Discussion:
Parathion - pronunciation variation
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Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-27 15:49:55 UTC
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We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/

Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?

/Anders, Denmark
Paul Carmichael
2019-10-27 16:01:06 UTC
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Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second syllable stress.
--
Paul.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-27 16:04:46 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the prefix
get stressed?
b***@aol.com
2019-10-27 16:32:04 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the prefix
get stressed?
Then why does it in e.g. "paraphrasis", "periphrasis" or "antithesis"?
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-27 17:54:23 UTC
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Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the prefix
get stressed?
Then why does it in e.g. "paraphrasis", "periphrasis" or "antithesis"?
Because those two are Greek words, not Neo-Latin words? (I've never
heard of "paraphrasis," but seeing it I would stress the first syllable
as in the other para- words formed on English roots, such as "paraphrase."
"Parabola" must have been assimilated as a whole and does not reflect a
-bola root.)
Peter Young
2019-10-27 17:53:57 UTC
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Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-27 19:45:54 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəËθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second
syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the prefix
get stressed?
Exactly. I do know the word, and the stress is definitely on the third
syllable when used in the medical world.
Likewise.

I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully camp.
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal investigations
are OK, though.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-27 21:01:31 UTC
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On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:45:54 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand
series "the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode
where the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion
/ˌparəËΞʌɪən/ Is this a NZ variation, or is
something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with
second syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the
prefix get stressed?
Exactly. I do know the word, and the stress is definitely on the
third syllable when used in the medical world.
Likewise.
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully camp.
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal investigations
are OK, though.
I quite like the series; but some of the dialog(ue) passes me by, as my
ear is not well-trained to the NZ accent.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-10-28 01:25:06 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:45:54 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand
series "the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode
where the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion
/ËŒparÉ™Ëθʌɪən/ Is this a NZ variation, or is
something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with
second syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the
prefix get stressed?
Exactly. I do know the word, and the stress is definitely on the
third syllable when used in the medical world.
Likewise.
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully camp.
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal investigations
are OK, though.
I quite like the series; but some of the dialog(ue) passes me by, as my
ear is not well-trained to the NZ accent.
Most newish TV sets and/or PVRs/DVRs can display subtitles
embedded in most newish programming, with several language choices.
Check your remote to see if you can find the subtitle settings.

bill
HVS
2019-10-27 23:42:20 UTC
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On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<***@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully camp.
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.

My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of
such shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but
lighter than "Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".

Cheers, Harvey
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-28 02:23:02 UTC
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Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of
such shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but
lighter than "Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Recently I've seen a few episodes of The Miss Fisher Mysteries. They seem
to be particularly dark but are leavened with a degree of humor. And the
Inspector isn't quite so backward as, say, Lestrade or the one on Father
Brown. It's interesting that the more socially elevated a character is,
the less Australian they sound.

(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Peter Young
2019-10-28 07:40:58 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of
such shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but
lighter than "Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Recently I've seen a few episodes of The Miss Fisher Mysteries. They seem
to be particularly dark but are leavened with a degree of humor. And the
Inspector isn't quite so backward as, say, Lestrade or the one on Father
Brown. It's interesting that the more socially elevated a character is,
the less Australian they sound.
That's quite usual in AusE. There are many registers of Australian speech.

Peter
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
RH Draney
2019-10-28 08:10:01 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Ex wikiki: "an ancient Greek courtesan"...she was most noted for being
accused of and tried for indecency, a charge of which she was acquitted
when her lawyer had her strip bare to show that so perfect a body could
not contain an imperfect soul....

In other words, an early beneficiary of "looksism"....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-28 11:55:01 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Ex wikiki: "an ancient Greek courtesan"...she was most noted for being
accused of and tried for indecency, a charge of which she was acquitted
when her lawyer had her strip bare to show that so perfect a body could
not contain an imperfect soul....
In other words, an early beneficiary of "looksism"....r
Hence the perfect name for a high-class Aussie to name their daughter
at the turn of the last century?
CDB
2019-10-28 15:30:08 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Ex wikiki: "an ancient Greek courtesan"...she was most noted for
being accused of and tried for indecency, a charge of which she was
acquitted when her lawyer had her strip bare to show that so
perfect a body could not contain an imperfect soul....
In other words, an early beneficiary of "looksism"....r
Hence the perfect name for a high-class Aussie to name their
daughter at the turn of the last century?
I stopped watching after a few episodes. I have liked most of the
programming we get from Australia, but the servility of the other
characters towards the royal rello put me off. It may be historically
accurate, but it's not how I think of Aussies.

OTOH, maybe it was a subversive gesture to give her a name that means
"toad".
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-28 15:42:27 UTC
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Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Ex wikiki: "an ancient Greek courtesan"...she was most noted for
being accused of and tried for indecency, a charge of which she was
acquitted when her lawyer had her strip bare to show that so
perfect a body could not contain an imperfect soul....
In other words, an early beneficiary of "looksism"....r
Hence the perfect name for a high-class Aussie to name their
daughter at the turn of the last century?
[The Miss Fisher Mysteries]
Post by CDB
I stopped watching after a few episodes. I have liked most of the
programming we get from Australia, but the servility of the other
characters towards the royal rello put me off. It may be historically
accurate, but it's not how I think of Aussies.
OTOH, maybe it was a subversive gesture to give her a name that means
"toad".
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?

(I don't know what season ("series") the ones channel 21.1 is showing are from.)
CDB
2019-10-29 13:22:57 UTC
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On 10/28/2019 11:42 AM, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.

[...]
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 18:46:07 UTC
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Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.

They do not seem to fit the context.
Peter Young
2019-10-29 19:58:59 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
AusE Rello = relation?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Quinn C
2019-10-29 20:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
AusE Rello = relation?
A relative. Didn't we have this convo before?
--
They spend so much time fussing about my identity
that I really shouldn't have to bother with it
myself at all.
-- Margaret Atwood, The Edible Woman, p.223
Ross
2019-10-29 21:25:39 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
AusE Rello = relation?
A relative. Didn't we have this convo before?
Australian O-clipping (Clark 2008). In NZ we say "relly".
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 21:53:38 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
AusE Rello = relation?
A relative. Didn't we have this convo before?
Australian O-clipping (Clark 2008). In NZ we say "relly".
So who in The Miss Fisher Mysteries is a "royal relative"?

(Presumably Miss Fisher, but no such connection has been mentioned in
the episodes I've seen.)
Quinn C
2019-10-30 16:49:46 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and
the tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
AusE Rello = relation?
A relative. Didn't we have this convo before?
While "convo" is marked "Australian" in the dictionaries I consulted,
I read it increasingly online, from the type of person that writes
"whatevs" or "natch" as well. I haven't heard it said, though.

A new one of this kind that I recently heard on TV was "preesh" (<
appreciated, for "thanks".)
--
If Helen Keller is alone in the forest and falls down, does she
make a sound?
CDB
2019-10-30 05:17:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and the
tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
You should have looked in *your* beloved Google.

