Discussion:
Horny-handed sons...
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LFS
2008-06-04 14:04:31 UTC
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..of what? Toil? Or soil?

I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.

Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Roland Hutchinson
2008-06-04 14:07:20 UTC
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Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
If you're taking a vote (we seem to be obsessing with that sort of thing
over here just now), put me down firmly in the "toil" column.

I would have to be "...of _the_ soil" if it were soil, to my ear.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
LFS
2008-06-04 14:10:35 UTC
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Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
If you're taking a vote (we seem to be obsessing with that sort of thing
over here just now), put me down firmly in the "toil" column.
I would have to be "...of _the_ soil" if it were soil, to my ear.
Yes, I should have been more accurate: the version I'm familiar with
includes "the", although there seem to be quite a few examples on Google
that don't.

I'm rather more interested in finding out where the phrase originated
and how it might have drifted than in votes.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mike Page
2008-06-04 20:52:14 UTC
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Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
If you're taking a vote (we seem to be obsessing with that sort of thing
over here just now), put me down firmly in the "toil" column.
I would have to be "...of _the_ soil" if it were soil, to my ear.
Yes, I should have been more accurate: the version I'm familiar with
includes "the", although there seem to be quite a few examples on Google
that don't.
I'm rather more interested in finding out where the phrase originated
and how it might have drifted than in votes.
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
--
Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.
John Dean
2008-06-04 23:49:28 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Mike Page
Post by LFS
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that
"toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find
the source of the phrase. Comments?
If you're taking a vote (we seem to be obsessing with that sort of
thing over here just now), put me down firmly in the "toil" column.
I would have to be "...of _the_ soil" if it were soil, to my ear.
Yes, I should have been more accurate: the version I'm familiar with
includes "the", although there seem to be quite a few examples on
Google that don't.
I'm rather more interested in finding out where the phrase originated
and how it might have drifted than in votes.
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Ox Dic of Quot has Salisbury in the Quarterly Review of September 1873 and a
note that it was "later popularised in the US by Denis Kearney". But it also
directs the reader to James Russell Lowell in 1844 who wrote "Blessed are
the horny hands of toil!".

I've always heard "horny handed sons of toil" but I can see how the
variations might arise.
--
John Dean
Oxford
K. Edgcombe
2008-06-05 08:40:31 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.

Katy
LFS
2008-06-05 10:16:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
The more I think about it, the odder the toil version seems to me. How
can you have a son of toil? Things grow in soil, after all.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
K. Edgcombe
2008-06-05 11:38:42 UTC
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Post by LFS
Post by K. Edgcombe
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
The more I think about it, the odder the toil version seems to me. How
can you have a son of toil? Things grow in soil, after all.
I agree that you can have a son of the soil (I mean. not you personally....);
but "horny-handed" has always gone with "toil", for me. And I read it as "born
to labour" as in "born to trouble as the sparks fly upward".

Katy
Amethyst Deceiver
2008-06-05 13:21:57 UTC
Reply
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Post by LFS
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
The more I think about it, the odder the toil version seems to me. How
can you have a son of toil? Things grow in soil, after all.
How can you have a mother of invention?
I've always heard "sons of toil". It's the toil that makes them horny-
handed - all that digging or hefting or chopping or whatever.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
Roland Hutchinson
2008-06-05 14:34:45 UTC
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Post by Amethyst Deceiver
Post by LFS
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
The more I think about it, the odder the toil version seems to me. How
can you have a son of toil? Things grow in soil, after all.
How can you have a mother of invention?
I've always heard "sons of toil". It's the toil that makes them horny-
handed - all that digging or hefting or chopping or whatever.
Metonymy, innit. (If yer dad were a laborer, you are son of toil.)

Or maybe metaphor. (If you are a worker, your wages serve in place of the
patrimony that makes life comfortable for the idle.)
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2008-06-05 16:40:02 UTC
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Post by Amethyst Deceiver
Post by LFS
The more I think about it, the odder the toil version seems to
me. How can you have a son of toil? Things grow in soil, after all.
How can you have a mother of invention?
I've always heard "sons of toil". It's the toil that makes them
horny- handed - all that digging or hefting or chopping or whatever.
"Sons of toil" appears to pre-date "horny-handed". I see

One nation, horny-handed and strong hearted

_Punch_, 1850

but almost a century earlier:

To Battle let your Nobles lead
The sons of Toil, a hardy band;
The sword on each rough Peasant's thigh be worn,
And Wars green wreaths the Shepherd's front adorn.

