Discussion:
Public school vs. high school
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Quinn C
2019-12-21 16:42:58 UTC
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In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.

Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
--
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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Peter Young
2019-12-21 17:24:53 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Spains Harden
2019-12-21 17:48:27 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
Katy Jennison
2019-12-21 18:23:03 UTC
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Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works: 'high school = grades 9-12, ie
teenagers, who might be expected to vape instead of smoking, whereas
'public school' = kindergarten-grade 5, ie age 6-11, an age when they're
not expected to vape and therefore it's newsworthy when they do.
--
Katy Jennison
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-21 19:45:28 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Yes, but it's just 'Arrison flaunting his ignorance: what do expect?
Post by Katy Jennison
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works: 'high school = grades
9-12, ie teenagers, who might be expected to vape instead of smoking,
whereas 'public school' = kindergarten-grade 5, ie age 6-11, an age
when they're not expected to vape and therefore it's newsworthy when
they do.
--
athel
HVS
2019-12-21 23:14:11 UTC
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On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 12:30:01 PM UTC-8, Spains Harden
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 7:45:33 PM UTC, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
On Saturday, December 21, 2019 at 5:25:08 PM UTC, Peter
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons
"public schools" are
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Peter Young
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of
synonym.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
We have a "High School" close to us which is
private...aka...public.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make
sense, because
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Katy Jennison
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Yes, but it's just 'Arrison flaunting his ignorance: what do expect?
I can't bring myself down to to the level of stupidity that would
allow me to answer this. A high school can't be a public school?
Laura, Katy?
Ontario's public school system includes Kindergarten (don't know how
many years), elementary (Grades 1 to 6), middle school (7 and 8)
and secondary school (9 to 12). In ordinary discourse, middle school
may also be referred to as junior high, and secondary school
as high school.
bill, looked it up
The Middle School/Junior High level didn't exist when I went through
the system in Ottawa in the late 1950s and the 1960s.

"Public School" was kindergarten to Grade 8; "High School" was Grades
9-13. The terms were official - they were part of the schools' names
- rather than colloquial.

Cheers, Harvey
Lewis
2019-12-21 20:14:44 UTC
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Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
--
"You never really understand a person until you see things from his
point of view, until you climb inside of his skin and walk around
in it."
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-21 23:37:09 UTC
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Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2019-12-22 00:45:48 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
This article
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/durham-region-public-schools-vaping-fines-warnings-tickets-1.5287608
refers to "public schools" in the Durham (Ontario) school district.
While it does not specifically refer to fees vs free, the number of
schools and the use of "district" indicates to me that "public" is
used in the same sense in Ontario as it is in Orlando: the free
school system.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Bennett
2019-12-22 17:28:51 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
I believe I've heard "public school" used to mean "elementary school"
in BC - that is grades 1 - 6 or 8, which fits with "high school or
upper classes of public school".
--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI Vancouver BC
peterbb (at) telus.net
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vpsboat.com
Quinn C
2019-12-22 19:26:55 UTC
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Yes, at least two people have confirmed that "public school" used to be
a normal way in Ontario to refer to the grades before high school.

Probably similar to "Volksschule" (people's school) in Germany, which
was hanging around when I went to school in the 1970s but wasn't
official any more.

A Volksschule would normally have been grades 1-8, and anything after
that would have been optional and paying. In my time, everybody went to
elementary school for grade 1-4, then onto one of three types of
secondary school, for grades 5-9 (the new minimum), 5-10 or 5-13
(meanwhile reduced to 12).
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-22 19:38:16 UTC
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Post by Quinn C
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not at
all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Yes, at least two people have confirmed that "public school" used to be
a normal way in Ontario to refer to the grades before high school.
Probably similar to "Volksschule" (people's school) in Germany, which
was hanging around when I went to school in the 1970s but wasn't
official any more.
A Volksschule would normally have been grades 1-8, and anything after
that would have been optional and paying. In my time, everybody went to
elementary school for grade 1-4, then onto one of three types of
secondary school, for grades 5-9 (the new minimum), 5-10 or 5-13
(meanwhile reduced to 12).
And so, we affirm the great lesson of alt.usage.english:
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.

bill
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-22 20:00:50 UTC
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[]
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Hopefully some form of resolution will be achieved soon.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.
Whereas some go in for deliberate misunderstanding; sometimes giving
hilarious results.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
RH Draney
2019-12-22 20:39:12 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Hopefully some form of resolution will be achieved soon.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.
Whereas some go in for deliberate misunderstanding; sometimes giving
hilarious results.
And then there was the character played by Emil Jannings in Der Blaue
Engel...he was an English teacher, which is not to say that he was a
teacher who was English, but he taught English in a German Gymnasium,
which is not to say that he was a gym teacher, but taught in a high
school, which is the translation of the German "Hochschule" which refers
to a college....

Geez, no wonder they started two world wars....r
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-23 07:28:51 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
[]
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Hopefully some form of resolution will be achieved soon.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.
Whereas some go in for deliberate misunderstanding; sometimes giving
hilarious results.
And then there was the character played by Emil Jannings in Der Blaue
Engel...he was an English teacher, which is not to say that he was a
teacher who was English, but he taught English in a German Gymnasium,
which is not to say that he was a gym teacher, but taught in a high
school, which is the translation of the German "Hochschule" which refers
to a college....
Geez, no wonder they started two world wars....r
"Gymnasium" in German or Dutch, and possibly some Scandinavian countries,
means the level of the education system that prepares its students
for university. My sense is that it's not another term for high school,
but a level that some countries have or had between high school and
higher education. But I imagine some of these terms mean different
things in different places.

bill, what else is new?
Quinn C
2019-12-23 16:49:36 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by RH Draney
And then there was the character played by Emil Jannings in Der Blaue
Engel...he was an English teacher, which is not to say that he was a
teacher who was English, but he taught English in a German Gymnasium,
which is not to say that he was a gym teacher, but taught in a high
school, which is the translation of the German "Hochschule" which refers
to a college....
Geez, no wonder they started two world wars....r
"Gymnasium" in German or Dutch, and possibly some Scandinavian countries,
means the level of the education system that prepares its students
for university. My sense is that it's not another term for high school,
but a level that some countries have or had between high school and
higher education.
Well, I entered a Gymnasium starting grade 5. But yes, that meant that
they thought I'd probably be among those going to university
eventually.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
But I imagine some of these terms mean different
things in different places.
bill, what else is new?
Vater is vet?
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-23 21:21:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by RH Draney
And then there was the character played by Emil Jannings in Der Blaue
Engel...he was an English teacher, which is not to say that he was a
teacher who was English, but he taught English in a German Gymnasium,
which is not to say that he was a gym teacher, but taught in a high
school, which is the translation of the German "Hochschule" which refers
to a college....
Geez, no wonder they started two world wars....r
"Gymnasium" in German or Dutch, and possibly some Scandinavian countries,
means the level of the education system that prepares its students
for university. My sense is that it's not another term for high school,
but a level that some countries have or had between high school and
higher education.
Well, I entered a Gymnasium starting grade 5. But yes, that meant that
they thought I'd probably be among those going to university
eventually.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
But I imagine some of these terms mean different
things in different places.
bill, what else is new?
Vater is vet?
Was he army, navy or airforce?
--
Sam Plusnet
HVS
2019-12-23 23:39:03 UTC
Reply
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-snip -
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Quinn C
Post by b***@shaw.ca
bill, what else is new?
Vater is vet?
Was he army, navy or airforce?
"You must be a pole-vaulter"

"No, I'm German - but how did you know my name is Walter?"

Cheers, Harvey
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-22 20:42:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.
Whereas some go in for deliberate misunderstanding; sometimes giving
hilarious results.
You underestimate aue.
Some will go to great lengths to seek out any possible shadow of a hint
of ambiguity.
--
Sam Plusnet
Quinn C
2019-12-22 21:19:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Words mean different things in different places, but on a good day
we can nearly understand each other.
Whereas some go in for deliberate misunderstanding; sometimes giving
hilarious results.
You underestimate aue.
Some will go to great lengths to seek out any possible shadow of a hint
of ambiguity.
Everything can be misunderstood, if you just apply yourself a bit.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 00:34:15 UTC
Reply
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Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.

Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-23 21:25:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
--
Sam Plusnet
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-23 21:38:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
--
Jerry Friedman
Lanarcam
2019-12-23 21:42:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
In France (does that count?) a public school is run by the state
and a private school is run by a private institution, often a church
but not always. Is that not transparent?
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 23:38:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make
sense, because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't
be different. Ken Blake's explanation is the one that
works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that
is not at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools,
but most of this thread has been about what "public school" means
everywhere except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the
term just about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound
to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way
it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that that's the
meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not transparent everywhere
in the US.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Mark Brader
2019-12-24 00:27:45 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school.
Of course, it means that too. Did you not notice when I referred to
high schools "in the public-school system" earlier? The meaning depends
on whether you're talking about the student's grade level or which school
system you mean, and this is typically obvious.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We are informed many things,
***@vex.net | some of them correct." --Greg Goss
Tony Cooper
2019-12-24 04:10:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:38:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make
sense, because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't
be different. Ken Blake's explanation is the one that
works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that
is not at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools,
but most of this thread has been about what "public school" means
everywhere except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the
term just about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound
to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way
it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that that's the
meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not transparent everywhere
in the US.
I don't see that anyone has said it's a primary school. We attend
public or private schools from the time we enter school until we leave
high school. The word "primary" is the word that is not used much in
the US, and there doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off of when the
grade ceases to be a primary school grade.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-12-24 04:24:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:38:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was
bound to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in
the way it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the
US it means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that
that's the meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not
transparent everywhere in the US.
I don't see that anyone has said it's a primary school. We attend
public or private schools from the time we enter school until we
leave high school. The word "primary" is the word that is not used
much in the US, and there doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off of
when the grade ceases to be a primary school grade.
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it
now isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the
upper classes of public school.
This made no sense to me, and it looks as if it made no sense to Quinn
either. The penny didn't drop until someone explained that in some
places a public school is a school that's not a high school.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Lewis
2019-12-24 04:51:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:38:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was
bound to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in
the way it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the
US it means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that
that's the meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not
transparent everywhere in the US.
I don't see that anyone has said it's a primary school. We attend
public or private schools from the time we enter school until we
leave high school. The word "primary" is the word that is not used
much in the US, and there doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off of
when the grade ceases to be a primary school grade.
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it
now isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the
upper classes of public school.
This made no sense to me, and it looks as if it made no sense to Quinn
either. The penny didn't drop until someone explained that in some
places a public school is a school that's not a high school.
CBC is Canadian Broadcasting Company. And Canada is a bit odd in that
each province had quite different terms and school setups in the past (I
think they are mostly the same now). Evidently either the person
speaking misspoke, or was from somewhere else, or Ottawa has (had?) a
peculiar naming system.

Then a bunch of people made some entirely wrong comments about how
schools work int eh US. Tony and I have posted several times each trying
to correct this, but people are still getting it wrong.

US Public schools are rarely *called* Public School, though in New York
City it is common for the elementary schools to be called PS #. I am
sure this happens in other cities, but it is not the norm.

The general pattern for a school name is <NAME> School Level.

So, Washington Elementary, Lincoln Jr High, East High School. Sometimes
other words are used like Academy, Charter, Collegiate, Preparatory,
etc. Or a name may be entirely descriptive (Denver School of the Arts).

Nothing in the name tells you that the school is public, and it is
possible that it is not.

Regis High School is private, George Washington High School is public.
Denver Academy is private, Collegiate Prep Academy is public.

It is a reasonably good bet that if a school is named for a saint, it is
private, but I wouldn't risk a lot of money on it.
--
Ninety percent of true love is acute, ear-burning embarrassment.
--Wyrd Sisters
Tony Cooper
2019-12-24 06:08:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 15:24:10 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:38:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was
bound to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in
the way it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the
US it means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that
that's the meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not
transparent everywhere in the US.
I don't see that anyone has said it's a primary school. We attend
public or private schools from the time we enter school until we
leave high school. The word "primary" is the word that is not used
much in the US, and there doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off of
when the grade ceases to be a primary school grade.
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it
now isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the
upper classes of public school.
This made no sense to me, and it looks as if it made no sense to Quinn
either. The penny didn't drop until someone explained that in some
places a public school is a school that's not a high school.
Yeah, right, but where does "primary school" enter that part of the
discussion?

However, "someone" was wrong if they explained that "in some
places a public school is a school that's not a high school" if the
reference is to the US. High schools can be public schools.

In much of the US, the upper classes of a public school that is not a
high school would be 7th and 8th graders (aged 13 and 14).

Quinn's quote was about a Canadian school (Ontario), though.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-24 16:48:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 10:38:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was
bound to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in
the way it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the
US it means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that
that's the meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not
transparent everywhere in the US.
I don't see that anyone has said it's a primary school. We attend
public or private schools from the time we enter school until we
leave high school. The word "primary" is the word that is not used
much in the US, and there doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off of
when the grade ceases to be a primary school grade.
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it
now isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the
upper classes of public school.
This made no sense to me, and it looks as if it made no sense to Quinn
either. The penny didn't drop until someone explained that in some
places a public school is a school that's not a high school.
Canada is a different country.

Ken Blake
2019-12-24 15:28:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make
sense, because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't
be different. Ken Blake's explanation is the one that
works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that
is not at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools,
but most of this thread has been about what "public school" means
everywhere except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the
term just about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound
to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way
it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school.
I can't speak for the entire US, but yes, that's what it means to me,
and what I've heard in the parts of the US I've lived in.
Post by Peter Moylan
(And I think that that's the
meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not transparent everywhere
in the US.
Right!
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-24 16:01:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make
sense, because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't
be different. Ken Blake's explanation is the one that
works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that
is not at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools,
but most of this thread has been about what "public school" means
everywhere except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the
term just about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound
to cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way
it's applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school. (And I think that that's the
meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not transparent everywhere
in the US.
I believe all of those many responses are from Ken Blake.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-24 16:46:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It means
a school that's public.
Yet so many of the responses in this thread have said that in the US it
means what I would call a primary school.
You may find that those were only the responses from Ken Blake, who
erroneously took the NYC abbreviation "P.S." used with the numbers
of the elementary schools to indicate that (only) elementary schools
were called "Public School."

Chicago's elementary schools aren't numbered; each one is named for
some (often local) celebrity. Happily, one near my apartment in the
Uptown neighborhood is named for Frederic Goudy, the type designer.
Post by Peter Moylan
(And I think that that's the
meaning that triggered this thread.) So it's not transparent everywhere
in the US.
Sam Plusnet
2019-12-24 01:07:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Right. It distinguishes those schools (Primary?) from the others (like
High schools?) which are also public - but aren't called a public school.

Is that right?
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2019-12-24 04:22:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Right. It distinguishes those schools (Primary?) from the others (like
High schools?) which are also public - but aren't called a public school.
Is that right?
No. We attend either a public or private high school. We don't use
Ute word "Public" in the name of the public high school, but they are
in the public school system.

What we do do is use either "private" or "parochial" in describing a
non-public school although parochial schools are private (fee
schools).

Just to name three high schools in this area: Lyman High School
(public), Lake Highland High School (private), and Bishop Moore High
School (parochial).

In this area, we don't have numbered grade schools as Indianapolis
did. One I attended was P.S. 80. All schools have names: Altamonte
Elementary School, Milwee Middle School, Lyman High School.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Lewis
2019-12-24 04:38:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Right. It distinguishes those schools (Primary?) from the others (like
High schools?) which are also public - but aren't called a public school.
Is that right?
Nope.

I live in Denver, which has Denver Public Schools. This school system
consists of a long list of schools covering all grades from Pre-school
to 12th, in various configurations including some K-8 schools and I
think there are even some 6-12 schools. Some of them are charters, some
are special magnets schools (like Denver School of the Arts or Denver
School of Science and Technology). There is at least one school that is
only ECE (what DPS calls pre-school) and Kindergarten only.

<https://dps.schoolmint.net/school-finder/home?type=Pdf>

Every single one of these schools is a public school.

In the US "public school" means any school that is managed by the
government, usually in the form of a school district, and is paid
through via taxes. Anything else, regardless of grade levels, is a
private school, though private schools run by churches are generally
called parochial schools (though it's possible that term is on the way
out).
--
Clarke's Law: Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic Clark's Law: Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is
indistinguishable from malice Clark Slaw: Anything that has been
severely damaged or destroyed by application of Clark's Law
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-24 16:00:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Right. It distinguishes those schools (Primary?) from the others (like
High schools?) which are also public - but aren't called a public school.
Is that right?
Only for one U.S. poster here, Ken Blake. (Also in Ontario,
which was the subject of Quinn's original question.) I suspect
that terminology isn't used much now. PTD, another New Yorker
who's a bit younger than Ken, doesn't use "public school" that
way, and the New York Department of Education site says,

"If you're new to New York City DOE public schools or need help
with the enrollment process, you've come to the right place!
Year-round, we're here to help. Beat the summer rush and enroll
your child in school now.

