Discussion:
"53 linear miles of shelving" - Vatican Secret Archives
(too old to reply)
occam
2018-05-07 08:07:40 UTC
Permalink
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?

quote:
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vatican’s walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."

The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.

Full article from The Atlantic here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives-artificial-intelligence/559205/
grabber
2018-05-07 08:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six 3-metre
shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf space. I
don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
occam
2018-05-07 09:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by grabber
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"?  A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six 3-metre
shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf space. I
don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
'30 meters' comes from clumsy editing.
Janet
2018-05-07 14:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by grabber
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"?  A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six 3-metre
shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf space. I
don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
'30 meters' comes from clumsy editing.
I thought it was another cover-up lie by the Vatican.

Janet.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
Bart Dinnissen
2018-05-07 20:59:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by occam
Post by grabber
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"?  A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six 3-metre
shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf space. I
don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
'30 meters' comes from clumsy editing.
I thought it was another cover-up lie by the Vatican.
Janet.
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Post by Janet
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Bart Dinnissen
Richard Tobin
2018-05-07 21:58:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.

-- Richard
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 02:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
Not back when Italy used lire, it didn't.
occam
2018-05-08 07:25:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
Not back when Italy used lire, it didn't.
The Lira was made official in early 1800's. For most of the life of
these archives, the currency was probably Papal scudos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coins_in_Italy#Papal_States_scudo
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 07:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
Not back when Italy used lire, it didn't.
Nor, indeed, did Italy or anywhere else.
Post by occam
The Lira was made official in early 1800's. For most of the life of
these archives, the currency was probably Papal scudos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coins_in_Italy#Papal_States_scudo
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-08 07:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,

Jan
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-05-08 07:43:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
They're otherwise too impoverished to manage?
Post by J. J. Lodder
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
Does that apply to every country: i.e. is France, for example, limited
in some way related to its population size?
Post by J. J. Lodder
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
I think I've received euros from all the real countries. I once had a
Slovenian euro given as change in a service station (in Luxemburg, of
all unlikely places). The majority seem to be German.
--
athel
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-08 11:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
They're otherwise too impoverished to manage?
It is hardship, living on postage stamp only.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
Does that apply to every country: i.e. is France, for example, limited
in some way related to its population size?
Yes. There are quota.
There must be, for minting euros is making big money
for national central banks.
They cost a few cents in materials, and are worth euros.
They can't be alowed to flood Euroland for profit.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by J. J. Lodder
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
I think I've received euros from all the real countries. I once had a
Slovenian euro given as change in a service station (in Luxemburg, of
all unlikely places). The majority seem to be German.
As they should. Germany has the largest quota.

Jan
Richard Tobin
2018-05-08 10:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
They give them in change at the Vatican museum, and I spent mine
in Rome.

-- Richard
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-08 11:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
They give them in change at the Vatican museum, and I spent mine
in Rome.
Another good trick to make money, by encouraging museum sales.
If you have no friends who collect, indeed why not just spend them.
Their collector value, if new,
is much higher that their monetary value.
The record seems to be 6600 euro, paid for a one cent coin,
far more than its weight in gold. (a misprint)

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 12:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
They give them in change at the Vatican museum, and I spent mine
in Rome.
In 1993 (it was the 250th anniversary) at Monticello they gave Jefferson
two-dollar bills as change for the $8 admission fee. (Maybe now the
admission fee is $18.) Perhaps they get spent in Charlottesville (though
it seems unlikely); once in the first gas station on I-80 in Ohio -- lower
prices than in Pennsylvania -- when I went in to pay, the person ahead of
me tried to pay for their snack with a two and the cashier was unwilling
to accept it. I bought it from the customer for two ones.
occam
2018-05-08 11:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Richard Tobin
Post by Bart Dinnissen
Ah. You want row 113-344, that's 231 meters times 6, so that's probably
a two-year pass, no?
That will be 300.500.000 lira. Cash, please.
Not Lira. The Vatican issues its own Euros.
And it is an important source of income for them.
Their euros are sold to collectors at more than the nominal value.
This is always the case, for any complete set of (newly mint) euros. The
smaller the country, the greater the value above nominal value. It is
true that the Vatican euro set is worth more than a Luxembourgish set,
which is worth more than a Maltese set, the Cypriot set, and so on.
Post by J. J. Lodder
Fortunately the Euro treaty limites how many they can mint.
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 12:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
For actually paying bills?,

