Pronunciation of Aesop in "Aesop's Fables"

[Algeria Horan]

Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.

We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).

For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop

While this video pronounces Aesop as Ee-sop:

What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate pronunciation, nor
*why* they came to the specific pronunciation conclusion, which generally
is a sign of poor research.

Looking further, we find "Ee-sop" more often defined:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop

However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion", such
as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results appear to
be 2:1 in favor of Ay-sop over Ee-sop:
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/

I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common as
fingernails:
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop

What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).

[...]

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

How do you pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius?

-- Richard

[Algeria Horan]

Post by Richard Tobin
How do you pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius?

I'm confused by that choice because "Aeschylus" seems to have a *third*
pronunciation of the "AE"...

1. Aesop => Ay-sop (long a)
2. Aesop => Ee-sop (long e)
3. Aeschylus => 'es-kə-ləs (short e)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aeschylus

So, that makes *three* possible pronunciations:
1. Ay-sop
2. Ee-sop
3. Es-sop

I'm not sure adding "Aeschylus" to the mix helped. :(

Looking at "Aesculapius", we find the short e again:

Given they both use the short e, are you saying Aesop is pronounced:
Essop (as in Esso or Exxon)?

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Richard Tobin
How do you pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius?

I'm confused by that choice because "Aeschylus" seems to have a *third*
pronunciation of the "AE"...
1. Aesop => Ay-sop (long a)
2. Aesop => Ee-sop (long e)
3. Aeschylus => 'es-kə-ləs (short e)
http://youtu.be/l-4e-IKwKEM
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aeschylus
1. Ay-sop
2. Ee-sop
3. Es-sop
I'm not sure adding "Aeschylus" to the mix helped. :(
http://youtu.be/Jx5PCRprcBk
Essop (as in Esso or Exxon)?

I pronounce them all with "Ee-".

-- Richard

[grabber]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate pronunciation, nor
*why* they came to the specific pronunciation conclusion, which generally
is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop
However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion", such
as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results appear to
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/
I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common as
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception, or is another principle at work here? Greek vs Latin
perhaps?

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception, or is another principle at work here?

I think yes, on both counts, but there's a lot of confusion because
the ligature has gone missing: many words with regular <ae> remain in
AmE and are usually pronounced /eI/ -- for example, <alumnae>
/@'lVmneI/ -- so it's natural for people to misapply that
pronunciation to other circumstances. If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

-GAWollman

[Algeria Horan]

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.

However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

[CDB]

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be writing <esop>
instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked. I
only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as
you noted.

I think Richard probably says "Eeschylus" and "Eesculaypius"

But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that*
(esso-style) pronunciation in the search?

It isn't. You have misinterpreted what he was trying to say.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as
you noted.

I think Richard probably says "Eeschylus" and "Eesculaypius"

Yes.

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that*
(esso-style) pronunciation in the search?

It isn't. You have misinterpreted what he was trying to say.

True, but I wasn't implying that he *should* say "ee". He asked:

What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to
properly pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion
group to ponder.

and pronouncing it the same way he pronounces Aeschylus and Aesculapius
is such a rationale, even if it results in "essop".

-- Richard

[Algeria Horan]

Post by Richard Tobin
pronouncing it the same way he pronounces Aeschylus and Aesculapius
is such a rationale, even if it results in "essop"

Thanks for the clarification.
It seems all 3 pronunciations are tenable.
Sigh.

ee
ay
es

[CDB]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced
"essop", as you noted.

I think Richard probably says "Eeschylus" and "Eesculaypius"

Yes.

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that*
(esso-style) pronunciation in the search?

It isn't. You have misinterpreted what he was trying to say.

What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to
properly pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion
group to ponder.
and pronouncing it the same way he pronounces Aeschylus and
Aesculapius is such a rationale, even if it results in "essop".

Can't deny the reasoning. But there are many Americans besides the OP
who say "Esschylus", and none (to my knowledge) who say "Essop", so
following it might get him* some funny looks.

*(I see he has recently been outed as "Henry".)

[Algeria Horan]

Post by CDB
*(I see he has recently been outed as "Henry".)

There are two perfectly legitimate use models for Usenet, where I use, by
design, a *different* model than you apparently use, where both models have
their merits and demerits, but neither are trolling.

I call your use model the "coffee shop" use model, whereas mine I call the
"FAQ" use model.

Mine is simple. I ask a question and I manage the thread. Everything that
is needed to know is *in* the question, and in the management of the
thread. As such, I post 99% to my own threads, and only about 1% to other
people's threads.

You probably use the more common "coffee shop" model, where you post 99% to
other people's threads, and only 1% to your own threads. In your use model,
"who" you are is more important than *what* you ask, whereas in my use
model, *what* I ask is the only thing that is important - not who I am.

Since I'm a privacy freak, *all* my headers are arbitrarily changed, not to
foil you, but to foil batch aggregators. I make no bones as to who I am but
it doesn't matter who I am. I could hide my thoughts and grammar and
punctuation; but that's not my goal.

Many times idiots assume privacy nyms are the sign of a troll; but that's
like calling an old lady a bank robber simply because she is wearing a
floppy hat when she goes inside the bank, or calling a gun owner a criminal
simply because he owns a gun.

I never troll (why would I?) and my only goals are:
a. Privacy (so I change *all* the headers frequently but never within a
thread)
b. Getting the answers (which is why I use the "FAQ model").

Your goal, presumably, is comraderie, which is why I term your presumed use
model the "coffee shop" model. You probably post to lots of threads, and
for that purpose, continuity in nyms is important to you.

For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

Hope this helps you better understand a privacy question-oriented use model
other than the one you apparently employ.

[Algeria Horan]

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.

CORRECTION:

For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 7 Oct 2016 19:14:01 -0500, Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

That correction does not suit me. A "suite" is a set of rooms or
furniture or a musical composition.

If the suit fits, wear it.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

I don't think anyone tried to correct you, but if you're going to be
picky, check the difference in meaning between "suit" and "suite"
(usually pronounced "soot" {'loot' vowel} and "sweet").

