Discussion:
find false search results?
(too old to reply)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-08 19:27:19 UTC
Permalink
This is the header on an ad from Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"Find false search results in just one click."

No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).

"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!

"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.

"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"

(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Horace LaBadie
2018-10-08 21:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one
click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for
exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes
and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Google has always offered "I Feel Lucky" as an option to the best
results.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-08 21:48:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
[]
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Google has always offered "I Feel Lucky" as an option to the best
results.
Punk?
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-09 01:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one
click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for
exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes
and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Google has always offered "I Feel Lucky" as an option to the best
results.
Even if that were an accurate description, what would it have to do with
an offer to find _false_ results?
Horace LaBadie
2018-10-09 02:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one
click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for
exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes
and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Google has always offered "I Feel Lucky" as an option to the best
results.
Even if that were an accurate description, what would it have to do with
an offer to find false results?
You never know what you will get.
b***@aol.com
2018-10-09 03:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
you identify false information. See e.g.:

https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-09 03:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
b***@aol.com
2018-10-09 05:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-09 12:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
b***@aol.com
2018-10-09 14:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Britannica Insights delivers you a deeper path of discovery with just one click – getting you to the answers you are looking for faster!
"Walk away with quick, accurate answers. Plus, find an intuitive roadmap for exploring deeper context and perspectives around topics - learning the causes and impacts of major events in an instant.
"Power up your search with Britannica Insights today!"
(It's a FREE browser extension for Chrome.) (I don't use Chrome.)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-09 17:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
b***@aol.com
2018-10-09 22:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
Quinn C
2018-10-09 22:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
--
Learning the rules that govern intelligible speech is an
inculcation into normalized language, where the price of not
conforming is the loss of intelligibility itself.
-- Judith Butler
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 03:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?

Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others, the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Quinn C
2018-10-10 03:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years.
My guess was pretty close, then. In fact, had I remembered your age
correctly, i would have said 1965.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Among many others, the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Ha! An authority on how to write French quotes in an English text
maybe, but certainly not on how to write French for French-speaking
people.
--
*Hardware* /n./ The parts of a computer that can be kicked

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe kicking computer hardware is
a productive endeavor
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 12:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years.
My guess was pretty close, then. In fact, had I remembered your age
correctly, i would have said 1965.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Among many others, the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Ha! An authority on how to write French quotes in an English text
maybe, but certainly not on how to write French for French-speaking
people.
You seem to have lost sight of the fact that it was a French person who
did not recognize that "possibilites" is an English word, and that there
is a reasonable explanation for why that happened.

I note that you haven't provided examples of capital e-acute in old
newspaper headlines.
b***@aol.com
2018-10-10 13:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years.
My guess was pretty close, then. In fact, had I remembered your age
correctly, i would have said 1965.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Among many others, the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Ha! An authority on how to write French quotes in an English text
maybe, but certainly not on how to write French for French-speaking
people.
You seem to have lost sight of the fact that it was a French person who
did not recognize that "possibilites" is
not
Post by Peter T. Daniels
an English word, and that there
is a reasonable explanation for why that happened.
Yes there is: I hadn't even read the passage in question.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I note that you haven't provided examples of capital e-acute in old
newspaper headlines.
Quinn C
2018-10-10 16:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years.
My guess was pretty close, then. In fact, had I remembered your age
correctly, i would have said 1965.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Among many others, the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Ha! An authority on how to write French quotes in an English text
maybe, but certainly not on how to write French for French-speaking
people.
You seem to have lost sight of the fact that it was a French person who
did not recognize that "possibilites" is an English word, and that there
is a reasonable explanation for why that happened.
Since it wasn't capitalized in the original, there wasn't, and we had
long entered the realm of idle speculation.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I note that you haven't provided examples of capital e-acute in old
newspaper headlines.
Me? Why me?

Easy if needed, anyway:
<Loading Image...>

In three different fonts no less.
--
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use
the 'Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
b***@aol.com
2018-10-10 13:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
mine):

Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.

Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.

*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.

(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 13:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
Post by b***@aol.com
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.
What more evidence do you need that it's a routine practice?

The Académie can "deplore" and "regulate" all it wants, but that quite
clearly does not mean that anyone (except perhaps government printers)
will do as they demand.
Post by b***@aol.com
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.
Obviously that's not the case, since the practice has not gone out of use
because of intelligibility problems.

I just now happen to be reviewing a ms. for a publisher on the creation
of tone notations for a variety of West African languages, and one of the
things that is well known is that with existing orthographies that provide
for the notation of phonemic tone, speakers of the language often don't
bother to write tone. (This is the case more in ex-British than in ex-
French colonies, for obvious reasons.)
Post by b***@aol.com
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-10-10 14:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
You might want to rethink that.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 14:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
You might want to rethink that.
What do you think might be wrong with the statement? Going as far back as
the Laws of Hammurapi, historians are able to say that such-and-such an
offense got committed precisely because there's a provision among the
laws (which are now understood not as a "law code" in the modern sense,
but a list of precedents) for how to make restitution for committing it.

Every so often someone digs up a wacky law from the 18/19th century
that clearly no one would ever have thought of enacting if someone
hadn't been outraged by someone doing what was now prohibited.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 15:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
Post by b***@aol.com
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.
What more evidence do you need that it's a routine practice?
The discussion is about the _propriety_ of the practice.
No, it actually isn't. You already said you didn't read the passage that
contained the typo. That suggests that you also didn't read the passage
that led to my comment.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Académie can "deplore" and "regulate" all it wants, but that quite
clearly does not mean that anyone (except perhaps government printers)
will do as they demand.
Just read French press and publications, and see for yourself.
I see that the Académie has no more credibility on this matter than on
any other.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.
Obviously that's not the case, since the practice has not gone out of use
because of intelligibility problems.
Obviously, that's the case, and the practice is fast disappearing. How
UN INTERNE TUE
can mean
"Un étudiant en médecine a assassiné quelqu’un" (UN INTERNE TUE)
"Un étudiant en médecine a été tué" (UN INTERNE TUÉ)
"Un fou s’est fait assassiner" (UN INTERNÉ TUÉ)
"Un fou a tué quelqu’un" (UN INTERNÉ TUE)
If that was an actual example, and not one invented for this argument,
did the accompanying story not make clear what was intended?
or
L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS
can mean
"Computer science is sixty years old" (L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS)
or
"Computer science at the age of sixty" (L’INFORMATIQUE À SOIXANTE ANS)
I already noted that the grave is not omissible on the preposition.

