediary.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
CDB
2021-03-17 13:11:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
As a "drifting a bit" aside, the thing that irritates me is
when people spell "lens" as "lense". Not as a typo, but as a
form of affectation.
I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most
people have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.
There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'.
Not seen since 1200.
I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.
That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It
looks as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens",
without going through a verb as an intermediary.
I tried searching for "lensing" and "lensed". Sites that admitted they
could be verb-forms seemed to go with the infinitive "lens".

i didn't try "lenser", but that might be another avenue of approach.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 16:00:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
I believe I have seen the _verb_ lense, but its meaning is so
highly technical (something in physics, I think) that most people
have never heard of it, and I've forgotten the meaning.
There's the OE verb lense 'to make lean; macerate; become lean'. Not
seen since 1200.
I now remember where I've seen the verb: in gravitational lensing, a
phenomenon well-known to astronomers.
That gets us no further, I'm afraid. The people who refer to this
lensing don't seem to have an infinitive for the implied verb. It looks
as if they've given a present participle to the noun "lens", without
going through a verb as an intermediary.
A search for "'gravitational lensing' 'not lens'" finds such things as "If
the dark matter is some type of elementary particle, it will not lens LMC
stars". However, a search for ""'gravitational lensing' 'not lense'" found
nothing. Before I put the quotation marks on "gravitational lensing", I
did find one relevant hit with "not lense". There were also irrelevant
hits from photography sites and from people saying "It's lens, not
lense." I didn't check whether any of them were Tony.


(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Graham
2021-03-17 17:38:51 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
A search for "'gravitational lensing' 'not lens'" finds such things as "If
the dark matter is some type of elementary particle, it will not lens LMC
stars". However, a search for ""'gravitational lensing' 'not lense'" found
nothing. Before I put the quotation marks on "gravitational lensing", I
did find one relevant hit with "not lense". There were also irrelevant
hits from photography sites and from people saying "It's lens, not
lense." I didn't check whether any of them were Tony.
(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
I once read a paper in a geological journal that used "lensatic"
intead of the usual "lenticular" as a descriptor.
I mused that with the right pronunciation, a lensatic was turned on by
someone wearing glasses.
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-17 20:18:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jerry Friedman
A search for "'gravitational lensing' 'not lens'" finds such things as "If
the dark matter is some type of elementary particle, it will not lens LMC
stars".  However, a search for ""'gravitational lensing' 'not lense'"
found
nothing.  Before I put the quotation marks on "gravitational lensing", I
did find one relevant hit with "not lense".  There were also irrelevant
hits from photography sites and from people saying "It's lens, not
lense."  I didn't check whether any of them were Tony.
(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
 I once read a paper in a geological journal that used "lensatic"
intead of the usual "lenticular" as a descriptor.
I mused that with the right pronunciation, a lensatic was turned on by
someone wearing glasses.
Lensatics make passes at girls who wear glasses?
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Graham
2021-03-17 20:58:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
A search for "'gravitational lensing' 'not lens'" finds such things as "If
the dark matter is some type of elementary particle, it will not lens LMC
stars".  However, a search for ""'gravitational lensing' 'not lense'"
found
nothing.  Before I put the quotation marks on "gravitational lensing", I
did find one relevant hit with "not lense".  There were also irrelevant
hits from photography sites and from people saying "It's lens, not
lense."  I didn't check whether any of them were Tony.
(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
  I once read a paper in a geological journal that used "lensatic"
intead of the usual "lenticular" as a descriptor.
I mused that with the right pronunciation, a lensatic was turned on by
someone wearing glasses.
Lensatics make passes at girls who wear glasses?
Precisely!
Peter Moylan
2021-03-18 00:28:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jerry Friedman
(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
I've searched for it, but never found it. I suspect that I'd need a good
telescope.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Mark Brader
2021-03-18 01:10:13 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
(I suspect the LMC is something that I've never seen but you can see
from down there.)
I've searched for it, but never found it. I suspect that I'd need a good
telescope.
Besides being far enough south, which you are, the other things you need
are a dark enough sky that you can see the Milky Way, and a time of night
when it's above the horizon. A telescope wouldn't help.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We feel for you, Pluto, unfortunate morph:
***@vex.net | You went in a planet and came out a dwarf."
--Dan Burg
occam
2021-03-17 07:27:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!
s***@my-deja.com
2021-03-17 08:11:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!
A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 10:08:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by occam
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!
A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate
being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English
I think that now Braunschweig _is_ the English name. It's on its way
there anyway.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Quinn C
2021-03-17 16:43:27 UTC
Reply
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Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by occam
Post by s***@my-deja.com
Post by Ross Clark
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
What about the main point of the video - that German brand names should
be pronounced as in German?
Lidl to rhyme with middle or with needle?
That idea would demolish all the English language names of many Italian cities
A good idea?
That last statement was a magician's trompe d'oeil. You switched your
premise from 'pronunciation' to 'names'!
A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a candidate being marked
down in a translation examination for writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed
to be writing in English
I hope it didn't happen in Neubraunschweig.