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 08:31:51 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

I don't think anyone tried to correct you, but if you're going to be
picky, check the difference in meaning between "suit" and "suite"
(usually pronounced "soot" {'loot' vowel} and "sweet").

I brought that up earlier.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 9 Oct 2016 08:31:51 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

I don't think anyone tried to correct you, but if you're going to be
picky, check the difference in meaning between "suit" and "suite"
(usually pronounced "soot" {'loot' vowel} and "sweet").

I brought that up earlier.

It's the time lag.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

actually, correct grammar would have you write '... I never look at to whom I'm responding.'

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by j***@gmail.com

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I only look at
*what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add to the
conversation).

I apologize for the incorrect grammar.
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that would
suite me just fine as I never look at _whom_ I'm responding to; I only look
at what they say (and particularly the value they add to the conversation).

actually, correct grammar would have you write '... I never look at to
whom I'm responding.'

Nonsense. No one speaks like that naturally, and only extreme pedants
write like that. In any case, an extreme pedant would write "I never
look at the name of the person to whom I'm responding."

On the other hand, correct spelling would have "suit".

[CDB]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by CDB
*(I see he has recently been outed as "Henry".)

There are two perfectly legitimate use models for Usenet, where I
use, by design, a *different* model than you apparently use, where
both models have their merits and demerits, but neither are
trolling.
I call your use model the "coffee shop" use model, whereas mine I
call the "FAQ" use model.
Mine is simple. I ask a question and I manage the thread. Everything
that is needed to know is *in* the question, and in the management
of the thread. As such, I post 99% to my own threads, and only about
1% to other people's threads.
You probably use the more common "coffee shop" model, where you post
99% to other people's threads, and only 1% to your own threads. In
your use model, "who" you are is more important than *what* you ask,
whereas in my use model, *what* I ask is the only thing that is
important - not who I am.
Since I'm a privacy freak, *all* my headers are arbitrarily changed,
not to foil you, but to foil batch aggregators. I make no bones as
to who I am but it doesn't matter who I am. I could hide my thoughts
and grammar and punctuation; but that's not my goal.
Many times idiots assume privacy nyms are the sign of a troll; but
that's like calling an old lady a bank robber simply because she is
wearing a floppy hat when she goes inside the bank, or calling a gun
owner a criminal simply because he owns a gun.
I never troll (why would I?) and my only goals are: a. Privacy (so I
change *all* the headers frequently but never within a thread) b.
Getting the answers (which is why I use the "FAQ model").
Your goal, presumably, is comraderie, which is why I term your
presumed use model the "coffee shop" model. You probably post to
lots of threads, and for that purpose, continuity in nyms is
important to you.

You are oversimplifying. There is some pure social interaction, for
good or ill, but a lot of it is the exchange of interesting and amusing
information, the playing of sometimes-elaborate word games, and the
struggle for boasting rights.

Post by Algeria Horan
For me, if there were no headers other than the subject header, that
would suite me just fine as I never look at who I'm responding to; I
only look at *what* they say (and particularly the *value* they add
to the conversation).
Hope this helps you better understand a privacy question-oriented
use model other than the one you apparently employ.

What it doesn't explain is why we kaffeeklatschers should interrupt our
conversations to deal with a passing dataminer.

[Algeria Horan]

Post by CDB
You are oversimplifying. There is some pure social interaction, for
good or ill, but a lot of it is the exchange of interesting and amusing
information, the playing of sometimes-elaborate word games, and the
struggle for boasting rights.

While there is tremendous value to all in asking/answer a specific valid
and new question, I agree with you that the "coffee shop" model is common,
and that this model contains a (sometimes banal) 'exchange of interesting
and amusing information, some of which requires some foreknowledge of the
poster in order to fully appreciate.

For example, if you knew I were Aspergers in one thread and if I made a
less-than-social comment out of exasperation in another thread, you could
easily put those two details together.

I do not try to hide from social engineering skills; what I hide from are
simply mass header aggregation. So, if you look at my headers over the past
20 years on a.u.e (and a.e.u), my goal is that you can't aggregate them
accurately.

That's my only goal in changing the headers. If I wanted to fool you, I'd
change vernacular and punctuation and details inside the thread, none of
which I bother to do.

I'm here to get answers to specific questions.
Usenet has no value to me for anything else.

Post by CDB
What it doesn't explain is why we kaffeeklatschers should interrupt our
conversations to deal with a passing dataminer.

You bring up a good point in that I am a "data miner", and your intimation
is that this is entirely negative.

However, if my questions merit discussion, then everyone learns from the
results.

In general, since I have been here for decades, my questions aren't the
same old same old.

For example, you'd think that a tenable argument for the specific
pronunciation of the proper noun Aesop in Aesop's Fables would have been
discussed, but, from both my knowledge of A.U.E and from a search, it has
not been discussed prior.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/alt.usage.english

Are Aesop's fables allegories?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/aesop$27s$20fables|sort:relevance/alt.usage.english/z89WweY87pc/oicI9Kh1kz8J

Aesop in Japan -- "sour grapes"
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/Aesop$20in$20Japan$20--$20%22sour$20grapes%22|sort:relevance/alt.usage.english/NXE-fbDvZas/UPXbIoUhuBkJ

Of course, diacriticals have been discussed, so, the discussion is
scattered about:
Diacriticals
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.usage.english/aesop|sort:relevance/alt.usage.english/RENkSF3X1_k/RlPhd9yYtl4J

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Algeria Horan
For example, if you knew I were Aspergers in one thread and if I made a
less-than-social comment out of exasperation in another thread, you could
easily put those two details together.

HotSalt "is" also Aspergers (it's not actually an adjective), he says, and
isn't the slightest bit obnoxious like you.

[CDB]

[the uses of AUE]

I'm here to get answers to specific questions. Usenet has no value
to me for anything else.

Post by CDB
What it doesn't explain is why we kaffeeklatschers should
interrupt our conversations to deal with a passing dataminer.

You bring up a good point in that I am a "data miner", and your
intimation is that this is entirely negative.

