Discussion:
Definition of "great writer"
Add Reply
Paul
2019-10-28 13:37:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."

This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.

It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."

Paul
Tony Cooper
2019-10-28 13:53:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
I think you are being too strict in your understanding of the usage.
The wording of "considered to be" means "some think he is" and
"amongst" is an unidentified pool that can be very large.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-10-28 16:39:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
I think you are being too strict in your understanding of the usage.
The wording of "considered to be" means "some think he is" and
"amongst" is an unidentified pool that can be very large.
I think the default interpretation of "considered to be" is "widely",
and if it's only "some" who think so, it needs to be said: "is
considered by some to be ..."

I had immediate doubts because the name didn't ring a bell. Checking
Wikipedia, I find that the German page is extremely short. I might have
overlooked him because he's not popular in Germany.
--
Or maybe the German Wikipedia page is just minimalist, in honor of the
subject?
Stefan Ram
2019-10-31 11:50:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
I think you are being too strict in your understanding of the usage.
The wording of "considered to be" means "some think he is" and
"amongst" is an unidentified pool that can be very large.
"Considered to be amongst America's greatest writers." is
advertising lingo, not required in an encyclopedia.

That being said,
a great man literally stands out from the crowd due to his
height. Thus, a "great writer" is a /well-known/ writer -
which does not necessarily says something about the quality
of his writing. (Whatever "quality of writing" might be!)
David Kleinecke
2019-10-28 20:42:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.

If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Paul
2019-10-29 11:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
writers in that category. They would include in no particular order:
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...

He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-writing
classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.

Paul
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-29 12:06:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
I've heard of all of them. Before this thread I hadn't heard of Raymond Carver.
Post by Paul
He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-writing
classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.
Paul
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-29 18:38:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Does your local library subscribe to Library of America volumes?
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
Post by Paul
He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-
writing classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.
David Kleinecke
2019-10-29 18:57:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Does your local library subscribe to Library of America volumes?
I don't know. Since I stopped driving and started walking with a
cane I don't get there very often. It looks like an excellent
small city library with a modern building so I imagine it has
that Library. Not that I'ld look there for reading material.

My idea of a great modern "American" writer is Pyncheon.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
Post by Paul
He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-
writing classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.
I'm not sure Berkeley had creative writing classes in my day
Paul
2019-10-30 00:13:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.

Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 13:19:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?

At least you didn't say Updike, who in quantity surpasses the others.

Or, drifting a bit, Roald Dahl. After going through his entire library
of children's books* (after seeing the musical *Matilda*), I tried his
collected stories -- they all turn out to be nothing but sex-obsessed,
like early David Lodge.

As Charles Laughton says at the end of *The Private Life of Henry VIII*,
"The last of them was the best of them."
Paul
2019-10-30 14:23:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?
I think so. I'm sure her essays are valuable, and perhaps no less
valuable than the writings of the others. I've read some of her work.
I'm too ignorant to judge these things.
I think "among America's greatest writers" was a strange tag for Carver,
and many on this thread agree with me.
It is absolutely plausible that me suggesting that Sontag was a great writer
was also off-the-mark.

Paul
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 14:46:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?
I think so. I'm sure her essays are valuable, and perhaps no less
valuable than the writings of the others. I've read some of her work.
I'm too ignorant to judge these things.
I think "among America's greatest writers" was a strange tag for Carver,
and many on this thread agree with me.
It is absolutely plausible that me suggesting that Sontag was a great writer
was also off-the-mark.
Also there's a difference between "great writer" and "famous writer".
--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2019-10-30 16:36:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?
At least you didn't say Updike, who in quantity surpasses the others.
Or, drifting a bit, Roald Dahl. After going through his entire library
of children's books* (after seeing the musical *Matilda*), I tried his
collected stories -- they all turn out to be nothing but sex-obsessed,
like early David Lodge.
Dahl was British not American.

Janet
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 17:55:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?
At least you didn't say Updike, who in quantity surpasses the others.
Or, drifting a bit, Roald Dahl. After going through his entire library
of children's books* (after seeing the musical *Matilda*), I tried his
collected stories -- they all turn out to be nothing but sex-obsessed,
like early David Lodge.
Dahl was British not American.
Hence "drifting a bit." Even Tony Cooper could understand what that meant.

John McPhee, David Quammen, and Nicholson Baker are great writers, but not
of fiction, so I would not put them in such a list, either.

