Discussion:
Trump on Jeff Bezos' divorce
(too old to reply)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-12 07:30:37 UTC
Permalink
I wish him luck; it will be a beauty.
https://goo.gl/hBzv1b
"Beauty" seems unsuitable;
I'd say "doozy".
More suitable words anyone?
No. Are you planning to post each of Trump's pronouncements and ask for
English-usage comments? He is not usually noted for his superb command
of English style.
--
athel
Dingbat
2019-01-12 07:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Examples of doozy:
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy

One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"

I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-12 15:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-12 16:08:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that.
I don't think any British speaker would either. Maybe it's an obsolete
usage that has survived in Indian English.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-12 16:15:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:08:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that.
I don't think any British speaker would either. Maybe it's an obsolete
usage that has survived in Indian English.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
The relevant subentries in the OED are:

4.
a. A person. Originally derogatory: a young, foolish, or naive
person. In later use chiefly as a term of endearment: a dear; a
darling; a pet. Now rare.

1665....
1916 R. W. Service Rhymes Red Cross Man 43 Don't be oneasy,
pippin.

b. colloq. (orig. U.S.). An excellent, pleasing, or beautiful person
or thing. Cf. pip n.2 3.

1897 Chicago Record 17 Sept. 4/5 This sister was fair to look
upon. In fact, it was frequently remarked that she was a Pippin.
1920 P. G. Wodehouse Jill the Reckless xvi. 292 We shall..open
in Baltimore next Monday with practically a different piece. And
it's going to be a pippin, believe me, said our hero modestly.
1993 Sunday Times (Nexis) 21 Nov. (Features section) The Queen
opened the glittering new galleries and made a pippin of a speech.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Tony Cooper
2019-01-12 17:36:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:08:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that.
I don't think any British speaker would either. Maybe it's an obsolete
usage that has survived in Indian English.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
I don't know "pippin" in that context, but "She's a real pip!" might
be heard at the Senior Center.

There's a type of apple called a Pippin.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
J. J. Lodder
2019-01-12 20:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:08:17 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that.
I don't think any British speaker would either. Maybe it's an obsolete
usage that has survived in Indian English.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
I don't know "pippin" in that context, but "She's a real pip!" might
be heard at the Senior Center.
There's a type of apple called a Pippin.
More like a dozen types,

Jan
Paul Wolff
2019-01-12 17:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".

Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
excised:

trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]

A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.

2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.

H. L. Piozzi A heap of trumpery fit to furnish out the shop of
a…pawnbroker. D. W. Jerrold I'd put an end to free-masonry and
all such trumpery. Thackeray Cupboards crammed with the…relics
and…trumperies of a couple of generations. (b) C. Lucas
Reliques of saints, and such like holy trumpery.


B. attrib. or as adjective. Of little or no value; trifling,
rubbishy; showy but worthless; superficial; delusive. L16.

M. Arnold The accents of a trumpery rhetorician. B. W. Aldiss
The houses…had been given over to trumpery schools of English.

I think Matthew Arnold nailed it.
--
Paul
Tony Cooper
2019-01-12 18:54:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-12 20:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
--
Sam Plusnet
bill van
2019-01-12 23:29:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
His re-election campaign is underway. The courts won't let him run
against Muslims
this time around, so now it's Latino refugees' turn to be "the other".

bill
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-13 01:20:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
His re-election campaign is underway. The courts won't let him run
against Muslims
this time around, so now it's Latino refugees' turn to be "the other".
That may be the reason, but I doubt if (even) he would admit it.
I just wondered, if he had been asked this question, what was the excuse
for ignoring the whole matter until now.
--
Sam Plusnet
Quinn C
2019-01-13 03:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
I liked Trevor Noah's comparison for the idea of calling a national
emergency over the border wall: "That's like saying 'My house is on
fire, let's build a new fire station!'"
--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15
Janet
2019-01-13 13:20:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.

Janet
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-13 14:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Janet
Agreed.
In September 2016 he said:

We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
southern border wall."
From:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046

An "intangible" wall?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intangible

1 Unable to be touched; not having physical presence.
1.1 Difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and
abstract.
1.2 (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a
physical object and of a value not precisely measurable.

Perhaps 1.1 fits Trump's Wall.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mack A. Damia
2019-01-13 14:22:32 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:05:11 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Janet
Agreed.
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
southern border wall."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046
An "intangible" wall?
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intangible
1 Unable to be touched; not having physical presence.
1.1 Difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and
abstract.
1.2 (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a
physical object and of a value not precisely measurable.
Perhaps 1.1 fits Trump's Wall.
Genuine 1958 TV program about a guy named Trump who builds walls:

https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/a-show-from-the-1950-s-features-a-wall-in-texas-and-a-man-named-trump-1424481347976
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-13 15:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 14:05:11 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Janet
Agreed.
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
southern border wall."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046
An "intangible" wall?
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intangible
1 Unable to be touched; not having physical presence.
1.1 Difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and
abstract.
1.2 (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a
physical object and of a value not precisely measurable.
Perhaps 1.1 fits Trump's Wall.
https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/a-show-from-the-1950-s-features-a-wall-in-texas-and-a-man-named-trump-1424481347976
Better (more complete) version here, without TV journalists' chit-chat:

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2019/01/10/startling-prescience/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+freethoughtblogs%2Fpharyngula+%28FTB%3A+Pharyngula%29


https://tinyurl.com/ycbwrxrk
--
athel
CDB
2019-01-13 17:20:25 UTC
Permalink
On 1/13/2019 9:05 AM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:

[They will gladly pay me Tuesday]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico will
pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but they're
going to pay for it. And they're great people and great leaders but
they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will begin working
on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful southern border
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046
An "intangible" wall?
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intangible
1 Unable to be touched; not having physical presence. 1.1 Difficult
or impossible to define or understand; vague and abstract. 1.2 (of an
asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a physical
object and of a value not precisely measurable.
Perhaps 1.1 fits Trump's Wall.
I suppose he might have misread his teleprompter's "a tangible"; the
rest of the list seems to presuppose the indefinite article.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-13 17:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Janet
Agreed.
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
southern border wall."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046
An "intangible" wall?
That looks like a mistranscription of "a tangible." If he had said
"intangible" it would have been comedian fodder ever since.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/intangible
1 Unable to be touched; not having physical presence.
1.1 Difficult or impossible to define or understand; vague and
abstract.
1.2 (of an asset or benefit) not constituting or represented by a
physical object and of a value not precisely measurable.
Perhaps 1.1 fits Trump's Wall.
Quinn C
2019-01-14 19:07:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
southern border wall."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/08/trumps-evolving-reasons-border-wall-1088046
An "intangible" wall?
That looks like a mistranscription of "a tangible." If he had said
"intangible" it would have been comedian fodder ever since.
Possible, But he did indeed say. long before he became president: "When
you hit a wall, find ways to go under and over, but never give up."
--
Be afraid of the lame - They'll inherit your legs
Be afraid of the old - They'll inherit your souls
-- Regina Spektor, Après moi
J. J. Lodder
2019-01-14 08:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 12 Jan 2019 17:17:08 +0000, Paul Wolff
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. ?b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16?E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did nothing
about it for two years - despite having control of all aspects of the
government.
Has he explained why it was unimportant then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Janet
Agreed.
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-14 15:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
Something like 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 USans thinks "the Wall" is a good idea.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-14 22:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short while,
but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years. The people
who voted for him, however, will still be around, and will presumably
still be just as gullible as ever.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-15 02:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and Mexico
will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it yet, but
they're going to pay for it. And they're great people and great
leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day One, we will
begin working on intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short while,
but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years. The people
who voted for him, however, will still be around, and will presumably
still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
--
Sam Plusnet
CDB
2019-01-15 08:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and
Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it
yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're great people
and great leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day
One, we will begin working on intangible, physical, tall,
power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years.
The people who voted for him, however, will still be around, and
will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-15 13:17:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and
Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it
yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're great people
and great leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day
One, we will begin working on intangible, physical, tall,
power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years.
The people who voted for him, however, will still be around, and
will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
Katy Jennison
2019-01-15 14:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and
Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it
yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're great people
and great leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day
One, we will begin working on intangible, physical, tall,
power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years.
The people who voted for him, however, will still be around, and
will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
--
Katy Jennison
LFS
2019-01-15 14:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and
Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it
yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're great people
and great leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day
One, we will begin working on intangible, physical, tall,
power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years.
The people who voted for him, however, will still be around, and
will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
<giggle>
--
Laura (emulate St George for email)
Ken Blake
2019-01-15 14:43:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 14:02:51 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border, and
Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't know it
yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're great people
and great leaders but they're going to pay for the wall. On Day
One, we will begin working on intangible, physical, tall,
power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of years.
The people who voted for him, however, will still be around, and
will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
When I arrived at the hotel, fust i anpacked.
CDB
2019-01-15 16:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border,
and Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't
know it yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're
great people and great leaders but they're going to pay
for the wall. On Day One, we will begin working on
intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for
saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a
short while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a
couple of years. The people who voted for him, however, will
still be around, and will presumably still be just as
gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed
a Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
I suspicion you pack't the deck.
--
Can we do launch?
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 20:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border,
and Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't
know it yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're
great people and great leaders but they're going to pay
for the wall. On Day One, we will begin working on
intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a
short while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a
couple of years. The people who voted for him, however, will
still be around, and will presumably still be just as
gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed
a Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
I suspicion you pack't the deck.
Of the packet-boat?
--
Jerry Friedman
Katy Jennison
2019-01-15 21:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
We will build a great wall along the southern border,
and Mexico will pay for the wall," he said. "They don't
know it yet, but they're going to pay for it. And they're
great people and great leaders but they're going to pay
for the wall. On Day One, we will begin working on
intangible, physical, tall, power, beautiful
And don't forget the cheering crowds who aplauded him for saying it,
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a
short while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a
couple of years. The people who voted for him, however, will
still be around, and will presumably still be just as
gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed
a Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
I suspicion you pack't the deck.
Of the packet-boat?
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
--
Katy Jennison
David Kleinecke
2019-01-15 22:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed
a Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
I suspicion you pack't the deck.
Of the packet-boat?
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
That is the ugliest pseudo-tarot I have ever seen.
Quinn C
2019-01-15 23:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Katy Jennison
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
That is the ugliest pseudo-tarot I have ever seen.
What do you mean by "pseudo"?

To me, a tarot is just a specific set of cards, the one that you could
also play tarock with.
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
David Kleinecke
2019-01-16 03:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Katy Jennison
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
That is the ugliest pseudo-tarot I have ever seen.
What do you mean by "pseudo"?
To me, a tarot is just a specific set of cards, the one that you could
also play tarock with.
For one thing the deck has only 30 cards - not 78 like
a proper tarot. And it looks to me like they all are
trumps. The suits are so different I can't make them
match. Perhaps blackmagick.com explains all but their
website is even uglier than their cards and I am not
tempted to read on.
Katy Jennison
2019-01-16 06:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Katy Jennison
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
That is the ugliest pseudo-tarot I have ever seen.
What do you mean by "pseudo"?
To me, a tarot is just a specific set of cards, the one that you could
also play tarock with.
For one thing the deck has only 30 cards - not 78 like
a proper tarot. And it looks to me like they all are
trumps. The suits are so different I can't make them
match. Perhaps blackmagick.com explains all but their
website is even uglier than their cards and I am not
tempted to read on.
I agree (I only posted the link for the pun - double meaning of deck,
etc). Having looked at the site, it's apparently using 'tarot' in an
idiosyncratic sense of its own: no suits, but the cards don't seem to be
trumps, either.

The Humpty Dumpty school of magick, then. “When I use a word,” Humpty
Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it
to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether
you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,”
said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”

And look what happened to him.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 06:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Quinn C
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Katy Jennison
Or the Faustian Tarot?
https://www.blackmagick.com/infernal_tarot_part1.html
That is the ugliest pseudo-tarot I have ever seen.
What do you mean by "pseudo"?
To me, a tarot is just a specific set of cards, the one that you could
also play tarock with.
For one thing the deck has only 30 cards - not 78 like
a proper tarot. And it looks to me like they all are
trumps. The suits are so different I can't make them
match. Perhaps blackmagick.com explains all but their
website is even uglier than their cards and I am not
tempted to read on.
I agree (I only posted the link for the pun - double meaning of deck,
etc). Having looked at the site, it's apparently using 'tarot' in an
idiosyncratic sense of its own: no suits, but the cards don't seem to be
trumps, either.
The Humpty Dumpty school of magick, then. “When I use a word,” Humpty
Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it
to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether
you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,”
said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
And look what happened to him.
He always paid them extra.
Tak To
2019-01-16 19:20:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by David Kleinecke
[...]
For one thing the deck has only 30 cards - not 78 like
a proper tarot. And it looks to me like they all are
trumps. The suits are so different I can't make them
match. [...]
I too usually take tarot to mean a deck of 78 cards. However
the meaning used in the Wikip article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

is wider, and includes decks such as the 56-card Tarot of
Marseilles.
Post by Katy Jennison
I agree (I only posted the link for the pun - double meaning of deck,
etc). Having looked at the site, it's apparently using 'tarot' in an
idiosyncratic sense of its own: no suits, but the cards don't seem to be
trumps, either.
It is interesting that David saw it as "no suits, all trumps"
whereas you saw it as "no suits, no trumps".