Or in Lüneburg, Neuschottland.
--
...an explanatory principle - like "gravity" or "instinct" -
really explains nothing. It's a sort of conventional agreement
between scientists to stop trying to explain things at a
certain point. -- Gregory Bateson
Peter Moylan
2021-03-18 01:02:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by s***@my-deja.com
A necessary intermediate step, prompted by a true story of a
candidate being marked down in a translation examination for
writing "Braunschweig" because he was supposed to be writing in
English
I hope it didn't happen in Neubraunschweig.
Or in Lüneburg, Neuschottland.
While looking up the location of Braunschweig, I noticed that the maps
gave the German names of German towns and cities, but there was one very
visible exception: Munich.

If I search for "München Hauptbahnhof", it offers to take me to "München
Hbf, Munich, Germany". Apparently the station is in Munich, not München.

Looking at a map of Belgium, I see that all the names are in French or
Dutch _except_ Brussels, Antwerp, Bruges, Ghent, and Namur. Bruges is
ambiguous, I guess, because Engish uses the French name, but it looks
strange to see a French name in the middle of a sea of Dutch names.

Moving over a little, Luxembourg is spelt like that; no English
translation. Denmark is all Danish except for Copenhagen. Warsaw is the
only non-Polish name I can see in Poland. It's hard to see a pattern.
Perhaps the size of a city is the trigger.

As I reached this point, I realised that I was not looking at Google
Maps. Instead, DuckDuckGo had taken me to a different map application.
Now I wish I could find out what it was, because it works better than
Google Maps.

Google Maps gives me a different mixture of English and native language,
but again the pattern is unclear.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Adam Funk
2021-03-16 11:10:57 UTC
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Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
--
When Chayefsky created Howard Beale, could he have imagined
Jerry Springer, Howard Stern, and the World Wrestling
Federation? ---Roger Ebert
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:02:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Adam Funk
2021-03-17 08:37:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Fair enough.
--
No sport is less organized than Calvinball!
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 14:53:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Remarkably regular for something "arbitrary." And it was certainly
not they who first noticed the pattern of alternations.

BTW W. Nelson Francis, whom Venezky identifies as the first linguist
to recognize the importance of morphophonemics in English spelling,
offers "condole ~ condolence" as an example with o -- except I've never
heard of a verb "to condole" (presumably something like 'to comfort')
and he claims initial stress on "condolence." Does anyone say CON-***@l@nce?

But he also thinks "office" has /a/ not /O/ (b. Philadelphia, 1910).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Nelson_Francis
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 20:29:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Remarkably regular for something "arbitrary." And it was certainly
not they who first noticed the pattern of alternations.
It's arbitrary from the point of view of the present-day English
speaker. Nobody doubts that the alternations exist in PDE, and result
from sound changes several centuries ago. What's in doubt is whether PDE
speakers recapitulate these changes every time they use these words.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
BTW W. Nelson Francis, whom Venezky identifies as the first linguist
to recognize the importance of morphophonemics in English spelling,
offers "condole ~ condolence" as an example with o -- except I've never
heard of a verb "to condole" (presumably something like 'to comfort')
"Condole" is pretty well documented through the 19th century, though
OED's only 20C citation is Indian:

1969 Hindusthan Standard (Calcutta) 5 Aug. 6/4 Students..passed a
resolution condoling the death of Mr. Prakash Podder.

Initial stress on "condolence" is given as an alternative by Kenyon &
Knott 1944, also by Jones 1940 ("rarely") and 1967, but not in the
present century.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But he also thinks "office" has /a/ not /O/ (b. Philadelphia, 1910).
K&K give ɔ, ɒ, and ɑ for the stressed vowel of that word, in that order,
without further comment.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Nelson_Francis
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 21:03:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Hypercorrection or something similar?
Analogical contamination or something like that. People learn the words
separately; they're linked by meaning, but not derived from a single
underlying form as C&H would have it. The ou > u change is just an
arbitrary oddity which is easily forgotten.
Remarkably regular for something "arbitrary." And it was certainly
not they who first noticed the pattern of alternations.
It's arbitrary from the point of view of the present-day English
speaker. Nobody doubts that the alternations exist in PDE, and result
from sound changes several centuries ago. What's in doubt is whether PDE
speakers recapitulate these changes every time they use these words.
Well duh.

Their book is about the Sound _Patterns_ of English. (I think you left
too soon to encounter Robert Hall's vituperations against generative
phonology as it then was. I wrote a paper for Jim Gair's Phonology
class doing an SPE-style rewrite of some of Hall's French, and got
an A; a few years later I did the same for the Akkadian strong verbs
for Erica Reiner, whose recent *Linguistic Analysis of Akkadian* was
steadfastly pre-Hallean -- except she did use one notational gimmick:
the colon for "length" could be applied to either the preceding vowel
or the following consonant (yielding open or closed syllables
respectively.)

