Pronunciation of "Chthonic"

[Dan Clore]

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations
of the word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the
English (as opposed to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or
leave it silent. (The OED gives it as pronounced; no other
dictionary that I've checked does so.)
--
Dan Clore

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-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"

[Paul Wolff]

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed to
Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED gives it as
pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming the
ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation. I'd do so just as I pronounce phthalic with a ph (and
not dropping the th, for the avoidance of doubt).

I doubt if I've ever written or spoken chthonic in earnest, though I
have used autochthonic, because I like it and it's useful.

[Laura F. Spira]

Post by Paul Wolff

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed to
Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED gives it
as pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming the
ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation. I'd do so just as I pronounce phthalic with a ph (and
not dropping the th, for the avoidance of doubt).
I doubt if I've ever written or spoken chthonic in earnest, though I
have used autochthonic, because I like it and it's useful.

I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry seems
to indicate.

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

[Des Small]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

I haven't heard it spoken either, and when I read it it's usually in
French. Nonetheless, I like it very much (better than indigenous or
aboriginal or especially native) and hear it with a [kT] in imaginary
English. [tST] is a non-starter in English phonotacticity, surely?

Des
can say it, sort of

[Mike Lyle]

Des Small wrote:
[...]

Post by Des Small
I haven't heard it spoken either, and when I read it it's usually in
French. Nonetheless, I like it very much (better than indigenous or
aboriginal or especially native) and hear it with a [kT] in imaginary
English. [...]

But that's not what it means, shirley? That looks like "autochthonous",
which, in turn, doesn't mean the same as "native": "aboriginal" is a
better match, while "indigenous" seems rather ambiguous. "Chthonic"
(maybe not a very happy formation?) would, in my admittedly rare
experience, mean "of the earth" or, more particularly, "of the
subterranean world": "Hades is the chthonian god".

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Des Small
I haven't heard it spoken either, and when I read it it's usually in
French. Nonetheless, I like it very much (better than indigenous or
aboriginal or especially native) and hear it with a [kT] in imaginary
English. [...]

But that's not what it means, shirley? That looks like

I'm glad you asked. I've heard it used as an alternative to "atavistic" and
"visceral", and dimly apprehended that was what it meant. But it seems to
mean plain "hellish". I was working through the dictionaries at onelook and
had not found a break in their unanimity when interrupted by RL.

Post by Mike Lyle
"aboriginal" is a better match, while "indigenous" seems rather
ambiguous. "Chthonic" (maybe not a very happy formation?) would, in
my admittedly rare experience, mean "of the earth" or, more
particularly, "of the subterranean world": "Hades is the chthonian
god".

[Des Small]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Des Small
I haven't heard it spoken either, and when I read it it's usually in
French. Nonetheless, I like it very much (better than indigenous or
aboriginal or especially native) and hear it with a [kT] in imaginary
English. [...]

But that's not what it means, shirley? That looks like "autochthonous",

For sure; I took the <auto-> to be visually silent.

Des
has a reading impediment

[benlizross]

Post by Des Small

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

I haven't heard it spoken either, and when I read it it's usually in
French. Nonetheless, I like it very much (better than indigenous or
aboriginal or especially native) and hear it with a [kT] in imaginary
English. [tST] is a non-starter in English phonotacticity, surely?
Des
can say it, sort of

Huh! So I find I've been reading "autochtone" incorrectly to my mind's
ear all these years, with /St/.
Larousse prescribes /kt/ for this and also for "chtonien" (more or less
the equivalent of "chthonic"), and who am I to argue?

Ross Clark

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

But in English orthography, the <h> in the <h>-digraphs doesn't
represent aspiration. As the others are saying, the most obvious
interpretation of the English orthography is [kT-], which is indeed
what's found in the much more familiar "autochthonous."

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in English orthography, the <h> in the <h>-digraphs doesn't
represent aspiration.

Whilst not disagreeing with what you say below, the above seems a little
overgeneralised. The way some people pronounce "wh" is only one example.

As the others are saying, the most obvious

Post by Peter T. Daniels
interpretation of the English orthography is [kT-], which is indeed
what's found in the much more familiar "autochthonous."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter T. Daniels
But in English orthography, the <h> in the <h>-digraphs doesn't
represent aspiration.

Whilst not disagreeing with what you say below, the above seems a little
overgeneralised. The way some people pronounce "wh" is only one example.

No, the (moribund) sound of <wh>, IPA symbol "turned w," does not
represent an "aspirated w" (whatever that would be), but a voiceless
[w].

There are no ("other") examples of English h-digraphs where the h
represents aspiration. (For the simple reason that aspiration is not
phonemic in English, and hence is not something that would be
represented in the orthography!)

Post by Robert Bannister
As the others are saying, the most obvious

Post by Peter T. Daniels
interpretation of the English orthography is [kT-], which is indeed
what's found in the much more familiar "autochthonous."

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:46:52 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken.

I've heard it a few times, always with silent <ch>. When
reading I tend to 'hear' it as written, with [xT]; when I
say it experimentally, it seems that the initial velar
gesture ranges from full stop ([k]) to damn' near
non-existent and usually produces a very soft [x].

Post by Peter Moylan
When I read the word, my mind's ear renders it as ktonic,
with the two aitches providing aspiration rather than
creating an English "th".

This is clearly incompatible with any English orthographic
practice, since English doesn't use <h> this way.

Brian

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some of
those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems to have
a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Robert Bannister
I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some
of those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems
to have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Speakers of Russian are so unfazed by consonant clusters that it's a bit
of a mystery why they bothered keeping any vowels.

[mUs1Ka]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some of
those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems to
have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Vod ktonic.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Robert Bannister
I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some
of those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems
to have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Vod ktonic.

I prefer mine either straight or with something more fruity, thanks.

ObEtymology: Is it mere coincidence that the Russian words for "vodka"
and "water" are almost identical?

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by mUs1Ka
Vod ktonic.

I prefer mine either straight or with something more fruity, thanks.

Ahhh, screwdrivers! -- the cocktail with healthful vitamins.

Post by Peter Moylan
ObEtymology: Is it mere coincidence that the Russian words for "vodka"
and "water" are almost identical?

It is not. "Vodka" is the diminutive of "voda" = "water".

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Robert Bannister
I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some
of those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems
to have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Vod ktonic.

I prefer mine either straight or with something more fruity, thanks.

The last time I was in Russian, or more strictly speaking the former
Soviet Union, was a long time ago, and in those days there appeared to
be no way of asking for vodka with something to dilute it apart from the
word for juice. I got quite good at asking for "Odnu vodku s sokom".
Mostly, I was given ginger ale or bitter lemon and occasionally orange
juice, but somewhere down South - in a village in Uzbekistan - I was
given peach juice.

Understand, this bar sold no beer, only spirits, and I couldn't imagine
an evening drinking neat vodka, but this peach juice was the bestest
peach juice you can imagine: you could have stood a spoon up in it, it
was so thick. It was also very sweet and sickly. I bravely managed 3
drinks and had to retire to bed at about 8:30, as there was nothing else
to do.

[Iskandar Baharuddin]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:40:31 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Robert Bannister
I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some
of those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems
to have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Vod ktonic.

I prefer mine either straight or with something more fruity, thanks.