I am more with David. I tend to see a card that does not belong
to any obvious suit a trump (belonging to the major arcana).

I am always interested in seeing new designs for the playing
cards and the tarots.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB
2019-01-16 05:49:37 UTC
Permalink
[goperos al paredón]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they
signed a Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase
"fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I think I know the travelling version of the phrase better, as in
'fustian packed'.
I suspicion you pack't the deck.
Of the packet-boat?
It was pact by mistake in the sig box.
CDB
2019-01-15 16:25:08 UTC
Permalink
[Trump leads the charge]
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by CDB
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
That's the big worry. Trump is screwing up his job for a short
while, but he'll probably be gone from office in a couple of
years. The people who voted for him, however, will still be
around, and will presumably still be just as gullible as ever.
However the GOP may not be (around that is), since they signed a
Foustian bargain with Trump.
Some day I will find an opportunity to use the phrase "fustian bargain".
As in "I bought some cloth, cheap."?
I am almost certain that you are familiar with the more figurative use
of the word.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-13 20:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.

If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.

When Mexico sees them coming, it might be willing to build the wall.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
bill van
2019-01-14 07:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Post by Peter Moylan
When Mexico sees them coming, it might be willing to build the wall.
More likely, Trump will announce that the U.S. government has saved so much
money on government employee salaries that it can now afford to pay for the
wall all by itself.

bill
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-14 13:47:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Millions? You sure about that?

<Migration Policy Institute, October 2018>

However, in recent years, migration patterns have changed
due to factors including the improving Mexican economy,
stepped-up U.S. immigration enforcement, and the long-term
drop in Mexico’s birth rates. More Mexican immigrants have
returned to Mexico than have migrated to the United States,
and apprehensions of Mexicans at the U.S.-Mexico border
are at a 40-year low. Mexico is also no longer the top origin
country among the most recent immigrants to the United
States. In addition, newer immigrants from Mexico are more
likely to be college graduates and have stronger English skills
than those who arrived in prior decades.

</MPI>

Part of the insanity of the project is precisely that it's a solution
to a problem that's not even a problem anymore.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-14 20:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
They need it as an election issue. Just as they never even tried to outlaw
abortion when they had the opportunity.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Millions? You sure about that?
<Migration Policy Institute, October 2018>
However, in recent years, migration patterns have changed
due to factors including the improving Mexican economy,
stepped-up U.S. immigration enforcement, and the long-term
drop in Mexico’s birth rates. More Mexican immigrants have
returned to Mexico than have migrated to the United States,
and apprehensions of Mexicans at the U.S.-Mexico border
are at a 40-year low. Mexico is also no longer the top origin
country among the most recent immigrants to the United
States. In addition, newer immigrants from Mexico are more
likely to be college graduates and have stronger English skills
than those who arrived in prior decades.
</MPI>
Part of the insanity of the project is precisely that it's a solution
to a problem that's not even a problem anymore.
It isn't Mexico that the "caravan" came from, but the "Northern Triangle"
of Central America. The immigrant flow between the US and Mexico is net
loss for US, gain for Mexico.

NPR interviewed some "migrants" in Tijuana who are happy to settle there --
nice town, plenty of jobs.
bill van
2019-01-15 01:11:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because>
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Millions? You sure about that?
<Migration Policy Institute, October 2018>
However, in recent years, migration patterns have changeddue to factors
including the improving Mexican economy,stepped-up U.S. immigration
enforcement, and the long-termdrop in Mexico’s birth rates. More
Mexican immigrants havereturned to Mexico than have migrated to the
United States,and apprehensions of Mexicans at the U.S.-Mexico
borderare at a 40-year low. Mexico is also no longer the top
origincountry among the most recent immigrants to the UnitedStates. In
addition, newer immigrants from Mexico are morelikely to be college
graduates and have stronger English skillsthan those who arrived in
prior decades.
</MPI>
Part of the insanity of the project is precisely that it's a solution
to a problem that's not even a problem anymore.
I didn't say anything about Mexico. I'm talking about mainly northward
migration by people from various
Central American countries south of Mexico. Millions of people. The
statistics are easy find.

https://www.thedialogue.org/analysis/recent-trends-in-central-american-migration/


bill
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 20:39:34 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by bill van
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because>
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Millions? You sure about that?
<Migration Policy Institute, October 2018>
However, in recent years, migration patterns have changeddue to factors
including the improving Mexican economy,stepped-up U.S. immigration
enforcement, and the long-termdrop in Mexico’s birth rates. More
Mexican immigrants havereturned to Mexico than have migrated to the
United States,and apprehensions of Mexicans at the U.S.-Mexico
borderare at a 40-year low. Mexico is also no longer the top
origincountry among the most recent immigrants to the UnitedStates. In
addition, newer immigrants from Mexico are morelikely to be college
graduates and have stronger English skillsthan those who arrived in
prior decades.
</MPI>
Part of the insanity of the project is precisely that it's a solution
to a problem that's not even a problem anymore.
I didn't say anything about Mexico. I'm talking about mainly northward
migration by people from various
Central American countries south of Mexico. Millions of people. The
statistics are easy find.
https://www.thedialogue.org/analysis/recent-trends-in-central-american-migration/
I'd say that "They [Americans] won't go south" includes "Americans
won't go to Mexico."
--
Jerry Friedman
bill van
2019-01-15 23:41:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because>>
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by bill van
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
Millions? You sure about that?
<Migration Policy Institute, October 2018>
However, in recent years, migration patterns have changeddue to
factors> > including the improving Mexican economy,stepped-up U.S.
immigration> > enforcement, and the long-termdrop in Mexico’s birth
rates. More> > Mexican immigrants havereturned to Mexico than have
migrated to the> > United States,and apprehensions of Mexicans at the
U.S.-Mexico> > borderare at a 40-year low. Mexico is also no longer the
top> > origincountry among the most recent immigrants to the
UnitedStates. In> > addition, newer immigrants from Mexico are
morelikely to be college> > graduates and have stronger English
skillsthan those who arrived in> > prior decades.
</MPI>
Part of the insanity of the project is precisely that it's a solution
to a problem that's not even a problem anymore.
I didn't say anything about Mexico. I'm talking about mainly northward>
migration by people from various
Central American countries south of Mexico. Millions of people. The>
statistics are easy find.
https://www.thedialogue.org/analysis/recent-trends-in-central-american-migration/
I'd say that "They [Americans] won't go south" includes "Americans
won't go to Mexico."
You're right, although that's not what I had in mind. I was thinking
that American refugees from Trump wouldn't migrate
toward the Central American countries that are so unsafe due to
corruption, gangs and climate change that
millions of people have been leaving them.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-14 15:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis
at the border.
It can't be too much of a crisis, since he and his party did
nothing about it for two years - despite having control of all
aspects of the government. Has he explained why it was unimportant
then, but so urgent now?
Hell, he never even explained how (or why) Mexico would ever pay for
his fantasy Wall.
Don't misunderestimate Trump. There is madness in his method.
If he makes the government shutdown last for a long time, the
inconvenience will grow with time, and a lot of people will be affected.
That could lead to a flood of US refugees trying to leave the country.
Nope. Nice thought, but if Americans are looking for a kinder, safer country,
most of them will go north into Canada. They won't go south because
that's where
conditions are such that millions of people don't want to live there any more.
That's a Trumpian confusion of Mexico with where the "caravan" actually came from.
Post by bill van
Post by Peter Moylan
When Mexico sees them coming, it might be willing to build the wall.
More likely, Trump will announce that the U.S. government has saved so much
money on government employee salaries that it can now afford to pay for the
wall all by itself.
Not salaries -- those will be granted retroactively -- but contract workers,
who will not be paid for the work they couldn't do. Some of which is rather
vital. Yesterday WCBS interviewed a security guard at a Federal building --
the Museum of the American Indian, a branch of the Smithsonian housed in the
old US Customs House. He's not a government employee, and he won't be paid for
the two weeks (so far) that he hasn't been at work.