"Enroll in 3-K
Enroll in Pre-K
Enroll in Elementary or Middle School
Enroll in High School"

https://www.schools.nyc.gov/enrollment/enrollment-help/new-students

The terms for education before high school--primary school,
elementary school, grade school, grammar school, junior high,
middle school--are more confusing and some are less transparent.
I think that "elementary" will usually be understood as
kindergarten through fifth or sixth grade, "middle school" and
"junior high" as sixth or seventh through eighth or ninth, and
"high school" as ninth or tenth through twelfth.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-24 07:08:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Katy Jennison
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense,
because 'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different.
Ken Blake's explanation is the one that works
Except that he said that is how it works in the US, and that is not
at all how it works in the US.
Has anyone managed to answer Quinn's question about a school in Ontario?
Somewhere along the line there was a mention of Ontario schools, but
most of this thread has been about what "public school" means everywhere
except Ontario.
Still, it's been educational. It has shown that if we use the term just
about anywhere in the world, it will be misunderstood.
Agreed. I always thought the BrE term "Public School" was bound to
cause confusion, but it seems no more transparent in the way it's
applied elsewhere.
It's perfectly transparent everywhere I've been in the U.S. It
means a school that's public.
Yes, but that's what it traditionally meant in England: not that a
Public School was free (after all, "public" and "free" have never been
synonymous) but that it was open to any boy whose father could pay the
fees -- not restricted to princes, sons of dukes, etc.
--
athel
Peter Moylan
2019-12-24 09:26:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Yes, but that's what it traditionally meant in England: not that a
Public School was free (after all, "public" and "free" have never
been synonymous) but that it was open to any boy whose father could
pay the fees -- not restricted to princes, sons of dukes, etc.
You've reminded me that that's how our current government thinks of
universities. There have been bitter complaints that, by judging
students on ability, our universities are discriminating against those
who can afford to pay.

Perhaps that's why they keep putting the fees up: to drive out
competition from the talented students.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-21 22:51:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works: 'high school = grades 9-12, ie
teenagers, who might be expected to vape instead of smoking, whereas
'public school' = kindergarten-grade 5, ie age 6-11, an age when they're
not expected to vape and therefore it's newsworthy when they do.
He's simply wrong (again). Elementary schools in NYC are numbered as "P.S.
#," standing for "public school," but they are not specifically called
that. The other levels under the Board of Education are public junior
high schools and public high schools. High schools have names rather
than numbers: the regular ones were named for people, the specialized
ones for their specialties.

I often wondered what Norman Thomas would think of Norman Thomas High
School being on Park Avenue, the nation's greatest celebration of
capitalism. It occupies the lower floors -- maybe six or so -- of
a (probably) mixed-use tower (a Chicago invention), meaning both
commercial and residential tenants, on lower and upper floors respectively.

(Norman Thomas was the most prominent Socialist after Eugene V. Debs and
ran for president many times.)
Quinn C
2019-12-22 19:57:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
Aren't they speaking BrE, where for historic reasons "public schools" are
in fact schools where fees are payable?
As you suggest, in BrE "public school" and "private school"
are exact synonyms - as opposed to the opposite kind of synonym.
We have a "High School" close to us which is private...aka...public.
If that were the case in this context, it wouldn't make sense, because
'high school' and 'public school' wouldn't be different. Ken Blake's
explanation is the one that works: 'high school = grades 9-12, ie
teenagers, who might be expected to vape instead of smoking, whereas
'public school' = kindergarten-grade 5, ie age 6-11, an age when they're
not expected to vape and therefore it's newsworthy when they do.
You left grades 6-8 hanging in a void there.

Yes, the most natural assumption was that the speaker used "public
school" to refer to the grades before high school - whatever the cutoff
is in that jurisdiction - and I wondered whether such a convention
exists somewhere, and whether it exists in Ontario, specifically.

But I was trying to avoid a leading question, because it could still
mean something else. Ontario has "public" (formerly Protestant) and
"Catholic" school boards, but both operate all levels, so that didn't
give me a clue.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Ken Blake
2019-12-21 18:07:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
In (at least most of) the USA, "public school" (aka "elementary" school)
refers to grade K-6, K-7, K-8, or K-9. After public school usually comes
Jr High School or Middle School. High School is the grades up to 12
after that.

I went to public school from grades 1-6 (I never went to kindergarten).
Then I went to a Jr High School for grade 7. Then my family moved, and
in the new location there were no Jr High Schools and I went to public
school for grade 8. Then grades 9-12 were in High School.

I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
most are now like this:

K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
--
Ken
Phil Hobbs
2019-12-21 18:30:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
In (at least most of) the USA, "public school" (aka "elementary" school)
refers to grade K-6, K-7, K-8, or K-9. After public school usually comes
Jr High School or Middle School. High School is the grades up to 12
after that.
I went to public school from grades 1-6 (I never went to kindergarten).
Then I went to a Jr High School for grade 7. Then my family moved, and
in the new location there were no Jr High Schools and I went to public
school for grade 8. Then grades 9-12 were in High School.
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Round here (NY) K through 5 is "elementary school". I've never
encountered "public school" as a term restricted to the elementary grades.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 01:46:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Phil Hobbs
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
In (at least most of) the USA, "public school" (aka "elementary" school)
refers to grade K-6, K-7, K-8, or K-9. After public school usually comes
Jr High School or Middle School. High School is the grades up to 12
after that.
I went to public school from grades 1-6 (I never went to kindergarten).
Then I went to a Jr High School for grade 7. Then my family moved, and
in the new location there were no Jr High Schools and I went to public
school for grade 8. Then grades 9-12 were in High School.
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Round here (NY) K through 5 is "elementary school". I've never
encountered "public school" as a term restricted to the elementary grades.
I don't know if it's still the case, but when I went to school in NYC in
the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 8th grades, the schools were identified by
number, preceded by the letters PS (which stood for "Public School"). I
can't remember the number of my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade school, but in
the 8th grade, I went to PS36.
--
Ken
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-21 18:35:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
In (at least most of) the USA, "public school" (aka "elementary" school)
refers to grade K-6, K-7, K-8, or K-9. After public school usually comes
Jr High School or Middle School. High School is the grades up to 12
after that.
I went to public school from grades 1-6 (I never went to kindergarten).
Then I went to a Jr High School for grade 7. Then my family moved, and
in the new location there were no Jr High Schools and I went to public
school for grade 8. Then grades 9-12 were in High School.
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
I've never heard "public school" used for elementary school except
for New York City (PS 112, etc.). Elsewhere it's always meant the
regular tax-funded schools that are open to all.

The names of many districts end in "PS", such as Albuquerque
Public Schools, APS.
--
Jerry Friedman
Tony Cooper
2019-12-21 19:29:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
RH Draney
2019-12-21 21:39:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
Also "Grammar School"....r
Tony Cooper
2019-12-21 21:59:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
Also "Grammar School"....r
Anyone who attended a grammar school would know that I get a fail for
an errant apostrophe above.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 01:49:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms. I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-12-22 03:38:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Hmmm.  Dunno if I agree with that.  My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school".  What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms. I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
Whereas my Elementary/Grade/Grammar School was private (under the
auspices of the local Baptist church) and my Junior High and High
Schools (in two other states) were public...if you're going to call
"regional" on me, the region in question covered southern California,
the Seattle area, and southwestern New Mexico....r
Ross
2019-12-22 04:16:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Hmmm.  Dunno if I agree with that.  My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school".  What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms. I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
Whereas my Elementary/Grade/Grammar School was private (under the
auspices of the local Baptist church) and my Junior High and High
Schools (in two other states) were public...if you're going to call
"regional" on me, the region in question covered southern California,
the Seattle area, and southwestern New Mexico....r
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level. I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private". Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-22 04:23:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Hmmm.  Dunno if I agree with that.  My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school".  What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms. I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
Whereas my Elementary/Grade/Grammar School was private (under the
auspices of the local Baptist church) and my Junior High and High
Schools (in two other states) were public...if you're going to call
"regional" on me, the region in question covered southern California,
the Seattle area, and southwestern New Mexico....r
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level. I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private". Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
I understand "primary school" to be synonymous with "elementary
school", but today in British Columbia, everyone calls it
elementary school.

bill
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-22 14:36:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink

Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level. I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private". Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
I understand "primary school" to be synonymous with "elementary
school", but today in British Columbia, everyone calls it
elementary school.
When I was little, "primary" meant grades 1-3, maybe with the
addition of kindergarten. Google still finds it meaning
K-3 or pre-K to 3, but mostly for private schools. Here's
one where it refers to public schools:

"You may seek Florida certification to teach preschool in one of
two areas:

"Pre-kindergarten/primary education (age 3-grade 3)
"Preschool education (birth-age 4)"

https://www.preschoolteacher.org/florida/

I was never clear on how this matched up with "secondary" meaning
high school.
--
Jerry Friedman
Cheryl
2019-12-22 17:00:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level. I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private". Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
I understand "primary school" to be synonymous with "elementary
school", but today in British Columbia, everyone calls it
elementary school.
When I was little, "primary" meant grades 1-3, maybe with the
addition of kindergarten. Google still finds it meaning
K-3 or pre-K to 3, but mostly for private schools. Here's
"You may seek Florida certification to teach preschool in one of
"Pre-kindergarten/primary education (age 3-grade 3)
"Preschool education (birth-age 4)"
https://www.preschoolteacher.org/florida/
I was never clear on how this matched up with "secondary" meaning
high school.
I knew "primary" as meaning "K-3" but in practice, the term wasn't used
much since most places didn't have enough children to have a separate
primary school. In fact, common terms for schools seemed to depend a lot
on what buildings they had available, although I do remember a period
when the authorities insisted that they weren't going to have Junior
High Schools any more, since calling them "intermediate schools" didn't
imply their inferiority to high schools, or something like that. But in
practice, there wasn't much uniformity in nomenclature, and some
communities would lump their grades 7, 8 and 9 in with the elementary
(including primary) classes, and others would put them in with the
so-called senior high. I'd bet some split them too, depending on the
size of school buildings available. I went to what is now often called
an "academy", with high school grades k-11 (no 12 in existence) under
one roof, and a door in the corridor with 9-11 classrooms acting as a
separation from the younger children. The two branches had different
administrations, too. Nowadays, if they have the appropriate buildings,
they try to put K-6 in an elementary school, 7-9 in a junior
high/intermediate and 10-12 in a senior high (but called Level 1, 2 and
3, with a Level 4 for those who don't finish in 3 years), but that
distinction still isn't carved in stone.

I think it you have anything to do with pre-school, it's officially
called Early Childhood Education these days.
--
Cheryl
Tony Cooper
2019-12-22 17:25:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
I think it you have anything to do with pre-school, it's officially
called Early Childhood Education these days.
In Florida, the term "pre-K" has given way to "VPK". (Voluntary
Prekindergarten Education Program) VPK is free for kids 4 or 5
years-old. VPK is half days - 8:30/11:30 or 12:00/3:00 - and held in
public school buildings.

The teachers have a bachelor's or higher in elementary education and
have been certified to teach if the program is in a public school, but
I think the rules are different for charter schools.

They actually test the kid's progress in general knowledge,
phonological awareness, mathematics, and oral language/vocabulary.

Two grandsons are VPK alumna of VPK and the third is a current
"student". (public school)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2019-12-23 02:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
Post by Jerry Friedman
When I was little, "primary" meant grades 1-3, maybe with the
addition of kindergarten. Google still finds it meaning
K-3 or pre-K to 3...
I knew "primary" as meaning "K-3" but in practice, the term wasn't used
much since most places didn't have enough children to have a separate
primary school....
For me, too, "primary" ends at grade 3, and does not imply a separate
building.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Do right; have fun; make money."
***@vex.net --Ian Darwin on Yuri Rubinsky (1952-96)
Lewis
2019-12-22 22:29:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ross
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level. I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private". Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
I understand "primary school" to be synonymous with "elementary
school", but today in British Columbia, everyone calls it
elementary school.
When I was little, "primary" meant grades 1-3, maybe with the
addition of kindergarten. Google still finds it meaning
K-3 or pre-K to 3, but mostly for private schools. Here's
"You may seek Florida certification to teach preschool in one of
"Pre-kindergarten/primary education (age 3-grade 3)
"Preschool education (birth-age 4)"
https://www.preschoolteacher.org/florida/
I was never clear on how this matched up with "secondary" meaning
high school.
Because the divisions used to be Primary (1-3), Elementary (4-8), High
(9-12).

At least I think that's right.

Licensing is different for different ranges. My wife's certification
covers K-8, ut not preschool and not high school. Preschool is a
separate certification, but I believe it can (optionally?) cover up to
grade 3.

Of course, in the US each state is slightly different, and the rules do
not apply to private schools where any numpty can be a teacher.

When my Jr High became a middle school many of the teachers left the
school to teach at the high school, which they could easily do since
they'd had to get a high school qualification in order to teach 9th
grade.
--
Just give us a kiss to celebrate here, today.
Quinn C
2019-12-22 23:30:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Pre-kindergarten/primary education (age 3-grade 3)
"Preschool education (birth-age 4)"
https://www.preschoolteacher.org/florida/
I was never clear on how this matched up with "secondary" meaning
high school.
Because the divisions used to be Primary (1-3), Elementary (4-8), High
(9-12).
At least I think that's right.
Licensing is different for different ranges. My wife's certification
covers K-8, ut not preschool and not high school. Preschool is a
separate certification, but I believe it can (optionally?) cover up to
grade 3.
So many pitfalls. I thought "kindergarten" and "preschool" were
synonyms, depending on the jurisdiction. I didn't know both could exist
in the same place.

Here in Quebec, depending on the school, you could have one or two
years of préscolaire, usually called kindergarten in English.

The original - German - kindergartens are organizations separate from
the school system. What's usually called "kindergarten" in the
English-speaking world would be "Vorschule", preschool, in German.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
RH Draney
2019-12-23 07:12:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lewis
Licensing is different for different ranges. My wife's certification
covers K-8, ut not preschool and not high school. Preschool is a
separate certification, but I believe it can (optionally?) cover up to
grade 3.
So many pitfalls. I thought "kindergarten" and "preschool" were
synonyms, depending on the jurisdiction. I didn't know both could exist
in the same place.
Not at all...kindergarten was the year before first grade; preschool (a
fancy term for what we called "nursery school") was the year before
kindergarten....r
Jerry Friedman
2019-12-23 14:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lewis
Licensing is different for different ranges. My wife's certification
covers K-8, ut not preschool and not high school. Preschool is a
separate certification, but I believe it can (optionally?) cover up to
grade 3.
So many pitfalls. I thought "kindergarten" and "preschool" were
synonyms, depending on the jurisdiction. I didn't know both could exist
in the same place.
Not at all...kindergarten was the year before first grade; preschool (a
fancy term for what we called "nursery school") was the year before
kindergarten....r
Or two years before.

When I experienced nursery school and kindergarten, kindergarten
was public, in the regular elementary-school building. Public
pre-school was not available. I believe that may have changed
somewhat, but K-12 is still different from pre-school.
--
Jerry Friedman
Rich Ulrich
2019-12-23 19:32:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 06:46:33 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by RH Draney
Post by Quinn C
Post by Lewis
Licensing is different for different ranges. My wife's certification
covers K-8, ut not preschool and not high school. Preschool is a
separate certification, but I believe it can (optionally?) cover up to
grade 3.
So many pitfalls. I thought "kindergarten" and "preschool" were
synonyms, depending on the jurisdiction. I didn't know both could exist
in the same place.
Not at all...kindergarten was the year before first grade; preschool (a
fancy term for what we called "nursery school") was the year before
kindergarten....r
Or two years before.
When I experienced nursery school and kindergarten, kindergarten
was public, in the regular elementary-school building. Public
pre-school was not available. I believe that may have changed
somewhat, but K-12 is still different from pre-school.
That matches my usages. Until this thread, I never thought
that "public schools" (excepting UK) referred to anything
but the contrast between public (government funded) and
private.

From growing up in Texas, I had the solid impression that
schools were mostly 1-8, 9-12. K's were not on my radar;
my small town did not have kindergarten. Grade school (1-8)
and high school football (very important, very organized)
seemed to depend upon those lines. I was a bit nonplussed
when I eventually learned about "junior highs" that were
7-9, and other divisions.