_Monthly Catalogue_, December, 1756

I first see "horny-handed sons of toil" in 1877, but "hard-handed sons
of toil" shows up in 1859. ("Hard-handed sons of labour" shows up in
1858.) "Hard-handed" itself shows up in Shakespeare:

Hard-handed men that work in Athens here,
Which never labor'd in their minds till now,

_A Midsummer Night's Dream_, V.i.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If we have to re-invent the wheel,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can we at least make it round this
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time?

***@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
R H Draney
2008-06-05 15:48:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
Probably influenced by the spoonerism of the original (1140 Google hits for
"tons of soil" +spooner)....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Robert Lieblich
2008-06-05 22:12:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
--
Bob Lieblich, AmEclectic
Thinging deep things
LaReina del Perros
2008-06-06 03:03:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the Oxford
Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil form was
coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that may be
earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple error.
But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Barbara Bailey
2008-06-06 03:33:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil
form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that
may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not "honing" --
that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or polish, as a
presentation or a speech. I know that the latest American Heritage
dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but they are the only ones I
could fine that do so, and they are notoriously quick to list incorrect
usages just because they're common.
Skitt
2008-06-06 03:41:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil
form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation
that may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not
"honing" -- that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or
polish, as a presentation or a speech. I know that the latest
American Heritage dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but
they are the only ones I could fine that do so, and they are
notoriously quick to list incorrect usages just because they're
common.
Methinks, that was all on porpoise, starting with the "another thing
coming".
--
Skitt (AmE)
Barbara Bailey
2008-06-06 03:53:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
Post by Robert Lieblich
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not
"honing" -- that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or
polish, as a presentation or a speech. I know that the latest
American Heritage dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but
they are the only ones I could fine that do so, and they are
notoriously quick to list incorrect usages just because they're
common.
Methinks, that was all on porpoise, starting with the "another thing
coming".
Probably. But my wrong-word-tolerance was all used up after a day of
reading things elsewhere that were filled with "honing in on"s and "free
reign"s and "wreckless"s and "alterior motive"s -- stuff that supposedly
had been edited by someone getting paid for the job, and I just snapped.

I think I need some ice cream...
CDB
2008-06-06 15:33:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by Skitt
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
Post by Robert Lieblich
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not
"honing" -- that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve,
or polish, as a presentation or a speech. I know that the latest
American Heritage dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on,"
but *they are the only ones I could fine that do so*, (1) and they
are
notoriously quick to list incorrect usages just because they're
common.
Methinks, that was all on porpoise, starting with the "another
thing coming".
Probably. But my wrong-word-tolerance was all used up after a day of
reading things elsewhere that were filled with "honing in on"s and
"free reign"s and "wreckless"s and "alterior motive"s -- stuff that
supposedly had been edited by someone getting paid for the job, and
I just snapped.
I think I need some ice cream...
(1) Ever so there. You'll feel better after you've amearsed the AHD.
(my bold)
tony cooper
2008-06-06 04:04:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:33:57 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil
form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that
may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not "honing" --
that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or polish, as a
presentation or a speech. I know that the latest American Heritage
dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but they are the only ones I
could fine that do so, and they are notoriously quick to list incorrect
usages just because they're common.
I think Barbara didn't bored the boat on time.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
LaReina del Perros
2008-06-06 05:12:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:04:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:33:57 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil
form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that
may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not "honing" --
that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or polish, as a
presentation or a speech. I know that the latest American Heritage
dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but they are the only ones I
could fine that do so, and they are notoriously quick to list incorrect
usages just because they're common.
I think Barbara didn't bored the boat on time.
Bare with her. She's had a hard day.
tony cooper
2008-06-06 05:35:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:12:53 -0700, LaReina del Perros
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:04:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:33:57 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the toil
form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a quotation that
may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed the
"soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a simple
error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not "honing" --
that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve, or polish, as a
presentation or a speech. I know that the latest American Heritage
dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on," but they are the only ones I
could fine that do so, and they are notoriously quick to list incorrect
usages just because they're common.
I think Barbara didn't bored the boat on time.
Bare with her. She's had a hard day.
A long daze knight?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mike Lyle
2008-06-06 15:31:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:12:53 -0700, LaReina del Perros
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:04:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:33:57 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the
toil form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a
quotation that may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed
the "soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a
simple error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not
"honing" -- that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve,
or polish, as a presentation or a speech. I know that the latest
American Heritage dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on,"
but they are the only ones I could fine that do so, and they are
notoriously quick to list incorrect usages just because they're
common.
I think Barbara didn't bored the boat on time.
Bare with her. She's had a hard day.
A long daze knight?
That'd be Mark Thatcher (except he's a bart not a k: but, hey! this is
pun territory).
--
Mike.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Robin Bignall
2008-06-06 21:17:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 16:31:41 +0100, "Mike Lyle"
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:12:53 -0700, LaReina del Perros
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:04:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:33:57 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LaReina del Perros
On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:12:17 -0400, Robert Lieblich
Post by Robert Lieblich
Post by K. Edgcombe
Post by Mike Page
'the soil' for me. But I see google books has an entry from the
Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable that seems to say the
toil form was coined by Lord Salisbury (1830-1903), and a
quotation that may be earlier from 'Notes and Queries'.
Interesting. I have always heard "toil" and would have assumed
the "soil" version - which I'd never heard until now - to be a
simple error. But evidently, if it is, it's quite widespread.
I guess you have another thing coming, Katy.
I think we're honing in on a definitive answer.
Arrgh! Please, you are *homing* in on a definitive answer. Not
"honing" -- that means to sharpen a blade or to develop, improve,
or polish, as a presentation or a speech. I know that the latest
American Heritage dictionary lists the verb phrase "hone in on,"
but they are the only ones I could fine that do so, and they are
notoriously quick to list incorrect usages just because they're
common.
I think Barbara didn't bored the boat on time.
Bare with her. She's had a hard day.
A long daze knight?
That'd be Mark Thatcher (except he's a bart not a k: but, hey! this is
pun territory).
He got his just deserts.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
Mike M
2008-06-04 14:16:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
If you're taking a vote (we seem to be obsessing with that sort of thing
over here just now), put me down firmly in the "toil" column.
I would have to be "...of _the_ soil" if it were soil, to my ear.
I've only ever heard it in the singular "(He was a) horny-handed son
of the soil".