or For actually paying for things?,
Quinn C
2018-05-08 16:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
For actually paying things they use the same non-vatican euros
as everybody else,
For actually paying bills?,
or For actually paying for things?,
Or maybe they have "things" working for them. I wouldn't put it past
them.
--
If you kill one person, you go to jail; if you kill 20, you go
to an institution for the insane; if you kill 20,000, you get
political asylum. -- Reed Brody, special counsel
for prosecutions at Human Rights Watch
Joseph C. Fineman
2018-05-08 00:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by grabber
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six
3-metre shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf
space. I don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
I once saw a library's shelf space expressed in "cubic acres". A
6-dimensional building, presumably, with plenty of space, but pretty
easy to get lost in.
--
--- Joe Fineman ***@verizon.net

||: Bless you, you will be blameless yet, :||
||: For God forgives, and men forget. :||
grabber
2018-05-08 06:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by grabber
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six
3-metre shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf
space. I don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
I once saw a library's shelf space expressed in "cubic acres". A
6-dimensional building, presumably, with plenty of space, but pretty
easy to get lost in.
I get this kind of feeling in statistics if I stop to contemplate a
variance of, say, 1.5 square seconds.
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-08 07:36:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by grabber
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by grabber
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six
3-metre shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf
space. I don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
I once saw a library's shelf space expressed in "cubic acres". A
6-dimensional building, presumably, with plenty of space, but pretty
easy to get lost in.
I get this kind of feeling in statistics if I stop to contemplate a
variance of, say, 1.5 square seconds.
You are in good company.
Leopold Bloom often wonders about '32 feet per second per second',
which is a mythic phrese to him,

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 12:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
You are in good company.
Leopold Bloom often wonders about '32 feet per second per second',
which is a mythic phrese to him,
Gene Wilder's character in *The Producers*? Why would it come up?
J. J. Lodder
2018-05-08 14:26:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
You are in good company.
Leopold Bloom often wonders about '32 feet per second per second',
which is a mythic phrese to him,
Gene Wilder's character in *The Producers*? Why would it come up?
Your secand-hand knowledge is showing again.
FYI, Gene Wilder's character in *The Producers* is named
after the protagonist in James Joyce's Ulysses, Leopold Bloom,
(wikipedia)

Only 39 more days to Bloomsday!

Jan
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 15:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by J. J. Lodder
You are in good company.
Leopold Bloom often wonders about '32 feet per second per second',
which is a mythic phrese to him,
Gene Wilder's character in *The Producers*? Why would it come up?
Your secand-hand knowledge is showing again.
FYI, Gene Wilder's character in *The Producers* is named
after the protagonist in James Joyce's Ulysses, Leopold Bloom,
(wikipedia)
Did you figure that out all by yourself? You needed to look it up??,
Post by J. J. Lodder
Only 39 more days to Bloomsday!
Which even on its centennial was losing some of the appeal of celebrating
it.,
Anders D. Nygaard
2018-05-08 22:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by grabber
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six
3-metre shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf
space. I don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
I once saw a library's shelf space expressed in "cubic acres". A
6-dimensional building, presumably, with plenty of space, but pretty
easy to get lost in.
Alluding, surely, to Scrooge McDuck's Money Bin, containing
3 cubic acres of cash.

/Anders, Denmark.
David Kleinecke
2018-05-09 00:52:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Joseph C. Fineman
Post by grabber
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
Seems an easy one to me. You measure shelf space in metres. Six
3-metre shelves arranged one above another provide 18 metres of shelf
space. I don't know where the 30 metres comes from.
I once saw a library's shelf space expressed in "cubic acres". A
6-dimensional building, presumably, with plenty of space, but pretty
easy to get lost in.
Alluding, surely, to Scrooge McDuck's Money Bin, containing
3 cubic acres of cash.
I've always thought well of the acre-foot which hydrologists use
to measure water in reservoirs and the like.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-07 13:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
?? Six shelves three meters wide are 18 meters of shelves. Where could 30
have come from?
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vatican’s walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives-artificial-intelligence/559205/
What do you think the "VSA" holds on its 53 miles?

