Discussion:
James Joyce was a British novelist. --- No Off-Topic chatter
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Hen Hanna
2019-01-18 03:36:49 UTC
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re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)

James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because his novels were in English.


[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more incorrect today.


0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?

1. In standard American English today [A] is incorrect, right?

2. Today, is there a difference between how Americans and Brits use these terms? --- English, British, etc.


HH
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Mark Brader
2019-01-18 03:52:43 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
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Interesting capitalization.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "WARNING: Pastry may be *hot* when heated."
***@vex.net -- [alleged] Kellogg Pop-Tarts box
Madhu
2019-01-18 04:07:05 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
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I expect "chatter" is a singular noun.
Jack
2019-01-18 05:27:47 UTC
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Post by Madhu
Post by Hen Hanna
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I expect "chatter" is a singular noun.
Actually, it's pretty common.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-18 07:18:04 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hen Hanna
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Interesting capitalization.
I expect she learned her capitalization at the feet of Mr Trump.
--
athel
soup
2019-01-19 11:27:10 UTC
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Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British



Neither English nor British he was Irish . The free state is not even
in the UK (well not since 1922) never mind Britain and certainly not
England.

'James Joyce was a novelist in English'. correct but sounds very stilted
'James Joyce was an Irish novelist who wrote in English'. Sounds better
(to my ears anyway)



Scotland, England , Wales = Great Britain
Scotland, England , Wales, Northern Ireland = The United kingdom.

There are various crown dependencies, overseas territories etc
but just dealing with the main countries is probably deep enough
knowledge for most people
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 13:25:25 UTC
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Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because
his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds
more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Neither English nor British he was Irish . The free state is not even
in the UK (well not since 1922) never mind Britain and certainly not
England.
'James Joyce was a novelist in English'. correct but sounds very stilted
'James Joyce was an Irish novelist who wrote in English'. Sounds better
(to my ears anyway)
Scotland, England , Wales = Great Britain
Scotland, England , Wales, Northern Ireland = The United kingdom.
There are various crown dependencies, overseas territories etc
but just dealing with the main countries is probably deep enough
knowledge for most people
That is already much too deep for the hen.
--
athel
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-01-19 16:27:41 UTC
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Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
As said in this Irish newspaper:
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-29209240.html

Joyce held a British passport. He felt "ambivalence about England",
Bowker comments, but "after the creation of the Irish Free State
resisted blandishments. . . to replace his British passport with an
Irish one".

From an article in The Scotsman on possible Scottish independence:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097

James Joyce kept his British passport following the foundation of
the Irish Free State in 1922. His latest biographer revealed how, in
April 1930, when he was required to renew his British passport,
Joyce popped along to the British Embassy in Paris (where he was
living at the time) and was told by a clerk that he should go to the
Irish legation. He resisted and had his passport renewed.

Widely denounced in his beloved Dublin for writing “dirty bukes”,
Joyce regarded Eire as a cultural backwater controlled by the
Catholic clergy and their zealous artistic censors. He hated crude
attempts to resuscitate the Irish language, believing that English
had been his passport to a wider world of literature. Until the day
he died the author of Ulysses remained a defiant citizen of the
Republic of Letters.

Read more at:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 18:12:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because
his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds
more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-29209240.html
Joyce held a British passport. He felt "ambivalence about England",
Bowker comments, but "after the creation of the Irish Free State
resisted blandishments. . . to replace his British passport with an
Irish one".
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
James Joyce kept his British passport following the foundation of
the Irish Free State in 1922. His latest biographer revealed how, in
April 1930, when he was required to renew his British passport,
Joyce popped along to the British Embassy in Paris (where he was
living at the time) and was told by a clerk that he should go to the
Irish legation. He resisted and had his passport renewed.
Widely denounced in his beloved Dublin for writing “dirty bukes”,
Joyce regarded Eire as a cultural backwater controlled by the
Catholic clergy and their zealous artistic censors. He hated crude
attempts to resuscitate the Irish language, believing that English
had been his passport to a wider world of literature. Until the day
he died the author of Ulysses remained a defiant citizen of the
Republic of Letters.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
Thanks for this detail. That's what I suspected.
--
athel
soup
2019-01-19 18:47:47 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-29209240.html
Joyce held a British passport. He felt "ambivalence about England",
Bowker comments, but "after the creation of the Irish Free State
resisted blandishments. . . to replace his British passport with an
Irish one".
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
James Joyce kept his British passport following the foundation of
the Irish Free State in 1922. His latest biographer revealed how, in
April 1930, when he was required to renew his British passport,
Joyce popped along to the British Embassy in Paris (where he was
living at the time) and was told by a clerk that he should go to the
Irish legation. He resisted and had his passport renewed.
Widely denounced in his beloved Dublin for writing “dirty bukes”,
Joyce regarded Eire as a cultural backwater controlled by the
Catholic clergy and their zealous artistic censors. He hated crude
attempts to resuscitate the Irish language, believing that English
had been his passport to a wider world of literature. Until the day
he died the author of Ulysses remained a defiant citizen of the
Republic of Letters.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
Which raises the question. (Was going to put 'begs the question' but
that is rather unacceptable in here for 'raises the question')