Mike M
HVS
2008-06-04 14:13:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004
while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil", according to Oxford quotations.

(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in San
Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis Kearney
was.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
LFS
2008-06-04 14:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004
while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil", according to Oxford quotations.
(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in San
Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis Kearney
was.)
He seems to have been a Californian politician who hated the Chinese.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
2008-06-04 14:18:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in
2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil", according to Oxford quotations.
(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in
San Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis
Kearney was.)
He seems to have been a Californian politician who hated the
Chinese.
Ah, so.

(FWIW, the quotation -- otherwise completely without context -- is
in my Oxford DOQ, 1941 ed.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Mike Lyle
2008-06-04 16:35:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in
2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil", according to Oxford quotations.
(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in
San Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis
Kearney was.)
He seems to have been a Californian politician who hated the
Chinese.
Ah, so.
(FWIW, the quotation -- otherwise completely without context -- is
in my Oxford DOQ, 1941 ed.)
In a book involving the Empress of Blandings--/Heavy Weather/?-- Gally
says to a muck-plastered Lord Tilbury, (from my defective memory)
"...you look like one of those 'sons of toil buried by tons of soil' I
once read about in a newspaper headline."

I, too, would expect the definite article with "son of the soil". I
think "soil" probably represents the older version, as it's not far from
a Greek original. OED gives "1871 FREEMAN Norm. Conq. (1876) IV. 55 The
foreign spoiler..insensibly changed into the Son of the soil, into an
Englishman." Note that there it means a native, rather than a farm
worker.
--
Mike.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2008-06-07 14:03:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[ ... ]
(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in San
Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis Kearney was.)
He seems to have been a Californian politician who hated the Chinese.
I was going to say that he had a street in San Francisco named after
him (where one of my daughters once lived), but Wikipedia says that
that was a different person, called Kearny.
--
athel
John Dean
2008-06-05 00:01:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004
while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil", according to Oxford quotations.
(Attributed to Denis Kearney (1847-1907) in a c.1878 speech in San
Francisco. No, I don't have the foggiest idea who Denis Kearney
was.)
OED's earliest is 1873:
" 1873 Q. Rev. CXXXV. 543 The peculiar virtues of the horny-handed sons of
toil received a severe shock in 1848, and finally collapsed in 1871. "