<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/rello/alt.usage.english/TVWUB8sp6mE/oCtQqKx2CtAJ>
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 14:05:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and the
tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
You should have looked in *your* beloved Google.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/rello/alt.usage.english/TVWUB8sp6mE/oCtQqKx2CtAJ
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-10-30 14:38:25 UTC
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Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and the
tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
You should have looked in *your* beloved Google.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/rello/alt.usage.english/TVWUB8sp6mE/oCtQqKx2CtAJ
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Scrolling down that page comes to a post by Mike Lyle:

Mike L
3/31/12

I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.

"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.

I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.

--
Mike.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan
2019-10-30 16:05:53 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L
3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But I
can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my brain
to it.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2019-10-30 16:47:23 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L
3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE.
I guess that's a joke.
Post by Peter Moylan
But I can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put
my brain to it.
This is a kind of thing Wiktionary is good at:

<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-o#Suffix>

It has about 30 of them marked as mostly Australian, and my "convo"
isn't even in there.

Drongo doesn't belong, because it's not a suffixation. It's the name of
a bird, used figuratively.
--
If someone has a penis (or we think they have a penis) we use
he/him/his pronouns and treat them like a boy/man. If someone
has a vagina (or we think they have a vagina) we use she/her/
hers pronouns and treat them like a girl/woman.
See what I did there? -- Kyl Myers
Ross
2019-10-30 20:21:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L
3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But I
can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my brain
to it.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Drongo (first a bird, then a stupid person) is from Malagasy, says OED.
I didn't know that.

Smoko is used in NZ, and a few others. The derivation process was around
in the days when the colonial dialects were taking shape, but has been
more widely applied in Australia.

I saw a bit of Chris Lilley's series "Summer Heights High", and I'm
pretty sure his snobby rich girl character used "pov-os" to mean
"poor people". Possibly a nonce creation?
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 03:28:28 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L 3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I
too am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon "Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan
Thompson", among others "reffo" - refugee "compo" is Brit as well
as Aus. "rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either
to people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE.
But I can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my
put my brain to it.
Drongo (first a bird, then a stupid person) is from Malagasy, says
OED. I didn't know that.
Smoko is used in NZ, and a few others. The derivation process was
around in the days when the colonial dialects were taking shape, but
has been more widely applied in Australia.
I saw a bit of Chris Lilley's series "Summer Heights High", and I'm
pretty sure his snobby rich girl character used "pov-os" to mean
"poor people". Possibly a nonce creation?
At first I read that as "provo", which used to be a term for the
provisional IRA. And that reminds me that we used to use "nasho" (short
for National Service) for military conscripts.

I've never heard the word "povos", but that could be because I'm not
well in touch with the slang used by young people today.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Ken Blake
2019-10-31 17:24:41 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L
3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But I
can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my brain
to it.
"Piano" is very different from all those others. It's not formed by
adding "o" to an abbreviation; it's an abbreviation by itself. It's
short for "pianoforte."
--
Ken
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-31 20:05:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
     Mike L
     3/31/12
     I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
     am surprised to find I can't.
     "arvo" - afternoon
     "Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
     "reffo" - refugee
     "compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
     "rello" - relation.
     I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
     people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But I
can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my brain
to it.
"Piano" is very different from all those others. It's not formed by
adding "o" to an abbreviation; it's an abbreviation by itself. It's
short for "pianoforte."
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 20:15:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
     I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either
     to people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But
I can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my
brain to it.
"Piano" is very different from all those others. It's not formed by
adding "o" to an abbreviation; it's an abbreviation by itself. It's
short for "pianoforte."
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
"Clavicembalo con piano e forte," origin-ally.
musika
2019-10-31 21:13:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
     I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either
     to people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But
I can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my
brain to it.
"Piano" is very different from all those others. It's not formed by
adding "o" to an abbreviation; it's an abbreviation by itself. It's
short for "pianoforte."
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
"Clavicembalo con piano e forte," origin-ally.
Gravicembalo col piano e forte.
--
Ray
UK
Ken Blake
2019-10-31 21:17:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
     Mike L
     3/31/12
     I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
     am surprised to find I can't.
     "arvo" - afternoon
     "Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
     "reffo" - refugee
     "compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
     "rello" - relation.
     I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
     people or to things.
The obvious addition is "piano", which I think also exists in BrE. But I
can add drongo, garbo, smoko, and probably a few more if my put my brain
to it.
"Piano" is very different from all those others. It's not formed by
adding "o" to an abbreviation; it's an abbreviation by itself. It's
short for "pianoforte."
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
No, not really. "Pianoforte" and "fortepiano" were the original names of
those instruments. "Piano" is a shortening that came later.

The harpsichord, which preceded them, has a fixed volume when you stroke
a key. As opposed to the harpsichord, the "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano" can be played either louder or softer, depending on how
hard you press the key. That why they're called "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano," which mean soft-loud and loud-soft.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-10-31 22:24:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
No, not really. "Pianoforte" and "fortepiano" were the original names of
those instruments. "Piano" is a shortening that came later.
The harpsichord, which preceded them, has a fixed volume when you stroke
 a key. As opposed to the harpsichord, the "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano" can be played either louder or softer, depending on how
hard you press the key. That why they're called "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano,"  which mean soft-loud and loud-soft.
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....

(Schickele also told, on two separate episodes of his NPR show, of the
Italian coastal village where high-pitched sounds were highly prized, so
a custom developed of boiling wooden flutes in oil in special copper
pans over fires on the beach...the oil would soak into the grain of the
wood, and the cooking process would cause them to shrink to half their
original size, which as anyone familiar with acoustics can tell you made
them play an octave higher...this is said to be the origin of the
piccolo, and the festival in which the process was carried out became
known as the Mediterranean flute-fry)....r
Quinn C
2019-11-01 16:13:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
No, not really. "Pianoforte" and "fortepiano" were the original names of
those instruments. "Piano" is a shortening that came later.
The harpsichord, which preceded them, has a fixed volume when you stroke
 a key. As opposed to the harpsichord, the "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano" can be played either louder or softer, depending on how
hard you press the key. That why they're called "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano,"  which mean soft-loud and loud-soft.
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Post by RH Draney
(Schickele also told, on two separate episodes of his NPR show, of the
Italian coastal village where high-pitched sounds were highly prized, so
a custom developed of boiling wooden flutes in oil in special copper
pans over fires on the beach...the oil would soak into the grain of the
wood, and the cooking process would cause them to shrink to half their
original size, which as anyone familiar with acoustics can tell you made
them play an octave higher...this is said to be the origin of the
piccolo, and the festival in which the process was carried out became
known as the Mediterranean flute-fry)....r
That story was so long it made my drosy.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
b***@aol.com
2019-11-02 06:30:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Sam Plusnet
Whilst "pianoforte" (and "fortepiano") is an elaboration of "piano".
No, not really. "Pianoforte" and "fortepiano" were the original names of
those instruments. "Piano" is a shortening that came later.
The harpsichord, which preceded them, has a fixed volume when you stroke
 a key. As opposed to the harpsichord, the "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano" can be played either louder or softer, depending on how
hard you press the key. That why they're called "pianoforte" and
"fortepiano,"  which mean soft-loud and loud-soft.
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
(Schickele also told, on two separate episodes of his NPR show, of the
Italian coastal village where high-pitched sounds were highly prized, so
a custom developed of boiling wooden flutes in oil in special copper
pans over fires on the beach...the oil would soak into the grain of the
wood, and the cooking process would cause them to shrink to half their
original size, which as anyone familiar with acoustics can tell you made
them play an octave higher...this is said to be the origin of the
piccolo, and the festival in which the process was carried out became
known as the Mediterranean flute-fry)....r
That story was so long it made my drosy.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 12:05:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
b***@aol.com
2019-11-02 15:36:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
It can also be a noun and refer to an instrument:

---
alto noun

al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
---
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 22:48:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Ross
2019-11-03 02:35:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.