At a guess, perhaps everything it was not considered proper for a good
Christian to see -- such as the incomparable holdings of "Oriental"
manuscripts that were scavenged by the peripatetic Jesuits.

And surely also their famous collection of pornography, which presumably
comprises only a very small part of what's on the Index.

When did the modern concept of "classified information" arise?

When a document is declassified, do you suppose it physically moves from
one archive building to another?
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-07 13:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
I agree with grabber.
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vatican’s walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only. Over 1000 researchers a year are given access,
with restrictions, and the article is about a project to OCR the
manuscripts, using trained AI to interpret handwriting, and make the
transcripts publicly accessible. However, all material from after 1939
and material on cardinals' personal matters after 1922 is still secret,
so the limit is much like Britain's 50-100 years.
Post by occam
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives-artificial-intelligence/559205/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Secret_Archives
--
Jerry Friedman
Stefan Ram
2018-05-07 13:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
OED also gives for "secret":

|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
Stefan Ram
2018-05-07 13:29:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
To "keep or remove from the resort of men" in the sense of
denying access to people is so rare that the only other
example I am aware of is Shakespeare:

DUKE
But she I mean is promised by her friends
Unto a youthful gentleman of worth,
And kept severely from resort of men,
That no man hath access by day to her.

- Two Gentlemen of Verona
John Varela
2018-05-07 20:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
And if one were to put something in such a place, it would be
secreted.
--
John Varela
occam
2018-05-08 07:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
And if one were to put something in such a place, it would be
secreted.
By a secretary, of course.
Quinn C
2018-05-08 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by John Varela
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
And if one were to put something in such a place, it would be
secreted.
By a secretary, of course.
Now I wonder how you say "Geheimsekretär" in English.

Translating German Wikipedia: The chaplains of diocesan bishops (in the
Catholic church) are at the same time secret secretaries ...
--
Woman is a pair of ovaries with a human being attached, whereas
man is a human being furnished with a pair of testes.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 17:43:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by John Varela
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
And if one were to put something in such a place, it would be
secreted.
By a secretary, of course.
Now I wonder how you say "Geheimsekretär" in English.
Translating German Wikipedia: The chaplains of diocesan bishops (in the
Catholic church) are at the same time secret secretaries ...
"Private secretary" at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop%27s_chaplain
--
Jerry Friedman
Paul Wolff
2018-05-08 21:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by John Varela
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
As the article and the Wikipedia article explain, the archives are
secret in name only.
|b. Of a place: Removed from the resort of men; retired,
|remote, lonely, secluded, solitary; hence, affording privacy
|or seclusion. Also rarely of time. Chiefly arch.
And if one were to put something in such a place, it would be
secreted.
By a secretary, of course.
Now I wonder how you say "Geheimsekretär" in English.
Translating German Wikipedia: The chaplains of diocesan bishops (in the
Catholic church) are at the same time secret secretaries ...
"Private secretary" at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop%27s_chaplain
I should have thought a 'confidential secretary' was more geheim than a
'private secretary', but if the posts under discussion are real posts
with real titles, my thoughts don't count.
--
Paul
John Varela
2018-05-07 20:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vaticans walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives-artificial-intelligence/559205/
--
John Varela
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-07 21:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
...

To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.

In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 02:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
...
To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.
In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
"Range" fits in their somewhere -- it might be the singular of "stack."
Can one vertical shelving unit be a "bookcase" even though it's not
physically distinct from its neighbors?
GordonD
2018-05-08 12:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
...
To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.
In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
To me a stack of books is piled up on the floor.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-08 16:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by GordonD
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
...
To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.
In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
To me a stack of books is piled up on the floor.
Not ideal in a library!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_stack

In library science and architecture, a stack or bookstack (often
referred to as a library building's stacks) is a book storage area,
as opposed to a reading area. More specifically, this term refers to
a narrow-aisled, multilevel system of iron or steel shelving that
evolved in the nineteenth century to meet increasing demands for
storage space.[3] An "open-stack" library allows its patrons to
enter the stacks to browse for themselves; "closed stacks" means
library staff retrieve books for patrons on request.

I first came across that specialised use of stack in a university
library. There was an area open to users. A separate storage area not
open to users was described as "the stacks".

A sentence in that Wikiparticle caught my eye:

In 1857, multilevel stacks with grated iron floors were installed in
the British Library.