"Elementary school", a term seldom used, I identified with
the existing 1-8. Ditto for "grammar school", a term I heard
even less.
--
Rich Ulrich
Tony Cooper
2019-12-23 21:17:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 14:32:49 -0500, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
"Elementary school", a term seldom used, I identified with
the existing 1-8. Ditto for "grammar school", a term I heard
even less.
There's an elementary school on a very busy street near me in
Altamonte Springs FL. A few years ago they replaced the old sign with
a brick wall and an inset that identified the school as "Altamonte
Elementery School".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-23 21:43:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
There's an elementary school on a very busy street near me in
Altamonte Springs FL. A few years ago they replaced the old sign with
a brick wall and an inset that identified the school as "Altamonte
Elementery School".
How many inches above the surrounding terrain is this High Mountain School?
Tony Cooper
2019-12-24 06:17:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 13:43:04 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Tony Cooper
There's an elementary school on a very busy street near me in
Altamonte Springs FL. A few years ago they replaced the old sign with
a brick wall and an inset that identified the school as "Altamonte
Elementery School".
How many inches above the surrounding terrain is this High Mountain School?
The city is actually named after a village in New York. The first
person of European background to settle there named it after Altamont
NY; a village near where he grew up. That was in 1870. Altamont
NY's elevation is 451 ft, 366 feet higher than the school's.

Sometime after the city was founded an "e" was added to Altamont,
probably by mistake. The city is pronounced "Alta-mont", but those
not local usually see it and say "Alta-Monty" or "Alta-Montay".

If "Altamonte" bothers you, the city of Mt Dora - just a few miles
away - would bother you even more. Elevation 184 ft. It is not true,
though, that water boils faster in Mt Dora than in Altamonte Springs.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2019-12-23 16:41:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Here in Quebec, depending on the school, you could have one or two
years of préscolaire, usually called kindergarten in English.
The level, when children take part in it, is usually called
"maternelle" in French. "Préscolaire" is the more abstract term that
you find in the qualification of the teachers etc.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 17:32:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
Hmmm.  Dunno if I agree with that.  My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school".  What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms. I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
Whereas my Elementary/Grade/Grammar School was private (under the
auspices of the local Baptist church) and my Junior High and High
Schools (in two other states) were public...if you're going to call
"regional" on me, the region in question covered southern California,
the Seattle area, and southwestern New Mexico....r
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common
in NZ, but I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary"
and "elemntary" for the year 1-6 level.
I've heard "primary school, but only seldom." To me, in the US it's
another synonym for "public school," "elementary school," and "grade
school."
Post by Ross
I don't know
which was official (British Columbia 1950s-60s).
Otherwise, much as reported by others, 7-8 was junior
high, 9-12 senior high. And "public school" was not
used for a level, but meant "not private".
That's its literal meaning, of course. But as I said, in my experience
in the US, the term referred to grade levels, not to its literal meaning.
Post by Ross
Private
would have included both Catholic and a few
English-style single-sex schools (St George's for boys,
York House and Crofton House for girls, were the
only ones I knew of).
--
Ken
Lewis
2019-12-22 22:39:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I've heard "primary school, but only seldom." To me, in the US it's
another synonym for "public school," "elementary school," and "grade
school."
None of these terms imply the school is or is not public. There might be
a slight tendency for a "primary school" to be more likely to be
private. Perhaps.

A primary school is a school that covers the primary grades, It may also
cover grade 4-5 (or 4-6 thought that is less common now while it was
standard when I was in school) in which case it could also be called an
elementary school or a grade school, but it would be odd to call a K-5
school a "primary school". It may be public or private.

High School also does not imply public or private (in the US, in the US
sense).
--
Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
an get used to the idea.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 01:13:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Has anyone mentioned "primary school" here? It's common in NZ, but
I'm pretty sure I grew up knowing both "primary" and "elemntary" for
the year 1-6 level.
In my school days in Australia it was simple. Primary school was Grades
1-6 or K-6, and secondary school was Forms 1 to 6 (later called years 7
to 12).

I went to a kindergarten at age 3 or 4, and that was separate from the
school system. In my first year of primary school (the year that came
before grade 1) the class didn't seem to have an official name, but
everyone called it "Grade Bubs".

That was in Victoria. Other states had systems that were largely, but
not precisely, similar. In those days transferring between states was
troublesome, because of syllabus inconsistency.

It's become more complicated since then. I think K-3 is now called
"Infants". Many schools have something they call "Middle School" to ease
the transition between primary and secondary school, but the precise
definition of that varies from school to school.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-22 04:16:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.

bill
Tony Cooper
2019-12-22 05:55:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.
bill
In the US, if "grade school" is used, it is only for grades up to
Middle School or High School. Not all cities have Middle Schools, so
some students will start in high school after Grade School.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Ross
2019-12-22 19:52:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.
bill
In the US, if "grade school" is used, it is only for grades up to
Middle School or High School. Not all cities have Middle Schools, so
some students will start in high school after Grade School.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
I never heard the term "middle school" until I visited
Japan in 1963. It's a literal translation of "chu:gakko:",
which covers years 7-8 -- what I would have called
"junior high". New Zealand has "intermediate schools"
for the same thing. (Though some primary schools go 1-8.)
I've seen at least one "middle school" in Auckland, but it
was a private school associated with some international
network. Is Germany the source of this term? (Japan was
strongly influenced by German models when organizing its
modern educational system.)
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-22 20:12:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
I never heard the term "middle school" until I visited
Japan in 1963. It's a literal translation of "chu:gakko:",
which covers years 7-8 -- what I would have called
"junior high". New Zealand has "intermediate schools"
for the same thing. (Though some primary schools go 1-8.)
I've seen at least one "middle school" in Auckland, but it
was a private school associated with some international
network. Is Germany the source of this term? (Japan was
strongly influenced by German models when organizing its
modern educational system.)
At St. Hilda's & St. Hugh's, grades 7-8 were called the Middle School.
The Reverend Mother Ruth, accompanied by Sr. Mary Margaret, had left
Toronto in, IIRC, 1951 for the more tolerant New York City; she was
known to be half Negro and evidently faced racial discrimination in
the convent in Toronto.

At one point she suggested adding a Grade 13 to the high school. It
may be the only issue on which the Trustees demurred.
Quinn C
2019-12-22 20:35:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.
bill
In the US, if "grade school" is used, it is only for grades up to
Middle School or High School. Not all cities have Middle Schools, so
some students will start in high school after Grade School.
I never heard the term "middle school" until I visited
Japan in 1963. It's a literal translation of "chu:gakko:",
which covers years 7-8
7-9, at least since I'm aware of those things, i.e. 1980s.
Post by Ross
-- what I would have called
"junior high". New Zealand has "intermediate schools"
for the same thing. (Though some primary schools go 1-8.)
I've seen at least one "middle school" in Auckland, but it
was a private school associated with some international
network. Is Germany the source of this term? (Japan was
strongly influenced by German models when organizing its
modern educational system.)
That's hard to say because Germany was quite heterogeneous at the time.
I'd expect Prussia to be the natural go-to at the time, but Prussia
didn't have "Mittelschule".

In any case, three-phase school systems aren't common in Germany; the
principal distinction is always of primary and secondary schools only.
As explained in another post, it used to be that all of compulsory
education (grade 1-8) was in one school, and nowadays, most students
stay in the same school (type) from grade 5 (or 7, regionally) until
the end of their school career, unless they switch program.

I always assumed that the modern Japanese system was based on the US
one. The name "middle school" could still be from before that. It's not
uncommon to have "middle" and "high school" at the same institution, so
maybe originally, some schools were only going to grade 9, and others
to grade 12, and then the name "middle school" for the former could be
a German concept.
--
(\_/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 01:25:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
(Though some primary schools go 1-8.)
That reminds me of something else. In my parents' day, as far as I know,
all Australian schools went to grade 8, after which you left school. For
more advanced schooling you had to live in a big city. In small towns
there was no such option, unless your parents were rich enough to send
you to a boarding school.

