Discussion:
Corn - vegetable, fruit or grain?
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occam
2020-02-04 17:37:13 UTC
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I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).

The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.

Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
Spains Harden
2020-02-04 18:27:26 UTC
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Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
No: "corn" used to be "wheat" in BrE - but has long-since included
AmE "sweet corn".

How about tomatoes and rhubarb? Fruit or veg?
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-02-05 00:02:58 UTC
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On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 10:27:26 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
No: "corn" used to be "wheat" in BrE - but has long-since included
AmE "sweet corn".
In BrE "corn" used to be a broad term that included wheat.

OED:

II. spec. The fruit of the cereals.
3.
a. collective singular. The seed of the cereal or farinaceous plants
as a produce of agriculture; grain.
As a general term the word includes all the cereals, wheat, rye,
barley, oats, maize, rice, etc., and, with qualification (as black
corn, pulse corn), is extended to leguminous plants, as pease,
beans, etc., cultivated for food. Locally, the word, when not
otherwise qualified, is often understood to denote that kind of
cereal which is the leading crop of the district; hence in the
greater part of England ‘corn’ is = wheat n., in North Britain and
Ireland = oats; in the U.S. the word, as short for Indian corn n.,
is restricted to maize (see 5).

5.
a. Originally U.S. Maize or Indian corn, Zea Mays; applied both to
the separated seeds, and to the growing or reaped crop. corn on the
cob: green maize suitable for boiling or roasting; maize cooked and
eaten on the cob.
Wheat, rye, barley, oats, etc. are in U.S. called collectively
grain. Corn- in combinations, in American usage, must therefore be
understood to mean maize, whereas in English usage it may mean any
cereal; e.g. a cornfield in England is a field of any cereal that
is grown in the country, in U.S. one of maize.

That entry in the OED is dated 1893.

The places where cereals were bought and sold were "Corn Exchanges".
Post by Spains Harden
How about tomatoes and rhubarb? Fruit or veg?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-05 02:22:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The places where cereals were bought and sold were "Corn Exchanges".
And many a schoolchild has been tortured with facts about the "Corn Laws".
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2020-02-05 02:35:52 UTC
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Post by Spains Harden
Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
No: "corn" used to be "wheat" in BrE - but has long-since included
AmE "sweet corn".
How about tomatoes and rhubarb? Fruit or veg?
The answer to your question seems to depend on who you ask: a chef or a
botanist.

A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.

The rest is just a load of rhubarb.
Garrett Wollman
2020-02-05 02:47:31 UTC
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Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
RH Draney
2020-02-05 07:56:49 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is a
berry....

Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-05 08:50:28 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
--
athel
occam
2020-02-05 19:17:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Adam Funk
2020-02-06 09:30:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.

"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."

"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
--
I was born, lucky me, in a land that I love.
Though I'm poor, I am free.
When I grow I shall fight; for this land I shall die.
May the sun never set. ---The Kinks
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-06 19:34:50 UTC
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
--
Sam Plusnet
Adam Funk
2020-02-07 09:56:53 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
AIUI, the problem is that botanists switched from Latin to vernacular
& had to pick the closest synonyms they could find.
--
XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of
binary files.
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-08 10:23:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
AIUI, the problem is that botanists switched from Latin to vernacular
& had to pick the closest synonyms they could find.
Just the other way round.
They switched from vernacular to Latin
to create desciptions they could all understand,

Jan
Adam Funk
2020-02-10 10:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
AIUI, the problem is that botanists switched from Latin to vernacular
& had to pick the closest synonyms they could find.
Just the other way round.
They switched from vernacular to Latin
to create desciptions they could all understand,
But then they switched back & (IIRC) the closest English equivalent to
"baca" was "berry".
--
Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our
way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea
that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for.
---Hunter S Thompson
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-07 10:05:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to
people like PTD.
--
athel
David Kleinecke
2020-02-07 19:01:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to
people like PTD.
I like the theorem:
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every
blanket.

I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.