I assume "the grated iron floors" were not made from iron that had been
grated in the same way as "grated cheese".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2018-05-08 16:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by GordonD
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
...
To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.
In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
To me a stack of books is piled up on the floor.
Not ideal in a library!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_stack
In library science and architecture, a stack or bookstack (often
referred to as a library building's stacks) is a book storage area,
as opposed to a reading area. More specifically, this term refers to
a narrow-aisled, multilevel system of iron or steel shelving that
evolved in the nineteenth century to meet increasing demands for
storage space.[3] An "open-stack" library allows its patrons to
enter the stacks to browse for themselves; "closed stacks" means
library staff retrieve books for patrons on request.
I first came across that specialised use of stack in a university
library. There was an area open to users. A separate storage area not
open to users was described as "the stacks".
I had a similar experience, though I'm having the vague feeling that
some users could get permission to go into "the stacks".

The most fun, of course, are the mobile shelves.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In 1857, multilevel stacks with grated iron floors were installed in
the British Library.
I assume "the grated iron floors" were not made from iron that had been
grated in the same way as "grated cheese".
:-)
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2018-05-08 16:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Post by GordonD
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
To me, a shelf doesn't have tiers; the tiers are the shelves. So
I mentally changed "A three meter wide bookshelf with 6 tiers"
to "A three-meter-wide bookcase with six shelves." However, Google
knows of people who refer to the whole many-shelved furniture item
as a bookshelf.
In a library those can be "the stacks", but do people refer to
one "stack"?
To me a stack of books is piled up on the floor.
Not ideal in a library!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_stack
In library science and architecture, a stack or bookstack (often
referred to as a library building's stacks) is a book storage area,
as opposed to a reading area. More specifically, this term refers to
a narrow-aisled, multilevel system of iron or steel shelving that
evolved in the nineteenth century to meet increasing demands for
storage space.[3] An "open-stack" library allows its patrons to
enter the stacks to browse for themselves; "closed stacks" means
library staff retrieve books for patrons on request.
I first came across that specialised use of stack in a university
library. There was an area open to users. A separate storage area not
open to users was described as "the stacks".
I had a similar experience, though I'm having the vague feeling that
some users could get permission to go into "the stacks".
Cornell had an undergraduate library (the old and complex Uris Library),
which was completely open-stack, and a graduate library, Olin Library
(paid for by a defense contractor that built buildings in universities
all over the country), that was open stacks for graduate students and
faculty, closed stacks for undergraduates; but it wasn't too hard to get
a year-long stack pass with an application signed by a faculty member.

Since then they've built a vast underground facility whose status I do not
know. So has the University of Chicago, which has meant that nearly every-
thing from before the mid 20th century is now sequestered in closed stacks
and the very reason for a huge library -- the serendipitous opportunities
afforded by browsing -- is vitiated.
Post by Jerry Friedman
The most fun, of course, are the mobile shelves.
When the Crerar Library was moved from the Illinois Institute of Technology
campus to the University of Chicago campus, because it had been horribly
vandalized/looted since it had moved there, it got acres, or so it seemed,
of such "compact storage."

Chicago has two private research libraries, the Newberry, on the North Side,
whose remit was Humanities (among its celebrated collections are History of
the Book, Maps, and Library Science), and the Crerar, on the South Side,
whose remit was Sciences. It holds one of the few copies in private hands
(they printed enough to give one to each senator and representative, who
had no use for them, and maybe one for each state library) of the Reports
of the United States Exploring Expedition of 1841-42 -- which vastly
increased knowledge of the Pacific Ocean and the Northwest Coast of North
America, and whose collections formed the nucleus of the Smithsonian
Institution (founded in 1840) 's holdings. When I needed to consult the
Ethnology volumes, I found that the set was far from complete.