It's unlikely that no psycholinguist has ever experimented on her classes
to see what they do with wugs that would fit the pattern.
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
BTW W. Nelson Francis, whom Venezky identifies as the first linguist
to recognize the importance of morphophonemics in English spelling,
offers "condole ~ condolence" as an example with o -- except I've never
heard of a verb "to condole" (presumably something like 'to comfort')
"Condole" is pretty well documented through the 19th century, though
1969 Hindusthan Standard (Calcutta) 5 Aug. 6/4 Students..passed a
resolution condoling the death of Mr. Prakash Podder.
Initial stress on "condolence" is given as an alternative by Kenyon &
Knott 1944, also by Jones 1940 ("rarely") and 1967, but not in the
present century.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But he also thinks "office" has /a/ not /O/ (b. Philadelphia, 1910).
K&K give ɔ, ɒ, and ɑ for the stressed vowel of that word, in that order,
without further comment.
I should have mentioned that he contrasts office with /a/ with off with /O/.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 14:11:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 16:12:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)

It wouldn't be surprising to hear "obessity" from someone who didn't
know "obesity."

Wijk and other sources have several words of that sort where AmE and
BrE differ.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 16:50:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)
...

Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:40:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
invite/invitation (-ational is two suffixes, "nation" has no synchronic suffix)
...
Is there a proviso that trisyllabic laxing doesn't apply or doesn't necessarily
apply to synchronic suffixes?
? You must mean "diachronic." The suffix in "national" that makes the
syllable in question third-from-the end is -al. I don't know whether
"nation" has -tion in it, but I doubt it.

Also you can see from abound/abundance that there don't actually
have to be two syllables after the affected one.

The basic, unstated, assumption of C&H's SPE is that every English-
speaker has Proto-Indo-European in their head, because their rules
recapitulate the historical development of the language -- as, in fact,
it's reflected in the spelling.
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:06:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 15:43:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.
I fear I may be so contaminated with empiricism that I'm interested in
exceptions.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 18:03:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross Clark
I hope C&H said it was just a tendency. After all, they knew "invitational"
doesn't rhyme with "national", "obesity" doesn't have the same stressed
vowel as "serenity", etc., etc.
They were far more interested in rules than exceptions. "Tendency" was
not part of their vocabulary -- it smacked of empiricism.
I fear I may be so contaminated with empiricism that I'm interested in
exceptions.
Their followers never seem to remember that if it weren't for the
empiricists -- the field-working descriptive linguists -- they wouldn't
have any data to reanalyze.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 16:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:20:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.

Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 15:03:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)

Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.

Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud

(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 20:44:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)
Yes, that's why I asked you.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.
We're not talking about spelling here. But are you suggesting that
English spelling would be improved if we re-spelled "profundity" as
"profoundity" (or perhaps "profound" as "profund") and so on?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud
(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 21:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)
Yes, that's why I asked you.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.
We're not talking about spelling here.
Of course we are. Didn't you ever notice that SPE's "underlying forms"
are for the most part the same as modern orthography?
Post by Ross Clark
But are you suggesting that
English spelling would be improved if we re-spelled "profundity" as
"profoundity" (or perhaps "profound" as "profund") and so on?
Presumably all the vowel letters were busy indicating all the
other "long" vowels, so the Early Middle English scribes had to do
a digraph for that one.
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud
(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 23:42:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
The ou ~ u alternation is standard: abound/abundance, profound/profundity,
etc. It's part of the pattern that Chomsky & Halle call "trisyllabic laxing," along
with divine/divinity, sane/sanity, serene/serenity, etc.
Which means that, if English speakers' phonology were actually organized
in the way Chomsky & Halle proposed, nobody should say "pronounciation".
In fact, however, many people do. Conclusions are left as an exercise
for the student.
Do you often hear aboundance, profoundity, div/ay/nity, s/ey/nity, etc.?
No. As I said to Jerry, people learn these words and their (historical)
base words separately. (Many people who know "abundance" probably don't
even know "abound", or don't relate the two.) Analogical
innovation/re-creation is unsystematic and sporadic. "Profoundity" or
"obsceenity" wouldn't greatly surprise me if I heard them.
Do you often hear "obessity", or does the theory just predict that you
should?
(Obessity was _my_ example of an exception.)
Yes, that's why I asked you.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Methinks you haven't kept up with the literature on English spelling.
We're not talking about spelling here.
Of course we are. Didn't you ever notice that SPE's "underlying forms"
are for the most part the same as modern orthography?
That might be an interesting observation, if true. But Chomsky and Halle
are not talking about spelling, either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
But are you suggesting that
English spelling would be improved if we re-spelled "profundity" as
"profoundity" (or perhaps "profound" as "profund") and so on?
Presumably all the vowel letters were busy indicating all the
other "long" vowels, so the Early Middle English scribes had to do
a digraph for that one.
An interesting historical observation, but not an answer to my question.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Psycholinguists know very well that morphophonemic spelling is
a lot more useful than surface-phonetic spelling in both learning
to read and fluent reading. For all but unfamiliar words (and names),
the "detour" through the phonetic interpretation of print is bypassed.
See under "Dual-Route Theory," a viewpoint associated with Australia's
Max Coltheart. (Even the IPA finally went to orthography in their journal.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Coltheart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-route_hypothesis_to_reading_aloud
(No idea why the Wikiparticle title includes "reading aloud.")
CDB
2021-03-16 13:27:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German
names properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable
by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false. I do type "pronounciation" at time and
have to correct it.
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
Quinn C
2021-03-16 16:18:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation". The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
One has to take into account that each of these is less frequent than
"pronunciation", so it may take a long time to encounter one instance of
a divergent pronunciation.
--
If this guy wants to fight with weapons, I've got it covered
from A to Z. From axe to... zee other axe.
-- Buffy s05e03
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:28:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
He was obviously referring to the ciation of pronouns.
Post by Tony Cooper
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
When I was in grad school, a fellow student told me that
mispronunciation is common, which might be true, and that I do it,
which is obviously false.  I do type "pronounciation" at time and have
to correct it.
Interesting that one (FSVO "one") does not hear or see "announciation",
"enounciation" or "denounciation".  The verbs are spelled and pronounced
"-ou-"[aw], and I presume that that is the source of the error.
Certainly it is. But "Annunciation" is no longer related to "announce";
it's the name of a specific Biblical event. "Announce" and "denounce"
also have other nominalized forms available (with -ment). And is there
even a verb "enounce"? One wouldn't expect much analogical pressure in
these cases.
Graham
2021-03-15 17:35:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
CDB
2021-03-16 13:34:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly. Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)