My characterisation of your purpose was a little disparaging, to match
my self-mocking summary of your description of us as discussers of
triviality. It was a joke of the kind sometimes made here.

It was not my intention to suggest that your search for precision is
entirely negative. I was simply expressing the contrary point of view
to yours: as Usenet is only useful to you for your purposes, so
presumably it is only useful to others for their own purposes. Why
should people here interrupt their pastimes to serve your interests?

My answer to that would be, as above, that your description of this
group's purpose and activities is incomplete: there is a custom here,
still sometimes observed, of open-mindedness and helpfulness to
visitors. One way in which you would have to conform, to achieve a long
and welcome stay, is to "change your vernacular" (sorry, snipped that)
and maybe shmooze a little.

[Aesop]

[Dingbat]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone would.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπος in modern Greek,
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling was
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (eye-sop, with
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

[Adam Funk]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπος in modern Greek,
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling was
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (eye-sop, with
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

You have never experienced Aesop until you have read him in the
original Klingon.

[Dingbat]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone would.

If the 1st syllable were stressed and the 2nd reduced, that would tend to
make the vowel in the 1st syllable longer, making it sound like

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπος in modern Greek,
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling was
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (eye-sop, with
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

<ae> looks like a Latinized spelling.
Going the other way, Latin <ae> becomes <ai> in Greek, eg. Caesar->Kaiser.
As for pronunciation, Latin <ae> seems to have been pronounced as <eye>.
http://www.wheelockslatin.com/chapters/introduction/introduction_diphthongs.html

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:51:43 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrot

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 4:46:31 AM UTC+5:30, Algeria Horan wrot

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculap

ius

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone would.

If the 1st syllable were stressed and the 2nd reduced, that would tend to
make the vowel in the 1st syllable longer, making it sound like

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπ

ος in modern Greek,

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling

was

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (

eye-sop, with

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

<ae> looks like a Latinized spelling.

Well of course. Has anyone suggested otherwise?

Going the other way, Latin <ae> becomes <ai> in Greek, eg. Caesar->Kaiser.

Kaiser is German. I don't know how they wrote Caesar in ancient Greek,
but I'd be very surprised if they wrote Kaiser.

As for pronunciation, Latin <ae> seems to have been pronounced as <eye>.
http://www.wheelockslatin.com/chapters/introduction/introduction_diphthongs
.html

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:51:43 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrot

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 4:46:31 AM UTC+5:30, Algeria Horan wrot

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculap

ius

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone would.

If the 1st syllable were stressed and the 2nd reduced, that would tend to
make the vowel in the 1st syllable longer, making it sound like

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπ

ος in modern Greek,

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling

was

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (

eye-sop, with

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

<ae> looks like a Latinized spelling.

Well of course. Has anyone suggested otherwise?

Going the other way, Latin <ae> becomes <ai> in Greek, eg. Caesar->Kaiser.

Kaiser is German. I don't know how they wrote Caesar in ancient Greek,
but I'd be very surprised if they wrote Kaiser.

καισαρ (kaisar)

Be somewhat surprised!

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2018-03-26 12:34:47 +0200, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 1:51:43 PM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden

wrot

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 4:46:31 AM UTC+5:30, Algeria Horan wr

ot

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than t

he

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aescul

ap

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

ius

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone woul

d.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

If the 1st syllable were stressed and the 2nd reduced, that would tend

to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

make the vowel in the 1st syllable longer, making it sound like

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style

)

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Algeria Horan
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be ΑίσωÏ

€

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

ος in modern Greek,

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelli

ng

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

was

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still

a

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p

] (

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

eye-sop, with

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don'

t

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

<ae> looks like a Latinized spelling.

Well of course. Has anyone suggested otherwise?

Going the other way, Latin <ae> becomes <ai> in Greek, eg. Caesar->Kais

er.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Kaiser is German. I don't know how they wrote Caesar in ancient Greek,
but I'd be very surprised if they wrote Kaiser.

καισαρ (kaisar)
Be somewhat surprised!

OK, but it wasn't the Kai- that I didn't believe, but the -er.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ ... ]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
καισαρ (kaisar)
Be somewhat surprised!

OK, but it wasn't the Kai- that I didn't believe, but the -er.

One other thing: what is your authority for the spelling you give? When
I was learning Greek (a long time ago) Greek words ended in a vowel, ν,
or ς, never ρ. However, I suppose exceptions might be made for foreign
words.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

[ ... ]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
καισαρ (kaisar)
Be somewhat surprised!

OK, but it wasn't the Kai- that I didn't believe, but the -er.

One other thing: what is your authority for the spelling you give? When
I was learning Greek (a long time ago) Greek words ended in a vowel, ν,
or ς, never καισαρ. However, I suppose exceptions might be made for foreign
words.

Two Classical Greek dictionaries but you're wrong about there being
no words ending in ρ. κλητήρ, ῥήτωρ, and the very well known πατήρ
are exemplars given in Wiki's article on noun declensions and then, of
course, there's farmer's friend Demeter.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

[ ... ]
Two Classical Greek dictionaries but you're wrong about there being
no words ending in ρ. κλητήρ, ῥήτωρ, and the very well known πατήρ
are exemplars given in Wiki's article on noun declensions and then, of
course, there's farmer's friend Demeter.

Yes, you're right about these examples. Put it down to forgetting after
60+ years.

[CDB]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be writing
<esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first
looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former
more common than the latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus
and Aesculap

ius

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as
you noted.

I say "Eeskilus" ['***@s] and "Eeskyulaypius" [,iskj@'***@s]; I
believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat
How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why
anyone would.

If the 1st syllable were stressed and the 2nd reduced, that
would tend to make the vowel in the 1st syllable longer, making

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that*
(esso-style) pronunciation in the search?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπ

ος in modern Greek,

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the
spelling

was

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (

eye-sop, with

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop, and say "Les fables de La
Fontaine".

<ae> looks like a Latinized spelling.

Well of course. Has anyone suggested otherwise?

Post by Dingbat
Going the other way, Latin <ae> becomes <ai> in Greek, eg.
Caesar->Kaiser.