Would you allow Oliver Sacks (another in that category) to count as
American?
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-02 20:28:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
Sontag????? Can you name one short story, or even novel, by her?
...
The short story I can name (and have read) is "The way we live now."
I read it years ago, and I was able to name it without googling.
I googled it as a check though, to avoid posting an error.
And that puts her in a class with Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Salinger,
and Carver?
At least you didn't say Updike, who in quantity surpasses the others.
Or, drifting a bit, Roald Dahl. After going through his entire library
of children's books* (after seeing the musical *Matilda*), I tried his
collected stories -- they all turn out to be nothing but sex-obsessed,
like early David Lodge.
You can't have read much of it,

Jan
Spains Harden
2019-10-30 13:16:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 13:19:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
You need to ask your mother to explain to you what "include" means.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2019-10-30 14:25:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.

That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".

Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 17:52:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which,
Interesting -- we say "Speaking of which."
Post by Peter Moylan
I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
*The Bob Newhart Show* had, for many years, as its opening montage Dr.
Bob (he was a psycholgist with a downtown office) riding the "L" in
the wrong direction to reach his home on the North Side lakefront.

And there are a lot more Chicagoans than Newcastellians!
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 03:42:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which,
Interesting -- we say "Speaking of which."
Post by Peter Moylan
I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
*The Bob Newhart Show* had, for many years, as its opening montage Dr.
Bob (he was a psycholgist with a downtown office) riding the "L" in
the wrong direction to reach his home on the North Side lakefront.
And there are a lot more Chicagoans than Newcastellians!
And of course we all remember how "The Graduate" got to Berkeley by
driving on the Bay Bridge in the wrong direction.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 07:01:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which,
Interesting -- we say "Speaking of which."
Post by Peter Moylan
I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
*The Bob Newhart Show* had, for many years, as its opening montage Dr.
Bob (he was a psycholgist with a downtown office) riding the "L" in
the wrong direction to reach his home on the North Side lakefront.
And there are a lot more Chicagoans than Newcastellians!
And that is important why?
Post by Peter Moylan
And of course we all remember how "The Graduate" got to Berkeley by
driving on the Bay Bridge in the wrong direction.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 14:17:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which,
Interesting -- we say "Speaking of which."
Post by Peter Moylan
I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
*The Bob Newhart Show* had, for many years, as its opening montage Dr.
Bob (he was a psycholgist with a downtown office) riding the "L" in
the wrong direction to reach his home on the North Side lakefront.
And there are a lot more Chicagoans than Newcastellians!
And that is important why?
Oh, pretending you're "killfiling" me again?

Because there was far more protest to the producers about a wildly
popular sitcom that ran for quite a few years than there were from
the small number of people who were familiar with Newcastle landmarks
or dialects.

Nothing on "talking of which" vs. "speaking of which"?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
And of course we all remember how "The Graduate" got to Berkeley by
driving on the Bay Bridge in the wrong direction.
John Varela
2019-10-30 19:53:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will
manage to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of
other cities with familiar landmarks.
--
John Varela
Katy Jennison
2019-10-30 20:25:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California, because
so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week or so we
have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I have
recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I was
unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via locations
that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this case there's
no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this particular series
has been widely criticised for the use of language that was not used in
this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will
manage to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of
other cities with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
--
Katy Jennison
charles
2019-10-30 21:55:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California,
because so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week
or so we have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I
have recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I
was unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via
locations that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this
case there's no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this
particular series has been widely criticised for the use of language
that was not used in this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will manage
to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of other cities
with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
there was a Peter Sellers' film "Battle of the Sexes" set in Edinburgh. Out
of every window you could see Edinburgh Castle - even when he'd entered a
house in Moray Place. Katy will understand this.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Katy Jennison
2019-10-31 10:35:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California,
because so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week
or so we have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I
have recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I
was unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via
locations that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this
case there's no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this
particular series has been widely criticised for the use of language
that was not used in this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will manage
to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of other cities
with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
there was a Peter Sellers' film "Battle of the Sexes" set in Edinburgh. Out
of every window you could see Edinburgh Castle - even when he'd entered a
house in Moray Place. Katy will understand this.
Snorfle!

(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to Edinburgh
before are disappointed to find that they can't actually see the Castle
from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
--
Katy Jennison
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 14:47:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.

As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Katy Jennison
2019-10-31 15:46:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?

Edinburgh can be absolutely beautiful in the rain.
Post by Peter Moylan
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 18:17:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Edinburgh can be absolutely beautiful in the rain.
Post by Peter Moylan
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
Interesting. I think of Edinburgh as a place where it doesn't rain:
cold, yes, but wet, never. The opposite from Glasgow. I don't think it
has ever rained when I've been in Edinburgh.
--
athel
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-31 18:39:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:17:32 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Edinburgh can be absolutely beautiful in the rain.
Post by Peter Moylan
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
cold, yes, but wet, never. The opposite from Glasgow. I don't think it
has ever rained when I've been in Edinburgh.
I don't remember any rain.