Both of my parents left school after grade 8, because they had no
choice. My father later joined the Post Office as a trainee telephone
technician, and he got some good in-house education that was, as far as
I could tell from his old textbooks, comparable to a technical college
diploma. My mother had to wait until all the children had grown up, and
then she went back to high school at the age of about 50, sitting in the
same classes as adolescents.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2019-12-23 10:45:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Ross
(Though some primary schools go 1-8.)
That reminds me of something else. In my parents' day, as far as I know,
all Australian schools went to grade 8, after which you left school. For
more advanced schooling you had to live in a big city. In small towns
there was no such option, unless your parents were rich enough to send
you to a boarding school.
Both of my parents left school after grade 8, because they had no
choice. My father later joined the Post Office as a trainee telephone
technician, and he got some good in-house education that was, as far as
I could tell from his old textbooks, comparable to a technical college
diploma. My mother had to wait until all the children had grown up, and
then she went back to high school at the age of about 50, sitting in the
same classes as adolescents.
Schools here tried to provide up to grade 11, although that wasn't
always possible and if children from such communities were to get more
education, they had to leave since commuting to school by bus wasn't
always possible due to the lack of roads. I suppose a few families could
send their children to boarding school, but a more common arrangement
was to send them to relatives or some kind of informal boarding
arrangement in a larger community. Grade 8 was a big cut-off. The school
I went to prided itself on its academic standards and didn't even offer
the official "basic" curriculum for those who couldn't handle the
academic program. So many students stayed in grade 8 until they dropped
out. They didn't drop out immediately because that was after the
introduction of the "Baby Bonus", and parents got a subsidy for their
children until they left school or reached, I think it was, 18. My grade
8 year was kind of memorable - especially the time one of the "big boys"
got in a fight with a teacher and desks were knocked over.

I grew up in a company town, and I am told that in the early days, there
were subsidized classes for adults. There still are, actually, although
they're often used by younger adults than the ones back in the day, and
you have to either pay your own way or qualify for a government subsidy.
But they were unusual in the early years when that town was established.
My grandfather on that side of the family had very little formal
education, although he had enough, combined with what he picked up as an
adult, to run a machine shop. My grandmother completed school - years
later she had repro copies of the old Royal Readers she learned from.
They were at quite a high standard compared to many modern text books.
--
Cheryl
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 13:00:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
The school I went to prided itself on its academic standards and
didn't even offer the official "basic" curriculum for those who
couldn't handle the academic program.
The opposite seemed to happen here. When I was an engineering academic,
we considered that the most important entry qualification was excellence
in mathematics. At the time, the mathematics subjects for the final
high-school public exams were called 2-unit, 3-unit, and 4-unit
mathematics, with each of these being a subset of the next. (That is, a
3-unit candidate did the 2-unit content, plus some extra material, and
similarly for 4-unit.) (There was also a "general mathematics" subject,
but that was designed for people with no real talent in mathematics.)
These days the terminology has changed, but the basic concept is the
same: you can enrol for the basic mathematics, but you can supplement
that with advanced topics.

We weren't allowed to specify prerequisites - a silly restriction, in my
view - but we could specify "advisory prerequisites", with the implicit
understanding that anyone without the advisory prerequisites would
probably fail first year. Based on our understanding of the syllabus, we
set the advisory prerequisites as "4-unit mathematics preferred, but we
have a pathway (using dumbed-down subjects) for those who only did 3-unit".

Alas, we soon discovered that the schools in small towns, and even
moderate-sized towns, didn't even teach anything beyond the 2-unit
subject. Their default assumption was that their pupils were probably
not going to proceed on to university, so there was no point in offering
advanced topics. As a "regional" university, we were expected to draw
many of our students from such towns. In the end, we had to introduce a
dumbed-down first year, with the hope that such students could catch up
by the time they entered second year.

It worked out better than expected. Only the very top pupils from those
small towns entered university, and they had enough drive and
intelligence to make up for the lack in their high school education. I
could appreciate that, because I too had come from a small-town school,
and had to do some catching up. Indeed I observed that the high
first-year failure rates came largely from the "privileged" schools that
sent many people to university. The students from those schools had had
so much special coaching that they couldn't handle a situation where
they had to think for themselves without being propped up.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Cheryl
2019-12-23 14:34:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 2019-12-23 9:30 a.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
<snip>
Post by Peter Moylan
Alas, we soon discovered that the schools in small towns, and even
moderate-sized towns, didn't even teach anything beyond the 2-unit
subject. Their default assumption was that their pupils were probably
not going to proceed on to university, so there was no point in offering
advanced topics. As a "regional" university, we were expected to draw
many of our students from such towns. In the end, we had to introduce a
dumbed-down first year, with the hope that such students could catch up
by the time they entered second year.
It worked out better than expected. Only the very top pupils from those
small towns entered university, and they had enough drive and
intelligence to make up for the lack in their high school education. I
could appreciate that, because I too had come from a small-town school,
and had to do some catching up. Indeed I observed that the high
first-year failure rates came largely from the "privileged" schools that
sent many people to university. The students from those schools had had
so much special coaching that they couldn't handle a situation where
they had to think for themselves without being propped up.
As a largely rural province, we frequently had concerns about getting
rural kids, with narrower educational opportunities, into higher
education, and my school was unusual. My former grade 5 teacher, when
she progressed to higher positions in the provincial government and
university, was a strong proponent of the idea that if you give rural
kids a solid basic background, they'll make up what they might have
missed very quickly when they got the chance. She was from a tiny rural
community, too. The alternative view was that we (rural kids) were all
inbred and mentally slow, with one person affiliated with the
university, although fortunately not in a senior position, saying more
or less privately that our low suicide rate showed how little we
appreciated the importance of education and the consequences of failure.

My two younger siblings were still in school when the family moved to
the US, and my parents were told that the programs they took were
unusually difficult, when they paralleled the normal academic program at
home. This was before the changes when we went over to grade 12. Most
academic programs required the "Academic" English Language, English
Literature and Math, a foreign language (usually French, which
technically wasn't foreign), and at least two "Lab Sciences" - biology,
chemistry and physics were lab sciences, earth science (or related
courses like environmental science etc) weren't. And you did World
History (if you were hoping to continue your education) or Geography (if
you weren't). My school could only manage two high school science
courses, and most unusually chose chemistry and physics, much to the
annoyance of girls who wanted to be nurses and would have to make up
biology some other way. I have gotten the impression over the years that
chemistry was the kind of red-headed stepchild in that list, and a lot
of schools would offer biology, physics and environmental science for
the less academic. Then nursing schools started requiring chemistry...
To make matters worse, you had to offer two years of chemistry, and they
had to be offered in a particular order (for obvious reasons, you
couldn't take the more advanced course before the introductory one; this
is important in chemistry although less so in many of the other courses
in the then-new curriculum) and some schools could only offer them every
second year. Planning schedules, both for the schools and for individual
students, got more and more complicated. Nowadays, I believe, they have
a fairly extensive list of courses offered online, but I don't know
about that.

I also encountered the results of schools that did offer a basic
educational program, and also started it very early. I knew students who
were "bad" at math in, say, middle elementary grades, and who were then
put in a special program. By the time they got to high school and they
and their families realized the limitations of this (I think cooking was
the only trade that accepted students from this program), they were so
far behind the kids in the regular math program that catching up was
nearly impossible - I knew one boy who tried; most didn't. When I think
the school I went to was too narrow and rigid, I also remember that
everyone had at least the chance to tackle the academic curriculum.
There were a LOT of children of my generation who went on to get
education their parents didn't even dream of.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-23 15:32:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
As a largely rural province, we frequently had concerns about getting
rural kids, with narrower educational opportunities, into higher
education, and my school was unusual. My former grade 5 teacher, when
she progressed to higher positions in the provincial government and
university, was a strong proponent of the idea that if you give rural
kids a solid basic background, they'll make up what they might have
missed very quickly when they got the chance. She was from a tiny rural
community, too. The alternative view was that we (rural kids) were all
inbred and mentally slow, with one person affiliated with the
university, although fortunately not in a senior position, saying more
or less privately that our low suicide rate showed how little we
appreciated the importance of education and the consequences of failure.
I wonder how different Nova Scotia (specifically Cape Breton) was from
Newfoundland in those respects at the beginning of the 20th century.
Last week I obtained a copy of the entry in the birth register of my
father's birth in Sydney in November 1908. I was struck by the number
of obvious errors in the entry, and I suspect that the person who made
it was not highly educated. I realize, of course, that Sydney is not
rural, not now and not then. It turned out that I was very lucky to get
the record at all, as the Nova Scotia Archives site said that their
birth records start in October 1908.
--
athel
Cheryl
2019-12-23 18:45:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
As a largely rural province, we frequently had concerns about getting
rural kids, with narrower educational opportunities, into higher
education, and my school was unusual. My former grade 5 teacher, when
she progressed to higher positions in the provincial government and
university, was a strong proponent of the idea that if you give rural
kids a solid basic background, they'll make up what they might have
missed very quickly when they got the chance. She was from a tiny
rural community, too. The alternative view was that we (rural kids)
were all inbred and mentally slow, with one person affiliated with the
university, although fortunately not in a senior position, saying more
or less privately that our low suicide rate showed how little we
appreciated the importance of education and the consequences of failure.
I wonder how different Nova Scotia (specifically Cape Breton) was from
Newfoundland in those respects at the beginning of the 20th century.
Last week I obtained a copy of the entry in the birth register of my
father's birth in Sydney in November 1908. I was struck by the number of
obvious errors in the entry, and I suspect that the person who made it
was not highly educated. I realize, of course, that Sydney is not rural,
not now and not then. It turned out that I was very lucky to get the
record at all, as the Nova Scotia Archives site said that their birth
records start in October 1908.
It was probably very similar. It may have had somewhat more government
infrastructure; I don't know a lot about Nova Scotian history. I always
knew that in Newfoundland official government registrations of birth,
marriage and death came very late compared to many other places in North
America. Traditionally, the churches kept records - and churches
sometimes burned down, taking records with them. Eventually, these
records were copied to form the basis of the government records -
hand-copied from old records that may not have been in the best
condition, assuming they existed at all. Errors occurred. And not
everyone was anywhere near a church. The typical rural settlement
pattern seemed to be that a group of fishermen and their families would
move to a promising area - maybe they'd be fishing on their own, maybe
they'd be working as a "guardien" for the seasonal French fishery, or
something similar with the English. Government and religious authority -
and educational resources - came later, if it came at all before the
settlement vanished. Various Christian denominations arrived - in the
bigger settlements, their co-coreligionists would establish churches and
schools, and as word got back about the lamentable state of the rural
regions, missionaries arrived - but again, they didn't reach all the
rural folk, much less record their vital statistics. Rural settlements
that survived and grew often had on person - often a priest or
"merchant" - usually a trader; the truck system lasted remarkably long
in some places -who acted as an unofficial community leader on the
occasions that the locals wanted to lobby the powers in St. John's, or
needed someone to, say, organize the money raised following a
particularly bad tragedy.