Kaiser is German. I don't know how they wrote Caesar in ancient
Greek, but I'd be very surprised if they wrote Kaiser.

καισαρ (kaisar)
Be somewhat surprised!

The "Ae" in "Aesopus" and the "Ai" in "Aiso:pos" were pronounced [ai] in
Latin and in Greek. Sound-changes in Latin had made that diphthong into
the long vowel [e] by the time the name was borrowed into English, and
later changes in English made it [i].

The English pronunciation is "Eesop" ['***@p].

I am somewhat surprised that the Great English Vowel Shift is news
to someone from SL.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be writing
<esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first
looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former
more common than the latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculap

ius

Post by Algeria Horan
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

?? "Eskilus" (cf. Cole Porter), "@sklaypius" (not that we have much occasion
to talk about him).

<...>

Post by CDB
The "Ae" in "Aesopus" and the "Ai" in "Aiso:pos" were pronounced [ai] in
Latin and in Greek. Sound-changes in Latin had made that diphthong into
the long vowel [e] by the time the name was borrowed into English, and
later changes in English made it [i].

This one's right.

Post by CDB
I am somewhat surprised that the Great English Vowel Shift is news
to someone from SL.

Slough?

[CDB]

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be
writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I
first looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with
the former more common than the latter. However,
Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek and
"Daedalos" in Latin (and I say ['***@l@s] if I mean the father of
Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius
is a little different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but
the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were
in Latin and English, so it is those forms that are relevant.

Excuse me, Cole Porter? Love his music, though. I have a craving to
see (the movie version of) _Kiss me, Kate_ again soon.

<...>

Post by CDB
The "Ae" in "Aesopus" and the "Ai" in "Aiso:pos" were pronounced
[ai] in Latin and in Greek. Sound-changes in Latin had made that
diphthong into the long vowel [e] by the time the name was borrowed
into English, and later changes in English made it [i].

This one's right.

Post by CDB
I am somewhat surprised that the Great English Vowel Shift is news
to someone from SL.

Slough?

In a sense.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by CDB

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be
writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I
first looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with
the former more common than the latter. However,
Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek and
Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius
is a little different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but
the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were
in Latin and English, so it is those forms that are relevant.
Excuse me, Cole Porter? Love his music, though. I have a craving to
see (the movie version of) _Kiss me, Kate_ again soon.

<...>

Post by CDB
The "Ae" in "Aesopus" and the "Ai" in "Aiso:pos" were pronounced
[ai] in Latin and in Greek. Sound-changes in Latin had made that
diphthong into the long vowel [e] by the time the name was borrowed
into English, and later changes in English made it [i].

This one's right.

Post by CDB
I am somewhat surprised that the Great English Vowel Shift is news to
someone from SL.

Slough?

In a sense.

What _did_ you mean? I thought of Slough, but it seemed only marginally
possible. Maybe South London?

[musika]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What _did_ you mean? I thought of Slough, but it seemed only marginally
possible. Maybe South London?

I assumed he meant sci.lang

[David Kleinecke]

Post by musika

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
What _did_ you mean? I thought of Slough, but it seemed only marginally
possible. Maybe South London?

I assumed he meant sci.lang

Which is, of course, S.L

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by CDB

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be
writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I
first looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with
the former more common than the latter. However,
Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek and
Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius
is a little different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but
the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were
in Latin and English, so it is those forms that are relevant.
Excuse me, Cole Porter? Love his music, though. I have a craving to
see (the movie version of) _Kiss me, Kate_ again soon.

<...>

Post by CDB
The "Ae" in "Aesopus" and the "Ai" in "Aiso:pos" were pronounced
[ai] in Latin and in Greek. Sound-changes in Latin had made that
diphthong into the long vowel [e] by the time the name was borrowed
into English, and later changes in English made it [i].

This one's right.

Post by CDB
I am somewhat surprised that the Great English Vowel Shift is news
to someone from SL.

Slough?

In a sense.

What _did_ you mean? I thought of Slough, but it seemed only marginally
possible. Maybe South London?

Though in the British postcode system, SL represents Slough. I don't get
"in a sense" unless it's a disguised allusion to muddy ground, and even
then I'm stuck.

Sci and Lang stand out, as Ray has suggested (I peeped forward).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by CDB

Post by CDB

Post by Algeria Horan

If it were not a proper name, we would indeed be
writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I
first looked. I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with
the former more common than the latter. However,
Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and
Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

believe those to be the correct English pronunciations.

occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek and
Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius
is a little different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but
the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were
in Latin and English, so it is those forms that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

Post by CDB
Excuse me, Cole Porter? Love his music, though. I have a craving to
see (the movie version of) _Kiss me, Kate_ again soon.

And when you do, you'll hear "Brush Up Your Shakespeare," which includes

"The girls today in society go for classical poetry
So to win their hearts one must quote with ease
Aeschylus and Euripides
One must know Homer, and believe me, eau
Sophocles, also Sappho-ho
Unless you know Shelley and Keats and Pope
Dainty Debbies will call you a dope"

Even though this is the first stanza, I must say I've never heard the last
four lines of it. He provided quite a few stanzas for encores of the funny
business, and they don't even do them when they're getting to the last few
laughs.

[CDB]

["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek
of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of
Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek for his name was
"Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong
into a long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek
of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of
Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek for his name was
"Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong
into a long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

I have a severe suspicion that you're making this bollocks up as
you go along, not least because all the major works on mythology
use the Greek version of the name either as Asclepius or Asclepios.
Why the Latin version should be taken as the model for the
pronunciation of a Greek name which preceded Latin by many
centuries is beyond my ken.

[CDB]

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in
the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The
case of Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek for
his name was "Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made the
Latin diphthong into a long vowel were in Latin and English, so
it is those forms that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

I hadn't noticed this spelling before. It's "Aesculapius", because the
Romans wrote it that way, and Greek was unfamiliar to Western Europeans
at the time those words were acquired. We have "bacterium" instead of
"bakterion" for the same reason.