Meanwhile a smirking republican congressman was congratulating the workers on
getting an indeterminately long paid vacation.
Peter Moylan
2019-01-13 00:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?

Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-13 10:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
You're forgetting the boiling oil dispensers and elite archers on sentry
duty!
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-13 11:55:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 02:58:38 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
You're forgetting the boiling oil dispensers and elite archers on sentry
duty!
I've been mentally comparing the Trump Wall with the former Berlin Wall.
Will there be a crossing point known as "Checkpoint Donny"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-13 18:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 02:58:38 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
You're forgetting the boiling oil dispensers and elite archers on sentry
duty!
I've been mentally comparing the Trump Wall with the former Berlin Wall.
Will there be a crossing point known as "Checkpoint Donny"?
I was thinking of one of those wooden palisades manned by the 7th
Cavalry. One trooper looks out over the desert scrub and turns to another

"I don't like it, it's too quiet out there."
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2019-01-13 20:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 02:58:38 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
You're forgetting the boiling oil dispensers and elite archers on sentry
duty!
I've been mentally comparing the Trump Wall with the former Berlin Wall.
Will there be a crossing point known as "Checkpoint Donny"?
Wall built of our sorrow
Some day you will end.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
occam
2019-01-13 13:57:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Bill Day
2019-01-14 23:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
--
remove nonsense for reply
Tak To
2019-01-15 17:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Day
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2019-01-15 18:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I genuinely think that if you don't think it's funny or pithy, it's
because of *your* ideological bent.

It's the opinion of many if not most experts in the matter that border
walls don't work well and aren't cost-effective.

There's an old Usenet saying - it may be older than Usenet, but it
often came up when I read discussions on moderation, filtering etc.:
There are no technical solutions for social problems.
--
The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable
-- Paul Broca
... who never questioned that men are more intelligent than women
Tak To
2019-01-15 21:32:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I genuinely think that if you don't think it's funny or pithy, it's
because of *your* ideological bent.
Not quite sure what "ideological bent" means here. Are you
saying that people find it funny or pithy because of *their*
"ideological bent"? (Which btw does not really answer my
question.)

Note that

(A) I take analogies seriously. In particular, if an analogy
is off the mark, then any attempt pf humor based on it will not
be not funny for me. (Cf an inept impressionist.)

(B) I also take expressing political opposition seriously,
and find humor rarely has the requisite precision to do the
job properly. In particular, I often find depicting certain
political figures as fools or clowns less than pithy.
Post by Quinn C
It's the opinion of many if not most experts in the matter that border
walls don't work well and aren't cost-effective.
Perhaps, but the reason that the wall is not likely to be
cost-effective is *not* because there is a ridiculously
simple way to circumvent it that is overlooked by the
(dumb!) supporters of the wall[1]. If the point is "Trump
is SO stupid HA HA HA" then the sticker pair is fine; but if
the point is about delivering a cogent opinion then it falls
short.

[1] YMMV
Post by Quinn C
There's an old Usenet saying - it may be older than Usenet, but it
There are no technical solutions for social problems.
Not sure what you are driving at here either.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Quinn C
2019-01-16 18:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I genuinely think that if you don't think it's funny or pithy, it's
because of *your* ideological bent.
Not quite sure what "ideological bent" means here. Are you
saying that people find it funny or pithy because of *their*
"ideological bent"? (Which btw does not really answer my
question.)
Quite possibly - some people may just laugh about it because it makes
fun of Trump, who they oppose ideologically, or because it dismisses
policies they oppose for ideological reasons (rather than the price tag
as such.)
Post by Tak To
Note that
(A) I take analogies seriously. In particular, if an analogy
is off the mark, then any attempt pf humor based on it will not
be not funny for me. (Cf an inept impressionist.)
(B) I also take expressing political opposition seriously,
and find humor rarely has the requisite precision to do the
job properly. In particular, I often find depicting certain
political figures as fools or clowns less than pithy.
I find highlighting the foolishness of political ideas very effective,
and humor helpful with that. But I realize the subject can easily get
lost in the search for effect. Also, focusing on people can distract.

I've heard that people of widely varying political leanings find the
news TV satire programs that are so popular in the US amusing, even
though most of them clearly lean one way. This might indicate that the
programs are focused so much on the humor that they don't get their
message across effectively.