Those ancestors were remarkably tough, resilient and whatever some
people say, surprisingly mobile and willing to move for work. But they
weren't that great at making and keeping records.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-12-23 22:25:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Cheryl
[ … ]
Those ancestors were remarkably tough, resilient and whatever some
people say, surprisingly mobile and willing to move for work. But they
weren't that great at making and keeping records.
My grandfather was certainly "surprisingly mobile and willing to move
for work". As the eldest son (of six) he wasn't trained in anything
useful for earning his living. In 1891 he went to run a ranch in
Menteith, Manitoba (why Menteith? Because that was as far as the
railway went), but that wasn't a great success. When his father died in
1896 he went back to England, and then went to farm in Cape Colony
(where the weather was nicer than in Manitoba) and participated in the
Boer War. In about 1905 he went back to Canada (Nova Scotia this time)
to work as an accountant of some kind for a coal-mining company in
Sydney. My grandmother, with whom he had been secretly engaged for
about 10 years, went in 1908 with an aunt as chaperone, and they got
married in Halifax on the day that she arrived (as they couldn't afford
two hotel rooms). My father was born nine months later. At some point
he (my grandfather) acquired tuberculosis, which prevented him from
participating in the 1st World War. When I think of all that it brings
it home to me how easy my own life has been.
--
athel
Cheryl
2019-12-24 10:47:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Cheryl
[ … ]
Those ancestors were remarkably tough, resilient and whatever some
people say, surprisingly mobile and willing to move for work. But they
weren't that great at making and keeping records.
My grandfather was certainly "surprisingly mobile and willing to move
for work". As the eldest son (of six) he wasn't trained in anything
useful for earning his living. In 1891 he went to run a ranch in
Menteith, Manitoba (why Menteith? Because that was as far as the railway
went), but that wasn't a great success. When his father died in 1896 he
went back to England, and then went to farm in Cape Colony (where the
weather was nicer than in Manitoba) and participated in the Boer War. In
about 1905 he went back to Canada (Nova Scotia this time) to work as an
accountant of some kind for a coal-mining company in Sydney. My
grandmother, with whom he had been secretly engaged for about 10 years,
went in 1908 with an aunt as chaperone, and they got married in Halifax
on the day that she arrived (as they couldn't afford two hotel rooms).
My father was born nine months later. At some point he (my grandfather)
acquired tuberculosis, which prevented him from participating in the 1st
World War. When I think of all that it brings it home to me how easy my
own life has been.
My ancestors didn't cover quite that much territory! Once they'd left
England, they moved around rural Newfoundland and, when things were
really bad, to the "Boston States" or sometimes to Montreal. More recent
generations tended to move to Toronto, and later, western Canada.
Tuberculosis was rampant in Newfoundland. I knew that in theory - I'm
old enough to have been the recipient of the BCG vaccination program,
part of anti-TB campaigns that started with mobile clinics on ships with
X-ray equipment and transportation to "the San", now long closed. It
seems more real when you're dabbling in family history, and realize just
how many of the people in the 19th century died of TB. Young adults,
particularly - they often died of TB or accident (usually shipwreck) if
male or childbirth if female. Those who survived these dangers often
made it to a ripe old age, though. And died of "old age"; causes of
death were often a little vague, although not in the case of TB, which
seemed to be identified as such. Infants also often died of what seem
today to be odd causes - teething, or various terms which on being
looked up seem to mean hunger or failure to thrive or something similar.
--
Cheryl
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 17:28:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Our experience is different. In my experience grades 1-6 or 1-8 are
called public schools or elementary schools. They are synonyms. If the
location has Jr Highs schools, that's what grades 7-9 are called, not
public schools. If the location has middle schools, its grades are
called middle schools, not public schools. And after the middle school
or Jr High School, the remaining grades up to 12 are called High School,
not public school

To me, despite the literal meaning of the word "public," the term
"public school" has nothing to do with that meaning and refers to the
lower grades.

Yes, I know "public school" has a very different meaning in the UK.
Perhaps also in Canada, where you are. My comments are just about the
term in the US.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.
Again, our experience is different. To me "grade school" is another
synonym for "public school"--the grades up to 6 or 8.
--
Ken
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-22 18:39:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I think
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Hmmm. Dunno if I agree with that. My son and daughter went to high
school at a "private school" (Catholic) and my grandson's go to high
school at a "public school". What you are calling a "Public School"
above I would call an Elementary School today, but it was "Grade
School" in my day.
There might be regional differences. To me, "Public School" and
"Elementary School" are synonyms.
Not exactly, I think. Public schools would generally include
Grades 1 to 12, but elementary schools, while public, would cover
only Grades 1 to 6. That is, all elementary schools would be
public schools, but not all public schools would be elementary schools.
Our experience is different. In my experience grades 1-6 or 1-8 are
called public schools or elementary schools. They are synonyms. If the
location has Jr Highs schools, that's what grades 7-9 are called, not
public schools. If the location has middle schools, its grades are
called middle schools, not public schools. And after the middle school
or Jr High School, the remaining grades up to 12 are called High School,
not public school
To me, despite the literal meaning of the word "public," the term
"public school" has nothing to do with that meaning and refers to the
lower grades.
Has he "killfiled" the entire group? Many people besides me have corrected
him on this.
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, I know "public school" has a very different meaning in the UK.
Perhaps also in Canada, where you are. My comments are just about the
term in the US.
Has he "killfiled" the entire group? Many people besides me have corrected
him on this.
Post by Ken Blake
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
I also know the term "Grade School,"
but I can't remember hearing anyone using it.
I think that's more generic. If you told me you were in Grade School,
with or without capitals, I would think you were somewhere in the
the Grades 1 to 12 system. You'd have to specify the grade or
another designation such as "elementary school" for me to know
what level you meant.
Again, our experience is different. To me "grade school" is another
synonym for "public school"--the grades up to 6 or 8.
Has he "killfiled" the entire group? Many people besides me have corrected
him on this.
Lewis
2019-12-21 20:11:37 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Quinn C
In a CBC interview on vaping, the interviewed pointed out that it now
isn't limited to high schools any more, but also occurs in the upper
classes of public school.
Can someone make sense of this opposition of high school and public
school, given what I believe is an Ontario background?
In (at least most of) the USA, "public school" (aka "elementary" school)
No. Public school does not mean elementary school in any way.
Post by Ken Blake
refers to grade K-6, K-7, K-8, or K-9. After public school usually comes
Jr High School or Middle School. High School is the grades up to 12
after that.
Most middle or high or junior schools are also public schools. Very few
Americans go to private schools. There is also "parochial schools" which
are technically private but are grouped separately.
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
Public Schools:
K-5 Elementary
6-8 Middle
9-12 High

Any school that does not charge tuition is a public school. Many
universities are also public, but will be called public universities.
--
To read makes our speaking English good.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-12-21 22:53:29 UTC
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Post by Lewis
There is also "parochial schools" which
are technically private but are grouped separately.
"Parochial" is simply the adjective of "parish." They are Roman Catholic.
Schools operated by other denominations are private schools.
Mark Brader
2019-12-21 23:33:08 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School...
Whereas over in Guelph,

K-6 Public School
7-8 Senior Public School
9-13 High School

and all the actual high schools in the public-school system had
"Collegiate-Vocational Institute" in their names.