Not that, in this case, there's much difference between the two.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I just now happen to be reviewing a ms. for a publisher on the creation
of tone notations for a variety of West African languages, and one of the
things that is well known is that with existing orthographies that provide
for the notation of phonemic tone, speakers of the language often don't
bother to write tone. (This is the case more in ex-British than in ex-
French colonies, for obvious reasons.)
Post by b***@aol.com
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
b***@aol.com
2018-10-10 15:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
Post by b***@aol.com
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.
What more evidence do you need that it's a routine practice?
The discussion is about the _propriety_ of the practice.
No, it actually isn't. You already said you didn't read the passage that
contained the typo. That suggests that you also didn't read the passage
that led to my comment.
??? What started the discussion is my writing "the correct form is
POSSIBILITÉ" in response to your "POSSIBILITE" - doesn't "correct"
suggest propriety to you?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Académie can "deplore" and "regulate" all it wants, but that quite
clearly does not mean that anyone (except perhaps government printers)
will do as they demand.
Just read French press and publications, and see for yourself.
I see that the Académie has no more credibility on this matter than on
any other.
What are French newspapers and publishers supposed to follow, then, the
Chicago Manual of Style?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.
Obviously that's not the case, since the practice has not gone out of use
because of intelligibility problems.
Obviously, that's the case, and the practice is fast disappearing. How
UN INTERNE TUE
can mean
"Un étudiant en médecine a assassiné quelqu’un" (UN INTERNE TUE)
"Un étudiant en médecine a été tué" (UN INTERNE TUÉ)
"Un fou s’est fait assassiner" (UN INTERNÉ TUÉ)
"Un fou a tué quelqu’un" (UN INTERNÉ TUE)
If that was an actual example, and not one invented for this argument,
did the accompanying story not make clear what was intended?
or
L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS
can mean
"Computer science is sixty years old" (L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS)
or
"Computer science at the age of sixty" (L’INFORMATIQUE À SOIXANTE ANS)
I already noted that the grave is not omissible on the preposition.
Not that, in this case, there's much difference between the two.
??? "À SOIXANTE ANS" obviously means "for the sixty-year olds", so
that the accent does make a huge difference. Have you really translated
books from French?
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I just now happen to be reviewing a ms. for a publisher on the creation
of tone notations for a variety of West African languages, and one of the
things that is well known is that with existing orthographies that provide
for the notation of phonemic tone, speakers of the language often don't
bother to write tone. (This is the case more in ex-British than in ex-
French colonies, for obvious reasons.)
Post by b***@aol.com
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-10 16:27:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
Post by b***@aol.com
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.
What more evidence do you need that it's a routine practice?
The discussion is about the _propriety_ of the practice.
No, it actually isn't. You already said you didn't read the passage that
contained the typo. That suggests that you also didn't read the passage
that led to my comment.
??? What started the discussion is my writing "the correct form is
POSSIBILITÉ" in response to your "POSSIBILITE" - doesn't "correct"
suggest propriety to you?
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Académie can "deplore" and "regulate" all it wants, but that quite
clearly does not mean that anyone (except perhaps government printers)
will do as they demand.
Just read French press and publications, and see for yourself.
I see that the Académie has no more credibility on this matter than on
any other.
What are French newspapers and publishers supposed to follow, then, the
Chicago Manual of Style?
Their own traditions and instincts. The Academy has no enforcement power
whatsoever.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.
Obviously that's not the case, since the practice has not gone out of use
because of intelligibility problems.
Obviously, that's the case, and the practice is fast disappearing. How
UN INTERNE TUE
can mean
"Un étudiant en médecine a assassiné quelqu’un" (UN INTERNE TUE)
"Un étudiant en médecine a été tué" (UN INTERNE TUÉ)
"Un fou s’est fait assassiner" (UN INTERNÉ TUÉ)
"Un fou a tué quelqu’un" (UN INTERNÉ TUE)
If that was an actual example, and not one invented for this argument,
did the accompanying story not make clear what was intended?
or
L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS
can mean
"Computer science is sixty years old" (L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS)
or
"Computer science at the age of sixty" (L’INFORMATIQUE À SOIXANTE ANS)
I already noted that the grave is not omissible on the preposition.
Not that, in this case, there's much difference between the two.
??? "À SOIXANTE ANS" obviously means "for the sixty-year olds", so
that the accent does make a huge difference. Have you really translated
books from French?
The meanings are somewhat different. The difference in meaning makes no
difference in the understanding.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I just now happen to be reviewing a ms. for a publisher on the creation
of tone notations for a variety of West African languages, and one of the
things that is well known is that with existing orthographies that provide
for the notation of phonemic tone, speakers of the language often don't
bother to write tone. (This is the case more in ex-British than in ex-
French colonies, for obvious reasons.)
Post by b***@aol.com
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
b***@aol.com
2018-10-10 17:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendable little
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps,
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legitimately
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave in the
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevisse" all
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything possible.
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit
As is well known, one doesn't "deplore" (or make laws against) things
that people don't do.
Post by b***@aol.com
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour
réduire les frais de composition.
What more evidence do you need that it's a routine practice?
The discussion is about the _propriety_ of the practice.
No, it actually isn't. You already said you didn't read the passage that
contained the typo. That suggests that you also didn't read the passage
that led to my comment.
??? What started the discussion is my writing "the correct form is
POSSIBILITÉ" in response to your "POSSIBILITE" - doesn't "correct"
suggest propriety to you?
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French.
In barely 1% of the cases, that is.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Académie can "deplore" and "regulate" all it wants, but that quite
clearly does not mean that anyone (except perhaps government printers)
will do as they demand.
Just read French press and publications, and see for yourself.
I see that the Académie has no more credibility on this matter than on
any other.
What are French newspapers and publishers supposed to follow, then, the
Chicago Manual of Style?
Their own traditions and instincts.
Fortunately, they don't.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Academy has no enforcement power whatsoever.
But it's de facto a very respected institution in France and the
French-speaking world.