Post by CDB
From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

I have a severe suspicion that you're making this bollocks up as you
go along, not least because all the major works on mythology use the
Greek version of the name either as Asclepius or Asclepios. Why the
Latin version should be taken as the model for the pronunciation of
a Greek name which preceded Latin by many centuries is beyond my
ken.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in
the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The
case of Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek for
his name was "Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made the
Latin diphthong into a long vowel were in Latin and English, so
it is those forms that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

I hadn't noticed this spelling before. It's "Aesculapius", because the
Romans wrote it that way, and Greek was unfamiliar to Western Europeans
at the time those words were acquired. We have "bacterium" instead of
"bakterion" for the same reason.

No we have 'bacterium' because it was invented in the mid 19th
Century when Western Europe was fully conversant with Greek but
preferred to Latinise biological terms. So not the same reason or
even the same process!

[CDB]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

we have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little different,
since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but the
sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long
vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms that
are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

I hadn't noticed this spelling before. It's "Aesculapius", because
the Romans wrote it that way, and Greek was unfamiliar to Western
Europeans at the time those words were acquired. We have
"bacterium" instead of "bakterion" for the same reason.

No we have 'bacterium' because it was invented in the mid 19th
Century when Western Europe was fully conversant with Greek but
preferred to Latinise biological terms. So not the same reason or
even the same process!

The preference arose because Greek was rarely spoken when Classical
words began being borrowed into modern Western languages.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by CDB

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

we have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little different,
since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios", but the
sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a long
vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms that
are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

I hadn't noticed this spelling before. It's "Aesculapius", because
the Romans wrote it that way, and Greek was unfamiliar to Western
Europeans at the time those words were acquired. We have
"bacterium" instead of "bakterion" for the same reason.

No we have 'bacterium' because it was invented in the mid 19th
Century when Western Europe was fully conversant with Greek but
preferred to Latinise biological terms. So not the same reason or
even the same process!

The preference arose because Greek was rarely spoken when Classical
words began being borrowed into modern Western languages.

Which was when, exactly? From the time of the Reformation onward
Greek was an essential part of a classical education.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in Greek
of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos". The case of
Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek for his name was
"Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong
into a long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear in any form in
the "Biographical Names" list at the back of MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got an unstoppable
video ad for who-knows-what.

At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be referring to the fact
that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote as Porter.

[CDB]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in
the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos".
The case of Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek
for his name was "Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made
the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were in Latin and
English, so it is those forms that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear in any
form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got an
unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be referring to
the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos" in
the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek "Aischulos".
The case of Aesculapius is a little different, since the Greek
for his name was "Asklepios", but the sound-changes that made
the Latin diphthong into a long vowel were in Latin and
English, so it is those forms that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear in any
form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got an
unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be referring to
the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

But I won't go back to that page to see what you might mean.

[CDB]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.

Wherefrom?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
But I won't go back to that page to see what you might mean.

Dowson took the titles of two of his poems from lines in Horace: this
one was "Non sum qualis eram bonae sub regno Cynarae", "I am not the man
I was in the reign of Good Queen Cynara".

The other one spawned a song lyric too (qv).

https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/vitae-summa-brevis-spem-nos-vetat-incohare-longam

I would translate it a little more literally than they did; "... forbids
us to venture long hopes". ("Incohare" is essentially "to begin").

[Peter Young]

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.
Wherefrom?

From Kiss me Kate, a musical based on a troupe of travelling players
putting on The Taming of the Screw. A great musical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Me,_Kate

I thought any fule know that.

Peter.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Peter Young

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.
Wherefrom?

From Kiss me Kate, a musical based on a troupe of travelling players
putting on The Taming of the Screw. A great musical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Me,_Kate
I thought any fule know that.

Sadly one can no longer rely on the average person to have a basic
knowledge of the classics. When the new One Day At A Time started
I was telling everybody how amazing it was that they'd got Rita
Moreno on board. I might as well have been talking to a wall!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Peter Young

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.
Wherefrom?

From Kiss me Kate, a musical based on a troupe of travelling players
putting on The Taming of the Screw. A great musical.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Me,_Kate
I thought any fule know that.

Sadly one can no longer rely on the average person to have a basic
knowledge of the classics. When the new One Day At A Time started
I was telling everybody how amazing it was that they'd got Rita
Moreno on board. I might as well have been talking to a wall!

I last saw her in *Jane the Virgin*, last season. But she wasn't in *Kiss
Me, Kate*.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.
Wherefrom?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
But I won't go back to that page to see what you might mean.

Dowson took the titles of two of his poems from lines in Horace: this
one was "Non sum qualis eram bonae sub regno Cynarae", "I am not the man
I was in the reign of Good Queen Cynara".
The other one spawned a song lyric too (qv).
https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/vitae-summa-brevis-spem-nos-vetat-incohare-longam
I would translate it a little more literally than they did; "... forbids
us to venture long hopes". ("Incohare" is essentially "to begin").

I'd never seen that spelling and only knew the word as "inchoare".

[Ken Blake]

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB
["Essop" is not SOP]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by CDB

Post by CDB
English pronunciations.

have much occasion to talk about him).

Yes, and there's Stephen Dedalus. But that was "Daidalos"
I mean the father of Icarus), and Aeschylus was Greek
"Aischulos". The case of Aesculapius is a little
different, since the Greek for his name was "Asklepios",
but the sound-changes that made the Latin diphthong into a
long vowel were in Latin and English, so it is those forms
that are relevant.

So where did your u in "Aeskulapius" come from?

From the Latin version. That's the relevant form for English
pronunciations.

Nope, never encountered it. Aesclepius. Alas he doesn't appear
in any form in the "Biographical Names" list at the back of
MW11C.

Post by CDB
[Porter brushed up his Dowson, a bit]
https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/cynara/

I went there to find out what you were talking about, and I got
an unstoppable video ad for who-knows-what.
At the bottom of the page I discovered that you must be
referring to the fact that Dowson used the same Shakespeare quote
as Porter.

Don't see that. Horace, yes.

"always true to you in my fashion"

I don't recall seeing that in Shakespeare. I have tried a concordance
without success.

