Discussion:
Think about it
(too old to reply)
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-13 11:18:57 UTC
Permalink
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-13 13:01:02 UTC
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Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Oh yes I can.
occam
2019-01-13 13:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Think of the midpoint between our solar system and alpha centauri. What
time-related thoughts do you really have? (None.)

Think of 350 million years ago, on earth. Which place are you really
thinking about? (Nowhere.)

Makes you think, dun'it Bozo?
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-13 21:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Think of the midpoint between our solar system and alpha centauri. What
time-related thoughts do you really have? (None.)
Think of 350 million years ago, on earth. Which place are you really
thinking about? (Nowhere.)
Makes you think, dun'it Bozo?
No, the premise can only apply in your own life —— trying to dispell what you object to here with facetious intergalactic absurdity should be beneath you but perhaps not. Again, the notion I'm proposing about thinking of place and time refers to places you've occupied from as long ago as your impressionable youth to as recent as your vague present.
Snidely
2019-01-15 07:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by occam
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the
converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Think of the midpoint between our solar system and alpha centauri. What
time-related thoughts do you really have? (None.)
Think of 350 million years ago, on earth. Which place are you really
thinking about? (Nowhere.)
Makes you think, dun'it Bozo?
No, the premise can only apply in your own life —— trying to dispell what you
object to here with facetious intergalactic absurdity should be beneath you
but perhaps not. Again, the notion I'm proposing about thinking of place and
time refers to places you've occupied from as long ago as your impressionable
youth to as recent as your vague present.
Well, why didn't you say so before?

I would argue that you can't separate time and place in your own
memories in any clean way. The best you can do is to have a set of
snapshots of a particular place at different times, or of different
places you were at [about] the same time.

/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-17 14:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
What became of H. Lacedaemonian?
--
athel
Snidely
2019-01-17 14:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it? Well
hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
What became of H. Lacedaemonian?
Probably off-line distractions. The group feels a little less golden
without her.

/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Snidely
2019-01-17 14:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it? Well
hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
What became of H. Lacedaemonian?
Probably off-line distractions. The group feels a little less golden without
her.
I miss her violinist perspective, among her other contributions.

In TONG, we used to have a symphony musician contributing; his comment
on one conductor was, "Look Up, Fuck Up". That Mike is missed. In
fact, half that group's Texas contingent has wandered away, so my math
expert Kevin is AWOL instead of AOL.

/dps
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 07:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
What became of H. Lacedaemonian?
Probably off-line distractions. The group feels a little less golden
without her.
Yes. That's why I asked.
--
athel
Katy Jennison
2019-01-27 12:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Snidely
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
What became of H. Lacedaemonian?
Presumably too busy being fought over by Menelaus and Paris.
--
Katy Jennison
J. J. Lodder
2019-01-14 08:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the
converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Are you trying to be even sillier about it than Bergson?

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-15 09:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the
converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Are you trying to be even sillier about it than Bergson?
Did you know that Bergson's silly ideas are still taught in some French
schools?

https://tinyurl.com/yapeutjc

Elan vital and all that.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2019-01-15 09:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the
converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Are you trying to be even sillier about it than Bergson?
Did you know that Bergson's silly ideas are still taught in some French
schools?
https://tinyurl.com/yapeutjc
Elan vital and all th>>at.
Yes, of course I know. If he were mercifully forgotten
there would be no point in mentioning him.

The French suffer from an excess of language-based 'rationalisme'.
If you can hold an impressive-sounding 'discourse' about it
there must be something to it, eh?

So it will go on forever,

Jan
Dr. HotSalt
2019-01-15 11:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.

Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences at those times impressed them.

I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?

Is a clock a place?
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
What this means about space-time is compelling.
Your beliefs on the topic tell me some things about your worldview, but they're not all that compelling.