But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
Peter Moylan
2020-02-08 01:53:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every
blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
If you ever find out, I'd be interested in the answer. I'd never heard
of it. Googling tells me that some beekeepers put blankets over hives in
cold weather, but that's nothing to do with mathematics.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-08 07:58:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists>
Post by Adam Funk
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words>
for their own purposes.
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their>
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions>
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb>
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss>
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to>
people like PTD.
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2020-02-08 08:26:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".

The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some time to
figure out what it means.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-08 09:08:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".
Now that I know what "ergodic" means I find it quite a simple idea.
Post by Peter Moylan
The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some time to
figure out what it means.
--
athel
Adam Funk
2020-02-10 13:30:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".
The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some time to
figure out what it means.
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx Brothers.
--
There is no Internet of Things. There are only many unpatched,
vulnerable, small computers on the Internet.
@netik
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-10 15:15:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel Cornish-Bowden
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".
The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some time to
figure out what it means.
Does this help?
A Markov blanket is the condition that all information about a variable
in a Bayesian network is contained within the set of nodes composed of
its parents (the set of states that influence it), children (the set of
variables that are influenced by it), and other parents of its children.
Maybe not much!
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx Brothers.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2020-02-11 00:18:34 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel
Cornish-Bowden
I like the theorem: There is a blanket over every hive and a
hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch
of mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable. But it
is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston,
K., 2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10,
20130475:1–12. doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".
The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some
time to figure out what it means.
Does this help?
A Markov blanket is the condition that all information about a
variable in a Bayesian network is contained within the set of nodes
composed of its parents (the set of states that influence it),
children (the set of variables that are influenced by it), and
other parents of its children.
Maybe not much!
Again, one of those things where the definition is understandable, but a
few examples would help to establish what it really means. And, frankly,
I'm not motivated to track that down.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx
Brothers.
I'll mark off that reminder. But Andrey Markov died at about the same
time as Karl Marx was born.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Adam Funk
2020-02-11 13:33:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 2:05:36 AM UTC-8, Athel
Cornish-Bowden
I like the theorem: There is a blanket over every hive and a
hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch
of mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable. But it
is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston,
K., 2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10,
20130475:1–12. doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
I understand all of those words except "blanket".
The term "Markov blanket" is googlable, but it will take me some
time to figure out what it means.
Does this help?
A Markov blanket is the condition that all information about a
variable in a Bayesian network is contained within the set of nodes
composed of its parents (the set of states that influence it),
children (the set of variables that are influenced by it), and
other parents of its children.
Maybe not much!
Again, one of those things where the definition is understandable, but a
few examples would help to establish what it really means. And, frankly,
I'm not motivated to track that down.
Yeah. I know a bit about Markov models so I can get the gist of it.
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx
Brothers.
I'll mark off that reminder. But Andrey Markov died at about the same
time as Karl Marx was born.
"Je suis marxiste, tendence Groucho."
--
you have slipped from beneath me, like a false and nervous squid
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-11 15:02:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx
Brothers.
I'll mark off that reminder. But Andrey Markov died at about the same
time as Karl Marx was born.
"Je suis marxiste, tendence Groucho."
In Mike Nichols's somewhat unfortunate movie of *Catch-22*, a Russian
officer has on his wall portraits of Groucho and Lennon. The camera
lingers on them rather too long for conveying the joke.
Ross
2020-02-13 23:10:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Just don't get the Markov Brothers mixed up with the Marx Brothers.
I'll mark off that reminder. But Andrey Markov died at about the same
time as Karl Marx was born.
"Je suis marxiste, tendence Groucho."
In Mike Nichols's somewhat unfortunate movie of *Catch-22*, a Russian
officer has on his wall portraits of Groucho and Lennon. The camera
lingers on them rather too long for conveying the joke.
Probably a joke that was in the air. See Firesign Theater album released
about a year earlier:

Loading Image...
David Kleinecke
2020-02-08 16:20:57 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists>
Post by Adam Funk
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words>
for their own purposes.
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their>
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions>
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb>
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss>
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to>
people like PTD.
There is a blanket over every hive and a hive under every blanket.
I have no idea what it means. I don't even know what branch of
mathematics it belongs to. I suspect real variable.
But it is a nice example of mathematical practice - everyday words
are co-opted to serve as names of new mathematical entities.
What about an "ergodic system with a Markov blanket"? (Friston, K.,
2013. Life as we know it. J. Roy. Soc. Interf., 10, 20130475:1–12.
doi:10.1098/rsif.2013.0475.)
The theorem I quoted goes back seventy five years or so and I
assume that "blanket" has a different meaning in this new work.
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-07 19:07:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their hearts'
content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions must be
used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb tenses and
parts of speech, which meant something when Miss Thistethwaite taught
you in primary school, but something different to people like PTD.
Alas I never had any teacher called Miss Thistethwaite.
I did have a teacher called Mrs Hippy.
She didn't teach geography.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2020-02-08 01:55:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to
people like PTD.
Alas I never had any teacher called Miss Thistethwaite.
I did have a teacher called Mrs Hippy.
She didn't teach geography.
Two of my children had a woodwork teacher called Mr Cook and a cooking
teacher called Mrs Wood.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
J. J. Lodder
2020-02-08 10:23:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Adam Funk
Post by occam
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed berries".
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is
a berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
Are we writing a collaborative textbook of botany, or are we discussing
English as she is spoke?
I am afraid we have drifted into the domain of fruit salads, and whether
cucumbers and strawberries should be permitted to be included. (The
botanist's view would be 'yes' and 'no', respectively.)
Those answers would be for a berry salad.
"The strawberry is not, from a botanical point of view, a
berry. Technically, it is an aggregate accessory fruit..."
"Berries so defined include grapes, currants, and tomatoes, as well as
cucumbers, eggplants (aubergines) and bananas, but exclude certain
fruits that meet the culinary definition of berries, such as
strawberries and raspberries."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany)>
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
I agree. Mathematicians can talk about sets and kernels to their
hearts' content, but they don't try to insist that their definitions
must be used in the same way in ordinary language. It's like verb
tenses and parts of speech, which meant something when Miss
Thistethwaite taught you in primary school, but something different to
people like PTD.
It's worse than that.
Mathematicians can't even insist on the right meaning
when ordinary language steals their terminology,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 17:19:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 19:34:50 GMT, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> wrote:

[Berries (live and dead)]
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
Allrite then, seeing as yawr so clevah, tell me what's the differuns
between a Hip and a Haw? eh? </feedline>
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Tony Cooper
2020-02-07 17:33:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:19:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[Berries (live and dead)]
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
Allrite then, seeing as yawr so clevah, tell me what's the differuns
between a Hip and a Haw? eh? </feedline>
A hip is what you throw out when you put your haw foot out and shake
it all about.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 21:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 17:33:24 GMT, Tony Cooper <tonycooper214
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:19:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[Berries (live and dead)]
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before
botanists
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
Allrite then, seeing as yawr so clevah, tell me what's the differuns
between a Hip and a Haw? eh? </feedline>
A hip is what you throw out when you put your haw foot out and shake
it all about.
Sounds hawkward.