The last time I was in Russian, or more strictly speaking the former
Soviet Union, was a long time ago, and in those days there appeared to
be no way of asking for vodka with something to dilute it apart from the
word for juice. I got quite good at asking for "Odnu vodku s sokom".
Mostly, I was given ginger ale or bitter lemon and occasionally orange
juice, but somewhere down South - in a village in Uzbekistan - I was
given peach juice.
Understand, this bar sold no beer, only spirits, and I couldn't imagine
an evening drinking neat vodka, but this peach juice was the bestest
peach juice you can imagine: you could have stood a spoon up in it, it
was so thick. It was also very sweet and sickly. I bravely managed 3
drinks and had to retire to bed at about 8:30, as there was nothing else
to do.

That peach juice always hits me hard, too.

Even worse if you put vodka in it.
--
Shalom & Salam

Izzy

"The only good thing about this job is that it drives me to drink."

- P S Kelly, quoting the proprietor of a record store in Queens.

[Paul J Kriha]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by mUs1Ka

Post by Robert Bannister
I can say "kthonic" and "chthonic", but "ktonic" reminds me of some
of those Russian words that are so hard to pronounce. Russian seems
to have a number of words beginning with both kt and tk.

Vod ktonic.

I prefer mine either straight or with something more fruity, thanks.

The last time I was in Russian,

Oy, Robert, my first impression was that this was a beginning
of a dirty story. :-)

Post by Robert Bannister
or more strictly speaking the former
Soviet Union, was a long time ago, and in those days there appeared to
be no way of asking for vodka with something to dilute it apart from the
word for juice. I got quite good at asking for "Odnu vodku s sokom".

In your first hand experience, did you hear any anaptyxis in
"s sokom". In W.Slavic there would an "e" inserted, and
it's even formalised in written form.

Recently, in an old film footage I saw a banner with
an exhortation "Vperyod k komunismu". Now, that I
would also find difficult to pronounce without an "e"
or "u" inserted between the two "k"s.

pjk

Post by Robert Bannister
Mostly, I was given ginger ale or bitter lemon and occasionally orange
juice, but somewhere down South - in a village in Uzbekistan - I was
given peach juice.
Understand, this bar sold no beer, only spirits, and I couldn't imagine
an evening drinking neat vodka, but this peach juice was the bestest
peach juice you can imagine: you could have stood a spoon up in it, it
was so thick. It was also very sweet and sickly. I bravely managed 3
drinks and had to retire to bed at about 8:30, as there was nothing else
to do.
Rob Bannister

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Paul J Kriha

Post by Robert Bannister
The last time I was in Russian,

Oy, Robert, my first impression was that this was a beginning
of a dirty story.

Sorry about the typo.

Post by Paul J Kriha

Post by Robert Bannister
or more strictly speaking the former
Soviet Union, was a long time ago, and in those days there appeared to
be no way of asking for vodka with something to dilute it apart from the
word for juice. I got quite good at asking for "Odnu vodku s sokom".

In your first hand experience, did you hear any anaptyxis in
"s sokom". In W.Slavic there would an "e" inserted, and
it's even formalised in written form.

I couldn't find a single free dictionary that knew the word "anaptyxis",
but I am guessing it means inserting an extra vowel. In Russian, the two
forms exist: s and so, but AFAIK the full form is not usually required
before a word beginning with s. I find it particularly difficult to get
my tongue round "with ice" (s ldyom), but practice and vodka help.

[Nigel Greenwood]

Post by Robert Bannister
I couldn't find a single free dictionary that knew the word "anaptyxis",
but I am guessing it means inserting an extra vowel. In Russian, the two
forms exist: s and so, but AFAIK the full form is not usually required
before a word beginning with s.

со (so) is often necessary when the following word begins with two
consonants: eg со сливами (so slivami) "with plums".

Post by Robert Bannister
I find it particularly difficult to get
my tongue round "with ice" (s ldyom),

Spare your poor tongue the trouble! The standard Russian is со
льдом (so l'dom). Pushkin memorably rhymes this expression with
the instrumental Чильд-Гарольдом (Chil'd Garol'dom)
"Childe Harold" in Eugene Onegin.

Nigel

--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

[me]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me, which is what the OED entry
seems to indicate.

On the rare occasions that I have geard the word, that is what I have heard.

I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word, my
mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

Where is the aspiration? Is it [kt<h>Onic]? (Englishmen don't normally
pronounce [t<h>]; Indians do.

[Peter Moylan]

[aue restored to the list of newsgroups; not because of Hinesian
motives, but because I don't read sci.lang.]

Post by me

Post by Peter Moylan
I don't believe I've ever heard it spoken. When I read the word,
my mind's ear renders it as ktonic, with the two aitches providing
aspiration rather than creating an English "th".

Where is the aspiration? Is it [kt<h>Onic]? (Englishmen don't
normally pronounce [t<h>]; Indians do.

The standard hand-in-front-of-mouth test shows two puffs of air, with
the second being stronger than the first.

The way I see it is that what English speakers normally do is of
secondary importance. The word "chthonic" is officially a word in
English, but I'd guess that most people wouldn't see it as a fully
naturalised word. That means that the normal rules of English
pronunciation are suspended.

Indeed, it happens even with some words that are seen as only
semi-foreign. We're not supposed to have nasalised vowels in English,
but I've heard plenty of native English speakers use a French "an" when
pronouncing "lingerie". (They still get the vowels wrong, but that's a
separate problem.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

[Laura F. Spira]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the
cat). I can say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with
the "loch" pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because
starting with the "ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your
throat (in that particularly nasty old-man manner followed by
spitting, which I think is called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak
(for instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

[Mike Lyle]

Peter Moylan wrote:
[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I
know of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice
versa, but so far I haven't heard of any language that has both,
unless you count the occasional imported word (like the "loch" in
English; and even there most English speakers don't pronounce it the
Scottish way).

Arabic has an Aladdin's cave full of consonants, including both "th" and
"kh" -- which can appear together. Some dialects reduce the number,
though: "th", for example, becomes "s" in some places. Curiously, amid
all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard "g". It does have a
Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the sound is written "hl".

[me]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I
know of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice
versa, but so far I haven't heard of any language that has both,
unless you count the occasional imported word (like the "loch" in
English; and even there most English speakers don't pronounce it the
Scottish way).

Arabic has an Aladdin's cave full of consonants, including both "th" and
"kh" -- which can appear together. Some dialects reduce the number,
though: "th", for example, becomes "s" in some places. Curiously, amid
all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard "g".

/q/ is pronounced by some as [g]. Qandahar probably comes from [gand<h>Ara].

[d<h>] meaning breathy [d].

Post by Mike Lyle
It does have a
Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the sound is written "hl".

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I
know of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice
versa, but so far I haven't heard of any language that has both,
unless you count the occasional imported word (like the "loch" in
English; and even there most English speakers don't pronounce it the
Scottish way).

Arabic has an Aladdin's cave full of consonants, including both "th" and
"kh" -- which can appear together. Some dialects reduce the number,
though: "th", for example, becomes "s" in some places. Curiously, amid

the normal reflex of classical /*th*/ in interdental-less colloquials
is [t].

the pronounciation [s] is used in classical - loans in these dialects.
i.e. it is a very low register pronounciation of standard / classical
arabic.