I flew to the UK in August, 1978, and while I was waiting in the
standby line at JFK Airport, I met a gal from Glasgow. Since we had
many hours to wait for our flight, we took the bus, and I showed her
around Manhattan. She invited me to visit her in Glasgow.

So I took the train from Lancaster, and stayed at her home in
Scotstounhill, Glasgow. She lived with her mother.

So she drove me to Edinburgh, and I toured the castle, and she drove
me to Dunblane where her friend, Arthur Dewar, was the proprietor of
the Stirling Arms Hotel (and bar) where we stayed. Lovely time. Had
freshly smoked finnan haddie at the bar. Ate venison at the Buttery
in Glasgow. Now it is called "Two Fat Ladies at The Buttery".

Very friendly and generous people in Scotland, at least from my
experiences.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-31 18:39:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:46:27 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Munich was our problem. We had slickers but not waterproof shoes. My
leather shoes were soaked and I got a bad case of athlete's foot.

I don't speak German, and the words "athlete's foot" and "Desenex"
didn't work in any pharmacy I found. Desenex is an ointment used here
that works miracles on athlete's foot.

I managed to convey that the area between my toes was rotting and
itchy by much pointing and face-making. The German substitute for
Desenex that was provided is not an effective medication.

Since that trip, a tube of Desenex has been a permanent addition to my
travel kit.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-10-31 22:04:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:46:27 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Munich was our problem. We had slickers but not waterproof shoes. My
leather shoes were soaked and I got a bad case of athlete's foot.
You don't get athlete's foot from wet shoes, do you?
I guess it was a flare-up.
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't speak German, and the words "athlete's foot" and "Desenex"
didn't work in any pharmacy I found. Desenex is an ointment used here
that works miracles on athlete's foot.
If you want to communicate internationally, substance names are
obviously much better than brand names. Ibuprofen will be understood,
Advil, maybe not. Maybe not even in the UK. So miconazole is what you
wanted, and you can get it in Germany. In fact it was originally
developed in Belgium.
Post by Tony Cooper
I managed to convey that the area between my toes was rotting and
itchy by much pointing and face-making. The German substitute for
Desenex that was provided is not an effective medication.
Since that trip, a tube of Desenex has been a permanent addition to my
travel kit.
My Japanese girlfriend way back was the daughter of a pharmacist, but
she grudgingly admitted that with a German product, she got rid of
athlete's foot for a much longer time than ever before. Although I
guess the drier climate may have helped.

For some reason, I never caught athlete's foot, even sharing a shower
for years with siblings and later a girlfriend who all had it.
--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Tony Cooper
2019-10-31 22:28:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:04:59 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:46:27 +0000, Katy Jennison
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Munich was our problem. We had slickers but not waterproof shoes. My
leather shoes were soaked and I got a bad case of athlete's foot.
You don't get athlete's foot from wet shoes, do you?
I guess it was a flare-up.
I am not a podiatrist, but as I understand it, if you have athlete's
foot any time in your life it can go into remission but flare up
again. Wet shoes and socks can cause it to flare up. That's one of
the reasons it's called "athlete's foot"...jocks' feet get sweaty.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
I don't speak German, and the words "athlete's foot" and "Desenex"
didn't work in any pharmacy I found. Desenex is an ointment used here
that works miracles on athlete's foot.
If you want to communicate internationally, substance names are
obviously much better than brand names. Ibuprofen will be understood,
Advil, maybe not. Maybe not even in the UK. So miconazole is what you
wanted, and you can get it in Germany. In fact it was originally
developed in Belgium.
Yeah, right, before I left the US I made sure I had my passport and
the chemical names of everything in my medicine cabinet.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tony Cooper
I managed to convey that the area between my toes was rotting and
itchy by much pointing and face-making. The German substitute for
Desenex that was provided is not an effective medication.
Since that trip, a tube of Desenex has been a permanent addition to my
travel kit.
My Japanese girlfriend way back was the daughter of a pharmacist, but
she grudgingly admitted that with a German product, she got rid of
athlete's foot for a much longer time than ever before. Although I
guess the drier climate may have helped.
For some reason, I never caught athlete's foot, even sharing a shower
for years with siblings and later a girlfriend who all had it.
It's a combo thing. You may pick it up in the shower, but if you dry
your feet and in between your toes you won't "catch it". It takes
more than contact.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-10-31 22:04:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Oh dear, did no-one warn you about the absolute necessity of waterproof
clothes and hats and footwear and umbrellas?
Edinburgh can be absolutely beautiful in the rain.
Post by Peter Moylan
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can understand.