I was thinking more along the lines of "I've never met a hawpoptamus."
(Maybe I'm thinking of a Native American Pythagorean theorem)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2020-02-08 01:57:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 17:33:24 GMT, Tony Cooper <tonycooper214
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:19:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[Berries (live and dead)]
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before
botanists
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
Allrite then, seeing as yawr so clevah, tell me what's the differuns
between a Hip and a Haw? eh? </feedline>
A hip is what you throw out when you put your haw foot out and shake
it all about.
Sounds hawkward.
I was thinking more along the lines of "I've never met a hawpoptamus."
(Maybe I'm thinking of a Native American Pythagorean theorem)
The sum of the squaws on the other two hides?
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-08 09:47:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 08 Feb 2020 01:57:00 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 07 Feb 2020 17:33:24 GMT, Tony Cooper <tonycooper214
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:19:21 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[Berries (live and dead)]
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before
botanists
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words
for their own purposes.
Allrite then, seeing as yawr so clevah, tell me what's the differuns
between a Hip and a Haw? eh? </feedline>
A hip is what you throw out when you put your haw foot out and shake
it all about.
Sounds hawkward.
I was thinking more along the lines of "I've never met a
hawpoptamus."
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
(Maybe I'm thinking of a Native American Pythagorean theorem)
The sum of the squaws on the other two hides?
That'll be the one. (works for semi-circles too)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
occam
2020-02-08 09:37:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
Your point? People were talking of 'before the first crow of the cock'
before scientists told them it was 05:46AM. Our thoughts and our
language evolve, hand-in-hand. It is only poets (and the tardy) that get
stuck in the language of the past.
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-08 19:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
Your point? People were talking of 'before the first crow of the cock'
before scientists told them it was 05:46AM. Our thoughts and our
language evolve, hand-in-hand. It is only poets (and the tardy) that get
stuck in the language of the past.
If I took a wheel from your car and turned it into a decorative plant
pot, I don't think I could claim the moral high ground.
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2020-02-09 12:52:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by occam
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
Your point? People were talking of 'before the first crow of the cock'
before scientists told them it was 05:46AM. Our thoughts and our
language evolve, hand-in-hand. It is only poets (and the tardy) that get
stuck in the language of the past.
If I took a wheel from your car and turned it into a decorative plant
pot, I don't think I could claim the moral high ground.
You will be entitled to do so the day cars are declared obsolete and
enemies of the environment.
Adam Funk
2020-02-10 10:06:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Sam Plusnet
And yet.
People were talking about "fruit" and "berries" long before botanists
started mucking about with the language and trying to reinvent words for
their own purposes.
Your point? People were talking of 'before the first crow of the cock'
before scientists told them it was 05:46AM. Our thoughts and our
language evolve, hand-in-hand. It is only poets (and the tardy) that get
stuck in the language of the past.
"There's no money in poetry, but there's no poetry in money either."
(Robert Graves)
--
In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Verity Stob)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-05 11:32:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Post by Garrett Wollman
A botanist would go further and say that it is a berry, but you'd be
taken aback to see even "grape" tomatoes in a bowl of "mixed
berries".
Post by RH Draney
A strawberry, despite its name, is not a berry...a banana, however, is a
berry....
Similarly, a watermelon is not a melon, but a cucumber is....r
QI episode er I dunno.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry
NB 2nd paragraph, not the public's generic use in para 1.


Ah QI

https://sites.google.com/site/qitranscripts/transcripts/3x10
and text search for "berry" (Duh).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-05 17:14:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-05 17:57:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Yes, but you can't call it "fruit salad"! It wants a vinaigrette but
without the cloying sweetness so often found in commercial vinaigrettes.
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-05 19:01:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Yes, but you can't call it "fruit salad"!
In the right company, you could call it a "'fruit salad'", heavily
garnished with quotation marks (as /The Joy of Cooking/ says in another
context).
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It wants a vinaigrette
No salad wants a vinaigrette. I have spoken.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
but
without the cloying sweetness so often found in commercial vinaigrettes.
That too.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-06 14:45:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Yes, but you can't call it "fruit salad"!
In the right company, you could call it a "'fruit salad'", heavily
garnished with quotation marks (as /The Joy of Cooking/ says in another
context).
Post by Peter T. Daniels
It wants a vinaigrette
No salad wants a vinaigrette. I have spoken.
...
However, olive oil, corn oil, wine vinegar, cider vinegar, and probably
most distilled vinegar all come from fruits, so you can have a
vinaigrette if you want one. With no sugar, not even date sugar.

(I forgot to put olives and cucumbers and maybe summer squash in the
salad. Not sure about roasted winter squash.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Ken Blake
2020-02-05 18:22:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Sounds good to me too, but I wouldn't call it "fruit salad," even though
all the ingredients are fruits (they are also vegetables.)

A fruit is a ripened ovary of a plant's flower. A vegetable is a plant
or part of a plant (leaves, flowers, buds, stems, roots, etc.) that is
eaten. So all edible fruits are also vegetables.