The Chicago Public Library was in on the deal and was to specialize in Arts.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
In 1857, multilevel stacks with grated iron floors were installed in
the British Library.
I assume "the grated iron floors" were not made from iron that had been
grated in the same way as "grated cheese".
:-)
Some parts of Uris had that sort of floor. So did the Brooklyn Bridge,
originally. They reduce weight without decreasing strength, but they're
pretty eerie.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-09 01:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Not ideal in a library!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_stack
In library science and architecture, a stack or bookstack (often
referred to as a library building's stacks) is a book storage area,
as opposed to a reading area. More specifically, this term refers to
a narrow-aisled, multilevel system of iron or steel shelving that
evolved in the nineteenth century to meet increasing demands for
storage space.[3] An "open-stack" library allows its patrons to
enter the stacks to browse for themselves; "closed stacks" means
library staff retrieve books for patrons on request.
I've never been in the stacks of a library, but this sounds similar to a
system we had in some of our laboratories. N large floor-to-ceiling
steel shelving units fitted into a space wide enough to hold (N+1) of
them, where N was somewhere between 5 and 10. All units were on rollers
than ran on tracks on the floor. (There might have also been tracks at
the ceiling end; I forget.) To get access to one unit, you slid the
others sideways until you had a gap big enough to walk into.

This worked only for infrequent access, because there was no way to get
access to more than one unit at any one time.

Googling for "mobile shelving" brings up relevant images.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2018-05-07 22:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Companies that sell shelves specify their width and depth, but no
length. That's what I thought, but I quickly confirmed it with one US
and one UK retailer.
--
- It's the title search for the Rachel property.
Guess who owns it?
- Tell me it's not that bastard Donald Trump.
-- Gilmore Girls, S02E08 (2001)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-07 23:41:27 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 7 May 2018 18:18:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Companies that sell shelves specify their width and depth, but no
length. That's what I thought, but I quickly confirmed it with one US
and one UK retailer.
If you asked for a 6" deep shelf, would you be surprised if they asked
you how long a shelf you wanted?

I doubt if the Vatican went to the U-Shelve-It! store for those
shelves. They were probably made by hand by an order of woodworking
monks.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Quinn C
2018-05-08 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 7 May 2018 18:18:50 -0400, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Companies that sell shelves specify their width and depth, but no
length. That's what I thought, but I quickly confirmed it with one US
and one UK retailer.
If you asked for a 6" deep shelf, would you be surprised if they asked
you how long a shelf you wanted?
No, if it was a single shelf not mounted yet, i.e. basically a board.
Yes, if it was a bookcase. Not sure if I was buying a pre-packaged set
of shelves and posts (my main set of bookcases is metal. Sturdy.)
Post by Tony Cooper
I doubt if the Vatican went to the U-Shelve-It! store for those
shelves. They were probably made by hand by an order of woodworking
monks.
That's very romantic, but I think they support local business as well.
--
The Internet? Is that thing still around? - Homer Simpson
Tony Cooper
2018-05-07 22:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vaticans walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives-artificial-intelligence/559205/
Of course. 53 linear miles of shelving is the total of the length of
all the shelves if laid end-to-end. The depth - how wide they are
from wall to front - is not a factor in the statement.

To incorporate both figures would provide the number of square meters
(or yards, or feet, or whatever) of shelving.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Horace LaBadie
2018-05-07 23:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vaticans walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archi
ves-artificial-intelligence/559205/
Of course. 53 linear miles of shelving is the total of the length of
all the shelves if laid end-to-end. The depth - how wide they are
from wall to front - is not a factor in the statement.
To incorporate both figures would provide the number of square meters
(or yards, or feet, or whatever) of shelving.
If all the girls attending the Yale prom were laid end to end, it
wouldn't surprise me, to paraphrase Dorothy Parker.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-08 03:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
While your three-metre-wide shelf is my three-metre-deep shelf.

(Not that I've ever met a shelf that deep.)
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Tony Cooper
2018-05-08 04:40:12 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 May 2018 13:27:16 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
While your three-metre-wide shelf is my three-metre-deep shelf.
(Not that I've ever met a shelf that deep.)
I can't fathom that line of reasoning. "Wide" is what we use to
describe the left-to-right dimension of something.

"Is the door wide enough to get the couch through it?"

"The shelf is wide enough to hold about 20 books"

"The football player looked wider than he was tall".

"He had a wide smile on his face at the mention of chocolate cake".

are all normal sentences to me, and have nothing to do with depth.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-08 11:16:11 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 May 2018 00:40:12 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 8 May 2018 13:27:16 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by John Varela
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
To me, the width of the shelf is the distance that it projects from
the wall, and distance along the wall is the shelf's length. So,
what you describe is not a three-meter-wide shelf, it is a
three-meter-long shelf.
While your three-metre-wide shelf is my three-metre-deep shelf.
(Not that I've ever met a shelf that deep.)
I can't fathom that line of reasoning. "Wide" is what we use to
describe the left-to-right dimension of something.
That is one use of "wide". If you remove a shelf from a bookcase (or
whatever you call it) it has length, width and thickness where the
length is greater than the width. That is regardless of your position
with respect to it.