Post by Mike Lyle
all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard "g". It does have a

various classical phonemes (/j/ and /q/) have a variant as [g] and thus
it appears in lower recitations of standard arabic (esp. for /j/) and
tolerated in some countries (like Egypt) for non-religious (or when not
reciting classical poetry and the like) situations like on radio. it is
also tolerated for foreign words and names in similar situations.

arabs have more difficulty with [p] which is absent in most
colloquials, except in a few like Iraqi.

Post by Mike Lyle
Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the sound is written "hl".
--
Mike.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I
know of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice
versa, but so far I haven't heard of any language that has both,
unless you count the occasional imported word (like the "loch" in
English; and even there most English speakers don't pronounce it the
Scottish way).

Arabic has an Aladdin's cave full of consonants, including both "th" and
"kh" -- which can appear together. Some dialects reduce the number,
though: "th", for example, becomes "s" in some places. Curiously, amid
all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard "g". It does have a
Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the sound is written "hl".

huh?

devoicing of /l/ is not phonemic in arabic and there is no diagraph to
represent it.

velarized or emphatic l occurs as a rule only in the word alla:h and
there is no special sign to represent it. it also commonly occurs in
the pronounciations of a few other words like xa:l "maternal uncle" and
xa:la(t) "maternal aunt". more examples are foudn in colloquials.
arabic script kurdish represents it as a lam <l> with a small v sign on
top.

various different types of laterals including velar and devoiced are
found in the Caucasian languages and when written in arabic based
script dots or strokes on the lam are used.

Post by Mike Lyle
--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

[...]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Curiously, amid all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard
"g". It does have a Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the
sound is written "hl".

huh?
devoicing of /l/ is not phonemic in arabic and there is no diagraph
to represent it.

[...]

Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I can't
tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced. "Gelli".
"Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced. Maybe unvoiced
in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll", spoken on its own, as
also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree that doesn't sound like
the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about this before, but I think there
are two pronunciations in Welsh, partly dependent on position. That
would be consistent with the way it turns to plain "l" in some words in
some varieties. Maybe a real Welsh-speaker is reading this and will
clarify -- not that real Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about
the language!

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Curiously, amid all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard
"g". It does have a Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the
sound is written "hl".

huh?
devoicing of /l/ is not phonemic in arabic and there is no diagraph
to represent it.

[...]
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I can't
tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced. "Gelli".
"Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced. Maybe unvoiced
in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll", spoken on its own, as
also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree that doesn't sound like
the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about this before, but I think there

the point is that it is not a sepearate phoneme in arabic. just a
position dependent allophone.

Post by Mike Lyle
are two pronunciations in Welsh, partly dependent on position. That
would be consistent with the way it turns to plain "l" in some words in
some varieties. Maybe a real Welsh-speaker is reading this and will
clarify -- not that real Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about
the language!
--
Mike.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Curiously, amid all those riches, standard Arabic hasn't got a hard
"g". It does have a Welsh "ll", but not as a single letter: the
sound is written "hl".

huh?
devoicing of /l/ is not phonemic in arabic and there is no diagraph
to represent it.

[...]
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I
can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.
Maybe unvoiced in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll",
spoken on its own, as also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree
that doesn't sound like the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about
this before, but I think there

the point is that it is not a sepearate phoneme in arabic. just a
position dependent allophone.

[...]

Well, yes; but my point was only about the sound as a sound. I live
among people who claim they can't produce the sound because it isn't
found in their language.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:44:31 +0100: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I can't
tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.

The hl in "ahlan wa sahlan"? Or he ll in Llanberis?
If the latter is voiced, how is is different from a normal l?

Post by Mike Lyle
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.

So how do you distinguish it from a normal l? More fricative? Tenser?
A [h] after it?
Sam questions for Welsh <r> and <rh>.

Post by Mike Lyle
Maybe unvoiced
in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll", spoken on its own, as
also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree that doesn't sound like
the Arabic pair.

The combination [hl] (with either a voiced or uncoiced [h], both
exist) isn't the same as a voiceless lateral fricative which I suppose
is what the Welsh usually is.

Post by Mike Lyle
I'd never thought about this before, but I think there
are two pronunciations in Welsh, partly dependent on position. That
would be consistent with the way it turns to plain "l" in some words in
some varieties. Maybe a real Welsh-speaker is reading this and will
clarify -- not that real Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about
the language!

Rather than seeing described what Welsh speaker thinks they are
saying, I'd rather hear what they actually do say. Any samples out
there?
Native speakers are notoriously unreliable when describing the
pronunciation of their own language.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:44:31 +0100: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I
can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.

The hl in "ahlan wa sahlan"? Or he ll in Llanberis?
If the latter is voiced, how is is different from a normal l?

I said I was having difficulty in deciding whether it was voiced or not.
As I said below, I think there must be two realisations dependent on
position: one of these may not be a "pure" ell, in the sense that it's
perhaps closer to an h followed by an l.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Mike Lyle
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.

So how do you distinguish it from a normal l? More fricative? Tenser?

See above.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
A [h] after it?

No.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sam questions for Welsh <r> and <rh>.

I hear at least three versions of "rh", of which I'd say the rarest was
an attempt to pronounce the "r" and the "h" in that order, and the
commonest "h" followed by "r". The only one I'd say was actually a
single sound is the informal "r".

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Mike Lyle
Maybe unvoiced
in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll", spoken on its own, as
also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree that doesn't sound like
the Arabic pair.

The combination [hl] (with either a voiced or uncoiced [h], both
exist) isn't the same as a voiceless lateral fricative which I suppose
is what the Welsh usually is.

I think I've covered that above, as far as I can. I don't recognise the
idea of a voiced "h", but I'll take your word for its existence.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Mike Lyle
I'd never thought about this before, but I think there
are two pronunciations in Welsh, partly dependent on position. That
would be consistent with the way it turns to plain "l" in some words
in some varieties. Maybe a real Welsh-speaker is reading this and
will clarify -- not that real Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths
about the language!

Rather than seeing described what Welsh speaker thinks they are
saying, I'd rather hear what they actually do say. Any samples out
there?
Native speakers are notoriously unreliable when describing the
pronunciation of their own language.

As I said, Welsh-speakers aren't all immune to myths about the language.
But of course non-speakers of a language are conspicuously unreliable
when describing what they think it sounds like. There must be samples
out there: you might perhaps find it worth Ggling "Academi Gymreig" ,
"Cymdeithas yr Iaith", or "University Aberystwyth".

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:25:06 +0100: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
As I said, Welsh-speakers aren't all immune to myths about the language.
But of course non-speakers of a language are conspicuously unreliable
when describing what they think it sounds like. There must be samples
out there: you might perhaps find it worth Ggling "Academi Gymreig" ,
"Cymdeithas yr Iaith", or "University Aberystwyth".

This dictionary has samples:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/wales/learnwelsh/welsh_dictionary.pl
(Pronunciation samples are only show when finding a word through
English, not when directly entered as Welsh).

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:25:06 +0100: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:44:31 +0100: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I
can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.

The hl in "ahlan wa sahlan"? Or he ll in Llanberis?
If the latter is voiced, how is is different from a normal l?

I said I was having difficulty in deciding whether it was voiced or not.

I asked what you mean by 'it', and you repeat it without explaining.

Post by Mike Lyle
As I said below, I think there must be two realisations dependent on
position: one of these may not be a "pure" ell, in the sense that it's
perhaps closer to an h followed by an l.

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Mike Lyle
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.

So how do you distinguish it from a normal l? More fricative? Tenser?

See above.

I still don't understand what you mean, either way.