Kearney was an Irish immigrant to the USA who disapproved of Chinese
immigrants to the same place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Kearney
--
John Dean
Oxford
Donna Richoux
2008-06-04 14:27:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
I never heard of it at all. "Horny-handed sons of toil" turns up in a
1919 book at Bartleby, without attribution. So I moved on to Google
Books; there the Yale Book of Quotations gives it to Robert (long name)
Cecil, Marquis of Salisbury, British prime minister, in the Quarterly
Review, 1873.

http://books.google.com/books?id=w5-GR-qtgXsC&pg=PA662&dq=%22horny-hande
d+sons+of+toil%22&as_brr=3&sig=oe-zhlkAgzbWk2nToKfYiiu_3tY
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Richard Maurer
2008-06-04 19:04:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Donna Richoux wrote:
I never heard of it at all. "Horny-handed sons of toil"
turns up in a 1919 book at Bartleby, without attribution.
So I moved on to Google Books; there the Yale Book
of Quotations gives it to Robert (long name) Cecil,
Marquis of Salisbury, British prime minister,
in the Quarterly Review, 1873.


Maybe it is a revival.

It appears in a 1922 translation by W. C. Firebaugh
of _The Satyricon_ by the ancient Roman
Gaius Petronius Arbiter.

Horny-handed sons of toil are born under Capricorn.
Bartenders and pumpkin-heads are born under
the Water-Carrier.

Maybe the same English was used in an earlier translation
in the mid 1800s. Our Latin readers might tell us if that
is a literal translation.

Project Gutenberg
Title: The Satyricon, Vol. 2 (The Dinner of Trimalchio)
Complete and unexpurgated translation by W. C. Firebaugh,
Chapter The Thirty-Ninth.
www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219.txt
CDB
2008-06-04 20:10:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
I never heard of it at all. "Horny-handed sons of toil"
turns up in a 1919 book at Bartleby, without attribution.
So I moved on to Google Books; there the Yale Book
of Quotations gives it to Robert (long name) Cecil,
Marquis of Salisbury, British prime minister,
in the Quarterly Review, 1873.
Maybe it is a revival.
It appears in a 1922 translation by W. C. Firebaugh
of _The Satyricon_ by the ancient Roman
Gaius Petronius Arbiter.
Horny-handed sons of toil are born under Capricorn.
Bartenders and pumpkin-heads are born under
the Water-Carrier.
Maybe the same English was used in an earlier translation
in the mid 1800s. Our Latin readers might tell us if that
is a literal translation.
Project Gutenberg
Title: The Satyricon, Vol. 2 (The Dinner of Trimalchio)
Complete and unexpurgated translation by W. C. Firebaugh,
Chapter The Thirty-Ninth.
www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219.txt
Looks more as if a familiar phrase was used by the translator. The
original I found is "in capricorno aerumnosi, quibus prae mala sua
cornua nascuntur;". "Sons of toil" would cover "aerumnosi", from
"aerumna", hard labour. The rest is funny stuff, and I suspect
Petronius was having a laugh about something: "before whom [go] their
wicked horns, are born"? I predict that a better person than I will
come along soon and explain the phrase, which is near the end of
chapter 39 at the URL below.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/petronius1.html
CDB
2008-06-04 21:22:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[Satyricon]
Horny-handed sons of toil are born under Capricorn. [...]
"in capricorno aerumnosi, quibus prae mala sua cornua nascuntur;".
"before whom [go] their wicked horns, are born"?
I predict that a better person than
I will come along soon and explain the phrase, [...]
I am not him whom ye seek, but I've been thinking about the word-order
around "prae", which really doesn't let it govern "quibus". I suppose
if "mala" is a singular noun meaning "jawbone" instead of a plural
adjective meaning "bad", the phrase could be "to whom before their jaw
[come] horns": whose horns come before their jaw.

The problem with the verb "nascuntur" is that it pretty well has to go
with the subject "aerumnosi", so it can't be "horns are born". And
why "mala" in the singular? The only relevant example in my
dictionary is plural. Alternatively, if "prae" is an adverb, "to whom
first [come] their wicked horns".