Besides, I find it at the very least paradoxical that you refer to the
Chicago Manual of Style in support of your ex cathedra view on a
French-typography issue, and at the same time deny the Académie, i.e.
the ultimate authority to French-speakers themselves, any legitimacy.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, l’accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le
tréma et la cédille*.
Obviously that's not the case, since the practice has not gone out of use
because of intelligibility problems.
Obviously, that's the case, and the practice is fast disappearing. How
UN INTERNE TUE
can mean
"Un étudiant en médecine a assassiné quelqu’un" (UN INTERNE TUE)
"Un étudiant en médecine a été tué" (UN INTERNE TUÉ)
"Un fou s’est fait assassiner" (UN INTERNÉ TUÉ)
"Un fou a tué quelqu’un" (UN INTERNÉ TUE)
If that was an actual example, and not one invented for this argument,
did the accompanying story not make clear what was intended?
or
L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS
can mean
"Computer science is sixty years old" (L’INFORMATIQUE A SOIXANTE ANS)
or
"Computer science at the age of sixty" (L’INFORMATIQUE À SOIXANTE ANS)
I already noted that the grave is not omissible on the preposition.
Not that, in this case, there's much difference between the two.
??? "À SOIXANTE ANS" obviously means "for the sixty-year olds", so
that the accent does make a huge difference. Have you really translated
books from French?
The meanings are somewhat different. The difference in meaning makes no
difference in the understanding.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
I just now happen to be reviewing a ms. for a publisher on the creation
of tone notations for a variety of West African languages, and one of the
things that is well known is that with existing orthographies that provide
for the notation of phonemic tone, speakers of the language often don't
bother to write tone. (This is the case more in ex-British than in ex-
French colonies, for obvious reasons.)
Post by b***@aol.com
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation-des-majuscules-em-strong)
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-11 18:00:05 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:27:45 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 17:01:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:42:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 15:44:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a é
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 9:25:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 05:17:19 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
a
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 19:08:53 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels a
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:24:58 AM UTC-4,
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 14:13:45 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 1:11:12 AM UTC-4,
bebe..
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 05:30:20 UTC+2, Peter T.
Dani
On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 11:20:00 PM
UTC-4, be
Le lundi 8 octobre 2018 21:27:21 UTC+2, Peter
T.
Good. Lord.
[200 lines snipped]
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Richard Yates
2018-10-11 19:33:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:00:05 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[200 lines snipped]
(46 too few).
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-11 20:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:00:05 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[200 lines snipped]
(46 too few).
Poor arithmetic (aka guessing).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Richard Yates
2018-10-11 20:51:46 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 20:13:41 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:00:05 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[200 lines snipped]
(46 too few).
Poor arithmetic (aka guessing).
No, I counted as I went. Might have been off by one or two.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-12 08:42:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 20:13:41 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 19:33:37 GMT, Richard Yates
Post by Richard Yates
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:00:05 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[200 lines snipped]
(46 too few).
Poor arithmetic (aka guessing).
No, I counted as I went. Might have been off by one or two.
Sure; I was saying *I'd* guessed!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-11 19:52:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:27:45 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 17:01:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:42:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 15:44:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a é
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 9:25:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 05:17:19 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
a
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 19:08:53 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels a
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:24:58 AM UTC-4,
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 14:13:45 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 1:11:12 AM UTC-4,
bebe..
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 05:30:20 UTC+2, Peter T.
Dani
On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 11:20:00 PM
UTC-4, be
Le lundi 8 octobre 2018 21:27:21 UTC+2, Peter
T.
Good. Lord.
[200 lines snipped]
Now _that's_ a stellar contribution to the topic!
Quinn C
2018-10-11 21:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:27:45 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 17:01:24 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 10:42:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 15:44:33 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a é
On Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 9:25:52 AM UTC-4,
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 05:17:19 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels
a
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 19:08:53 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels a
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 10:24:58 AM UTC-4,
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 14:13:45 UTC+2, Peter T.
Daniels
On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 1:11:12 AM UTC-4,
bebe..
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 05:30:20 UTC+2, Peter T.
Dani
On Monday, October 8, 2018 at 11:20:00 PM
UTC-4, be
Le lundi 8 octobre 2018 21:27:21 UTC+2, Peter
T.
Good. Lord.
[200 lines snipped]
Now _that's_ a stellar contribution to the topic!
Are you familiar with the term meta-discussion?
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-12 15:21:43 UTC
Permalink
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
It just so happens that I have a book in French sitting on my desk:
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.

Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 16:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.

Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
b***@aol.com
2018-10-12 17:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
Enzymologists, like anybody else, had rather have their publications
written in good French. It so happens that the Académie rules on what
good French is or is not - that's a fact - and that its opinion is widely
respected by publishers. Granted, some rules the Académie prescribes may
be intricate enough that they're confusing and often disregarded, but in
the case of capital letters, things are pretty simple - either they're accented or they're not - so why on earth shouldn't the rule be applied?
Tony Cooper
2018-10-12 18:36:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
Enzymologists, like anybody else, had rather have their publications
written in good French. It so happens that the Académie rules on what
good French is or is not - that's a fact - and that its opinion is widely
respected by publishers. Granted, some rules the Académie prescribes may
be intricate enough that they're confusing and often disregarded, but in
the case of capital letters, things are pretty simple - either they're accented or they're not - so why on earth shouldn't the rule be applied?
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".

Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-13 07:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
Enzymologists, like anybody else, had rather have their publications
written in good French. It so happens that the Académie rules on what
good French is or is not - that's a fact - and that its opinion is widely
respected by publishers. Granted, some rules the Académie prescribes may
be intricate enough that they're confusing and often disregarded, but in
the case of capital letters, things are pretty simple - either they're
accented or they're not - so why on earth shouldn't the rule be applied?
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.

A right-wing politician was very cross on television the other day that
a woman from Rwanda has become secretary-general, despite the fact that
French has been replaced by English as required language in schools in
Rwanda. In recent years Rwanda has made huge progress, leaving Burundi,
its twin, far behind: no doubt they know what's good for their future.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-13 13:26:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is) is not a requirement
for joining that particular association.

Moreover, they have simply "observer status," which e.g. the two Koreas
had at the UN for decades.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
A right-wing politician was very cross on television the other day that
a woman from Rwanda has become secretary-general, despite the fact that
French has been replaced by English as required language in schools in
Rwanda. In recent years Rwanda has made huge progress, leaving Burundi,
its twin, far behind: no doubt they know what's good for their future.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-13 16:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
) is not a requirement
for joining that particular association.
Moreover, they have simply "observer status,"
As Tony said.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
which e.g. the two Koreas
had at the UN for decades.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
A right-wing politician was very cross on television the other day that
a woman from Rwanda has become secretary-general, despite the fact that
French has been replaced by English as required language in schools in
Rwanda. In recent years Rwanda has made huge progress, leaving Burundi,
its twin, far behind: no doubt they know what's good for their future.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-13 18:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
) is not a requirement
for joining that particular association.
Moreover, they have simply "observer status,"
As Tony said.
So it shouldn't have been necessary to repeat it, but ...
Quinn C
2018-10-15 22:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
--
Manche Dinge sind vorgeschrieben, weil man sie braucht, andere
braucht man nur, weil sie vorgeschrieben sind.
-- Helmut Richter in de.etc.sprache.deutsch
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 01:45:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Quinn C
2018-10-16 02:55:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.