Aspery played alto with the Middlesbrough municipal jazz orchestra...

This album is an oft-overlooked item in the Coleman canon because of
Ornette's choice of axe, the assumption probably being that a tenor
dilettante couldn't make a great tenor album. But Ornette had an early
history playing the larger horn, and his approach on tenor is not all
that different from his approach playing alto.
(Review of 1962 Ornette Coleman album, "Ornette on Tenor")

Mulligan played baritone and wrote some of his best numbers and arrangements
for the group...
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-03 14:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
(Where else would you find an ensemble of saxophones?)
Post by Ross
Aspery played alto with the Middlesbrough municipal jazz orchestra...
Unless you know who Aspery is, that's problematic because the alto flute
is also used in jazz.
Post by Ross
This album is an oft-overlooked item in the Coleman canon because of
Ornette's choice of axe, the assumption probably being that a tenor
dilettante couldn't make a great tenor album. But Ornette had an early
history playing the larger horn, and his approach on tenor is not all
that different from his approach playing alto.
(Review of 1962 Ornette Coleman album, "Ornette on Tenor")
Though "axe" usually means 'guitar' these days. Maybe back then it meant
whichever "tool" the person played?

Again, if you don't know who Ornette is, the first assumption is that he
was a singer with a higher-range voice ("a tenor").
Post by Ross
Mulligan played baritone and wrote some of his best numbers and arrangements
for the group...
"Baritone" by itself is far more common, because it can only be a sax
(operatic baritones don't "play"). There are bass flutes, but no baritone
flotes.
Peter Young
2019-11-03 16:01:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Ross
2019-11-03 20:17:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
(Where else would you find an ensemble of saxophones?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone_quartet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Aspery played alto with the Middlesbrough municipal jazz orchestra...
Unless you know who Aspery is, that's problematic because the alto flute
is also used in jazz.
Almost any instrument you can name has, at one time or other, been used
in jazz. In the extremely unlikely event that Aspery was a specialist
who played only alto flute in that orchestra, it would have been referred
to as "alto flute".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
This album is an oft-overlooked item in the Coleman canon because of
Ornette's choice of axe, the assumption probably being that a tenor
dilettante couldn't make a great tenor album. But Ornette had an early
history playing the larger horn, and his approach on tenor is not all
that different from his approach playing alto.
(Review of 1962 Ornette Coleman album, "Ornette on Tenor")
Though "axe" usually means 'guitar' these days. Maybe back then it meant
whichever "tool" the person played?
It meant "instrument".
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Again, if you don't know who Ornette is, the first assumption is that he
was a singer with a higher-range voice ("a tenor").
Nobody reading that review would make such an assumption, or would fail to
know who Ornette was.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Mulligan played baritone and wrote some of his best numbers and arrangements
for the group...
"Baritone" by itself is far more common, because it can only be a sax
(operatic baritones don't "play"). There are bass flutes, but no baritone
flotes.
So after all the quibbling, you're willing to believe me.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-03 23:48:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
This album is an oft-overlooked item in the Coleman canon because of
Ornette's choice of axe, the assumption probably being that a tenor
dilettante couldn't make a great tenor album. But Ornette had an early
history playing the larger horn, and his approach on tenor is not all
that different from his approach playing alto.
(Review of 1962 Ornette Coleman album, "Ornette on Tenor")
Though "axe" usually means 'guitar' these days. Maybe back then it meant
whichever "tool" the person played?
It meant "instrument".
...

And is particularly nice for an electric guitar because of the shape and
a sax because of the rhyme. I assume.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2019-11-03 17:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
I assume you mean alto and tenor. Soprano is also becoming more common
these days.
--
Ken
Ross
2019-11-03 20:26:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
I assume you mean alto and tenor. Soprano is also becoming more common
these days.
--
Ken
It might be more popular now than in my youth, but there have been great
players since Sidney Bechet. Likewise for baritone (Harry Carney in
Ellington's band, Gerry Mulligan). But these have alwayss been outnumbered
by alto and tenor soloists.
Ken Blake
2019-11-03 20:38:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by RH Draney
Peter Schickele once told the story of an orchestra conductor chatting
with his performers, who mentioned that the piccolo was the only
instrument with an adjective for its name, whereupon the pianist stood
up and walked out....
Bass; celesta; ...?
Alto.
That's the French word for viola. In English it's only an adjective (or
the name of a choral voice range). Alto sax, for instance.
Namely, the viola.
Post by b***@aol.com
---
alto noun
al·​to | \ ˈal-(ˌ)tō , ˈȯl-\
plural altos
Definition of alto (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: COUNTERTENOR
b: CONTRALTO
2: the second highest voice part in a 4-part chorus
3: a member of a family of instruments having a range lower than that
of the treble or soprano
especially : an alto saxophone
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Post by b***@aol.com
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alto
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
I assume you mean alto and tenor. Soprano is also becoming more common
these days.
--
Ken
It might be more popular now than in my youth, but there have been great
players since Sidney Bechet. Likewise for baritone (Harry Carney in
Ellington's band, Gerry Mulligan). But these have alwayss been outnumbered
by alto and tenor soloists.
Yes, no argument from me. But still I would say a soprano sax is pretty
commonplace these days. More commomplace than baritones, in my experience.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-11-03 22:29:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The only time you could refer to an alto sax as "the alto" is when you are
referring specifically within an ensemble of saxophones, and there it can
only be construed as the adjective used elliptically.
Or in jazz discourse, where at least two saxophones are commonplace
instruments.
I assume you mean alto and tenor. Soprano is also becoming more common
these days.
It might be more popular now than in my youth, but there have been great
players since Sidney Bechet. Likewise for baritone (Harry Carney in
Ellington's band, Gerry Mulligan). But these have alwayss been outnumbered
by alto and tenor soloists.
And now, here's Ozzie Nelson to weigh in on the topic:



....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 17:46:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:05:21 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by CDB
[Fisher of Fisher Hall]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Sorry, what's a "royal rello"?
An Anglo-Australianism.
Your beloved Google tells me that "rello" is 'a kind of cigar'; 'a
cigarette'; or 'a cigar that has been sliced open lengthwise and the
tobacco replaced with marijuana'.
They do not seem to fit the context.
You should have looked in *your* beloved Google.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/rello/alt.usage.english/TVWUB8sp6mE/oCtQqKx2CtAJ
?? What does a 2012 AUE posting about Hindi "dekko" have to do with anything?
Mike L
3/31/12
I thought I was going to come up with lots of "-o" slang, but I too
am surprised to find I can't.
"arvo" - afternoon
"Tommo" - the Thompson bit of "Lililan Thompson", among others
"reffo" - refugee
"compo" is Brit as well as Aus.
"rello" - relation.
I've run dry. But I don't think the "-o" form is biased either to
people or to things.
That was a link to a message from _you_!