If you were thinking of Trump, specifically, I have to say, though,
that there isn't a lot of "depicting" necessary. He is a fool and a
clown (and dishonest and unsavory) by widely - while of course not
universally - accepted societal conventions. If one has been educated
in a typical middle-class or intellectual environment, to name just
some relevant sections of society, one has to go to some lengths to
wrap ones head around why his form of political theater may actually be
clever sometimes.
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
It's the opinion of many if not most experts in the matter that border
walls don't work well and aren't cost-effective.
Perhaps, but the reason that the wall is not likely to be
cost-effective is *not* because there is a ridiculously
simple way to circumvent it that is overlooked by the
(dumb!) supporters of the wall[1]. If the point is "Trump
is SO stupid HA HA HA" then the sticker pair is fine;
Yes, but ignoring the opinion is totally fine also, in this case.
Post by Tak To
but if
the point is about delivering a cogent opinion then it falls
short.
Works for me, taking the ladders as a simple, graphic stand-in for
"ways to circumvent the wall".

I feel you're sometimes excruciatingly literal. That's so far from how
my mind usually works that I have to remind myself that you don't play
dumb. At least that's my impression, from the things you write, whereas
I believe some other people here sometimes do play dumb when it fits
their purposes.
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
There's an old Usenet saying - it may be older than Usenet, but it
There are no technical solutions for social problems.
Not sure what you are driving at here either.
It's not complex at all: Immigration is a social issue, a wall is a
technical solution (or attempt at.) It won't work. Not on its own, not
even as centerpiece.
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-16 20:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I genuinely think that if you don't think it's funny or pithy, it's
because of *your* ideological bent.
Not quite sure what "ideological bent" means here. Are you
saying that people find it funny or pithy because of *their*
"ideological bent"? (Which btw does not really answer my
question.)
Quite possibly - some people may just laugh about it because it makes
fun of Trump, who they oppose ideologically, or because it dismisses
policies they oppose for ideological reasons (rather than the price tag
as such.)
Post by Tak To
Note that
(A) I take analogies seriously. In particular, if an analogy
is off the mark, then any attempt pf humor based on it will not
be not funny for me. (Cf an inept impressionist.)
(B) I also take expressing political opposition seriously,
and find humor rarely has the requisite precision to do the
job properly. In particular, I often find depicting certain
political figures as fools or clowns less than pithy.
I find highlighting the foolishness of political ideas very effective,
and humor helpful with that. But I realize the subject can easily get
lost in the search for effect. Also, focusing on people can distract.
I've heard that people of widely varying political leanings find the
news TV satire programs that are so popular in the US amusing, even
though most of them clearly lean one way. This might indicate that the
programs are focused so much on the humor that they don't get their
message across effectively.
After SNL, Norm McDonald tried to make a career of being a rightwing
ranting comedian. He hasn't found much success. Similarly P. J. O'Rourke,
who is on *Wait Wait* a lot less than he used to be. In the "Bluff the
Listener" game, where one of the three panelists recounted an implausible
story from the week's feature news and the other two invent stories on
the same theme, you could almost always tell when P.J. was making up a
story because it was invariably about some supposedly ridiculous behavior
in some third-world country. (The contestant has to pick which was the
real story. It's by far the most difficult of the three listener-partici-
pation games they have each week.)
Post by Quinn C
If you were thinking of Trump, specifically, I have to say, though,
that there isn't a lot of "depicting" necessary. He is a fool and a
clown (and dishonest and unsavory) by widely - while of course not
universally - accepted societal conventions. If one has been educated
in a typical middle-class or intellectual environment, to name just
some relevant sections of society, one has to go to some lengths to
wrap ones head around why his form of political theater may actually be
clever sometimes.
Yesterday's gem: There's no staff at the White House, but he didn't
postpone the visit by the Clemson University football team, which won
some championship or other. They couldn't have a proper nutritious
lunch for them, so Trump ordered -- and paid for himself, he claimed;
I'd like to see the receipts on that -- mountains of fast food from,
apparently, the big three burger chains. He announced it was everyone's
favorite food.

Now I haven't known too many athletes, but I suspect that championship
football teams' favorite lunch isn't Quarter-Pounders and Whoppers and
"hundreds of French fries."
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
It's the opinion of many if not most experts in the matter that border
walls don't work well and aren't cost-effective.
Perhaps, but the reason that the wall is not likely to be
cost-effective is *not* because there is a ridiculously
simple way to circumvent it that is overlooked by the
(dumb!) supporters of the wall[1]. If the point is "Trump
is SO stupid HA HA HA" then the sticker pair is fine;
Yes, but ignoring the opinion is totally fine also, in this case.
Post by Tak To
but if
the point is about delivering a cogent opinion then it falls
short.
Works for me, taking the ladders as a simple, graphic stand-in for
"ways to circumvent the wall".
I feel you're sometimes excruciatingly literal. That's so far from how
my mind usually works that I have to remind myself that you don't play
dumb. At least that's my impression, from the things you write, whereas
I believe some other people here sometimes do play dumb when it fits
their purposes.
Trump's concern is "criminals" who are coming to murder his base and join
MS-13. (MS-13 is an American gang that was exported to Central America
when some of its members were deported.) Never mind that the proportion
of "criminals" among "illegal aliens" is considerably smaller than among
"legal" residents.

The concern of the security folk is drugs and terrorism. No "illegal
aliens" transport drugs from Central America; the drugs come through
the legal crossing-points concealed in vehicles or in airplane luggage.
There may also still be extensive tunnels from deep in Mexico to deep US.
Not one terrorist has ever come across the southern border, but apparently
a number have come across the northern border. Mostly they come across
the ocean.

Most "illegal aliens" entered legitimately and overstayed their visas.
The Democrats want to beef up the departments that should be keeping
track of visa-overstayers and that should be hearing the cases of asylum-
seekers.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
There's an old Usenet saying - it may be older than Usenet, but it
There are no technical solutions for social problems.
Not sure what you are driving at here either.
It's not complex at all: Immigration is a social issue, a wall is a
technical solution (or attempt at.) It won't work. Not on its own, not
even as centerpiece.
RHDraney
2019-01-16 21:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
After SNL, Norm McDonald tried to make a career of being a rightwing
ranting comedian. He hasn't found much success. Similarly P. J. O'Rourke,
who is on *Wait Wait* a lot less than he used to be. In the "Bluff the
Listener" game, where one of the three panelists recounted an implausible
story from the week's feature news and the other two invent stories on
the same theme, you could almost always tell when P.J. was making up a
story because it was invariably about some supposedly ridiculous behavior
in some third-world country. (The contestant has to pick which was the
real story. It's by far the most difficult of the three listener-partici-
pation games they have each week.)
A tip if you ever get a chance to play the game: don't believe anything
Roxanne Roberts says...she's famous for making the most outrageous
fabrications sound entirely plausible....r

David Kleinecke
2019-01-15 20:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.