They pronounced their name "sowtham" ['***@m].
Ross Clark
2021-03-16 23:33:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
 will not have much interest to most people here because it deals
with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with
German names properly.  Only a very few of the items will be
recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though.  At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation".
I think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the  "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others,
and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)
I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in
the home-delivery field.
CDB
2021-03-17 13:24:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by CDB
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it
deals with pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses)
with German names properly. Only a very few of the items will
be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this,
the speaker says the word "pronounciation" as
"pro-nownce-ee-ation". I think he says it the same in other
place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from
others, and it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold
out to Conrad Black.)
I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked
in the home-delivery field.
I said it that way too, but was corrected more than once. The CBC
pronounced it with "ow" when the sale was in the news. Carleton
University has a Southam Hall with the same diphthong, and can be
presumed (I suppose) to have gotten their benefactors' name right.

All pretty shaky, though.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 15:47:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Ross Clark
Post by CDB
Post by Graham
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say
"sowthern" for southern.
Influenced by the lamented Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out
to Conrad Black.)
I didn't know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in
the home-delivery field.
People in that field are probably now called "last kilometer logistical
solutions contractors" (sic on the hyphenlessness).
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 17:17:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
On 3/15/2021 1:35 PM, Graham wrote:...
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say> >>
"sowthern" for southern.> >> > Influenced by the lamented Southam
newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out> > to Conrad Black.)> >> > They
said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of> them, but they owned the
Vancouver Province, for whom I once worked in> the home-delivery field.
People in that field are probably now called "last kilometer logistical
solutions contractors" (sic on the hyphenlessness).
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not seriously.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 17:30:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:17:19 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
On 3/15/2021 1:35 PM, Graham wrote:...
I haven't heard that but I have heard Canadians and Americans say>
"sowthern" for southern.> >> > Influenced by the lamented
Southam newspaper chain? (The heirs sold out> > to Conrad Black.)>
know that. We said "sutham" /ʌ/. Not that I ever met any of>
them, but they owned the Vancouver Province, for whom I once
worked in> the home-delivery field.
People in that field are probably now called "last kilometer
logistical solutions contractors" (sic on the hyphenlessness).
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not
seriously.
Are you from Sith Efrikah? (I'm only guessing what those strange symbols
are)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 18:10:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:17:19 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not seriously.
Are you from Sith Efrikah? (I'm only guessing what those strange symbols
are)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Too busy typing drivel to take five minutes to find out?

To find out what the ONE LETTER in that string that's non-English means?

Or, and this is an over-estimate, ten minutes to learn all the letters used
in writing English phonetically?
CDB
2021-03-17 18:43:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not seriously.
Are you from Sith Efrikah? (I'm only guessing what those strange
symbols are) -- Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Too busy typing drivel to take five minutes to find out?
To find out what the ONE LETTER in that string that's non-English means?
Or, and this is an over-estimate, ten minutes to learn all the
letters used in writing English phonetically?
In the Mudge's post as I received it, the string was [sʌðmtn].
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 20:44:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not
seriously.
Are you from Sith Efrikah? (I'm only guessing what those strange
symbols are) -- Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Too busy typing drivel to take five minutes to find out?
To find out what the ONE LETTER in that string that's non-English means?
Or, and this is an over-estimate, ten minutes to learn all the
letters used in writing English phonetically?
In the Mudge's post as I received it, the string was [sʌðmtn].
It was shorter, but it didn't show as 1 character. Not that I'm bothered
by PTDs useless contribution.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 20:50:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I've been known to pronounce the English city [sʌðmtn], but not seriously.
Are you from Sith Efrikah? (I'm only guessing what those strange
symbols are) -- Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Too busy typing drivel to take five minutes to find out?
To find out what the ONE LETTER in that string that's non-English means?
Or, and this is an over-estimate, ten minutes to learn all the
letters used in writing English phonetically?
In the Mudge's post as I received it, the string was [sʌðmtn].
He did PM's fix, and the original came through correctly. So now
the problem might be at your end! And it also looks fine above,
both in your message and in my quote of the message.