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Ruud Harmsen
The combination [hl] (with either a voiced or uncoiced [h], both
exist) isn't the same as a voiceless lateral fricative which I suppose
is what the Welsh usually is.

I think I've covered that above, as far as I can. I don't recognise the
idea of a voiced "h", but I'll take your word for its existence.

It does exist, the Dutch /h/ usually is one, for example. Perhaps the
German one too.

Post by Mike Lyle
As I said, Welsh-speakers aren't all immune to myths about the language.
But of course non-speakers of a language are conspicuously unreliable
when describing what they think it sounds like.

Many are, some are not.

Post by Mike Lyle
There must be samples
out there: you might perhaps find it worth Ggling "Academi Gymreig" ,
"Cymdeithas yr Iaith", or "University Aberystwyth".

[Neeraj Mathur]

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I can't
tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced. "Gelli".
"Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced. Maybe unvoiced
in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll", spoken on its own, as
also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree that doesn't sound like
the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about this before, but I think there
are two pronunciations in Welsh, partly dependent on position. That
would be consistent with the way it turns to plain "l" in some words in
some varieties. Maybe a real Welsh-speaker is reading this and will
clarify -- not that real Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about
the language!

The premise of your question is wrong. The Welsh <ll> does not represent a
sequence [hl] at all. It is an aspirated, voiceless, lateral. It is also
'clear'; the normal Welsh single <l> is 'dark'.

Neeraj Mathur

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I
can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.
Maybe unvoiced in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll",
spoken on its own, as also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree
that doesn't sound like the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about
this before, but I think there are two pronunciations in Welsh,
partly dependent on position. That would be consistent with the way
it turns to plain "l" in some words in some varieties. Maybe a real
Welsh-speaker is reading this and will clarify -- not that real
Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about the language!

The premise of your question is wrong. The Welsh <ll> does not
represent a sequence [hl] at all. It is an aspirated, voiceless,
lateral. It is also 'clear'; the normal Welsh single <l> is 'dark'.

It wasn't my question. I was attempting an answer. What you say about
"ll" is, to my ear at any rate, more theoretical than real: but it's
certainly what they say in the books, I agree. See upthread somewhere.
And the normal Welsh single l certainly isn't dark: maybe up Liverpool
way, but elsewhere, Welsh people use a much lighter l than English
people in all positions.

[Neeraj Mathur]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
Ahlan wa sahlan! I'm saying "Llanberis", but for the life of me I
can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or devoiced.
"Gelli". "Llanelli". No, still not sure, but I think it's voiced.
Maybe unvoiced in "allt"? Seems genuinely voiceless in "pwll",
spoken on its own, as also in the name of the sound, "ell": I agree
that doesn't sound like the Arabic pair. I'd never thought about
this before, but I think there are two pronunciations in Welsh,
partly dependent on position. That would be consistent with the way
it turns to plain "l" in some words in some varieties. Maybe a real
Welsh-speaker is reading this and will clarify -- not that real
Welsh-speakers are all immune to myths about the language!

The premise of your question is wrong. The Welsh <ll> does not
represent a sequence [hl] at all. It is an aspirated, voiceless,
lateral. It is also 'clear'; the normal Welsh single <l> is 'dark'.

It wasn't my question. I was attempting an answer.

Your words "I can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or
devoiced" implied, to me, a question: "is the "l" bit of the "hl" voiced or
devoiced?", the premise of which is wrong.

Post by Mike Lyle
What you say about
"ll" is, to my ear at any rate, more theoretical than real: but it's
certainly what they say in the books, I agree. See upthread somewhere.
And the normal Welsh single l certainly isn't dark: maybe up Liverpool
way, but elsewhere, Welsh people use a much lighter l than English
people in all positions.

Which Welsh people have you been listening to? My Welsh teacher was from
Anglesey, and she certainly has a very dark single 'l' when speaking Welsh
in all positions. I noticed, and got her to repeat words again to be
certain; I listened for it very carefully from then on. Listen to Yr Wythnos
on the BBC website - you'll see that it's dark. Perhaps the Welsh people you
were listening to had a regional accent that was less dark?

And I have been listening to 'll' pronunciations again, to be sure of what
I'm saying, on Yr Wythnos and on my Teach Yourself Welsh CDs. I think the
best description for it would be 'voiceless post-alveolar lateral
fricative', which removes any need to talk about aspiration.

Neeraj Mathur

[Mike Lyle]

[...]

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
It wasn't my question. I was attempting an answer.

Your words "I can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or
devoiced" implied, to me, a question: "is the "l" bit of the "hl"
voiced or devoiced?", the premise of which is wrong.

Ah, I see. No, I was responding to Yusuf, who raised the voicing issue
when I said "ahlan" contained the same sound as "Llanelli". On mature
consideration, though, I hear I was wrong: my pronunciation of the
Arabic has been influenced by Welsh.

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
What you say about
"ll" is, to my ear at any rate, more theoretical than real: but it's
certainly what they say in the books, I agree. See upthread
somewhere. And the normal Welsh single l certainly isn't dark: maybe
up Liverpool way, but elsewhere, Welsh people use a much lighter l
than English people in all positions.

Which Welsh people have you been listening to? My Welsh teacher was
from Anglesey, and she certainly has a very dark single 'l' when
speaking Welsh in all positions. I noticed, and got her to repeat
words again to be certain; I listened for it very carefully from then

As I said, Liverpool way. That's North Wales. my twenty years among
Welsh-speakers was in the South.

Post by Neeraj Mathur
on. Listen to Yr Wythnos on the BBC website - you'll see that it's
dark. Perhaps the Welsh people you were listening to had a regional
accent that was less dark?
And I have been listening to 'll' pronunciations again, to be sure of
what I'm saying, on Yr Wythnos and on my Teach Yourself Welsh CDs. I
think the best description for it would be 'voiceless post-alveolar
lateral fricative', which removes any need to talk about aspiration.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I think. I just don't find that
textbook description applies to all realisations.

[Neeraj Mathur]

Post by Mike Lyle
[...]

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
It wasn't my question. I was attempting an answer.

Your words "I can't tell whether the "l" bit of the "hl" is voiced or
devoiced" implied, to me, a question: "is the "l" bit of the "hl"
voiced or devoiced?", the premise of which is wrong.

Ah, I see. No, I was responding to Yusuf, who raised the voicing issue
when I said "ahlan" contained the same sound as "Llanelli".

Oh! Sorry about the confusion.

Post by Mike Lyle
On mature
consideration, though, I hear I was wrong: my pronunciation of the
Arabic has been influenced by Welsh.

Okay. I'm not sure that I've ever heard an Arabic 'ahlan' that sounds quite
like a Welsh 'allan' either.

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Mike Lyle
What you say about
"ll" is, to my ear at any rate, more theoretical than real: but it's
certainly what they say in the books, I agree. See upthread
somewhere. And the normal Welsh single l certainly isn't dark: maybe
up Liverpool way, but elsewhere, Welsh people use a much lighter l
than English people in all positions.

Which Welsh people have you been listening to? My Welsh teacher was
from Anglesey, and she certainly has a very dark single 'l' when
speaking Welsh in all positions. I noticed, and got her to repeat
words again to be certain; I listened for it very carefully from then

As I said, Liverpool way. That's North Wales. my twenty years among
Welsh-speakers was in the South.