It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 21:28:28 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
--
Jerry Friedman
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-15 21:51:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 21:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Yep. Am I overlooking something?
--
Jerry Friedman
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-15 22:10:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Yep. Am I overlooking something?
--
Just ....



... or sit on top of the wall, pull up the ladder and gently let
it down the other side. If you do this with a friend or two it
won't even tax your muscles!
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-15 23:56:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Yep. Am I overlooking something?
--
Just ....
http://youtu.be/vU8dCYocuyI
I was thinking of letting yourself down a rope, which a lot of people
won't or can't do, especially if they're traveling with children.

Maybe it would be better to tie a 60-some-foot rope very securely
around yourself and once you're at the top, have your friends or well-
remunerated /polleros/ (the only word I'd known was /coyote/) pay it
out over the top rung of the ladder from the "Mexican" side. I put
"Mexican" in quotation marks because the wall would be a bit back
from the border, allowing for motion sensors, Border Patrol agents,
and such on both sides.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
... or sit on top of the wall, pull up the ladder and gently let
it down the other side. If you do this with a friend or two it
won't even tax your muscles!
Here's the 30-foot-tall barrier recently finished in Calexico, Cal.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-trump-border-barrier-20181011-story.html

https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/human-smuggling-crossing-border-illegally-methods/559784001/

I'd like to see you accomplish that. You'd want a very light ladder,
maybe like the homemade model at the end of this story.

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-trump-border-barrier-20181011-story.html

The /pollero/ in that story suggests jumping and says you have to be
"athletic" to get over the wall without injury.

A thirty-foot wall certainly won't stop everybody, but I think it would
stop a lot of people. It's not like "739 pesos--easy as pie!" (I still
don't think the wall is a good idea.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-01-16 01:04:39 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 14:10:25 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Yep. Am I overlooking something?
--
Just ....
http://youtu.be/vU8dCYocuyI
... or sit on top of the wall, pull up the ladder and gently let
it down the other side. If you do this with a friend or two it
won't even tax your muscles!
Or you take a 30 ft length of rope up with you and rappel down.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-16 21:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 14:10:25 -0800 (PST), Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Seriously?
Yep. Am I overlooking something?
--
Just ....
http://youtu.be/vU8dCYocuyI
... or sit on top of the wall, pull up the ladder and gently let
it down the other side. If you do this with a friend or two it
won't even tax your muscles!
Or you take a 30 ft length of rope up with you and rappel down.
60 ft of rope, and stick a pulley wheel on top of the wall.
As the first person descends on the US side, they pull the second person
up the Mexican side.
Energy saving and ecologically sound (which would upset the current
administration even more).
--
Sam Plusnet
bill van
2019-01-15 23:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.

Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need 36.5 feet
minimum.

bill
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 05:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.

Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
--
Jerry Friedman
bill van
2019-01-16 06:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of
the wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that
you're not carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and
you're not accompanying a child.
I've never had the crucial source of motivation: living in a much more
dangerous and poorer country.
And that being so, now that I'm over 70 I can't see leaving a
relatively comfortable existence and
heading out on a dangerous adverture that might kill me. I'm no Frodo.

bill
Janet
2019-01-16 09:19:35 UTC
Permalink
In article <q1meqt$7na$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@yahoo.com
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side,
Back when I was a keen rock climber, yes. I could easily abseil 30 ft.

Janet.
Katy Jennison
2019-01-16 10:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side,
Back when I was a keen rock climber, yes. I could easily abseil 30 ft.
Back when I used to climb up to fix slates on our roof, I'd have had no
trouble with the ladder, and probably wouldn't now, but the rope would
be a new experience.
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2019-01-16 11:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your
life when you would have been, willing and able to climb a
thirty-foot wall with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on
the other side, in order to get into a much safer and richer country?
Particularly think about every motion in getting over the top. Don't
assume the top of the wall provides any place to sit or stand. You
may assume that you're not carrying more than a water bottle or two
in a backpack and you're not accompanying a child.
I'd probably be terrified (I'm bad enough on small ladders), but I'd
still do it if it was a question of survival.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-16 11:48:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 22:18:20 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
Plan B: If there is a group of people crossing the wall have two
ladders, one each side.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-16 12:24:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 22:18:20 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
Plan B: If there is a group of people crossing the wall have two
ladders, one each side.
Plan A, I would have thought, if you have a relative or a friend who is
already on the other side.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 15:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 22:18:20 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
Plan B: If there is a group of people crossing the wall have two
ladders, one each side.
(Very British--I'd say "one on each side".)

Yes, that would help, though I'd still have a difficult movement
crossing from one ladder to the other. But I'm somewhat acrophobic.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Plan A, I would have thought, if you have a relative or a friend who is
already on the other side.
Or a partner of the /pollero/ or /coyote/ who you paid thousands of
dollars to help you across. However, this plan does increase the chance
of being spotted.

But my point is that this is not a matter of a 739-peso ladder and Beto
es tu tío. Crossing is already difficult and expensive, and a wall
would make it more so. That's why I said that one reason the bumper
sticker is too funny and frivolous to take seriously is the difficulty
of getting down the other side.
--
Jerry Friedman
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-16 12:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
Given the extraordinary risks taken by those attempting to cross
the Berlin Wall, this is, by comparison, a piece of cake. If the
motivation is strong enough people will find a way or die trying.
And let's not forget that there are a myriad ways of simply going
around a wall that has two ends!
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 15:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be  because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
30-minus would work. It just has to get your feet to or near the ground.
Post by bill van
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need
36.5 feet minimum.
Or have someone trustworthy (possibly the owner of the ladder) helping
you on the south side.
Okay, a.u.e.-ers, would you be now, or was there some time in your life
when you would have been, willing and able to climb a thirty-foot wall
with a ladder and let yourself down with a rope on the other side, in
order to get into a much safer and richer country? Particularly think
about every motion in getting over the top. Don't assume the top of the
wall provides any place to sit or stand. You may assume that you're not
carrying more than a water bottle or two in a backpack and you're not
accompanying a child.
Given the extraordinary risks taken by those attempting to cross
the Berlin Wall, this is, by comparison, a piece of cake. If the
motivation is strong enough people will find a way or die trying.
Some people. But the greater the risk, the fewer people will try it. I
didn't say that no one would try or no one would succeed.
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
And let's not forget that there are a myriad ways of simply going
around a wall that has two ends!
One can also tunnel under it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2019-01-16 08:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
Perhaps they can sell a 30-plus-foot length of rope with each ladder.
Also, you'll want ladders more than two feet taller than the wall in order
to set them up at a safe angle. The rule of thumb, I gather, is one foot
distance from the wall for every four feet in height, so you'll need 36.5 feet
minimum.
bill
If the new section is only 2 miles long, why not just walk to the end.