In your line above, after the [s I see cap-E-circumflex, cap-OE-
ligature, cap-A-tilde, degree-sign, mtn].
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-15 17:39:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Rich Ulrich
2021-03-15 19:19:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.

Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
--
Rich Ulrich
Tony Cooper
2021-03-15 19:23:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I'll say this once to answer all who noticed it:

I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-15 19:27:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-15 21:26:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
Yes, I noticed, but in this group we (most of us) only draw attention
to our own typos, not to other people's.
TC isn't part of that "we." I gave him the opportunity to bitch about
my all-caps response -- but all he did was quote the one line that
had an obvious self-correcting typo and call attention to it.

"Pronounciation" is a natural product of fingers that are accustomed
to touch-typing and access "frequency tables" in the memory.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-15 21:05:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:19:40 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:42 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
More common than one might wish! One also sometimes sees it spelt
"pronounciation"
Yes, too common and I've seen it spelt that way.
Google Ngrams shows the spelling to be very rare (books).
I made a typo and spelled pronunciation once incorrectly.
I noticed, but thought it was deliberate.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Lewis
2021-03-15 19:28:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.

The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
--
There are bad people on both sides
Graham
2021-03-15 22:46:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC saying:
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Lewis
2021-03-16 09:43:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
--
'You make us want what we can't have and what you give us is worth
nothing and what you take is everything and all there is left for
us is the cold hillside, and emptiness, and the laughter of the
elves.'
Graham
2021-03-16 14:37:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
Lewis
2021-03-16 15:39:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).

For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
--
'And I promise you this,' he [Carrot] shouted, 'if we succeed, no-one
will remember. And if we fail, no one will forget!'
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 15:45:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
--
Jerry Friedman
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-16 17:32:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same
one you do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old
and wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which
combines both "sh" and vowel lengthening was someone on the CBC
saying: "Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding
like posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Close enough?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:25:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 15:45:36 GMT, Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British
)or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Close enough?
If you've got an [r] in the middle, you might as well have one at the end.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2021-03-16 18:49:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.
--
Ken
Adam Funk
2021-03-17 08:36:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Not by a non-rhotic speaker, I guess?
Post by Ken Blake
And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.
That does grind my gears --- it's not like that /z/ at the end is an
exotic, difficult sound for English-speakers.
--
they're OK, the last days of May
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 09:29:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Cf. "repertoire" pronounced "repertwa", which I heard the other day on NPR.
Not by a non-rhotic speaker, I guess?
Post by Ken Blake
And "vichysoise" is often pronounced vish-ee-SHWA.
That does grind my gears --- it's not like that /z/ at the end is an
exotic, difficult sound for English-speakers.
There are plenty of people who know just enough about French to know
that a final consonant is often silent - but not enough to know that a
final mute 'e' cancels that rule of thumb.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Graham
2021-03-16 18:48:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Also:
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-16 19:00:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Post by Graham
Fountainblue
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.

As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]:
[ʃɑɪ̯ə]).
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Graham
2021-03-16 19:14:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding  like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Fountainblue
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
As for "Cheshire", I say ['tʃeʃə] (chesha, if you like). Do you?
Pronouncing -shire as [ʃɑɪ̯ər] is typically American (though as an
isolated word, not a suffix, it's more or less that, with the [r]: [ʃɑɪ̯ə]).
I am originally from Suffolk so I don't speak Canadian nor (heaven
forbid) American:-)
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-16 20:43:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
When the cathedral in Paris went up in smoke, TV and radio journalists
rarely got it right. Noter Daime, Noter Darm, Notruh Daime and sometimes
Notruh Darm.
?? Who would put an r into "Dame"?
Tony Cooper
2021-03-16 19:17:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:00:46 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Pronounced that way by some, but a bit of a difference in spelling,
though.

Some say "Noter Dame", some say "Nodder Dame" (short "o"), and some
say "Notra Dame".
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-16 19:46:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:00:46 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Tony will doubtless, know, but I think that's what the university in
Indiana is called.
Pronounced that way by some, but a bit of a difference in spelling,
though.
Some say "Noter Dame", some say "Nodder Dame" (short "o"), and some
say "Notra Dame".
I've never heard the "Notter" version, but I'm sure you've heard the
university mentioned much more than I have.

For further evidence on the pronunciation of the second word,

Rally sons of Notre Dame:
Sing her glory and sound her fame,
Raise her Gold and Blue
And cheer with voices true:
Rah, rah, for Notre Dame
We will fight in ev'ry game,
Strong of heart and true to her name
We will ne’er forget her
And will cheer her ever
Loyal to Notre Dame

{Begin chorus, that is, the part that a lot of Americans know, at least
the tune.)