It's commonly said these days that a tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable.
That's completely wrong, as far as I'm concerned. It's both.

Somebody else recently commented that a tomato is a berry. Yes, it is. A
berry is a type of fruit--a type that includes tomatoes.
--
Ken
Adam Funk
2020-02-05 19:24:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Sounds good to me too, but I wouldn't call it "fruit salad," even though
all the ingredients are fruits (they are also vegetables.)
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Post by Ken Blake
A fruit is a ripened ovary of a plant's flower. A vegetable is a plant
or part of a plant (leaves, flowers, buds, stems, roots, etc.) that is
eaten. So all edible fruits are also vegetables.
It's commonly said these days that a tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable.
That's completely wrong, as far as I'm concerned. It's both.
Somebody else recently commented that a tomato is a berry. Yes, it is. A
berry is a type of fruit--a type that includes tomatoes.
--
And now she eases gently
From her Austin to her Bentley
Suddenly she feels so young
Garrett Wollman
2020-02-05 20:34:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ken Blake
Sounds good to me too, but I wouldn't call it "fruit salad," even though
all the ingredients are fruits (they are also vegetables.)
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-05 21:30:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Tony Cooper
2020-02-05 21:38:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-05 21:42:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
Not on my celery. And it has to have apples.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2020-02-06 00:31:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-06 02:13:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Some use Ritz crackers instead.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2020-02-06 03:45:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Some use Ritz crackers instead.
But it might come with Parker House rolls.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Tony Cooper
2020-02-06 03:44:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Katy Jennison
2020-02-06 08:43:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'. The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed. If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
--
Katy Jennison
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-06 19:45:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-06 19:54:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
--
Jerry Friedman
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-07 01:00:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.

/dps
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 17:24:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollm
an
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified
?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other
sal
ady
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients
are t
he
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable
as finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally serve
d on a
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you orde
r a
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.
Are we back to tennis here?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Snidely
2020-02-13 08:57:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollm
an
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified
?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other
sal
ady
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients
are t
he
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable
as finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally serve d on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you orde r a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.
Are we back to tennis here?
You just keep paddling your line of wares while the rest of us about
our business.

/dps
--
"This is all very fine, but let us not be carried away be excitement,
but ask calmly, how does this person feel about in in his cooler
moments next day, with six or seven thousand feet of snow and stuff on
top of him?"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain.
s***@gmail.com
2020-02-13 22:20:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.
Are we back to tennis here?
You just keep paddling your line of wares while the rest of us about
our business.
Ping: "rest of us /go/ about our business"
(A net improvement,no?)


/dps
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-14 10:27:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat
garnishes (whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random
orange slices), but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat
anything edible on your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.
Are we back to tennis here?
You just keep paddling your line of wares while the rest of us about
our business.
Ping: "rest of us /go/ about our business"
(A net improvement,no?)
Are you just fishing for complements?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Young
2020-02-14 11:01:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Snidely
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by s***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Friedman
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat
garnishes (whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random
orange slices), but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat
anything edible on your plate.
Cue the short story about the mafia's parsley racket.
Are we back to tennis here?
You just keep paddling your line of wares while the rest of us about
our business.
Ping: "rest of us /go/ about our business"
(A net improvement,no?)
Are you just fishing for complements?
I think than depends on which angle you take..

ObAUE: The angle of dangle depends on the heat of the meet.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Adam Funk
2020-02-07 09:57:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
It's the only way to ensure they can't reüse it.
--
Why is it drug addicts and computer afficionados are both
called users? ---Clifford Stoll
Peter T. Daniels
2020-02-07 14:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
It's the only way to ensure they can't reüse it.
That suggests you're eating multiply reused parsley.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-02-07 10:08:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett Wollman>
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the> >
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a>
Post by Tony Cooper
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a>
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves> >
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do>
Post by Tony Cooper
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish>
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
I'm with Miss Manners on that (though not with her for all her rules).
Of course, there can be differences of opinion about what is edible: I
think that all of an apple is edible apart from the stalk, but my wife
is more fastidious.
--
athel
Richard Heathfield
2020-02-07 10:23:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the>
Post by Tony Cooper
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served
on a> > bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you
order a> > Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with
lettuce leaves> > underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and
mayo and so forth, do> > you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as
part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish>
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
There's a belief in America that you're not allowed to eat garnishes
(whole lettuce leaves that food is resting on, random orange slices),
but Miss Manners has said it's acceptable to eat anything edible on
your plate.
I'm with Miss Manners on that (though not with her for all her rules).
Of course, there can be differences of opinion about what is edible: I
think that all of an apple is edible apart from the stalk, but my wife
is more fastidious.
Some people even think the plate is edible.