Just here we get "convo" every so often, and enough others that I learned
about the Aussie -o thing.

It doesn't help with the reference to Miss Fisher.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-28 16:44:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(And what kind of name is "Phryne"?)
Ex wikiki: "an ancient Greek courtesan"...she was most noted for
being accused of and tried for indecency, a charge of which she was
acquitted when her lawyer had her strip bare to show that so
perfect a body could not contain an imperfect soul....
In other words, an early beneficiary of "looksism"....r
Hence the perfect name for a high-class Aussie to name their
daughter at the turn of the last century?
I stopped watching after a few episodes. I have liked most of the
programming we get from Australia, but the servility of the other
characters towards the royal rello put me off. It may be historically
accurate, but it's not how I think of Aussies.
OTOH, maybe it was a subversive gesture to give her a name that means
"toad".
I watched several episodes. It was one of those programs where the
scenery and the costumes and the automobiles (eg: the 1924
Hispano-Suiza that is Miss Fisher's ride) were of more interest than
the plot. Essie Davis, who is about 45, looks like a 30 year-old.

There are jobs that must be a continual delight to the job-holder. One
of those is the costume designer for Essie Davis. Every scene is a
new costume and no expense seems to be too much.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-28 16:11:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp" strikes
me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.

The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?

/Anders, Denmark.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-28 16:39:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
Ross
2019-10-28 21:01:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---

The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
Susan Sontag, where a broader concept is proposed:

https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-28 21:41:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Sontag's essay is incomprehensible (must have been even more so back
when it was published) and influenced only those who would eventually
turn into postmodernists. BrE apparently uses "camp" for nothing but
'effeminate'; AmE, back when it used it, used it for a certain sensibility
that might be embodied by (to pick names likely to be recognizable to the
gen.pub.) John Waters and Divine.

I did not know until she died that she was the life-partner of Annie
Liebowitz (the photographer).

TV Batman was interpreted as camp but hadn't been intended as camp.
Ross
2019-10-28 22:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Sontag's essay is incomprehensible (must have been even more so back
when it was published) and influenced only those who would eventually
turn into postmodernists. BrE apparently uses "camp" for nothing but
'effeminate'; AmE, back when it used it, used it for a certain sensibility
that might be embodied by (to pick names likely to be recognizable to the
gen.pub.) John Waters and Divine.
I did not know until she died that she was the life-partner of Annie
Liebowitz (the photographer).
TV Batman was interpreted as camp but hadn't been intended as camp.
It was intended as "pop", very much of the time. I remember an amusing
piece, probably in the New Yorker, possibly by Donald Barthelme, with
trendy intellectuals arguing about whether various things were "pop" or
"camp".
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 18:41:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Ross
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Sontag's essay is incomprehensible (must have been even more so back
when it was published) and influenced only those who would eventually
turn into postmodernists. BrE apparently uses "camp" for nothing but
'effeminate'; AmE, back when it used it, used it for a certain sensibility
that might be embodied by (to pick names likely to be recognizable to the
gen.pub.) John Waters and Divine.
I did not know until she died that she was the life-partner of Annie
Liebowitz (the photographer).
TV Batman was interpreted as camp but hadn't been intended as camp.
It was intended as "pop", very much of the time. I remember an amusing
piece, probably in the New Yorker, possibly by Donald Barthelme, with
trendy intellectuals arguing about whether various things were "pop" or
"camp".
Perhaps before my time? In response to Sontag? My subscription began in
1973 -- when I moved to Chicago -- and I soon learned to not even _try_
to read either of the Barthelmes.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-28 22:12:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Or she got that concept from people (mostly gay men?) who she knew.

Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2019-10-29 00:49:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Or she got that concept from people (mostly gay men?) who she knew.
I don't see that as an "or". But she gave it a much
wider currency.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-29 14:18:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Or she got that concept from people (mostly gay men?) who she knew.
I don't see that as an "or". But she gave it a much
wider currency.
I may have misunderstood your "proposed".
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004. Tony Cooper had "Areff"
(Richard Fontana) to argue with in those days. I quote Tony:

'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'

Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying. Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help out here) be
based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young people always have
some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.

Here are a couple of forum threads where people ask about "campy" (much
easier to search for than this sense of "camp").

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24710/what-does-campy-mean

And with an excerpt:

"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?

"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-29 14:39:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 5:39:24 AM UTC+13, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by HVS
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 20:45:54 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
-snip -
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was surprised that Anders described Brokenwood as delightfully
camp.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
We haven't found it delightfully anything. The criminal
investigations
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
are OK, though.
I don't have a problem with "delightfully" something, but "camp"
strikes me as an odd description for it.
My wife and I enjoy it, and it's definitely on the lighter side of such
shows - I'd say it's darker than "Murder in Paradise", but lighter than
"Vera" - but I wouldn't have called it "camp".
Well, perhaps it is not "camp" I'm after, but they do seem not to take
anything seriously, including themselves, and the show as such.
The wiki-definition on
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_(style)>
goes "Camp is an aesthetic style and sensibility that regards something
as appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value"
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
ostentatiously homosexual manner.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
... which tallies nicely with my perception of Brokenwood.
Even now that I know your definition I don't see how it relates to
Brokenwood. However, I've only watched it in French, and in the
original the innuendos may be more obvious.
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Another show I heard described as "camp" was the Batman TV series from
the 1960's with Burt Ward and Adam West - am I the only one to see
any similarity? Or is "camp" also inapt for that?
/Anders, Denmark.
--
athel
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
---
The "effeminate or homosexual" part is likely to be salient for
Br/Aus/NZ speakers, I think. Anders' understanding, however,
may derive from an influential 1964 essay by literary theorist
https://monoskop.org/images/5/59/Sontag_Susan_1964_Notes_on_Camp.pdf
Or she got that concept from people (mostly gay men?) who she knew.
I don't see that as an "or". But she gave it a much
wider currency.
I may have misunderstood your "proposed".
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004.  Tony Cooper had "Areff"
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school.  I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses.  "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying.  Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help out here) be
based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young people always have
some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
Here are a couple of forum threads where people ask about "campy" (much
easier to search for than this sense of "camp").
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24710/what-does-campy-mean
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with nothing
to do with sexual orientation. On that subject I'll quote a responder
at the stackexchange thread.

'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'

So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
--
Jerry Friedman recently went to a straight wedding where the band was
fronted by a drag queen who sang "Sweet Transvestite".
Madhu
2019-10-29 15:53:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
* Jerry Friedman <qp9ive$l81$***@news.albasani.net> :
Wrote on Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:39:40 -0600:

[reddit]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with
nothing to do with sexual orientation. On that subject I'll quote a
responder at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
That poster's generation|subculture wouldn't know gay if it ....