Dr. HotSalt
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-17 13:03:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue, and it is curious why we remember the places we do, particularly the ones that are the most primitive and persistent, and appear to have no particular significance, which would suggest in that instance you became place for somebody or something else, which means I'll see your clock as place, and raise you to a place in Time.
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-17 19:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue, and it is curious why we remember the places we do, particularly the ones that are the most primitive and persistent, and appear to have no particular significance, which would suggest in that instance you became place for somebody or something else, which means I'll see your clock as place, and raise you to a place in Time.
Btw, time has been called natures way of making sure everything doesn't happen at once, and I believe place in space is just natures way of making sure there's not two of us at once.
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2019-01-17 22:58:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue, and it is curious why we remember the places we do, particularly the ones that are the most primitive and persistent, and appear to have no particular significance, which would suggest in that instance you became place for somebody or something else, which means I'll see your clock as place, and raise you to a place in Time.
Btw, time has been called natures way of making sure everything doesn't happen at once, and I believe place in space is just natures way of making sure there's not two of us at once.
The USAF definition of a collision is "two aircraft occupying the
same space simultaneously" (from memory - exact wording may
differ)". This appears to be at odds with both your concepts!
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-01-19 07:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as
one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences
at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I
associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the
passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue, and it is curious why
we remember the places we do, particularly the ones that are the most
primitive and persistent, and appear to have no particular
significance, which would suggest in that instance you became place for
somebody or something else, which means I'll see your clock as place,
and raise you to a place in Time.
Btw, time has been called natures way of making sure everything doesn't
happen at once, and I believe place in space is just natures way of
making sure there's not two of us at once.
The USAF definition of a collision is "two aircraft occupying thesame
space simultaneously" (from memory - exact wording may
differ)". This appears to be at odds with both your concepts!
I learned yesterday that the Earth and a Mars-size planet called Theia
are believed (not yet proved, and still controversial) to have occupied
the same space around 4.5 billion years ago. The consequences were
catastrophic, and bits and pieces continued to rain down for 10 million
years or so. Mr Trump's current efforts to destroy the Earth pale into
insignificance by comparison.
--
athel
Sam Plusnet
2019-01-19 19:00:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I learned yesterday that the Earth and a Mars-size planet called Theia
are believed (not yet proved, and still controversial) to have occupied
the same space around 4.5 billion years ago. The consequences were
catastrophic, and bits and pieces continued to rain down for 10 million
years or so. Mr Trump's current efforts to destroy the Earth pale into
insignificance by comparison.
Steady on there. Let's not offer encouragement.
--
Sam Plusnet
J. J. Lodder
2019-01-19 22:24:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place as
one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences
at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I
associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine the
passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue, and it is curious why
we remember the places we do, particularly the ones that are the most
primitive and persistent, and appear to have no particular
significance, which would suggest in that instance you became place for
somebody or something else, which means I'll see your clock as place,
and raise you to a place in Time.
Btw, time has been called natures way of making sure everything doesn't
happen at once, and I believe place in space is just natures way of
making sure there's not two of us at once.
The USAF definition of a collision is "two aircraft occupying thesame
space simultaneously" (from memory - exact wording may
differ)". This appears to be at odds with both your concepts!
I learned yesterday that the Earth and a Mars-size planet called Theia
are believed (not yet proved, and still controversial) to have occupied
the same space around 4.5 billion years ago. The consequences were
catastrophic, and bits and pieces continued to rain down for 10 million
years or so. Mr Trump's current efforts to destroy the Earth pale into
insignificance by comparison.
The collision having happened is not that controversial.
They are just having fun with their supercomputers
running through various scenarios.

Isotope ratios in moonstones matching the Earth's mantle
is fairly inescapable evidence,

Jan
Dr. HotSalt
2019-01-18 02:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place
as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences
at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I
associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine
the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue,
The converse of your original statement is that one can think of time
without thinking of place.

I was wondering how you meant that.

I have no problem imagining the passage of time within my mind because
I have direct experience of it, with all of Einstein's tongue-in-cheek
relativistic connotations of pretty girls and hot stoves included.

To the point, I can imagine that passage in the presence *or* the
absence of place or events that might or might not occur in such a place.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
and it is curious why we remember the places we do, particularly the
ones that are the most primitive and persistent, and appear to have
no particular significance,
There's always a significance to any memory. You may not recognize it,
or you may be actively (consciously or subcobsciously) repressing the
significance.