Janet.
Janet
2019-01-16 08:02:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
BOGOF. Or share with a friend.

Janet
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-16 18:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
BOGOF. Or share with a friend.
Buy one, get one free? (AmE "BOGO", at least around here.) Meaning
that for only the price of scaling one side of the wall, you get to
descend the other side?
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2019-01-16 18:58:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 10:20:05 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Janet
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
BOGOF. Or share with a friend.
Buy one, get one free? (AmE "BOGO", at least around here.)
Same around here. I still remember the first time I saw "BOGO" on a
sign on a supermarket. I couldn't figure out what the Bogos they were
selling were.
Paul Wolff
2019-01-16 19:52:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 10:20:05 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Janet
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
BOGOF. Or share with a friend.
Buy one, get one free? (AmE "BOGO", at least around here.)
Same around here. I still remember the first time I saw "BOGO" on a
sign on a supermarket. I couldn't figure out what the Bogos they were
selling were.
I always see BOGOF as "Bog off", which my feeble brain interprets as a
euphemism for a phrase with one more unspeakable syllable.

BOGO I'd see as nostalgia for POGO and the swamps of Okefenokee. A girl
lent me her Pogo book once. I still have a small, secret and
dishonourable wish that I might have forgotten ever to return it to her.
But return it I did.
--
Paul
occam
2019-01-16 09:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
I'd call it witty.
Cute, for me.
Post by David Kleinecke
It's too obvious to be funny and too frivolous to be taken
seriously.
Particularly because it doesn't address how to get down on the other
side.
To imagine that, you need a leap of faith.
CDB
2019-01-16 12:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Bill Day
Post by occam
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
And, our President is making trumped-up claims about the crisis at the
border.
On that topic, has anyone yet told Trump that you can buy ladders in Mexico?
Or should I just keep my mouth shut?
No, just set up a company that manufactures n+1 foot ladders (where n=
height of wall.)
Photo posted yesterday: car with 2 bumper stickers- one says "30 ft
Border Wall $25 billion... other says "32 ft, ladders, 739 Pesos."
I wonder how many people genuinely think that this sticker set
is funny or pithy, and how many think it must be because it is
PC.
More's the pithy.
Dingbat
2019-01-12 21:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
I say: At first glance, trumpery looked trumped up
but it is an old word listed in a dictionary!
Post by Paul Wolff
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A French prophet predicted Trump! Must be Nostradamus.
Post by Paul Wolff
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
H. L. Piozzi A heap of trumpery fit to furnish out the shop of
a…pawnbroker. D. W. Jerrold I'd put an end to free-masonry and
all such trumpery. Thackeray Cupboards crammed with the…relics
and…trumperies of a couple of generations. (b) C. Lucas
Reliques of saints, and such like holy trumpery.
B. attrib. or as adjective. Of little or no value; trifling,
rubbishy; showy but worthless; superficial; delusive. L16.
M. Arnold The accents of a trumpery rhetorician. B. W. Aldiss
The houses…had been given over to trumpery schools of English.
I think Matthew Arnold nailed it.
--
Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-12 22:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
There's a good and long-established English word that doesn't need
"Trumpism"; I mean "Trumpery".
Trump engages in trumpery, but that's not the meaning of Trumpism.

There were also, e.g., Bushisms (both) and Quaylisms.
Post by Paul Wolff
Here's its entry in the SOED, with just a little non-ASCII material
trumpery noun & adjective. LME.
[ORIGIN Old French & Modern French tromperie, from tromper
deceive, of unkn. origin: see -ery.]
A. noun.
1 Deceit, fraud, trickery; an instance of this. Long rare or
obsolete. LME.
2 A worthless, useless or trifling article; collect. sing. or
(rare) in pl., worthless stuff, rubbish, nonsense. LME. †b
collect. sing. & in pl. Religious practices, ceremonies, etc.,
regarded as superficial trappings or superstitious nonsense.
derog. M16–E19. c Showy clothing; worthless finery. E17. d
Weeds; garden refuse. obsolete exc. dial. M17. e A worthless
person, esp. a woman. obsolete exc. dial. M18.
H. L. Piozzi A heap of trumpery fit to furnish out the shop of
a…pawnbroker. D. W. Jerrold I'd put an end to free-masonry and
all such trumpery. Thackeray Cupboards crammed with the…relics
and…trumperies of a couple of generations. (b) C. Lucas
Reliques of saints, and such like holy trumpery.
B. attrib. or as adjective. Of little or no value; trifling,
rubbishy; showy but worthless; superficial; delusive. L16.
M. Arnold The accents of a trumpery rhetorician. B. W. Aldiss
The houses…had been given over to trumpery schools of English.
I think Matthew Arnold nailed it.
occam
2019-01-13 14:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Trump engages in trumpery, but that's not the meaning of Trumpism.
There were also, e.g., Bushisms (both) and Quaylisms.
You are forgetting 'Haigerisms' from the period of Alexander Haig. He
was the quintessential master of vagaries of Nixon's administration.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-13 17:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Trump engages in trumpery, but that's not the meaning of Trumpism.
There were also, e.g., Bushisms (both) and Quaylisms.
You are forgetting 'Haigerisms' from the period of Alexander Haig. He
was the quintessential master of vagaries of Nixon's administration.
?? Where did the -er- come from?

No, Haig didn't have nearly the public profile of the presidents.

What did he have to do with Nixon? He was the one who said, after Reagan
was shot, "I'm in charge here!" and that was about the last we heard of him.
Snidely
2019-01-15 07:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Trump engages in trumpery, but that's not the meaning of Trumpism.
There were also, e.g., Bushisms (both) and Quaylisms.
You are forgetting 'Haigerisms' from the period of Alexander Haig. He
was the quintessential master of vagaries of Nixon's administration.
?? Where did the -er- come from?
No, Haig didn't have nearly the public profile of the presidents.
What did he have to do with Nixon?
Um, Chief of Staff after Haldeman, and involved in persuading Nixon to
resign. (WP bio, of course)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
He was the one who said, after Reagan
was shot, "I'm in charge here!" and that was about the last we heard of him.
WP says, "I'm in control here", and mentions his claims that he wasn't
asserting succession so much as being the functional contact for
things.