As far as I know there were no distinct schools for grades 7-8;
it's just that they were only offered at certain public schools.
--
Mark Brader | "I have a feeling... we're very close to solving this thing."
Toronto | "What gives you that idea?"
***@vex.net | "Simple. There's only one chapter after this one."
| --John Blumenthal
Cheryl
2019-12-22 01:59:18 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School...
Whereas over in Guelph,
K-6 Public School
7-8 Senior Public School
9-13 High School
and all the actual high schools in the public-school system had
"Collegiate-Vocational Institute" in their names.
As far as I know there were no distinct schools for grades 7-8;
it's just that they were only offered at certain public schools.
And the usage lingered on in Ontario at least until the last time I
chatted with one of my Ontario cousins. He asked if I taught in a public
school, and I stared at him blankly and said that pretty well all of the
schools in Newfoundland were public schools, so of course I did. We
eventually figured out that he was using "public school" top mean what I
called "elementary school". This must have been thirty years ago, but I
guess the usage lingers. He was born, raised and educated in Kingston,
Ontario.
--
Cheryl
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 01:51:44 UTC
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-snip -
Post by Ken Blake
I went to public school from grades 1-6 (I never went to
kindergarten).
Post by Ken Blake
Then I went to a Jr High School for grade 7. Then my family moved,
and
Post by Ken Blake
in the new location there were no Jr High Schools and I went to
public
Post by Ken Blake
school for grade 8. Then grades 9-12 were in High School.
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I
think
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School? Or is 13 a typo for 12?

Changing the 13 to 12, it was the same when I went to school in NYC in
the 1950s.
(These were official names: I attended "Vincent Massey Public School"
and Hillcrest High School ".)
Cheers, Harvey
--
Ken
RH Draney
2019-12-22 03:40:08 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I
think
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School?  Or is 13 a typo for 12?
It's common knowledge that Canada's schools go to thirteen...something
to do with the earlier harvest, I think....r
Cheryl
2019-12-22 10:40:45 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I
think
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School?  Or is 13 a typo for 12?
It's common knowledge that Canada's schools go to thirteen...something
to do with the earlier harvest, I think....r
Ontario's schools, not Canada's, used to go to grade 13. And I don't
know the reason. Newfoundland's schools used to go to Grade 11, which I
think had something to do with an earlier school system and perhaps
influences from a British system. If I had to guess, I'd say a British
system extant in the 1800s, although I always wondered if our "junior
matric" (aka "high school graduation") had any connection to British A
levels.

We now have a high school program that ends with grade 12. I'm not sure
the changeover was an improvement. I suppose it simplified matters for
people going to university in other parts of Canada, and it was supposed
to offer a broader education because of the extra year. I thought at the
time that the "broader" was at the expense of the depth of the previous
program, and that the new and broader curriculum, implemented in a
largely rural province, was best suited to large high schools in a
province with so many small rural schools, which struggled to offer the
essentials. The new program was also supposed to mean that high school
graduates were more mature than those in the past, but I thought it
prolonged adolescent behaviour. But I wasn't asked about the change, and
it's certainly not going to change back now.
--
Cheryl
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 17:17:29 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Ken Blake
I of course don't know every school district in the USA, but I
think
Post by Ken Blake
K-5 Public School
6-8 Middle School
9-12 High School
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School?  Or is 13 a typo for 12?
It's common knowledge that Canada's schools go to thirteen...something
to do with the earlier harvest, I think....r
OK, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't common knowledge to me.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2019-12-22 21:53:14 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by RH Draney
9-13? Grade 13 in High School?  Or is 13 a typo for 12?
It's common knowledge that Canada's schools go to thirteen...
No they don't. It's just that we're all over 35 here.
Post by Ken Blake
OK, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't common knowledge to me.
The last year of Grade 13 in Ontario was about 2003, and I heard that
Ontario was the last to have it. The transition created a double
cohort, high-school grads from grades 12 and 13 all trying to get
into university at the same time. One of them was one of my nieces.

You know, we have all talked about all these things before.
--
Mark Brader | "A private business wants to make a profit, so they
Toronto | aren't going to do things to hurt their customers.
***@vex.net | Therefore, this must have been a good thing for you...
| you owe them a thank-you note." --Alan Hamilton

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Peter Moylan
2019-12-23 01:27:20 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
You know, we have all talked about all these things before.
You could say that about just about any AUE thread.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-12-23 09:43:59 UTC
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On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 01:27:20 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Mark Brader
You know, we have all talked about all these things before.
You could say that about just about any AUE thread.
There's nothing new under the sun, Gungadin.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
b***@shaw.ca
2019-12-22 04:21:19 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School? Or is 13 a typo for 12?
Several Canadian provinces, including Ontario and Alberta, at one time
or another had three-year and four-year options for completing high
school. The four-year option had a Grade 13. The three-year route
was generally aimed at university entry, while the four-year route
could either be a slower route to university admittance or be aimed
at teaching job skills. Some were entry routes to technical schools.

bill
Mark Brader
2019-12-22 05:19:48 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
9-13? Grade 13 in High School? Or is 13 a typo for 12?
Several Canadian provinces, including Ontario and Alberta, at one time
or another had three-year and four-year options for completing high
school. The four-year option had a Grade 13.
Four-year and five-year programs in Ontario -- 9 to 13. Graduating
in 4 years got you an SSGD; in 5 years, an SSHGD (secondary school
honors graduation diploma).
Post by b***@shaw.ca
The three-year route
was generally aimed at university entry, while the four-year route
could either be a slower route to university admittance or be aimed
at teaching job skills. Some were entry routes to technical schools.
In Ontario you generally needed grade 13 to get into university, and
the 4-year high-school programs were for people who *weren't* intending
to do so.
--
Mark Brader "So the American government went to IBM
Toronto to come up with a data encryption standard
***@vex.net and they came up with...?" "EBCDIC!"

My text in this article is in the public domain.
CDB
2019-12-22 13:52:28 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
9-13? Grade 13 in High School? Or is 13 a typo for 12?
Several Canadian provinces, including Ontario and Alberta, at one
time or another had three-year and four-year options for completing
high school. The four-year option had a Grade 13.
Four-year and five-year programs in Ontario -- 9 to 13. Graduating
in 4 years got you an SSGD; in 5 years, an SSHGD (secondary school
honors graduation diploma).
Post by b***@shaw.ca
The three-year route was generally aimed at university entry, while
the four-year route could either be a slower route to university
admittance or be aimed at teaching job skills. Some were entry
routes to technical schools.
In Ontario you generally needed grade 13 to get into university, and
the 4-year high-school programs were for people who *weren't*
intending to do so.
That's how it was when I was in school. The final exams in that last
year were administered and graded by the province, not by your school,
and the results affected your chances of further progress.

I think the use of "public school" to mean "elementary school" may have
survived from a time when publicly-supported education stopped at grade
nine.
HVS
2019-12-22 15:11:18 UTC
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-snip -
Post by CDB
Post by Mark Brader
In Ontario you generally needed grade 13 to get into university, and
the 4-year high-school programs were for people who *weren't*
intending to do so.
That's how it was when I was in school. The final exams in that last
year were administered and graded by the province, not by your
school,
Post by CDB
and the results affected your chances of further progress.
Yes, it was definitely a pre- University year. (When I did Grade 13
in1969-70, I took just 4 subjects.)

Cheers, Harvey
Ken Blake
2019-12-22 17:34:28 UTC
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Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
In Ottawa (Ontario) in the 1960s, it was K-8 Public School, and 9-13
High School; we didn't have Middle School.
9-13? Grade 13 in High School? Or is 13 a typo for 12?
Several Canadian provinces, including Ontario and Alberta, at one time
or another had three-year and four-year options for completing high
school. The four-year option had a Grade 13. The three-year route
was generally aimed at university entry, while the four-year route
could either be a slower route to university admittance or be aimed
at teaching job skills. Some were entry routes to technical schools.
Yes, RH Draney said much the same thing. I hadn't realized that.
--
Ken
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