Cheer, cheer for old Notre Dame,
Wake up the echoes cheering her name,
Send a volley cheer on high,
Shake down the thunder from the sky.
What though the odds be great or small
Old Notre Dame will win over all,
While her loyal sons are marching
Onward to victory.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 04:04:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Tony Cooper
2021-03-17 04:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue". It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
it. Many are mentioned in this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 08:45:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue". It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach
Hey! I've never been to Florida, and I know of it. Am I in there?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 16:50:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue". It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach
The author of the article mentions "the normal French pronunciation of
the word" but ducks the issue of saying what the normal French
pronunciation _is_. Unfortunately I couldn't check what the author of
reference 20 because "www.usatoday.com redirected you too many times".
However, I suspect that many people (probably some French people) think
the name is Fontainebleu and pronounced accordingly. Referring to "the
Anglicized 'fountain blue' " certainly suggests that the author of the
article thought that.
Post by Ross Clark
Hey! I've never been to Florida, and I know of it. Am I in there?
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 19:43:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue". It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach
The author of the article mentions "the normal French pronunciation of
the word" but ducks the issue of saying what the normal French
pronunciation _is_. Unfortunately I couldn't check what the author of
reference 20 because "www.usatoday.com redirected you too many times".
Same for me.
I guess that the 'hotelier' who built the place
acording to /en.wikipedia is not too French either.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
However, I suspect that many people (probably some French people) think
the name is Fontainebleu and pronounced accordingly. Referring to "the
Anglicized 'fountain blue' " certainly suggests that the author of the
article thought that.
The nice Belgian lady who is hiding in my TomTom certainly thinks so.
She makes it 'Fonteinblauw', with an almost mute w.
I guess it may be a general Belgian pronunciation,

Jan
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-17 20:33:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:04:55 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
The famous Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami Beach, Florida is pronounced
"fountain blue".  It's famous in that it has appeared in so many
movies and TV shows that people who have never been to Florida know of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontainebleau_Miami_Beach
Hey! I've never been to Florida, and I know of it. Am I in there?
I got this confused with the Hotel del Coronado, and was going to comment:


"Nobody's perfect."
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Quinn C
2021-03-17 16:46:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My daughter worked for ten years in Fontainebleau, so I know how to say it.
I've just realised that I didn't know how to say it. In my mind it was
always Fontainebleu. The extra letter changes the pronunciation
completely, of course.
Sacrebleau!
--
... it might be nice to see ourselves reflected in TV shows and
Pride season campaigns, but the cis white men who invented the
gender binary still own the damn mirror.
-- Delilah Friedler at slate.com
Adam Funk
2021-03-17 08:34:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I hear both, never bothered by either one, but I use the same one you
do.
The one currently bothering me is people who say "wizened" as
"wise-end".
That's an example of the current fashion of vowel-lengthening.
Maybe, or maybe it's people thinking it means "wise" and not "old and
wrinkled".
Post by Graham
Another mis-pronunciation is "sh" for "ch".
I've heard "shintz" for "chintz" but the best example, which combines
"Grinning like a Sheshyre Cat!"
Which CBC? Canadian? They might have though they were sounding like
posh Brits?
No Brit, posh or otherwise, would ever pronounce "Cheshire" that way.
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
I'll bite -- what's "Poe-de-crème"?
Post by Graham
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
--
There’s never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
---Calvin
Peter Moylan
2021-03-17 10:14:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".

It's also pretty much the way I say it.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Adam Funk
2021-03-17 13:37:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
I'm not sure what the point was then.
--
A lot of people never use their intiative because no-one
told them to. ---Banksy
Quinn C
2021-03-17 16:51:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
I gathered that it must be that, although I had never heard of the item.
It seems that the French don't talk about it any more.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
I'm not sure what the point was then.
Not another Dom-dome thread, please!
--
CW: Historical misogyny
Jbzna vf n cnve bs binevrf jvgu n uhzna orvat nggnpurq, jurernf
zna vf n uhzna orvat sheavfurq jvgu n cnve bs grfgrf.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 17:20:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 16:51:02 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of
people mispronounce things because they thought they were
sounding British )or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
I gathered that it must be that, although I had never heard of the
item. It seems that the French don't talk about it any more.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
I'm not sure what the point was then.
Not another Dom-dome thread, please!
Scone, Scone; let's call the whole thing off.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Ross Clark
2021-03-17 20:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 16:51:02 GMT, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of
people mispronounce things because they thought they were
sounding British )or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
I gathered that it must be that, although I had never heard of the
item. It seems that the French don't talk about it any more.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
I'm not sure what the point was then.
Not another Dom-dome thread, please!
Scone, Scone; let's call the whole thing off.
Let's call the whole thing Scoon!
Graham
2021-03-17 15:06:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
No, they say it with the short "o".
Graham
2021-03-17 15:09:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
I had an Australian boss who referred to a local French restaurant as:
"The Coke D'Or".
Tony Cooper
2021-03-17 15:23:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
Maison et Jardin was a very popular upscale restaurant in the Orlando
area. It was known by most as "the Mason Jar". Lovely building on
expansive grounds.