Of course, he was still around during the Falklands War (the next year)
and sought to broker peace, but then he resigned a little bit after.
He tried to get the Republican nomination for President in 1988, and
was more successfully involved in /World Business Review/,

/dps
--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-15 12:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Trump engages in trumpery, but that's not the meaning of Trumpism.
There were also, e.g., Bushisms (both) and Quaylisms.
You are forgetting 'Haigerisms' from the period of Alexander Haig. He
was the quintessential master of vagaries of Nixon's administration.
?? Where did the -er- come from?
No, Haig didn't have nearly the public profile of the presidents.
What did he have to do with Nixon?
Um, Chief of Staff after Haldeman, and involved in persuading Nixon to
resign. (WP bio, of course)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
He was the one who said, after Reagan
was shot, "I'm in charge here!" and that was about the last we heard of him.
WP says, "I'm in control here", and mentions his claims that he wasn't
asserting succession so much as being the functional contact for
things.
Yes. My feeling at the time was that his statement was very much in line
with his military training and experience.

If a commander at any level, corporal/whatever up to general, becames
unable to command through incapacitation or death the most senior person
immediately available must immediately take over command responsibility.
That will typically be a more junior person in the group being
commanded. A replacement commander may be assigned but until that
happens the more junior person is Totally Officially in command of the
group.

This is a vital part of military organisation. It means that a group
cannot be put out of action simply by killing/incapacitating/capturing
its commander.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-15 15:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Haig didn't have nearly the public profile of the presidents.
What did he have to do with Nixon?
Um, Chief of Staff after Haldeman, and involved in persuading Nixon to
resign. (WP bio, of course)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
He was the one who said, after Reagan
was shot, "I'm in charge here!" and that was about the last we heard of him.
WP says, "I'm in control here", and mentions his claims that he wasn't
asserting succession so much as being the functional contact for
things.
Yes. My feeling at the time was that his statement was very much in line
with his military training and experience.
If a commander at any level, corporal/whatever up to general, becames
unable to command through incapacitation or death the most senior person
immediately available must immediately take over command responsibility.
That will typically be a more junior person in the group being
commanded. A replacement commander may be assigned but until that
happens the more junior person is Totally Officially in command of the
group.
This is a vital part of military organisation. It means that a group
cannot be put out of action simply by killing/incapacitating/capturing
its commander.
However, the Executive Branch is NOT a military organization, and Haig,
whether at the time he was still Chief of Staff or had been elevated to
Secretary of State already, was NOT "in control." In case of the incapacity
of the President, the Vice President is "in control," and the Secretary of
State is three people below that (Speaker, President pro tem, then the
Cabinet in order of creation of their department; but we've had a number
of foreign-born Secys of State, so Kissinger and Brzezinski and Albright
weren't in the line of succession at all).

With the retirement of Orrin Hatch, I don't know who the President pro tem
of the Senate is -- it may be Chuck Grassley. Pat Leahy, the senior senator
from Vermont (senior to Bernie Sanders) is the longest-serving senator, but
apparently the Ppt is from the majority party, so he'll have to wait a
couple of years to be #3.

Yup, my guess is correct. It's Grassley.
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-15 21:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Yes. My feeling at the time was that his statement was very much in line
with his military training and experience.
If a commander at any level, corporal/whatever up to general, becames
unable to command through incapacitation or death the most senior person
immediately available must immediately take over command responsibility.
That will typically be a more junior person in the group being
commanded. A replacement commander may be assigned but until that
happens the more junior person is Totally Officially in command of the
group.
This is a vital part of military organisation. It means that a group
cannot be put out of action simply by killing/incapacitating/capturing
its commander.
Quibble: I believe that the US military forces have a concept "Officer
of the Line", whilst other officers may be specialists e.g. attorneys,
chaplains, civil engineers, health services professionals, and logistics
and financial management specialists.
In a case like that described above, a junior officer of the line would
give orders to a senior officer not of the line - though the orders
would be phrased as requests with all due courtesy.
--
Sam Plusnet
Rich Ulrich
2019-01-16 21:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Yes. My feeling at the time was that his statement was very much in line
with his military training and experience.
If a commander at any level, corporal/whatever up to general, becames
unable to command through incapacitation or death the most senior person
immediately available must immediately take over command responsibility.
That will typically be a more junior person in the group being
commanded. A replacement commander may be assigned but until that
happens the more junior person is Totally Officially in command of the
group.
This is a vital part of military organisation. It means that a group
cannot be put out of action simply by killing/incapacitating/capturing
its commander.
Quibble: I believe that the US military forces have a concept "Officer
of the Line", whilst other officers may be specialists e.g. attorneys,
chaplains, civil engineers, health services professionals, and logistics
and financial management specialists.
"Officer of the line".
I learned about that concept from "Star Trek, TNG". Before the series
ended, each of the professional specialists (Troi and Dr. Crusher,
more?) were put through extra training and testing, to qualify as
Bridge Officers. There was a plot-arc across a few shows where Troi
failed a test more than once.
Post by Sam Plusnet
In a case like that described above, a junior officer of the line would
give orders to a senior officer not of the line - though the orders
would be phrased as requests with all due courtesy.
--
Rich Ulrich
Dingbat
2019-01-12 21:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Dingbat
https://context.reverso.net/translation/english-spanish/a+doozy
One of the examples is "She must have been a doozy"
I'd prefer to say "She must have been a pippin."
No American would say that. Are you claiming that's a Trumpism?
No, that I prefer the term but am usually unable to use it for fear of
not being understood. My late landlady could understand it. She was
from Bob Dylan's hometown of Duluth, MN, a few years older than him
and an avid reader. She could also understand my use of "plumb loco".
Dingbat
2019-01-12 08:07:53 UTC
Permalink
I'd say "doozy".
More suitable words anyone?
Athel wrote:
No. Are you planning to post each of Trump's pronouncements and ask for
English-usage comments? He is not
usually noted for his superb command
of English style.

I'm looking for comments on my usage:
doozy.
Jerry Friedman
2019-01-12 16:10:58 UTC
Permalink
I'd say "doozy".
More suitable words anyone?
No. Are you planning to post each of Trump's pronouncements and ask for
English-usage comments? He is not
usually noted for his superb command
of English style.
doozy.
Good American English. Trump's version was also fine.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-01-12 13:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Trump on Jeff Bezos' divorce: I wish him luck; it will be a
beauty. https://goo.gl/hBzv1b
"Beauty" seems unsuitable; I'd say "doozy".
More suitable words anyone?
No. Are you planning to post each of Trump's pronouncements and ask
for English-usage comments? He is not usually noted for his superb
command of English style.
Itebay ouryay onguetay.
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