Anyway, look, no hands.
Mike Lyle
2008-06-04 22:09:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...]
Post by CDB
Post by Richard Maurer
Project Gutenberg
Title: The Satyricon, Vol. 2 (The Dinner of Trimalchio)
Complete and unexpurgated translation by W. C. Firebaugh,
Chapter The Thirty-Ninth.
www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219.txt
Looks more as if a familiar phrase was used by the translator. The
original I found is "in capricorno aerumnosi, quibus prae mala sua
cornua nascuntur;". "Sons of toil" would cover "aerumnosi", from
"aerumna", hard labour. The rest is funny stuff, and I suspect
Petronius was having a laugh about something: "before whom [go] their
wicked horns, are born"? I predict that a better person than I will
come along soon and explain the phrase, which is near the end of
chapter 39 at the URL below.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/petronius1.html
We already knew me for a man no better, but in most respects worse, than
CDB; but in any case if there's a gag in there I don't get it. Petronius
was fond of the irregular accusative after /prae/, but that doesn't help
me to understand what he's saying about these unlucky drudges. We can
presumably take /cornu/ as emblematic of goatish sexuality, of course.
(Though the word has many meanings and associations.)
--
Mike.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
CDB
2008-06-05 17:03:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...]
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by CDB
Post by Richard Maurer
Project Gutenberg
Title: The Satyricon, Vol. 2 (The Dinner of Trimalchio)
Complete and unexpurgated translation by W. C. Firebaugh,
Chapter The Thirty-Ninth.
www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219.txt
Looks more as if a familiar phrase was used by the translator. The
original I found is "in capricorno aerumnosi, quibus prae mala sua
cornua nascuntur;". "Sons of toil" would cover "aerumnosi", from
"aerumna", hard labour. The rest is funny stuff, and I suspect
Petronius was having a laugh about something: "before whom [go]
their wicked horns, are born"? I predict that a better person
than I will come along soon and explain the phrase, which is near
the end of chapter 39 at the URL below.
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/petronius1.html
We already knew me for a man no better, but in most respects worse,
than CDB; but in any case if there's a gag in there I don't get it.
I can do anything worser than you. I don't get it either, but the
text seems full of arch references, and I supposed that this was
another such.
Post by Mike Lyle
Petronius was fond of the irregular accusative after /prae/,
Was he, damn him. That wasn't in my dictionary. Time for a new one,
maybe. Even so, what does that make "quibus" relate to? I'm
beginning to think "prae" may indeed be an adverb (that's in even my
dictionary). To whom beforehand evil horns. Whose ill-omened horns
precede them.
Post by Mike Lyle
but that doesn't help me to understand what he's saying about these
unlucky drudges. We can presumably take /cornu/ as emblematic of
goatish sexuality, of course. (Though the word has many meanings
and associations.)
Wiki (shudder) says that horns as a sign of cuckoldry date back to the
Roman Empire. Hard luck, as you say, but somebody must have thought
there was a connection with the noun. Maybe the labourer's wife was
the butt of travelling salesman jokes in those days , or maybe he
means someone in particular (an Agricola? a Servius? some
fellow-aristocrat with a reputation for hard work?).

Another translation has "under Capricorn, poor helpless rascals, to
whom yet Nature intended horns to defend themselves". No labour at
all. I noticed as well that, a little earlier in the feast (ch. 35),
when a zodiacal serving-dish was brought in, the item on Capricorn was
a lobster. So maybe the only sure thing here is that the English
phrase didn't originate with Petronius.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2008-06-04 22:03:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments?
I never heard of it at all. "Horny-handed sons of toil" turns up in
a 1919 book at Bartleby, without attribution. So I moved on to
Google Books; there the Yale Book of Quotations gives it to Robert
(long name) Cecil, Marquis of Salisbury, British prime minister, in
the Quarterly Review, 1873.
http://books.google.com/books?id=w5-GR-qtgXsC&pg=PA662&dq=%22horny-hande
d+sons+of+toil%22&as_brr=3&sig=oe-zhlkAgzbWk2nToKfYiiu_3tY
Without the "Horny-handed", I see "sons of toil" back to 1814:

If such they be--God help the while!
Where send the peaceful sons of toil,

Quoted in review of _The Lay of the Scottish Fiddle_, 1814,
in _Quarterly Review_, January, 1814

(Interesting rhyme there.)

Oh, wait. With a long "s":

Look back on ev'ry deathless deed
For which your Sires recorded stand;
To Battle let your Nobles lead
The sons of Toil, a hardy band;
The sword on each rough Peasant's thigh be worn,
And Wars green wreaths the Shepherd's front adorn.