Are we what we consider ourselves?
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 19:58:21 UTC
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Post by soup
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
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?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because
his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds
more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-29209240.html
Joyce held a British passport. He felt "ambivalence about England",
Bowker comments, but "after the creation of the Irish Free State
resisted blandishments. . . to replace his British passport with an
Irish one".
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
James Joyce kept his British passport following the foundation of
the Irish Free State in 1922. His latest biographer revealed how, in
April 1930, when he was required to renew his British passport,
Joyce popped along to the British Embassy in Paris (where he was
living at the time) and was told by a clerk that he should go to the
Irish legation. He resisted and had his passport renewed.
Widely denounced in his beloved Dublin for writing “dirty bukes”,
Joyce regarded Eire as a cultural backwater controlled by the
Catholic clergy and their zealous artistic censors. He hated crude
attempts to resuscitate the Irish language, believing that English
had been his passport to a wider world of literature. Until the day
he died the author of Ulysses remained a defiant citizen of the
Republic of Letters.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-passport-to-success-1-2313097
Which raises the question. (Was going to put 'begs the question' but
that is rather unacceptable in here for 'raises the question')
Are we what we consider ourselves?
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves another.
Or, like one of our regular posters here, are not quite sure.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-19 21:28:11 UTC
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Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 21:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-01-19 21:51:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
Wouldn't be a problem if that's what had been written.

I bet the same person also regularly writes "eg."
Tony Cooper
2019-01-19 23:10:59 UTC
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On Sat, 19 Jan 2019 13:51:00 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
Wouldn't be a problem if that's what had been written.
I bet the same person also regularly writes "eg."
And the person who makes a big deal about it is the person who squeals
about being corrected for a "nit" and his substantive comment is
ignored when the "nit" is a major error.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-20 06:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
Wouldn't be a problem if that's what had been written.
Yes, but you were pretending not to know what "C.F. Transgender people" meant.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I bet the same person also regularly writes "eg."
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-01-20 11:13:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 20 Jan 2019 06:44:47 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
On Saturday, January 19, 2019 at 4:41:43 PM UTC-5, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider
themselves another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
Wouldn't be a problem if that's what had been written.
Yes, but you were pretending not to know what "C.F. Transgender people" meant.
TWEOTS, as usual
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I bet the same person also regularly writes "eg."
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
soup
2019-01-20 10:51:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
Wouldn't be a problem if that's what had been written.
I bet the same person also regularly writes "eg."
Not really sure I have ever thought about it.

OK(is OK OK or should it be O.K. for Orl Korrect as in some explanations
of origin) I am more than willing to be corrected; cf. it is, e.g. it is.
RHDraney
2019-01-19 22:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by soup
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
Who's C. F. Transgender?
Come on: you must know cf. = compare
That, yes, but are there people who think C.F. is an abbreviation of
some two-word phrase?...r
John Ritson
2019-01-19 22:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hen Hanna
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
--- No Off-Topic chatter
--- No Off-Topic chatter
--- No Off-Topic chatter
?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because
his novels were in English.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more
incorrect today.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct,
right?
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-
29209240.html
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Joyce held a British passport. He felt "ambivalence about England",
Bowker comments, but "after the creation of the Irish Free State
resisted blandishments. . . to replace his British passport with an
Irish one".
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-
passport-to-success-1-2313097
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
James Joyce kept his British passport following the foundation of
the Irish Free State in 1922. His latest biographer revealed how, in
April 1930, when he was required to renew his British passport,
Joyce popped along to the British Embassy in Paris (where he was
living at the time) and was told by a clerk that he should go to the
Irish legation. He resisted and had his passport renewed.
Widely denounced in his beloved Dublin for writing “dirty bukes”,
Joyce regarded Eire as a cultural backwater controlled by the
Catholic clergy and their zealous artistic censors. He hated crude
attempts to resuscitate the Irish language, believing that English
had been his passport to a wider world of literature. Until the day
he died the author of Ulysses remained a defiant citizen of the
Republic of Letters.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/rob-brown-why-independence-is-no-
passport-to-success-1-2313097
Which raises the question. (Was going to put 'begs the question' but
that is rather unacceptable in here for 'raises the question')
Are we what we consider ourselves?
He was factually Irish but he considered himself British .
C.F. Transgender people who are born one sex but consider themselves
another.
The Duke of Wellington was born in Ireland, but said that no more made
him Irish than being born in a stable would make him a horse.
--
John Ritson

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Hen Hanna
2019-01-24 22:12:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by soup
Post by Hen Hanna
--- No Off-Topic chatter
--- No Off-Topic chatter
--- No Off-Topic chatter
?????????
Post by Hen Hanna
re: James Joyce (author of Ulysses)
James Joyce was an English novelist. <-- this could be correct, because his novels were in English.
[A] James Joyce was a British novelist. <-- in Am.English, this sounds more incorrect today.
0. The way the word [British] was used 100 years ago, [A] was correct, right?
Nope was never right, he was not British
Sorry, but that was not the case.
https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/uncovering-joyces-links-with-england-29209240.html
this thread is about the meanings of
the words [British], and [English].


Was it common knowledge (common sense) to you that
100 years ago:

English meant England
British meant all of the British isles ?

HH

Quinn C
2019-01-22 04:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Nobody reads Joyce for joy.
--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945
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