I see now another statistic that puts the number of French-speaking
households in Maine at >5% and before Louisiana, That difference may be
due to household sizes, or because of households that are
French-speaking, but not exclusively.
--
Some things are taken away from you, some you leave behind-and
some you carry with you, world without end.
-- Robert C. Wilson, Vortex (novel), p.31
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 03:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
Post by Quinn C
I see now another statistic that puts the number of French-speaking
households in Maine at >5% and before Louisiana, That difference may be
due to household sizes, or because of households that are
French-speaking, but not exclusively.
Tony Cooper
2018-10-16 05:28:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:19:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
Based on what's going on in the US, I would expect the border traffic
to be going north. The study should be about how many people in
Canada say "Ayuh" for "Yes". Quebec and New Brunswick ought to be
thinking about a wall.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-16 05:59:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:19:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
Based on what's going on in the US, I would expect the border traffic
to be going north. The study should be about how many people in
Canada say "Ayuh" for "Yes". Quebec and New Brunswick ought to be
thinking about a wall.
And expecting Trump to pay for it.
--
athel
Lewis
2018-10-16 12:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 20:19:06 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
Based on what's going on in the US, I would expect the border traffic
to be going north. The study should be about how many people in
Canada say "Ayuh" for "Yes". Quebec and New Brunswick ought to be
thinking about a wall.
It is quite hard to immigrate to Canada, actually. And much harder to be
an illegal there.

In the US, it is trivial for a non-brown person to live here without
having gone through the proper procedures.

A friend of a friend lived in the US for 25 years before he returned to
Germany, and he had come in on a student visa and just stayed. Never had
the slightest problem.
--
A bird in the hand makes it difficult to blow your nose.
Cheryl
2018-10-16 12:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
It is quite hard to immigrate to Canada, actually. And much harder to be
an illegal there.
In the US, it is trivial for a non-brown person to live here without
having gone through the proper procedures.
A friend of a friend lived in the US for 25 years before he returned to
Germany, and he had come in on a student visa and just stayed. Never had
the slightest problem.
Wasn't there a sting operation in California some years back? The
authorities put out a casting call for actors with Canadian accents, and
then checked out the residency status of the applicants. They caught a
lot of Canadians citizens who were living and working illegally in the
US, or so I heard.

Living and working legally in the US has become harder and harder, from
what I hear. Even people who are legal can run into problems when they
return from a holiday back home in Canada, and get stopped at the border
because there's some unforeseen glitch in the paperwork.

And there are all the little oddities - a white Canadian relative of
mine who actually went so far as to take out citizenship in the US had
to dig up proof when she wanted to take a single university course. If
she'd been faking her status, she'd have been out of luck.

I suspect it was never entirely trivially easy to live in the US as a
white illegal alien, and it certainly isn't now.
--
Cheryl
Tak To
2018-10-16 17:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Lewis
It is quite hard to immigrate to Canada, actually. And much harder to be
an illegal there.
In the US, it is trivial for a non-brown person to live here without
having gone through the proper procedures.
A friend of a friend lived in the US for 25 years before he returned to
Germany, and he had come in on a student visa and just stayed. Never had
the slightest problem.
Wasn't there a sting operation in California some years back? The
authorities put out a casting call for actors with Canadian accents, and
then checked out the residency status of the applicants. They caught a
lot of Canadians citizens who were living and working illegally in the
US, or so I heard.
Living and working legally in the US has become harder and harder, from
what I hear. Even people who are legal can run into problems when they
return from a holiday back home in Canada, and get stopped at the border
because there's some unforeseen glitch in the paperwork.
And there are all the little oddities - a white Canadian relative of
mine who actually went so far as to take out citizenship in the US had
to dig up proof when she wanted to take a single university course. If
she'd been faking her status, she'd have been out of luck.
That seems normal these days for the admissions office of
a university to verify the citizen/permanent resident status.
Post by Cheryl
I suspect it was never entirely trivially easy to live in the US as a
white illegal alien, and it certainly isn't now.
Regardless of one's skin color, it is pretty easily if one has
a Social Security number and a driver's license[1] and one is
or traveling abroad or looking for employment[2] or any kind of
financial assistance.

[1] These can be obtained while one is legal, however
temporarily. In most states these days, a valid old
license, the Social Security card and a credit card with
a photo would satisfy the documentation requirement in
renewing a driver's license.

[2] One can be self-employed.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Lewis
2018-10-16 21:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Lewis
It is quite hard to immigrate to Canada, actually. And much harder to be
an illegal there.
In the US, it is trivial for a non-brown person to live here without
having gone through the proper procedures.
A friend of a friend lived in the US for 25 years before he returned to
Germany, and he had come in on a student visa and just stayed. Never had
the slightest problem.
Wasn't there a sting operation in California some years back? The
authorities put out a casting call for actors with Canadian accents, and
then checked out the residency status of the applicants. They caught a
lot of Canadians citizens who were living and working illegally in the
US, or so I heard.
Could be. But "a lot" was probably 0.00001% of the Candians living here
illegally.
Post by Cheryl
Living and working legally in the US has become harder and harder, from
what I hear. Even people who are legal can run into problems when they
return from a holiday back home in Canada, and get stopped at the border
because there's some unforeseen glitch in the paperwork.
Hell, American citizens with "funny" names or who were born overseas
have problems. Also, people with bears, anyone with dark skin, and any
women attractive enough that the TSA wants to fondle them.
Post by Cheryl
I suspect it was never entirely trivially easy to live in the US as a
white illegal alien, and it certainly isn't now.
It is trivial to exist int eh US without having to deal with CBP.
--
The Earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only much, much heavier.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2018-10-18 10:43:45 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 21:11:13 GMT, Lewis
Post by Lewis
Hell, American citizens with "funny" names or who were born overseas
have problems. Also, people with bears, anyone with dark skin, and any
I'd be worried about people with bears, too.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2018-10-17 03:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Living and working legally in the US has become harder and harder,
from what I hear. Even people who are legal can run into problems
when they return from a holiday back home in Canada, and get stopped
at the border because there's some unforeseen glitch in the
paperwork.
And there are all the little oddities - a white Canadian relative of
mine who actually went so far as to take out citizenship in the US
had to dig up proof when she wanted to take a single university
course. If she'd been faking her status, she'd have been out of
luck.
Once, when travelling from Canada to the USA, I was initially refused
entry into the US on the grounds that I had never left. The problem, as
I recall it, was that I had entered Canada by train, and hadn't had my
passport stamped at the border.