When you put it back to be used as a shelf its length become width and
its width becomes depth.

But when you are dealing with the total storage capacity of many shelves
it is customary, I think, to refer to the combined "length" of the
shelves.
Post by Tony Cooper
"Is the door wide enough to get the couch through it?"
"The shelf is wide enough to hold about 20 books"
"The football player looked wider than he was tall".
"He had a wide smile on his face at the mention of chocolate cake".
are all normal sentences to me, and have nothing to do with depth.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Horace LaBadie
2018-05-07 23:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
Post by occam
"The grandeur is obvious. Located within the Vatican’s walls, next door
to the Apostolic Library and just north of the Sistine Chapel, the VSA
houses 53 linear miles of shelving dating back more than 12 centuries."
The second phrase "dating back more than 12 centuries" also puts a
perspective on current state secrecy laws. Normally classified
information in the UK has a shelf-life of 50 - 100 years, beyond which
documents are either declassified or destroyed. 12 centuries makes the
Vatican the most secretive state on the planet.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/vatican-secret-archives
-artificial-intelligence/559205/
Peter Moylan
2018-05-08 03:28:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
I've tried surfboard riding, but could never keep my balance. I don't
have board feet.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Horace LaBadie
2018-05-08 12:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
I've tried surfboard riding, but could never keep my balance. I don't
have board feet.
Broad feet, broad feet.
Peter Moylan
2018-05-08 12:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
I've tried surfboard riding, but could never keep my balance. I don't
have board feet.
Broad feet, broad feet.
Yes, I suppose broad feet would give a more secure grip on the surfboard.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Quinn C
2018-05-08 16:49:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
I've tried surfboard riding, but could never keep my balance. I don't
have board feet.
Broad feet, broad feet.
Yes, I suppose broad feet would give a more secure grip on the surfboard.
Any hobbit surfers around?
--
Perhaps it might be well, while the subject is under discussion,
to attempt the creation of an entirely new gender, for the purpose
of facilitating reference to the growing caste of manly women and
womanly men. -- Baltimore Sun (1910)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2018-05-08 16:17:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 May 2018 13:28:37 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Horace LaBadie
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
You would prefer board feet?
I've tried surfboard riding, but could never keep my balance. I don't
have board feet.
"board feet" sounds like a medical condition, perhaps an infection.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Mark Brader
2018-05-08 03:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
18, of course. At least, 6 x 3 is 18 where I live.
--
Mark Brader | "You know, you have a very transparent mind --
Toronto | which in no way implies clear thinking!"
***@vex.net | --Marshall Cahill (Bochco/Hargrove/Kibbee)
Tony Cooper
2018-05-08 04:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
18, of course. At least, 6 x 3 is 18 where I live.
I agree with your math (or maths, if you are that sort), but I don't
think of shelves as tiers. There are other oddities in the question.

That question - if I wrote it - would be "Does a three meter wide
bookcase with, say, 6 shelves counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?".

'Course I wouldn't use meters.

A further complication is that Mark has done his usual slicing and
dicing of a post and left out that the subject is the number of lineal
meters of shelving. A three meter wide bookcase takes up 3 meters of
linear floorspace regardless of the number of shelves.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Mark Brader
2018-05-08 06:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Mark Brader
Post by occam
How do you go about quantifying "53 linear miles of shelving"? A three
meter wide book-shelf with, say, 6 tiers counts as 30 linear meters or 3
meters?
18, of course. At least, 6 x 3 is 18 where I live.
I agree with your math (or maths, if you are that sort), but I don't
think of shelves as tiers. There are other oddities in the question.
I agree. At the time it seemed as if the best thing was to just answer
the intended question, but there's other stuff worth commenting on.
Post by Tony Cooper
A further complication is that Mark has done his usual slicing and
dicing of a post and left out that the subject is the number of lineal
meters of shelving.
Please reread the first requoted line.
--
Mark Brader "You can't [compare] computer memory and recall
Toronto with human memory and recall. It's comparing
***@vex.net apples and bicycles." -- Ed Knowles
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