Brush up your Shakespeare!

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Garrett Wollman
If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

I didn't find "essop" in the pronunciation when I first looked.
I only found "eesop" and "aysop", with the former more common than the
latter.
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

How about "air-sop"?

No one pronounces it like that, and there is no reason why anyone would.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Algeria Horan
But, if it's pronounced essop, why didn't we find *that* (esso-style)
pronunciation in the search?

What is the pronunciation in modern Greek? How about ancient Greek?

Google Translate says that Aesop would be Αίσωπος in modern Greek,
which would be close to ['esɔp] (essop) in English. If the spelling was
the same in ancient Greek (I don't know), when αί was still a
diphthong, then it was probably close to ['ɑɪ̯sɔ:p] (eye-sop, with
lengthened o). The problem wouldn't arise in French, because they don't
seem to have heard of Aesop,

They do know of "Ésope" [ezɔp].

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
and say "Les fables de La Fontaine".

Not only - see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_d%27%C3%89sope

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
--
athel

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus and Aesculapius
in such a way as to make Aesop be pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

I don't remember who [s]he was: an earlier incarnation of Mr Sword, perhaps?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

In article

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus
and Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

I don't remember who [s]he was: an earlier incarnation of Mr Sword, perhaps?

Algeria Horan is Henning Schröder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus
and Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

I don't remember who [s]he was: an earlier incarnation of Mr Sword, perhaps?

Algeria Horan is Henning Schröder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus
and Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

I don't remember who [s]he was: an earlier incarnation of Mr Sword, perhaps?

Algeria Horan is Henning Schröder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

One more damn idiom - "real name" means the "official"
name of a real person.

Extra points to anyone who can figure out what "official"
means.

[Lewis]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Algeria Horan
However, Richard Tobin showed that we pronounce Aeschylus
and Aesculapius in such a way as to make Aesop be
pronounced "essop", as you noted.

Of course I did nothing of the sort.

I did wonder about that, but Ranjit would never invent such a thing.

Right, it was "Algeria Horan".

I don't remember who [s]he was: an earlier incarnation of Mr Sword, perhaps?

Algeria Horan is Henning Schröder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

One more damn idiom - "real name" means the "official"
name of a real person.

Oh, I had this argument about 25 or 30 years ago. I never got a
reasonable definition from anyone as to what "real name" was supposed to
mean.

Post by David Kleinecke
Extra points to anyone who can figure out what "official"
means.

For me it is, unfortunately, the name on my passport which, due to the
incompetence of the Colorado DMV and my need to get an emergency
passport, is not the name I have on my social security card or bank
accounts or marriage certificate.

The upshot is that legally I have a name and an AKA and which is which
depends on where the information comes from.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Paul Wolff

Algeria Horan is Henning Schroder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

In this case, the likelihood that the person in question wants to
conceal their identity because they're a troll.

You don't need a precise, general definition of real name to
conclude that some names are not.

-- Richard

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Paul Wolff

Algeria Horan is Henning Schroder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

In this case, the likelihood that the person in question wants to
conceal their identity because they're a troll.
You don't need a precise, general definition of real name to
conclude that some names are not.

As Potter Stewart didn't say, "I can't define a fake name, but I know
one when I see it."

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Paul Wolff

Algeria Horan is Henning Schroder, Of course I'm not suggesting that
either of those is a real name.

Just the sort of statement that raises my eyebrows, if not my hackles.
What establishes a name as not "real"? Jehovah? Henricus Rex? Mary
Poppins? John Wayne? Sweety-pie? Caligula?

In this case, the likelihood that the person in question wants to
conceal their identity because they're a troll.
You don't need a precise, general definition of real name to
conclude that some names are not.

<http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/t__s__eliot/poems/15121>
and that's my last word on the matter.

[grabber]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception, or is another principle at work here?

I think yes, on both counts, but there's a lot of confusion because
the ligature has gone missing: many words with regular <ae> remain in
AmE and are usually pronounced /eI/ -- for example, <alumnae>
pronunciation to other circumstances. If it were not a proper name,
we would indeed be writing <esop> instead.

Thanks, Garrett (and Jerry, below).

[Algeria Horan]

Post by grabber
I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception, or is another principle at work here? Greek vs Latin
perhaps?

From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

So that means there are 3 different pronunciations for the name "Aesop",
only the first two of which appear to be common, and the first of which
appears to be the most common.

eesop
aysop
essop

The question is how to defend which of these as "most correct"?

[grabber]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by grabber
I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception, or is another principle at work here? Greek vs Latin
perhaps?

From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

I'd pronounce both of those (and Aesop) with an "ee" sound. I think "ee"
for the sound of ae is pretty much universal in BrE.

Post by Algeria Horan
So that means there are 3 different pronunciations for the name "Aesop",
only the first two of which appear to be common, and the first of which
appears to be the most common.
eesop
aysop
essop
The question is how to defend which of these as "most correct"?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

I'd pronounce both of those (and Aesop) with an "ee" sound. I think "ee"
for the sound of ae is pretty much universal in BrE.

It's clearer in BrE because BrE has preserved the spelling of words
where "ae" and "oe" are pronounced as "ee".

It's less clear in AmE, where spelling reformers deleted the letter that
indicates the pronunciation in words like archaeology.

(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

I'd pronounce both of those (and Aesop) with an "ee" sound. I think "ee"
for the sound of ae is pretty much universal in BrE.

It's clearer in BrE because BrE has preserved the spelling of words
where "ae" and "oe" are pronounced as "ee".
It's less clear in AmE, where spelling reformers deleted the letter that
indicates the pronunciation in words like archaeology.
(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

Really? How do you pronounce "economy"?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

I'd pronounce both of those (and Aesop) with an "ee" sound. I think "ee"
for the sound of ae is pretty much universal in BrE.

It's clearer in BrE because BrE has preserved the spelling of words
where "ae" and "oe" are pronounced as "ee".
It's less clear in AmE, where spelling reformers deleted the letter that
indicates the pronunciation in words like archaeology.
(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

Really? How do you pronounce "economy"?