I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a few
showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe one
shower, at night.

And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
--
... it might be nice to see ourselves reflected in TV shows and
Pride season campaigns, but the cis white men who invented the
gender binary still own the damn mirror.
-- Delilah Friedler at slate.com
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 11:57:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a few
showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe one
shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
b***@shaw.ca
2019-11-01 18:15:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a few
showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe one
shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
August used to be our only guaranteed dry month. More precisely,
the rain would stop in mid-July, just in time for Vancouver Folk Festival
weekend, and there would be little or no rain in August and sometimes
September. Over the last couple of decades, the dry spells have
lengthened and now they sometimes start in May, necessitating
water rationing by mid-summer.

bill
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 18:31:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a few
showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe one
shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
August used to be our only guaranteed dry month. More precisely,
the rain would stop in mid-July, just in time for Vancouver Folk Festival
weekend, and there would be little or no rain in August and sometimes
September. Over the last couple of decades, the dry spells have
lengthened and now they sometimes start in May, necessitating
water rationing by mid-summer.
It was the meeting of LACUS, Linguistic Association of Canada and the US,
which existed as an outlet for non-Chomskyan linguistics. The meetings
alternated between the two countries -- I went to Ann Arbor in 91, Chicago
in 93, and Vancouver in 94. The 92 meeting was somewhere in Quebec --
possibly Helen Gonn, Gaspé Peninsula but maybe even farther north -- so
I didn't consider going. But then 75 was at North Texas in Arlington, and
I knew I wasn't going to northern Texas in August, and apparently that was
enough to get me dropped from the mailing list.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-01 20:41:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:31:51 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in
hus
hed
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can
understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a
few showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe
one shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
August used to be our only guaranteed dry month. More precisely,
the rain would stop in mid-July, just in time for Vancouver Folk
Festival weekend, and there would be little or no rain in August and
sometimes September. Over the last couple of decades, the dry spells
have lengthened and now they sometimes start in May, necessitating
water rationing by mid-summer.
It was the meeting of LACUS, Linguistic Association of Canada and the
US, which existed as an outlet for non-Chomskyan linguistics. The
meetings alternated between the two countries -- I went to Ann Arbor
in 91, Chicago in 93, and Vancouver in 94. The 92 meeting was
somewhere in Quebec -- possibly Helen Gonn, Gaspé Peninsula but maybe
even farther north -- so I didn't consider going. But then 75 was at
North Texas in Arlington, and I knew I wasn't going to northern Texas
in August, and apparently that was enough to get me dropped from the
mailing list.
Fascinating.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 21:38:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:31:51 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It was the meeting of LACUS, Linguistic Association of Canada and the
US, which existed as an outlet for non-Chomskyan linguistics. The
meetings alternated between the two countries -- I went to Ann Arbor
in 91, Chicago in 93, and Vancouver in 94. The 92 meeting was
somewhere in Quebec -- possibly Helen Gonn, Gaspé Peninsula but maybe
even farther north -- so I didn't consider going. But then 75 was at
North Texas in Arlington, and I knew I wasn't going to northern Texas
in August, and apparently that was enough to get me dropped from the
mailing list.
Fascinating.
Thank you!
Tony Cooper
2019-11-02 02:37:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 20:41:04 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:31:51 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in
hus
hed
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can
understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a
few showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe
one shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
August used to be our only guaranteed dry month. More precisely,
the rain would stop in mid-July, just in time for Vancouver Folk
Festival weekend, and there would be little or no rain in August and
sometimes September. Over the last couple of decades, the dry spells
have lengthened and now they sometimes start in May, necessitating
water rationing by mid-summer.
It was the meeting of LACUS, Linguistic Association of Canada and the
US, which existed as an outlet for non-Chomskyan linguistics. The
meetings alternated between the two countries -- I went to Ann Arbor
in 91, Chicago in 93, and Vancouver in 94. The 92 meeting was
somewhere in Quebec -- possibly Helen Gonn, Gaspé Peninsula but maybe
even farther north -- so I didn't consider going. But then 75 was at
North Texas in Arlington, and I knew I wasn't going to northern Texas
in August, and apparently that was enough to get me dropped from the
mailing list.
Fascinating.
Riveting, I would say, but being dropped from a mailing list is
usually based on non-payment of dues (Currently $50 annually for
LACUS). Too bad, because the 2020 meeting will be at Molloy College
in Long Island, NY in August. Convenient to Jersey City, but August
in Long Island may be as hot as Texas.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2019-11-01 22:58:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Katy Jennison
Ah. Edinburgh is still waiting for a dry season. I have a dim
recollection of a dry week once. People still talk about it in hushed
tones.
I think you're trying to keep away the tourists. I can understand.
I spent a week in Edinburgh once and we had one rainy day and a few
showers. Later I spent a week in London, and there was maybe one
shower, at night.
And I don't think I'm a fine weather god.
I was in Vancouver for a whole week, nearly, in August 1994 -- nary
a drop of rain! (BC, not WA)
August used to be our only guaranteed dry month. More precisely,
the rain would stop in mid-July, just in time for Vancouver Folk Festival
weekend, and there would be little or no rain in August and sometimes
September. Over the last couple of decades, the dry spells have
lengthened and now they sometimes start in May, necessitating
water rationing by mid-summer.
It was the meeting of LACUS, Linguistic Association of Canada and the US,
which existed as an outlet for non-Chomskyan linguistics. The meetings
alternated between the two countries -- I went to Ann Arbor in 91, Chicago
in 93, and Vancouver in 94. The 92 meeting was somewhere in Quebec --
possibly Helen Gonn, Gaspé Peninsula but maybe even farther north -- so
I didn't consider going. But then 75 was at North Texas in Arlington, and
I knew I wasn't going to northern Texas in August, and apparently that was
enough to get me dropped from the mailing list.
Says here:

XIX (1992) Université du Québec à Montréal
XXII (1995) Trinity University, San Antonio

http://lacus.weebly.com/conference-venues.html
charles
2019-10-31 17:31:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
theer isn't one. ;-)
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Lanarcam
2019-10-31 18:06:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
As it happened, our visit to the city was spoilt because it rained the
whole time. We should have gone there in the dry season.
theer isn't one. ;-)
Yes, there is one: July-August, that is July 31st, August 1st.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-31 18:31:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 1 Nov 2019 01:47:53 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Katy Jennison
(I wonder whether thousands of tourists who've never been to
Edinburgh before are disappointed to find that they can't actually
see the Castle from the bedroom window of their B&B.)
FWIW, I stayed outside the city centre on my one visit to Edinburgh.
(And was thoroughly pissed off by the bus driver who kicked us off the
bus, in the pouring rain, for not having the exact change.) But I got to
see the castle from the bus on the trip inwards. Big deal.
Edinburgh, when we were there, had a transit system that based the
fare on the distance traveled. We boarded a bus with no particular
destination in mind. (Not in our minds, I'm sure the bus had one in
mind) The driver* wanted to collect a fare based on our destination,
so we paid the fare to the furthest point.

We saw something interesting a few stops on the journey and prepared
to get off the bus. The driver was a bit upset because we'd paid
full-fare and declared - in an irritated tone - that he wasn't
prepared to offer a refund. We disembarked anyway and further
advanced the perception that Americans were wastrels.

*It may have been a conductor rather than the driver. I forget.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mack A. Damia
2019-10-31 15:04:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:55:03 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of discovering
that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty and
discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California,
because so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last week
or so we have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle, NSW. I
have recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw, although I
was unable to work out how someone could drive from A to B via
locations that have nothing to do with the direct route, so in this
case there's no thrill in recognising the locations. Besides, this
particular series has been widely criticised for the use of language
that was not used in this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will manage
to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of other cities
with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
there was a Peter Sellers' film "Battle of the Sexes" set in Edinburgh. Out
of every window you could see Edinburgh Castle - even when he'd entered a
house in Moray Place. Katy will understand this.
What is the story about the film and the castle if there is one?

Reason I ask is that Imdb has nothing about it, and it sounds like
worthwhile trivia to be included.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 16:40:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:55:03 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
there was a Peter Sellers' film "Battle of the Sexes" set in Edinburgh. Out
of every window you could see Edinburgh Castle - even when he'd entered a
house in Moray Place. Katy will understand this.
What is the story about the film and the castle if there is one?
Reason I ask is that Imdb has nothing about it, and it sounds like
worthwhile trivia to be included.
It would be like seeing the Empire State Building from every window in
New York City. Duh.