They are probably programmed to be blind to it or to avoid it for
"political reasons"
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-29 16:10:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Madhu
[reddit]
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with
nothing to do with sexual orientation. On that subject I'll quote a
responder at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
That poster's generation|subculture wouldn't know gay if it ....
They are probably programmed to be blind to it or to avoid it for
"political reasons"
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 13:58:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[camp]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004.  Tony Cooper had
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school.  I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses.  "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went
without saying.  Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help
out here) be based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young
people always have some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
Here are a couple of forum threads where people ask about "campy"
(much easier to search for than this sense of "camp").
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24710/what-does-campy-mean
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with nothing
to do with sexual orientation.  On that subject I'll quote a responder
at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
Did you see this, Ross? I hope it answered your question.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2019-10-30 20:05:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[camp]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004.  Tony Cooper had
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school.  I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses.  "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went
without saying.  Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help
out here) be based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young
people always have some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
Here are a couple of forum threads where people ask about "campy"
(much easier to search for than this sense of "camp").
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24710/what-does-campy-mean
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with nothing
to do with sexual orientation.  On that subject I'll quote a responder
at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
Did you see this, Ross? I hope it answered your question.
--
Jerry Friedman
It's one of those things I've never sat through the whole of, but have
heard so much description of, seen so many bits of, that I have a general
idea of what it's like. Thanks for the additional material, in which I
note that, like Barthelme's characters, people can't agree on whether
particular cases are camp or not. So glad I don't have to take sides.
Quinn C
2019-10-30 21:54:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with nothing
to do with sexual orientation.  On that subject I'll quote a responder
at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
Did you see this, Ross? I hope it answered your question.
It's one of those things I've never sat through the whole of, but have
heard so much description of, seen so many bits of, that I have a general
idea of what it's like. Thanks for the additional material, in which I
note that, like Barthelme's characters, people can't agree on whether
particular cases are camp or not. So glad I don't have to take sides.
I've never quite figured out what "camp" means. My first encounter with
it was in the Sontag essay, which didn't work at all, because the essay
presupposes a certain idea of what it refers to. But it never gelled in
the decades since, either, and I believe I've never used it.
--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 20:17:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
[camp]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004.  Tony Cooper had
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school.  I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses.  "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went
without saying.  Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help
out here) be based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young
people always have some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
Here are a couple of forum threads where people ask about "campy"
(much easier to search for than this sense of "camp").
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/24710/what-does-campy-mean
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I'll add that you'll see a lot of disagreements at those threads, but
most people are setting up camp in the irony-parody field, with nothing
to do with sexual orientation.  On that subject I'll quote a responder
at the stackexchange thread.
'I would define it as "so bad that it's good (but often
unintentionally)". Examples could include /Plan 9 from Outer Space/ and
the /Batman/ TV series. In contrast, something like /Airplane/ or /The
Rocky Horror Picture Show/ were deliberately done "badly" for humorous
effect.'
So for that person, /Rocky Horror/, which was the most flauntingly gay
thing most of us had seen at that time, was not camp.
Did you see this, Ross? I hope it answered your question.
--
Jerry Friedman
It's one of those things I've never sat through the whole of, but have
heard so much description of, seen so many bits of, that I have a general
idea of what it's like. Thanks for the additional material, in which I
note that, like Barthelme's characters, people can't agree on whether
particular cases are camp or not. So glad I don't have to take sides.
Glad it was useful, and I agree completely about not taking sides.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-10-29 14:52:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:18:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004. Tony Cooper had "Areff"
(Richard Fontana) to argue with in those days.
Ah, but with Areff it was good-natured arguing.
Post by Jerry Friedman
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
That was an exchange based on how "camp" was used by high school
students in this area. When my son was in high school in 2004, he
didn't say anything about any homosexual slurs or even homosexual
discrimination. If either existed, he never said anything about it to
me and we had a fairly open relationship about such thing.

Our daughter's experience (2 years older than our son) in high school
was the same. One of the crowd she hung out with was openly gay and
rather swishy at times. (Our house was a popular hang-out for the
group, so I did notice such things.) Her date at the Senior Prom is
now in a same-sex marriage, but he was not "out" at the time. They
still keep in touch on FaceBook.

I think my son and his friends would have resented any association of
"camp" with swishiness. They didn't mean it that way. "Camp" was
excessive, theatrical, or dramatic in some way.

"Goth" was also popular in their high school days. Goth was dressing
in all black, stud collars, and purple or black lipstick. They were
excessive and theatrical, but not in a "camp" way. "Camp" was light;
Goth was dark.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying. Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help out here) be
based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young people always have
some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
My son's "camp" effort was sometimes wearing vintage bowling shirts.
He found some shirts at Goodwill with someone else's name embroidered
on them and some bowling club's logo on the back.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 18:50:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:18:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
That was an exchange based on how "camp" was used by high school
students in this area. When my son was in high school in 2004, he
didn't say anything about any homosexual slurs or even homosexual
discrimination. If either existed, he never said anything about it to
me and we had a fairly open relationship about such thing.
By then, there was no stigma in that generation about same-sex orientation.
"Gay" was a generalized insulting adjective, and the kids who used it that
way perceived no connection whatsoever with the "gay and lesbian" sense.
Linguists and lexicographers would say they are two different lexical items.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying.
By then, it certainly did, though perhaps the news hadn't trickled down
to Florida yet.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-29 19:10:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:18:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
That was an exchange based on how "camp" was used by high school
students in this area. When my son was in high school in 2004, he
didn't say anything about any homosexual slurs or even homosexual
discrimination. If either existed, he never said anything about it to
me and we had a fairly open relationship about such thing.
By then, there was no stigma in that generation about same-sex orientation.
"Gay" was a generalized insulting adjective, and the kids who used it that
way perceived no connection whatsoever with the "gay and lesbian" sense.
Linguists and lexicographers would say they are two different lexical items.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying.
By then, it certainly did, though perhaps the news hadn't trickled down
to Florida yet.
Jerry is not in Florida. I did not write the above line. Chevrons
are a clue.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 21:16:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:18:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
That was an exchange based on how "camp" was used by high school
students in this area. When my son was in high school in 2004, he
didn't say anything about any homosexual slurs or even homosexual
discrimination. If either existed, he never said anything about it to
me and we had a fairly open relationship about such thing.
By then, there was no stigma in that generation about same-sex orientation.
"Gay" was a generalized insulting adjective, and the kids who used it that
way perceived no connection whatsoever with the "gay and lesbian" sense.
Linguists and lexicographers would say they are two different lexical items.
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Jerry Friedman
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying.
By then, it certainly did, though perhaps the news hadn't trickled down
to Florida yet.
Jerry is not in Florida. I did not write the above line. Chevrons
are a clue.
I was, obviously, suggesting that you hadn't gotten the message -- of
the meaning of the word as set forth by Jerry.