I pronounce it with an initial schwa, but an earlier generation didn't.
It's an interesting example of a spelling change that created a
pronunciation change.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan
(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

Really? How do you pronounce "economy"?

I pronounce it with an initial schwa, but an earlier generation didn't.
It's an interesting example of a spelling change that created a
pronunciation change.

"Economical" shows the difference more clearly, since in "economy"
the first syllable is unstressed.

I note that the OED's first reference (c1487) spells it "iconomycall".
The first spelling for "economy" (?1440) is "yconomye".

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan
(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

Really? How do you pronounce "economy"?

I pronounce it with an initial schwa, but an earlier generation didn't.
It's an interesting example of a spelling change that created a
pronunciation change.

"Economical" shows the difference more clearly, since in "economy"
the first syllable is unstressed.
I note that the OED's first reference (c1487) spells it "iconomycall".
The first spelling for "economy" (?1440) is "yconomye".

Its derivatives are the standard example of "free variation"
-- eekonomic(-) or eckonomic(-). I'm not aware of any conditioning
for when I say one and when the other.

"Economy" always starts with [i] not [@].

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
From the prior post of Richard Tobin, the AE is pronounced "es" as in
"Esso" and "Exxon", at least when we look at the proper pronunciation of
both his examples of Aeschylus and Aesculapius.

I'd pronounce both of those (and Aesop) with an "ee" sound. I think "ee"
for the sound of ae is pretty much universal in BrE.

It's clearer in BrE because BrE has preserved the spelling of words
where "ae" and "oe" are pronounced as "ee".
It's less clear in AmE, where spelling reformers deleted the letter that
indicates the pronunciation in words like archaeology.
(Although I think the British are to blame for dropping the first letter
of "oeconomy", leading ultimately to a pronunciation where the first
syllable was no longer pronounced "ee".)

Really? How do you pronounce "economy"?

I hear and say it fairly randomly with both [E] ([ɛ]) or [i:] or
sometimes with a vowel that's halfway in between. Then again, there are
people who pronounce it with a schwa.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by grabber

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate pronunciation, nor
*why* they came to the specific pronunciation conclusion, which generally
is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop
However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion", such
as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results appear to
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/
I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common as
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

I thought American spellings tended to render the "ae" ligature as "e",
in e.g. eon, medieval where BrE would tend to have aeon, mediaeval. Are
names an exception,

Yes, we write "Caesar", "Oedipus", etc. And we pronounce "Oedipus" as
if it were "Eddipus". I was very surprised in high school when a
teacher played us a British audio performance of /Oedipus the King/ that
appeared to be about "Eedipoos".

Post by grabber
or is another principle at work here? Greek vs Latin
perhaps?

I don't think Greek vs. Latin has anything to do with it.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Yes, we write "Caesar", "Oedipus", etc. And we pronounce "Oedipus" as
if it were "Eddipus".

Eh? Perhaps one of us needs to watch "The Band Wagon" again.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Jerry Friedman
Yes, we write "Caesar", "Oedipus", etc. And we pronounce "Oedipus" as
if it were "Eddipus".

Eh? Perhaps one of us needs to watch "The Band Wagon" again.

Doubtful. One of us probably doesn't mean himself, and the other one
has never seen it.

It's possible, though, that one of us needs to listen to Tom Lehrer's
song "Oedipus Rex". Anyway, "Eddipus" /'***@p@s/ is the only
pronunciation I've ever heard from an American.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Jerry Friedman
Yes, we write "Caesar", "Oedipus", etc. And we pronounce "Oedipus" as
if it were "Eddipus".

Eh? Perhaps one of us needs to watch "The Band Wagon" again.

Doubtful. One of us probably doesn't mean himself, and the other one
has never seen it.

Along with "Singin' in the Rain" and "The Blues Brothers", it's one of
the three musical movies that I like. The song in question is "That's
Entertainment", but the word also comes up in spoken dialogue and
I don't remember how Jack Buchanan pronounces it there; but now that
I think of it, I see that he was British anyway.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Jerry Friedman
Yes, we write "Caesar", "Oedipus", etc. And we pronounce "Oedipus" as
if it were "Eddipus".

Eh? Perhaps one of us needs to watch "The Band Wagon" again.

Doubtful. One of us probably doesn't mean himself, and the other one
has never seen it.

Along with "Singin' in the Rain" and "The Blues Brothers", it's one of
the three musical movies that I like. The song in question is "That's
Entertainment", but the word also comes up in spoken dialogue and
I don't remember how Jack Buchanan pronounces it there; but now that
I think of it, I see that he was British anyway.

In "Brush Up Your Shakespeare" (Cole Porter), it's "Esschylus and Euripides."

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
In "Brush Up Your Shakespeare" (Cole Porter), it's "Esschylus and Euripides."

I wonder if they ever got to meet Yooler and Oyclid....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate pronunciation, nor
*why* they came to the specific pronunciation conclusion, which generally
is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop
However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion", such
as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results appear to
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/
I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common as
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

I've never heard of anything but EE-sop (American English).

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English pronunciation
since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in general, the search
results show only one or the other (which is often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate pronunciation, nor
*why* they came to the specific pronunciation conclusion, which generally
is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop

How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

-GAWollman

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

Traditionally, it's because we pronounce "ae" as [i] (as in Aesop), and
a bare "e" as [E] (as in Essop). When I see the American spelling my
first reaction is to pronounce the first vowel in "pediatrician" like
the first vowel in "pedal".

That AmE spelling change was unwise, in my opinion, because it removed
the indication of the pronunciation.

The same problem occurs with the American spelling of words like
encyclopaedia and mediaeval, although the latter has since been revised
to medireview.

[bert]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

How often has an American mistakenly tried to consult
a 'pediatrician' about a problem with his feet? The
extra 'a' is to clarify that the word derives from
the Greek "paidos", child, and not "pedos", foot.
--

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by bert

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

How often has an American mistakenly tried to consult
a 'pediatrician' about a problem with his feet? The

Um, never?