Now closed as a restaurant, but open as a "wedding venue". Or was.
Most weddings today could be held in a Waffle Hut.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
charles
2021-03-17 16:18:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about "cotty
du ronny" - but then he was Australian
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Graham
2021-03-17 17:43:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about "cotty
du ronny" - but then he was Australian
An Aussie vigneron who lives in France makes a red wine he calls "Goats
do Roam".
charles
2021-03-17 18:03:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of
people mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding
British )or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Also: Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about
"cotty du ronny" - but then he was Australian
An Aussie vigneron who lives in France makes a red wine he calls "Goats
do Roam".
and there was "Kanga Rouge"
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-17 20:37:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of
people mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding
British )or French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Also: Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about
"cotty du ronny" - but then he was Australian
An Aussie vigneron who lives in France makes a red wine he calls "Goats
do Roam".
and there was "Kanga Rouge"
Beaune of Contention?
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Ken Blake
2021-03-17 21:05:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about "cotty
du ronny" - but then he was Australian
An Aussie vigneron who lives in France makes a red wine he calls "Goats
do Roam".
?? Goats do Roam is a South African wine.
--
Ken
Graham
2021-03-17 21:29:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Graham
Post by charles
Post by Graham
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
I didn't say a Brit would. But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
It's the way the French say "pot de crème".
It's also pretty much the way I say it.
"The Coke D'Or".
a local eatery had (20ish years ago) a wine waiter who talked about "cotty
du ronny" - but then he was Australian
An Aussie vigneron who lives in France makes a red wine he calls "Goats
do Roam".
?? Goats do Roam is a South African wine.
OK! Since I don't drink it, I've never read the label.
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 16:13:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)

By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-03-17 17:20:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people> > mispronounce things
because they thought they were sounding British )or> > French).> >> >
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".> >
Also:> Poe-de-crème> Rizoatoh> Coasta Rica> Noter Daime> Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r".
Do you mean that they don't pronounce the r as an r -- quite normal for
a non-rhotic speaker, or that they don't use it to modify the preceding
vowel. I don't think I've heard that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
Quite possibly.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-17 19:45:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:20:15 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people> > mispronounce things
because they thought they were sounding British )or> > French).> >> >
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".> >
Also:> Poe-de-crème> Rizoatoh> Coasta Rica> Noter Daime> Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r".
Do you mean that they don't pronounce the r as an r -- quite normal for
a non-rhotic speaker, or that they don't use it to modify the preceding
vowel. I don't think I've heard that.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
Quite possibly.
Know as an "Intrusive R" as described here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R#Intrusive_R

There is also the Linking R (in the same wikiparticle just before
Intrusive R).
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 19:47:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
On 2021-03-16 9:39 a.m., Lewis wrote:...
But I have certainly heard a lot of people> > mispronounce things
because they thought they were sounding British )or> > French).> >> >
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".> >
Also:> Poe-de-crème> Rizoatoh> Coasta Rica> Noter Daime> Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r".
Do you mean that they don't pronounce the r as an r -- quite normal for
a non-rhotic speaker, or that they don't use it to modify the preceding
vowel. I don't think I've heard that.
...

The former. Of course it's normal for non-rhotic British people to pronounce
foreign place-names non-rhotically, just as it's normal for Americans to use
the GOAT vowel in pronouncing foreign words that have "short o" sounds.
--
Jerry Friedman
Graham
2021-03-17 18:59:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
And yet USians are quite capable of using the short "o" when they say
"off of"!
Jerry Friedman
2021-03-17 19:13:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
And yet USians are quite capable of using the short "o" when they say
"off of"!
I assume that's a response to my "closest approximation" sentence.
Most of us use our THOUGHT vowel in "off", but I don't think that's usually
very close the vowel in "notre" or "costa".
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-17 20:51:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
And yet USians are quite capable of using the short "o" when they say
"off of"!
That depends on what you mean by "short o." There's no [o] in
either of those words -- [Of av].
Ken Blake
2021-03-17 21:06:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Graham
Post by Lewis
But I have certainly heard a lot of people
mispronounce things because they thought they were sounding British )or
French).
For example, most Americans pronounce "forte" as "for-tay".
Poe-de-crème
Rizoatoh
Coasta Rica
Noter Daime
Fountainblue
That's because, for most Americans, our GOAT vowel is the closest
approximation we have to the "o" vowels of Continental European
languages. (With the exception of "Fountainblue".)
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin", "Barcelona",
etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some who would put an "r"
into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
You have no idear how many people do that.
--
Ken
Kerr-Mudd,John
2021-03-17 21:27:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
By the way, I've heard British people pronounce "Berlin",
"Barcelona", etc., without the "r". I believe there are even some
who would put an "r" into "Santa Ana" and "Tuscaloosa, Alabama".
You have no idear how many people do that.
In Brigstow they (used to, anyhow) stick an 'l' on the end of words that
end in vowels.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
occam
2021-03-17 07:10:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video? His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.

More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.

The most amusing part of this video (for me) was the use of a typewriter
to spell out the names in question. It made me nostalgic for two-colour
ribbons, a luxury in its day.
Tony Cooper
2021-03-17 12:46:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video?
Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.
Post by occam
His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.
Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.
Post by occam
More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.

Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.