Do try to read for context.
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 04:31:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:18:48 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
This is clearly a use of "camp" that I've never met before. To me it
refers to the sort of style I associate with Kenneth Williams -- an
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony, self-parody,
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
--
Jerry Friedman
Got a couple of current examples that those of us in remote
parts might be familiar with?
Here's an a.u.e. thread on the word from 2004. Tony Cooper had "Areff"
(Richard Fontana) to argue with in those days.
Ah, but with Areff it was good-natured arguing.
Post by Jerry Friedman
'It may be regional, but dressing "campy" was a fad when my son was in
high school. I remember him calling one of the girls the "camp vamp"
because she frequently wore beaded vintage dresses. "Camp" was not
"swishy".'
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.usage.english/CVTyA9HEH0s/BdZnHz-pptEJ'
That was an exchange based on how "camp" was used by high school
students in this area. When my son was in high school in 2004, he
didn't say anything about any homosexual slurs or even homosexual
discrimination. If either existed, he never said anything about it to
me and we had a fairly open relationship about such thing.
Our daughter's experience (2 years older than our son) in high school
was the same. One of the crowd she hung out with was openly gay and
rather swishy at times. (Our house was a popular hang-out for the
group, so I did notice such things.) Her date at the Senior Prom is
now in a same-sex marriage, but he was not "out" at the time. They
still keep in touch on FaceBook.
I think my son and his friends would have resented any association of
"camp" with swishiness. They didn't mean it that way. "Camp" was
excessive, theatrical, or dramatic in some way.
"Goth" was also popular in their high school days. Goth was dressing
in all black, stud collars, and purple or black lipstick. They were
excessive and theatrical, but not in a "camp" way. "Camp" was light;
Goth was dark.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Areff seems to have thought that Susan Sontag's definition went without
saying. Tony's and his son's definition may (Tony can help out here) be
based on the idea that "retro" clothes worn by young people always have
some self-conscious irony, a pose to be seen through.
My son's "camp" effort was sometimes wearing vintage bowling shirts.
He found some shirts at Goodwill with someone else's name embroidered
on them and some bowling club's logo on the back.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 04:40:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I didn't write that, but that's my usage, with Andy Warhol added in.
I'd accept that /La Cage Aux Folies/ is camp, although it reportedly
doesn't have "Biff!", "Zap!", or "Pow!"

(Batman was junior and senior high school for me)
A person I was talking last night, slightly younger than me,
has about the same definition.
Raised in SoCal, and graduated from UCS.

/dps
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 04:55:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I didn't write that, but that's my usage, with Andy Warhol added in.
I'd accept that /La Cage Aux Folies/ is camp, although it reportedly
doesn't have "Biff!", "Zap!", or "Pow!"
(Batman was junior and senior high school for me, raised in Oregon)
A person I was talking last night, slightly younger than me,
has about the same definition.
Raised in SoCal, and graduated from UCS
USCB, to keep an important inital.

And I'm back to ask if Barney's before 2010 would have been camp?

(I've just been reading the Firefox edition of _The Cut_'s article
on the bankruptcy.)

/dps
s***@gmail.com
2019-11-02 04:57:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I didn't write that, but that's my usage, with Andy Warhol added in.
I'd accept that /La Cage Aux Folies/ is camp, although it reportedly
doesn't have "Biff!", "Zap!", or "Pow!"
(Batman was junior and senior high school for me, raised in Oregon)
A person I was talking last night, slightly younger than me,
has about the same definition.
Raised in SoCal, and graduated from UCS
USCB, to keep an important inital.
And I'm back to ask if Barney's before 2010 would have been camp?
(I've just been reading the Firefox edition of _The Cut_'s article
on the bankruptcy.)
/dps
Quote of their best quote: Glenn O'Brien, involved in the ad copy --
"Ruth had multiple personalities. They all had credit cards."

/dps
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-02 14:14:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I didn't write that, but that's my usage, with Andy Warhol added in.
I'd accept that /La Cage Aux Folies/ is camp, although it reportedly
doesn't have "Biff!", "Zap!", or "Pow!"
(Batman was junior and senior high school for me, raised in Oregon)
A person I was talking last night, slightly younger than me,
has about the same definition.
Raised in SoCal, and graduated from UCS
USCB, to keep an important inital.
And I'm back to ask if Barney's before 2010 would have been camp?
(I've just been reading the Firefox edition of _The Cut_'s article
on the bankruptcy.)
/dps
Quote of their best quote: Glenn O'Brien, involved in the ad copy --
"Ruth had multiple personalities. They all had credit cards."
Ah, that's enough to search for.

"The department store — where Andy Warhol and Carrie Bradshaw both
shopped — is in bankruptcy; its future is uncertain."

I've heard of Andy Warhol.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-02 22:45:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by s***@gmail.com
And I'm back to ask if Barney's before 2010 would have been camp?
(I've just been reading the Firefox edition of _The Cut_'s article
on the bankruptcy.)
Quote of their best quote: Glenn O'Brien, involved in the ad copy --
"Ruth had multiple personalities. They all had credit cards."
Ah, that's enough to search for.
"The department store — where Andy Warhol and Carrie Bradshaw both
shopped — is in bankruptcy; its future is uncertain."
I've heard of Andy Warhol.
Barney's has figured in all sorts of (NY-based) movies and sitcoms. Jack
McFarlane on *Will & Grace* had a job there as window-dresser for a while.
It's not exactly a department store, but a fashionable men's clothier. As
its ubiquitous ads pointed out, it was at Seventh Avenue and 17th Street.
I thought of it just this afternoon when I noted Eighth Avenue and 18th
Street while riding the M20 bus up to the Port Authority Bus Terminal.

Though I don't know why 2010 would be significant.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-03 15:10:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 02 Nov 2019 22:45:49 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by s***@gmail.com
wro
Post by s***@gmail.com
And I'm back to ask if Barney's before 2010 would have been camp?
(I've just been reading the Firefox edition of _The Cut_'s article
on the bankruptcy.)
Quote of their best quote: Glenn O'Brien, involved in the ad copy
-- "Ruth had multiple personalities. They all had credit cards."
Ah, that's enough to search for.
"The department store — where Andy Warhol and Carrie Bradshaw bot
h
Post by Jerry Friedman
shopped — is in bankruptcy; its future is uncertain."
I've heard of Andy Warhol.
Barney's has figured in all sorts of (NY-based) movies and sitcoms.
Jack McFarlane on *Will & Grace* had a job there as window-dresser for
a while. It's not exactly a department store, but a fashionable men's
clothier. As its ubiquitous ads pointed out, it was at Seventh Avenue
and 17th Street. I thought of it just this afternoon when I noted
Eighth Avenue and 18th Street while riding the M20 bus up to the Port
Authority Bus Terminal.
Though I don't know why 2010 would be significant.
This information is of no use to me.
I'm going to give up on you, sorry.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
b***@aol.com
2019-11-02 06:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
"You know the Batman TV series from the 60s with Adam West in the title
role?
"*That* is camp. It over-exaggerates everything about comic books to the
point it becomes a parody. Batman isn't just a moral person, he's a
SUPER moral person. When he and Robin are investigating a museum and the
person at the door offers to let them in free of charge Batman refuses
the largess and insists on paying the full admission."
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/52f84d/can_someone_explain_what_campy_means/
I didn't write that, but that's my usage, with Andy Warhol added in.
I'd accept that /La Cage Aux Folies/
/La Cage Aux Folles/
Post by s***@gmail.com
is camp, although it reportedly
doesn't have "Biff!", "Zap!", or "Pow!"
(Batman was junior and senior high school for me)
A person I was talking last night, slightly younger than me,
has about the same definition.
Raised in SoCal, and graduated from UCS.
/dps
HVS
2019-10-29 01:31:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:12:07 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<***@yahoo.com> wrote:

-snip-

Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.