Human memory is not logically indexed like computer memory; it is *associative*. We remember things because we associate those things
with an emotional state generated by sensory input of people, places,
objects or events.

(That's why a memory can trigger other memories that are associated
similarly.)

That association is the significance- without it we wouldn't remember
the memory.

The "most primitive" are usually our first memories associated with
a strong emotional state.

The "most persistent" are usually associated with a very strong
emotional state.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
which would suggest in that instance you became place for somebody or
something else,
Our memories of people are similar to our memories of places and
objects with the added strength of our having a specific part of the
brain dedicated to recognizing individuals, and our facility at
evoking strong emotion in others.

Hence we may remember someone who made a particularly strong impression
on us but not the circumstances of our first meeting, or even any
particular interaction with them.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
which means I'll see your clock as place, and raise you to a place in Time.
"Place in time" means nothing without a "mile marker" so to speak- an
event which makes a permanent impression. Yes, that means by evoking an
emotion.

That does not conflict with my assertion that I can think of a period of time without such markers. If you think about it you will see why.

You need to rethink your premise.


Dr. HotSalt
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-18 04:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Post by Dr. HotSalt
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time.
Maybe you can't, but I can.
Others seem to think that it is only possible to "think of" a place
as one saw it at a particular times, in other words as their experiences
at those times impressed them.
I have no trouble abstracting the location from the experiences I
associate with that location.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
Not true of the converse.
What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not permitted to imagine
the passage of time without visualizing a location for time to pass in?
Is a clock a place?
Asking "Is a clock a Place" does beg the issue,
The converse of your original statement is that one can think of time
without thinking of place.
I was wondering how you meant that.
I have no problem imagining the passage of time within my mind because
I have direct experience of it, with all of Einstein's tongue-in-cheek
relativistic connotations of pretty girls and hot stoves included.
To the point, I can imagine that passage in the presence *or* the
absence of place or events that might or might not occur in such a place.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
and it is curious why we remember the places we do, particularly the
ones that are the most primitive and persistent, and appear to have
no particular significance,
There's always a significance to any memory. You may not recognize it,
or you may be actively (consciously or subcobsciously) repressing the
significance.
Human memory is not logically indexed like computer memory; it is *associative*. We remember things because we associate those things
with an emotional state generated by sensory input of people, places,
objects or events.
(That's why a memory can trigger other memories that are associated
similarly.)
That association is the significance- without it we wouldn't remember
the memory.
The "most primitive" are usually our first memories associated with
a strong emotional state.
The "most persistent" are usually associated with a very strong
emotional state.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
which would suggest in that instance you became place for somebody or
something else,
Our memories of people are similar to our memories of places and
objects with the added strength of our having a specific part of the
brain dedicated to recognizing individuals, and our facility at
evoking strong emotion in others.
Hence we may remember someone who made a particularly strong impression
on us but not the circumstances of our first meeting, or even any
particular interaction with them.
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
which means I'll see your clock as place, and raise you to a place in Time.
"Place in time" means nothing without a "mile marker" so to speak- an
event which makes a permanent impression. Yes, that means by evoking an
emotion.
That does not conflict with my assertion that I can think of a period of time without such markers. If you think about it you will see why.
You need to rethink your premise.
Dr. HotSalt
I deliberately avoided any insertion of Freudian significance into the arguments of time, place, and memory because sometimes a cigar and/or a penis is sometimes (or often times) just a cigar or a penis (but not both at the same time because that would assume your USAF definition of "two aircraft occupying the same space simultaneously", which raises the most primitive and persistent memory I have of "walking down a pretty sidewalk street somewhere in LA lined with ivy for about ten feet" and for the life of me still don't know why the hell I recall it but I do, and I'm sure it has something to with Freud, Einstein, time, space and my missing continuum of Nobel Prizes.
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-16 19:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
Time with its human properties has been doubted, but not place; and place only exists when it occurs or is observed in time.
bozo_de_niro@Yahoo.com
2019-01-27 13:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@Yahoo.com
You cannot think of place without thinking of time. Not true of the converse. What this means about space-time is compelling.
I don't know if this hurts or helps my argument but here it is

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