Though I gather Edinburgh Castle is a tad more prominent on the skyline
than the ESB is within it.
charles
2019-10-31 17:33:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mack A. Damia
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 21:55:03 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by John Varela
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:25:03 UTC, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Paul
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an
educated American not to know of him. There are probably no more
than twenty writers in that category. They would include in no
particular order: Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
...Steinbeck...
Talking of which, I was once driving more or less at random around
California, exploring the area, and got a real kick out of
discovering that I was in Cannery Row.
That matched the feeling that I got when I walked out on a jetty
and discovered the sign "Dock of the Bay".
Of course it's not hard to find such connections in California,
because so much of popular culture has origins there. In the last
week or so we have seen a series set in my own town of Newcastle,
NSW. I have recognised the places in a short sequence that I saw,
although I was unable to work out how someone could drive from A to
B via locations that have nothing to do with the direct route, so
in this case there's no thrill in recognising the locations.
Besides, this particular series has been widely criticised for the
use of language that was not used in this area in that era.
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will
manage to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of
other cities with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
there was a Peter Sellers' film "Battle of the Sexes" set in Edinburgh.
Out of every window you could see Edinburgh Castle - even when he'd
entered a house in Moray Place. Katy will understand this.
What is the story about the film and the castle if there is one?
The castle doesn't feasture in the story-line. It just intrudes into just
about every shot.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
b***@shaw.ca
2019-10-31 00:37:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by John Varela
That's common in movies set in Washington DC. A short trip will
manage to pass by all the major monuments. It's probably true of
other cities with familiar landmarks.
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
It's also true of Vancouver, where a lot of North American TV shows
and movies are produced. It's usually the outdoor shots, when a car
turns a corner and is instantly several miles from that corner.

bill
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-31 09:40:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.

James Bond can't beat that,

Jan

For those who love another view of the Amsterdam canals:

Utrecht is where they crash into the tables by the side.
BTW, it is a partial remake of 'Puppet on a String'
(after Alistair McLean, definitely not a 'great writer')

also with Amsterdam canal at speed,
and also with space jumps.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 09:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
Many films shot in Marseilles, of which Wikipedia lists 64 (including
one in Tamil!), show that sort of thing. You see the hero driving fast
along the road from Callelongue (silly in itself, as the road is a very
long (Y-shaped) cul de sac, so there is nowhere plausible he could be
driving from) and then suddenly appearing somewhere quite different.
There also appears to be a legal requirement to include a view of Notre
Dame de la Garde at some point. I had thought that "Marius and
Jeannette" was a rare exception, but when we saw it again on television
a few months ago I saw that the obligatory shot was there, albeit
briefly.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-31 11:49:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
Many films shot in Marseilles, of which Wikipedia lists 64 (including
one in Tamil!), show that sort of thing. You see the hero driving fast
along the road from Callelongue (silly in itself, as the road is a very
long (Y-shaped) cul de sac, so there is nowhere plausible he could be
driving from) and then suddenly appearing somewhere quite different.
There also appears to be a legal requirement to include a view of Notre
Dame de la Garde at some point. I had thought that "Marius and
Jeannette" was a rare exception, but when we saw it again on television
a few months ago I saw that the obligatory shot was there, albeit
briefly.
It can hardly be a legal requirement, but any film crew
will need permission from the municipal authorities
to film in the public space, and help from the police,
so they can impose any condition they want, and put it in a contract.
Seems hardly necessary though, the thing is in such a dominant position
above the old town that it would be very hard to miss,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 18:13:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
Many films shot in Marseilles, of which Wikipedia lists 64 (including
one in Tamil!), show that sort of thing. You see the hero driving fast
along the road from Callelongue (silly in itself, as the road is a very
long (Y-shaped) cul de sac, so there is nowhere plausible he could be
driving from) and then suddenly appearing somewhere quite different.
There also appears to be a legal requirement to include a view of Notre
Dame de la Garde at some point. I had thought that "Marius and
Jeannette" was a rare exception, but when we saw it again on television
a few months ago I saw that the obligatory shot was there, albeit
briefly.
It can hardly be a legal requirement,
Of course not. Did you take it seriously?
Post by J. J. Lodder
but any film crew
will need permission from the municipal authorities
to film in the public space, and help from the police,
so they can impose any condition they want, and put it in a contract.
Seems hardly necessary though, the thing is in such a dominant position
above the old town that it would be very hard to miss,
Jan
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-11-02 20:28:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
Many films shot in Marseilles, of which Wikipedia lists 64 (including
one in Tamil!), show that sort of thing. You see the hero driving fast
along the road from Callelongue (silly in itself, as the road is a very
long (Y-shaped) cul de sac, so there is nowhere plausible he could be
driving from) and then suddenly appearing somewhere quite different.
There also appears to be a legal requirement to include a view of Notre
Dame de la Garde at some point. I had thought that "Marius and
Jeannette" was a rare exception, but when we saw it again on television
a few months ago I saw that the obligatory shot was there, albeit
briefly.
It can hardly be a legal requirement,
Of course not. Did you take it seriously?
One never knows with those provincial town officials.
BTW, in the news yesterday: the yokels who run the town of Tokyo
wanted to have the Olympic marathon 2020 run in their town,
and nowhere else.
(at an expected 30+ degrees at 80+% relative humidity)
The Olympic committee blocked that,
and it will be held in Sapporo instead,

Jan

Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 13:58:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
...