They relented when I showed them that my driver's license had a
California address.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-16 19:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
A friend of a friend lived in the US for 25 years before he returned to
Germany, and he had come in on a student visa and just stayed. Never had
the slightest problem.
I suspect that would once have been true in many western countries.
Over time, the controls have become much more complex and exacting.
--
Sam Plusnet
RHDraney
2018-10-16 08:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
After all, this *is* the forest primeval....r
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 13:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by RHDraney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
After all, this *is* the forest primeval....r
Hah! I always assumed that was from *Hiawatha*. The same Kalevala meter.
Quinn C
2018-10-16 12:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state".
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers.)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
That's why I didn't focus on whether it's difficult to cross, but how
there's little reason to.
--
The need of a personal pronoun of the singular number and common
gender is so desperate, urgent, imperative, that ... it should long
since have grown on our speech -- The Atlantic Monthly (1878)
Tak To
2018-10-16 13:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state"..
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers..)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I see now another statistic that puts the number of French-speaking
households in Maine at >5% and before Louisiana, That difference may be
due to household sizes, or because of households that are
French-speaking, but not exclusively.
That could be it.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Cheryl
2018-10-16 13:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
They're illegal if they (the Canadians, and the Mexicans who are
visiting legally) take a job.
--
Cheryl
Tak To
2018-10-16 19:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tak To
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
They're illegal if they (the Canadians, and the Mexicans who are
visiting legally) take a job.
If they can get a job, they can apply for a TN visa without
leaving the country. TN is a special work visa for Canadians
and Mexicans, as both countries are part of NAFTA. It is
considerably fast than the H1B visa, which has a long waiting
list.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 20:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tak To
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
They're illegal if they (the Canadians, and the Mexicans who are
visiting legally) take a job.
If they can get a job, they can apply for a TN visa without
leaving the country. TN is a special work visa for Canadians
and Mexicans, as both countries are part of NAFTA. It is
considerably fast than the H1B visa, which has a long waiting
list.
ITYM USAMCA. Or USACMA. Trump himself couldn't remember. Doesn't care, as
long as USA comes first.
Quinn C
2018-10-16 21:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tak To
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
They're illegal if they (the Canadians, and the Mexicans who are
visiting legally) take a job.
If they can get a job, they can apply for a TN visa without
leaving the country. TN is a special work visa for Canadians
and Mexicans, as both countries are part of NAFTA. It is
considerably fast than the H1B visa, which has a long waiting
list.
But NAFTA is dead. Will USMCA [1] have the same rules?

____
[1] Given that French acronyms are often anagrams of English ones
(NATO-OTAN, GMO-OGM etc.) I wish the French abbreviation could be
CAMUS.
--
A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell.
Peter Moylan in alt.usage.english

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe "chrysanthemum" is the hardest
word to spell in English
Tak To
2018-10-17 01:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Tak To
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tak To
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
They're illegal if they (the Canadians, and the Mexicans who are
visiting legally) take a job.
If they can get a job, they can apply for a TN visa without
leaving the country. TN is a special work visa for Canadians
and Mexicans, as both countries are part of NAFTA. It is
considerably fast than the H1B visa, which has a long waiting
list.
But NAFTA is dead. Will USMCA [1] have the same rules?
USMCA has not been ratified yet. In any case, the labor provisions
are not changed so the TN visas will still be there.
Post by Quinn C
____
[1] Given that French acronyms are often anagrams of English ones
(NATO-OTAN, GMO-OGM etc.) I wish the French abbreviation could be
CAMUS.
There cannot be a stranger name.
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Jerry Friedman
2018-10-17 02:11:03 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
But NAFTA is dead. Will USMCA [1] have the same rules?
USMCA has not been ratified yet. In any case, the labor provisions
are not changed so the TN visas will still be there.
Post by Quinn C
____
[1] Given that French acronyms are often anagrams of English ones
(NATO-OTAN, GMO-OGM etc.) I wish the French abbreviation could be
CAMUS.
There cannot be a stranger name.
...

Maybe we can think of one this Fall.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2018-10-17 03:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Tak To
Post by Quinn C
But NAFTA is dead. Will USMCA [1] have the same rules?
USMCA has not been ratified yet. In any case, the labor provisions
are not changed so the TN visas will still be there.
Post by Quinn C
____
[1] Given that French acronyms are often anagrams of English ones
(NATO-OTAN, GMO-OGM etc.) I wish the French abbreviation could be
CAMUS.
There cannot be a stranger name.
...
Maybe we can think of one this Fall.
That would be a pest.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 13:44:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state"..
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers..)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
You're a bit behind the times. A passport has been required since shortly
after 9/11. Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
I see now another statistic that puts the number of French-speaking
households in Maine at >5% and before Louisiana, That difference may be
due to household sizes, or because of households that are
French-speaking, but not exclusively.
That could be it.
Quinn C
2018-10-16 16:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state"..
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers..)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
You're a bit behind the times. A passport has been required since shortly
after 9/11.
When coming by plane, yes. For land crossings, it took another 10 years
or so. And they still don't need ESTA (pre-registration.)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
In many cases this is true, and not recognizing that is a common
confusion that bothers me. You may not need a visa in order to enter a
foreign country if you're able to get one at the border.

But there is cases where you don't need a visa at all, different from
getting one at the border:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Canadian_citizens#Visa_requirements_map>

For the many countries that are part of the Visa Waiver Program, the US
government says:

| ... permits citizens of 38 countries to travel to the United States for
| business or tourism for stays of up to 90 days without a visa.
<https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waiver-program>

They stamp into your passport which day you arrived, and until which
day you're good to stay. They staple a green card into your passport
that is removed when you leave. But neither of those is a visa.
--
Q: What do computer engineers use for birth control?
A: Their personalities.

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe all computer engineers can't have
sex due to their personality
Quinn C
2018-10-16 16:22:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
In many cases this is true, and not recognizing that is a common
confusion that bothers me. You may not need a visa in order to enter a
foreign country if you're able to get one at the border.
But there is cases where you don't need a visa at all, different from
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni". Germans get
"ein Visum, zwei Visa".
--
Failover worked - the system failed, then it was over.
(freely translated from a remark by Dietz Proepper
in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't believe "failover" is ever
intended to mean that
Richard Tobin
2018-10-16 17:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni".
Why do you think it's wrong? It's a certificate relating to
"things seen".

(Oddly the OED takes it as the feminine singular of visus,
while ODEE says neuter plural.)

-- Richard
Paul Wolff
2018-10-16 18:43:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Quinn C
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni".
Why do you think it's wrong? It's a certificate relating to
"things seen".
(Oddly the OED takes it as the feminine singular of visus,
while ODEE says neuter plural.)
Res is feminine: perhaps "res visa" in that case (nominative!).
--
Paul
Quinn C
2018-10-16 21:54:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Quinn C
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni".
Why do you think it's wrong? It's a certificate relating to
"things seen".
(Oddly the OED takes it as the feminine singular of visus,
while ODEE says neuter plural.)
Yes, I see both etymologies in various sources - "charta visa" as a
source for the feminine singular.