Okay; I'm still confused by 'Liverpool'. My teacher, Lowri, certainly didn't
have anything particularly dark about her 'l' when speaking English; there
she seemed to pattern normally. Listening again to my CD and Yr Wythnos, I
suppose that some of her 'l's might have been darker than what I'm hearing,
but I'm also sure that these recordings are on the darker rather than
lighter end of the spectrum. Am I hearing wrongly? It's possible - I'm a bit
unwell.

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Neeraj Mathur
on. Listen to Yr Wythnos on the BBC website - you'll see that it's
dark. Perhaps the Welsh people you were listening to had a regional
accent that was less dark?
And I have been listening to 'll' pronunciations again, to be sure of
what I'm saying, on Yr Wythnos and on my Teach Yourself Welsh CDs. I
think the best description for it would be 'voiceless post-alveolar
lateral fricative', which removes any need to talk about aspiration.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I think. I just don't find that
textbook description applies to all realisations.

Okay.

Neeraj Mathur

[Ruud Harmsen]

Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:25:19 +0100: "Neeraj Mathur"

Post by Neeraj Mathur
The premise of your question is wrong. The Welsh <ll> does not represent a
sequence [hl] at all. It is an aspirated, voiceless, lateral. It is also
'clear'; the normal Welsh single <l> is 'dark'.

Not in the Word rhaglen = program,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/wales/learnwelsh/welsh_dictionary.pl?gair=programme&Chwilio=Search
Try also part = rhanu for rh.

(Strangely, I only hear the samples after the second time I click, not
the first).

All the ll's I heard were voiceless, e.g. in book = llyfr, letter =
llythyr.

I was wondering about ll in sillf (which my old "teach yourself" gave
for English shelf), but it's actually a typo in that book, should be
silff, and that's what I hear.
(Not that in Welsh <f> = /v/ and <ff> = /f/).

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the
cat). I can say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with
the "loch" pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because
starting with the "ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your
throat (in that particularly nasty old-man manner followed by
spitting, which I think is called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak
(for instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Doesn't Greek have both?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Doesn't Greek have both?

[bangs head against wall]

[mb]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Doesn't Greek have both?

[bangs head against wall]

Don't bang it too hard. I have a little nitpicking to do there.
Just because "chthonic" is a Greek word doesn't automatically mean that
chthV- sequences are normally pronounced /xT/-. They aren't. In the
spoken language, there is evidence that suggests that the passage from
the ancient Grk /k(h) t(h)/- was to /xt(h)/- then the modern /xt/-.
Syllables written with two fricatives at the start are so pronounced
only in bookish words --so that in a modern Greek mouth, chthonic is a
spelling pronunciation.

[Jim Heckman]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Modern Standard Arabic does.

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

? Castillian Spanish, MS Arabic, Greek, Welsh, Albanian, ...

Post by Peter Moylan
unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

[Jim Heckman]

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Modern Standard Arabic does.

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

? Castillian Spanish, MS Arabic, Greek, Welsh, Albanian, ...

Oops, forget Albanian; I somehow switched from "kh" to "dh" while
making a mental list. But the others are right.

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Modern Standard Arabic does.

and colloquials like Iraqi, Gulf, Yemeni, Hassa:niyya (Mauritania),
some rural areas of Greater Syria

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

? Castillian Spanish, MS Arabic, Greek, Welsh, Albanian, ...

ditto.

Turkmen (reflexes of /s/ and /z/, Bashkir (AFAIK at least *dh* is
phonemic) x may be marginal phoneme in Turkic words and a phoneme in
Russian loans.

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

--
Jim Heckman

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Modern Standard Arabic does.

and colloquials like Iraqi, Gulf, Yemeni, Hassa:niyya (Mauritania),
some rural areas of Greater Syria

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

? Castillian Spanish, MS Arabic, Greek, Welsh, Albanian, ...

ditto.
Turkmen (reflexes of /s/ and /z/, Bashkir (AFAIK at least *dh* is
phonemic) x may be marginal phoneme in Turkic words and a phoneme in
Russian loans.

I'm not sure about [*th*] in Bashkir, but I seem to remember such a
claimmade by a poster here some time ago. there is a seperate letter
for *dh*.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

--
Jim Heckman

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Modern Standard Arabic does.

and of course Classical Arabic on which it is based.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
and colloquials like Iraqi, Gulf, Yemeni, Hassa:niyya (Mauritania),
some rural areas of Greater Syria

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

? Castillian Spanish, MS Arabic, Greek, Welsh, Albanian, ...

ditto.

and of course, Classical Arabic.

[Dr. Joel M. Hoffman]

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Modern Israeli Hebrew does not have "th," and it's a particularly
difficult sound for most Israelis to pronounce. (It does, however,
have a standard orthography: TAF-apostrophe.) Yemenite Hebrew has
"th" and "kh."

-Joel M. Hoffman, PhD
http://www.exc.com/JoelHoffman

[Jim Heckman]

Post by Dr. Joel M. Hoffman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Modern Israeli Hebrew does not have "th," and it's a particularly
difficult sound for most Israelis to pronounce. (It does, however,
have a standard orthography: TAF-apostrophe.) Yemenite Hebrew has
"th" and "kh."

? Where does Yemenite Hebrew use "th" [T]? Surely it hasn't
maintained the Tiberian "begad kefat" development for tav, has it?

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Dr. Joel M. Hoffman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Modern Israeli Hebrew does not have "th," and it's a particularly
difficult sound for most Israelis to pronounce. (It does, however,
have a standard orthography: TAF-apostrophe.) Yemenite Hebrew has
"th" and "kh."

? Where does Yemenite Hebrew use "th" [T]? Surely it hasn't
maintained the Tiberian "begad kefat" development for tav, has it?

IIRC it does. you can look up the recitation of Hebrew by various
communites (though these differences may be dying out) in Enc. Judaica
"Hebrew Grammar" and "Pronounciation of Hebrew".

yemenite arabic incidentally does have the interdentals.

Post by Jim Heckman
--
Jim Heckman

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Yusuf B Gursey

Post by Jim Heckman

Post by Dr. Joel M. Hoffman

Post by Peter Moylan
Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

Modern Israeli Hebrew does not have "th," and it's a particularly
difficult sound for most Israelis to pronounce. (It does, however,
have a standard orthography: TAF-apostrophe.) Yemenite Hebrew has
"th" and "kh."

? Where does Yemenite Hebrew use "th" [T]? Surely it hasn't
maintained the Tiberian "begad kefat" development for tav, has it?

IIRC it does. you can look up the recitation of Hebrew by various

yup. checked it. so does Babylonian / Iraqi (as does Iraqi colloquial
arabic). but the recitation of Hebrew for these have [H] for Heth and
[x] only for the allophone of /k/.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
communites (though these differences may be dying out) in Enc. Judaica
"Hebrew Grammar" and "Pronounciation of Hebrew".
yemenite arabic incidentally does have the interdentals.

Post by Jim Heckman
--
Jim Heckman

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the
cat). I can say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with
the "loch" pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because
starting with the "ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your
throat (in that particularly nasty old-man manner followed by
spitting, which I think is called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak
(for instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"? I know

Biblical Hebrew Heth <H> represented both /H/ and /x/ while the [*th*]
and [x] allophones of /t/ and /k/ probably developed later.

masoretic hebrew of the 1st millenium (and the underlying aramaic)
probably had [H] for Heth and the allophones [*th*] and [x] for /t/ and
/k/ based on loanwords in arabic and judeo-arabic writing, jewish
grammatical works and recitations of Hebrew in arab countries.