--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within
Phil Hobbs
2020-02-06 20:43:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on a
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
If you're on a long-haul train, they perk up the parsley by dunking the
stem in soap flakes. That's definitely not part of the dish.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(Spouse of a former passenger train waitress)
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-06 20:55:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on
a bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
If you're on a long-haul train, they perk up the parsley by dunking the
stem in soap flakes.  That's definitely not part of the dish.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(Spouse of a former passenger train waitress)
The longest (UK) train journey would probably be Penzance to Inverness
(511 miles).
I don't think the parsley would have time to wilt too badly.

(I wonder who first discovered that trick?)
--
Sam Plusnet
Phil Hobbs
2020-02-06 22:12:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on
a bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order
a Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth,
do you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving
dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
If you're on a long-haul train, they perk up the parsley by dunking
the stem in soap flakes.  That's definitely not part of the dish.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
(Spouse of a former passenger train waitress)
The longest (UK) train journey would probably be Penzance to Inverness
(511 miles).
I don't think the parsley would have time to wilt too badly.
(I wonder who first discovered that trick?)
The train from Vancouver to Halifax takes about four days. I don't
think she went further than Montreal.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 17:23:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:31:08 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified?
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad?  Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Finding lettuce in a Waldorf salad recipe is about as probable as
finding a recipe for vegetable soup with oysters.
Ah, some very fine shades of meaning concealed here, hinging on the
words 'in' and 'on'.  The recipes which say "traditionally served on
a
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Katy Jennison
bed of lettuce" need to be carefully deconstructed.  If you order a
Waldorf salad, and it comes to you in a dish, with lettuce leaves
underneath the celery and apple and walnuts and mayo and so forth, do
you eat the lettuce leaves or count them as part of the serving dish?
One false step, and we will end up trying to determine when garnish
stops being decoration and becomes part of the dish.
Top tip: do not attempt to eat the plate. even if it looks like a leaf.
Call me unadventurous. The people selling e.g. Chicken in a Basket seem
to require the Basket back for the next suck^w customer.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-06 10:31:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
I'd have phrased in Balham (Gateway to the South) style;
"sorry luv, waldorf's orf".


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Adam Funk
2020-02-07 10:00:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
I'd have phrased in Balham (Gateway to the South) style;
"sorry luv, waldorf's orf".
http://youtu.be/6ewUOSlRDkk
Never seen that before; I was thinking of Fawlty Towers.
--
so ladies, fish, and gentlemen,
here's my angled dream
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 17:27:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified?
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
I'd have phrased in Balham (Gateway to the South) style;
"sorry luv, waldorf's orf".
http://youtu.be/6ewUOSlRDkk
Never seen that before; I was thinking of Fawlty Towers.
It wasn't even what I unforgot; maybe I've conflated it with other
"unavailable-menu-item" sketches (Not cheese, I recall that one
vividly).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2020-02-07 19:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified?
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other
salady
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are
the
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
I'd have phrased in Balham (Gateway to the South) style;
"sorry luv, waldorf's orf".
http://youtu.be/6ewUOSlRDkk
Never seen that before; I was thinking of Fawlty Towers.
It wasn't even what I unforgot; maybe I've conflated it with other
"unavailable-menu-item" sketches (Not cheese, I recall that one
vividly).
The 'original' is here