OK, so using "visa" is older than "visum". I guess there's no recipe on
how to turn a literal quote ("a 'VISA' endorsement") into a (countable)
noun. Maybe we should look for comparable examples.
--
Spell checker (n.) One who gives examinations on witchcraft.
Herman Rubin in sci.lang

Disclaimer: I, Quinn, don't think this is the usual meaning of
"spell checker"
Richard Tobin
2018-10-17 10:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
OK, so using "visa" is older than "visum".
"Visum" doesn't exist at all in English. It's not a word.

I guess there's no recipe on
Post by Quinn C
how to turn a literal quote ("a 'VISA' endorsement") into a (countable)
noun. Maybe we should look for comparable examples.
It's not very different from "agenda" etc. "Things seen", "things to
be done". But this is English, so there's never going to be a rule.

-- Richard
b***@aol.com
2018-10-17 14:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Quinn C
OK, so using "visa" is older than "visum".
"Visum" doesn't exist at all in English. It's not a word.
I guess there's no recipe on
Post by Quinn C
how to turn a literal quote ("a 'VISA' endorsement") into a (countable)
noun. Maybe we should look for comparable examples.
"Visa" as a noun results from a metonymy: what was originally a word
affixed on a document to indicate that document has been verified now
refers to the endorsement itself.

The noun "go-ahead", which is based on the phrase "Go ahead!" and means
"permission to proceed" is a comparable example.
Post by Richard Tobin
It's not very different from "agenda" etc. "Things seen", "things to
be done". But this is English, so there's never going to be a rule.
-- Richard
b***@aol.com
2018-10-17 19:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Quinn C
OK, so using "visa" is older than "visum".
"Visum" doesn't exist at all in English. It's not a word.
I guess there's no recipe on
Post by Quinn C
how to turn a literal quote ("a 'VISA' endorsement") into a (countable)
noun. Maybe we should look for comparable examples.
"Visa" as a noun results from a metonymy: what was originally a word
affixed on a document to indicate that document has been verified now
refers to the endorsement itself.
The noun "go-ahead", which is based on the phrase "Go ahead!" and means
"permission to proceed" is a comparable example.
On second thoughts, the noun "imprimatur" is a closer example, as it's
Latin - but strangely since its usage is also metonymical, M-W says it
can have two plurals in English, i.e. "imprimaturs", which is justified
for the same reason that "visas" is and "imprimantur" (the Latin plural
of "imprimatur"), which doesn't really make sense.
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Richard Tobin
It's not very different from "agenda" etc. "Things seen", "things to
be done". But this is English, so there's never going to be a rule.
-- Richard
Paul Wolff
2018-10-16 18:39:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
In many cases this is true, and not recognizing that is a common
confusion that bothers me. You may not need a visa in order to enter a
foreign country if you're able to get one at the border.
But there is cases where you don't need a visa at all, different from
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni". Germans get
"ein Visum, zwei Visa".
Getting a visa in advance doesn't make much sense either, because it
signifies "(things) (already) seen". It's the gerundive formed from the
past participle of video. I'm not well-informed on the subject, but I
think the act of stamping the passport meant "this document and what it
attests to have been seen and acknowledged at the port of entry". Or
"visa" for short.
--
Paul
Quinn C
2018-10-16 21:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
In many cases this is true, and not recognizing that is a common
confusion that bothers me. You may not need a visa in order to enter a
foreign country if you're able to get one at the border.
But there is cases where you don't need a visa at all, different from
Linking threads, a thing that bothered me originally, but that I have
gotten used to, is that "a visa" is as bad as "an alumni". Germans get
"ein Visum, zwei Visa".
Getting a visa in advance doesn't make much sense either, because it
signifies "(things) (already) seen". It's the gerundive formed from the
past participle of video. I'm not well-informed on the subject, but I
think the act of stamping the passport meant "this document and what it
attests to have been seen and acknowledged at the port of entry". Or
"visa" for short.
Our permanent, internationally accepted passports are relatively new
(in this form, ca. 100 years), and the word "visa" developed before
they were common.

My understanding is the following: When you apply for a visa, depending
on the purpose of travel, they may want to see more than just your
passport. Then the visa (separate document or inside a passport)
acknowledges that all the necessary documents have been seen to gain
the applicable status.
--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-16 16:54:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Tony Cooper
On a somewhat - if distantly - related note, the US state of Louisiana
has been recognized as a "Francophone state" and accepted into the
International Organization of Francophones as an "observer state"..
Louisiana joins Ireland, Malta, and Gambia as new admissions.
It smacks of scraping the bottom of the barrel! There are of course
French speakers in Louisiana, and probably in Gambia, surrounded as it
is by Senegal. Ireland and Malta, not too many.
Being French-speaking (which Louisiana actually is
Hmm. Really? "Figures from the United States Census record that roughly
3.5% of Louisianans over the age of 5 report speaking French or a
French-based creole at home." That's not a lot.
More than anywhere else in the US except maybe Maine.
I find 3.06% for Maine. But Louisiana has several parishes with over
20% French speakers.
The illegals probably don't respond to US census surveys. (I.e. Mainers..)
Francophone illegals in Maine? You think that's a sizable number? I
always hear how shockingly white Maine is, and I don't think it has a
lot to offer to Canadians, compared to other states.
The Francophone communities in Maine are discussed in books on "Language
in the USA." (There are several by that or very similar titles.) If the
border isn't controlled in the places where it's relatively easy to
cross, how much less so in the thick trackless forests of that area!
However, since Canadians do not need a visa to visit the
US, they are not illegals. And it is probably a lot easier
for them to get work permits than Mexicans.
You're a bit behind the times. A passport has been required since shortly
after 9/11.
When coming by plane, yes. For land crossings, it took another 10 years
or so. And they still don't need ESTA (pre-registration.)
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Apparently the stamp they stamp in it when you enter is a
"visa," whether or not it was applied for in advance.
In many cases this is true, and not recognizing that is a common
confusion that bothers me. You may not need a visa in order to enter a
foreign country if you're able to get one at the border.
But there is cases where you don't need a visa at all, different from
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Canadian_citizens#Visa_requirements_map>
For the many countries that are part of the Visa Waiver Program, the US
| ... permits citizens of 38 countries to travel to the United States for
| business or tourism for stays of up to 90 days without a visa.
<https://www.cbp.gov/travel/international-visitors/visa-waiver-program>
They stamp into your passport which day you arrived, and until which
day you're good to stay. They staple a green card into your passport
that is removed when you leave. But neither of those is a visa.
I've never been a foreigner entering the US.
Sam Plusnet
2018-10-12 20:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
Excellent!
This thread really needed a conspiracy theory.