Post by Peter Moylan
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both, unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).
--

[me]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the
cat). I can say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with
the "loch" pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because
starting with the "ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your
throat (in that particularly nasty old-man manner followed by
spitting, which I think is called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak
(for instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Do Hebrew or Arabic have a sound equivalent to the English "th"?

Arabic does.

Post by Peter Moylan
I know
of languages that have the "th" but not the "kh", and vice versa, but so
far I haven't heard of any language that has both,

Avestan has both /T/ and /X/. We don't know any native Avestan speakers
though, so we can't be sure how similar they were to English [T] and
Scottish [X].

Post by Peter Moylan
unless you count the
occasional imported word (like the "loch" in English; and even there
most English speakers don't pronounce it the Scottish way).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

Or she can say a Het just fine when it occurs before a vowel, which
she's used to, but not when it begins a word and is followed by a /T/,
which she's not used to.

[Al in Dallas]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

Or she can say a Het just fine when it occurs before a vowel, which
she's used to, but not when it begins a word and is followed by a /T/,
which she's not used to.

I wish all of life's mysteries were so easily resolved.

[Laura F. Spira]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

My point referred to the combination of "ch" followed by "th". You've
snipped Paul's pronunciation suggestion, which I found difficult to
replicate.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

My point referred to the combination of "ch" followed by "th". You've
snipped Paul's pronunciation suggestion, which I found difficult to
replicate.

I snipped absolutely nothing from your paragraph, and Paul's suggestion,
as has been amply discussed, was absurd.

[Laura F. Spira]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

A good thing there's no possibility of your ever needing to speak (for
instance) Dutch, Russian, Hebrew, or Arabic!

I have no difficulty with Hebrew, thank you.

Then either you have a really lousy accent, or you sound like a
particularly nasty old man whenever you say "friend" (/xa'ver/) (or any
other word beginning with Het).

My point referred to the combination of "ch" followed by "th". You've
snipped Paul's pronunciation suggestion, which I found difficult to
replicate.

I snipped absolutely nothing from your paragraph, and Paul's suggestion,
as has been amply discussed, was absurd.

Whether it was absurd or not, you removed Paul's suggestion which gave
the context for my comment. Since Jerry has explained it in words of one
syllable, I expect you can understand it now. Or perhaps you did
understand my comment in its context and just took the opportunity to be
sarcastic. Whatever.

[Matthew Huntbach]

I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can say
autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch" pronunciation
but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the "ch" makes you sound
as if you're clearing your throat (in that particularly nasty old-man manner
followed by spitting, which I think is called hawking).

Machynlleth in Wales always strikes me as a name that must have been
deliberately concocted for maximum unpronounciability.

Matthew Huntbach

[Percival P. Cassidy]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I
can say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think
is called hawking).

Machynlleth in Wales always strikes me as a name that must have been
deliberately concocted for maximum unpronounciability.

That's an easy one. What about

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

or

Gorsafawddachaidraigodanheddogleddollonpenrhynareurdraethceredigion?

Perce

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Percival P. Cassidy

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic - not that I ever have before - with the "loch"
pronunciation but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

Machynlleth in Wales always strikes me as a name that must have been
deliberately concocted for maximum unpronounciability.

That's an easy one. What about
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch?

Yes, but that's just obviously silly, and is well known just to be
a concoction (derived by pushing a whole sentence together) which was
never really used in everyday conversation. I'm told the locals just
call it "Llanfair", or if really necessary to distinguish it from other
Llanfairs, "Llanfairpwllgwyngyll".

The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an obvious "complicated
because long" name, but it contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes
stuck together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th". The Welsh
"y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue" (or u-umlaut), though I
understand this is more the case in north Welsh than south Welsh.
So the correct pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve clearing
the throat, making an expression of disgust, then spitting it out.

Matthew Huntbach

[Neeraj Mathur]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an obvious "complicated
because long" name, but it contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes
stuck together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th". The Welsh
"y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue" (or u-umlaut), though I
understand this is more the case in north Welsh than south Welsh.
So the correct pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve clearing
the throat, making an expression of disgust, then spitting it out.

Lol - lovely image!

But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
represents two sounds:

1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the particular Welsh dialect's
version of 'u'. Broadly speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i',
and in the North it's a really strange sound that I haven't really figured
out yet - I think it's high mid rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or
French 'u', though.

2) In any other syllable, and in a few common one-syllable nouns (including
the ubiquitous 'y') it's pronounced like the English 'a' in 'about' or the
'u' of 'bud'.

One of these is known as 'clear y' and the other as 'dark / obscure y', but
I've never managed to remember which is which (I think that the second is
the dark one, oddly enough).

In 'Machynlleth', it's the second of these that applies. The central
syllable, which carries the stress in this word, sounds not dissimilar to
English 'Hun'.

Of course, you can take the route my wonderful grandmother did - she lived
in Aberystwyth for more than twenty years, and she still calls it 'MACK in
Kleth' (with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th').

Neeraj Mathur

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an obvious "complicated
because long" name, but it contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes
stuck together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th". The Welsh
"y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue" (or u-umlaut), though I
understand this is more the case in north Welsh than south Welsh.
So the correct pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve clearing
the throat, making an expression of disgust, then spitting it out.

Lol - lovely image!
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the particular Welsh dialect's
version of 'u'. Broadly speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i',
and in the North it's a really strange sound that I haven't really figured
out yet - I think it's high mid rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or
French 'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should indicated a highish
front rounded lax vowel.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an
obvious "complicated because long" name, but it
contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes stuck
together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th".
The Welsh "y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue"
(or u-umlaut), though I understand this is more the
case in north Welsh than south Welsh. So the correct
pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve
clearing the throat, making an expression of disgust,
then spitting it out.

Lol - lovely image!
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the particular Welsh dialect's
version of 'u'. Broadly speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i',
and in the North it's a really strange sound that I haven't really figured
out yet - I think it's high mid rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or
French 'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should indicated a highish
front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

Brian

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an
obvious "complicated because long" name, but it
contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes stuck
together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th".
The Welsh "y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue"
(or u-umlaut), though I understand this is more the
case in north Welsh than south Welsh. So the correct
pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve
clearing the throat, making an expression of disgust,
then spitting it out.

Lol - lovely image!
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the particular Welsh dialect's
version of 'u'. Broadly speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i',
and in the North it's a really strange sound that I haven't really figured
out yet - I think it's high mid rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or
French 'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should indicated a highish
front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

The segment in question is a rounded one, so something based on <y>, not
<i>, is the relevant one.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:46:57 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

[...]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the
particular Welsh dialect's version of 'u'. Broadly
speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i', and
in the North it's a really strange sound that I
haven't really figured out yet - I think it's high mid
rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or French
'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should
indicated a highish front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

The segment in question is a rounded one, so something
based on <y>, not <i>, is the relevant one.

But *is* the segment rounded in the North? I've seen both
opinions on this, and I have no first-hand knowledge.

Brian

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:46:57 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

[...]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'.
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the
particular Welsh dialect's version of 'u'. Broadly
speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i', and
in the North it's a really strange sound that I
haven't really figured out yet - I think it's high mid
rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or French
'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should
indicated a highish front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

The segment in question is a rounded one, so something
based on <y>, not <i>, is the relevant one.