"The Genius of Britain", _The Monthly Catalogue_,
December, 1756
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit
|a piece of the moon to chemical
***@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure
(650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green
|cheese.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans
Barbara Bailey
2008-06-04 14:36:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil" seems to be more common on a Google book search; it has an entry for
_Brewer's Famous Quotations_ which attributes "horny-handed sons of toil"
to the third Marquess of Salisbury in _The Quarterly Review_ of October
1873. It also cites American poet J.R.Lowell as using "the horny hands of
toil" in the poem "A Glance Behind The Curtain", 1843.

Most of the hits on "soil" are really "horny-handed sons of *the* soil."
Wood Avens
2008-06-04 15:43:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:36:50 +0200 (CEST), Barbara Bailey
Post by Barbara Bailey
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
"Toil" seems to be more common on a Google book search; it has an entry for
_Brewer's Famous Quotations_ which attributes "horny-handed sons of toil"
to the third Marquess of Salisbury in _The Quarterly Review_ of October
1873. It also cites American poet J.R.Lowell as using "the horny hands of
toil" in the poem "A Glance Behind The Curtain", 1843.
Most of the hits on "soil" are really "horny-handed sons of *the* soil."
It has to be "sons of toil". Otherwise it wouldn't Spoonerise to
"tons of soil".
--
Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Mark Brader
2008-06-04 17:03:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Wankers, then? :-)
--
Mark Brader "I cannot reply in French, but I will
Toronto type English very slowly and loudly."
***@vex.net --Lars Eighner
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2008-06-04 23:31:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Wankers, then? :-)
Aren't they the "hairy-handed"?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ian Noble
2008-06-04 17:21:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:04:31 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
Give that one of the Revernd Spooner's oft-quoted manglings is "Noble
Tons of Soil", I'd suggest the former as more likely.

Cheers - Ian
Ian Noble
2008-06-04 18:58:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:21:38 +0100, Ian Noble
Post by Ian Noble
Give that one of the Revernd Spooner's
Ugh. Post in haste, repent at leisure. Spel chequers FTW.

Cheers - Ian
Paul Wolff
2008-06-08 15:53:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that
that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr
Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common
than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
1 I'm reading this four days late.

2 What I wrote in 2004 was "As a lad, in Berkshire, I noticed
(strongly enough to remember it to this day - and their graves are thick
with weeds now) local horny-handed-sons-of-the-soil types speaking ..."
and I detect an 'earth to earth' word association which I suspect was
more likely accident than planned.
--
Paul
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-09 21:38:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that
that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr
Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common
than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
1 I'm reading this four days late.
2 What I wrote in 2004 was "As a lad, in Berkshire, I noticed
(strongly enough to remember it to this day - and their graves are thick
with weeds now) local horny-handed-sons-of-the-soil types speaking ..."
and I detect an 'earth to earth' word association which I suspect was
more likely accident than planned.
What's four days in a lifetime?
Our new South African friend is reading it twelve years late,

Jan
t***@mweb.co.za
2020-01-10 05:35:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that
that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr
Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common
than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
1 I'm reading this four days late.
2 What I wrote in 2004 was "As a lad, in Berkshire, I noticed
(strongly enough to remember it to this day - and their graves are thick
with weeds now) local horny-handed-sons-of-the-soil types speaking ..."
and I detect an 'earth to earth' word association which I suspect was
more likely accident than planned.
What's four days in a lifetime?
Our new South African friend is reading it twelve years late,
Jan
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?

You might well have considered my father to be a horny-handed-son-of-the-soil type. A dairy farmer with a strong Wiltshire accent...
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-10 10:39:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that
that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr
Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common
than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
1 I'm reading this four days late.
2 What I wrote in 2004 was "As a lad, in Berkshire, I noticed
(strongly enough to remember it to this day - and their graves are thick
with weeds now) local horny-handed-sons-of-the-soil types speaking ..."
and I detect an 'earth to earth' word association which I suspect was
more likely accident than planned.
What's four days in a lifetime?
Our new South African friend is reading it twelve years late,
Jan
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?
Nothing to worry about. You are just a clueless google grouper
why didn't realise that he stubmled into a real usenet discussion
that was held twelve years ago.