Cheers, Harvey
CDB
2019-10-29 13:23:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-29 15:44:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not that I've noticed. The main difference from most of the police
series that one sees in France is that the detectives ae physically
unattractive. That's probably realistic, but people who watch police
series are not usually looking for realism.
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2019-10-29 17:57:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:44:31 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not that I've noticed. The main difference from most of the police
series that one sees in France is that the detectives ae physically
unattractive. That's probably realistic, but people who watch police
series are not usually looking for realism.
While I watch several UK/Australian/New Zealand shows on Acorn, I've
not seen any French shows. However, "The Tunnel" (PBS) had both
British and French detectives. I didn't notice any that were
particularly unattractive.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-29 19:15:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:44:31 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not that I've noticed. The main difference from most of the police
series that one sees in France is that the detectives ae physically
unattractive. That's probably realistic, but people who watch police
series are not usually looking for realism.
While I watch several UK/Australian/New Zealand shows on Acorn, I've
not seen any French shows. However, "The Tunnel" (PBS) had both
British and French detectives. I didn't notice any that were
particularly unattractive.
I think I was unclear, or you interpret it the opposite from what I
meant. In Brokenwood neither the main detective nor his sidekick are at
all nice-looking. In modern American TV, you can be sure that if there
is an authority figure like a trial judge or police chief she will be
female, or black, or both, but not necessarily young. On French TV they
don't care all much about the colour of their police chiefs, but they
do like them to be attractive women.
--
athel
Tony Cooper
2019-10-29 20:21:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 20:15:52 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:44:31 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not that I've noticed. The main difference from most of the police
series that one sees in France is that the detectives ae physically
unattractive. That's probably realistic, but people who watch police
series are not usually looking for realism.
While I watch several UK/Australian/New Zealand shows on Acorn, I've
not seen any French shows. However, "The Tunnel" (PBS) had both
British and French detectives. I didn't notice any that were
particularly unattractive.
I think I was unclear, or you interpret it the opposite from what I
meant. In Brokenwood neither the main detective nor his sidekick are at
all nice-looking. In modern American TV, you can be sure that if there
is an authority figure like a trial judge or police chief she will be
female, or black, or both, but not necessarily young. On French TV they
don't care all much about the colour of their police chiefs, but they
do like them to be attractive women.
I no longer watch much in the way of U.S. police procedurals anymore.
My current view of "live" (but I record them) U.S. programming is
pretty much limited to what's on PBS (anything on "Masterpiece"*),
HBO, or Showtime. And, of course, John Oliver and Stephen Colbert.

I scrounge around in Netflix and Acorn to find something watchable.
Last night it was the new episodes of "The Kominsky Method" on
Netflix. (Great show!)

My pet peeve with most U.S. casting is in any program with teenagers.
Hollywood (generic for the source) casts 30 year-olds as high school
students. The "high schoolers" are more likely to have arthritis than
acne.

*Except the new season of "Poldark". There may not be sharks off that
coast of England, but Poldark has jumped the shark.

"Press" is good, but we missed two episodes (the first and one when we
were in the process of moving) and it's one of those shows where you
have to keep up with the characters to figure out what's going on.
Lottsa "We can tell who you've based this character on!".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 06:16:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
*Except the new season of "Poldark". There may not be sharks off that
coast of England, but Poldark has jumped the shark.
I don't think we get Poldark in France. I've only seen one episode,
when we were in Riga. Without any context, or knowledge of the
characters, it was difficult to follow. If it had been in Latvian it
would have been impossible, but it was in English.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-30 10:15:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 06:16:34 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ 
 ]
*Except the new season of "Poldark". There may not be sharks off that
coast of England, but Poldark has jumped the shark.
We get the odd basking shark off Cornwall; but nothing to get worried
about.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I don't think we get Poldark in France. I've only seen one episode,
when we were in Riga. Without any context, or knowledge of the
characters, it was difficult to follow. If it had been in Latvian it
would have been impossible, but it was in English.
What, no incomprehensible local dialect (I vaguely recall the first
series)?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-30 12:08:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 07:16:34 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
*Except the new season of "Poldark". There may not be sharks off that
coast of England, but Poldark has jumped the shark.
I don't think we get Poldark in France. I've only seen one episode,
when we were in Riga. Without any context, or knowledge of the
characters, it was difficult to follow. If it had been in Latvian it
would have been impossible, but it was in English.
It was not a difficult show for me to follow. Quite the opposite. It
became quite predictable.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 21:20:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 16:44:31 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not that I've noticed. The main difference from most of the police
series that one sees in France is that the detectives ae physically
unattractive. That's probably realistic, but people who watch police
series are not usually looking for realism.
While I watch several UK/Australian/New Zealand shows on Acorn, I've
not seen any French shows. However, "The Tunnel" (PBS) had both
British and French detectives. I didn't notice any that were
particularly unattractive.
I think I was unclear, or you interpret it the opposite from what I
meant. In Brokenwood neither the main detective nor his sidekick are at
all nice-looking. In modern American TV, you can be sure that if there
is an authority figure like a trial judge or police chief she will be
female, or black, or both, but not necessarily young. On French TV they
don't care all much about the colour of their police chiefs, but they
do like them to be attractive women.
Tom Selleck, who has been portraying the Police Commissioner of New York
City for ten seasons and counting on *Bluebloods*, is neither female nor
black, nor handsome any more, and is not young. I don't watch it, but at
one time he was frequently interacting with Bebe Neuwirth, who I got the
impression was at least part of the time portraying the Mayor of New York.
HVS
2019-10-29 16:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by HVS
-snip-
Re: "camp"
Post by Jerry Friedman
Anyway, the meaning of exaggeration to the point of irony,
self-parody,
Post by Jerry Friedman
so-bad-it's-good is normal in the U.S.
And that's not a good description of the Brokenwood mysteries - it's
not high culture, but it's not remotely in the realm of "so bad it's
good". They're perfectly serviceable, competent pieces of light,
entertaining murder-mysteries.
Haven't watched it yet. As I recall Sontag's essay, she said that camp
humour consisted (in part) in treating serious things as if they were
trivial and trivial things seriously. Does that fit the series?
Not in my opinion - I'd group it with things like Midsomer Murders,
Father Brown, Death in Paradise, and many others. (It's lighter than
some, and more serious than others, but it's that genre of programs.)


Cheers, Harvey
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-28 22:28:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Monday, October 28, 2019 at 3:01:17 PM UTC-6, Ross wrote:
...
Post by Ross
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
...