The only one of these I've noticed is that in /The Deerhunter/, set in
Clairton, Pa., the wedding takes place in a church in Cleveland, Ohio,
over 130 miles away. Wikipedia informs me that Clairton scenes were
also shot in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Washington, and of course
the Vietnam scenes were shot in Thailand.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-10-31 14:38:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:58:49 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
...
The only one of these I've noticed is that in /The Deerhunter/, set in
Clairton, Pa., the wedding takes place in a church in Cleveland, Ohio,
over 130 miles away. Wikipedia informs me that Clairton scenes were
also shot in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Washington, and of course
the Vietnam scenes were shot in Thailand.
The movie "Breaking Away" was a trial to watch for anyone who was
familiar with Bloomington, Indiana and Indiana University. The plot
was about some local non-students entering a team in the university's
annual "Little 500" bicycle race.

The race, which is held in May, included footage of riders on a road
flanked with trees in brilliant fall colors. The terms used were not
the terms used by I.U. people in the late 1970s, and several scenes
had people going the wrong way on one-way streets on the campus.

Still, it was a great movie, was nominated for an Oscar, and won an
Academy Award for the script. If you didn't know the campus, and
about the event, you wouldn't notice the errors.

The 1986 movie "Hoosiers", about a small town's team that won the 1954
state basketball championship, was remarkably free of gaffes. I was
in the stands when Milan won that game, saw the shot that made Bobbby
Plump famous (by Indiana basketball standards), and was in high school
in that era so I knew how the sectionals/regionals/finals system
worked. Never, watching that movie, did I exclaim "What? That's not
right!".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2019-10-31 17:16:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:58:49 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
...
The only one of these I've noticed is that in /The Deerhunter/, set in
Clairton, Pa., the wedding takes place in a church in Cleveland, Ohio,
over 130 miles away. Wikipedia informs me that Clairton scenes were
also shot in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Washington, and of course
the Vietnam scenes were shot in Thailand.
The movie "Breaking Away" was a trial to watch for anyone who was
familiar with Bloomington, Indiana and Indiana University. The plot
was about some local non-students entering a team in the university's
annual "Little 500" bicycle race.
The race, which is held in May, included footage of riders on a road
flanked with trees in brilliant fall colors. The terms used were not
the terms used by I.U. people in the late 1970s, and several scenes
had people going the wrong way on one-way streets on the campus.
Still, it was a great movie, was nominated for an Oscar, and won an
Academy Award for the script. If you didn't know the campus, and
about the event, you wouldn't notice the errors.
I don't know the campus or the event and didn't notice the errors, but I
agree that it was a great movie.
--
Ken
charles
2019-10-31 17:30:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:58:49 -0600, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Katy Jennison
If Laura were here she'd tell you how amusing it is, when watching
something like 'Morse', to see someone go through a doorway in one
building and emerge into a quite different building half a mile away.
You can't beat the movie 'Amsterdamned' for that kind of thing.
Near the end the have a speedboat pursuit in the Amsterdam canals.
They disappear round a bend, and crash in the main canal of Utrecht,
about 30 km away, after which they continue in Amsterdam.
...
The only one of these I've noticed is that in /The Deerhunter/, set in
Clairton, Pa., the wedding takes place in a church in Cleveland, Ohio,
over 130 miles away. Wikipedia informs me that Clairton scenes were
also shot in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Washington, and of course
the Vietnam scenes were shot in Thailand.
The movie "Breaking Away" was a trial to watch for anyone who was
familiar with Bloomington, Indiana and Indiana University. The plot
was about some local non-students entering a team in the university's
annual "Little 500" bicycle race.
The race, which is held in May, included footage of riders on a road
flanked with trees in brilliant fall colors. The terms used were not
the terms used by I.U. people in the late 1970s, and several scenes
had people going the wrong way on one-way streets on the campus.
Still, it was a great movie, was nominated for an Oscar, and won an
Academy Award for the script. If you didn't know the campus, and
about the event, you wouldn't notice the errors.
The 1986 movie "Hoosiers", about a small town's team that won the 1954
state basketball championship, was remarkably free of gaffes. I was
in the stands when Milan won that game, saw the shot that made Bobbby
Plump famous (by Indiana basketball standards), and was in high school
in that era so I knew how the sectionals/regionals/finals system
worked. Never, watching that movie, did I exclaim "What? That's not
right!".
I remember a UK TV episode where the big house in the nect village was used
as a Barvarian castle. Fine, only the scene was set for the October Bier
Festival and the daffodils were in full bloom.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 13:52:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
A lot will depend on your definitions of "educated", "know of", and
"writer". Does Benjamin Franklin or Frederick Douglass count? And
David brought up "America's great writers", in which case the definition
of "America's" is also unclear (Raymond Chandler, Vladimir Nabokov,
Henry James?).