But *is* the segment rounded in the North? I've seen both
opinions on this, and I have no first-hand knowledge.
Brian

Yes, it is, sort of, with tongue back and jaw slack, as far as I can
tell. But you can't get there from here: you have to start off being
able to do a North-Walian accent, and who would want to do that?

[Arianrhod]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:46:57 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

[...]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'.
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the
particular Welsh dialect's version of 'u'. Broadly
speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i', and
in the North it's a really strange sound that I
haven't really figured out yet - I think it's high mid
rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or French
'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should
indicated a highish front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

The segment in question is a rounded one, so something
based on <y>, not <i>, is the relevant one.

But *is* the segment rounded in the North? I've seen both
opinions on this, and I have no first-hand knowledge.
Brian

Yes, it is, sort of, with tongue back and jaw slack, as far as I can
tell. But you can't get there from here: you have to start off being
able to do a North-Walian accent, and who would want to do that?

Now, now!! Plenty of us do!!

BTW someone was talking about the Llanfair with the long name in this
thread. Usually people just say Llanfair or Llanfair PG. One
well-known presenter on Radio Cymru refers to the place as Llanfair PG
Tips!

Good luck with your degree Neeraj. I remember the walk from Wadham down
to the exam schools to sit papers back in the seventies. Seems like
yesterday.....

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:46:57 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:30:36 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"

[...]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Brian M. Scott

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Neeraj Mathur
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the
particular Welsh dialect's version of 'u'. Broadly
speaking, in the South, this is identical to 'i', and
in the North it's a really strange sound that I
haven't really figured out yet - I think it's high mid
rounded. It's certainly not a German 'ue' or French
'u', though.

In WWS Eric Hamp uses IPA small cap Y, which should
indicated a highish front rounded lax vowel.

He uses barred-I when it's short, barred-i when it's long.

The segment in question is a rounded one, so something
based on <y>, not <i>, is the relevant one.

But *is* the segment rounded in the North? I've seen both
opinions on this, and I have no first-hand knowledge.

I refer not to what *is*, but to what is described above under (1).

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Neeraj Mathur
Of course, you can take the route my wonderful grandmother did - she lived
in Aberystwyth for more than twenty years, and she still calls it 'MACK in
Kleth' (with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th').

My late mother-in-law (who was Goian, so Indian when it suited her ...)
lived in Eltham (we now live in what was her house), which she slways
pronounced with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th'. Local pronunication
is "Elt-am", although of course being south-east London, the 'l' can
become pretty dark, and the 't' a glottal stop.

Matthew Huntbach

[me]

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by Neeraj Mathur
Of course, you can take the route my wonderful grandmother did - she
lived in Aberystwyth for more than twenty years, and she still calls it
'MACK in Kleth' (with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th').

My late mother-in-law (who was Goian, so Indian when it suited her ...)
lived in Eltham (we now live in what was her house), which she slways
pronounced with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th'. Local
pronunication is "Elt-am", although of course being south-east London, the
'l' can become pretty dark, and the 't' a glottal stop.

Would you call the <dh> in Badham a breathy voiced stop?

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach

[me]

Post by Neeraj Mathur

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an obvious "complicated
because long" name, but it contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes
stuck together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th". The Welsh
"y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue" (or u-umlaut), though I
understand this is more the case in north Welsh than south Welsh.
So the correct pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve clearing
the throat, making an expression of disgust, then spitting it out.

Lol - lovely image!
But your not quite correct about the pronunciation of Welsh 'y'. It
1) In final syllables, it is pronounced like the particular Welsh
dialect's version of 'u'. Broadly speaking, in the South, this is
identical to 'i', and in the North it's a really strange sound that I
haven't really figured out yet - I think it's high mid rounded. It's
certainly not a German 'ue' or French 'u', though.

From the description, it looks similar to a Japanese u (shitsu) and a
Malayalam sandhi u (pronunciation of terminal /u/ in a word followed by
another word).

Post by Neeraj Mathur
2) In any other syllable, and in a few common one-syllable nouns
(including the ubiquitous 'y') it's pronounced like the English 'a' in
'about' or the 'u' of 'bud'.
One of these is known as 'clear y' and the other as 'dark / obscure y',
but I've never managed to remember which is which (I think that the second
is the dark one, oddly enough).
In 'Machynlleth', it's the second of these that applies. The central
syllable, which carries the stress in this word, sounds not dissimilar to
English 'Hun'.
Of course, you can take the route my wonderful grandmother did - she lived
in Aberystwyth for more than twenty years, and she still calls it 'MACK in
Kleth' (with an Indian aspirated dental for the 'th').

How did she get [kl] rather than [sl],[fl] or [Tl]/[t<h>l]?

Post by Neeraj Mathur
Neeraj Mathur

[Nigel Greenwood]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
The thing about "Machynlleth" is that it's not an obvious "complicated
because long" name, but it contains all those difficult Welsh phonemes
stuck together with little else - "ch", "y", "ll" and "th". The Welsh
"y" is properly pronounced as the German "ue" (or u-umlaut), though I
understand this is more the case in north Welsh than south Welsh.
So the correct pronunciation of "Machynlleth" would seem to involve clearing
the throat, making an expression of disgust, then spitting it out.

While no Welsh expert, I had the impression that Welsh "y" was
something like RP English /V/: eg "Dullan" Thomas & "Duvvid" for the
county Dyfed. Am I wrong?

Nigel

--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

[Nigel Greenwood]

Post by Laura F. Spira
I've just had a little practice (to the consternation of the cat). I can
say autochthonic

Bless you! (That's British for gesundheit!).

Post by Laura F. Spira
but chthonic is very difficult because starting with the
"ch" makes you sound as if you're clearing your throat (in that
particularly nasty old-man manner followed by spitting, which I think is
called hawking).

As performed by the chronically phthitic.

Post by Laura F. Spira
I think it has to be k-thonic for me,

Remember those up-market Superman comics (Hyperman)? I think there
must have been a "Ch-thonic!!!" sound effect in place of the more
demotic "Ker-thonk!!".

Nigel

--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

[Harlan Messinger]

Post by Paul Wolff

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed to
Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED gives it
as pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming the
ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation.

Why? Do you use the "loch" pronunciation for "chaos" and "chromosome"?

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Harlan Messinger

Post by Paul Wolff

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed
to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED gives
it as pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming
the ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation.

Why? Do you use the "loch" pronunciation for "chaos" and "chromosome"?

Why? Because. Chaos and chromosome are assimilated, while chthonic
still looks fancy foreign. Perhaps the softness comes from all those
aitches, and a soft phthalic association.

[Harlan Messinger]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Harlan Messinger

Post by Paul Wolff

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed
to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED
gives it as pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does
so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming
the ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation.

Why? Do you use the "loch" pronunciation for "chaos" and "chromosome"?

Why? Because. Chaos and chromosome are assimilated, while chthonic
still looks fancy foreign.

The usual pronunciation of Greek "ch", in new terms as well as old ones,
scientific or otherwise, "fancy" or otherwise, is /k/.

Post by Paul Wolff
Perhaps the softness comes from all those
aitches, and a soft phthalic association.

[Harlan Messinger]

Post by Harlan Messinger
The usual pronunciation of Greek "ch", in new terms as well as old ones,
scientific or otherwise, "fancy" or otherwise, is /k/.