By the way, the first citation in the OED is

1909 J. R. Ware /Passing Eng[lish of the] Victorian Era/ 61/2
Camp (Street), actions and gestures of exaggerated emphasis. Probably
from the French. Used chiefly by persons of exceptional want of
character. 'How very camp he is.'

Am I to take it that "persons of exceptional want of character"
would be understood as "homosexuals"?

The Merriam-Webster blog antedates that with a letter written in 1868
by one Frederick William Park, who as you'll see signed himself somewhat
differently. The letter was published in 1870 as the result of a
scandalous trial.

"My 'campish undertakings' are not at the present meeting with the
success that they deserve; whatever I do seems to get me into hot
water somewhere but, n'importe, what's the odds so long as you're
rappy?--Believe me, your affectionate sister-in-law, Fanny Winnifred
Park"

By the way, it has for "campish"

Savouring of the camp, in manners, etc.
1581 R. Mulcaster /Positions/ xiv. 67 Not for the soldiars saying..
bycause his authoritie is to campishe.
1868 B. Cracroft /Ess./ II. 290 He [sc. the Comte de Bussy]..was
of military tastes, not a little campish in his licence.

"Licentious" and "what soldiers in camp may turn to if the camp
followers didn't follow them" seem to provide a possible origin for
"camp" meaning "gay".
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-10-29 13:23:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Ross wrote: ...
OED: camp, adj. Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical;
effeminate or homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of
homosexuals.
...
By the way, the first citation in the OED is
1909 J. R. Ware /Passing Eng[lish of the] Victorian Era/ 61/2 Camp
(Street), actions and gestures of exaggerated emphasis. Probably from
the French. Used chiefly by persons of exceptional want of character.
'How very camp he is.'
Am I to take it that "persons of exceptional want of character" would
be understood as "homosexuals"?
The Merriam-Webster blog antedates that with a letter written in
1868 by one Frederick William Park, who as you'll see signed himself
somewhat differently. The letter was published in 1870 as the result
of a scandalous trial.
"My 'campish undertakings' are not at the present meeting with the
success that they deserve; whatever I do seems to get me into hot
water somewhere but, n'importe, what's the odds so long as you're
rappy?--Believe me, your affectionate sister-in-law, Fanny Winnifred
Park"
By the way, it has for "campish"
Savouring of the camp, in manners, etc. 1581 R. Mulcaster
/Positions/ xiv. 67 Not for the soldiars saying.. bycause his
authoritie is to campishe. 1868 B. Cracroft /Ess./ II. 290 He
[sc. the Comte de Bussy]..was of military tastes, not a little
campish in his licence.
"Licentious" and "what soldiers in camp may turn to if the camp
followers didn't follow them" seem to provide a possible origin for
"camp" meaning "gay".
In terms of humour, one meaning of "camper" in French is "to play", as
in a dramatic performance. The example in my dictionary is "Dans ce
film, Gabin campe une personne bourrue", (Gabin plays a surly person).

There is a certain element of play-acting in it, I suppose.

https://www.wordreference.com/fren/camper
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 18:43:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Ross
OED: camp, adj.
Ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical; effeminate or
homosexual; pertaining to or characteristic of homosexuals.
By the way, the first citation in the OED is
1909 J. R. Ware /Passing Eng[lish of the] Victorian Era/ 61/2
Camp (Street), actions and gestures of exaggerated emphasis. Probably
from the French. Used chiefly by persons of exceptional want of
character. 'How very camp he is.'
Am I to take it that "persons of exceptional want of character"
would be understood as "homosexuals"?
The Merriam-Webster blog antedates that with a letter written in 1868
by one Frederick William Park, who as you'll see signed himself somewhat
differently. The letter was published in 1870 as the result of a
scandalous trial.
"My 'campish undertakings' are not at the present meeting with the
success that they deserve; whatever I do seems to get me into hot
water somewhere but, n'importe, what's the odds so long as you're
rappy?--Believe me, your affectionate sister-in-law, Fanny Winnifred
Park"
Nice garden-path there: I took "present" to be an adjective, not a noun.
(We don't any more insert "the" into "at present.")
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-27 20:19:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /藢par蓹宋甘屔檔/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've never heard of the word, but would naturally pronounce it with second
syllable stress.
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the prefix
get stressed?
Exactly. I do know the word, and the stress is definitely on the third
syllable when used in the medical world.
And secondary stress on the first syllable.
Joseph C. Fineman
2019-10-28 00:46:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It looks like para- + -thion. Why would the weak syllable of the
prefix get stressed?
Exactly. I do know the word, and the stress is definitely on the third
syllable when used in the medical world.
OED & AHD both agree.
--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: For every person wishing to teach there are thirty not :||
||: wishing to be taught. :||
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-27 19:33:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I've only ever heard "parathion" and "malathion" with the accent on the
third syllable, for what that's worth. I haven't heard them much.
--
Jerry Friedman
Ross
2019-10-28 00:14:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
/Anders, Denmark
I haven't watched that series, and I'm not part of a subculture
where parathion is regularly mentioned, but it doesn't seem to
be a NZism. The NZ Oxford Dictionary (2005), which is supposed to
reflect local pronunciation, agrees with OED (Brit.and U.S.) and
M-W Online that the main stress is on -thi-.
But as others have pointed out, there are precedents for the second-
syllable stress in words like parabola, parameter, paralysis.
Quinn C
2019-10-28 04:06:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I haven't watched that series, and I'm not part of a subculture
where parathion is regularly mentioned,
I had to look it up. It was mentioned frequently in my youth, but
always under the German trade name "E605".
--
... man muss oft schon Wissenschaft infrage stellen bei den Wirt-
schaftsmenschen [...] das Denken wird haeufig blockiert von einem
ideologischen Ueberbau [...] Es ist halt in vielen Teilen eher
eine Religion als eine Wissenschaft. -- Heiner Flassbeck
Anders D. Nygaard
2019-10-28 16:15:48 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
We are currently re-viewing the delightfully camp New Zealand series
"the Brokenwood Mysteries", and came across an episode where
the murder weapon was parathion.
It was consistently pronounced with second-syllable stress, which
is different from my expectations, and from the pronunciation
given on https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/parathion /ˌparəˈθʌɪən/
Is this a NZ variation, or is something else going on?
I haven't watched that series, and I'm not part of a subculture
where parathion is regularly mentioned, but it doesn't seem to
be a NZism. The NZ Oxford Dictionary (2005), which is supposed to
reflect local pronunciation, agrees with OED (Brit.and U.S.) and
M-W Online that the main stress is on -thi-.
Thank you - that is as I thought.
Post by Ross
But as others have pointed out, there are precedents for the second-
syllable stress in words like parabola, parameter, paralysis.
So likely a parallel based on inadequate knowledge of the specific term.
A bit strange, as even the medical examiner has second-syllable stress;
but perhaps in her case it is unfamiliar due to her being Russian - she
may never have come across a spoken version while in NZ.
And the rest just follow her lead.

/Anders, Denmark.
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