And you seem to be thinking only of "literary" writers, though I'd say
it's surprising for both educated and uneducated Americans not to know
of Stephen King.
Post by Paul
He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Sontag? I'd have thought Carver was more famous than her, but I haven't
seen any surveys.
Post by Paul
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-writing
classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.
And photography classes in college are a good place to have heard of Sontag.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tak To
2019-10-30 17:28:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by David Kleinecke
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Even though he and I lived in the same general area in the
same time period I feel sure I never heard of him before this
thread. I am arrogant enough to think I have at least heard of
all of "America's great writers". But obviously he has his
admirers.
If I ever read anything of Carver's it will be by accident.
Yes, I don't think he's so famous that it's surprising for an educated
American not to know of him. There are probably no more than twenty
Hemingway, Faulkner, Mailer, Sontag, Salinger...
He's certainly much less famous than those five.
Since you hadn't heard of him, you probably didn't take any creative-writing
classes at university. They focus on him a lot in those circles.
I have read some Carver short stories in magazines -- /The
New Yorker/, /The Atlantic Monthly/, /Esquire/, etc. Not a
style[1] that I like, but very much in line with other short
fictions in magazines those days, and I could see why his work
was adored at Creative Writing classes.

There was a mild controversial a couple of years ago when his
widow released the unedited version of some of his works. It
seemed that his style was, well, more the work of his editor
than Carver's. I am surprised that the Wikip article on Carver
does not mention it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/05/gordon-lish-books-interview-editing-raymond-carver

[1] I just learned that there is a name to that style --
"Dirty Realism". Not an illuminating term, but I think
people would recognize it from the description instantly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_realism
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-28 20:47:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
A matter of taste, I'd say. Some people's understanding is the
opposite of yours.
Post by Paul
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Well, yes. There are even the inexplicably overlooked "greatest
writers", who weren't successful.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-28 22:42:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Whether intentional or not, such a claim guarantees a
"Really? You're kidding!"
response from the majority of people who read it.
--
Sam Plusnet
Paul
2019-10-29 11:41:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Whether intentional or not, such a claim guarantees a
"Really? You're kidding!"
response from the majority of people who read it.
It's not clear to me what claim you're referring to.
Do you mean the claim that Carver is a great writer, or
do you mean my claim that it is questionable to assert that
Carver is a great writer?

Paul
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-29 20:40:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
This seems completely wrong to me. I've read all of his work, and
many of his stories several times. They are certainly worth reading.
However, when I do read a Carver story, I always feel that I know exactly
what the author intended and what his message is. That isn't great
literature. Literary art (as I understand it) has an element of mystery.
The reader is not quite sure what is meant, and deeper and deeper
layers of meaning and understanding are uncovered when we read further.
It seems to me that "greatest writer" means nothing more than "I like this
successful writer and have a platform on which to promote him or her."
Whether intentional or not, such a claim guarantees a
"Really? You're kidding!"
response from the majority of people who read it.
It's not clear to me what claim you're referring to.
Do you mean the claim that Carver is a great writer, or
do you mean my claim that it is questionable to assert that
Carver is a great writer?
The former. Any claim that some recent author is the "greatest writer"
is bound to earn more brickbats than bouquets.
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-31 11:14:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
It doesn't say that any more (though it did when you first posted this)
as it was edited in early October. Presumably there are people out
there who don't agree that he is amongst America's greatest writers.
Maybe someone from this group.
--
athel
Paul
2019-10-31 12:30:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
It doesn't say that any more (though it did when you first posted this)
as it was edited in early October. Presumably there are people out
there who don't agree that he is amongst America's greatest writers.
Maybe someone from this group.
In case you're wondering, I have never done any Wikipedia editing on
anything.

Paul
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-31 14:09:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
It doesn't say that any more (though it did when you first posted
this) as it was edited in early October. Presumably there are people
out there who don't agree that he is amongst America's greatest
writers. Maybe someone from this group.
In case you're wondering, I have never done any Wikipedia editing on
anything.
Come on, it's a team effort you know.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 14:21:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Paul
The Wikipedia article on Raymond Carver says that he is
"considered to be amongst America's greatest writers."
It doesn't say that any more (though it did when you first posted this)
as it was edited in early October. Presumably there are people out
there who don't agree that he is amongst America's greatest writers.
Maybe someone from this group.
If it said "amongst" it probably wasn't an evaluation from an American.

There's no indication that when Paul quoted that, he had recorded it at
any time earlier than October 28, so how does "early October" figure in?
Loading...