But there is hope for you, for at least you look for replies.
(for most google groupers it is just a drive-by shot,
and they are never seen again)

What you can do about it is subscribe to alt.usage.english
and follow the -current- discussions.
(hint: it helps to get a real newsclient and a real newsserver)

You are no doubt welcome, if you have something to contribute,

Jan
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
You might well have considered my father to be a horny-handed-son-of-the-soil
type. A dairy farmer with a strong Wiltshire accent...
(another hint: you will be received more friendly if you get google to
wrap your lines to a decent length, 72 chacters for example
instead of letting others do it for you.)
Peter Moylan
2020-01-10 13:18:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?
Nothing to worry about. You are just a clueless google grouper why
didn't realise that he stubmled into a real usenet discussion that
was held twelve years ago.
But there is hope for you, for at least you look for replies. (for
most google groupers it is just a drive-by shot, and they are never
seen again)
Jan, you need to be a lot more polite than that. Yes, we have all been
annoyed by the drive-by posters who respond to a twenty-year-old thread
and then never appear again. But someone who DOES appear again is a lot
more respectable, and might even be talked into using a proper Usenet
client rather than GoogleCrap.
(another hint: you will be received more friendly if you get google
to wrap your lines to a decent length, 72 chacters for example
instead of letting others do it for you.)
A minor detail. A newcomer will sort that out in time.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-01-10 17:01:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...] you will be received more friendly if [...]
ObAUE: I have a strong urge to add another -ly there,
but can see that it would look terrible. Which is correct?

/Anders, Denmark.
Katy Jennison
2020-01-10 17:22:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
[...] you will be received more friendly if [...]
ObAUE: I have a strong urge to add another -ly there,
but can see that it would look terrible. Which is correct?
/Anders, Denmark.
'In a friendlier way' would actually be correct, but informally,
colloquially and humorously one might say (at least, I might say) 'more
friendlily'.
--
Katy Jennison
b***@shaw.ca
2020-01-10 19:20:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
[...] you will be received more friendly if [...]
ObAUE: I have a strong urge to add another -ly there,
but can see that it would look terrible. Which is correct?
I would write friendlily, and my spilling chucker approves.
Unless it was between quote marks, I'd always rewrite it
with the phrase "a friendlier reception..."

Come to think of it, I'd remove the quote marks
and rewrite it in any case.

bill
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 11:01:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that
"toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find
the source of the phrase.
Comments?
1 I'm reading this four days late.
2 What I wrote in 2004 was "As a lad, in Berkshire, I noticed
(strongly enough to remember it to this day - and their graves are
thick with weeds now) local horny-handed-sons-of-the-soil types
speaking ..." and I detect an 'earth to earth' word association
which I suspect was more likely accident than planned.
What's four days in a lifetime?
Our new South African friend is reading it twelve years late,
Jan
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?
You might well have considered my father to be a
horny-handed-son-of-the-soil type. A dairy farmer with a strong
Wiltshire accent...
horny hands? it's varicose ears you need to watch out for.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2020-01-10 20:45:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?
You might well have considered my father to be a horny-handed-son-of-the-soil type. A dairy farmer with a strong Wiltshire accent...
I hope, for the poor cows sake, his hands weren't too rough.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 21:27:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
What on earth (or toil) have I stumbled in to?
You might well have considered my father to be a
horny-handed-son-of-the-soil type. A dairy farmer with a strong
Wiltshire accent...
I hope, for the poor cows sake, his hands weren't too rough.
I've herd you can get down from a duck, but never about Sake from a cow.
Oh hold on, is it Milk Sake?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
t***@mweb.co.za
2020-01-09 19:18:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
CDB
2020-01-09 20:40:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments? -- Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
Makes their hands all rough and calloused. Horny, like. Gets them
soiled too, of course.
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-01-10 16:55:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments? -- Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
Makes their hands all rough and calloused.  Horny, like.  Gets them
soiled too, of course.
Horny hands? I get a very different connotation (which I do not intend
to spell out in a public forum like this).

/Anders, Denmark.
CDB
2020-01-10 20:40:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by CDB
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue
archives reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in
2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google
suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't
been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments? -- Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual
labour.
Makes their hands all rough and calloused. Horny, like. Gets
them soiled too, of course.
Horny hands? I get a very different connotation (which I do not
intend to spell out in a public forum like this).
Those were simpler times.
John Varela
2020-01-09 20:48:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
--
John Varela
t***@mweb.co.za
2020-01-09 20:56:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
--
John Varela
Ha! Fair enough.

When I was growing up, as the son of a farmer in England, 50 years ago, people commonly referred to ’toiling in the fields’
b***@shaw.ca
2020-01-09 22:51:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
It has been both verb and noun for a very long time. Shakespeare's
"Double, double toil and trouble" comes to mind for the noun usage.

bill
John Varela
2020-01-10 21:41:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
It has been both verb and noun for a very long time.
My mention of "12 years ago" had reference of the date of the
posting to which the OP was replying. This thread is the first time
that I can recall in which someone who responded to a zombie posting
has actually followed up, and good on 'im.