"Pediatrician" doesn't sound much like "podiatrist" (which I gather
from *As Time Goes By* is usually "chiropodist" in England).

Post by bert
extra 'a' is to clarify that the word derives from
the Greek "paidos", child, and not "pedos", foot.

But "podiatrist" doesn't come from either.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bert

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

How often has an American mistakenly tried to consult
a 'pediatrician' about a problem with his feet? The

Um, never?
"Pediatrician" doesn't sound much like "podiatrist" (which I gather
from *As Time Goes By* is usually "chiropodist" in England).

A surprise for me - a fairly common medical specialty here in
Canada, which I didn't know existed before coming here.

[CDB]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Peter Moylan
How do the Ay-sop sayers pronounce words like paediatrician?

"Why is there an extra 'a' in 'pediatrician'?"

How often has an American mistakenly tried to consult a
'pediatrician' about a problem with his feet? The extra 'a' is to
clarify that the word derives from the Greek "paidos", child, and
not "pedos", foot.

Just for the record: "pais", child, and "pous", foot. They do have the
combining forms "ped-" and "pod-"*, but the form one gives of the word
in a discussion should be the nominative singular, as above.

*("pod-", not "ped-", for foot-related words from Greek; "ped-" is the
Latin combining form from the cognate "pes", as in "pedestal")

[Richard Tobin]

Post by CDB
*("pod-", not "ped-", for foot-related words from Greek; "ped-" is the
Latin combining form from the cognate "pes", as in "pedestal")

Hence the "correct" plural of "octopus", "octopodes".

-- Richard

[CDB]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English
pronunciation since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in
general, the search results show only one or the other (which is
often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate
pronunciation, nor *why* they came to the specific pronunciation
conclusion, which generally is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us

http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop

Post by Algeria Horan
However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion",
such as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/
I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to
properly pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion
group to ponder.

The name is Ancient Greek, and the first vowel was pronounced like our
pronoun "I", in both Greek and Latin.

Our version comes from the Latin version, which eventually changed the
pronunciation of that vowel from "I" to "ay" (as in "way"). After
more centuries, English changed the pronunciation of the same vowel
from "ay" to "ee".

So if you say "Aysop" you're using the traditional Latin pronunciation
from the Middle Ages, and if you say "Eesop" you're using the
traditional English pronunciation adopted since the Middle Ages.

I don't think anyone should fault you for either pronunciation. An
opinion, FWIW: I prefer English pronunciation for words and names that
are common in English, so I say "Eesop".

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Algeria Horan

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.
We would like further details into the correct (Am) English
pronunciation since a search shows *both* methods used, but, in
general, the search results show only one or the other (which is
often a sign of confusion).
For example, this youtube video pronounces Aesop as Ay-sop
http://youtu.be/iosSqGtCFlw
http://youtu.be/e1Dxg3h9HFw
What's worrisome is that neither mentions the alternate
pronunciation, nor *why* they came to the specific pronunciation
conclusion, which generally is a sign of poor research.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Aesop?pronunciation&lang=en_us

http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Aesop

Post by Algeria Horan
However, everyone seems to have an arbitrary unscientific "opinion",
such as this reputed poll on the pronunciation here where the results
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/211500-poll-aesop-as-in-fables-how-do-you-say-his-name/
I don't ask for an arbitrary *opinion*, since opinions are as common
http://forum.memoriapress.com/showthread.php?13895-How-to-pronounce-Aesop
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to
properly pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion
group to ponder.

The name is Ancient Greek, and the first vowel was pronounced like our
pronoun "I", in both Greek and Latin.
Our version comes from the Latin version, which eventually changed the
pronunciation of that vowel from "I" to "ay" (as in "way"). After
more centuries, English changed the pronunciation of the same vowel
from "ay" to "ee".
So if you say "Aysop" you're using the traditional Latin pronunciation
from the Middle Ages, and if you say "Eesop" you're using the
traditional English pronunciation adopted since the Middle Ages.
I don't think anyone should fault you for either pronunciation. An
opinion, FWIW: I prefer English pronunciation for words and names that
are common in English, so I say "Eesop".

Complete agreement.

[Algeria Horan]

Post by CDB
So if you say "Aysop" you're using the traditional Latin pronunciation
from the Middle Ages, and if you say "Eesop" you're using the
traditional English pronunciation adopted since the Middle Ages.

This is wonderful!

It's tenable.

And it explains why things are as they are.

Thanks!

[John Dunlop]

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.

...

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

"Eesop" is the only pronunciation given in the Longman Pronunciation
Dictionary.

Not that you asked, but I've (BrE) always said "Aysop" [***@p] (no
diphthong) and can't recall having heard "Eesop".

[musika]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.

...

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

"Eesop" is the only pronunciation given in the Longman Pronunciation
Dictionary.
diphthong) and can't recall having heard "Eesop".

And in the Black Country we have Ay-noch and Ay-lie.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Algeria Horan
Great books is discussing Aesop's Fables this month.

...

Post by Algeria Horan
What I'm simply asking is for a tenable rationale on *how* to properly
pronounce the name suitable for a Great Books' discussion group to ponder.

"Eesop" is the only pronunciation given in the Longman Pronunciation
Dictionary.
diphthong) and can't recall having heard "Eesop".

I have to say then that I have so far only ever heard "Eesop", but your
spelling "Aysop" is confusing if you wanted "no diphthong".

[John Dunlop]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by John Dunlop
diphthong) and can't recall having heard "Eesop".

I have to say then that I have so far only ever heard "Eesop", but your
spelling "Aysop" is confusing if you wanted "no diphthong".

That's the problem with respelling, isn't it? We don't all say "ay" the
same way. That's why I included the IPA.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by John Dunlop
diphthong) and can't recall having heard "Eesop".

I have to say then that I have so far only ever heard "Eesop", but your
spelling "Aysop" is confusing if you wanted "no diphthong".

That's the problem with respelling, isn't it? We don't all say "ay" the
same way. That's why I included the IPA.

It's a long time since I needed to say Aesop (in France people say La
Fontaine), but when I heard it as a lad the pronunciation was always
[ɪjsɔp].