You may have inadvertently uncovered the plot for Dan Brown's next book.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-12 21:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy felt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It puts
accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition. I
also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on the
goodwill of the Académie?
Excellent!
This thread really needed a conspiracy theory.
You may have inadvertently uncovered the plot for Dan Brown's next book.
I won't read that one, either.

The Usedbook Annex at the Barnes & Noble in Paramus, NJ, (there are four
such around the country, I was told) had on display -- maybe still does;
they keep moving the locked-case displays around -- a signed first edition
of one of Brown's books from before the famous one. They were asking
upwards of $1000 for it. I asked who would buy it, and the usedbooks guy
said that there is indeed a market for that sort of dreck (he checked
some prices on line -- maybe auctions; maybe what other retailers were
asking). I don't think it's the same as early Picassos or Pollocks showing
that they really could draw when they wanted to ...
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-13 07:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
It just so happens that I have a book in French sitting on my desk:>
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy>
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It
puts> accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition.
I> also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie>
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do>
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on
thegoodwill of the Académie?
Of course not. In any case, both Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Gut Hervé were
retired, so they didn't have jobs. Stéphane Leduc died many years ago
(1935-ish, I think). Since yesterday I've looked at a couple of novels
I have out from the library (different authors, different publishers):
both have accents on captal letters.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French.
A completely general, but false, claim.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-13 13:24:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
It just so happens that I have a book in French sitting on my desk:>
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Guy>
Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP Sciences. It
puts> accents systematically on capitals, including À as a preposition.
I> also have a very much older book by Stéphane Leduc (1912) Biologie>
synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do>
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on
thegoodwill of the Académie?
Of course not. In any case, both Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Gut Hervé were
retired, so they didn't have jobs. Stéphane Leduc died many years ago
(1935-ish, I think). Since yesterday I've looked at a couple of novels
both have accents on captal letters.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French.
A completely general, but false, claim.
Yet it is subscribed to by the Académie.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-13 16:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
It just so happens that I have a book in French sitting on my desk:>>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and
Guy>> >> Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP
Sciences. It> >> puts> accents systematically on capitals, including À
as a preposition.> >> I> also have a very much older book by Stéphane
Leduc (1912) Biologie>> >> synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals
except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do>>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on> >
thegoodwill of the Académie?
Of course not. In any case, both Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Gut Hervé were>
retired, so they didn't have jobs. Stéphane Leduc died many years ago>
(1935-ish, I think). Since yesterday I've looked at a couple of novels>
I have out from the library (different authors, different publishers):>
both have accents on captal letters.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French.
A completely general, but false, claim.
Yet it is subscribed to by the Académie.
In that case it's an example of Do As I Say, not Do As I Do. This is
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Le terme église prend une majuscule lorsqu’il désigne l’institution ou
l’ensemble des fidèles : l’Église catholique (ou absolument l’Église),
les Églises protestantes, etc. La minuscule est réservée au bâtiment.
More to the point, this is what the Académie said in September as a
Post by Peter T. Daniels
La cédille, en français, sert à garder au c le son « s » devant a, o,
u. Au moyen âge, on a parfois utilisé à cette même fin le digramme cz
(faczon), mais plus souvent le digramme ce (faceon), qui ne s’est
conservé que dans douceâtre.
La cédille a été empruntée à l’espagnol par l’imprimeur Geoffroy Tory,
en 1529, dans un traité de calligraphie et de typographie. Son usage ne
s’est répandu que lentement.
Il convient de conserver ce signe diacritique au C majuscule tout comme
les accents doivent être conservés sur les majuscules.
I suspect that you've either misread it or you're using an outdated document.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-13 18:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
[ ... ]
But "correct" has nothing whatsoever to do with it. The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French. Both in handwriting
and in print. To such a degree that the Academy gelt the need to futilely
wave its hands about it.
It just so happens that I have a book in French sitting on my desk:>>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Enzymologie moléculaire et cellulaire, by Jeannine Yon-Kahn and
Guy>> >> Hervé, published by a serious academic publisher, EDP
Sciences. It> >> puts> accents systematically on capitals, including À
as a preposition.> >> I> also have a very much older book by Stéphane
Leduc (1912) Biologie>> >> synthétique. It puts accents on all capitals
except À.
Just two examples, I know, so they may be part of the 0.001% that do>>
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
that, but I don't believe it.
Just read the quotations from the Académie. They list all sorts of sinners
in this matter.
Is it possible that the jobs of French enzymologists depend on> >
thegoodwill of the Académie?
Of course not. In any case, both Jeannine Yon-Kahn and Gut Hervé were>
retired, so they didn't have jobs. Stéphane Leduc died many years ago>
(1935-ish, I think). Since yesterday I've looked at a couple of novels>
I have out from the library (different authors, different publishers):>
both have accents on captal letters.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
The fact is that
accents are omitted from capital letters in French.
A completely general, but false, claim.
Yet it is subscribed to by the Académie.
In that case it's an example of Do As I Say, not Do As I Do. This is
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Le terme église prend une majuscule lorsqu’il désigne l’institution ou
l’ensemble des fidèles : l’Église catholique (ou absolument l’Église),
les Églises protestantes, etc. La minuscule est réservée au bâtiment.
More to the point, this is what the Académie said in September as a
Post by Peter T. Daniels
La cédille, en français, sert à garder au c le son « s » devant a, o,
u. Au moyen âge, on a parfois utilisé à cette même fin le digramme cz
(faczon), mais plus souvent le digramme ce (faceon), qui ne s’est
conservé que dans douceâtre.
La cédille a été empruntée à l’espagnol par l’imprimeur Geoffroy Tory,
en 1529, dans un traité de calligraphie et de typographie. Son usage ne
s’est répandu que lentement.
Il convient de conserver ce signe diacritique au C majuscule tout comme
les accents doivent être conservés sur les majuscules.
I suspect that you've either misread it or you're using an outdated document.
So who's talking about cedillas? The paragraph quoted by someone above,
about acutes etc., includes a list of categories of sinners who don't
bother to write the accents on the capital letters.
Peter Moylan
2018-10-14 02:18:14 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:50:37 PM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
More to the point, this is what the Académie said in September as
La cédille, en français, sert à garder au c le son « s » devant
a, o, u. Au moyen âge, on a parfois utilisé à cette même fin le
digramme cz (faczon), mais plus souvent le digramme ce (faceon),
qui ne s’est conservé que dans douceâtre. La cédille a été
empruntée à l’espagnol par l’imprimeur Geoffroy Tory, en 1529,
dans un traité de calligraphie et de typographie. Son usage ne
s’est répandu que lentement. Il convient de conserver ce signe
diacritique au C majuscule tout comme les accents doivent être
conservés sur les majuscules.
I suspect that you've either misread it or you're using an outdated document.
So who's talking about cedillas?
You might have missed the last bit of what he quoted: "tout comme les
accents doivent être conservés sur les majuscules".
The paragraph quoted by someone above, about acutes etc., includes a
list of categories of sinners who don't bother to write the accents
on the capital letters.
Similarly, in English-speaking countries you'll find rants against
people who don't use apostrophes correctly.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-10-14 03:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:50:37 PM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
More to the point, this is what the Académie said in September as
La cédille, en français, sert à garder au c le son « s » devant
a, o, u. Au moyen âge, on a parfois utilisé à cette même fin le
digramme cz (faczon), mais plus souvent le digramme ce (faceon),
qui ne s’est conservé que dans douceâtre. La cédille a été
empruntée à l’espagnol par l’imprimeur Geoffroy Tory, en 1529,
dans un traité de calligraphie et de typographie. Son usage ne
s’est répandu que lentement. Il convient de conserver ce signe
diacritique au C majuscule tout comme les accents doivent être
conservés sur les majuscules.
I suspect that you've either misread it or you're using an outdated document.
So who's talking about cedillas?
You might have missed the last bit of what he quoted: "tout comme les
accents doivent être conservés sur les majuscules".
The paragraph quoted by someone above, about acutes etc., includes a
list of categories of sinners who don't bother to write the accents
on the capital letters.
Similarly, in English-speaking countries you'll find rants against
people who don't use apostrophes correctly.
Or commas.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-10-10 14:10:49 UTC
Permalink
Le mercredi 10 octobre 2018 05:17:19 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 19:08:53 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 14:13:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écr
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Le mardi 9 octobre 2018 05:30:20 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a Ã
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Le lundi 8 octobre 2018 21:27:21 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This is the header on an ad from Encyclopaedia Britannica
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes tru
e from false results
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Go
ogle's
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby help
ing
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-
snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
I'd overlooked that.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is
not a word.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Not a French word either.
Google Translate tells me that, with the addition of an expendabl
e little
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter T. Daniels
mark over the final letter, it is. If it were written in all-caps
,
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
In other words, if ifs and buts...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
POSSIBILITE, you couldn't deny it.
Yes I could: the correct form is POSSIBILITÉ.
According to reliable style guides, the only accent that cannot legi
timately
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
be omitted on a capital letter (as in a headline, say) is the grave
in the
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
preposition à.
I don't know what "reliable style guides" you're referring to, but
l'Imprimerie nationale, l'Académie française and "le Grevis
se" all
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
prescribe accented capitals - can they really beat that?
How about headlines in run-of-the-mill newspapers?
Especially from before computer typesetting made just about anything poss
ible.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
In the case of PTD, obviously the reliable style guide is the most worn
out one the library had lying around when he learned French in 1970 in
the US.
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on fo
r
Post by Peter T. Daniels
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
Accentuation des majuscules (sommaire)
*On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majus
cules soit
flottant*. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine Ã
 