*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
occam
2021-03-17 13:07:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video?
Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.
Post by occam
His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.
Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.
Post by occam
More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own.
<space for delineation>
Post by Tony Cooper
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Tony Cooper
2021-03-17 13:43:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video?
Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.
Post by occam
His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.
Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.
Post by occam
More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own.
<space for delineation>
Post by Tony Cooper
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Lewis
2021-03-17 16:51:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video?
Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.
Post by occam
His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.
Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.
Post by occam
More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own.
<space for delineation>
Post by Tony Cooper
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nye-kon is how the company pronounces it in their advertising (unless
something has changed in the last 20 years).
--
"you'd think you could trust a horde of hungarian barbarians"
Ken Blake
2021-03-17 20:56:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
https://petapixel.com/2021/03/13/how-to-pronounce-german-camera-and-lens-brands-correctly/
will not have much interest to most people here because it deals with
pronouncing items (German camera bodies and lenses) with German names
properly. Only a very few of the items will be recognizable by most.
I do have a question, though. At about 50 seconds into this, the
speaker says the word "pronounciation" as "pro-nownce-ee-ation". I
think he says it the same in other place later in the video.
I say that word as "pro-nunce-ee-ation.
I have heard the "pro-nownce-ee-ation" pronunciation from others, and
it's alway bothered me.
Is the speaker's pronunciation common for others?
The speaker is clearly not a native English speaker, even thought his
English is impeccable. So why do you latch on to that element of the
video?
Because his theme was pronouncing words as they should be pronounced.
Post by occam
His pronunciation is most probably influenced by his own native
language (German). Having said that, I have heard "pro-nownce-ee-ation"
even from native speakers.
Which is not the way the word should be pronounced.
Post by occam
More interesting to me was the premise of his correspondent (and critic)
that all German names should be pronounced in their original form. We
have discussed this in AUE before ('Paris' or 'Paree'? ) and I believe
the consensus was, you pronounce it that way that is natural in your own
language. To do otherwise can be interpreted as pretentious. An English
speaker who pronounces Barcelona as 'Barth-e-lona' either has a speech
impediment or is a total dick.
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own.
<space for delineation>
Post by Tony Cooper
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
--
Ken
Quinn C
2021-03-17 22:41:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by occam
Post by Tony Cooper
My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
Would that be the "Nye-con" or "Nee-kon" for you? Perhaps
what we need is a Japanese person doing the same thing as the German
fellow, for Asian brands.
Nye-con. I have never heard the "Nee-kon" pronunciation.
Nor have I.
The Japanese pronunciation is with a short i. Somewhere between Neekon
and Nickon.

Given the spelling, I don't think that English speakers are expected to
say Canon as Kyahnon, as the Japanese do. Olympus, Panasonic or Pentax
aren't Japanese names to start with.

Most other Japanese names (I can think of) don't pose a lot of issues,
as long as you don't overdo stress. How do people say "Mamiya"? Not
Muh-my-ya, I hope. It's Mah-me-ya.

I was surprised to find "Neumann & Heilemann" as a Japanese manufacturer
in a list, but it turns out that's totally correct.
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
Graham
2021-03-17 15:17:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
Tony Cooper
2021-03-17 15:41:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
Actually, in Japan by licensing agreement by Zeiss at the Cosina
facilities.

There are some Nikon lenses made in China. I have 35mm prime lens
marked "Made In China". No pretense of any Zeiss glass.

In photography talk, the "lens" is the entire assembly of the parts
and housing that contains the actual glass or plastic lens.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Graham
2021-03-17 15:57:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
Actually, in Japan by licensing agreement by Zeiss at the Cosina
facilities.
There are some Nikon lenses made in China. I have 35mm prime lens
marked "Made In China". No pretense of any Zeiss glass.
Good to know! My Chinese-made camera has a Leica lens.
My microscope was made by Leitz in Germany, but it is ~50 years old.
Quinn C
2021-03-17 17:18:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
Actually, in Japan by licensing agreement by Zeiss at the Cosina
facilities.
Cosina? The last non-digital camera I bought was a Contax with Zeiss
lenses; at the time, that was all licensed out to Kyocera. And Cosina
was making Voigtländer brand cameras.

How confusing! It was a little later that Cosina also started making
Zeiss lenses.
--
It gets hot in Raleigh, but Texas! I don't know why anybody
lives here, honestly.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.220
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 19:05:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
Actually, in Japan by licensing agreement by Zeiss at the Cosina
facilities.
There are some Nikon lenses made in China. I have 35mm prime lens
marked "Made In China". No pretense of any Zeiss glass.
Nikon has had its own optical quality glass for a hundred years.
They don't need Zeiss for that,

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2021-03-17 15:43:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
AFAIK there is no Zeiss made in either of the Chinas.
Only Zeiss made in Japan.

Jan
Graham
2021-03-17 15:53:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Graham
Post by Tony Cooper
The subject was brand names of products, and products that are known
to only a small number of people. Small, compared to the number of
native English speakers who know and use the names of European cities.
Personally, I don't see this is an issue. Unless I'm describing my
camera possessions with a native speaker of German, if I pronounce
"Minox"* slightly different than he would, I don't see a problem.
*Minox is the only name on that list that describes a camera or lens
that I own. My kit is all Japanese (Nikon) , although some of the
lenses have Zeiss glass.
....that was probably made in China.
AFAIK there is no Zeiss made in either of the Chinas.
Only Zeiss made in Japan.
Jan
That makes a change!
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