but the "Tea's off Dear" bit is some 4 minutes in.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-02-07 21:32:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 3:34:56 PM UTC-5, Garrett
Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise)
classified?
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Garrett Wollman
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other
salady
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are
the
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Moylan
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
I'd have phrased in Balham (Gateway to the South) style;
"sorry luv, waldorf's orf".
http://youtu.be/6ewUOSlRDkk
Never seen that before; I was thinking of Fawlty Towers.
It wasn't even what I unforgot; maybe I've conflated it with other
"unavailable-menu-item" sketches (Not cheese, I recall that one
vividly).
The 'original' is here
http://youtu.be/8RTWk9QIKS0
but the "Tea's off Dear" bit is some 4 minutes in.
Nah, the quote there is "no tea"
http://youtu.be/8RTWk9QIKS0

maybe^wclearly I mis-remembered it.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Mack A. Damia
2020-02-06 16:37:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
"I'm sorry, we're all out of waldorfs."
Wire Palatinate
Rhineland
Quinn C
2020-02-06 18:19:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Statlers being optional?
--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey
Tony Cooper
2020-02-06 18:45:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:19:41 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 13:30:32 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[in re fruit salad]
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Adam Funk
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Disgusting?
That was a rather biased description! It's lettuce, and other salady
things, and walnuts and/or pecans, and maybe some raisins.
Lettuce in Waldorf Salad? Raisins, yes, but lettuce?
There's more than one recipe. The only compulsory ingredients are the
waldorfs.
Statlers being optional?
Howard's johnson should not be exposed.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk
2020-02-06 09:32:38 UTC
Reply
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Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say it's a
fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit salad. So I guess
I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R), sweet
corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other botanical-only
fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Sounds good to me too, but I wouldn't call it "fruit salad," even though
all the ingredients are fruits (they are also vegetables.)
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?

And celery.
I don't think I'd call it a fruit salad, but people are allowed to
disagree with me, in this one case.
Well, if anything deserves to be called a "mixed salad"...
--
You're 100 percent correct -- it's been scientifically proven that
microwaving changes the molecular structure of food. THIS IS CALLED
COOKING, YOU NITWIT. ---Cecil Adams
charles
2020-02-06 10:49:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by occam
A chef would say a tomato is a vegetable. A botanist would say
it's a fruit. I'd have it in my salad, but not in my fruit
salad. So I guess I'm a chef at heart.
Perhaps a chef with some creativity to his name would be happy to
include a tomato in a fruit dish....
Actually, a "fruit salad" of tomatoes, bell peppers (sorry, R),
sweet corn, roasted eggplant, snow peas, and maybe other
botanical-only fruits sounds pretty good. Dill seeds?
Sounds good to me too, but I wouldn't call it "fruit salad," even
though all the ingredients are fruits (they are also vegetables.)
How is Waldorf salad (sweet fruit, nuts, mayonnaise) classified?
Œ
And celery.
I don't think I'd call it a fruit salad, but people are allowed to
disagree with me, in this one case.
Well, if anything deserves to be called a "mixed salad"...
but it wasn't created at the "Mixed" Hotel.
Post by Adam Funk
--
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-04 18:33:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Culinarily, sweet corn is a vegetable.

Botanically, corn and maybe all grains appear to be a kind of fruit
called a caryopsis, in which the "flesh" (pericarp) is merged with
the seed coat. I didn't know that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryopsis
Post by occam
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
Might be entertaining, but I'd say that culinarily corn is not a fruit.
--
Jerry Friedman
Janet
2020-02-05 17:09:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryopsis

Janet
Jerry Friedman
2020-02-05 19:02:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by occam
I was flabbergasted when I found the answer to the question "is corn a
vegetable, fruit or grain' is: 'all three' (Wiki).
The definition of a fruit is fruit is 'when the flesh surrounds the
seeds'. This is why courgettes and cherries are considered 'fruit'. But
corn? Surely corn is classic grain. Not vegetable, and certainly not fruit.
Would you entertain corn in your fruit salad?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryopsis
"Caryopsis has set in."
--
Jerry Friedman
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