If it's pronounced at all, of course, since part of this discussion is
about initial "chth", with initial "phth" as its corollary.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Harlan Messinger

Post by Paul Wolff

I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations of the
word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the English (as opposed
to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or leave it silent. (The OED gives
it as pronounced; no other dictionary that I've checked does so.)

It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing. I'd pronounce it in full, assuming
the ch to represent the Greek chi and to have the Scottish loch
pronunciation.

Why? Do you use the "loch" pronunciation for "chaos" and "chromosome"?

Took me long enough to realise that German "Chemie" (chemistry) is
pronounced with a k and not a ch.

[Nigel Greenwood]

Post by Paul Wolff
It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing.

It comes in one of Eliot's poems, for instance. (Pause for quick
google ...) Yes, there it is: it's in The Dry Salvages: you know, the
one preceded by this wonderfully donnish note:

(The Dry Salvages-presumably les trois sauvages-is a small
group of rocks, with a beacon, off the N.E. coast of Cape Ann,
Massachusetts. Salvages is pronounced to rhyme with assuages.)

The relevant passage is:

Driven by daemonic, chthonic
Powers ...

I think I may have a recording of Eliot reading the poem, & I suppose
it may be of interest to see how the old boy himself pronounced
"chthonic". I'll see if I can find the LP.

Nigel

--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
Greek/IPA/Persian/Russian/Turkish):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

[benlizross]

Post by Nigel Greenwood

Post by Paul Wolff
It's one of those words that we are more likely to have learned by
reading rather than by hearing.

It comes in one of Eliot's poems, for instance. (Pause for quick
google ...) Yes, there it is: it's in The Dry Salvages: you know, the
(The Dry Salvages-presumably les trois sauvages-is a small
group of rocks, with a beacon, off the N.E. coast of Cape Ann,
Massachusetts. Salvages is pronounced to rhyme with assuages.)
Driven by daemonic, chthonic
Powers ...
I think I may have a recording of Eliot reading the poem, & I suppose
it may be of interest to see how the old boy himself pronounced
"chthonic". I'll see if I can find the LP.
Nigel
--
ScriptMaster language resources (Chinese/Modern & Classical
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk

Tricky bastard put it right after a /k/, so it may be difficult to tell.

Ross Clark

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Paul Wolff
I doubt if I've ever written or spoken chthonic in earnest, though I
have used autochthonic, because I like it and it's useful.

I was going to ask how it differed from "autochthonous", but I see
that the OED lists both, as well as "autochthonal". (MWCD11 lists
only "autochthonous", which is the form I learned.) "Autochthonous"
is cited to 1805, "autochthonal" to 1829, and "autochtonic" to 1845.
"Autochthonic" has primary stress on the third syllable, the other two
on the second.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |You cannot solve problems with the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |same type of thinking that created
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |them.
| Albert Einstein
***@hpl.hp.com
[phone]

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Alan Jones]

Post by Dan Clore
I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations
of the word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the
English (as opposed to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or
leave it silent. (The OED gives it as pronounced; no other
dictionary that I've checked does so.)

So does NSOED, which may be more up-to-date than the edition of OED you
consulted. My other British desk dictionaries (Chambers and Collins) give it
with silent ch-. I've never spoken and don't recall ever hearing the word.
Omission would seem to follow a traditional "rule", since other
Greek-derived words leave the first of double consonants silent: phthisis,
psychic and so forth.

[Seán O'Leathlóbhair]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Dan Clore
I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations
of the word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the
English (as opposed to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or
leave it silent. (The OED gives it as pronounced; no other
dictionary that I've checked does so.)

So does NSOED, which may be more up-to-date than the edition of OED you
consulted. My other British desk dictionaries (Chambers and Collins) give it
with silent ch-. I've never spoken and don't recall ever hearing the word.
Omission would seem to follow a traditional "rule", since other
Greek-derived words leave the first of double consonants silent: phthisis,
psychic and so forth.

I would also expect the ch to be silent. This seems to be the usual
rule with awkward initial consonant combinations e.g. psychology,
pneumatic, agnostic, knowledge. The ch would come to life in
autochthonic but that is no more inconsistent than the g in gnostic /
agnostic or the k in knowledge / acknowledge.

I don't recall ever saying chthonic but I have used phthalic and I
don't sound the ph. Like the other examples, it comes back to life in
naphthalene.

My favourite online dictionary http://dictionary.cambridge.org/ is
silent on most of these words.

I am British with a southern accent.

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I don't recall ever saying chthonic but I have used phthalic and I
don't sound the ph. Like the other examples, it comes back to life in
naphthalene.

I do 'em all in phthalic, terephthalic, phenolphthalein; but I think I
do a hard p in naphthalene, or else just say mothballs to it.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I don't recall ever saying chthonic but I have used phthalic and I
don't sound the ph. Like the other examples, it comes back to life in
naphthalene.

I do 'em all in phthalic, terephthalic, phenolphthalein; but I think I
do a hard p in naphthalene, or else just say mothballs to it.

Likewise. I think I was surprised when I first realised that naphthalene
had an h after the p.

[annandale]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I don't recall ever saying chthonic but I have used phthalic and I
don't sound the ph. Like the other examples, it comes back to life in
naphthalene.

I do 'em all in phthalic, terephthalic, phenolphthalein; but I think I
do a hard p in naphthalene, or else just say mothballs to it.

Likewise. I think I was surprised when I first realised that naphthalene
had an h after the p.

I have even heard a hard p in diphtheria!

[Robert Bannister]

Post by annandale

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Seán O'Leathlóbhair
I don't recall ever saying chthonic but I have used phthalic and I
don't sound the ph. Like the other examples, it comes back to life in
naphthalene.

I do 'em all in phthalic, terephthalic, phenolphthalein; but I think I
do a hard p in naphthalene, or else just say mothballs to it.

Likewise. I think I was surprised when I first realised that naphthalene
had an h after the p.

I have even heard a hard p in diphtheria!

I've never heard it any other way.

[Skraedder]

Post by annandale
I have even heard a hard p in diphtheria!

That must be pretty standard pronunciation in southern England, or was in my
yoof. For me it had a hard p until I heard a teacher pronounce it as
difteria.

Skraedder

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Skraedder

Post by annandale
I have even heard a hard p in diphtheria!

That must be pretty standard pronunciation in southern England, or was in my
yoof. For me it had a hard p until I heard a teacher pronounce it as
difteria.

Out of one frying pan, into the other.

[u***@yahoo.com]

Post by Dan Clore
I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations
of the word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the
English (as opposed to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or
leave it silent. (The OED gives it as pronounced; no other
dictionary that I've checked does so.)

Just ingnore the ch.


kuh-thonic.

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Dan Clore
I would appreciate any information on varying pronunciations
of the word "chthonic". The issue concerns whether the
English (as opposed to Americans) pronounce the "ch-" or
leave it silent. (The OED gives it as pronounced; no other
dictionary that I've checked does so.)

I'm with the people who say to make the "ch-" silent, as usual when
English words from Greek start with consonant combinations that don't
occur in English. However, pronouncing it as a "k" goes better with
"Cthulhu", if it's relevant.

I admit to pronouncing the first "m" in "mnemonic", but that's probably
wrong in some sense.

Next week: the pronunciation of "pshent".

--
Jerry Friedman thinks all of this but the first sentence is too
frivolous for sci.lang.