Shakespeare's
Post by b***@shaw.ca
"Double, double toil and trouble" comes to mind for the noun usage.
--
John Varela
RH Draney
2020-01-09 23:56:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and "tears"....

("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-10 01:04:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and "tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
"And if AUE lasts a thousand year, men will still say THIS was his
finest hour."
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 11:05:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
Did we already do the "I rule for all, I judge for all, I pray for all, I
toil for all" picture? (my googlefu is poor today).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
J. J. Lodder
2020-01-10 11:45:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
Did we already do the "I rule for all, I judge for all, I pray for all, I
toil for all" picture? (my googlefu is poor today).
We did the supposedly anti-semitic variant
with the bankers on top recently,

Jan
Peter Young
2020-01-10 13:26:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back
in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil"
is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find the
source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
Did we already do the "I rule for all, I judge for all, I pray for all, I
toil for all" picture? (my googlefu is poor today).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N07/9712153778

We have a pub of that name, and with a similar sign, in Cheltenham.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 21:20:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a
respected business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives
reveal that that Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while
back in 1997 Mr Goggin used the "toil" form. Google suggests that
"toil" is more common than "soil" but I haven't been able to find
the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
Did we already do the "I rule for all, I judge for all, I pray for
all, I toil for all" picture? (my googlefu is poor today).
We have a pub of that name, and with a similar sign, in Cheltenham.
Peter.
Here's another (dafty f.e. - why oh why do Pubcos fork out dosh for such
claptrap?)

https://thefiveallsfilkins.co.uk/#gallery-1

This gets us back to the low-level farm labo[u]rer "works for all"
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-10 15:00:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and "tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
--
Jerry Friedman
Anders D. Nygaard
2020-01-10 16:57:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
[...]
Post by RH Draney
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and "tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
Seconded - bravo!

/Anders, Denmark.
Sam Plusnet
2020-01-10 20:43:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by John Varela
Post by t***@mweb.co.za
Post by LFS
..of what? Toil? Or soil?
I'd always heard "soil" but have just read an article by a respected
business journalist which uses "toil". The aue archives reveal that that
Mr Wolff used "soil" in a post in 2004 while back in 1997 Mr Goggin used
the "toil" form. Google suggests that "toil" is more common than "soil"
but I haven't been able to find the source of the phrase.
Comments?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Toil is a verb,it means 'to work', specifically for manual labour.
"Toil" was a noun 12 years ago and it's a noun yet today.
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and "tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
What's a lighter got to do with it?
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 21:24:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[]
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
What's a lighter got to do with it?
It has a lower draught. HTH. Anchors asway!
(It's a rum do)
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-01-10 21:22:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman
[I cut some]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
Eh? whatever happened to Zorro?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2020-01-11 08:51:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman
[I cut some]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
Eh? whatever happened to Zorro?
He came out of the night when the full moon was bright....

(Wonder if Laura's looking in)....

Before someone gives me too much credit, calling the least- or
last-named member of a finite set "The Zeppo" comes from the title of an
episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in which Xander fears he has that
role among the "Scooby Gang"....r
Mack A. Damia
2020-01-11 16:16:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman
[I cut some]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
Eh? whatever happened to Zorro?
He came out of the night when the full moon was bright....
You're thinking of Larry Talbot.
Post by RH Draney
(Wonder if Laura's looking in)....
Before someone gives me too much credit, calling the least- or
last-named member of a finite set "The Zeppo" comes from the title of an
episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in which Xander fears he has that
role among the "Scooby Gang"....r
Jerry Friedman
2020-01-11 17:38:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:00:29 GMT, Jerry Friedman
[I cut some]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
As are its traditional companion words, "blood" "sweat" and
"tears"....
("Toil" is the Zeppo of that set)....r
That marks the best analogy I've seen in a while.
Eh? whatever happened to Zorro?
He came out of the night when the full moon was bright....
(Wonder if Laura's looking in)....
Before someone gives me too much credit, calling the least- or
last-named member of a finite set "The Zeppo" comes from the title of an
episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in which Xander fears he has that
role among the "Scooby Gang"....r
Whew! A narrow escape from too much credit.
--
Jerry Friedman
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