l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains supprimen
t tous
les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pou
r
réduire les frais de composition.
Il convient cependant d’observer qu’*en français, lâ
€™accent a pleine valeur
orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la
prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même p
our le
tréma et la cédille*.
*On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquemen
t les
capitales accentuées, _y compris la préposition À_, comme le font bien
sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l
’Académie
française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aus
si
l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, et
c.* Quant aux
textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs au
teurs,
dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérÃ
ªt à suivre
également cette règle.
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuat
ion-des-majuscules-em-strong)
That agrees, pretty much, with what the Chicago Manual and Hart's Rules
(38th edition) say. Section 10.41 (15the edition) of the Chicago
Manual says exactly the opposite of what PTD said: "accented capitals
are available in most software and most fonts, and they should appear
where needed in English works, especially in works whose readers may
not be familiar with French typographic usage." I think he may have
lost a "not" somewhere (easy to do, and I do it embarrassingly often)
or inserted one where it shouldn't be.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-10-10 18:29:06 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
By 1970 my French-learning was three years in the past, having gone on for
ten years. Among many others,
the Chicago Manual of Style, of course.
Is that a joke? Here's what the only relevant authorities say (emphasis
[snip]
Post by b***@aol.com
(http://www.academie-francaise.fr/questions-de-langue#5_strong-em-accentuation
-des-majuscules-em-strong)

Eh? That academy has no authority whatsoever
about English typographic usage,
or idem for any other language

Jan
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-10-09 11:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"One Click. Endless Possibilites.
Except it's not in French, it's in English. "Possibilites" is not a word.
Don't be silly. Any fule kno Possibilites is an alternative for Canadian
(eh? eh?)
bill van
2018-10-09 05:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
In that case, they should have said "Identify false search results in
just one click."
b***@aol.com
2018-10-09 14:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
In that case, they should have said "Identify false search results in
just one click."
Agreed, that would have been more accurate (hence my rewording) based
on the above article. However, it doesn't take much of a stretch of
the imagination to switch from "identify" to "find". (I did, and the
article just bore me out.)
Harrison Hill
2018-10-09 16:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by bill van
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
In that case, they should have said "Identify false search results in
just one click."
Agreed, that would have been more accurate (hence my rewording) based
on the above article. However, it doesn't take much of a stretch of
the imagination to switch from "identify" to "find". (I did, and the
article just bore me out.)
No no no! The "article...bore you out"?

If the article were a drill it could "bore you out", exposing your
hollowness.

If the article were dull it might "bore you out", exposing your
ennui.

This article "bears you out" Shirley?
Harrison Hill
2018-10-09 17:06:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harrison Hill
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by bill van
Post by b***@aol.com
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Find false search results in just one click."
No, they're not offering a service that distinguishes true from false results
(typo in original headline).
No typo. What it means is that the extension supplements Google's
featured "snippets" with accurate information, thereby helping
https://www.wired.com/story/britannica-insights-fix-google-snippets/
In that case, they should have said "Identify false search results in
just one click."
Agreed, that would have been more accurate (hence my rewording) based
on the above article. However, it doesn't take much of a stretch of
the imagination to switch from "identify" to "find". (I did, and the
article just bore me out.)
No no no! The "article...bore you out"?
If the article were a drill it could "bore you out", exposing your
hollowness.
If the article were dull it might "bore you out", exposing your
ennui.
This article "bears you out" Shirley?
Correcting myself, it would have "borne you out".
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